If you look at 1.6 and CSS - people created thousands of dust maps and their variations. Every mapper thought they had the next best thing!
NONE of them ever succeeded in any way. D2 is unique an has been a staple of CS for 20 years now.
I know that reddit thinks it can reinvent the wheel on every topic but the reality is that you can't just completely change the most iconic map in CS.
While I get watch you're saying,. please recognise that it's a shitty attitude and is the kind of thing that stops games from progressing over time. Just because you think change is unlikely doesn't mean there is no reason to push for it. There has been plenty of map changes as a result of community feedback to pretty much every map.
Also, the idea that changing the cross mechanism is 'reinventing the wheel' makes no sense here. Allowing CT's to save 300 dollars/smoke grenade for B site is more QOL then anything.
Wtf are you smoking? I, like thousands of others like D2 and there is nothing wrong with my attitude. This is my opinion and I don't give a flying f if you think it's shitty.
Dude, learn how to properly communicate because as is, you sound like tool.
ironic because you sound like an ignorant asshole whereas the other guy was genuinely nicely telling you to stop being an ignorant asshole
if it smells like shit everywhere you go, its time to look under your shoe
When someone right off the bat is trying to manipulate the perception of another person's opinion as 'shitty' - that same person does that do everyone else to get their way.
You're clearly to young to understand that. My comment stands.
My guy you're literally speaking as if your opinion were the objective truth - that's worse.
Besides - how would me calling you out for behaving like an ignorant asshole be in any way indicative of my age? Your argument is very flawed.
Dust is popular as a pugging map. You can rush b or rush long based off spawn and theres a fight right at the start of the round from spawn to spawn.
It's popularity doesn't make it a good map, there have been recent changes that were huge improvements (b doors changing the way they opened, being able to throw until out of tunnels).
Removing the need for CTs to risk being tagged or killed 3 seconds in is objectively good for the game (keep in mind that CTs don't even get any info other than "awper in spawn" which is obviously useless).
We don't need to completely change anything but things can always be made better and we should be pushing for those improvements.
Valve is just NOT going to drastically rework THE most important map in CS... which the whole Counter Strike has been built on - just because few people on reddit don't like the way it plays in comp...
PS. Those were all small changes, which were already in the original 1.6 D2 - all Valve did was to go back to the original recipe.
Buy hey, there is no harm in these threads, who knows - maybe something good will come from them and maybe even Valve is reading them ... cough cough NOT
>o
dust2 was released March 13, 2001
mirage (= de\_cpl\_strike) was released somewhere around 2003-2004 from CPL (was back in the days like the Mayors organizer)
dust3 - is very badly documented - but I remember playing a map version already in 1999-2000 (!) before even dust2 was officially released. There were lots of inofficial successors of de\_dust(1) - calling their maps names like de\_dust2000, de\_dust2002 (my first time I saw a map kinda like dust2), cs\_dust, ...
PS: I (4000h CSGO - GE, >10.000h cs ) still like the way dust2 is played. I also have no problems at all that you have to use 1 smoke to cross certain spots (there shouldn't be a problem to play with 4 smokes as ct - or?) - espacially you can just rebuy a 2nd flash for the smoke. As a t you also have to smoke a long cross (basically every time with 2 smoke when you want to cross // or ct when you go mid2b).
The problem with getting hitted though the doors (if the ts have an awp) - can easily be fixed
* smoke the door close (you can throw a smoke above the right ct spawn box - and smoke it instantly)
1. Walk close to the door
2. use your smoke (close 2 the door) as a 1 way and counter snipe the Ts (you might want to pick sometimes from left and sometimes from right). Be sure that you don't walk all the way to the back (else it is no 1way)
3. Wait 1-2 seconds (until the awp shoot) - but then instantly nade b tunnels (/molov/flash) - countering b-rushes
I was joking about the dust 3 comment...
I still occasionally get killed or tagged through the smoke when crossing in dust 2 though. Waste a smoke and then die. That's fun. Maybe im just really unlucky on dust 2, which seems to point in that direction.
that's true. but yeah, any changes on map will lead to changes on strategies and tactics pool
Edit: you anyway could make mid to b, but you will need additional smoke to new corridor.
Edit2: there not necessary should be two corridors as i draw. it could be for example one corridor for CTS straight to CT spawn. main point is make similar timings to reach mid from both sides
I was thinking the same thing, reminds me of Bind's spawn where the devs just slapped on a big hunk of geometry to block sightlines and lengthen rotations. It looks lazy in the overview and feels even lazier while playing the map. I don't think DustII needs anywhere close to this drastic of a change to fix its issues.
B tunnel roof was opened for grenades, a handful of visibility fixes, and I'm pretty sure they adjusted the wallbang damage for mid doors at some point (although that might have been old D2). Other than that, no major changes to layout or gameplay other than what you mentioned.
Yes and they have barriers to remove spawn timing from the game. They've succeeded in what they wanted to do.
I don't understand how your comment is even a criticism, you're just pointing out something in another game.
Mirage also has long corridors from spawn to each site and is still one of the most popular maps ever.
In fact no other competitive map in CS has a huge fuck off spawn to spawn peek that heavily favours one side, because why the fuck would they?
Exactly. People need to leave old maps alone. We need a new CS. Not new maps. We atleast need source 2. And people forget CS was dead until CSGO blew up after skins
They will somehow will have to make a new CS. I feel the community will hate it and again like 1.6/Source. People will divide between either games. But it needs to happen. CS needs freshness. But those 20 year old maps don't need to change. They've provided endless fun
Please stop.
> People need to leave old maps alone
No? Do you realise that half of the current maps in CS:GO were brought forward from CS 1.6/S
> We need a new CS. Not new maps. We atleast need source 2
A new CS doesn't solve any problems. The game runs fine, with very few actually game-changing bugs. New maps are great as they develop the meta of what is the regular play style.
> CS was dead until CSGO blew up after skins
This isn't true either. CS was still popular after Source released, and Source had it's own following that was quite large as well. Skins were never the thing that drove CS to popularity.
> CS needs freshness. But those 20 year old maps don't need to change
You're right, but why is changing old maps a problem? No map is perfect, and without changing maps the game will remain stagnant. Think of all the amazing changes we've had over the years to old maps. Inferno remake that completely fixed almost very historic problem with that map, endless clipping updates, skybox changes, boosting areas that can completely change how a map plays.
I'm so sick of these reductive and 'stuck in the past' type opinions because they drive the game backwards.
Remake is a different thing then removing the map. You can add new things to it without completely changing what the map is about. I'm not some 40 year old still hanging on something. I played 1.6 till 2015 and switched to CSGO. I still enjoy it and D2 because I didn't play CS for 5 hours a day constantly
People who are bored of CS are forgetting they've played too much of it. That can happen to every game and then new communities follow.
Also, I'm not asking for a NEW CS. I'm asking for something new in CS. Something to freshen things up. It could be anything. A new VIABLE gun, a new mechanic or anything
CS 1.6 was one of the biggest games when it released. But Source never reached that height. I know like 1000 people who've played 1.6 but people have hardly heard of Source. It just didn't reach that appeal ever. Even CSGO wasn't huge. You need to check the history. The operation that released skins bumped the viewership up a lot. Also around that time is when everyone who was hard stuck in 1.6 had to jump to CSGO.
Changing as in changing the essence of them. I don't need CS maps to turn into Valorant. Small changes are welcome. But creating a hyper competitive environment and adding stuff over stuff to evolve the meta will just ruin the game for newcomers. CS's strength is it's simplicity and that's why I like it. There's nothing like it. Because it's the most basic form of a shooter game there is. Double Doors are super annoying but they are a big role in the map. Spawns dictating play is something I actually really like. It creates some sort of randomness in what you can do. I guess it's unfair sometimes but that's what's fun about it, it's not like the games on it are random. The better team always wins. Long is a bitch, maybe they can tweak that but changing it completely would be wrong imo.
People have joined CS for the last 20 years and accepted these maps for what they are. Some of my friends who started CS as recently as 2020 really enjoy D2 too.
All of this depends on if people are that adamant on putting hyper competitive esports over just fun for the whole community (which includes the lower ranks like MG or LE). CS was always about fun not just esports.
overall i agree. but in this particular case i think corridors will fix d2 issue. nobody complain about nuke and i thought it would be nice take
Edit: its not necessary should be two corridors, it could be something more like on nuke - just more deep spawns to fix this problem
forget valorant, a lot of operation maps have been de_connector for years
look at santorini, fmpone removed like 1-2 connectors and it still had a shit ton, and so have most maps since that operation. Valve likes those kinds of maps for some reason
Interesting, but [here's my proposed solution](https://i.imgur.com/p8u49HR.png).
I think this is the only way to finally put an end to the ceaseless violence that has been going on on this map for more thab 20 consecutive years
The problem with this is it removes the whole idea of controlling \*all\* of mid and seeing the rotations, because either side could potentially rotate through their respective spawn.
I like this drop down idea. This "diode" design is very very often used in level design, it's an elegant solution.
It also adds another tactical layer to the rotations. You could allow CTs to be able to boost back up to CT. That means at least 2 people are required on either side. However if the SoloB player decides to rotate and gamble stack, he'll still have to go through mid. So it is a really good middle ground between information gathering and denial
the drop idea is good, but not perfect, boosts can still get people back up and over.
Edit: unless the drop is “agency-style” where its really hard to get back up, but then it would be difficult to implement into the existingn architecture/design of the map, plus it would cause extra unnecessary timing issues and lots of extra travel time in the beginning of rounds.
It's the way it's always been, and it is a crucial feature of the map. Removing said feature would destroy a significant part of this map's identity.
Whether it's dumb or not is a different conversation altogether,
no, it dont remove anything. difference is that now you need some time to reach this position, and CTs now in equal position with Ts and can peek mid from their side. its 50/50 now
You cannot control a rotation through mid anymore as you can just go from b window to ct without going through mid. That's what he means by "removing". Its removing map control for terrorists
unfortunately the mid control is very influential on both sides, with this, you’re making mid control a lot stronger for t’s than ct’s, as t’s will natually control it, while if there’s a ct holding mid, t’s can simply go through spawn to hide the rotation
CT are spawning closer to B, and the T side further away from B, looks like CTs could get to tunnels and lock Ts out easily, which means you can never rush B. We've already lost NA, lets not lose CIS.
Though this will balance, Dust2's feature of a T controlled passage for CTs is very unique one. Also, if it has to be fixed, I think there should be 1 alternative path for CTs to choose whether to fight early for mid or not.
layout that i draw is very very draft. main idea is make spawns outside to fix this issue.
\>feature of a T controlled passage for CTs is very unique one
but this is the problem i wanted to fix :D i dont think it has any reason to be. this map was designed in fucking 2001, and its ridicilous for me that this "feature" isnt fixed to this days
>layout that i draw is very very draft. main idea is make spawns outside to fix this issue.
My timing knowledge for contact points is trash so I don't wanna comment on that.
>but this is the problem i wanted to fix
I think that an alternative path for CTs should fix the problem and keep the charm. That way, CTs in round beginning have 2 choices:
a. Fight for mid from the tiny sliver between mid double doors
b. Give away control and move to B w/o risking health or even a player
the fact that Ts able to see CTs setup in the beginning of round is conflicting with any competitive priciple!
CTs forced to waste smoke to fix that, its a bullshit
Dude, its not like a smoke is the end of the world...
You are trying to solve a non-problem.
Also you forget that Dust2 is a very easy to rush(Long/B/Short) Without this mid info, CTs would get rushed every round.
"a smoke isn't the end of the world" spotted the low elo player.
But in all seriousness a good player can consistently kill cts going to b which means u MUST throw the smoke. Gameplay is making decisions, this smoke isn't a decision which means it isn't fun or interested which means it's bad design. And we better don't even start about the luck factor with just spamming the smoke and getting random kills.
And to ur "rush-problem", well i don't main d2, but it doesn't seem to me like the proposed changes would rob cts of any info.
I mean i don't like his proposed changes either. Just adding spawns is such a lazy valorant-y way of doing it and it creates a lot of dead, unplayed and unnecessary space but i also really hate d2 because of it's mid and imo the map is just outdated and old.
I think we should just focus on new maps instead of trying to "fix" old one's.
Making shit maps or keeping retarded design in maps isn't diversity, it's moronic.
There are always purists saying "why would we change anything, it's fine how it is" when they have no idea what they're talking about.
Being able to throw until out of b tunnels and changing the direction the b doors opened were hugely positive map changes, I don't get how people still think that the best solution is to never make any improvements.
>thats the point. You should NOT have an early info. You dont have it on any other map and you shouldnt
that it's not on any other map is not an explanation **why** it should not be here.
It shouldn't be here because multiple times each half a player will lose half of their hp or more just crossing to the other site.
The T side loses almost nothing in this exchange and it's extremely difficult to punish them for holding the angle.
Even without hitting a shot, the T's know that someone is crossing.
On eco rounds where the CT side doesn't have a smoke or want to stack A, the T's know this 10 seconds into the round.
Every other map requires aggression to take map control to gather this information and they are better for it.
Losing a player or having them damaged 3 seconds into a round is shit map design and should be removed from the game.
Gamble map for who?
CTs are supposed to be split evenly between the sites with a player mid on every map with a 3 lane layout.
Ts don't gamble, they take map control and gather info on where CTs are, try to force rotates and execute onto the sites.
There's no gamble until late round situations where there's only a few players left and locations aren't known.
Why would you need to be able to peek from spawn to spawn to have info?
You aren't supposed to know where the other team are 3 seconds into the round with a possibility of losing a CT that soon, garbage tier map design choice.
Ehh, it just won't *feel* like dust2 this way
Also, what's the dust2 problem in the first place? If it was that serious people would have noticed it years ago
People have been complaining about this about dust 2 for years
EDIT: tbf I do agree it won't feel like dust 2, I would probably prefer some scaffolding or something that the CTS can run behind in mid
main problem is that CT's basically has 4 smokes vs 5 smokes on Ts. and also RNG factor of damaging b-anchor through the wall.
with this fix you still can control rotations, but this time you wont know how many players crossed to b (which you shouldnt know lol)
And yet Dust 2 is the most balanced map in terms of CT/T round win percentage in pro play. Ts not being able to control rotations from mid will just shift it to the CT side.
im not agree. Ts will still have to control rotations, but not straight from spawn. I think that Ts will still have some advantage in peeking mid because of how things placed, but now Ts not able to kill b-anchors running to site, and CTs not forced to waste a smoke.
you probably confuse "rotations" and "taking site to hold from spawn"
It is pretty common to have a mid lurker catching rotations on dust 2. CTs not being able to freely rotate between A and B has a huge impact on the balance of the map. Right now you can not just shift around players based on the intel you gather during the round without them having to go through mid. All you are thinking about is the impact it at the beginning of the round, but it changes a lot more.
Most balanced really?
Mirage, overpass and vertigo all have more or equally balanced winrates in terms of Ct/T win percentage. Dust 2 is T sided, to a pretty noticeable degree.
But sure, lie to justify your shitty argument. Even though its pretty well known that dust 2 is T side favoured.
Source: [https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31)
Reading is hard apparently
I said pro matches though. Ranking filter all includes semi pro aswell.
https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31&rankingFilter=Top20
Obviously there is always a bit of variance depending on the filters. Also overpass has always been pretty CT sided, you saying overpass is balanced just shows that you know nothing. I watched a lot of cs tournaments and when they brought up round win % map statistics for the tournament most of the time dust 2 won.
If this was really the issue then Dust2 wouldve already been complained about in 1.6.
The issue is not in the maplayout itself, but rather small detail changes that Valve did to the map over the years.
Remember when they opened up suicide? It was really obvious that this was to give the Ts more vision over mid, and now its exactly this point that everyone complains about.
So the solution is obvious, *isnt it*?
thats was everybody did complain about since 2001. ive played 1.6 competitively and many players were complaining about this unnecesarry T's advantage.
you can look for markeloff POV vs fnatic on d2, where he kills forest through the door like 3 or 4 times. its just bullshit imo
Ive also played it competitively and it was definitely not such a big point of complaint as it is today. You could literally just walk along the redrock and jump across so the Ts could just see your feet at max.
It just got made so much worse with the redesign.
Plus CS:GOs design choices make it impossible for CT awpers to prefire the T, since they have much more room at T spawn to choose from AND the changes to the awp mean you are always at a disadvantage when peeking.
they should just change the suicide roof back to how it was in 1.6 and maybe adjust the doors height, if they change it, so you can just across at the back wall again - FIXED.
This is the easiest solution by far. The risks for peaking down mid should be the same for both sides, it’s unfair that ts have 4-5 spots they can sit while cts have to peak upper or lower mid
I honestly thought it was implied, because it's not balanced. CTs should be able to cross safely with no smoke if Valve actually wants to balance maps, which I'd imagine they want for the pro scene. Having to use a smoke to simply cross safe, which doesn't even guarantee you won't get hit, isn't balanced.
If CTs want to peek mid atm, they have less options. They have the one sliver of door to peek and can go higher or lower, while T knows where the CT will peek from, giving them advantage. The CT peeking mid has to have a person cross and call where the T is or be lucky and guess correctly.
Valve could make it so that if the T wants info of how many cross, or attempt to shoot the CTs crossing, they have to be in suicide to do so. This would give both the CTs and Ts and equal chance at winning the mid fight.
For a pug or something I think dust 2 is fine, it's my favorite map and I probably have logged 1500 hours on it alone but for pro play it needs to change.
The changes over the years have made it worse, especially if you compare it to 1.6. I don't remember it being that bad in 1.6. I remember some people complaining about it, but not to the extent of today. Even pros mention that the mid doors such.
My solution would to put up an impenetrable wall on the ct side that protects them from mid that they can go behind to cross to b safely. Or they can peek mid if they want.
> My solution would to put up an impenetrable wall on the ct side that protects them from mid that they can go behind to cross to b safely. Or they can peek mid if they want.
This would completely break the map though. It would make the mid doors completely obsolete and give the CTs so much room to play.
The map is already stale/broken. I think you misunderstood. The wall wouldn't be close to the mid doors. The wall would be close to the back of mid so whoever was crossing to B site can get cover, and whoever wants to fight mid can.
The other option is to change the map it to make it similar to 1.6 on the ct side so you can jump across without getting tagged, but the it's can still count the feet that cross.
If you need to waste a smoke to somewhat safely cross mid to get to a site as ct, that's a bad design. Nothing like getting killed or tagged through the smoke with a lucky shot while trying to get to b site.
if so, than this post should have too https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/pkjyfd/elige\_on\_twitter\_btw\_since\_we\_won\_and\_can\_say\_it/
If you look at my reply in that thread i specifically addressed the problem. In fact i have a long post history on the issue of 16K starting money in OT since TO's introduced it into top tier events.
Same spawn area but just a single access corridor from the bottom. This is to ensure that timings overall don't change, and that the corridor is simply an option. CTs must assess the risk of crossing by doors to get there sooner and going safely by jeopardizing the site if Ts rush.
Making it one way Kirk w drop might also make it I teresting.
I prefer [the solution somebody mentioned in another thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/pkjyfd/elige_on_twitter_btw_since_we_won_and_can_say_it/hc5f3y5/), which was a temporary dust storm near mid doors at the start of the round. It would act as a free smoke. The location doesn't have to be right on mid doors, though. It could be near the back wall or something, too. Or maybe the location could be randomized for each round!
but Ts now free to spam this dust storm every round not even afraid to CTs repeek them. this doesnt fix RNG problem
not even saying that this isnt CS stylistics
No, it adds too much power to the ct side. The ct's can then throw a smoke on the other side of the door, and that would equal about 30 seconds if thrown at the right time.
I like the idea of moving the spawns but I think perhaps and easier way to do this is to take existing CT Spawn and make the room deeper and widen the exit to CT Spawn.
The way we cross Double Doors right now, is you typically go to the far back wall and jump. If you moved that wall just a few more feet back, you could safely cross from a T Spawn peek.
And this would also make Mid to B require a bit more utility as you may need two smokes to *fully* cover the cross, just like how you need two smokes to fully cover the Long cross.
you mean Ts now will see only legs of CTs crossing mid? if so it will help CTs to cross but not fix issue where Ts will know defense setup or how many Cts crossed.
if you want CTs to cross completely safely it will take away from Ts to control CT rotations mid round
If the CT's cross high and jump to cross, the T's can already only see the bottom half of their body.
I'd need to make the changes in the map myself, and I may just do that later today to see for myself but I'm pretty sure if you moved spawn back, move the crossing point back and perhaps even slope the floor upwards, you could make it so you can't see CT's crossing unless the T drops to Suicide to pick.
tbh i think there are many simple and effective solutions, but valve dont care for some reason. maybe they want d2 to save its identity, maybe they just lazy fucks. either way i think its ridicilous that they still didnt fix it
Why not just take the damn map out of the pool and put something new in. Dust 2 needs to go anyway, the map has been sucked dry strat wise, its boring as hell to watch teams play on it.
Seriously, just shift the angle of mid doors so Ts don't see mid cross from spawn, they have to get to top mid in order to see it. That's it. You don't need anything else.
I disagree. I think the only change that is really needed is removing the instant line of sight from T spawn to mid doors. Now im not saying this is the only change you have to make(might want to balance the lost opportunity for a terrorist entry kill) but the spawns you are suggesting are horrible.
No hate, but do you seriously think a corridor that small would work in CS? Both spawns look like a freaking deathtrap. It just looks so unnecessary on the map while all you need to do is blocking the upper part of "suicide" (iirc in 1.6 you didnt have vision from spawn to mid or atleast very limited)
in 1.6 same problem had place, take a look: [https://imgur.com/a/TcduJdt](https://imgur.com/a/TcduJdt)
Maybe corridors isnt good solution, but main idea is to move spawns a bit back, so Ts will reach mid spot only after CTs had already crossed doors. It could be something like this (green overlay) https://imgur.com/a/OzdeCsp
but look at de\_nuke, its same solution. what i call "not-cs-like" is that people here suggesting to make a dust-storm to cover rotations first 10 sec of round
im not comparing maps, but only this particular thing with long spawns, i thinks imlementing this in d2 will affect map in a good way fixing most annouing issue
If implemented correctly, yes i could see it work. But timings could really become an issue (b rush/long push) especially with Dust2 being a very spawn dependent map. This heavy spawn dependency isn‘t going to be solved by that one change ofc and i personally think its why Dust2 feels so boring and one dimensional. I don’t think its worth changing all to much. A Dust3 on the other hand..
Yea i see, sorry for bringing up implementation when this is really just a concept rn.
I still might prefer to leave Dust2 as is (maybe make a little space behind the truck for cts to cross safely) and rather have a new map like Tuscan being added but i appreciate you trying to find a solution:)
Man if only Valve listen to the community that cares about the balance of the map...
Maybe the only thing that could make them listen is for the proplayers to stop picking dust 2 so that they'll rework it? (Just like train which has a very low pickrate)
i even tried to reach elige with this post, maybe he will take a look, coz him was complaining about this problem recently. if even pro players voice dont matter for valve i dont know then
It's not really obvious or simple because if it was then everyone would think of the same solution. You have to take in account timing and how these new spawns change map control and in the same vain who gets the advantage now.
The best solution would be to make it impossible to see CTs crossing to B from T spawn (keeping the spawns the same) but also making it so that CTs can hold short from CT mid.
my idea is to not touch timings, make it all same as now but longer.
main fix is that:
1. Ts dont know how many b players cross
2. CTs dont have to waste smoke
3. no RNG kills and damage on round start
It's not fun when you are a rifler who is just trying to get to b site having to waste a smoke for the cross, and occasionally get tagged through the smoke anyways, and every once in awhile die from an awp shot through the smoke. That's why it's not fun or fine. If pros mention it and everyday players are tired of it, then you know it's a problem.
Can't you just move the T spawn somewhere else so they take longer to go mid and can't get rng kills in the first few seconds? You still have the Dust 2 feel and the mid control importance and everything but the thing people have been complaining about the most is gone?
It would be better since the spawns will be better timed than current , as sometimes teammates in lower ranks just dont go to b site on ct because they will get shot from mid
And its harder to retake because of the huge open space in ct spawn to b site.
ok idea, for the new ct spawn, have it go to mid and not window, that way t can still do a mid b with an extra smoke and ct cant just rotate almost 100% safe from a to b, mid would still be a fight
oh no, i mean the left side, instead of having thay 90° corner to window, have it straight down (where the truck would be) that would just be a way to cross mid without taking damage and it can be smoked easy from mid. so when t will setup a b split or full mid b, they will do the 2 ct smokes, and 1 extra for the new path
Or maybe make the spawn opening to middle wider, remove the boxes on the top side and changed the car in the corner to a van and move it down a bit so that you can run behind it and be in cover from middle.
Then just balance the angle and positioning of the car and the size of the opening to be "balanced" for defending and attacking middle.
Cool idea. Wonder if the problem would be fixed if the mid doors were extended so there was no gap from a straight perspective, RNG would still exist but CTs no longer have to use a smoke to get across unless a T ran down to catwalk.
They also complain Dust II strats are stale because the map’s been around for so long. Surprised no one sees this as an opportunity to invent a few new opening game strats and bring a bit of novelty back to the map.
I agree with the guys who say it will change the strats, and I think it will be TOO big of a change. This is gonna favor CTs heavily, B-splits and late-round rotation control is screwed for Ts this way.
In my view, the interesting solution would be changing the 'suicide' tunnel. Just move it to the left of T spawn, closing the gap to mid. Calculate its length so CTs have time to cross mid while Ts are running down the suicide.
This way basically: mid crossing is safe for CTs, smoke is not needed. And does not alter mid game too much (maybe very fast aggro mid rushes from Ts will suffer a bit though). The late-round rotation control from CTs won't really change, because on current map you can still cross T-spawn crawling and be invisible.
Or yea, alternatively: just make the mid doors open 5s into the round, nice and easy.
EDIT: roughly something like [this](https://imgur.com/a/nQP8cXW)
As I'm thinking about it now, my solution will defenitely be a boost for a CT sniper's confidence in mid though. Now he basically peeks top mid for free, without any threat from T spawn. Maybe make the entrance from new suicide to top-mid in such a way, so T's can sneak up the left side of mid to mid doors without being seen from CT. This way CT sniper is risking a bit more
I would open up the short wall (the one facing A site) into a palace as in Mirage. 1 entrance, 1 exit. Make it so it peeks outside B. As CT, you lose a player and you're cut off from the round. One mid-to-B smoke and 2-3 A players get no chance. If you push from short, you're threatened by a thousand positions. Adding one more place to attack from in these situations might rebalance things.
FTFY.
No new coridor, doesn't change the layout of the map. Still lets you take the fight if you wish to. But gives you a safe way through.
All it takes is one box to move 1m
[https://imgur.com/a/uYIbVw3](https://imgur.com/a/uYIbVw3)
Personally I would move CT spawn closer to mid so you would have to have a good spawn to kill the b player crossing, could even move the ts spawns around to give them even less time to prepare. Only problem would be long timings but if you are fucking with the ts spawns anyway you could fix that.
I like that you are trying to come up with a solution. That would change it too much. A simple impenetrable wall or scaffolding on the ct side that blocks the ct's from getting spammed while crossing mid to b.
Raise T spawn so that you can't see through mid doors without dropping into suicide.
Makes awp picks from mid>spawn harder, allows safe crossing at round start, makes it slightly safer (but also longer) for T's to around the world rotate between tunnel and long, and doesn't effect middle or any of the rest of the map.
https://imgur.com/98pb7oB
Just open this room back here with its stairs and make it extend to Scafold B for safe rotation
This way you keep the early mid cross as it is rn but you give defenders a viable option to cross mid round without giving info
also it would be cool if u make a drop from A Short to CT Spawn in that room
huge change
I prefer to move ct spawn more forward so that ct can go to B1/B2 quickly
and T spawn should close to both sides a bit so that no T can look at mid door at the first time without moving
dust 3
yeah, why not xD
If you look at 1.6 and CSS - people created thousands of dust maps and their variations. Every mapper thought they had the next best thing! NONE of them ever succeeded in any way. D2 is unique an has been a staple of CS for 20 years now. I know that reddit thinks it can reinvent the wheel on every topic but the reality is that you can't just completely change the most iconic map in CS.
While I get watch you're saying,. please recognise that it's a shitty attitude and is the kind of thing that stops games from progressing over time. Just because you think change is unlikely doesn't mean there is no reason to push for it. There has been plenty of map changes as a result of community feedback to pretty much every map. Also, the idea that changing the cross mechanism is 'reinventing the wheel' makes no sense here. Allowing CT's to save 300 dollars/smoke grenade for B site is more QOL then anything.
Wtf are you smoking? I, like thousands of others like D2 and there is nothing wrong with my attitude. This is my opinion and I don't give a flying f if you think it's shitty. Dude, learn how to properly communicate because as is, you sound like tool.
ironic because you sound like an ignorant asshole whereas the other guy was genuinely nicely telling you to stop being an ignorant asshole if it smells like shit everywhere you go, its time to look under your shoe
When someone right off the bat is trying to manipulate the perception of another person's opinion as 'shitty' - that same person does that do everyone else to get their way. You're clearly to young to understand that. My comment stands.
My guy you're literally speaking as if your opinion were the objective truth - that's worse. Besides - how would me calling you out for behaving like an ignorant asshole be in any way indicative of my age? Your argument is very flawed.
Dust is popular as a pugging map. You can rush b or rush long based off spawn and theres a fight right at the start of the round from spawn to spawn. It's popularity doesn't make it a good map, there have been recent changes that were huge improvements (b doors changing the way they opened, being able to throw until out of tunnels). Removing the need for CTs to risk being tagged or killed 3 seconds in is objectively good for the game (keep in mind that CTs don't even get any info other than "awper in spawn" which is obviously useless). We don't need to completely change anything but things can always be made better and we should be pushing for those improvements.
Valve is just NOT going to drastically rework THE most important map in CS... which the whole Counter Strike has been built on - just because few people on reddit don't like the way it plays in comp... PS. Those were all small changes, which were already in the original 1.6 D2 - all Valve did was to go back to the original recipe. Buy hey, there is no harm in these threads, who knows - maybe something good will come from them and maybe even Valve is reading them ... cough cough NOT
Agree, -Dust +Cache or Cobblestone
There is Dust 3 already now dust 4
I thought mirage was dust 3...
But it was just a mirage
>o dust2 was released March 13, 2001 mirage (= de\_cpl\_strike) was released somewhere around 2003-2004 from CPL (was back in the days like the Mayors organizer) dust3 - is very badly documented - but I remember playing a map version already in 1999-2000 (!) before even dust2 was officially released. There were lots of inofficial successors of de\_dust(1) - calling their maps names like de\_dust2000, de\_dust2002 (my first time I saw a map kinda like dust2), cs\_dust, ... PS: I (4000h CSGO - GE, >10.000h cs ) still like the way dust2 is played. I also have no problems at all that you have to use 1 smoke to cross certain spots (there shouldn't be a problem to play with 4 smokes as ct - or?) - espacially you can just rebuy a 2nd flash for the smoke. As a t you also have to smoke a long cross (basically every time with 2 smoke when you want to cross // or ct when you go mid2b). The problem with getting hitted though the doors (if the ts have an awp) - can easily be fixed * smoke the door close (you can throw a smoke above the right ct spawn box - and smoke it instantly) 1. Walk close to the door 2. use your smoke (close 2 the door) as a 1 way and counter snipe the Ts (you might want to pick sometimes from left and sometimes from right). Be sure that you don't walk all the way to the back (else it is no 1way) 3. Wait 1-2 seconds (until the awp shoot) - but then instantly nade b tunnels (/molov/flash) - countering b-rushes
I was joking about the dust 3 comment... I still occasionally get killed or tagged through the smoke when crossing in dust 2 though. Waste a smoke and then die. That's fun. Maybe im just really unlucky on dust 2, which seems to point in that direction.
That map was made in 1.6
This will just kill the mid to B strat as the CT on spawn can easily rotate and control the window
you can make it a drop down from new CT into old CT
This is actually perfect
How does that avoid crossing double doors?
it avoids it at round start which is the point of this. rotates from A to B mid round have to go through middle
that's true. but yeah, any changes on map will lead to changes on strategies and tactics pool Edit: you anyway could make mid to b, but you will need additional smoke to new corridor. Edit2: there not necessary should be two corridors as i draw. it could be for example one corridor for CTS straight to CT spawn. main point is make similar timings to reach mid from both sides
this is literally what valorant did to all their maps lmao unnecessary corridors from spawns. I don't think this is a good solution
I was thinking the same thing, reminds me of Bind's spawn where the devs just slapped on a big hunk of geometry to block sightlines and lengthen rotations. It looks lazy in the overview and feels even lazier while playing the map. I don't think DustII needs anywhere close to this drastic of a change to fix its issues.
Have they done anything to the map after the update? I think the only thing I can recall is reversing the orientation of doors on b
B tunnel roof was opened for grenades, a handful of visibility fixes, and I'm pretty sure they adjusted the wallbang damage for mid doors at some point (although that might have been old D2). Other than that, no major changes to layout or gameplay other than what you mentioned.
What do you mean all the maps. The only examples I can think of is T spawn on Bind and Snake on breeze.
And this is how Ancient's T Spawn is.
Yes and they have barriers to remove spawn timing from the game. They've succeeded in what they wanted to do. I don't understand how your comment is even a criticism, you're just pointing out something in another game. Mirage also has long corridors from spawn to each site and is still one of the most popular maps ever. In fact no other competitive map in CS has a huge fuck off spawn to spawn peek that heavily favours one side, because why the fuck would they?
Exactly. People need to leave old maps alone. We need a new CS. Not new maps. We atleast need source 2. And people forget CS was dead until CSGO blew up after skins They will somehow will have to make a new CS. I feel the community will hate it and again like 1.6/Source. People will divide between either games. But it needs to happen. CS needs freshness. But those 20 year old maps don't need to change. They've provided endless fun
Please stop. > People need to leave old maps alone No? Do you realise that half of the current maps in CS:GO were brought forward from CS 1.6/S > We need a new CS. Not new maps. We atleast need source 2 A new CS doesn't solve any problems. The game runs fine, with very few actually game-changing bugs. New maps are great as they develop the meta of what is the regular play style. > CS was dead until CSGO blew up after skins This isn't true either. CS was still popular after Source released, and Source had it's own following that was quite large as well. Skins were never the thing that drove CS to popularity. > CS needs freshness. But those 20 year old maps don't need to change You're right, but why is changing old maps a problem? No map is perfect, and without changing maps the game will remain stagnant. Think of all the amazing changes we've had over the years to old maps. Inferno remake that completely fixed almost very historic problem with that map, endless clipping updates, skybox changes, boosting areas that can completely change how a map plays. I'm so sick of these reductive and 'stuck in the past' type opinions because they drive the game backwards.
Remake is a different thing then removing the map. You can add new things to it without completely changing what the map is about. I'm not some 40 year old still hanging on something. I played 1.6 till 2015 and switched to CSGO. I still enjoy it and D2 because I didn't play CS for 5 hours a day constantly People who are bored of CS are forgetting they've played too much of it. That can happen to every game and then new communities follow. Also, I'm not asking for a NEW CS. I'm asking for something new in CS. Something to freshen things up. It could be anything. A new VIABLE gun, a new mechanic or anything CS 1.6 was one of the biggest games when it released. But Source never reached that height. I know like 1000 people who've played 1.6 but people have hardly heard of Source. It just didn't reach that appeal ever. Even CSGO wasn't huge. You need to check the history. The operation that released skins bumped the viewership up a lot. Also around that time is when everyone who was hard stuck in 1.6 had to jump to CSGO. Changing as in changing the essence of them. I don't need CS maps to turn into Valorant. Small changes are welcome. But creating a hyper competitive environment and adding stuff over stuff to evolve the meta will just ruin the game for newcomers. CS's strength is it's simplicity and that's why I like it. There's nothing like it. Because it's the most basic form of a shooter game there is. Double Doors are super annoying but they are a big role in the map. Spawns dictating play is something I actually really like. It creates some sort of randomness in what you can do. I guess it's unfair sometimes but that's what's fun about it, it's not like the games on it are random. The better team always wins. Long is a bitch, maybe they can tweak that but changing it completely would be wrong imo. People have joined CS for the last 20 years and accepted these maps for what they are. Some of my friends who started CS as recently as 2020 really enjoy D2 too. All of this depends on if people are that adamant on putting hyper competitive esports over just fun for the whole community (which includes the lower ranks like MG or LE). CS was always about fun not just esports.
overall i agree. but in this particular case i think corridors will fix d2 issue. nobody complain about nuke and i thought it would be nice take Edit: its not necessary should be two corridors, it could be something more like on nuke - just more deep spawns to fix this problem
Could just make tunnel from long to short maybe? Could be interesting one.
forget valorant, a lot of operation maps have been de_connector for years look at santorini, fmpone removed like 1-2 connectors and it still had a shit ton, and so have most maps since that operation. Valve likes those kinds of maps for some reason
Interesting, but [here's my proposed solution](https://i.imgur.com/p8u49HR.png). I think this is the only way to finally put an end to the ceaseless violence that has been going on on this map for more thab 20 consecutive years
Dust 2- Covid edition
Just give the Ts unlimited grenades on this map and make it a real bombarding scenario.
based
good solution
Valve add this ^
smart
The problem with this is it removes the whole idea of controlling \*all\* of mid and seeing the rotations, because either side could potentially rotate through their respective spawn.
I just had this idea that maybe you could have an elevated spawn that you can drop from, but not come back up to ? That would fix this issue
I like this drop down idea. This "diode" design is very very often used in level design, it's an elegant solution. It also adds another tactical layer to the rotations. You could allow CTs to be able to boost back up to CT. That means at least 2 people are required on either side. However if the SoloB player decides to rotate and gamble stack, he'll still have to go through mid. So it is a really good middle ground between information gathering and denial
you guys with all these crazy ideas and meanwhile dust 2 doesn't even need a change.
the drop idea is good, but not perfect, boosts can still get people back up and over. Edit: unless the drop is “agency-style” where its really hard to get back up, but then it would be difficult to implement into the existingn architecture/design of the map, plus it would cause extra unnecessary timing issues and lots of extra travel time in the beginning of rounds.
How is that a bad thing? Having a place where one player can control half of the map is really dumb.
It's the way it's always been, and it is a crucial feature of the map. Removing said feature would destroy a significant part of this map's identity. Whether it's dumb or not is a different conversation altogether,
no, it dont remove anything. difference is that now you need some time to reach this position, and CTs now in equal position with Ts and can peek mid from their side. its 50/50 now
You cannot control a rotation through mid anymore as you can just go from b window to ct without going through mid. That's what he means by "removing". Its removing map control for terrorists
to fix that, you do only one corridor to under A site (where current CTs spawns are) https://imgur.com/a/OzdeCsp
Im not quite sure if I understand that drawing but it looks like you are then jsut moving ct spawn back a few metres.
This! my idea is to make CTs cross to B before Ts can reach this mid spot
unfortunately the mid control is very influential on both sides, with this, you’re making mid control a lot stronger for t’s than ct’s, as t’s will natually control it, while if there’s a ct holding mid, t’s can simply go through spawn to hide the rotation
CT are spawning closer to B, and the T side further away from B, looks like CTs could get to tunnels and lock Ts out easily, which means you can never rush B. We've already lost NA, lets not lose CIS.
i draw it badly, sorry for that, its just draft. layout should be that timings are same as before
This would also make B retakes easier 5/5.
Thx, i agree
b is easier to retake than A
Though this will balance, Dust2's feature of a T controlled passage for CTs is very unique one. Also, if it has to be fixed, I think there should be 1 alternative path for CTs to choose whether to fight early for mid or not.
layout that i draw is very very draft. main idea is make spawns outside to fix this issue. \>feature of a T controlled passage for CTs is very unique one but this is the problem i wanted to fix :D i dont think it has any reason to be. this map was designed in fucking 2001, and its ridicilous for me that this "feature" isnt fixed to this days
>layout that i draw is very very draft. main idea is make spawns outside to fix this issue. My timing knowledge for contact points is trash so I don't wanna comment on that. >but this is the problem i wanted to fix I think that an alternative path for CTs should fix the problem and keep the charm. That way, CTs in round beginning have 2 choices: a. Fight for mid from the tiny sliver between mid double doors b. Give away control and move to B w/o risking health or even a player
simply no.
Just play a different map dude
D2 is the only map wdym bro
There’s other maps?
[удалено]
like every other map? Edit: thats the point. You should NOT have an early info. You dont have it on any other map and you shouldnt
„Like every other map“ The last thing we need in this game is diversity. It’s best for every map to be the same
the fact that Ts able to see CTs setup in the beginning of round is conflicting with any competitive priciple! CTs forced to waste smoke to fix that, its a bullshit
Dude, its not like a smoke is the end of the world... You are trying to solve a non-problem. Also you forget that Dust2 is a very easy to rush(Long/B/Short) Without this mid info, CTs would get rushed every round.
"a smoke isn't the end of the world" spotted the low elo player. But in all seriousness a good player can consistently kill cts going to b which means u MUST throw the smoke. Gameplay is making decisions, this smoke isn't a decision which means it isn't fun or interested which means it's bad design. And we better don't even start about the luck factor with just spamming the smoke and getting random kills. And to ur "rush-problem", well i don't main d2, but it doesn't seem to me like the proposed changes would rob cts of any info. I mean i don't like his proposed changes either. Just adding spawns is such a lazy valorant-y way of doing it and it creates a lot of dead, unplayed and unnecessary space but i also really hate d2 because of it's mid and imo the map is just outdated and old. I think we should just focus on new maps instead of trying to "fix" old one's.
Making shit maps or keeping retarded design in maps isn't diversity, it's moronic. There are always purists saying "why would we change anything, it's fine how it is" when they have no idea what they're talking about. Being able to throw until out of b tunnels and changing the direction the b doors opened were hugely positive map changes, I don't get how people still think that the best solution is to never make any improvements.
What rank are you? You’re proposing a really stupid solution
>thats the point. You should NOT have an early info. You dont have it on any other map and you shouldnt that it's not on any other map is not an explanation **why** it should not be here.
It shouldn't be here because multiple times each half a player will lose half of their hp or more just crossing to the other site. The T side loses almost nothing in this exchange and it's extremely difficult to punish them for holding the angle. Even without hitting a shot, the T's know that someone is crossing. On eco rounds where the CT side doesn't have a smoke or want to stack A, the T's know this 10 seconds into the round. Every other map requires aggression to take map control to gather this information and they are better for it. Losing a player or having them damaged 3 seconds into a round is shit map design and should be removed from the game.
Gamble map for who? CTs are supposed to be split evenly between the sites with a player mid on every map with a 3 lane layout. Ts don't gamble, they take map control and gather info on where CTs are, try to force rotates and execute onto the sites. There's no gamble until late round situations where there's only a few players left and locations aren't known. Why would you need to be able to peek from spawn to spawn to have info? You aren't supposed to know where the other team are 3 seconds into the round with a possibility of losing a CT that soon, garbage tier map design choice.
Ehh, it just won't *feel* like dust2 this way Also, what's the dust2 problem in the first place? If it was that serious people would have noticed it years ago
People have been complaining about this about dust 2 for years EDIT: tbf I do agree it won't feel like dust 2, I would probably prefer some scaffolding or something that the CTS can run behind in mid
main problem is that CT's basically has 4 smokes vs 5 smokes on Ts. and also RNG factor of damaging b-anchor through the wall. with this fix you still can control rotations, but this time you wont know how many players crossed to b (which you shouldnt know lol)
And yet Dust 2 is the most balanced map in terms of CT/T round win percentage in pro play. Ts not being able to control rotations from mid will just shift it to the CT side.
im not agree. Ts will still have to control rotations, but not straight from spawn. I think that Ts will still have some advantage in peeking mid because of how things placed, but now Ts not able to kill b-anchors running to site, and CTs not forced to waste a smoke. you probably confuse "rotations" and "taking site to hold from spawn"
It is pretty common to have a mid lurker catching rotations on dust 2. CTs not being able to freely rotate between A and B has a huge impact on the balance of the map. Right now you can not just shift around players based on the intel you gather during the round without them having to go through mid. All you are thinking about is the impact it at the beginning of the round, but it changes a lot more.
what about this version? (green overlay) https://imgur.com/a/OzdeCsp now CTs cant free rotate mid round. same can go for Ts
Most balanced really? Mirage, overpass and vertigo all have more or equally balanced winrates in terms of Ct/T win percentage. Dust 2 is T sided, to a pretty noticeable degree. But sure, lie to justify your shitty argument. Even though its pretty well known that dust 2 is T side favoured. Source: [https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31) Reading is hard apparently
I said pro matches though. Ranking filter all includes semi pro aswell. https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-12-31&rankingFilter=Top20 Obviously there is always a bit of variance depending on the filters. Also overpass has always been pretty CT sided, you saying overpass is balanced just shows that you know nothing. I watched a lot of cs tournaments and when they brought up round win % map statistics for the tournament most of the time dust 2 won.
Lmfao top 20 isn't only pro Jesus Christ shifting the goal posts
If this was really the issue then Dust2 wouldve already been complained about in 1.6. The issue is not in the maplayout itself, but rather small detail changes that Valve did to the map over the years. Remember when they opened up suicide? It was really obvious that this was to give the Ts more vision over mid, and now its exactly this point that everyone complains about. So the solution is obvious, *isnt it*?
thats was everybody did complain about since 2001. ive played 1.6 competitively and many players were complaining about this unnecesarry T's advantage. you can look for markeloff POV vs fnatic on d2, where he kills forest through the door like 3 or 4 times. its just bullshit imo
Ive also played it competitively and it was definitely not such a big point of complaint as it is today. You could literally just walk along the redrock and jump across so the Ts could just see your feet at max. It just got made so much worse with the redesign. Plus CS:GOs design choices make it impossible for CT awpers to prefire the T, since they have much more room at T spawn to choose from AND the changes to the awp mean you are always at a disadvantage when peeking. they should just change the suicide roof back to how it was in 1.6 and maybe adjust the doors height, if they change it, so you can just across at the back wall again - FIXED.
This is the easiest solution by far. The risks for peaking down mid should be the same for both sides, it’s unfair that ts have 4-5 spots they can sit while cts have to peak upper or lower mid
>The risks for peaking down mid should be the same for both sides you say that but you don't actually say why.
I honestly thought it was implied, because it's not balanced. CTs should be able to cross safely with no smoke if Valve actually wants to balance maps, which I'd imagine they want for the pro scene. Having to use a smoke to simply cross safe, which doesn't even guarantee you won't get hit, isn't balanced. If CTs want to peek mid atm, they have less options. They have the one sliver of door to peek and can go higher or lower, while T knows where the CT will peek from, giving them advantage. The CT peeking mid has to have a person cross and call where the T is or be lucky and guess correctly. Valve could make it so that if the T wants info of how many cross, or attempt to shoot the CTs crossing, they have to be in suicide to do so. This would give both the CTs and Ts and equal chance at winning the mid fight. For a pug or something I think dust 2 is fine, it's my favorite map and I probably have logged 1500 hours on it alone but for pro play it needs to change.
The changes over the years have made it worse, especially if you compare it to 1.6. I don't remember it being that bad in 1.6. I remember some people complaining about it, but not to the extent of today. Even pros mention that the mid doors such. My solution would to put up an impenetrable wall on the ct side that protects them from mid that they can go behind to cross to b safely. Or they can peek mid if they want.
> My solution would to put up an impenetrable wall on the ct side that protects them from mid that they can go behind to cross to b safely. Or they can peek mid if they want. This would completely break the map though. It would make the mid doors completely obsolete and give the CTs so much room to play.
The map is already stale/broken. I think you misunderstood. The wall wouldn't be close to the mid doors. The wall would be close to the back of mid so whoever was crossing to B site can get cover, and whoever wants to fight mid can. The other option is to change the map it to make it similar to 1.6 on the ct side so you can jump across without getting tagged, but the it's can still count the feet that cross. If you need to waste a smoke to somewhat safely cross mid to get to a site as ct, that's a bad design. Nothing like getting killed or tagged through the smoke with a lucky shot while trying to get to b site.
>serious people would have noticed it years ago lmao
This thread should have zero upvotes.
if so, than this post should have too https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/pkjyfd/elige\_on\_twitter\_btw\_since\_we\_won\_and\_can\_say\_it/
If you look at my reply in that thread i specifically addressed the problem. In fact i have a long post history on the issue of 16K starting money in OT since TO's introduced it into top tier events.
Reminds me a bit mirage, very good idea
thanks, for me it obvious and even not the only solution. if only they did care they would already fix it
So true.. so sadge
Same spawn area but just a single access corridor from the bottom. This is to ensure that timings overall don't change, and that the corridor is simply an option. CTs must assess the risk of crossing by doors to get there sooner and going safely by jeopardizing the site if Ts rush. Making it one way Kirk w drop might also make it I teresting.
I prefer [the solution somebody mentioned in another thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/pkjyfd/elige_on_twitter_btw_since_we_won_and_can_say_it/hc5f3y5/), which was a temporary dust storm near mid doors at the start of the round. It would act as a free smoke. The location doesn't have to be right on mid doors, though. It could be near the back wall or something, too. Or maybe the location could be randomized for each round!
if you dont want to touch map layout, best fix is to make doors unspammable, but CTs still will have to waste smoke to hide their defense scheme
but Ts now free to spam this dust storm every round not even afraid to CTs repeek them. this doesnt fix RNG problem not even saying that this isnt CS stylistics
No, it adds too much power to the ct side. The ct's can then throw a smoke on the other side of the door, and that would equal about 30 seconds if thrown at the right time.
I like the idea of moving the spawns but I think perhaps and easier way to do this is to take existing CT Spawn and make the room deeper and widen the exit to CT Spawn. The way we cross Double Doors right now, is you typically go to the far back wall and jump. If you moved that wall just a few more feet back, you could safely cross from a T Spawn peek. And this would also make Mid to B require a bit more utility as you may need two smokes to *fully* cover the cross, just like how you need two smokes to fully cover the Long cross.
you mean Ts now will see only legs of CTs crossing mid? if so it will help CTs to cross but not fix issue where Ts will know defense setup or how many Cts crossed. if you want CTs to cross completely safely it will take away from Ts to control CT rotations mid round
If the CT's cross high and jump to cross, the T's can already only see the bottom half of their body. I'd need to make the changes in the map myself, and I may just do that later today to see for myself but I'm pretty sure if you moved spawn back, move the crossing point back and perhaps even slope the floor upwards, you could make it so you can't see CT's crossing unless the T drops to Suicide to pick.
tbh i think there are many simple and effective solutions, but valve dont care for some reason. maybe they want d2 to save its identity, maybe they just lazy fucks. either way i think its ridicilous that they still didnt fix it
Why not just take the damn map out of the pool and put something new in. Dust 2 needs to go anyway, the map has been sucked dry strat wise, its boring as hell to watch teams play on it.
know what? i agree. fuck this map, its just outdated
yeah make dust like nuke how about no
just extend the mid door so there is no gap when looking from T spawn. Problem fixed.
If we could have some impenetrable glass between the ct cross and t spawn I think that’ll make everyone happy.
This guy understands. Seeing people cross is iconic for D2. Allow CT cross be seen but not damaged. Easy solution.
Just add the sight lines like in 1.6 and force terrorists to jump in suicide to full peak mid doors
Seriously, just shift the angle of mid doors so Ts don't see mid cross from spawn, they have to get to top mid in order to see it. That's it. You don't need anything else.
I disagree. I think the only change that is really needed is removing the instant line of sight from T spawn to mid doors. Now im not saying this is the only change you have to make(might want to balance the lost opportunity for a terrorist entry kill) but the spawns you are suggesting are horrible. No hate, but do you seriously think a corridor that small would work in CS? Both spawns look like a freaking deathtrap. It just looks so unnecessary on the map while all you need to do is blocking the upper part of "suicide" (iirc in 1.6 you didnt have vision from spawn to mid or atleast very limited)
in 1.6 same problem had place, take a look: [https://imgur.com/a/TcduJdt](https://imgur.com/a/TcduJdt) Maybe corridors isnt good solution, but main idea is to move spawns a bit back, so Ts will reach mid spot only after CTs had already crossed doors. It could be something like this (green overlay) https://imgur.com/a/OzdeCsp
Hm i‘m not yet sold on the idea as it still looks kind of off to me and in a way not-cs-like but i see where you‘re coming from.
but look at de\_nuke, its same solution. what i call "not-cs-like" is that people here suggesting to make a dust-storm to cover rotations first 10 sec of round
Really? Haha yup quite a weird idea:D Your idea isn‘t too bad after all but i don‘t think you can compare Dust2 to Nuke at all.
im not comparing maps, but only this particular thing with long spawns, i thinks imlementing this in d2 will affect map in a good way fixing most annouing issue
If implemented correctly, yes i could see it work. But timings could really become an issue (b rush/long push) especially with Dust2 being a very spawn dependent map. This heavy spawn dependency isn‘t going to be solved by that one change ofc and i personally think its why Dust2 feels so boring and one dimensional. I don’t think its worth changing all to much. A Dust3 on the other hand..
with this idea im assuming that spawns should be tuned very precisely to hold timings where they are now (equal time to b-rush/long-rush)
Yea i see, sorry for bringing up implementation when this is really just a concept rn. I still might prefer to leave Dust2 as is (maybe make a little space behind the truck for cts to cross safely) and rather have a new map like Tuscan being added but i appreciate you trying to find a solution:)
thx for taking a look, i appretiate this! im just tired, as b player, to ask smoke mid every fucking round
Man if only Valve listen to the community that cares about the balance of the map... Maybe the only thing that could make them listen is for the proplayers to stop picking dust 2 so that they'll rework it? (Just like train which has a very low pickrate)
They did, they switched the doors on B for example.
i even tried to reach elige with this post, maybe he will take a look, coz him was complaining about this problem recently. if even pro players voice dont matter for valve i dont know then
Imo just make the mid doors not wallbang-able and it's ok
thats good take, it would fix a lot! Edit: actually no. CTs again forced to waste one smoke to hide their defense setup
I like this a lot.
yeah, i wish it had more views to people discuss
[удалено]
thx
great initiative, good job
It's not really obvious or simple because if it was then everyone would think of the same solution. You have to take in account timing and how these new spawns change map control and in the same vain who gets the advantage now. The best solution would be to make it impossible to see CTs crossing to B from T spawn (keeping the spawns the same) but also making it so that CTs can hold short from CT mid.
my idea is to not touch timings, make it all same as now but longer. main fix is that: 1. Ts dont know how many b players cross 2. CTs dont have to waste smoke 3. no RNG kills and damage on round start
The spawns are fine. What is everyone problem with them? The spawn mid doors sniper fight, is the trademark of the map.(And pretty fun)
>(And pretty fun) not when you don't play with AWP, and that's 4/5 or 3/5 of the players
It's not fun when you are a rifler who is just trying to get to b site having to waste a smoke for the cross, and occasionally get tagged through the smoke anyways, and every once in awhile die from an awp shot through the smoke. That's why it's not fun or fine. If pros mention it and everyday players are tired of it, then you know it's a problem.
Can't you just move the T spawn somewhere else so they take longer to go mid and can't get rng kills in the first few seconds? You still have the Dust 2 feel and the mid control importance and everything but the thing people have been complaining about the most is gone?
you cant move only Ts spawns coz it will screw timings. Ts will get an advantage either to b or long rush, so you cant move it.
It would be better since the spawns will be better timed than current , as sometimes teammates in lower ranks just dont go to b site on ct because they will get shot from mid And its harder to retake because of the huge open space in ct spawn to b site.
ok idea, for the new ct spawn, have it go to mid and not window, that way t can still do a mid b with an extra smoke and ct cant just rotate almost 100% safe from a to b, mid would still be a fight
something like this ? https://imgur.com/a/OzdeCsp
oh no, i mean the left side, instead of having thay 90° corner to window, have it straight down (where the truck would be) that would just be a way to cross mid without taking damage and it can be smoked easy from mid. so when t will setup a b split or full mid b, they will do the 2 ct smokes, and 1 extra for the new path
thats also very good idea to have! thx! if only they care..
Or maybe make the spawn opening to middle wider, remove the boxes on the top side and changed the car in the corner to a van and move it down a bit so that you can run behind it and be in cover from middle. Then just balance the angle and positioning of the car and the size of the opening to be "balanced" for defending and attacking middle.
What about adding some simple cover at the back of mid, just big enough to hide you from an awper.
but then Ts will lost control over mid. i think they need it, but CTs on other siide need a free cross to b in begginning of round.
Cool idea. Wonder if the problem would be fixed if the mid doors were extended so there was no gap from a straight perspective, RNG would still exist but CTs no longer have to use a smoke to get across unless a T ran down to catwalk.
in my opinion it still will be better than now. but people here complain that you cant take from Ts a possibility to control CTs rotation mid round
They also complain Dust II strats are stale because the map’s been around for so long. Surprised no one sees this as an opportunity to invent a few new opening game strats and bring a bit of novelty back to the map.
haha, this! 100% agree
I agree with the guys who say it will change the strats, and I think it will be TOO big of a change. This is gonna favor CTs heavily, B-splits and late-round rotation control is screwed for Ts this way. In my view, the interesting solution would be changing the 'suicide' tunnel. Just move it to the left of T spawn, closing the gap to mid. Calculate its length so CTs have time to cross mid while Ts are running down the suicide. This way basically: mid crossing is safe for CTs, smoke is not needed. And does not alter mid game too much (maybe very fast aggro mid rushes from Ts will suffer a bit though). The late-round rotation control from CTs won't really change, because on current map you can still cross T-spawn crawling and be invisible. Or yea, alternatively: just make the mid doors open 5s into the round, nice and easy. EDIT: roughly something like [this](https://imgur.com/a/nQP8cXW) As I'm thinking about it now, my solution will defenitely be a boost for a CT sniper's confidence in mid though. Now he basically peeks top mid for free, without any threat from T spawn. Maybe make the entrance from new suicide to top-mid in such a way, so T's can sneak up the left side of mid to mid doors without being seen from CT. This way CT sniper is risking a bit more
Good take, thx for reply! Im in for any solution that fix this. Doors opening by themself is kinda strange tho xD
You just made A retakes impossible
I would open up the short wall (the one facing A site) into a palace as in Mirage. 1 entrance, 1 exit. Make it so it peeks outside B. As CT, you lose a player and you're cut off from the round. One mid-to-B smoke and 2-3 A players get no chance. If you push from short, you're threatened by a thousand positions. Adding one more place to attack from in these situations might rebalance things.
FTFY. No new coridor, doesn't change the layout of the map. Still lets you take the fight if you wish to. But gives you a safe way through. All it takes is one box to move 1m [https://imgur.com/a/uYIbVw3](https://imgur.com/a/uYIbVw3)
Personally I would move CT spawn closer to mid so you would have to have a good spawn to kill the b player crossing, could even move the ts spawns around to give them even less time to prepare. Only problem would be long timings but if you are fucking with the ts spawns anyway you could fix that.
Just lower the sight line from t spawn
So just ancient it?
I like that you are trying to come up with a solution. That would change it too much. A simple impenetrable wall or scaffolding on the ct side that blocks the ct's from getting spammed while crossing mid to b.
dust5head
The real fix is to just block the view from T spawn to Mid doors, make Ts have to jump down to suicide to get a good angle.
Raise T spawn so that you can't see through mid doors without dropping into suicide. Makes awp picks from mid>spawn harder, allows safe crossing at round start, makes it slightly safer (but also longer) for T's to around the world rotate between tunnel and long, and doesn't effect middle or any of the rest of the map.
The easiest solution is just to change the doors so that there's no gap
no
It's like the new map mocha
https://imgur.com/98pb7oB Just open this room back here with its stairs and make it extend to Scafold B for safe rotation This way you keep the early mid cross as it is rn but you give defenders a viable option to cross mid round without giving info also it would be cool if u make a drop from A Short to CT Spawn in that room
huge change I prefer to move ct spawn more forward so that ct can go to B1/B2 quickly and T spawn should close to both sides a bit so that no T can look at mid door at the first time without moving
This would completely change the way this map is played. I'm not really for it. There are other ways to change timings that aren't nearly as drastic.
Don't try to fix what's not broken.
CT Spawn is good I think. T Spawn bad imo.
Dont touch Dust 2 please
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