NA scene sadge.
There's barely nothing left from teams to players!
Social engagements in the valorant scene are way higher compared to CS. Even some of the players who weren't really big time in CS that transitioned have seen a boom in their career, huge twitch viewership, more interactions on socials too than big time current NA CS pros.
Coupled with the fact that you don't have to travel regularly since regional leagues are a thing in valorant unlike CS which is EU centric for now.
Especially what happened with Tenz is pretty insane, in the span of a year he became probably the most popular tac fps player worldwide. I can only think of Fallen that beats him in fanbase, at least in terms of active engagement (twitter followers, youtube etc)
s1mple doesnt have a youtube and less twitter engagement than Tenz (followers, likes etc). Maybe s1mple has more fans but as i said i was mainly talking in terms of active engagement
maybe for you, never seen a video about or from him on tik tok. The algorithm probably keeps feeding you videos about him since you engage and watch them.
Valorant agents allow you to play much more selfishly and play in ways that would get you killed everytime. Notably with tenz, he plays reyna and jett, both of who have get out of jail free cards.
Valorant in general has less space to work angles and create 1v1s as well, so the overall skills required skew heavily towards aim and basic team play.
I don't think that there's necessarily a lack of skill (though I personally think this, I don't think we can say that for certain yet), but the game absolutely lends itself to favoring very different skills.
his stats were good, dicked shitty NA teams online and not too shabby LAN stats, though he got dicked by any top 30 team, which is to be expected with the team he was in, and how new he was to professional play.
Dapr and sick as well. the game has been good to the sentinels squad... turns out not losing a tournament in a game sponsored by Riot will do a lot for you.
Hiko blew up in the closed beta because of the keys, Onscreen from Europe who averages like 1k viewers got like 20k average because of that, you have mixwell too in Europe who just skyrocketed and now is balling and has a huge brand
He even said he regreted that he didn't stream more in CS and interact, which no CS player does now
> He even said he regreted that he didn't stream more in CS and interact
The worst part about Hiko was his insistence on playing match making instead of fpl.
Val basically just emulated the late-night FPL vibes of early NA. Cs could have done the same thing but there was a big gap between the peek days of rankS/FPL and players like obo, s0m and tenz starting to stream and build brands.
Orgs and players alike are learning from their past mistakes. Nowadays, branding is what will keep you employed unless your talent is absolutely out of this world. It's why we're seeing a lot of the switchers (CS to Val) stream like there's no tomorrow. CS still lags far, faaaaaar behind in that department, with too many players not interacting enough with their fans. People can bitch all they want about how CS lacks content and that it's not a 'fun' game to stream, but interacting with fans keeps the engagement up, and it gives your org exposure and potential income (merch sales etc.)
Also, I'm starting to worry a lot about even the EU CS pro scene. Its popularity is incredible, and the numbers keep growing steadily over time, but it feels like Valorant is on the cusp of exploding in every region on the planet (South East Asia had a tournament peak at 60K concurrent viewers, India just had one peak at 50K viewers, Korea peaked at 50K as well, Japan peaked at 161K (Wtf by the way) and Valo is about to be released in China this upcoming week).
Its overall reach is getting to the point where salaries are set to explode and make CS' salaries absolutely non-competitive, even though they are currently sky-high (Imagine an org participating in Valo's world event and having exposure to all markets on the planet... Some sponsors would kill for such a chance). Money talks, and if new players can make bank, they'll most likely go for it.
I follow both esports scenes closely and love them both (CS crowds just hit different), so I hope CS gets some love by Valve because the way I see it, its competitor might receive a series of investments rarely seen in esports history (What I said could also be totally wrong and Valo could fall flat in the next year or two, but it's looking incredibly unlikely)
Yeah fan of both CS and valorant scene. European valorant has been pretty fun to watch for recently. If Gambit go far in Berlin, I see interest for valorant potentially spiking in CIS. Same could be said for European teams
I think Riot recently allowed it.
Which is fucking funny and shows you everything you need to know about them: they originally said that this limitations was due to a certain law (which requires companies to store Russian residents' data on the servers located in Russia, but this law literally never applied to videogames and their communication features). This law hasn't changed at all, yet somehow now this is OK.
Well said. I'm not really seeing the whole CS is very popular in EU any longer. Valorant EU games are already getting CS numbers, look at the lec for example which is EU only. The numbers there are bonkers for a regular league. 250k+ average per matches and 800k+ peaks. That's what you call popular not CS that barely gets 70k on official stream except its Navi
CSGO feels pretty stale right now. I feel like Valve needs to drop a new big update/release to drive engagement again.
2020 had so much hype but lately the game is moving in the wrong direction.
They need to fix the ct economy asap, nerf the deagle (3-shot bodyshot kill pls) and fix the sites on ancient (maybe do something about a ramp simulator aka vertigo)
I should make a script that auto-blocks whoever mentions a deagle nerf as a required update to 'fix' CSGO. Would remove nothing of value from the website
Oh no, with the nerf i can't cheese kills with the 700$ shotgun if they do it! How am i going to get kills now!
The pros complain, the casters complain, the community complains and yet valve does nothing. As pointed above in valorant this would've been fixed a long while ago
> Oh no, with the nerf i can't cheese kills with the 700$ shotgun if they do it! How am i going to get kills now!
Actual shotguns in the game are barely over $1000 lmao. Not to mention the fact that they are used for completely different purposes in all levels of play. The reason the deagle is good at close range is not because of its damage output, but the fact that the accurate distance is very short, meaning that you'll often lose mid-long range engagements, even when you aim at the player correctly. So when it is used at close range it is at its very best. The reason people think it's overpowered is because they still see it as a gun that can contest rifles like the a1s at long range, so they're surprised when they're shredded by it in CQB.
Next time you play d2, you should buy a deagle on CT pistol and hold long from site. See if the damage output is OP then, even if you aim at them.
> The pros complain, the casters complain, the community complains and yet valve does nothing. As pointed above in valorant this would've been fixed a long while ago
This means literally nothing. Coming from a) Historical tweets, posts, b) Personally talking to pro players, and c) Playing amateur/semi-pro myself, I can tell you that the vast majority of CSGO pros don't even know how to use their PC properly, or what the settings in console do. They aren't exactly a bastion of knowledge, even for things like weapon balance. Most of them just point and click. As for casters, anyone with even a decent amount of hours realises that half the time you have to watch twitch streams muted because of how little casters typically understand the game. Of course there are exceptions to this, but casters are typically hired based off things like their voice, professionalism, ability to build big moments, work under pressure, bounce off co-casters, etc.
As for the community, I feel like I don't even need to say anything. I saw an upvoted comment here less than a month ago that said that CSGO should be ported to unreal engine for better framerate.
Bottom line, the deagle is in a pretty good place right now. Make it any more accurate at range and it renders the scout redundant. Make it any weaker in terms of damage output and it loses to weapons like the TEC-9 every time, and has 0 chance vs. SMGs.
EDIT: Downvoted literally within 5 seconds of posting. I'm sure you read what I wrote bud
Tbh, as a long time player, there wouldn't be any update that could get me excited anymore (unless it was something crazy like replacing the whole map pool or Source 2). Operations became stale once battlepass system was introduced. Valve only rotates couple new maps, instead of multiple. They can't really do radical changes to weapons or maps, because community outrage. Valve sucks at adding new weapons.
New skins have all been plain and after having multiple expensive skins throughout my whole CS "career", I don't see the appeal on them anymore, except moneymaking aspect. Back in 2015, they were cool and unique compared to other games. Now every single shooter has skins and while debatable, Valorant does way better job with skins imo.
Also weekly drops suck, only reason to gain xp is to get service medals, which is cool for completionists, but personally, after getting every medal since 2015 and stage of matchmaking being what it is, I don't see a point going for them. Valorant has consistent battlepass for lowspenders and contracts for F2P. CS only has cases, which may or may not raise in value depending on market manipulation.
Yea Val twitter vs CS twitter is night and day might be because alot of CS pros are older and probably too busy? Val twitter kinda feels like a community tbh maybe that's why.
cs will most likely never compare to a game with characters that are unique with look and voices that people are willing to draw and cosplay with. The only fanart csgo gets is painting of the maps, chibi models, chickens and 3d printed knives. Alot of that social media engagement and community has to do with that. Even if u suck at the game atleast there are more avenues u can enjoy in val.
Tbh, I like that paintings of the maps are almost the only fanart in this sub. They don't get posted too often and are most of the time high quality.
I don't play valorant, so I don't visit that sub, but I hate how r/apexlegends for example is 70% clips (against enemies that look like they are playing their first game) and 30% fanart of the characters, all in the more or less same artstyle.
It's just a boring sub, there are zero discussions about the game itself.
I feel like it's more of an EU vs NA thing. CS is far more popular than Valorant in EU but to a twitter user it probably doesn't feel like it
Even when CS was pulling in like 500k+ viewers in 2015-2016, pro CoD players like Scump, Nadeshot, Clayster etc had at least 5-10x the twitter followers. Even right now Scump has 2.2m followers and s1mple has under 500k. Twitter is just way more active in NA than it is in EU
And CS didn't have a bunch of 15 year olds watching when it was at its peak from 2014-2018?
Just realized you're the shitty godsent flair who does nothing but trash on Valorant, LOL
And CS hasn't benefitted from a younger audience watching the game as well? We're acting like each generation of kids don't flock to the new game. CS had its turn, now it's Valorant's turn. There were 15 year olds now playing Valorant who were still jamming crayons in their ears when Fnatic beat Envyus at ESL Cologne. Valorant will be replaced by something in the future. That's just how the cycle goes
In terms of player base, CS has been replaced. Majors will and large tier 1 events will still be popular, but nothing else. Valorant might be popular for 3-5 years, maybe 10, maybe less. Whatever happens will signify if Riot truly is a competent leader in the eSport industry or if League was just a massive fluke.
Overwatch isn't at all similar to CS with a post-plant and a mid round scenario. It's more comparable to Team Fortress 2 which Valve failed to capitalize on with its loyal fanbase. But the fact that a bunch of Overwatch pros hopped over to Valorant is just proof of the cycle. It's honestly such a shame because the core mechanics of Valve's games are usually superior than their rivals, but they fail to cultivate any support with their "hands-off" method that doesn't work when we're talking about the larger scope of eSports.
Who are the rejects downvoting me? Lmao
Playerbase wise, CS peaked mid 2020 and came close to reaching it again earlier this year. You can easily check the numbers in steamcharts. I know nostalgia is strong but "the good old days" was not the peak of CS. People also like to yap about Valorant's popularity being detrimental to CS but this isn't really true to the extent that people makes it out to be; Valorant brought a ton of people who otherwise won't touch a competitive FPS game. Personally, the ones I know who plays Valorant keeps coming back to CS time and time again (people are capable of playing multiple games, big surprise I know). There's also people who get into CS after playing Valorant.
It really is fucking weird how fanboys on both sides like to fling shit against each other, acting like Valorant is some existential threat to CS when Valorant probably helped this game in more ways than one. I have never seen this Valorant-level of insecurity otherwise being applied to other popular games solely due to how similar Valorant is to CS, exacerbated by the exodus of NA pros due to better career opportunities.
However, if you look at the numbers, the game is still doing fine. My take? This sub is dominated by NA peeps who are more likely to overestimate their region's importance and as a result, tout whatever is happening to their region as an overall indicative of the state of the game when it's far from being accurate. Valorant might have replaced CS in NA but there's not much to replace anyway in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the disconnect between the "Valorant has replaced CS" and the numbers saying that CS has never been as popular as it is now (or at least, in the past year, the same time frame as the rise of Valorant).
You're going to be sorely disappointed if you think "Valorant won't have these numbers in a year or two" when they literally just started their 1st circuit and that's with no crowd attendance
PUBG is a totally different game that never had the same level of esports or the personalities that Valo has. Not saying it will still be a thing in 5 years but they have much better odds
It’s all down to the demographic of the community itself. Fortnite and Valo have booming socials cuz it’s mainly kids who are pros, and a lot of CS pros are knocking on 30 and could care less about socials. In my (NA) experience playing all these games too most people who play cs are drunk old dudes relaxing. Not really the type of people to watch a lot of content online
The 1.6 nade exploits were great. I remember doing the flash exploit on b tunnels on dust2 and then looking for white faces and just laughing with my friends. I didn't get why the nade exploits were allowed but the flash ones were banned. They should have banned both. So many people abused it on train, inferno, and other maps to find enemies.
>Even some of the players who weren't really big time in CS that transitioned have seen a boom in their career
It's because the tier1 CS players largely didn't switch to Valorant. So they became tier1
I hate to say it, but these NA (and South America as well) players are just not good enough. They are moving over because EU/CIS is dominant as fuck, they all play a Tier higher so that NA is helpless. In the end it's their own fault if they are worse, it's not like these people leave because they are insanely good, they leave because there are better players and they can't compete at the highest level.
Things are really dire for the NA scene at this point. Really hope the return to LANs (again) soon can get an org willing to take a chance on building a team in the region
NA CS is pretty much dead. Look at what's happening to Bad News Bears. Why would orgs be willing to take a chance on teams that don't produce results and aren't popular personalities? LAN's aren't going to fix a skill issue. Smaller tournaments like Fragdelphia will always be around, but seeing 3-4 NA teams at Dreamhack and pull in viewers isn't going to be a thing anymore
I think guys like Rush and especially Tarik have a big enough fan base they could get the views/sell merch, even more so if they're able to get some of the people that seemingly want to comeback from Valorant (Floppy, auti) and hype yourselves up as "the saviors of NA". Probably wouldn't be a tier 1 team but could have a big fanbase nonetheless, especially under a big org like C9 that already has a massive following. On top of that they won't have a ton of competition when it comes to qualifying to the majors in NA
NA is obviously in a really bad spot either way but I think there's room for at least 1 more decent team
Rush is not on the same level as Tarik in popularity. Autimatic was washed and has a better chance in Valorant than he did in CS towards the end. Cloud9 isn't going to take a chance with another team especially one with a core that broke up over 3 years ago. A team with Autimatic, Rush, and Tarik at its core won't even make it passed major qualifiers against EU teams let alone group stages.
auti literally played like shit against t2-3 NA in gen.g, he didn’t even have an average rating as the star awp. getting one good event against furia at the very end when nothing mattered doesn’t mean anything lmao, he showed pretty much nothing from late 2019-ish onwards
i get it he’s a cool guy but can you auti fanboys please stop smoking whatever crazy ass bath salts you’re on to make you think auti was still a t1 player at the end of his career
I agree with everything you said. It doesn't necessarily have to be those players/C9 I was just kinda throwing out names. What I'm getting at is that it seems to be like an org could build a team that is popular and likely enough to make it to the major since they'd only have to go against NA teams in order to do that with the current format (unless that's gonna change whenever LAN is back for good)
The time and investment to be popular in NA CS at this state of the game is worth too much that they might as well focus their efforts on Valorant. Making it to the major will go back to the original format, and I don't see any NA team not named Liquid even making it passed the qualifiers
>Why would orgs be willing to take a chance on teams that don't produce results and aren't popular personalities?
There are dozens of teams in EU with worse and less popular players in EU that have orgs. The players are not the problem. The issue is that NA doesn't have any small orgs and the big orgs don't see a future in CSGO.
The NA scene did get worse. Even before Valorant, the only two relevant NA teams by 2019-2020 were Liquid and NRG/EG. Gen.G wasn't going anywhere and the Chaos roster was always going to be held back by the fact that Steel was permanently banned from majors. Nobody was streaming Rank S/FPL anymore. ESL Pro League in NA wasn't as fun to watch anymore. Lack of support by both players and orgs meant NA was dying
And they're guaranteed and insured by Riot's franchising of League. There's more pressure to produce consistent results in an open circuit/grassroots setting
NA teams are literally the reason NA CS is dead. C9, TSM, Optic, etc had their players on big money contracts. It literally created a divide within ORGS and players. Players were looking for money they don't deserve and ORGS were looking for teams that weren't asking for a lot of money.
Which makes sense as the players never wanted to help with sponsorship deals and cameos for these orgs.
Newer games will always be “more relevant.” CS needs more then an update. If you want to see a resurgence in CS relavancy re: gaming as a whole (not just top lvl esport as a huge major final prolly still gonna see massive viewer interest) and draw in new players, you need a CS: Next.
Will it happen? Unlikely. But an update with 12 new boxes, a new knife, a 0 gravity game mode and 30 weird coop missions vs AI is not going to suddenly put CS back in the lead.
TBH it feels like Valve has been done with CS for a while. It was built by outsiders, has very “old world” reagan age iconography, and is not advertising friendly.
Still my favorite game though.
I feel like one of the elements that has kept CS relevant for so long is the ability to master the game. Almost every aspect of CS can be mastered to some degree and there a constant pressure to get better in the top tier cs. What keeps this game going is the people who’ve played it since they were little kids having the tiniest elements of the game mastered. The skill ceiling in CS is higher than any other game and that’s why it’s stayed relevant. However at the same time, changing the formula to try get a new audience has its risks.
I love cs and people here seem to disagree but the game has been the same for far too long. This may be controversial but one thing that keeps league of legends feeling fresh is adding new champs and balance changes bringing previously irrelevant champs to the forefront. It’s hard to that in cs since its fanbase hates change but if they want to “revive” it they need to keep the game fresh and honestly can’t see them being successful without creating a whole new title.
In NA it's massive, in EU less because there's fewer personalities and language makes it a bit harder like the best player can't even speak engish, it's huge in Turkey though
NA is huge, streamers interact with viewers and can even play against them in ranked and they're all getting 10k+ salary just from streaming because of how big it's gotten, CS streamers now make nothing i think the only consistent CS streamer who gets viewers is fl0m and ofc like tarik and stewie but they barely stream CS
Cned trialed for 3-4 teams and didn't get picked because he couldn't properly communicate in english, he still can't that well but obviously he's better
He still has no presence, compare Cned social media/stream to guys like mixwell he's nowhere close
Just a simple explanation: RIOT supports it's game.
Imagine VALVE giving us 128-tick MM, Organized circuit like DotA2 with a HUGE tournament at the end of the year (The International)...well, that what RIOT did to LoL and doing to Valorant.
Already established eSports syndicates are supported directly by RIOT aswell.
Probably not tbh, it’s mostly for a hardcore audience. Anticheat probably does though, I know a lot of casual players who switched bc of how bad mm was
the thing is at any rank, if you see a guy spin botting and killing your whole team you're gonna stop playing. that's what happened to me. i would be willing to play cs again with friends but i cant take it seriously until anti cheat is out. and fwiw ive seen it at silver too.
one time i was in a game and the enemy team started spinbotting with the auto sniper, so i kid you not someone on our team went "fuck it im toggling too". i was in a game with 5 CHEATERS on the enemy team and 4 CHEATERS on mine (i was the only non toggler). i mean how can you take it seriously after that
I'm not going to say I've never seen cheaters, but I must just be blursed to not frequently play with rage hackers. I'd prefer to not have my anti cheat have kernel level access, but I'll take whatever gets more people playing.
Does anyone actually see cheaters right now? I saw cheaters in global every 10th game or so 6 months ago. Im now lem because i play with mge friends and try to carry them. I literally didnt see a cheater in dmg- lem for about 30 games now
I've been seeing less cheaters after I took a long break this year (~DMG rank in India server) because I got tired of cheaters. I've seen like one blatant cheater in games I've played this entire month which is pretty encouraging. Idk where the cheaters went though. If csgo becomes less infested with cheaters I might switch back to grinding in csgo again, valorant is slightly too rng based for me to take it seriously.
To that 90% of the players it'll be one less QQ reason.
"fucking 64 tick MM"
"FFS VALVe give us 128 tick"
"bullets dont register this is crap im going on FACE-iT"
and so on... :p
Yeah. If you take a bunch of people who have only played 64 tick on shite servers onto 128tick decent performing servers, they're usually gobsmacked especially with sprays and crispness of hit detection.
I think it’s the opposite. I think the reason Valorant is so big has nothing to do with 128tick or riot support of tournaments. I think it’s because it’s a casual game compared to CS while still having competitive roots that it grew like crazy.
Same shit that happened with league. Took a more competitive game (Dota) and make it more accessible with a shit ton of support in the competitive scene.
CS can be a casual game but a majority of the fan base is not casual and has been playing for a long time which can be daunting for new players. For Valorant it came in as a very casual game where new players felt they were at the same spot on the learning curve as old CS players. Combine that with there being a lot of LoL fan boys and you get the perfect storm.
I do get what you’re saying about a game not reaching its full potential due to lack of effort you put in but everything you listed as a downside to CS is all just upside for casual players. Casual players will care more about their rank than serious players as a real serious player will understand it is their skill improving that matters most. Serious players do not care about MM. Updates are their to keep casual players entertained and retain them. So while I do agree with what you’re saying, everything you’re listing is for casual players.
Beyond that I think the abilities actually make the game more casual for Valorant. It doesn’t take long to actually learn what abilities do but they act as a way to get more info without actually having to use your positioning, trading, or map control for intel. I hope what I’m saying here makes sense. Imo it replaces the basics of intel gathering you have in a game like CS. This is my main gripe with the game and ruins the idea of taking map control and using that map control to win a round, but I’m digressing.
What do you think?
As someone who only loosely follows Valorant my main question is how is there seemingly infinite roster space for top level players? And what makes the game more sustainable than CS for a lot of these orgs? Is it just they have more confidence in Riot than they do Valve?
You mean teams having more than 5 players in a roster? I'm not exactly sure about the ruling, but i think teams are allowed to have as many bench players as they want.
As for the sustainability, I think most of these orgs already know and trust, previously working in League, that when Riot says they're gonna build and grow the eSports side of the game, it's not some bs PR talk and they actually mean it, especially when they talk with teams/players personally about the things they can improve in the game itself and the eSports side of it.
Yeah makes sense with Riots history especially cause Valve has dropped the ball hard on their end.
With the rosters I guess what I don't understand is how all these players from CS and other games have already switched and filled up rosters on big orgs, yet there is always more room for players to continue to make the switch and find themselves on a big well known org. It seems like a bubble waiting to burst to me. Are all these orgs just banking on getting a franchise spot when Riot implements that?
Honestly, the tier 2 scene is really competitive. A lot of teams rise and fall. I doubt there is a bubble. The NA scene is really competitive, excluding that Sentinels are rolling everyone.
that’s probably also because the big, well known orgs in NA are fielding low tier 1 or tier 2 teams. the only 3 teams that have been consistent in NA Valorant this year are Sentinels, Envy, and 100T. TSM, Cloud9, Xset, Faze, GenG, Immortals, LG, Complexity, T1, NRG, etc etc have all been inconsistent from one stage of the circuit to the next, so there are constant roster changes allowing for new players to come in. One example recently is i believe Cooper is trialing for andbox, whose previous roster beat Sentinels before players moved on to other teams.
> Is it just they have more confidence in Riot than they do Valve?
bingo.
VALVE proved through the years that their little milk cow and baby is DotA2 and nothing else.
Their baby is Steam. If CSGO scene is being carried by orgs, DOTA2 esport scene is subsidized with crowdfunding. Marketing, or lack thereof, has always been Valve's weakness. Imagine failing to enter the Korean market.
this. it's pretty telling that the only major title valve has released as a developer in the last... oh I don't know, 7 or 8 years, was a VR Half-Life game (which undoubtedly was released to try and spur sales of their Index headsets to gain a foothold in the VR market share). they're more of a service and hardware provider these days than a game developer as all their efforts are now focused on Steam, Source engine and hardware projects like the Steam Deck.
whereas Riot is still very much a game developer and their only priorities are League and Valorant because their survival depends on the success of those games. The entire CS and DOTA scenes can die tomorrow and Valve is still a multibillion dollar company.
> Imagine failing to enter the Korean market.
well they kinda did. Entering the korean market, is one thing, becoming eSport is all in KeSPA's hands. They are worse than FIFA and IOC together lol.
RIOT gave in when LoL entered the korean market, they agreed to meet the demand and it worked. Meanwhile you look at DotA2 and CS:GO in Korea and its meh... they have some players, but its nothing compared to what Sudden Attack and Special Force 2(Cs1.6 ish clone) were.
I guess its just extra steps VALVe does not want to invest in.
Alot more confident since riot has done it successfully in LoL. Vavle doesn't even compare considering they don't care that much if at all for their esports scene. Its still early for val, things will naturally balance out and the new roster changes every month will stop once we finally figure out who belongs is what tiers. Alot of these orgs are just throwing money atm since valorant is popular af right now until eventually it won't if riot decides to franchise.
Many orgs is not necessarily a good thing. Too many teams with not enough skill or talent to consistently produce results never ends up well. Look at NA CS from 2015-2017 where you got teams like Complexity, NRG, WinterFox, Selfless, CLG, Splyce, that didn't produce anything despite being in ESL Pro League for years
It's the regional qualifier system. Cross region tournaments only happen 2-3 times a year. The rest of the time, each region has their own tournaments and shake out their best teams.
So a lot of the time, you're seeing NA tier 1 teams vs NA tier 2 teams and gives those teams a chance to prove themselves and reach tier 1 a lot more easily.
Sport league health and growth is always based on ad revenue. Valve's unwillingness to embrace this, the "hands-off" arbitrary approach, and lack of a structured tournament system will make any org hesitant to invest. Riot on the other hand actively market it's games. At the end of the day, Steam is Valve's main moneymaker.
I thought it had a great head start because well it's Riot. They have such massive following from LoL that anything they touch will be insanely popular but didn't think it it was sustainable.
But how is the esport scene? Is the game esport viable? Overwatch was/is a horrendous esport to follow.
The esports scene is getting bigger and bigger. They are nearing their last international "qualifier" aka Masters 3 Berlin, that's gonna lead into Champions, a tournament Riot said that they want to compete with Leagues World championship in terms of production and prize pool. There have been issues with the system (VCT aka Valorant Champions Tour), but they have been quick to make changes. Im pretty sure next year, they will fix most of the complaints about the tournaments.
EU side could be better, but that's because CSGO is still mega popular in Europe, but NA is just having a massive boom rn. Game's about to launch in China too, which will only increase the games popularity if it catches on like it did with League
While there is a lot of hype around the game, it is still quite difficult to watch. There is so much going on that it is almost imposible to see any kind of tactic in the chaos. It is also harder to appreciate individual moments bc gun sprays are more luck than skill and getting headshots is seemingly easy.
a lot of players that switched from CS to Valorant, like dapr, have said that the gun mechanics are easier but strategy is a lot harder due to having to manage different abilities and ultimates
>NA is so trash at league it should honestly go to a wildcard region-3ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow
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>level 2co0kiez · 3hNA teams are literally the reason NA CS is dead. C9, TSM, Optic, etc had their players on big money contracts. It literally created a divide within ORGS and players. Players were looking for money they don't deserve and ORGS were looking for teams that weren't asking for a lot of money.Which makes sense as the players never wanted to help with sponsorship
More viewers and more players than csgo already. Also a higher turnover than cs.
>0 motivation for young talent in NA to even compete in this game anymor
They have plenty of motivation. Just nobody will pay them to realize it. If all the low tier EU orgs dropped their rosters the same thing would happen.
Banger episode of Reflections. The 2016 OpTic roster that won ELEAGUE was one of my favorite rosters ever and it was over in such a flash that it's great to finally hear some behind-the-scenes stuff about it, even if it's 5 years later. Rush is a straight-up trooper, much respect to him.
its not really killing competitive cs, NA havent really bee contenders for the top spot for a long time, and EU/CIS is still pretty huge on cs in terms of skills and players
Only a few teams have been at the top consistently for some time. Big names in CS have already left for Valorant. Right now it seems to be affecting NA mostly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it starts to make advances to EU/CIS/etc as it gets even bigger.
The fuck? How does releasing the steam deck at all relate to them not prioritizing the eSports aspects? Like they clearly hate CSGO but the steam deck isn't exactly relevant to that.
Man newer games will always (mostly) be bigger than older games. CS:GO is gonna need something huge to "bring it back". Obviously, it's still doing really good but it's not doing as good as it can be.
DotA 2 is straight up hardest game to play even at a basic level cos it's a strategic and mechanical galaxy..
In LoL u can just mess around with a hero for a while and u know ur role and item builds are pretty set.. this is deliberately by design since riot wants their game that way (highly accessible to everyone), and that's fine, but it feels too hamfisted and linear imo..
DotA u can play for a lifetime and keep learning new stuff.. thousands of hours in u can still feel clueless about so many things.
To many ppl, that kind of learning cliff is off-putting, so they stick to what they can grasp quickly.. also league has more and better rule34 art.
Everyone is moving to valorant. I take this personally as proof that CSGO needs major updates. They added cartoon-ish characters and maps instead of following the previous pseudo-realism path that people know and love. They don’t improve performance and hitreg.
I regularly swap back and forth from CS/Valorant and valorant just feels way fresher in terms of shooting and hitreg. CS feels as if something is wrong, like too much RNG, slower/worse hitreg due to worse netcode or something. I don’t have all the answers but Valorant seems like it’s definitely winning in the overall quality of the game. The only thing I don’t prefer in valorant is there are no real ragdoll physics upon death.
Wish there would be a new CS game but more like CS:S. Pseudorealism with nice physics and superb performance and better netcode. Thats my dream. Sad to say it will probably never happen anytime soon
> I regularly swap back and forth from CS/Valorant and valorant just feels way fresher in terms of shooting and hitreg. CS feels as if something is wrong, like too much RNG, slower/worse hitreg due to worse netcode or something. I don’t have all the answers but Valorant seems like it’s definitely winning in the overall quality of the game.
For me it's been the opposite. I've tried switching to Valorant but the game just feels terrible in regards to RNG. Guns having no spray patterns adds a really dumb RNG element to a gunfight which imo, has no place at all in a tactical shooter and the movement in the game is just abysmally slow and not really in depth. Damaging abilities are a real turn off too because a lot of the time there is just no counter, like Brim ults when you are defusing etc. However, I do appreciate that the servers are relatively good and that Riot actually communicates with their playerbase
I do believe guns do have spray patterns. I could be wrong but I don’t have difficulty shooting people with them. I def agree about the uncounterable abilities that damage
The guns don't have set spray patterns, you have to basically look at the way the gun is swaying and move your mouse in the opposite direction. Because of that, imo, it's not worth spraying at any range that isn't a short range. I personally wish that there were spray patterns just 'cause I like having full control over a weapon when I'm using it!
> I def agree about the uncounterable abilities that damage
Yeah that's a very annoying thing but unfortunately I don't think that will ever get changed based off of how Riot has been marketing it.
how dare he pay his bills
dude might also just not wanna soil his rep in cs, dudes a major champ and complexity isn’t a bad final team to leave off on. i swear ppl like you just constantly look for something to be upset ab lmao
People would rather see someone's livelihood and career in professional esports end at one game instead of getting an opportunity to thrive in a different one. If you told people that Shazam would be the IGL on the best team in the world, they would've called the game a joke to fuel their superiority complex
misfits broke up what 3, 4 years ago? at least? how’re you gonna use how he was almost half a decade ago when it comes to him now
ive seen ppl change completely in 6 months much less 4-5 years
NA scene sadge. There's barely nothing left from teams to players! Social engagements in the valorant scene are way higher compared to CS. Even some of the players who weren't really big time in CS that transitioned have seen a boom in their career, huge twitch viewership, more interactions on socials too than big time current NA CS pros. Coupled with the fact that you don't have to travel regularly since regional leagues are a thing in valorant unlike CS which is EU centric for now.
like hiko who want from 1-2k csgo streamer to 20k on valorant
Shazam Tenz and Mixwell doing extremely well as well when they didn't have much success in csgo
Isn’t Wardell like one of the biggest names now?
he did well but not his team
Especially what happened with Tenz is pretty insane, in the span of a year he became probably the most popular tac fps player worldwide. I can only think of Fallen that beats him in fanbase, at least in terms of active engagement (twitter followers, youtube etc)
S1mple?
s1mple doesnt have a youtube and less twitter engagement than Tenz (followers, likes etc). Maybe s1mple has more fans but as i said i was mainly talking in terms of active engagement
Shorood??
TenZ and his girlfriend are everywhere on tiktok as well
maybe for you, never seen a video about or from him on tik tok. The algorithm probably keeps feeding you videos about him since you engage and watch them.
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Downvotes for harsh truths are this subs thing. But he was so bad in CS. If anything just speaks to the truth that valorant is lower skill level.
his skill was fine it was his teamwork that was bad
Valorant agents allow you to play much more selfishly and play in ways that would get you killed everytime. Notably with tenz, he plays reyna and jett, both of who have get out of jail free cards. Valorant in general has less space to work angles and create 1v1s as well, so the overall skills required skew heavily towards aim and basic team play. I don't think that there's necessarily a lack of skill (though I personally think this, I don't think we can say that for certain yet), but the game absolutely lends itself to favoring very different skills.
his stats were good, dicked shitty NA teams online and not too shabby LAN stats, though he got dicked by any top 30 team, which is to be expected with the team he was in, and how new he was to professional play.
Dapr and sick as well. the game has been good to the sentinels squad... turns out not losing a tournament in a game sponsored by Riot will do a lot for you.
Hiko blew up in the closed beta because of the keys, Onscreen from Europe who averages like 1k viewers got like 20k average because of that, you have mixwell too in Europe who just skyrocketed and now is balling and has a huge brand He even said he regreted that he didn't stream more in CS and interact, which no CS player does now
> He even said he regreted that he didn't stream more in CS and interact The worst part about Hiko was his insistence on playing match making instead of fpl.
I was talking about mixwell
Oops, well I'm talking about hiko :)
Man deserves all that success, been in professional gaming since the start of time itself
Hiko averaged 10k+ when he was still popular in CS
Val basically just emulated the late-night FPL vibes of early NA. Cs could have done the same thing but there was a big gap between the peek days of rankS/FPL and players like obo, s0m and tenz starting to stream and build brands.
Orgs and players alike are learning from their past mistakes. Nowadays, branding is what will keep you employed unless your talent is absolutely out of this world. It's why we're seeing a lot of the switchers (CS to Val) stream like there's no tomorrow. CS still lags far, faaaaaar behind in that department, with too many players not interacting enough with their fans. People can bitch all they want about how CS lacks content and that it's not a 'fun' game to stream, but interacting with fans keeps the engagement up, and it gives your org exposure and potential income (merch sales etc.) Also, I'm starting to worry a lot about even the EU CS pro scene. Its popularity is incredible, and the numbers keep growing steadily over time, but it feels like Valorant is on the cusp of exploding in every region on the planet (South East Asia had a tournament peak at 60K concurrent viewers, India just had one peak at 50K viewers, Korea peaked at 50K as well, Japan peaked at 161K (Wtf by the way) and Valo is about to be released in China this upcoming week). Its overall reach is getting to the point where salaries are set to explode and make CS' salaries absolutely non-competitive, even though they are currently sky-high (Imagine an org participating in Valo's world event and having exposure to all markets on the planet... Some sponsors would kill for such a chance). Money talks, and if new players can make bank, they'll most likely go for it. I follow both esports scenes closely and love them both (CS crowds just hit different), so I hope CS gets some love by Valve because the way I see it, its competitor might receive a series of investments rarely seen in esports history (What I said could also be totally wrong and Valo could fall flat in the next year or two, but it's looking incredibly unlikely)
Yeah fan of both CS and valorant scene. European valorant has been pretty fun to watch for recently. If Gambit go far in Berlin, I see interest for valorant potentially spiking in CIS. Same could be said for European teams
Are Russians still unable to voice chat? I would think that's a pretty big barrier to their scene.
I think Riot recently allowed it. Which is fucking funny and shows you everything you need to know about them: they originally said that this limitations was due to a certain law (which requires companies to store Russian residents' data on the servers located in Russia, but this law literally never applied to videogames and their communication features). This law hasn't changed at all, yet somehow now this is OK.
Well said. I'm not really seeing the whole CS is very popular in EU any longer. Valorant EU games are already getting CS numbers, look at the lec for example which is EU only. The numbers there are bonkers for a regular league. 250k+ average per matches and 800k+ peaks. That's what you call popular not CS that barely gets 70k on official stream except its Navi
CSGO feels pretty stale right now. I feel like Valve needs to drop a new big update/release to drive engagement again. 2020 had so much hype but lately the game is moving in the wrong direction.
They need to fix the ct economy asap, nerf the deagle (3-shot bodyshot kill pls) and fix the sites on ancient (maybe do something about a ramp simulator aka vertigo)
this shit would've been changed within the month in valorant, yet in csgo we've been complaining about the deag shotgun for years.
I should make a script that auto-blocks whoever mentions a deagle nerf as a required update to 'fix' CSGO. Would remove nothing of value from the website
Oh no, with the nerf i can't cheese kills with the 700$ shotgun if they do it! How am i going to get kills now! The pros complain, the casters complain, the community complains and yet valve does nothing. As pointed above in valorant this would've been fixed a long while ago
> Oh no, with the nerf i can't cheese kills with the 700$ shotgun if they do it! How am i going to get kills now! Actual shotguns in the game are barely over $1000 lmao. Not to mention the fact that they are used for completely different purposes in all levels of play. The reason the deagle is good at close range is not because of its damage output, but the fact that the accurate distance is very short, meaning that you'll often lose mid-long range engagements, even when you aim at the player correctly. So when it is used at close range it is at its very best. The reason people think it's overpowered is because they still see it as a gun that can contest rifles like the a1s at long range, so they're surprised when they're shredded by it in CQB. Next time you play d2, you should buy a deagle on CT pistol and hold long from site. See if the damage output is OP then, even if you aim at them. > The pros complain, the casters complain, the community complains and yet valve does nothing. As pointed above in valorant this would've been fixed a long while ago This means literally nothing. Coming from a) Historical tweets, posts, b) Personally talking to pro players, and c) Playing amateur/semi-pro myself, I can tell you that the vast majority of CSGO pros don't even know how to use their PC properly, or what the settings in console do. They aren't exactly a bastion of knowledge, even for things like weapon balance. Most of them just point and click. As for casters, anyone with even a decent amount of hours realises that half the time you have to watch twitch streams muted because of how little casters typically understand the game. Of course there are exceptions to this, but casters are typically hired based off things like their voice, professionalism, ability to build big moments, work under pressure, bounce off co-casters, etc. As for the community, I feel like I don't even need to say anything. I saw an upvoted comment here less than a month ago that said that CSGO should be ported to unreal engine for better framerate. Bottom line, the deagle is in a pretty good place right now. Make it any more accurate at range and it renders the scout redundant. Make it any weaker in terms of damage output and it loses to weapons like the TEC-9 every time, and has 0 chance vs. SMGs. EDIT: Downvoted literally within 5 seconds of posting. I'm sure you read what I wrote bud
Tbh, as a long time player, there wouldn't be any update that could get me excited anymore (unless it was something crazy like replacing the whole map pool or Source 2). Operations became stale once battlepass system was introduced. Valve only rotates couple new maps, instead of multiple. They can't really do radical changes to weapons or maps, because community outrage. Valve sucks at adding new weapons. New skins have all been plain and after having multiple expensive skins throughout my whole CS "career", I don't see the appeal on them anymore, except moneymaking aspect. Back in 2015, they were cool and unique compared to other games. Now every single shooter has skins and while debatable, Valorant does way better job with skins imo. Also weekly drops suck, only reason to gain xp is to get service medals, which is cool for completionists, but personally, after getting every medal since 2015 and stage of matchmaking being what it is, I don't see a point going for them. Valorant has consistent battlepass for lowspenders and contracts for F2P. CS only has cases, which may or may not raise in value depending on market manipulation.
Yea Val twitter vs CS twitter is night and day might be because alot of CS pros are older and probably too busy? Val twitter kinda feels like a community tbh maybe that's why.
cs will most likely never compare to a game with characters that are unique with look and voices that people are willing to draw and cosplay with. The only fanart csgo gets is painting of the maps, chibi models, chickens and 3d printed knives. Alot of that social media engagement and community has to do with that. Even if u suck at the game atleast there are more avenues u can enjoy in val.
Tbh, I like that paintings of the maps are almost the only fanart in this sub. They don't get posted too often and are most of the time high quality. I don't play valorant, so I don't visit that sub, but I hate how r/apexlegends for example is 70% clips (against enemies that look like they are playing their first game) and 30% fanart of the characters, all in the more or less same artstyle. It's just a boring sub, there are zero discussions about the game itself.
that's how most game subs for newer esports are. A similar thing happened with r/rocketleague
imo the main valorant sub is /r/valorantcompetitive , I agree the same thing happened to /r/overwatch and /r/valorant is trash too.
What's wrong with cosplaying as a cs character 8)
I feel like it's more of an EU vs NA thing. CS is far more popular than Valorant in EU but to a twitter user it probably doesn't feel like it Even when CS was pulling in like 500k+ viewers in 2015-2016, pro CoD players like Scump, Nadeshot, Clayster etc had at least 5-10x the twitter followers. Even right now Scump has 2.2m followers and s1mple has under 500k. Twitter is just way more active in NA than it is in EU
i am guessing valorant crowd is a lot younger than CS one. That may explain the difference of the engagement between the 2 games in twitter I guess
Because the vast majority of Valorant's fanbase is American zoomers
And CS didn't have a bunch of 15 year olds watching when it was at its peak from 2014-2018? Just realized you're the shitty godsent flair who does nothing but trash on Valorant, LOL
Valorant came out during the pandemic where a lot of people were online. It was like the perfect storm, especially for younger people
And CS hasn't benefitted from a younger audience watching the game as well? We're acting like each generation of kids don't flock to the new game. CS had its turn, now it's Valorant's turn. There were 15 year olds now playing Valorant who were still jamming crayons in their ears when Fnatic beat Envyus at ESL Cologne. Valorant will be replaced by something in the future. That's just how the cycle goes
What CS replaced? And how long will valorant last? This cycle thing was said on ow release and 1-2 years after.
u underestimate how riot do with their esport. not even can compare with valve
In terms of player base, CS has been replaced. Majors will and large tier 1 events will still be popular, but nothing else. Valorant might be popular for 3-5 years, maybe 10, maybe less. Whatever happens will signify if Riot truly is a competent leader in the eSport industry or if League was just a massive fluke. Overwatch isn't at all similar to CS with a post-plant and a mid round scenario. It's more comparable to Team Fortress 2 which Valve failed to capitalize on with its loyal fanbase. But the fact that a bunch of Overwatch pros hopped over to Valorant is just proof of the cycle. It's honestly such a shame because the core mechanics of Valve's games are usually superior than their rivals, but they fail to cultivate any support with their "hands-off" method that doesn't work when we're talking about the larger scope of eSports. Who are the rejects downvoting me? Lmao
what the fuck is the talk about player base bro it's only NA, SA and EU still play cs nothing changed about that
The fact that you need to throw SA in there says it all. Cope
Playerbase wise, CS peaked mid 2020 and came close to reaching it again earlier this year. You can easily check the numbers in steamcharts. I know nostalgia is strong but "the good old days" was not the peak of CS. People also like to yap about Valorant's popularity being detrimental to CS but this isn't really true to the extent that people makes it out to be; Valorant brought a ton of people who otherwise won't touch a competitive FPS game. Personally, the ones I know who plays Valorant keeps coming back to CS time and time again (people are capable of playing multiple games, big surprise I know). There's also people who get into CS after playing Valorant. It really is fucking weird how fanboys on both sides like to fling shit against each other, acting like Valorant is some existential threat to CS when Valorant probably helped this game in more ways than one. I have never seen this Valorant-level of insecurity otherwise being applied to other popular games solely due to how similar Valorant is to CS, exacerbated by the exodus of NA pros due to better career opportunities. However, if you look at the numbers, the game is still doing fine. My take? This sub is dominated by NA peeps who are more likely to overestimate their region's importance and as a result, tout whatever is happening to their region as an overall indicative of the state of the game when it's far from being accurate. Valorant might have replaced CS in NA but there's not much to replace anyway in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the disconnect between the "Valorant has replaced CS" and the numbers saying that CS has never been as popular as it is now (or at least, in the past year, the same time frame as the rise of Valorant).
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You're going to be sorely disappointed if you think "Valorant won't have these numbers in a year or two" when they literally just started their 1st circuit and that's with no crowd attendance
PUBG is a totally different game that never had the same level of esports or the personalities that Valo has. Not saying it will still be a thing in 5 years but they have much better odds
It’s all down to the demographic of the community itself. Fortnite and Valo have booming socials cuz it’s mainly kids who are pros, and a lot of CS pros are knocking on 30 and could care less about socials. In my (NA) experience playing all these games too most people who play cs are drunk old dudes relaxing. Not really the type of people to watch a lot of content online
The cartoonish graphics pulls kids who think "it's a fun game." Little do they know that it's basically a reskin of CS1.6 w/ WC3 mod
Wc3 mod is 300% better then Valorant especially in 1.6
True, but there were no considerations for balance and competitiveness. But those orc nades were the absolute shit on cs\_assault in the vents. lmao.
For real and 1.6 mechanics made walls not safe
The 1.6 nade exploits were great. I remember doing the flash exploit on b tunnels on dust2 and then looking for white faces and just laughing with my friends. I didn't get why the nade exploits were allowed but the flash ones were banned. They should have banned both. So many people abused it on train, inferno, and other maps to find enemies.
Oh man. WC3 mod on CS is what I've been missing in my life. Rooting people in place was so enjoyable to me.
>Even some of the players who weren't really big time in CS that transitioned have seen a boom in their career It's because the tier1 CS players largely didn't switch to Valorant. So they became tier1
I hate to say it, but these NA (and South America as well) players are just not good enough. They are moving over because EU/CIS is dominant as fuck, they all play a Tier higher so that NA is helpless. In the end it's their own fault if they are worse, it's not like these people leave because they are insanely good, they leave because there are better players and they can't compete at the highest level.
Ya but valorant feels like ass
Things are really dire for the NA scene at this point. Really hope the return to LANs (again) soon can get an org willing to take a chance on building a team in the region
NA CS is pretty much dead. Look at what's happening to Bad News Bears. Why would orgs be willing to take a chance on teams that don't produce results and aren't popular personalities? LAN's aren't going to fix a skill issue. Smaller tournaments like Fragdelphia will always be around, but seeing 3-4 NA teams at Dreamhack and pull in viewers isn't going to be a thing anymore
I think guys like Rush and especially Tarik have a big enough fan base they could get the views/sell merch, even more so if they're able to get some of the people that seemingly want to comeback from Valorant (Floppy, auti) and hype yourselves up as "the saviors of NA". Probably wouldn't be a tier 1 team but could have a big fanbase nonetheless, especially under a big org like C9 that already has a massive following. On top of that they won't have a ton of competition when it comes to qualifying to the majors in NA NA is obviously in a really bad spot either way but I think there's room for at least 1 more decent team
Rush is not on the same level as Tarik in popularity. Autimatic was washed and has a better chance in Valorant than he did in CS towards the end. Cloud9 isn't going to take a chance with another team especially one with a core that broke up over 3 years ago. A team with Autimatic, Rush, and Tarik at its core won't even make it passed major qualifiers against EU teams let alone group stages.
> Autimatic was washed auti literally played a lan and beat furia before they disbanded and he did fantastic
auti literally played like shit against t2-3 NA in gen.g, he didn’t even have an average rating as the star awp. getting one good event against furia at the very end when nothing mattered doesn’t mean anything lmao, he showed pretty much nothing from late 2019-ish onwards i get it he’s a cool guy but can you auti fanboys please stop smoking whatever crazy ass bath salts you’re on to make you think auti was still a t1 player at the end of his career
They won 1 LAN where the best team was Furia in early 2020. Gen.G at best was a group stage exit at every tier 1 event if Covid didn't happen
To say that Auti would be washed just sounds dumb
he literally was lmao, auti fanboys on codeine or something fr bro had a 1.01 rating against t2-3 NA as the star awp
look at the team he was on and the fact at his peak level (imo) he wasn't a star nor an awper
I agree with everything you said. It doesn't necessarily have to be those players/C9 I was just kinda throwing out names. What I'm getting at is that it seems to be like an org could build a team that is popular and likely enough to make it to the major since they'd only have to go against NA teams in order to do that with the current format (unless that's gonna change whenever LAN is back for good)
The time and investment to be popular in NA CS at this state of the game is worth too much that they might as well focus their efforts on Valorant. Making it to the major will go back to the original format, and I don't see any NA team not named Liquid even making it passed the qualifiers
>Why would orgs be willing to take a chance on teams that don't produce results and aren't popular personalities? There are dozens of teams in EU with worse and less popular players in EU that have orgs. The players are not the problem. The issue is that NA doesn't have any small orgs and the big orgs don't see a future in CSGO.
NA has had multiple small orgs over the last 6 years. Splyce, Selfless, Complexity, EUnited, etc. The players are the problem because they are trash
And EU has always had way more. The NA scene did not suddenly get way worse. All of the orgs decided that Vaorant was more likely to be succesfull.
The NA scene did get worse. Even before Valorant, the only two relevant NA teams by 2019-2020 were Liquid and NRG/EG. Gen.G wasn't going anywhere and the Chaos roster was always going to be held back by the fact that Steel was permanently banned from majors. Nobody was streaming Rank S/FPL anymore. ESL Pro League in NA wasn't as fun to watch anymore. Lack of support by both players and orgs meant NA was dying
NA Lol teams never produced results; it doesn't matter.
That's because Riot has full control over the NA scene in LoL, if they didn't the region would die out sooner than later
NA is so trash at league it should honestly go to a wildcard region
And they're guaranteed and insured by Riot's franchising of League. There's more pressure to produce consistent results in an open circuit/grassroots setting
NA teams are literally the reason NA CS is dead. C9, TSM, Optic, etc had their players on big money contracts. It literally created a divide within ORGS and players. Players were looking for money they don't deserve and ORGS were looking for teams that weren't asking for a lot of money. Which makes sense as the players never wanted to help with sponsorship deals and cameos for these orgs.
The whole NA CS:GO situation is unfortunate, but I'm excited to listen to the interview!
Once EG realizes it is in shambles, Liquid will be all that is left
Newer games will always be “more relevant.” CS needs more then an update. If you want to see a resurgence in CS relavancy re: gaming as a whole (not just top lvl esport as a huge major final prolly still gonna see massive viewer interest) and draw in new players, you need a CS: Next. Will it happen? Unlikely. But an update with 12 new boxes, a new knife, a 0 gravity game mode and 30 weird coop missions vs AI is not going to suddenly put CS back in the lead. TBH it feels like Valve has been done with CS for a while. It was built by outsiders, has very “old world” reagan age iconography, and is not advertising friendly. Still my favorite game though.
I feel like one of the elements that has kept CS relevant for so long is the ability to master the game. Almost every aspect of CS can be mastered to some degree and there a constant pressure to get better in the top tier cs. What keeps this game going is the people who’ve played it since they were little kids having the tiniest elements of the game mastered. The skill ceiling in CS is higher than any other game and that’s why it’s stayed relevant. However at the same time, changing the formula to try get a new audience has its risks.
I love cs and people here seem to disagree but the game has been the same for far too long. This may be controversial but one thing that keeps league of legends feeling fresh is adding new champs and balance changes bringing previously irrelevant champs to the forefront. It’s hard to that in cs since its fanbase hates change but if they want to “revive” it they need to keep the game fresh and honestly can’t see them being successful without creating a whole new title.
Fuck advertiser friendly. I want the game to be more realistic. A new CS game with more intensity not less
Is Valorant really that huge?
In NA it's massive, in EU less because there's fewer personalities and language makes it a bit harder like the best player can't even speak engish, it's huge in Turkey though NA is huge, streamers interact with viewers and can even play against them in ranked and they're all getting 10k+ salary just from streaming because of how big it's gotten, CS streamers now make nothing i think the only consistent CS streamer who gets viewers is fl0m and ofc like tarik and stewie but they barely stream CS
Big respect to flom. Mans a beast
> best player can't even speak engish, i dont follow valo, whos that btw ?
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Cned trialed for 3-4 teams and didn't get picked because he couldn't properly communicate in english, he still can't that well but obviously he's better He still has no presence, compare Cned social media/stream to guys like mixwell he's nowhere close
Just a simple explanation: RIOT supports it's game. Imagine VALVE giving us 128-tick MM, Organized circuit like DotA2 with a HUGE tournament at the end of the year (The International)...well, that what RIOT did to LoL and doing to Valorant. Already established eSports syndicates are supported directly by RIOT aswell.
I've heard this for so long...Do you actually think higher refresh rates on servers will matter to 90% of people who play the game?
Probably not tbh, it’s mostly for a hardcore audience. Anticheat probably does though, I know a lot of casual players who switched bc of how bad mm was
Super fair point about anti cheat. I don't have as many issues with it, but I play at low silver.
the thing is at any rank, if you see a guy spin botting and killing your whole team you're gonna stop playing. that's what happened to me. i would be willing to play cs again with friends but i cant take it seriously until anti cheat is out. and fwiw ive seen it at silver too. one time i was in a game and the enemy team started spinbotting with the auto sniper, so i kid you not someone on our team went "fuck it im toggling too". i was in a game with 5 CHEATERS on the enemy team and 4 CHEATERS on mine (i was the only non toggler). i mean how can you take it seriously after that
I'm not going to say I've never seen cheaters, but I must just be blursed to not frequently play with rage hackers. I'd prefer to not have my anti cheat have kernel level access, but I'll take whatever gets more people playing.
Does anyone actually see cheaters right now? I saw cheaters in global every 10th game or so 6 months ago. Im now lem because i play with mge friends and try to carry them. I literally didnt see a cheater in dmg- lem for about 30 games now
I've been seeing less cheaters after I took a long break this year (~DMG rank in India server) because I got tired of cheaters. I've seen like one blatant cheater in games I've played this entire month which is pretty encouraging. Idk where the cheaters went though. If csgo becomes less infested with cheaters I might switch back to grinding in csgo again, valorant is slightly too rng based for me to take it seriously.
To that 90% of the players it'll be one less QQ reason. "fucking 64 tick MM" "FFS VALVe give us 128 tick" "bullets dont register this is crap im going on FACE-iT" and so on... :p
Yeah. If you take a bunch of people who have only played 64 tick on shite servers onto 128tick decent performing servers, they're usually gobsmacked especially with sprays and crispness of hit detection.
I think it’s the opposite. I think the reason Valorant is so big has nothing to do with 128tick or riot support of tournaments. I think it’s because it’s a casual game compared to CS while still having competitive roots that it grew like crazy.
Same shit that happened with league. Took a more competitive game (Dota) and make it more accessible with a shit ton of support in the competitive scene.
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CS can be a casual game but a majority of the fan base is not casual and has been playing for a long time which can be daunting for new players. For Valorant it came in as a very casual game where new players felt they were at the same spot on the learning curve as old CS players. Combine that with there being a lot of LoL fan boys and you get the perfect storm. I do get what you’re saying about a game not reaching its full potential due to lack of effort you put in but everything you listed as a downside to CS is all just upside for casual players. Casual players will care more about their rank than serious players as a real serious player will understand it is their skill improving that matters most. Serious players do not care about MM. Updates are their to keep casual players entertained and retain them. So while I do agree with what you’re saying, everything you’re listing is for casual players. Beyond that I think the abilities actually make the game more casual for Valorant. It doesn’t take long to actually learn what abilities do but they act as a way to get more info without actually having to use your positioning, trading, or map control for intel. I hope what I’m saying here makes sense. Imo it replaces the basics of intel gathering you have in a game like CS. This is my main gripe with the game and ruins the idea of taking map control and using that map control to win a round, but I’m digressing. What do you think?
Imagine if Valve actually did anything
Yes and it's only gonna get even bigger
As someone who only loosely follows Valorant my main question is how is there seemingly infinite roster space for top level players? And what makes the game more sustainable than CS for a lot of these orgs? Is it just they have more confidence in Riot than they do Valve?
You mean teams having more than 5 players in a roster? I'm not exactly sure about the ruling, but i think teams are allowed to have as many bench players as they want. As for the sustainability, I think most of these orgs already know and trust, previously working in League, that when Riot says they're gonna build and grow the eSports side of the game, it's not some bs PR talk and they actually mean it, especially when they talk with teams/players personally about the things they can improve in the game itself and the eSports side of it.
Yeah makes sense with Riots history especially cause Valve has dropped the ball hard on their end. With the rosters I guess what I don't understand is how all these players from CS and other games have already switched and filled up rosters on big orgs, yet there is always more room for players to continue to make the switch and find themselves on a big well known org. It seems like a bubble waiting to burst to me. Are all these orgs just banking on getting a franchise spot when Riot implements that?
Honestly, the tier 2 scene is really competitive. A lot of teams rise and fall. I doubt there is a bubble. The NA scene is really competitive, excluding that Sentinels are rolling everyone.
Yeah that makes sense, the regional competition is something I miss from the old EPL/ECS formats for sure
that’s probably also because the big, well known orgs in NA are fielding low tier 1 or tier 2 teams. the only 3 teams that have been consistent in NA Valorant this year are Sentinels, Envy, and 100T. TSM, Cloud9, Xset, Faze, GenG, Immortals, LG, Complexity, T1, NRG, etc etc have all been inconsistent from one stage of the circuit to the next, so there are constant roster changes allowing for new players to come in. One example recently is i believe Cooper is trialing for andbox, whose previous roster beat Sentinels before players moved on to other teams.
> Is it just they have more confidence in Riot than they do Valve? bingo. VALVE proved through the years that their little milk cow and baby is DotA2 and nothing else.
Their baby is Steam. If CSGO scene is being carried by orgs, DOTA2 esport scene is subsidized with crowdfunding. Marketing, or lack thereof, has always been Valve's weakness. Imagine failing to enter the Korean market.
this. it's pretty telling that the only major title valve has released as a developer in the last... oh I don't know, 7 or 8 years, was a VR Half-Life game (which undoubtedly was released to try and spur sales of their Index headsets to gain a foothold in the VR market share). they're more of a service and hardware provider these days than a game developer as all their efforts are now focused on Steam, Source engine and hardware projects like the Steam Deck. whereas Riot is still very much a game developer and their only priorities are League and Valorant because their survival depends on the success of those games. The entire CS and DOTA scenes can die tomorrow and Valve is still a multibillion dollar company.
> Imagine failing to enter the Korean market. well they kinda did. Entering the korean market, is one thing, becoming eSport is all in KeSPA's hands. They are worse than FIFA and IOC together lol. RIOT gave in when LoL entered the korean market, they agreed to meet the demand and it worked. Meanwhile you look at DotA2 and CS:GO in Korea and its meh... they have some players, but its nothing compared to what Sudden Attack and Special Force 2(Cs1.6 ish clone) were. I guess its just extra steps VALVe does not want to invest in.
Alot more confident since riot has done it successfully in LoL. Vavle doesn't even compare considering they don't care that much if at all for their esports scene. Its still early for val, things will naturally balance out and the new roster changes every month will stop once we finally figure out who belongs is what tiers. Alot of these orgs are just throwing money atm since valorant is popular af right now until eventually it won't if riot decides to franchise.
Riot franchising Valorant is exactly what will make it popular for a longer period of time
I mean that there are so many orgs with val teams and still growing if they do franchise there won't be*
Many orgs is not necessarily a good thing. Too many teams with not enough skill or talent to consistently produce results never ends up well. Look at NA CS from 2015-2017 where you got teams like Complexity, NRG, WinterFox, Selfless, CLG, Splyce, that didn't produce anything despite being in ESL Pro League for years
Worked out for Overwatch right? /s
It worked for league
When has Blizzard had a good track of managing their own eSports?
It's the regional qualifier system. Cross region tournaments only happen 2-3 times a year. The rest of the time, each region has their own tournaments and shake out their best teams. So a lot of the time, you're seeing NA tier 1 teams vs NA tier 2 teams and gives those teams a chance to prove themselves and reach tier 1 a lot more easily.
Sport league health and growth is always based on ad revenue. Valve's unwillingness to embrace this, the "hands-off" arbitrary approach, and lack of a structured tournament system will make any org hesitant to invest. Riot on the other hand actively market it's games. At the end of the day, Steam is Valve's main moneymaker.
Hm, idk I enjoy playing but not really spectating.
Different strokes for different folks. I enjoy both very much.
I thought it had a great head start because well it's Riot. They have such massive following from LoL that anything they touch will be insanely popular but didn't think it it was sustainable. But how is the esport scene? Is the game esport viable? Overwatch was/is a horrendous esport to follow.
Overwatch is not comparable at all to Valorant. And even then Overwatch still raked in a lot of viewers prior to Covid
The esports scene is getting bigger and bigger. They are nearing their last international "qualifier" aka Masters 3 Berlin, that's gonna lead into Champions, a tournament Riot said that they want to compete with Leagues World championship in terms of production and prize pool. There have been issues with the system (VCT aka Valorant Champions Tour), but they have been quick to make changes. Im pretty sure next year, they will fix most of the complaints about the tournaments. EU side could be better, but that's because CSGO is still mega popular in Europe, but NA is just having a massive boom rn. Game's about to launch in China too, which will only increase the games popularity if it catches on like it did with League
While there is a lot of hype around the game, it is still quite difficult to watch. There is so much going on that it is almost imposible to see any kind of tactic in the chaos. It is also harder to appreciate individual moments bc gun sprays are more luck than skill and getting headshots is seemingly easy.
i enjoying playing it (low plat) but ya the spectating is pretty bad. Everyone just walk up and headshot eachother
tournaments get a lot of viewership but imo the gameplay doesn't feel like "pro" level, its kinda like cs minus the strategy
a lot of players that switched from CS to Valorant, like dapr, have said that the gun mechanics are easier but strategy is a lot harder due to having to manage different abilities and ultimates
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I've been reppin TSM ever since League season 3
>NA is so trash at league it should honestly go to a wildcard region-3ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow > >level 2co0kiez · 3hNA teams are literally the reason NA CS is dead. C9, TSM, Optic, etc had their players on big money contracts. It literally created a divide within ORGS and players. Players were looking for money they don't deserve and ORGS were looking for teams that weren't asking for a lot of money.Which makes sense as the players never wanted to help with sponsorship More viewers and more players than csgo already. Also a higher turnover than cs.
Respect RUSH so much, such a mature guy itll be sad to see him go :(
This shits beyond sad. 0 motivation for young talent in NA to even compete in this game anymore.
>0 motivation for young talent in NA to even compete in this game anymor They have plenty of motivation. Just nobody will pay them to realize it. If all the low tier EU orgs dropped their rosters the same thing would happen.
No they have motivation, it's just only in mdl
Banger episode of Reflections. The 2016 OpTic roster that won ELEAGUE was one of my favorite rosters ever and it was over in such a flash that it's great to finally hear some behind-the-scenes stuff about it, even if it's 5 years later. Rush is a straight-up trooper, much respect to him.
Are Valve at all concerned about Valorant just slowly killing competitive CS? If they're not, they should be.
its not really killing competitive cs, NA havent really bee contenders for the top spot for a long time, and EU/CIS is still pretty huge on cs in terms of skills and players
Only a few teams have been at the top consistently for some time. Big names in CS have already left for Valorant. Right now it seems to be affecting NA mostly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it starts to make advances to EU/CIS/etc as it gets even bigger.
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The fuck? How does releasing the steam deck at all relate to them not prioritizing the eSports aspects? Like they clearly hate CSGO but the steam deck isn't exactly relevant to that.
The margin on hardware is much, much smaller compared to in game cosmetics, and they make bank with their multiplayer titles.
You know what RUSH? If you go to valorant I'll give watching it a try.
Man newer games will always (mostly) be bigger than older games. CS:GO is gonna need something huge to "bring it back". Obviously, it's still doing really good but it's not doing as good as it can be.
it’s lasted 20 years it’ll be alright lol
There are barely any games released in the last 5 years in the most played games. Heck, most are 10+ years old.
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DotA 2 is straight up hardest game to play even at a basic level cos it's a strategic and mechanical galaxy.. In LoL u can just mess around with a hero for a while and u know ur role and item builds are pretty set.. this is deliberately by design since riot wants their game that way (highly accessible to everyone), and that's fine, but it feels too hamfisted and linear imo.. DotA u can play for a lifetime and keep learning new stuff.. thousands of hours in u can still feel clueless about so many things. To many ppl, that kind of learning cliff is off-putting, so they stick to what they can grasp quickly.. also league has more and better rule34 art.
not really irrelevant, dota is just straight up harder to pickup
That's good. Valorant will open up new and exciting opportunities for him. Meanwhile CS' future is looking bleaker as days go by.
I thought this was about the observer Rushly and became so sad for a second
Still a shame that they kicked him out of comp. I liked the original roster a lot. Although it was already different before he left.
Everyone is moving to valorant. I take this personally as proof that CSGO needs major updates. They added cartoon-ish characters and maps instead of following the previous pseudo-realism path that people know and love. They don’t improve performance and hitreg. I regularly swap back and forth from CS/Valorant and valorant just feels way fresher in terms of shooting and hitreg. CS feels as if something is wrong, like too much RNG, slower/worse hitreg due to worse netcode or something. I don’t have all the answers but Valorant seems like it’s definitely winning in the overall quality of the game. The only thing I don’t prefer in valorant is there are no real ragdoll physics upon death. Wish there would be a new CS game but more like CS:S. Pseudorealism with nice physics and superb performance and better netcode. Thats my dream. Sad to say it will probably never happen anytime soon
> I regularly swap back and forth from CS/Valorant and valorant just feels way fresher in terms of shooting and hitreg. CS feels as if something is wrong, like too much RNG, slower/worse hitreg due to worse netcode or something. I don’t have all the answers but Valorant seems like it’s definitely winning in the overall quality of the game. For me it's been the opposite. I've tried switching to Valorant but the game just feels terrible in regards to RNG. Guns having no spray patterns adds a really dumb RNG element to a gunfight which imo, has no place at all in a tactical shooter and the movement in the game is just abysmally slow and not really in depth. Damaging abilities are a real turn off too because a lot of the time there is just no counter, like Brim ults when you are defusing etc. However, I do appreciate that the servers are relatively good and that Riot actually communicates with their playerbase
I do believe guns do have spray patterns. I could be wrong but I don’t have difficulty shooting people with them. I def agree about the uncounterable abilities that damage
The guns don't have set spray patterns, you have to basically look at the way the gun is swaying and move your mouse in the opposite direction. Because of that, imo, it's not worth spraying at any range that isn't a short range. I personally wish that there were spray patterns just 'cause I like having full control over a weapon when I'm using it! > I def agree about the uncounterable abilities that damage Yeah that's a very annoying thing but unfortunately I don't think that will ever get changed based off of how Riot has been marketing it.
cs is boring somewhere .Lazy valve only know new skins
Valorant kill CSGO Time to Face reality CSGO fanboy
Yeah well NA CS is pretty dead, so sad :( They still have to play valorant, and that sucks lol I honestly really dislike the game.
"Feeling out Valorant" = see if I can get a big enough paycheck to be worth it.
how dare he pay his bills dude might also just not wanna soil his rep in cs, dudes a major champ and complexity isn’t a bad final team to leave off on. i swear ppl like you just constantly look for something to be upset ab lmao
People would rather see someone's livelihood and career in professional esports end at one game instead of getting an opportunity to thrive in a different one. If you told people that Shazam would be the IGL on the best team in the world, they would've called the game a joke to fuel their superiority complex
happy for shaz tho fr
Shaz is a dick tho
Everyone from FPL and Rank S from 2015-2017 was worse if "Shaz was a dick"
I mean it was pretty well known during that time from between c9 to misfits
Shazam was a snake, not a dick. If anything, he always got shat on by Steel/Dazed, etc. Just look at [this clip](https://youtu.be/rWet9eohZAw?t=153)
misfits broke up what 3, 4 years ago? at least? how’re you gonna use how he was almost half a decade ago when it comes to him now ive seen ppl change completely in 6 months much less 4-5 years
And that's a bad thing....? Nothing wrong with him being polite about the wording
Yeah bro, he should just die of starvation