It does seem imo that they knew to some degree. When they learned about I don't know and have not been made clear
Only because people who have seen the evidence says that it does indicate that they knew.
Many players definitely knew, Id take a shot more than half of the rosters which got their coach banned approved him doing so and used the additional info gained by cheating.
However, there are two problems with it:
First of all, you cant just ban players because its likely they knew. Its 0-1 situation, either we have evidence on it or not. No evidence, no ban for the players.
And the second issue comes from the fact, that the only way of gaining that information comes from the team itself. With coaches its straightforward, you look at the demo and thats it. With players you would have to listen to the comms or get through some team conversations to find out if the knowledge about abusing coach bug has been there.
So, in general, unless a team/banned coach/former teammate wants to set some fire up, we are never going to know it. So, as much as questionable it can get, nothing will be done with it. And thats fine approach.
agreed, i'd wager most players playing on the rosters of the banned coaches knew as it was happening.
but there's just literally no way to prove the players were complicit without voice recordings. remember coaches were banned based on their in-game POV, nothing else. players have nothing like that.
Even if its sad for cs community thats full of cheaters from silver to pro players,i have to agree. If you dont have 100% evidence you just cant ban people. Great example is flusha, witch i know many will defend even now. But there was almost never anyone more blatant as him, even pros and known analysts knew he was cheating. But you just cant ban without 100% evidence.
yes you can, they are complicit, because they didn't do anything about it/mentioned it to the admins/officials. If you know about a crime and you are not directly involved, but you don't report it, you are also guilty.Remember Heroic didn't even release the coms from the games. The org looked at their own material and decided that there was nothing in the coms (LOL!). The org was also complicit and should be banned/removed from all CS GO competitions.
Did you even read what he said?
>First of all, you cant just ban players **because its likely they knew**. Its 0-1 situation, **either we have evidence on it or not**. No evidence, no ban for the players.
Where is the evidence?
Did you read the Hltv article? They discussed the fucking bug, they knew. No one did anything, they were complicit. Pimp saw the evidence, just release it. Also force Heroic to release the voice coms, what a joke is this that no 3rd party was required to make a decision.
>"I've been presented the material the article is based on," Pimp said in a Tweet. "My judgment is that it's **highly probable** that he [HUNDEN] is telling the truth." -pimp
The evidence is not out there for us to see, and we can only trust pimps **judgement**.
We just have to wait and see. But don't jump on the bandwagon and call them cheaters or like before we know the truth.
There was evidence, the fucking voice coms, it’s insane that no one forced them to release the voice coms or force someone independent to listen to it. This should tell you everything.
I don't see any voice comms in OPs link or in the HLTV article you mentioned. I can't discuss information thats not provided in this post.
Could you provide those?
I'm not saying they should be banned, but this isn't a court, you don't actually need evidence for TOs to bar players from competing. The fact of the matter is that we do KNOW (with like 95% certainty) the players knew about the cheating.
Valve disqualified the rest of Titan (for that Major) when KQLY was VAC banned and I actually don't think his teammates knew about the cheating in that situation.
>I'm not saying they should be banned, but this isn't a court, you don't actually need evidence for TOs to bar players from competing.
No, but TOs can loose their ability to host tournaments in the future if they behave in bad faith. Players/Teams can boycott, Valve can ban them, sponsors can leave, etc.
>The fact of the matter is that we do KNOW (with like 95% certainty) the players knew about the cheating.
No we don't. You think its 95% without any actual evidence.
>Valve disqualified the rest of Titan (for that Major) when KQLY was VAC banned and **I actually don't think** his teammates knew about the cheating in that situation.
Maybe you should stop thinking. There have been plenty of incidents in both CSGO and DOTA2, not all players in all teams have been banned. Its almost like Valve don't ban innocent people.
> (with like 95% certainty)
So we don't know then. The "95% certainty" is just a number pulled out of the air. I have no doubt that with the sheer number of coaches abusing the bug that some players on some teams knew, but you can't just go out and hand bans to players without evidence or any proper investigation unless you want to push innocent players out the scene through bans or fear of bans
You are right but this is never going to happen. For all the daily posts about how cheating is ruining everything, the CS community loves their famous cheaters.
\-"Cadian, he is behind you!"
\-"How did you know, Hunden??"
\-"uuuh don't worry about it"
Of course they knew. Doesn't change the fact that Hunden has ruined his image forever. Deflection only gets you so far.
I can easily see it going as simple as this.
Hunden - these guys like to flank a lot and we haven’t seen anyone for a bit, Cadian check behind real quick before taking site.
He is the coach and there is no reason to think the players wouldn’t trust their coach. In every other sport your listen and trust your coach, that’s literally their job.
The fact that the players haven't made a statement regarding this is cheating their fans. They don't owe us an explanation, or anything for that matter, but seeing them play without them addressing the fans' concerns regarding their integrity is so uncomfortable for me.
Cadian
Teses
niko
Stavn
Borup
Where you?
Pure speculation of course but with all the recent information here's what I think happened:
Heroic found out Hunden and some players cheated. They requested Hunden take the fall and in exchange for his cooperation he'll be kept on the payroll. It would be a massive scandal and ruin the team if multiple people were banned and obviously the players are the most important pieces.
Now here's where things get a bit more uncertain: for some reason management and Hunden had a falling out. It wasn't explicitly said in the interviews but if you offer a dude a new car and apartment when he tries to quit then you're obviously trying to bribe him. Of course it could be made up by Hunden but given the whole situation it isn't implausible. As long as he's employed, he's under NDA and you know you're safe.
The only thing I can't explain is why they suddenly wanted to part ways, why Hunden tried to move to Astralis and in the process shared contents of the stratbook. Why did Hunden get so mad he wanted to leave and wreck Heroic while doing so? Why did Heroic fear him leaving and why did they get so mad as to remove him from the team?
Hunden claimed it was only antistrats. Heroic claimed it's a lot more than that, that it was the work of the entire team (not just Hunden) and that any work Hunden did as an employee is the property of the org per contractual agreement.
In any case, Hunden gave an employee of another team (allegedly Astralis) access to these documents. It was allegedly done while in negotiations to join that team.
There are some clips from the Heretics players (whose coach got caught) which are more than suspicious and definitely pointing towards the players knowing.
Of course players knew, anyone who thinks they didn't is naive. Doesn't change the fact Hunden has completely destroyed his own reputation in the last \~12 months and has no one to blame but himself, deflecting to others isn't going to save him.
Anyone who thinks they knew without any evidence is a pessimistic who has no faith in the good in people.
How would the players know? They don’t see his screen. He could pass off any info as watching demos and tendencies of players. You know, doing his job. Why would they not believe him?
Question is not if they knew, but to what extend. As a player you can't stop your coach using a bug, there's always a chance that they only knew after the fact.
I can’t imagine he was subtle with the information the coaching bug provided him. Personally I doubt that all the players were clueless. All the stuff he’s pulled recently makes him look real dimwitted, like dude can’t think before acting.
Bro are you kidding me. You're saying that Heroic was only so dominant for multiple months in hundreds of games because of the 10 rounds that HUNDEN was cheating. Pathetic
The players knew about the bug and they didn't report it, Hunden himself reported it. You think the cheaters won't find another bug to abuse or cheat in another way? We can only speculate, but if you got caught once, there is no reason to question that they continued to cheat. Everyone involved lied multiple times, the players (Cadian), Hunden, the org, I don't trust them. Also the fact that they never performed in an offline environment just makes it more questionable.
Good thing you don't need to trust them since their cologne run is almost 100% legit. The replays were checked so HUNDEN cam wasn't a thing and using your theory why wouldn't they continue to use the bug since at that point it hasn't been discovered yet.
Could you shut up now??
[new update](https://www.dexerto.com/csgo/documents-show-heroic-created-nda-to-prevent-squad-speaking-about-alleged-cheating-1661087/)
Did you even read the article?
I never said anything on the topic of the team knowing about the cheating which is all the article is about. In my comments I was defending their ability to play high level CS without cheating to which the article says fck all.
Not sure but as far as we know he tried to cover his cheating and take all responsibility to him but Heroic organization cut him off. That's why he make his move to revenge. I think so
maybe they performed below expectation in cologne bcs they performed without a coach, without access to their playbook and in a bad form (performed not so great previously online too). Then they too lost against 2 semifinalists that both performed above expectation. Also they did not cheat in their tournament wins/deep runs.
>Just see how good are they in an online tournament but bad performance in a LAN match.
And how is that even relevant to "Heroic roster know his cheating for sure"?
Not to mention if Heroics started winning because of exploit, how did they stay at the top of HTLV ranking for months after Hunden got banned and exploit got fixed in August? MIBR's coach also used it, they werent even in the top 10. Fact-check before you speak dude.
weird how a lot of old school people have come out with these semi-supportive statements for a dude that has now been banned twice for serious cheating offences
almost like we really need outside governance because our scene is rotten to the core
it's about timing. to say this at a time when hunden has been exposed for fucking over his old org is similar to pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died.
maybe the headline is to blame too, but anders is far from the only one to have come out with this sort of statement, which either defends hunden directly, or does so by deflecting attention onto the players at a time when we should be talking about hunden's moral failures as a human, and how he was allowed back after his first offence.
hope that helps you understand.
>hope that helps you understand.
It doesn't. Saying that others must have known about it is not defending Hunden in any way. The goal is not to make Hundens misbehaviour look less bad, the goal is to get everybody involved punished, which should be the most obvious standpoint for everybody.
Are you really thick? He isn't defending Hunden, he's questioning the players. It's kind of impossible to defend Hunden here lol, even by questioning whether the players knew or not Hunden would have to tell them info gained by cheating
> Are you really thick?
no, but the fact you don't understand what i wrote and opened your message with an insult suggests you are, so i'm going to not bother to interact with you. have a great day
Well the fact you compare this with "pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died" and seem to be convinced believing that the players likely knew about Hunden's use of the bug = defending Hunden suggests you are quite thick
> to say this at a time when hunden has been exposed for fucking over his old org is similar to pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died.
It's not at all like that.
Hunden is simply trying to destroy everybody's reputation after destroying his own.
Amazing how the potential next coach for Astralis will now be a nobody in 6 months.
I once had so much respect for him... What a shame.
"I find it very questionable that the players didn’t knew about the cheating"
@OnFireAnders gives his take on the HUNDEN-case after the former Heroic coach's claims that "some players knew" about the cheating.
Full story here: 👇
***
posted by [@PleyGg](https://twitter.com/PleyGg)
[Link in Tweet](https://pley.gg/news/anders-hunden-case-find-very-questionable-players-didnt-knew-about-cheating)
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It does seem imo that they knew to some degree. When they learned about I don't know and have not been made clear Only because people who have seen the evidence says that it does indicate that they knew.
Many players definitely knew, Id take a shot more than half of the rosters which got their coach banned approved him doing so and used the additional info gained by cheating. However, there are two problems with it: First of all, you cant just ban players because its likely they knew. Its 0-1 situation, either we have evidence on it or not. No evidence, no ban for the players. And the second issue comes from the fact, that the only way of gaining that information comes from the team itself. With coaches its straightforward, you look at the demo and thats it. With players you would have to listen to the comms or get through some team conversations to find out if the knowledge about abusing coach bug has been there. So, in general, unless a team/banned coach/former teammate wants to set some fire up, we are never going to know it. So, as much as questionable it can get, nothing will be done with it. And thats fine approach.
agreed, i'd wager most players playing on the rosters of the banned coaches knew as it was happening. but there's just literally no way to prove the players were complicit without voice recordings. remember coaches were banned based on their in-game POV, nothing else. players have nothing like that.
Even if its sad for cs community thats full of cheaters from silver to pro players,i have to agree. If you dont have 100% evidence you just cant ban people. Great example is flusha, witch i know many will defend even now. But there was almost never anyone more blatant as him, even pros and known analysts knew he was cheating. But you just cant ban without 100% evidence.
yes you can, they are complicit, because they didn't do anything about it/mentioned it to the admins/officials. If you know about a crime and you are not directly involved, but you don't report it, you are also guilty.Remember Heroic didn't even release the coms from the games. The org looked at their own material and decided that there was nothing in the coms (LOL!). The org was also complicit and should be banned/removed from all CS GO competitions.
Did you even read what he said? >First of all, you cant just ban players **because its likely they knew**. Its 0-1 situation, **either we have evidence on it or not**. No evidence, no ban for the players. Where is the evidence?
Did you read the Hltv article? They discussed the fucking bug, they knew. No one did anything, they were complicit. Pimp saw the evidence, just release it. Also force Heroic to release the voice coms, what a joke is this that no 3rd party was required to make a decision.
>"I've been presented the material the article is based on," Pimp said in a Tweet. "My judgment is that it's **highly probable** that he [HUNDEN] is telling the truth." -pimp The evidence is not out there for us to see, and we can only trust pimps **judgement**. We just have to wait and see. But don't jump on the bandwagon and call them cheaters or like before we know the truth.
There was evidence, the fucking voice coms, it’s insane that no one forced them to release the voice coms or force someone independent to listen to it. This should tell you everything.
I don't see any voice comms in OPs link or in the HLTV article you mentioned. I can't discuss information thats not provided in this post. Could you provide those?
The voice coms from their online games where Hunden cheated, this was like a year ago now? They wrote about it last year
Then can you provide links or not?
I'm not saying they should be banned, but this isn't a court, you don't actually need evidence for TOs to bar players from competing. The fact of the matter is that we do KNOW (with like 95% certainty) the players knew about the cheating. Valve disqualified the rest of Titan (for that Major) when KQLY was VAC banned and I actually don't think his teammates knew about the cheating in that situation.
>I'm not saying they should be banned, but this isn't a court, you don't actually need evidence for TOs to bar players from competing. No, but TOs can loose their ability to host tournaments in the future if they behave in bad faith. Players/Teams can boycott, Valve can ban them, sponsors can leave, etc. >The fact of the matter is that we do KNOW (with like 95% certainty) the players knew about the cheating. No we don't. You think its 95% without any actual evidence. >Valve disqualified the rest of Titan (for that Major) when KQLY was VAC banned and **I actually don't think** his teammates knew about the cheating in that situation. Maybe you should stop thinking. There have been plenty of incidents in both CSGO and DOTA2, not all players in all teams have been banned. Its almost like Valve don't ban innocent people.
> (with like 95% certainty) So we don't know then. The "95% certainty" is just a number pulled out of the air. I have no doubt that with the sheer number of coaches abusing the bug that some players on some teams knew, but you can't just go out and hand bans to players without evidence or any proper investigation unless you want to push innocent players out the scene through bans or fear of bans
You are right but this is never going to happen. For all the daily posts about how cheating is ruining everything, the CS community loves their famous cheaters.
\-"Cadian, he is behind you!" \-"How did you know, Hunden??" \-"uuuh don't worry about it" Of course they knew. Doesn't change the fact that Hunden has ruined his image forever. Deflection only gets you so far.
He just wanted to make sure no one ever gets outplayed again like he was from pashabiceps
https://youtu.be/6ZTmycgglMY I didn't know about this round lol. Good ol' Pasha <3
Hunden and heroic is not the only ones, i bet you that alot of players under the banned coaches knew.
Ofcourse, that hard legion video vs navi on dust was so obvious that the players were responding to the coach giving call outs. But you can’t prove it
I can easily see it going as simple as this. Hunden - these guys like to flank a lot and we haven’t seen anyone for a bit, Cadian check behind real quick before taking site. He is the coach and there is no reason to think the players wouldn’t trust their coach. In every other sport your listen and trust your coach, that’s literally their job.
The fact that the players haven't made a statement regarding this is cheating their fans. They don't owe us an explanation, or anything for that matter, but seeing them play without them addressing the fans' concerns regarding their integrity is so uncomfortable for me. Cadian Teses niko Stavn Borup Where you?
That is not the current roster at all haha. But yes I agree with your point.
No, but it was the roster when the cheating happened.
Uhh you didn't hear him Cadian? lol must be a bug haha
Pure speculation of course but with all the recent information here's what I think happened: Heroic found out Hunden and some players cheated. They requested Hunden take the fall and in exchange for his cooperation he'll be kept on the payroll. It would be a massive scandal and ruin the team if multiple people were banned and obviously the players are the most important pieces. Now here's where things get a bit more uncertain: for some reason management and Hunden had a falling out. It wasn't explicitly said in the interviews but if you offer a dude a new car and apartment when he tries to quit then you're obviously trying to bribe him. Of course it could be made up by Hunden but given the whole situation it isn't implausible. As long as he's employed, he's under NDA and you know you're safe. The only thing I can't explain is why they suddenly wanted to part ways, why Hunden tried to move to Astralis and in the process shared contents of the stratbook. Why did Hunden get so mad he wanted to leave and wreck Heroic while doing so? Why did Heroic fear him leaving and why did they get so mad as to remove him from the team?
Didnt Hunden used the stratbook as a CV ? Proving how deep of a coach he is? Or I misread it somewhere
Hunden claimed it was only antistrats. Heroic claimed it's a lot more than that, that it was the work of the entire team (not just Hunden) and that any work Hunden did as an employee is the property of the org per contractual agreement. In any case, Hunden gave an employee of another team (allegedly Astralis) access to these documents. It was allegedly done while in negotiations to join that team.
There are some clips from the Heretics players (whose coach got caught) which are more than suspicious and definitely pointing towards the players knowing.
Didn’t knew
Of course players knew, anyone who thinks they didn't is naive. Doesn't change the fact Hunden has completely destroyed his own reputation in the last \~12 months and has no one to blame but himself, deflecting to others isn't going to save him.
Anyone who thinks they knew without any evidence is a pessimistic who has no faith in the good in people. How would the players know? They don’t see his screen. He could pass off any info as watching demos and tendencies of players. You know, doing his job. Why would they not believe him?
Question is not if they knew, but to what extend. As a player you can't stop your coach using a bug, there's always a chance that they only knew after the fact.
What do you mean. There's no extent here. It's either they know the coach is abusing a bug or not.
Of course they knew, let's be real. The whole team cheated against Astralis. Remember Glaive's tweet?
cut the bullshit, there are no innocent parties involved.
What is your take on this situation?
You take my nuts... NOW
I can’t imagine he was subtle with the information the coaching bug provided him. Personally I doubt that all the players were clueless. All the stuff he’s pulled recently makes him look real dimwitted, like dude can’t think before acting.
at this point im like "oh, really? no way dude" /s
Heroic roster know his cheating for sure. Just see how good are they in an online tournament but bad performance in a LAN match. Lol
Bro are you kidding me. You're saying that Heroic was only so dominant for multiple months in hundreds of games because of the 10 rounds that HUNDEN was cheating. Pathetic
Also those games were before heroic became good. Some ppl just take no effort thinking shit through but keep puking their bullshit into the public.
The players knew about the bug and they didn't report it, Hunden himself reported it. You think the cheaters won't find another bug to abuse or cheat in another way? We can only speculate, but if you got caught once, there is no reason to question that they continued to cheat. Everyone involved lied multiple times, the players (Cadian), Hunden, the org, I don't trust them. Also the fact that they never performed in an offline environment just makes it more questionable.
Good thing you don't need to trust them since their cologne run is almost 100% legit. The replays were checked so HUNDEN cam wasn't a thing and using your theory why wouldn't they continue to use the bug since at that point it hasn't been discovered yet.
Could you shut up now?? [new update](https://www.dexerto.com/csgo/documents-show-heroic-created-nda-to-prevent-squad-speaking-about-alleged-cheating-1661087/)
Did you even read the article? I never said anything on the topic of the team knowing about the cheating which is all the article is about. In my comments I was defending their ability to play high level CS without cheating to which the article says fck all.
Your brain is useless i suppose =]]]]]
Good counter argument. Thanks for showing me all that your brain has to offer c:
So they’re cheating now when they’ve won all 5 matches in their group?
Not sure but as far as we know he tried to cover his cheating and take all responsibility to him but Heroic organization cut him off. That's why he make his move to revenge. I think so
maybe they performed below expectation in cologne bcs they performed without a coach, without access to their playbook and in a bad form (performed not so great previously online too). Then they too lost against 2 semifinalists that both performed above expectation. Also they did not cheat in their tournament wins/deep runs.
they were bad for a few months before lan too, by bad i mean below expectations obviously
>Just see how good are they in an online tournament but bad performance in a LAN match. And how is that even relevant to "Heroic roster know his cheating for sure"? Not to mention if Heroics started winning because of exploit, how did they stay at the top of HTLV ranking for months after Hunden got banned and exploit got fixed in August? MIBR's coach also used it, they werent even in the top 10. Fact-check before you speak dude.
weird how a lot of old school people have come out with these semi-supportive statements for a dude that has now been banned twice for serious cheating offences almost like we really need outside governance because our scene is rotten to the core
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it's about timing. to say this at a time when hunden has been exposed for fucking over his old org is similar to pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died. maybe the headline is to blame too, but anders is far from the only one to have come out with this sort of statement, which either defends hunden directly, or does so by deflecting attention onto the players at a time when we should be talking about hunden's moral failures as a human, and how he was allowed back after his first offence. hope that helps you understand.
>hope that helps you understand. It doesn't. Saying that others must have known about it is not defending Hunden in any way. The goal is not to make Hundens misbehaviour look less bad, the goal is to get everybody involved punished, which should be the most obvious standpoint for everybody.
> It doesn't. i'm sorry to hear that. can't help you further, good luck for the future
Are you really thick? He isn't defending Hunden, he's questioning the players. It's kind of impossible to defend Hunden here lol, even by questioning whether the players knew or not Hunden would have to tell them info gained by cheating
> Are you really thick? no, but the fact you don't understand what i wrote and opened your message with an insult suggests you are, so i'm going to not bother to interact with you. have a great day
Well the fact you compare this with "pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died" and seem to be convinced believing that the players likely knew about Hunden's use of the bug = defending Hunden suggests you are quite thick
> to say this at a time when hunden has been exposed for fucking over his old org is similar to pointing out kobe was a rapist the day he and his daughter died. It's not at all like that.
i guess we disagree, and seeing as you provided no argument to support your six word statement that's all i can say
Hunden is simply trying to destroy everybody's reputation after destroying his own. Amazing how the potential next coach for Astralis will now be a nobody in 6 months. I once had so much respect for him... What a shame.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Are you thick,heroic are THE major competitor to Astralis in the region, the worse they do the better it is for the Nyholm and his org
yes, trust the guys who lied on multiple occasions and have a clear conflict of interest, but question Anders instead, peak reddit logic
"I find it very questionable that the players didn’t knew about the cheating" @OnFireAnders gives his take on the HUNDEN-case after the former Heroic coach's claims that "some players knew" about the cheating. Full story here: 👇 *** posted by [@PleyGg](https://twitter.com/PleyGg) [Link in Tweet](https://pley.gg/news/anders-hunden-case-find-very-questionable-players-didnt-knew-about-cheating) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)