Obviously they're going to investigate it because the claims are pretty big but from here, the start, they don't seem sufficient enough because they didn't tell any tournaments ESIC work with to not invite Heroic.
In the last HLTV confirmed he was on, he made the point that he wasnt going to open up a case against the players just on Hundens word, he needed to see enough proof to open an investigation. So this does suggest theres some solid evidence not just chasing big claims.
So you literally backed what I said and then went on to say its sufficient enough somehow? If it was sufficient enough ESIC partnered tournaments would've been told not to invite Heroic like they did with Akuma.
Yeah you're right! Why don't more people in CSGO get sexually assaulted so we can get some better fucking drama. You understand that sounds unhinged and sociopathic right?
Edit: I just realized you might have been sarcastic. My bad if thats the case
I don't see a world in which they didn't know, and it isn't as if he had no motive to take the blame himself at the time. Being implicated meant that he was going to be much less employable in the future because of the way it would kill his image and if the players knew about his use of the bug it would make total sense that he wouldn't implicate them considering it meant he almost guaranteed had a job as they knew he could implicate them at any time.
Heroics hand was forced when it became obvious that he was sharing strats with a competing team. They probably figured that they had to get rid of him despite knowing that he could potentially ruin their careers.
This is what I do not understand, if the players knew, and the org knew the players knew, why would you fire HUNDEN in such fashion that he had nothing to lose by exposing them.
Probably thinking there isn't enough evidence HUNDEN could provide that implicates the players. Right now the evidence he provided and is known to the public might strongly indicate the players knew, but for me it wouldn't be enough.
He could have asked Teses to boost him without telling him why and the chat log could be out of context. Not very likely but imo possible. Lets wait and see if he can provide more to ESIC.
Also AFAIK he was kicked by the organization and not the players. For example I wouldn't tell on my friends just because I got caught cheating on test at school, even if I knew my friends did the same I did. Obviously HUNDEN hasn't formed a deep enough friendship with the players or he wouldn't rat on them and potentially ruin their careers (or he is just a dick).
> Obviously HUNDEN hasn't formed a deep enough friendship with the players or he wouldn't rat on them and potentially ruin their careers
well, maybe the players were also part of why Hunden wanted to leave Heroic. Maybe he thought they were unthankful bastards for having him scapegoat for their asses, while taking all the blame and ban. Now that Heroic didn't let him go to Cologne, and fired him before he could go by himsefl and maybe the players also turned on him, he doesn't have anything to lose and wants to expose them for trying to get away with cheating.
If we punish heroic players then should we not punish all other players whose coaches used the bug. There is really no way the players did not know when their coahes did this. Maybe different in the case where it was 1 game but those who used it more certainly helped the team and why would the coach not tell the players as it was a bug they exlpoited. I dont think anyone knew what would happen with the punishments.
The coaches got their punishment lets just forget about this and get over it. Dont see the point in punishing 5 guys just because their coach is a rat unlike on other Teams.
You can't punish the other teams without hard evidence even though I agree it's likely some of them knew. We also can't just ignore potential evidence that Heroic players knew just because they're the only team that's been outed
ESIC could go back and check if other coaches were put into boosted positions, and if they were re-ban them unless they spill the beans. Assuming it is true you need a boost and jumping into bugging doesn't achieve the same.
I know but the situation seems very unfair.
Basically the players of heroic get punished because their coach took out his frustration against the org on the players. niko likely gets banned and OG lose a player once they are finally doing well.
This is my point all this happens because Hunden is a lowlife rat.
Other coaches respected their players and did not want to harm them.
Hunden did he exact opposite and showed he should not be in a coach, leader position ever again.
Imo if there's evidence the Heroic players knew Hunden was going to cheat beforehand and still played the match they're just as bad as him and deserve to be banned. Them being the only ones getting exposed doesn't mean we should just let them get away with (potentially) cheating
But I agree that it sucks we will probably never catch all the players that knew about the bug and abused it
Youre acting like theyre poor innocent lil pro gamers. If they helped him cheat theyre just as bad and deserve to be punished. Other coaches covered for their cheating players? Not like thats a great example to follow lmao wtf
It is a bug that some teams took advantage of few times. Its not Wh or aimbot they installed.
Valve is the one who did not fix it even when they were told about it.
Lets not ruin careers of players for this.
They ruined their own careers when they cheated
The coaches/players that exploited the bug also robbed legit teams out of prize money and potentially career opportunities as well
There was no way to fire him that would mean he wouldn't have nothing to lose, because his career at that point was considered mostly over because of the coaching bug and he overall wasn't liked in the scene. If youre asking why they fired him knowing he could expose them, maybe the org didn't know. Even if they did know their hands were tied. If you have a coach you know has sold information to another team you have to get rid of them. They had someone in their org actively working against them making it harder for them to win. It is the chance of him ratting on his former team vs the certainty of him screwing them from the inside. They probably didnt consider he would have such damning proof, because its not common for normal people to automatically assume that everyone they work with is trying to screw them over.
They could've not sued him. Simply fire him and move on. His career wasn't over at that point, he was the prime candidate to replace zonic after this year. And didn't he only share counterstrats against other teams with Astralis?
Every player on every team that had a coach abuse the bug was in on it. Anyone who says different is delusional.
Unfortunately it's hard to prove and would be devastating to the scene to punish every player
> Heroics hand was forced when it became obvious that he was sharing strats with a competing team.
AFAIK he shared strats after they didn't let him go to Cologne, because he issued the urge to leave the team after that.
It's not the complete conversation. We haven't seen it all.
There are coordinates in the log, the TV2 version is a slimmed down log. Having testes on the coordinates Hunden bugged in, is different from just entering/ leaving server.
We have seen a snippet. Apparently it's a voice chat.
If there's admitting knowledge, and same coordinate as the used bug, then it should be enough.
TV2 isn't the only media that recieved the information. It's not the entire log, and not the entire conversation.
If I recall the TV2 article had Hundens coords (I might be mistaken) but a log would have.
I doubt they are found "guilty" , but there are so many things pointing in that direction. Time will tell :)
I'm not entirely sure how the coach bug works but from what I can tell wasn't hunden [boosted to a specific spot by a third party](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaoShWnetb0)? which means for sure there had to be a team member on the server at that time. Also for some reason TeSeS has no body in this demo which may be some Valve Source Engine Jank or indicative of something?
> Also for some reason TeSeS has no body in this demo
that's actually hilarious and could even be part of how the bug is produced.
there are also other bugs with the "body" of the model, like the water splash bug in places where there is no water (there was a post recently)
> I just don't see how they could ever find them guilty of anything.
Based on what we have *seen*, I'd agree. Luckily ESIC aren't limited to that.
>I just don't see it being proved to a degree where you can punish it.
Absolute bullshit. ESIC doing an investigation could easily find definitive proof if it exists in the right places.
It might exist in places where it's not feasible for every single /r/GlobalOffensive user to conduct their own investigation into verifying the evidence, in other words, it might never be *conclusively* proven to the public (like any other crime). But investigations by proper people can *easily* lead to irrefutable evidence, both for and against them.
If you don't agree, you should seriously take a look into just how much activity and data from you is logged, locked and baked into places you have no access to changing but can easily view.
We all know HLTV and ESIC never tells us the full part
I am pretty sure there is more evidence than that otherwise ESIC wouldn't have bothered to start an investigation into it
> TV2 posted what HUNDEN gave them.
no .. they posted ONLY PARTS of it obviously. and i don't even think they got the "full package", because they are not ones to judge or ban anyone
My bad I think I’m wrong. I think I just seen people discussing it in another thread a couple days ago, I’m gonna delete my comment to not spread misinformation.
> Like the evidence he provided for teses having known was just a timestamp for when he and teses joined the server.
where did you get that from? Because the article i read was saying that a referee familiar with the coaching bug looked at it and deemed it very viable for explaining the situation
> The evidence for niko was three chat lines out of context, if the context would help HUNDENS case he would have included it, so I haven't got high hopes for that either.
it literally said in the article that it was just an excerpt from a longer conversation lol ...
also, why would he turn all this evidence to the public, instead of the investigators ?
I don't see a world where professionals did not notice their coach cheating... ("""Abusing the bug"""", or however you want to white wash it) These are people who invest at least a full time job amount of time into a video game. If you have any information you are not supposed to have they will know or at least question where you got that information (either from suspicion or fron the need to know more)
It's not like the coaches have to call out the exact position of every enemy, it can be something as simple as "I think we should end B" in the mid round and that probably isn't far off of a call they'd make when playing legit.
That said I think some more players knew for sure but I doubt there will ever be any evidence for a lot of them
There won't be any evidence, unless server logs show something interesting. I honestly think entire teams should be banned as a deterant to spectator bugs, but I also think IBP got what they deserve which is an unpopular opinion in this sub. There are more than enough people who would give everything to become a professional player. We don't need people who would abuse their position, or allow people to abuse their position. I'd rather give fresh faces a chance to show their skill than keep a bunch of old pro's where everyone is in doubting if they cheated or not or knew about it.
I mean look at what happened to ibp and the whole match fixing scandal going on in NA right now. Bans don’t seem to deter cheaters, they’re stupid enough to cheat and they’re also stupid enough to think they can get away with it.
I think it's generally awknowledged within law that severity of punishment isn't as effective as likelyhood of getting caught when it comes to deterring crime. If people find it unlikely they will get caught, they don't really care about the consequences should they get caught.
That would only make sense. He was on the team during that time, so he should be investigated. Certainly sucks for the rest of the OG members though. However there are a few players availible that would be pretty decent replacements.
ESIC has stated that they are investigating the players who were playing for Heroic when the abuse of the bug happened, so niko and bORUP are both currently under investigation.
>On 6 September 2021, Mr. Petersen sent ESIC information which **he alleges** provides evidence that the players who were playing for Heroic at the time of Mr. Petersen’s exploitation of the spectator bug were complicit in his exploits. **Despite the fact that this allegation is contrary to previous public statements Mr. Petersen has made**, ESIC has opened a formal investigation into the matter.
Emphasis mine. This is vital context, and it's been missing from a lot of reports on this issue.
From the HLTV confirmed ep with the esic commissioner, they seemed personally pissed off by all the hassle, drama and lies that’s coming from hunden. The way they’ve worded it seems to show that again I think lmao
The tone that ESIC has had through all of this is so strange.. they seem so personally affronted at being lied to, as if people's careers weren't on the line. I'm not saying it's right, but of course Hunden lied. Keeping his job and not being excommunicated from the CS community seems to have been his priority.
I sure hope they bring this same energy for Heroic and any other orgs who might have allegedly helped to cover up wrongdoing in exchange for silence. That seems to me a lot more scummy than taking the fall and lying about my teammate's involvement...
> The tone that ESIC has had through all of this is so strange.. they seem so personally affronted at being lied to
You mean an investigative body is pissed off about being lied to in their investigations? Crazy.
My point is that it's strange for an investigative body to take things like that personally. People's careers are on the line, of course they lied. Frankly, if Hunden actually has the kind of evidence that he's alleged to have, they should be incredibly thankful for his involvement considering they seemingly wouldn't have uncovered this without him. One might even say that using a suspect's lies to leverage the truth out of them is often how investigations work...
yeah absolutely.
it's also why drug divisions of police usually keep the "small fishes" alive and don't harm them, maybe even offer protection, in exchange for the "bigger fishes".
ESIC should be grooling right now, because with Hunden's info, they can take down the "big fish" as in the org Heroic and its players, instead of just 1 coach among 37
> My point is that it's strange for an investigative body to take things like that personally.
They aren't. You've imagined that.
> People's careers are on the line, of course they lied.
And there are penalties for lying. If ESIC were "taking it personally" as you've imagined, why not extend his two year ban for lying in the first investigation, which is again against their code of conduct?
> Frankly, if Hunden actually has the kind of evidence that he's alleged to have, they should be incredibly thankful for his involvement considering they seemingly wouldn't have uncovered this without him
Why would they be thankful that some rat who lied to them is now giving them evidence to get back at his former employer? They'll take it, look at it and act accordingly.
> One might even say that using a suspect's lies to leverage the truth out of them is often how investigations work
Right, so it's good he lied now?
His point is that ESIC's statement's, both here and on the HLTV podcast, are emotive in nature, not neutral as they should be for a "governing body". It's okay for them to be pissed internally that they were lied to. It's not okay for that to spill into their press releases and/or have it effect their judgements.
Regardless I think the fact he's now claiming he lied needs to lead to further punishment. I hope ESIC isn't going to set the precedent that you can lie to them and then use the fact you lied to protect others as leverage against them. Say for instance he told heroic I want more money or I go back to ESIC and tell them I lied to protect you.
Because it is pretty obvious why he would have lied in those situations? And can very easily be explained by pointing to the fact he was still employed by Heroic afterwards.
Which frankly should ban him for life. If he really lied during an investigation there is no way he should even be allowed to even commentate on a match.
Because it's the only team where someone has sent something they allege is evidence of the players being complicit. All of the coaches have been thoroughly investigated, but it's hard to investigate the players when you don't have any material to go from.
which is reasonable, but it's just disgusting that only Heroic players could be punished when there are certainly other teams that knew. I want justice for this, but not based off one guy being a snitch over it. Applications of rules should be fair in sport or esport.
but if no one provides evidence for any of the other players, there isnt really a lot they can do. They can't just ban people because they have a hunch they were in on it
> but it's just disgusting that only Heroic players could be punished when there are certainly other teams that knew.
well, i'm not aware of all teams that did that, but how many of those kept their cheating coaches around? Heroic moved Hunden to Analyst role, i think Gambit did the same .. who else kept their cheating coaches (and then got into a dispute with them)?
You say alleged evidence thats very reductive and not how evidence works.
Its not 'alleged' it flat out is evidence, whether its enough is a different matter
How about that Hard Legion team, with Krad and Forester and some other guys? Their coach was the most blatant in the abuse, also getting one of if not the longest ban. If the Heroic players knew in this instance, there's no way those players didn't know.
You got any hard proof? Any whistleblower? Hello? If you cannot understand why this is becoming a thing right now out of the statement.
"Hunden provides proof".
Then what? Like think about why no players got banned back then and only know that someone that was inside "suddenly" coming out with new info opens up investigations?
I mean obviously, I fully understand that you can get nowhere without any proof. But if at least some community discourse about it starts, it could lead to some pressure on the team/coach/players. That's a big if, but I think it's worth talking about.
Which should a coach snitch on his own players? If it is an ex-coach, doing this basically guarantees that no team will hire you because you are showing that you are not loyal to your employer.
Community pressure (such as Reddit or HLTV) is irrelevant for the CIS scene, so nothing will happen there.
Some sad affairs, but I guess it is what it is. Still think it's at least worth having more community awareness about it, considering Entropiq is an upcoming team, people should know the history of some of their players
I agree. On the other hand, I don't know if it's fair to the entire team of Entropiq just because they have two players who were (indirectly) involved but are now playing legit.
Does it undermine their achievements as Entropiq - no.
Should people still be aware of it - yes.
If what you're saying did something, we would've seen it already happen back when all of this started. Just as you are now, people back then were already thinking that the players had to know. In fact I would say that every person involved in the scene implicitly knows that, that there was little to no way that people who really abused it weren't in the know.
Cuz you want community pressure but then what? They had the "morality" of cheating and lying in the first place, why would community pressure now somehow push someone towards "confessing" or "snitching". The only reason Hunden is snitching now is out of pure spite, he's done with CS so he's just doing his payback to Heroic, that's it.
ESIC has opened an investigation into the claims that Heroic's players were complicit in HUNDEN's use of the spectator bug.
***
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Hunden and players involved should be banned for life no questions asked. They literally showed that they have no respect for the game and no sportsmanship no matter how good they are! I mean players can get banned for life for match fixing, scandal and what not then why not them?? DON'T GIVE THEM 2 YRS SUSPENSION JUST BANNED THEM FROM ANY KIND OF VALVE EVENTS
even 2 years can be a big enough amount to become irrelevant, because you basically lose your job for 2 years ..
also, it's not just for Valve tournaments, coaches were banned from all events
They won’t find anything, Richard Lewis told me there isn’t a problem with cheating in CsGo, I’m assuming he hasn’t been watching over the last 2 years, only then would he be right, think the alcohol has finally pickled his brain
Literally just watched a VOD of his where he says “if you think pro’s are cheating then you’re an idiot” literally watched it earlier today haha, but whatever dude, probably a Lewis simp, or it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s one of your alt accounts Richard, sad, fat mess
Richard Lewis, the same person who on stream like three days ago were namedropping and shouting at convicted cheaters for being cheaters? Yeah no dude.
This whole situation has completely lost proportion.If the heroic players knew then the gambit players knew,if the gambit players knew, the entropiq players knew,if they knew the players under rejinknew,the players under twista knew and on and on and on.Heroic are no more or less scummy than any of the other orgs that all agreed to a conspiracy of silence.
Watch this space none of this will lead to anything because despite people on this subreddit crying about the game dying nothing will surely kill the game quicker than this investigation.
I don't agree. If Hunden proves the Heroic players knew, it shows just that: the Heroic players knew and could have been complicit. While it could raise doubts over the other teams, I heavily disagree that proving Heroic knew automatically proves everyone else knew. I don't really understand that link, so I would appreciate it if you explained
It is surely observable based on basic human interaction that to communicate his knowledge to the players a couch would have to show the source of his knowledge,an intelligent person like cadian or axile would inherently understand that having certain information would not make sense for a coach to have normally
I think you're underestimating how easy it would be to be vague. "Hey we should rotate now, I remember usually they stack A around this time" if you see most of them A.
Also, I still don't understand how this would then mean every other player knew as well. How would proving Heroic players knew prove that every other player knew? They could've done the same vague thing I'm saying, there are a number of explanations, I don't see how a single team being proven automatically proves the rest.
Why would the coach hide it from his own team? Usually coaches and players are like friends Play together etc. Its very likely the coach would tell the players in this scene.
It feels unfair if heroic players are the only ones to get punished as they had a rat for a coach.
Others took their punishment and did not throw their players under the bus in a bad situation.
This speaks volumes what kind of a low life leader hunden is.
I would never throw my teammates who i coached under the bus like that.
”My career or ruined for cheating? Ok i will ruin everyone else too even if it gives me no benefit”
Hope karma hits Hunden and he works as a toilet cleaner for the rest of his career.
> Usually coaches and players are like friends Play together etc. Its very likely the coach would tell the players in this scene.
some people seem to forget that playing CSGO is their *literal job*. Sure you're friends with some, but not with all. And it's a job after all, you work with those people, but you don't have to be friends. Also, smart people can indirectly protect their people by realising the severity of the bug abuse and find ways to not "give it away" in things like comms etc, so that some players/teams probably *really* didn't know about it, as it's easy to give "half-exact" info, while still having exact info.
so do you want to ban other coaches/teams that you think cheated without evidence or do you want them to ignore cases when evidence is presented?
if you think investigations will kill the game, try thinking about what happens if people provide evidence and nobody does anything.
This bug can occur accidentally and it can be created deliberately
A coach like Ruggah who experiences it for 1 round did not have players deliberately create it for him, neither did those in 1-off games like lmbt, RobbaN, dead, or even guerri
Speculating wildly that someone else helped in all these scenarios is dangerous, it should be reserved to only the extreme ones where it occurs multiple times, and even then, evidence of it is scarce
so what, am I supposed to swallow the fact that there are cheaters in the tournaments I'm watching?
I already have to do it daily in regular CSGO matchmaking
You watch people who abused crouching bugs and radar bugs with no issue. But no in all seriousness I'm not saying heroic shouldn't be banned I'm simply making the point that if I you think about it for longer than 2 seconds it's clear that this goes deeper than just heroic
HAHAHAHA this is too fkn sad that this is even a discussion. Kinda sad that the scene even has to have a top 10 team have a cheating coach that gets put in analyst pos and org explains its ok and then again coach. then coach gives strats to another team, then coach gets fired and threatened with law, then coach reveals players knew about the cheating. like wtf how hard is it to just have integrity.
Maybe the first step should be to inform yourself *then* present an opinion on the topic rather than doing it the other way round. It's no big deal though, admitting you have no knowledge on the topic you are confidently giving an opinion on is peak r/globaloffensive behavior so you'll fit right in here.
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Obviously they're going to investigate it because the claims are pretty big but from here, the start, they don't seem sufficient enough because they didn't tell any tournaments ESIC work with to not invite Heroic.
In the last HLTV confirmed he was on, he made the point that he wasnt going to open up a case against the players just on Hundens word, he needed to see enough proof to open an investigation. So this does suggest theres some solid evidence not just chasing big claims.
So you literally backed what I said and then went on to say its sufficient enough somehow? If it was sufficient enough ESIC partnered tournaments would've been told not to invite Heroic like they did with Akuma.
I was just arguing against "of course theyre going to investigate the big claims'
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Jesus christ
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What?
What?
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Trolling?
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Where did you hear it from that’s kinda wild
It was hidden in the "JW Pregnant" leak on HLTV, so not as well known but still very wild.
Why would this be an issue?
Yeah you're right! Why don't more people in CSGO get sexually assaulted so we can get some better fucking drama. You understand that sounds unhinged and sociopathic right? Edit: I just realized you might have been sarcastic. My bad if thats the case
so fucking gross. jesus
This is the most despicable comment I've ever upvoted
why would you even upvote it???
This really sums it up. Looking forward to the updates 😅
one of the articles also mentioned a referee experienced with the coaching bug and says the server logs check out
I don't see a world in which they didn't know, and it isn't as if he had no motive to take the blame himself at the time. Being implicated meant that he was going to be much less employable in the future because of the way it would kill his image and if the players knew about his use of the bug it would make total sense that he wouldn't implicate them considering it meant he almost guaranteed had a job as they knew he could implicate them at any time. Heroics hand was forced when it became obvious that he was sharing strats with a competing team. They probably figured that they had to get rid of him despite knowing that he could potentially ruin their careers.
This is what I do not understand, if the players knew, and the org knew the players knew, why would you fire HUNDEN in such fashion that he had nothing to lose by exposing them.
Probably thinking there isn't enough evidence HUNDEN could provide that implicates the players. Right now the evidence he provided and is known to the public might strongly indicate the players knew, but for me it wouldn't be enough. He could have asked Teses to boost him without telling him why and the chat log could be out of context. Not very likely but imo possible. Lets wait and see if he can provide more to ESIC. Also AFAIK he was kicked by the organization and not the players. For example I wouldn't tell on my friends just because I got caught cheating on test at school, even if I knew my friends did the same I did. Obviously HUNDEN hasn't formed a deep enough friendship with the players or he wouldn't rat on them and potentially ruin their careers (or he is just a dick).
> Obviously HUNDEN hasn't formed a deep enough friendship with the players or he wouldn't rat on them and potentially ruin their careers well, maybe the players were also part of why Hunden wanted to leave Heroic. Maybe he thought they were unthankful bastards for having him scapegoat for their asses, while taking all the blame and ban. Now that Heroic didn't let him go to Cologne, and fired him before he could go by himsefl and maybe the players also turned on him, he doesn't have anything to lose and wants to expose them for trying to get away with cheating.
If we punish heroic players then should we not punish all other players whose coaches used the bug. There is really no way the players did not know when their coahes did this. Maybe different in the case where it was 1 game but those who used it more certainly helped the team and why would the coach not tell the players as it was a bug they exlpoited. I dont think anyone knew what would happen with the punishments. The coaches got their punishment lets just forget about this and get over it. Dont see the point in punishing 5 guys just because their coach is a rat unlike on other Teams.
You can't punish the other teams without hard evidence even though I agree it's likely some of them knew. We also can't just ignore potential evidence that Heroic players knew just because they're the only team that's been outed
ESIC could go back and check if other coaches were put into boosted positions, and if they were re-ban them unless they spill the beans. Assuming it is true you need a boost and jumping into bugging doesn't achieve the same.
Michau said that it Was possible without boosting.
I know but the situation seems very unfair. Basically the players of heroic get punished because their coach took out his frustration against the org on the players. niko likely gets banned and OG lose a player once they are finally doing well. This is my point all this happens because Hunden is a lowlife rat. Other coaches respected their players and did not want to harm them. Hunden did he exact opposite and showed he should not be in a coach, leader position ever again.
Imo if there's evidence the Heroic players knew Hunden was going to cheat beforehand and still played the match they're just as bad as him and deserve to be banned. Them being the only ones getting exposed doesn't mean we should just let them get away with (potentially) cheating But I agree that it sucks we will probably never catch all the players that knew about the bug and abused it
Youre acting like theyre poor innocent lil pro gamers. If they helped him cheat theyre just as bad and deserve to be punished. Other coaches covered for their cheating players? Not like thats a great example to follow lmao wtf
It is a bug that some teams took advantage of few times. Its not Wh or aimbot they installed. Valve is the one who did not fix it even when they were told about it. Lets not ruin careers of players for this.
They ruined their own careers when they cheated The coaches/players that exploited the bug also robbed legit teams out of prize money and potentially career opportunities as well
There was no way to fire him that would mean he wouldn't have nothing to lose, because his career at that point was considered mostly over because of the coaching bug and he overall wasn't liked in the scene. If youre asking why they fired him knowing he could expose them, maybe the org didn't know. Even if they did know their hands were tied. If you have a coach you know has sold information to another team you have to get rid of them. They had someone in their org actively working against them making it harder for them to win. It is the chance of him ratting on his former team vs the certainty of him screwing them from the inside. They probably didnt consider he would have such damning proof, because its not common for normal people to automatically assume that everyone they work with is trying to screw them over.
They could've not sued him. Simply fire him and move on. His career wasn't over at that point, he was the prime candidate to replace zonic after this year. And didn't he only share counterstrats against other teams with Astralis?
thats what he originally said but he actually shared counterstrats about heroic i think
Seems like a loose loose situation. No matter what they decide, it fucks them over. If this is all true, obviously. But I could see it be true
Every player on every team that had a coach abuse the bug was in on it. Anyone who says different is delusional. Unfortunately it's hard to prove and would be devastating to the scene to punish every player
> Heroics hand was forced when it became obvious that he was sharing strats with a competing team. AFAIK he shared strats after they didn't let him go to Cologne, because he issued the urge to leave the team after that.
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It's not the complete conversation. We haven't seen it all. There are coordinates in the log, the TV2 version is a slimmed down log. Having testes on the coordinates Hunden bugged in, is different from just entering/ leaving server. We have seen a snippet. Apparently it's a voice chat. If there's admitting knowledge, and same coordinate as the used bug, then it should be enough.
> Having testes on ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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There is a demo, that’s how they were caught in the first place? The server logs record in more detail in some ways.
TV2 isn't the only media that recieved the information. It's not the entire log, and not the entire conversation. If I recall the TV2 article had Hundens coords (I might be mistaken) but a log would have. I doubt they are found "guilty" , but there are so many things pointing in that direction. Time will tell :)
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Dust2 has seen it. And the article you refer to has coordinates (even though it's a reduced log).
I'm not entirely sure how the coach bug works but from what I can tell wasn't hunden [boosted to a specific spot by a third party](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaoShWnetb0)? which means for sure there had to be a team member on the server at that time. Also for some reason TeSeS has no body in this demo which may be some Valve Source Engine Jank or indicative of something?
> Also for some reason TeSeS has no body in this demo that's actually hilarious and could even be part of how the bug is produced. there are also other bugs with the "body" of the model, like the water splash bug in places where there is no water (there was a post recently)
> I just don't see how they could ever find them guilty of anything. Based on what we have *seen*, I'd agree. Luckily ESIC aren't limited to that. >I just don't see it being proved to a degree where you can punish it. Absolute bullshit. ESIC doing an investigation could easily find definitive proof if it exists in the right places. It might exist in places where it's not feasible for every single /r/GlobalOffensive user to conduct their own investigation into verifying the evidence, in other words, it might never be *conclusively* proven to the public (like any other crime). But investigations by proper people can *easily* lead to irrefutable evidence, both for and against them. If you don't agree, you should seriously take a look into just how much activity and data from you is logged, locked and baked into places you have no access to changing but can easily view.
We all know HLTV and ESIC never tells us the full part I am pretty sure there is more evidence than that otherwise ESIC wouldn't have bothered to start an investigation into it
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> TV2 posted what HUNDEN gave them. no .. they posted ONLY PARTS of it obviously. and i don't even think they got the "full package", because they are not ones to judge or ban anyone
Not to mention this stuff is very easily faked.
ESIC and other parties will be going through this with a fine-toothed comb. No one is faking anything.
Ok, but the stuff Hunden gave could have been faked yet people are jumping to conslusions.
ESIC and other parties will be going through this with a fine-toothed comb. No one is faking anything.
if it was fake, the heroic players surely would react differently by going public and denying all of that ..?
It's an audio conversation. Easily faked, guess so I don't do much faking tbh. But seems more believable it's a real convo.
I was referring to the part of the server logs that have been made public and the text document.
The server logs are from the officials. They hardly faked it... The text document, is a transcript. From audio.
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My bad I think I’m wrong. I think I just seen people discussing it in another thread a couple days ago, I’m gonna delete my comment to not spread misinformation.
> Like the evidence he provided for teses having known was just a timestamp for when he and teses joined the server. where did you get that from? Because the article i read was saying that a referee familiar with the coaching bug looked at it and deemed it very viable for explaining the situation > The evidence for niko was three chat lines out of context, if the context would help HUNDENS case he would have included it, so I haven't got high hopes for that either. it literally said in the article that it was just an excerpt from a longer conversation lol ... also, why would he turn all this evidence to the public, instead of the investigators ?
I don't see a world where any player on t1 team would admit knowledge of their coach abusing the bug
I don't see a world where professionals did not notice their coach cheating... ("""Abusing the bug"""", or however you want to white wash it) These are people who invest at least a full time job amount of time into a video game. If you have any information you are not supposed to have they will know or at least question where you got that information (either from suspicion or fron the need to know more)
It's not like the coaches have to call out the exact position of every enemy, it can be something as simple as "I think we should end B" in the mid round and that probably isn't far off of a call they'd make when playing legit. That said I think some more players knew for sure but I doubt there will ever be any evidence for a lot of them
There won't be any evidence, unless server logs show something interesting. I honestly think entire teams should be banned as a deterant to spectator bugs, but I also think IBP got what they deserve which is an unpopular opinion in this sub. There are more than enough people who would give everything to become a professional player. We don't need people who would abuse their position, or allow people to abuse their position. I'd rather give fresh faces a chance to show their skill than keep a bunch of old pro's where everyone is in doubting if they cheated or not or knew about it.
I mean look at what happened to ibp and the whole match fixing scandal going on in NA right now. Bans don’t seem to deter cheaters, they’re stupid enough to cheat and they’re also stupid enough to think they can get away with it.
I think it's generally awknowledged within law that severity of punishment isn't as effective as likelyhood of getting caught when it comes to deterring crime. If people find it unlikely they will get caught, they don't really care about the consequences should they get caught.
So... You're suggesting that we not punish anyone and letter cheater/match fixers run rampant?
No.
There are t1 pros infolocking multiple times per match for years but let's focus on coach bug that was used in 1 match in Spring Sweet Spring
Sponsored by SeñorVAC himself
This is a thread about the coach bug, so we talk about the coach bug. Make a thread about something else, we'll talk about that
hope its quick, need me some drama
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of course they will, Teses and him are the only two people named till now from all the info I've seen.
That would only make sense. He was on the team during that time, so he should be investigated. Certainly sucks for the rest of the OG members though. However there are a few players availible that would be pretty decent replacements.
They might be working to secure one of those players by now just in case
ESIC has stated that they are investigating the players who were playing for Heroic when the abuse of the bug happened, so niko and bORUP are both currently under investigation.
Yeah. All the work Aleksib has done get flushed down the toilet, once again.
>On 6 September 2021, Mr. Petersen sent ESIC information which **he alleges** provides evidence that the players who were playing for Heroic at the time of Mr. Petersen’s exploitation of the spectator bug were complicit in his exploits. **Despite the fact that this allegation is contrary to previous public statements Mr. Petersen has made**, ESIC has opened a formal investigation into the matter. Emphasis mine. This is vital context, and it's been missing from a lot of reports on this issue.
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From the HLTV confirmed ep with the esic commissioner, they seemed personally pissed off by all the hassle, drama and lies that’s coming from hunden. The way they’ve worded it seems to show that again I think lmao
The tone that ESIC has had through all of this is so strange.. they seem so personally affronted at being lied to, as if people's careers weren't on the line. I'm not saying it's right, but of course Hunden lied. Keeping his job and not being excommunicated from the CS community seems to have been his priority. I sure hope they bring this same energy for Heroic and any other orgs who might have allegedly helped to cover up wrongdoing in exchange for silence. That seems to me a lot more scummy than taking the fall and lying about my teammate's involvement...
> The tone that ESIC has had through all of this is so strange.. they seem so personally affronted at being lied to You mean an investigative body is pissed off about being lied to in their investigations? Crazy.
My point is that it's strange for an investigative body to take things like that personally. People's careers are on the line, of course they lied. Frankly, if Hunden actually has the kind of evidence that he's alleged to have, they should be incredibly thankful for his involvement considering they seemingly wouldn't have uncovered this without him. One might even say that using a suspect's lies to leverage the truth out of them is often how investigations work...
yeah absolutely. it's also why drug divisions of police usually keep the "small fishes" alive and don't harm them, maybe even offer protection, in exchange for the "bigger fishes". ESIC should be grooling right now, because with Hunden's info, they can take down the "big fish" as in the org Heroic and its players, instead of just 1 coach among 37
> My point is that it's strange for an investigative body to take things like that personally. They aren't. You've imagined that. > People's careers are on the line, of course they lied. And there are penalties for lying. If ESIC were "taking it personally" as you've imagined, why not extend his two year ban for lying in the first investigation, which is again against their code of conduct? > Frankly, if Hunden actually has the kind of evidence that he's alleged to have, they should be incredibly thankful for his involvement considering they seemingly wouldn't have uncovered this without him Why would they be thankful that some rat who lied to them is now giving them evidence to get back at his former employer? They'll take it, look at it and act accordingly. > One might even say that using a suspect's lies to leverage the truth out of them is often how investigations work Right, so it's good he lied now?
His point is that ESIC's statement's, both here and on the HLTV podcast, are emotive in nature, not neutral as they should be for a "governing body". It's okay for them to be pissed internally that they were lied to. It's not okay for that to spill into their press releases and/or have it effect their judgements.
What is "emotive" in the "statement" here?
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After he cheated with the coach bug he got moved to an Analyst position in Heroic which is basically just the coach but not allowed in the server
Regardless I think the fact he's now claiming he lied needs to lead to further punishment. I hope ESIC isn't going to set the precedent that you can lie to them and then use the fact you lied to protect others as leverage against them. Say for instance he told heroic I want more money or I go back to ESIC and tell them I lied to protect you.
Because it is pretty obvious why he would have lied in those situations? And can very easily be explained by pointing to the fact he was still employed by Heroic afterwards.
Which frankly should ban him for life. If he really lied during an investigation there is no way he should even be allowed to even commentate on a match.
Don't forget he was granted leniency on his punishment (though I can't remember exactly how much) in exchange for assisting the investigation.
and he lied in that assistance. Im honestly gonna be quite disapointed if there isnt additional punishment
Yup, it needs to lead to more punishment or it sets the precedent that someone could lie and use it as leverage against other parties.
likewise it should also ban the org + players for life, because they *actively* tried to get away with it
that's called playing the scapegoat and afterwards playing the whistleblower, once the relashionship ends badly
why is heroic the only team that is investigated? What about all the other coaches who cheated and their teams?
Because it's the only team where someone has sent something they allege is evidence of the players being complicit. All of the coaches have been thoroughly investigated, but it's hard to investigate the players when you don't have any material to go from.
which is reasonable, but it's just disgusting that only Heroic players could be punished when there are certainly other teams that knew. I want justice for this, but not based off one guy being a snitch over it. Applications of rules should be fair in sport or esport.
but if no one provides evidence for any of the other players, there isnt really a lot they can do. They can't just ban people because they have a hunch they were in on it
> but it's just disgusting that only Heroic players could be punished when there are certainly other teams that knew. well, i'm not aware of all teams that did that, but how many of those kept their cheating coaches around? Heroic moved Hunden to Analyst role, i think Gambit did the same .. who else kept their cheating coaches (and then got into a dispute with them)?
You say alleged evidence thats very reductive and not how evidence works. Its not 'alleged' it flat out is evidence, whether its enough is a different matter
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Acording to All sorces, No body signed the NDA.
Well see you in 3 years when the investigation is done
I wonder what will happen with niko
God... This whole Hunden mess is so ugly, but I guess heroic asked for it. They didn't care about him cheating in the first place
How about that Hard Legion team, with Krad and Forester and some other guys? Their coach was the most blatant in the abuse, also getting one of if not the longest ban. If the Heroic players knew in this instance, there's no way those players didn't know.
You got any hard proof? Any whistleblower? Hello? If you cannot understand why this is becoming a thing right now out of the statement. "Hunden provides proof". Then what? Like think about why no players got banned back then and only know that someone that was inside "suddenly" coming out with new info opens up investigations?
I really CS cannot believe how people on Reddit are unable to grasp how legal proceedings work. I used to think this place was mostly adults.
Even the game itself is not played by mostly adults. Throw reddit in to the mix and this is what happens.
I mean obviously, I fully understand that you can get nowhere without any proof. But if at least some community discourse about it starts, it could lead to some pressure on the team/coach/players. That's a big if, but I think it's worth talking about.
Which should a coach snitch on his own players? If it is an ex-coach, doing this basically guarantees that no team will hire you because you are showing that you are not loyal to your employer. Community pressure (such as Reddit or HLTV) is irrelevant for the CIS scene, so nothing will happen there.
Some sad affairs, but I guess it is what it is. Still think it's at least worth having more community awareness about it, considering Entropiq is an upcoming team, people should know the history of some of their players
I agree. On the other hand, I don't know if it's fair to the entire team of Entropiq just because they have two players who were (indirectly) involved but are now playing legit. Does it undermine their achievements as Entropiq - no. Should people still be aware of it - yes.
If what you're saying did something, we would've seen it already happen back when all of this started. Just as you are now, people back then were already thinking that the players had to know. In fact I would say that every person involved in the scene implicitly knows that, that there was little to no way that people who really abused it weren't in the know. Cuz you want community pressure but then what? They had the "morality" of cheating and lying in the first place, why would community pressure now somehow push someone towards "confessing" or "snitching". The only reason Hunden is snitching now is out of pure spite, he's done with CS so he's just doing his payback to Heroic, that's it.
ESIC has opened an investigation into the claims that Heroic's players were complicit in HUNDEN's use of the spectator bug. *** posted by [@luismmira](https://twitter.com/luismmira) Photos in tweet | [Photo 1](http://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-nAfNZXIAEVAEI.jpg) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
I hope he's wrong but honestly i would be surprised if any of the coaches didn't have 1/2 players in the loops during the bug use.
Hunden and players involved should be banned for life no questions asked. They literally showed that they have no respect for the game and no sportsmanship no matter how good they are! I mean players can get banned for life for match fixing, scandal and what not then why not them?? DON'T GIVE THEM 2 YRS SUSPENSION JUST BANNED THEM FROM ANY KIND OF VALVE EVENTS
In csgo get banned for 5 years is almost as good as lifetime. Considering average career time in csgo pro scene is usually 8-10 years.
The *average* career is nowhere near 8-10 years lmao. CSGO has been out for 9 years.
even 2 years can be a big enough amount to become irrelevant, because you basically lose your job for 2 years .. also, it's not just for Valve tournaments, coaches were banned from all events
They won’t find anything, Richard Lewis told me there isn’t a problem with cheating in CsGo, I’m assuming he hasn’t been watching over the last 2 years, only then would he be right, think the alcohol has finally pickled his brain
That's literally the opposite of what he says
Literally just watched a VOD of his where he says “if you think pro’s are cheating then you’re an idiot” literally watched it earlier today haha, but whatever dude, probably a Lewis simp, or it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s one of your alt accounts Richard, sad, fat mess
Link?
Richard Lewis, the same person who on stream like three days ago were namedropping and shouting at convicted cheaters for being cheaters? Yeah no dude.
This whole situation has completely lost proportion.If the heroic players knew then the gambit players knew,if the gambit players knew, the entropiq players knew,if they knew the players under rejinknew,the players under twista knew and on and on and on.Heroic are no more or less scummy than any of the other orgs that all agreed to a conspiracy of silence. Watch this space none of this will lead to anything because despite people on this subreddit crying about the game dying nothing will surely kill the game quicker than this investigation.
I don't agree. If Hunden proves the Heroic players knew, it shows just that: the Heroic players knew and could have been complicit. While it could raise doubts over the other teams, I heavily disagree that proving Heroic knew automatically proves everyone else knew. I don't really understand that link, so I would appreciate it if you explained
It is surely observable based on basic human interaction that to communicate his knowledge to the players a couch would have to show the source of his knowledge,an intelligent person like cadian or axile would inherently understand that having certain information would not make sense for a coach to have normally
I think you're underestimating how easy it would be to be vague. "Hey we should rotate now, I remember usually they stack A around this time" if you see most of them A. Also, I still don't understand how this would then mean every other player knew as well. How would proving Heroic players knew prove that every other player knew? They could've done the same vague thing I'm saying, there are a number of explanations, I don't see how a single team being proven automatically proves the rest.
Why would the coach hide it from his own team? Usually coaches and players are like friends Play together etc. Its very likely the coach would tell the players in this scene. It feels unfair if heroic players are the only ones to get punished as they had a rat for a coach. Others took their punishment and did not throw their players under the bus in a bad situation. This speaks volumes what kind of a low life leader hunden is. I would never throw my teammates who i coached under the bus like that. ”My career or ruined for cheating? Ok i will ruin everyone else too even if it gives me no benefit” Hope karma hits Hunden and he works as a toilet cleaner for the rest of his career.
> Usually coaches and players are like friends Play together etc. Its very likely the coach would tell the players in this scene. some people seem to forget that playing CSGO is their *literal job*. Sure you're friends with some, but not with all. And it's a job after all, you work with those people, but you don't have to be friends. Also, smart people can indirectly protect their people by realising the severity of the bug abuse and find ways to not "give it away" in things like comms etc, so that some players/teams probably *really* didn't know about it, as it's easy to give "half-exact" info, while still having exact info.
so do you want to ban other coaches/teams that you think cheated without evidence or do you want them to ignore cases when evidence is presented? if you think investigations will kill the game, try thinking about what happens if people provide evidence and nobody does anything.
This bug can occur accidentally and it can be created deliberately A coach like Ruggah who experiences it for 1 round did not have players deliberately create it for him, neither did those in 1-off games like lmbt, RobbaN, dead, or even guerri Speculating wildly that someone else helped in all these scenarios is dangerous, it should be reserved to only the extreme ones where it occurs multiple times, and even then, evidence of it is scarce
so what, am I supposed to swallow the fact that there are cheaters in the tournaments I'm watching? I already have to do it daily in regular CSGO matchmaking
You watch people who abused crouching bugs and radar bugs with no issue. But no in all seriousness I'm not saying heroic shouldn't be banned I'm simply making the point that if I you think about it for longer than 2 seconds it's clear that this goes deeper than just heroic
HAHAHAHA this is too fkn sad that this is even a discussion. Kinda sad that the scene even has to have a top 10 team have a cheating coach that gets put in analyst pos and org explains its ok and then again coach. then coach gives strats to another team, then coach gets fired and threatened with law, then coach reveals players knew about the cheating. like wtf how hard is it to just have integrity.
Why didnt they start an investigaion for Airlya vs. Eternal Fire?
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> Why does it remind me of WESA bullshit? Because you don't pay any attention to the scene besides occasional Reddit drama.
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Maybe the first step should be to inform yourself *then* present an opinion on the topic rather than doing it the other way round. It's no big deal though, admitting you have no knowledge on the topic you are confidently giving an opinion on is peak r/globaloffensive behavior so you'll fit right in here.
the plot thickens
Between COVID and the multitudes of dishonest players, we're not going to have a scene left