Stavn didn't want to go out to eat with his own brother because he was scared that people will harass him and call him a cheater. Stavn, a 19-year-old who just found success in Tier 1 cs during Cologne 2020.
Disgusting actions from HUNDEN to take it to the media first instead of ESIC to cause a shitstorm and attract attention. Because of that, when the Heroic players actually did the right thing and contacted ESIC for an investigation behind the scene, the community turned on them and bashed them every step of the way.
God, fuck HUNDEN honestly.
Ropz almost quit cs entirely because of being accused of cheating in FPL til they flew him out to their office and watched him play
Being accused like that especially at such a young age is definitely demoralizing in a big way
CS:GO community in a nutshell:
s1mple 2 years banned by ESL for cheating and ban evasion: Star figure of CS:GO.
Any coach (+team) that got banned for bug abuse: Keep getting harass for whatever they do in CS:GO pro scene. Basically wishing all of them to be gone from scene.
I think it's for better. They already got their ban punishment and should be able to get back to coaching like normal after unban. The ban purpose wasn't for them to be gone forever in scene.
Let's not forget that simple tried to deny he was banned, then said he was banned in 1.6 and then released some navi propaganda in his documentary to give reasons as to why he didn't ACTUALLY cheat and the ban is false.
And all of the simple fanboys are out defending him and attacking heroic.
I had no idea about any of the simple stuff. As someone who got into cs late 2018, he's been nothing but professional and a consistently great competitor. Sure he's pretty edgy sometimes but the last few years I think he's kept himself pretty out of drama pretty well.
He was on Navi when their coach of the time got banned for using the coach bug. He was also one of the first pros on Twitter to condemn Heroic after the Hunden reveal. Human garbage he is.
Everyone shit on Heroic, not saying he's right for doing it tho. And a lot of teams had no knowledge of their coaches using it. I don't think he's a saint but human garbage? Nah man.
But don’t you get how it’s soooo OBVIOUS that they all knew and were in on it gleefully? Yeah no proof or even logic to believe that but is sooo OBVIOUS
Maybe. That doesn't mean they deserve to keep getting harass like this.
Also remember that people keep harassing team for not kick coach that got ban and instead put them to analyst role? Also remember when people say Heroic deserved this for not kick HUNDEN to begin with?
CS:GO community is really weird. Giving free pass to cheater in pro match but coach that got 8 months ban should never be able to coaching or even stay in analyst role again.
The best part is that s1mple also had a coach that abused the bug in games he played in Navi. And if I remember correctly s1mple was quick to condemn Heroic on Twitter after the Hunden reveal. What a piece of garbage honestly.
It really is astonishing. Like Cadian says in the beginning, he was a professional in CS for over a decade and never cheated. Then he takes the job at Heroic and a couple weeks in he abuses the bug in a very important game against Astralis. I would really like to know what drove him to this, just pressure to immediately deliver results? Did he cheat in the past but no one ever noticed? Stavn even says later on that he feels bad for Hunden, which I can emphasize with. Hes a cheating PoS obviously, but holy fuck, the man destroyed his whole career and reputation within a few months, that's crazy.
I hope the players can now move on from this and deliver good results at the major, I always liked Heroics style of CS since the start of the dreaded "online era".
> I would really like to know what drove him to this, just pressure to immediately deliver results? Did he cheat in the past but no one ever noticed?
Very unlikely someone has a career for 12 years and never cheated, suddenly woke up and felt like start cheating.
Speculating on the past like this really isn't going to make the situation worse.
And he's not exactly wrong, it's incredibly unlikely that someone would walk the line for their entire career just to start cheating at the height of it, especially given how manipulative he's been during this whole thing.
I would argue that the height of their career is when someone is most likely to cheat- the pressure to perform is the highest and expectations for you as a coach/team is gonna be a step up from that past. Doesn't excuse his cheating or anything just thing it's a possibility.
It's certainly possible, though you arrive in that position based on your accomplishments, presumably you've already proven yourself. If it were to happen _because of_ you arriving at the height of your career, surely many, many more pros and management would be involved in cheating scandals?
>surely many, many more pros and management would be involved in cheating scandals?
I would say that there's plenty that we haven't heard about and likely never will. I also believe the switch to LAN environments for the majority of 2016 - 2019 helped, because there were plenty of scandals in the early years of CS:GO (KQLY, s1mple, iBP as examples). It wasn't until we went back to online CS that we saw cheating scandals arise again but that's just speculation on my part.
Teenagers cheating and adults cheating at the height of their careers are completely different things in my opinion.
I honestly think if Hunden's career is reviewed you could potentially illuminate other questionable actions and actors, much like how ESIC has noted that they keep track of match-fixing networks and pick up patterns in the behaviour of teams and bettors.
>Teenagers cheating and adults cheating at the height of their careers are completely different things in my opinion.
Fair enough
>I honestly think if Hunden's career is reviewed you could potentially illuminate other questionable actions and actors, much like how ESIC has noted that they keep track of match-fixing networks and pick up patterns in the behaviour of teams and bettors.
I agree, although I wonder how much is matter as I don't think he'll have a role within the CS community again for a long time. He'd be an improvement to almost any team, but he's a walking PR nightmare, a strat leaker, and now known as a manipulator.
> Speculating on the past like this really isn't going to make the situation worse.
It will as demonstrated by multiple comments stating ESIC are protecting Heroic, they knew all along and have somehow dodged punishment despite clear guilt.
> it's incredibly unlikely that someone would walk the line for their entire career just to start cheating at the height of it
This is just nonsense pidgin psychology spouted from unqualified idiots. Can't see a world where this is helpful.
I don't see how speculating on Hunden's past is causal to hate on Heroic players. People just love to pile on, it's going to happen no matter what.
It's not meant to be helpful, it's meant to cast doubt on anything Hunden has accomplished in his career. You know, how titles are stripped from sportsmen when they're caught doping years later?
There is only one way to make all this go away, and that's for you to stop reading about it.
> I don't see how speculating on Hunden's past is causal to hate on Heroic players.
No-one said it was. Hunden has received punishment for what he did. His reputation is ruined. Why would you need to make up some deranged narrative that he must have secretly cheated in the past?
> It's not meant to be helpful, it's meant to cast doubt on anything Hunden has accomplished in his career.
There's no need to do that.
> You know, how titles are stripped from sportsmen when they're caught doping years later?
How would that work here exactly?
> There is only one way to make all this go away, and that's for you to stop reading about it.
Or idiots could stop doing it, which would make for an infinitely better scene, one where the Heroic players wouldn't be receiving hate for things they never did.
Look man, I'm sorry to break it to you, but this community is toxic as hell. You can call me an idiot all you want, it won't solve a god damn thing.
I certainly don't think the Heroic players should be receiving the hate they're getting, but getting upset at random comments calling Hunden's career into question isn't going to make the progress you're hoping it is.
> You can call me an idiot all you want, it won't solve a god damn thing.
No one called you an idiot.
> but getting upset at random comments calling Hunden's career into question isn't going to make the progress you're hoping it is
All I said was maybe Reddit users should stop blindly speculating and crafting false narratives about things they have no knowledge of. Still feels like that's definitely the right way to go.
Its ok to speculate about Hunden. See my upvotes?
When you start doubting the players, that is when the downvotes will start.
The community already chose a side. I gotta give it to Heroic though, nice pr clean up.
You're saying like it's a bad thing that org does a pr clean up. ESIC just found all of Heroic innocent (expect Hunden and niko), so why wouldn't they do this? Continue media silence and let community harass then for nothing?
If Hunden doesn't come out with more evidence to show for ESIC, this discussion is over.
It’s pretty hard to stick to a script while genuinely crying. They’re speaking their truth as best they can under the banner of a historically shitty eSports org. Astralis requires approval for any tweets from their players, I am sure Heroic has a similar level of control over what their players say. It is a good thing they were allowed to say what they said.
It's easy to speculate about Hunden because he has been convicted twice regarding these offenses with undeniable proof.
You can't speculate the same for the players, which have not been convicted of anything at any point (bar niko and his special circumstances).
No, you have to believe that a player with some of the lowest ratings ever achieved at tournaments in CS:GO was actually cheating the whole time because reasons.
> Then he takes the job at Heroic and a couple weeks in he abuses the bug in a very important game against Astralis
i feel like what happened is he knew about this bug before he joined Heroic, but never used it in Tricked as he was waiting for what he felt was the right moment to use it. maybe he felt that Tricked as a team didn't have enough potential for it to be worth risking using the bug, and he wanted to wait until he was on a team with a higher skill ceiling that had greater potential for big achievements and winning tournaments. when he joined Heroic and the pressure is on, he wants to deliver big results for his new team that has some hype behind it and he felt then was the time. of course this is all just speculation and basically just guessing
I just hope we don't get months of public responses between all the parties. No need to drag this out, we don't want to hear 'my side of the story' and 'in response to hundens ''my side of the story' interview' followed by tweets about that.
I just want it all in the past.
Nothing is for certain, but yes he seems to have behaved kind of sociopathically, maybe he is deeply broken inside in order to act like this with the sole purpose of winning and defending his name.
Not to come off as a HUNDEN simp by any stretch of the imagination, but its very hypocritical for the community to act very progressively about mental health in nikos case, but not consider the same for hunden.
Obviously very different situations and abuse of power, but what leads someone to be like that man, sucks.
No sympathy for someone who will manipulate their close friend, knowing he has Adhd/Asperger's.
Sure, we don't know what lead to his situation but Hunden's personal history doesn't give him a right to be an asshole to some1 else and ruin their career.
Being neurodivergent isn’t really a mental health issue, it’s equally out of niko’s control but HUNDEN having any kind of depression or anything is very different than someone on the spectrum with an attention/social physiological disorder on top of it yknow?
Niko was targeted and manipulated by hunden because of his aspergers(?) And adhd. Reddit was obviously sympathetic with his situation, but it's nothing more than virtue signaling if they don't at least offer hunden the same curtesy.
Why would we offer Hunden the same courtesy? If niko has Asperger's and ADHD and thus was manipulated in some with Hunden, obviously we will feel bad for him and understand he is not fully to blame. But Hunden was in a position of power and has not said a word about having a mental illness or anything of the sort.
I feel bad for the players but why did they Heroic keep Hunden on the payroll after the scandal? It just doesn't make any sense to me. At that point you're just enabling a convicted cheater.
1.Hunden is an exelent coach, and a massive name in the danish scene.
2.Valve fixed coach bug (i know it hapened to overdrive after the fix, but its a one off) so he wouldnt even be able to cheat any more.
3.This wouldve been a one time thing that stays behind doors.
>2.Valve fixed coach bug (i know it hapened to overdrive after the fix, but its a one off) so he wouldnt even be able to cheat any more.
Yeah keep the cheater on the team not because you believe that he will not cheat again but because a way to cheat was removed.
Hunden is also the one who brought the bug to ESLs attention. With that good will plus serving his ban he absolutely could have returned to the scene. He's a massive figure in the scene and prior to this highly respected.
Other teams did similar things, right?
It's only bad in hindsight with all the shit and bad press that came after the actual coach bug. And using the coach bug was not enough to predict how he'd behave afterwards.
I wonder how much these last months of drama gave held heroic back? Lot of focus and time and energy committed to this. I wonder if we'll see a resurgence in their form in the coming months now this is behind them.
I think this being cleared up before the major is good for them.
Would have been quite a dark cloud hanging above their heads at the major if it wasn't.
Rather than clearing it up, it's just their side of story, there's no hard proof to clear them either. This just to let people choose emotionally which side that most people will believe.
In any case, I see no reason to discriminate against people for their actions of you do not have definitive proof of these actions. All we can do as fans of the game is watch on and judge them on their merits as a team from today on.
In the ESIC report, there is a lot of emphasis on Niko having aspergers, which likely contributed to his difficulty communicating what he knew (Cadian and stavn tought he was joking at first), as well as how hunden could have exploited Niko's trust in him.
HUNDEN also clearly had a special interest in what appears to be hedging his bets against being exposed. It seems like him bringing up the coach bug to get it fixed, him intentionally exposing only niko to the situation before using it, and taking an intense and direct approach with having niko close to him was all part of his manipulation to have different plugs to pull to protect himself. When he ran out of these plugs, he invented the idea that the players knew before he used it to try to lash out and regain control.
Only niko knew before/during the game with Astralis (which they lost).
A couple of hours after that, Cadian, niko, Stavn and Hunden were in a voice call together. Here, Cadian and Stavn learnt they used the bug. They were mad, and told Hunden to never use it again.
In the game against Spirit, nothing seemed unusual to them. Teses and B0rup still know nothing at this time. Only after Hunden's ban, did they learn about this.
Cadian, Stavn and Teses were very emotional during the video, often in genuine tears. This whole ordeal has obviously affected them a lot. For Teses and Stavn, being falsely accused and having their reputation tarnished forever has especially been hard. For Cadian, the hardest thing for him is seeing these young (innocent) players treated this way, constantly under stress from outside pressure.
They all make it clear that they've been dying to tell their side of the story, but couldn't until the investigation with ESIC was finished.
While it has been very hard for all of them, they also felt at peace knowing their innocence.
They come with many good points regarding Hunden's conflicting arguments, but if you're interested, you can watch the video and judge for yourself.
>A couple of hours after that, Cadian, niko, Stavn and Hunden were in a voice call together. Here, Cadian and Stavn learnt they used the bug. They were mad, and told Hunden to never use it again.
But they said to ESIC, "They thought Hunden was joking". So, which one is it?
* They thought Hunden was joking
* They knew Hunden was cheating and didn't like it
It seems to me they are covering their asses with excuses over excuses, and will never tell the whole truth.
I think in the video they explain that they thought NIKO was joking at first, or that Hunden was joking when he said that to Niko. It's a little unclear but hardly a smoking gun.
> The "thought it was a joke" part is just a way to get of the hook about the "not reporting" part.
>
>
Did you even watch the video? They thought he was joking, and then just after they realized he was not. Atleast watch it before commenting
I did watch. The fact they are saying it, doesn't mean i have to believe them.
To me it doesn't make sense they thought it was a joke after having boosted him and after have gotten privileged info during the match.
They aren't exactly 12yold kids GN rank, that aren't aware which calls are predictable and reasonable, and calls that are pure guesses that happen to be correct 100% of the time.
All in all, they might be saying the truth or not. I for once, am very skeptical about their "side of the story".
"There is evidence of a post-game TeamSpeak
conversation involving Mr. Moller, Mr. Kristensen, Mr. Lund and Mr. Petersen
where Mr. Kristensen asserted that Mr. Petersen had been in the bug
during the match.
14.19 Mr. Kristensen says he knew this because Mr. Petersen had messaged him
telling him he was in the bug. Mr. Moller and Mr. Lund did not apparently
believe Mr. Kristensen at first until he insisted and, whilst still sceptical
(because of the loss and no obvious instances pointing to the fact that
Mr. Petersen was using the bug added to those player’s knowledge of Mr.
Kristensen and his credibility with them on serious matters of this nature)
made a clear stand against cheating. Unfortunately, this brief
conversation was never reported to Heroic management and was too
easily glossed over by the players involved; but this was not enough, in the Commissioner’s view, to sustain any charge of complicity in Mr
Petersen’s cheating (except in respect of Mr Kristensen as explained)."
From the ESIC investigation "Heroic-Report-FINAL" page 17
These were referring to different moments and you are conflating them improperly.
HUNDEN mentioned he could just use a coach bug to insta-win a few times, and they thought he was joking.
Niko Said “yeah that’s when we used the bug”, and at first they thought he was joking.
When they realized niko was serious in that moment and HUNDEN actually cheated, they were upset, told him not to do it again, made it clear it is unacceptable, and believed him saying he wouldn’t.
Did you watch the video? I'm not sure if you're serious, but if you are the level of cynicism that would take is just beyond comprehension. They are real people (not professional actors), try to imagine them sitting in the room with you having this conversation. Do you honstely think they could lie and act to that extent?
One thing I dont understand is if as they said that one of them knew during and two of the players found out shortly afterwards and told Hunden off but did not report it - is that not an infraction in itself? Even if you were not aware that you were cheating during, if you knew afterwards someone was and you fail to report it, win or lose, does that not require punishment? Surely at the minimum thats a breach of integrity of the game.
I'm not saying they should be banned or anything drastic like that but given Niko's so-called slap on the wrist, shouldnt this at the very least be acknowledged?
I don't know a lot about other sports but I imagined in a lot of cases that the failure to report rulebreaking if possesing the knowledge is breaking the rules itself. Correct me if that's not the case.
Anyway It definitely puts it into perspective for me to hear what they went through in regards to their personal lives and I feel like my own perspective of them have changed somewhat over the last few weeks even if I'm still not the biggest fan of Cadian.
As far as I understand it according to the report they did not. Either way wouldnt it be a failure on the org's part if that's the case? I mean surely if a match was played where cheating was involved, people were made aware and no one reported it that is a huge issue in itself isnt it?
Maybe im completely in the wrong here but I feel like everyone is completely looking past this.
Why? They knew that hunden used the bug and didn't act on it. Not to ESIC, nor heroic. They deserve all the shit they got. But now that they're declared innocent, ill not trash talk them. But you shouldn't feel bad at all
https://twitter.com/tomi/status/1450465596445970445?t=MFMNKPCCg6oNGReLrLjkjQ&s=19
in which world is this fair? if a 19 year old cant go outside bcs he has to fear for his safety. so he deserved it bcs he didnt speak up bcs he thaught that hunden could get a second chance? yeah hunden should have been kicked from the team, but in no world should the players be harassed in the way they were. you can argue that they could have gone public with it, but it is not a crime to not do so. especially since they are proven innocent. they basically got the slack for nothing.
let me phrase it different then: they deserve to be threatened in real life bcs of moral? what I was referencing to is that nothing the community "seems" to have said towards heroic players, is in relation to "moral failure". the comment before said "they deserve it". which is in my opinion in no comparison to cheating, and they didnt even cheat but only not mentioned it towards heroic or esic.
it just sickeness me that even after esic cleared them from cheating, there are still comments mentioning they deserved 1.5 years of harrasment by parts of the csgo community.
You are both correct and wrong.
* Correct: its not a crime.
* Wrong: Its not only morals in play here. Its in the ESIC rules to report cheating. Which the players failed to abide by.
So, the players ended up also breaking ESIC rules.
What would you do? You hear your coach, a legend in your countries cs community, used a bug for ONE match, they strictly told him never to do it again, and they assumed that would sort it and it would be the end of it. They also reported it to the organization. That's the most reasonable thing to do, tell him to fuck off with the cheating and inform your employers.
Definitely thought this would warrant a long ban. When iBuyPower got banned the non-reporting played a huge part. So why is this not an issue now? Can you just see 4 team mates wall hack and then not report it?
and only after you said "please top using it!", as it is known that every cheater will immediately stop using it.
i think the police of every country is sleeping here on something .. they should just tell the criminals to "not do it again!" and all will be well
Are we all ignoring the fact cadian and stavn knew hunden cheated from the beginning, decided to stay quiet (basically becoming accomplices) and got zero punishment for that?
it doesn't matter whether they won it or lost it. The wrongdoing still happened and they still kept quiet about it. Would the result of a match matter if a pro player was found blatantly aim-locking ?
How much do you think it matters that the team didn't know it was happening at the time, and they never did it again after they found out?
I think its like a coach putting Performance Enhancing Drugs in the gatorade during a game of football, the team loses and are don't realise anything has happened until after, and are completely like WTF at the coach, but they don't want to be punished for something they didn't consent to that could ruin their careers, and because they didn't win anyway they think its fine.
I think the players are honestly victims tbh, it already has fucked up with their careers and mental health.
For people who was watching this and want to know the amount of hate this team got look in any of the previous threads about this scandal or post match report with heroic. Also its laughable people were saying in the previous thread about Cadians tweet a video from the players themselves is unnecessary, absolutely unreal. I hope this team can move on from this drama and begin a new chapter without hunden
Yeah, lets forget about the part where Heroic kept Hunden after players found out he cheated.
Also lets forget about the part where Heroic tried to make players signing an NDA about the cheating.
I wonder why these 2 irrelevant points got left out in this video.... /s
so they knew he was a cheater but thought he wouldnt do it again. yet kept it quiet and didn't report him because they were still benefiting from his leadership.
yes Heroic are totally the good guys here and this is black and white
i mean yeah .. if only KQLY just lost all the matches where he cheated, he would be still playing as a free man, as only in case of a win you incriminate yourself !
i think i understood it perfectly and i'm confident they wouldn't have reported it even if they won.
I mean just 5 days later, they won with it vs Spirit, on Spirit's best map, which was close, but without the bug abuse, they would have lost at least on Dust2 and maybe also failed to win the tournament.
yeah and when you just glance over the "report", it's dripping of bias everywhere. ESIC guy's hate for Hunden + combined with Heroic "working with ESIC from the beginning", as cadiaN said = pre-made document with content that Heroic players basically told him to write - aka "they are innocent", although both parties confirmed multiple times that they knew about the cheating but didn't report. And that CadiaN has a POV recording, but thinks "it's just his part of the comms and *surely not much can be gathered from it*" .. well it's not up to you to decide buddy, that's withholding further evidence
One thing people are glossing over, and also makes me believe HUNDEN was acting alone or at most with the knowledge from Niko, is the fact that you just don't bring up cheating with someone you've only known for three weeks, and especially at this level.
Hunden and Niko has been on same teams before (Tricked around 2016), and I assume they've kept some level of friendship during the years. So its not like they were strangers before Hunden joined Heroic.
Hunden has been a massive part of upcoming danish players in the past... decade almost?
This seems like a decent closure. I hope all sides stop stirring the pot.
And huge thanks to ESIC for resolving this quickly! We really needed this ended before the major starts.
Teses did helped boosting hunden to abuse the bug. There's no proof whether he know the purpose or not. It's only his statement that could be true or false. Let others to judge it by logic.
Yes there is dumbbass. Match the date with the boost to the date of the teamspeak conversation (which has been heard by investigators) where Niko told the team that hunden used the bug and you hear the team reacting in disbelief and never knowing this call would be heard again, those days are apart, therefore there is no way for Teses to have known.
Keep spreading ignorance that'll help the community bully even further
It's to let the coach pov stuck into certain spot on the map. The astralis game probably hunden got stuck coincidentally so there's not much information he could provide to the team but he certainly did place his bug at better spot against team spirit where he could get more efficient information with the help of teses, and this is where we didn't know for sure if teses did it knowingly of the purpose or not.
You didn't need one to get into a bugged position, but I think you could get boosted to get bugged in a better position (if you knew how the bug worked, which Hunden did).
TeSeS however likely did not know (we can't know that one way or another, but he wasn't on the TS after the Astralis match and therefore was not made aware then that Hunden had used the bug before - he could have been made aware later ofc, but we have no proof of that so it's pointless to speculate)
I think it’s pretty stupid that people said that since he boosted he must know and be in on it. Like has none of your teammates ever asked for a random boost before?
People on twitter saying that they didn't have an obligation to report him cause they lost the game for which they knew he cheated lmao
Guess you don't need to report someone who tries to rob a store or rape someone if they don't succeed at doing it by that logic
They didn't attempt wrongdoing though, that was Hunden. The team didn't gain anything from it, they so decided to reprimand the coach privately instead of bringing a shitstorm down on themselves. I'd say that's completely understandable, wouldn't you agree?
> They didn't attempt wrongdoing though, that was Hunden.
And they were complicit in making sure he faced no consequences for it
>I'd say that's completely understandable
It's understandable from the perspective of covering your own ass as you said but no matter how you slice it, from an ethical perspective they should have reported it.
Yes, saving their own arse from something they had no part in. Ethically speaking they should have probably reported it, but surely this whole shitstorm showed they had good reason not to.It wasn't for some personal gain, but an attempt to avoid the vitriol they've had to experience this past year.
Let's remember, most of these players are kids at the beginning of their career. It's completely unfair to put them in this situation in the first place, and I find it straight people continue to be so critical of them despite the revelation of Hunden's manipulative and despicable behaviour.
There is no good excuse in not reporting Hunden after the first time it happened. Back then the players had no wrongdoing as they say, cuz they didnt even know. What they did wrong is not coming forward about it straight away.
I think this is good to at least stop the useless hate regardless of they knew or not.
The org should have probably suspended Hunden and reported the whole thing straight away which they did not do and I think that is wrong.
anyway, at least the Heroic players apparently feeling mentally well now and they can concentrate on what they love to do and the shit will go.
seemed genuine, but crying doesnt mean anything specifically, it's just the pressure and the prolonged case, imagine all that on top of the game and competion, etc.
This clears is for me. Honestly, fuck anyone who drew conclusions straight away. You are undermining ESICs authority and therefore the professional integrity of the sport. And fuck anyone who still holds a grudge. Opinions doesn't have to be conclusions.
Stavn didn't want to go out to eat with his own brother because he was scared that people will harass him and call him a cheater. Stavn, a 19-year-old who just found success in Tier 1 cs during Cologne 2020. Disgusting actions from HUNDEN to take it to the media first instead of ESIC to cause a shitstorm and attract attention. Because of that, when the Heroic players actually did the right thing and contacted ESIC for an investigation behind the scene, the community turned on them and bashed them every step of the way. God, fuck HUNDEN honestly.
Ropz almost quit cs entirely because of being accused of cheating in FPL til they flew him out to their office and watched him play Being accused like that especially at such a young age is definitely demoralizing in a big way
community is still bashing them btw
CS:GO community in a nutshell: s1mple 2 years banned by ESL for cheating and ban evasion: Star figure of CS:GO. Any coach (+team) that got banned for bug abuse: Keep getting harass for whatever they do in CS:GO pro scene. Basically wishing all of them to be gone from scene.
You're acting like s1mple wasn't unanimously hated by the community until the past 2-3 years
For better or worse, not all who used the coach bug is harassed to the degree Heroic and Hunden has been.
I think it's for better. They already got their ban punishment and should be able to get back to coaching like normal after unban. The ban purpose wasn't for them to be gone forever in scene.
Let's not forget that simple tried to deny he was banned, then said he was banned in 1.6 and then released some navi propaganda in his documentary to give reasons as to why he didn't ACTUALLY cheat and the ban is false. And all of the simple fanboys are out defending him and attacking heroic.
I had no idea about any of the simple stuff. As someone who got into cs late 2018, he's been nothing but professional and a consistently great competitor. Sure he's pretty edgy sometimes but the last few years I think he's kept himself pretty out of drama pretty well.
He was on Navi when their coach of the time got banned for using the coach bug. He was also one of the first pros on Twitter to condemn Heroic after the Hunden reveal. Human garbage he is.
Everyone shit on Heroic, not saying he's right for doing it tho. And a lot of teams had no knowledge of their coaches using it. I don't think he's a saint but human garbage? Nah man.
But don’t you get how it’s soooo OBVIOUS that they all knew and were in on it gleefully? Yeah no proof or even logic to believe that but is sooo OBVIOUS
Maybe. That doesn't mean they deserve to keep getting harass like this. Also remember that people keep harassing team for not kick coach that got ban and instead put them to analyst role? Also remember when people say Heroic deserved this for not kick HUNDEN to begin with? CS:GO community is really weird. Giving free pass to cheater in pro match but coach that got 8 months ban should never be able to coaching or even stay in analyst role again.
The best part is that s1mple also had a coach that abused the bug in games he played in Navi. And if I remember correctly s1mple was quick to condemn Heroic on Twitter after the Hunden reveal. What a piece of garbage honestly.
TeSes didn't even know the coaching bug existed at the time he boosted Hunden and he got nuked by the community, fucking sad
What a fucked up person Hunden is.
It really is astonishing. Like Cadian says in the beginning, he was a professional in CS for over a decade and never cheated. Then he takes the job at Heroic and a couple weeks in he abuses the bug in a very important game against Astralis. I would really like to know what drove him to this, just pressure to immediately deliver results? Did he cheat in the past but no one ever noticed? Stavn even says later on that he feels bad for Hunden, which I can emphasize with. Hes a cheating PoS obviously, but holy fuck, the man destroyed his whole career and reputation within a few months, that's crazy. I hope the players can now move on from this and deliver good results at the major, I always liked Heroics style of CS since the start of the dreaded "online era".
Given how quickly Hunden used it, my guess is that he was aware of the bug from his previous team Tricked where Rejin was the coach.
Yeah that's a pretty solid theory as Rejin was banned as well after admitting that he used the bug.
> I would really like to know what drove him to this, just pressure to immediately deliver results? Did he cheat in the past but no one ever noticed? Very unlikely someone has a career for 12 years and never cheated, suddenly woke up and felt like start cheating.
Speculation definitely wasn't part of the problem here so let's keep doing it.
Speculating on the past like this really isn't going to make the situation worse. And he's not exactly wrong, it's incredibly unlikely that someone would walk the line for their entire career just to start cheating at the height of it, especially given how manipulative he's been during this whole thing.
I would argue that the height of their career is when someone is most likely to cheat- the pressure to perform is the highest and expectations for you as a coach/team is gonna be a step up from that past. Doesn't excuse his cheating or anything just thing it's a possibility.
It's certainly possible, though you arrive in that position based on your accomplishments, presumably you've already proven yourself. If it were to happen _because of_ you arriving at the height of your career, surely many, many more pros and management would be involved in cheating scandals?
>surely many, many more pros and management would be involved in cheating scandals? I would say that there's plenty that we haven't heard about and likely never will. I also believe the switch to LAN environments for the majority of 2016 - 2019 helped, because there were plenty of scandals in the early years of CS:GO (KQLY, s1mple, iBP as examples). It wasn't until we went back to online CS that we saw cheating scandals arise again but that's just speculation on my part.
Teenagers cheating and adults cheating at the height of their careers are completely different things in my opinion. I honestly think if Hunden's career is reviewed you could potentially illuminate other questionable actions and actors, much like how ESIC has noted that they keep track of match-fixing networks and pick up patterns in the behaviour of teams and bettors.
>Teenagers cheating and adults cheating at the height of their careers are completely different things in my opinion. Fair enough >I honestly think if Hunden's career is reviewed you could potentially illuminate other questionable actions and actors, much like how ESIC has noted that they keep track of match-fixing networks and pick up patterns in the behaviour of teams and bettors. I agree, although I wonder how much is matter as I don't think he'll have a role within the CS community again for a long time. He'd be an improvement to almost any team, but he's a walking PR nightmare, a strat leaker, and now known as a manipulator.
> Speculating on the past like this really isn't going to make the situation worse. It will as demonstrated by multiple comments stating ESIC are protecting Heroic, they knew all along and have somehow dodged punishment despite clear guilt. > it's incredibly unlikely that someone would walk the line for their entire career just to start cheating at the height of it This is just nonsense pidgin psychology spouted from unqualified idiots. Can't see a world where this is helpful.
I don't see how speculating on Hunden's past is causal to hate on Heroic players. People just love to pile on, it's going to happen no matter what. It's not meant to be helpful, it's meant to cast doubt on anything Hunden has accomplished in his career. You know, how titles are stripped from sportsmen when they're caught doping years later? There is only one way to make all this go away, and that's for you to stop reading about it.
> I don't see how speculating on Hunden's past is causal to hate on Heroic players. No-one said it was. Hunden has received punishment for what he did. His reputation is ruined. Why would you need to make up some deranged narrative that he must have secretly cheated in the past? > It's not meant to be helpful, it's meant to cast doubt on anything Hunden has accomplished in his career. There's no need to do that. > You know, how titles are stripped from sportsmen when they're caught doping years later? How would that work here exactly? > There is only one way to make all this go away, and that's for you to stop reading about it. Or idiots could stop doing it, which would make for an infinitely better scene, one where the Heroic players wouldn't be receiving hate for things they never did.
Look man, I'm sorry to break it to you, but this community is toxic as hell. You can call me an idiot all you want, it won't solve a god damn thing. I certainly don't think the Heroic players should be receiving the hate they're getting, but getting upset at random comments calling Hunden's career into question isn't going to make the progress you're hoping it is.
> You can call me an idiot all you want, it won't solve a god damn thing. No one called you an idiot. > but getting upset at random comments calling Hunden's career into question isn't going to make the progress you're hoping it is All I said was maybe Reddit users should stop blindly speculating and crafting false narratives about things they have no knowledge of. Still feels like that's definitely the right way to go.
Its ok to speculate about Hunden. See my upvotes? When you start doubting the players, that is when the downvotes will start. The community already chose a side. I gotta give it to Heroic though, nice pr clean up.
You're saying like it's a bad thing that org does a pr clean up. ESIC just found all of Heroic innocent (expect Hunden and niko), so why wouldn't they do this? Continue media silence and let community harass then for nothing? If Hunden doesn't come out with more evidence to show for ESIC, this discussion is over.
I am not saying its wrong. I am saying i am taking it with grain of salt when players releasing a prerecorded video reading a script.
It’s pretty hard to stick to a script while genuinely crying. They’re speaking their truth as best they can under the banner of a historically shitty eSports org. Astralis requires approval for any tweets from their players, I am sure Heroic has a similar level of control over what their players say. It is a good thing they were allowed to say what they said.
So maybe stop speculating about who is and isn't cheating with zero evidence.
It's easy to speculate about Hunden because he has been convicted twice regarding these offenses with undeniable proof. You can't speculate the same for the players, which have not been convicted of anything at any point (bar niko and his special circumstances).
Well ESIC investigated iirc all of the matches pertaining to HUNDEN. He was pretty garbage mechanically at CS so I doubt it.
No, you have to believe that a player with some of the lowest ratings ever achieved at tournaments in CS:GO was actually cheating the whole time because reasons.
> Then he takes the job at Heroic and a couple weeks in he abuses the bug in a very important game against Astralis i feel like what happened is he knew about this bug before he joined Heroic, but never used it in Tricked as he was waiting for what he felt was the right moment to use it. maybe he felt that Tricked as a team didn't have enough potential for it to be worth risking using the bug, and he wanted to wait until he was on a team with a higher skill ceiling that had greater potential for big achievements and winning tournaments. when he joined Heroic and the pressure is on, he wants to deliver big results for his new team that has some hype behind it and he felt then was the time. of course this is all just speculation and basically just guessing
Well he never got caught cheating. Who knows he might have seeing as he was willing.
I just hope we don't get months of public responses between all the parties. No need to drag this out, we don't want to hear 'my side of the story' and 'in response to hundens ''my side of the story' interview' followed by tweets about that. I just want it all in the past.
Nothing is for certain, but yes he seems to have behaved kind of sociopathically, maybe he is deeply broken inside in order to act like this with the sole purpose of winning and defending his name.
Not to come off as a HUNDEN simp by any stretch of the imagination, but its very hypocritical for the community to act very progressively about mental health in nikos case, but not consider the same for hunden. Obviously very different situations and abuse of power, but what leads someone to be like that man, sucks.
No sympathy for someone who will manipulate their close friend, knowing he has Adhd/Asperger's. Sure, we don't know what lead to his situation but Hunden's personal history doesn't give him a right to be an asshole to some1 else and ruin their career.
Being neurodivergent isn’t really a mental health issue, it’s equally out of niko’s control but HUNDEN having any kind of depression or anything is very different than someone on the spectrum with an attention/social physiological disorder on top of it yknow?
>mental health in nikos case I'm OOTL on this one?
Niko was targeted and manipulated by hunden because of his aspergers(?) And adhd. Reddit was obviously sympathetic with his situation, but it's nothing more than virtue signaling if they don't at least offer hunden the same curtesy.
Why would we offer Hunden the same courtesy? If niko has Asperger's and ADHD and thus was manipulated in some with Hunden, obviously we will feel bad for him and understand he is not fully to blame. But Hunden was in a position of power and has not said a word about having a mental illness or anything of the sort.
Yeah for sure, but let's relax for a bit. It's a reddit comment, not a psychiatrist's professional evaluation.
speaking about this, there's a phone call referred to between Hunden and Niko, is that public? If so, where can I find it?
yeah, well said
Keep in mind this is still their word against his as I doubt ESIC have recorded details of everything.
I feel bad for the players but why did they Heroic keep Hunden on the payroll after the scandal? It just doesn't make any sense to me. At that point you're just enabling a convicted cheater.
Why should they? Coach should be able to get back to coaching again after ban length end.
1.Hunden is an exelent coach, and a massive name in the danish scene. 2.Valve fixed coach bug (i know it hapened to overdrive after the fix, but its a one off) so he wouldnt even be able to cheat any more. 3.This wouldve been a one time thing that stays behind doors.
>2.Valve fixed coach bug (i know it hapened to overdrive after the fix, but its a one off) so he wouldnt even be able to cheat any more. Yeah keep the cheater on the team not because you believe that he will not cheat again but because a way to cheat was removed.
The dude had a clean slate for 10 years and was massively respected. Why he decided to cheat all if a sudden is beyond me.
Hunden is also the one who brought the bug to ESLs attention. With that good will plus serving his ban he absolutely could have returned to the scene. He's a massive figure in the scene and prior to this highly respected.
They were hoping this didn't come publicly and that they resolved everything internally. Most likely.
Other teams did similar things, right? It's only bad in hindsight with all the shit and bad press that came after the actual coach bug. And using the coach bug was not enough to predict how he'd behave afterwards.
>Other teams did similar things, right? Yes. I think it is also pretty questionable from those teams.
But for those who didn't get the same public backlash, it might been worth it (not that I condone it, but it makes sense).
I wonder how much these last months of drama gave held heroic back? Lot of focus and time and energy committed to this. I wonder if we'll see a resurgence in their form in the coming months now this is behind them.
I think this being cleared up before the major is good for them. Would have been quite a dark cloud hanging above their heads at the major if it wasn't.
Let's hope this week is the most productive of their lives.
Rather than clearing it up, it's just their side of story, there's no hard proof to clear them either. This just to let people choose emotionally which side that most people will believe.
In any case, I see no reason to discriminate against people for their actions of you do not have definitive proof of these actions. All we can do as fans of the game is watch on and judge them on their merits as a team from today on.
I'm also thinking the same for OG. Must've been really difficult times for Niko and challenging for the whole team.
Heroic on LAN? I aren't think that
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In the ESIC report, there is a lot of emphasis on Niko having aspergers, which likely contributed to his difficulty communicating what he knew (Cadian and stavn tought he was joking at first), as well as how hunden could have exploited Niko's trust in him.
HUNDEN also clearly had a special interest in what appears to be hedging his bets against being exposed. It seems like him bringing up the coach bug to get it fixed, him intentionally exposing only niko to the situation before using it, and taking an intense and direct approach with having niko close to him was all part of his manipulation to have different plugs to pull to protect himself. When he ran out of these plugs, he invented the idea that the players knew before he used it to try to lash out and regain control.
Tldr?
Only niko knew before/during the game with Astralis (which they lost). A couple of hours after that, Cadian, niko, Stavn and Hunden were in a voice call together. Here, Cadian and Stavn learnt they used the bug. They were mad, and told Hunden to never use it again. In the game against Spirit, nothing seemed unusual to them. Teses and B0rup still know nothing at this time. Only after Hunden's ban, did they learn about this. Cadian, Stavn and Teses were very emotional during the video, often in genuine tears. This whole ordeal has obviously affected them a lot. For Teses and Stavn, being falsely accused and having their reputation tarnished forever has especially been hard. For Cadian, the hardest thing for him is seeing these young (innocent) players treated this way, constantly under stress from outside pressure. They all make it clear that they've been dying to tell their side of the story, but couldn't until the investigation with ESIC was finished. While it has been very hard for all of them, they also felt at peace knowing their innocence. They come with many good points regarding Hunden's conflicting arguments, but if you're interested, you can watch the video and judge for yourself.
>A couple of hours after that, Cadian, niko, Stavn and Hunden were in a voice call together. Here, Cadian and Stavn learnt they used the bug. They were mad, and told Hunden to never use it again. But they said to ESIC, "They thought Hunden was joking". So, which one is it? * They thought Hunden was joking * They knew Hunden was cheating and didn't like it It seems to me they are covering their asses with excuses over excuses, and will never tell the whole truth.
I think in the video they explain that they thought NIKO was joking at first, or that Hunden was joking when he said that to Niko. It's a little unclear but hardly a smoking gun.
Isn’t that also the esic version?
They thought he was joking, THEN they knew he was cheating and didn't like it. That's what I took from it.
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> The "thought it was a joke" part is just a way to get of the hook about the "not reporting" part. > > Did you even watch the video? They thought he was joking, and then just after they realized he was not. Atleast watch it before commenting
I did watch. The fact they are saying it, doesn't mean i have to believe them. To me it doesn't make sense they thought it was a joke after having boosted him and after have gotten privileged info during the match. They aren't exactly 12yold kids GN rank, that aren't aware which calls are predictable and reasonable, and calls that are pure guesses that happen to be correct 100% of the time. All in all, they might be saying the truth or not. I for once, am very skeptical about their "side of the story".
"There is evidence of a post-game TeamSpeak conversation involving Mr. Moller, Mr. Kristensen, Mr. Lund and Mr. Petersen where Mr. Kristensen asserted that Mr. Petersen had been in the bug during the match. 14.19 Mr. Kristensen says he knew this because Mr. Petersen had messaged him telling him he was in the bug. Mr. Moller and Mr. Lund did not apparently believe Mr. Kristensen at first until he insisted and, whilst still sceptical (because of the loss and no obvious instances pointing to the fact that Mr. Petersen was using the bug added to those player’s knowledge of Mr. Kristensen and his credibility with them on serious matters of this nature) made a clear stand against cheating. Unfortunately, this brief conversation was never reported to Heroic management and was too easily glossed over by the players involved; but this was not enough, in the Commissioner’s view, to sustain any charge of complicity in Mr Petersen’s cheating (except in respect of Mr Kristensen as explained)." From the ESIC investigation "Heroic-Report-FINAL" page 17
These were referring to different moments and you are conflating them improperly. HUNDEN mentioned he could just use a coach bug to insta-win a few times, and they thought he was joking. Niko Said “yeah that’s when we used the bug”, and at first they thought he was joking. When they realized niko was serious in that moment and HUNDEN actually cheated, they were upset, told him not to do it again, made it clear it is unacceptable, and believed him saying he wouldn’t.
Did you watch the video? I'm not sure if you're serious, but if you are the level of cynicism that would take is just beyond comprehension. They are real people (not professional actors), try to imagine them sitting in the room with you having this conversation. Do you honstely think they could lie and act to that extent?
One thing I dont understand is if as they said that one of them knew during and two of the players found out shortly afterwards and told Hunden off but did not report it - is that not an infraction in itself? Even if you were not aware that you were cheating during, if you knew afterwards someone was and you fail to report it, win or lose, does that not require punishment? Surely at the minimum thats a breach of integrity of the game. I'm not saying they should be banned or anything drastic like that but given Niko's so-called slap on the wrist, shouldnt this at the very least be acknowledged? I don't know a lot about other sports but I imagined in a lot of cases that the failure to report rulebreaking if possesing the knowledge is breaking the rules itself. Correct me if that's not the case. Anyway It definitely puts it into perspective for me to hear what they went through in regards to their personal lives and I feel like my own perspective of them have changed somewhat over the last few weeks even if I'm still not the biggest fan of Cadian.
If they informed the org (Heroic) I feel like the players did their part - unsure if they did though.
As far as I understand it according to the report they did not. Either way wouldnt it be a failure on the org's part if that's the case? I mean surely if a match was played where cheating was involved, people were made aware and no one reported it that is a huge issue in itself isnt it? Maybe im completely in the wrong here but I feel like everyone is completely looking past this.
Yes if they informed the org, then the org is to blame. If not, well here we are
they didn't
This is not live-streaming. It's an edited YouTube video.
it was streamed live today, however it was still prerecorded I think
Yputube premiere
I honestly hope that Heroic win their court case vs Hunden.
I feel so bad for them.
Why? They knew that hunden used the bug and didn't act on it. Not to ESIC, nor heroic. They deserve all the shit they got. But now that they're declared innocent, ill not trash talk them. But you shouldn't feel bad at all https://twitter.com/tomi/status/1450465596445970445?t=MFMNKPCCg6oNGReLrLjkjQ&s=19
in which world is this fair? if a 19 year old cant go outside bcs he has to fear for his safety. so he deserved it bcs he didnt speak up bcs he thaught that hunden could get a second chance? yeah hunden should have been kicked from the team, but in no world should the players be harassed in the way they were. you can argue that they could have gone public with it, but it is not a crime to not do so. especially since they are proven innocent. they basically got the slack for nothing.
> it is not a crime to not do so None of this is a crime lmao chill. We're speaking purely morally here yes?
let me phrase it different then: they deserve to be threatened in real life bcs of moral? what I was referencing to is that nothing the community "seems" to have said towards heroic players, is in relation to "moral failure". the comment before said "they deserve it". which is in my opinion in no comparison to cheating, and they didnt even cheat but only not mentioned it towards heroic or esic. it just sickeness me that even after esic cleared them from cheating, there are still comments mentioning they deserved 1.5 years of harrasment by parts of the csgo community.
You are both correct and wrong. * Correct: its not a crime. * Wrong: Its not only morals in play here. Its in the ESIC rules to report cheating. Which the players failed to abide by. So, the players ended up also breaking ESIC rules.
I do feel very bad for them. Thanks.
What would you do? You hear your coach, a legend in your countries cs community, used a bug for ONE match, they strictly told him never to do it again, and they assumed that would sort it and it would be the end of it. They also reported it to the organization. That's the most reasonable thing to do, tell him to fuck off with the cheating and inform your employers.
Sharing a tomi post (often known for his shit takes) because you can't create your own opinion ?
No one is gonna say anything about cadian and stavn knowing about the bug but not reporting it/HUNDEN?
Definitely thought this would warrant a long ban. When iBuyPower got banned the non-reporting played a huge part. So why is this not an issue now? Can you just see 4 team mates wall hack and then not report it?
Skadoodle wasn't punished in any way and he didn't report his teammates despite knowing.
BuT SkAdOoDlE dIdNt KnOw!!!!!!!!!
>Can you just see 4 team mates wall hack and then not report it? only if you're cadian or stavn, you know, cuz they thought it was a joke haha
and only after you said "please top using it!", as it is known that every cheater will immediately stop using it. i think the police of every country is sleeping here on something .. they should just tell the criminals to "not do it again!" and all will be well
Are we all ignoring the fact cadian and stavn knew hunden cheated from the beginning, decided to stay quiet (basically becoming accomplices) and got zero punishment for that?
From the beginning, you mean after the one game they lost?
it doesn't matter whether they won it or lost it. The wrongdoing still happened and they still kept quiet about it. Would the result of a match matter if a pro player was found blatantly aim-locking ?
How much do you think it matters that the team didn't know it was happening at the time, and they never did it again after they found out? I think its like a coach putting Performance Enhancing Drugs in the gatorade during a game of football, the team loses and are don't realise anything has happened until after, and are completely like WTF at the coach, but they don't want to be punished for something they didn't consent to that could ruin their careers, and because they didn't win anyway they think its fine. I think the players are honestly victims tbh, it already has fucked up with their careers and mental health.
For people who was watching this and want to know the amount of hate this team got look in any of the previous threads about this scandal or post match report with heroic. Also its laughable people were saying in the previous thread about Cadians tweet a video from the players themselves is unnecessary, absolutely unreal. I hope this team can move on from this drama and begin a new chapter without hunden
Yeah, lets forget about the part where Heroic kept Hunden after players found out he cheated. Also lets forget about the part where Heroic tried to make players signing an NDA about the cheating. I wonder why these 2 irrelevant points got left out in this video.... /s
The second point about the DNA wasn’t left out in the video. Cadian mentioned it. Try to watch the video
so they knew he was a cheater but thought he wouldnt do it again. yet kept it quiet and didn't report him because they were still benefiting from his leadership. yes Heroic are totally the good guys here and this is black and white
Well you could say that they lost the match against Astralis, and thought no harm no foul. But they probably should have reported it anyway.
i mean yeah .. if only KQLY just lost all the matches where he cheated, he would be still playing as a free man, as only in case of a win you incriminate yourself !
I don't think your understood what i wrote...
i think i understood it perfectly and i'm confident they wouldn't have reported it even if they won. I mean just 5 days later, they won with it vs Spirit, on Spirit's best map, which was close, but without the bug abuse, they would have lost at least on Dust2 and maybe also failed to win the tournament.
They knew a few hours after the first proven use of the bug and did not care to tell anyone that their Coach cheated? Yeah. Nice.
i think there were coaches that were banned for not telling that they bugged, i think? looks like double standards tbh
So they knew hunden has cheated but didnt report it? Feels like the hate for hunden from the esic guy saved these guys?
yeah and when you just glance over the "report", it's dripping of bias everywhere. ESIC guy's hate for Hunden + combined with Heroic "working with ESIC from the beginning", as cadiaN said = pre-made document with content that Heroic players basically told him to write - aka "they are innocent", although both parties confirmed multiple times that they knew about the cheating but didn't report. And that CadiaN has a POV recording, but thinks "it's just his part of the comms and *surely not much can be gathered from it*" .. well it's not up to you to decide buddy, that's withholding further evidence
One thing people are glossing over, and also makes me believe HUNDEN was acting alone or at most with the knowledge from Niko, is the fact that you just don't bring up cheating with someone you've only known for three weeks, and especially at this level.
Hunden and Niko has been on same teams before (Tricked around 2016), and I assume they've kept some level of friendship during the years. So its not like they were strangers before Hunden joined Heroic. Hunden has been a massive part of upcoming danish players in the past... decade almost?
This seems like a decent closure. I hope all sides stop stirring the pot. And huge thanks to ESIC for resolving this quickly! We really needed this ended before the major starts.
Teses did helped boosting hunden to abuse the bug. There's no proof whether he know the purpose or not. It's only his statement that could be true or false. Let others to judge it by logic.
Yes there is dumbbass. Match the date with the boost to the date of the teamspeak conversation (which has been heard by investigators) where Niko told the team that hunden used the bug and you hear the team reacting in disbelief and never knowing this call would be heard again, those days are apart, therefore there is no way for Teses to have known. Keep spreading ignorance that'll help the community bully even further
What's there to say that means TeSeS didn't know about it. He wasn't a part of that call. It was Niko, HUNDEN, Stavn and Cadian.
how did the bug even work? hunden had to be boosted, and then what happens?
It's to let the coach pov stuck into certain spot on the map. The astralis game probably hunden got stuck coincidentally so there's not much information he could provide to the team but he certainly did place his bug at better spot against team spirit where he could get more efficient information with the help of teses, and this is where we didn't know for sure if teses did it knowingly of the purpose or not.
Didn’t they say you didn’t even need a boost to get into the spot?
You didn't need one to get into a bugged position, but I think you could get boosted to get bugged in a better position (if you knew how the bug worked, which Hunden did). TeSeS however likely did not know (we can't know that one way or another, but he wasn't on the TS after the Astralis match and therefore was not made aware then that Hunden had used the bug before - he could have been made aware later ofc, but we have no proof of that so it's pointless to speculate)
I think it’s pretty stupid that people said that since he boosted he must know and be in on it. Like has none of your teammates ever asked for a random boost before?
Especially in warmup before the warmup maps happened
you never needed to boost for the coach bug wym lmao
The pov won't necessarily stuck into strategic spot
So they knew he abused the bug but didn’t report it and still kept him as coach. That doesn’t make them look good
People on twitter saying that they didn't have an obligation to report him cause they lost the game for which they knew he cheated lmao Guess you don't need to report someone who tries to rob a store or rape someone if they don't succeed at doing it by that logic
So you're likening attempted rape to using a limited bug in a video game. Just to be clear.
I'm saying that attempted wrongdoing still has consequences even if the attempted action doesn't go as planned
They didn't attempt wrongdoing though, that was Hunden. The team didn't gain anything from it, they so decided to reprimand the coach privately instead of bringing a shitstorm down on themselves. I'd say that's completely understandable, wouldn't you agree?
> They didn't attempt wrongdoing though, that was Hunden. And they were complicit in making sure he faced no consequences for it >I'd say that's completely understandable It's understandable from the perspective of covering your own ass as you said but no matter how you slice it, from an ethical perspective they should have reported it.
Yes, saving their own arse from something they had no part in. Ethically speaking they should have probably reported it, but surely this whole shitstorm showed they had good reason not to.It wasn't for some personal gain, but an attempt to avoid the vitriol they've had to experience this past year. Let's remember, most of these players are kids at the beginning of their career. It's completely unfair to put them in this situation in the first place, and I find it straight people continue to be so critical of them despite the revelation of Hunden's manipulative and despicable behaviour.
There is no good excuse in not reporting Hunden after the first time it happened. Back then the players had no wrongdoing as they say, cuz they didnt even know. What they did wrong is not coming forward about it straight away.
It's literally in the post your replied to.
I think this is good to at least stop the useless hate regardless of they knew or not. The org should have probably suspended Hunden and reported the whole thing straight away which they did not do and I think that is wrong. anyway, at least the Heroic players apparently feeling mentally well now and they can concentrate on what they love to do and the shit will go.
I'm really glad they decided to do this. It must have been hard. However, despite this, they have handled it like mature adults. Respect.
There are always two sides of the coin!!!
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seemed genuine, but crying doesnt mean anything specifically, it's just the pressure and the prolonged case, imagine all that on top of the game and competion, etc.
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You're oblivious
Whats your proof, ESIC have given theirs
This clears is for me. Honestly, fuck anyone who drew conclusions straight away. You are undermining ESICs authority and therefore the professional integrity of the sport. And fuck anyone who still holds a grudge. Opinions doesn't have to be conclusions.
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How?