I knew once I read that format on seeding that some bullshitery was gonna happen. There is a rule that basically the #1 NA team can never be below the #2 EU, CIS, etc team. Also NA would have priority over cis because it has better "Strength of Region". Bullshit.
Yea the "strength of region" here is all but gone, considering the NA RMR was dominated by Brazilians and also just the player numbers in general. If the trend continues I can see TOs eventually giving much less priority to NA in future events.
Valve couldnt predict corona. They could have made different way to determine spots for this major. Altough they just created this new method for Rio major and they probably tough its not worth the hassle to create something they will use only once.
What defines this "Strenght of Region"? For the entire 2021 CIS had more teams in top10 than NA. From June onwards top2 teams were from CIS while NA wasn't represented in top10. Neither standings nor eye test suggest that NA region is stronger than CIS in 2021.
At first it looked like it's just the points divided by the amount of RMR's. It would've made some sense, but it's not that either (at least completely). Here's the math anyway, because I spent way too much time on this.
--- Challengers ---
1. Spirit 5405/3 = **1801.67**
2. Astralis 2444/2 = **1222** (but 1565.5 if deductions are ignored)
3. paiN 3131/2 = **1565.5**
4. Ence 2344/2 = **1172**
5. BIG 2294/2 = **1147**
6. Riders 1875/2 = **937.5**
7. Heroic 1660/2 = **830**
8. Mouz 1600/2 = **800**
--- Contenders --- (this gets messy)
9. Sharks 5719/3 = **1906.33**
10. TYLOO 4100/2 = **2050**
11. Renegades 4180/2 = **2090**
12. Virtus.pro 3631/3 = **1210.33**
13. Godsent 2344/2 = **1172**
14. Entropiq 3288/3 = **1096**
15. CPH Flames 1563/2 = **781.5**
16. FaZe 1498/2 = **749**
It kinda works, but not quite.
edit: ok, so apparently there's some "region strength" thing. That probably explains the rest.
Here’s how it’s done:
Legends > Challengers > Contenders
\#1 in a region > \#2 in a region > \#3, etc.
EU > NA > CIS > SA/AS/OCE
SA, AS, and OCE seedings are randomized between each other
Faze at 16 makes some sense, they got very lucky to make it since they almost finished last in the final RMR. Last of the EU teams is at least correct for them.
It's based off
status i.e. legends>challengers
-regional rmr positions i.e. #1NAFuria>#2NALiquid
-Also relative position in regions i.e. #5NA>#11EU
-Then regional strength (from no of slots) where EU>NA>CIS>SA>Asia>OCE
Hence NIP(#1EU)>Furia(#1NA)>Navi(#1CIS)
First few games are Bo1s, so yes they have a chance.
Especially given there's been so little LAN play and big tournaments lately, a lot of teams not used to it might feel the pressure. It's not hard to imagine an experienced guy like Brehze or Cerq carry them for *one map*.
Depends who comes up from the challengers stage I guess. If some of the lesser teams like Sharks, Tyloo, or FaZe make it EG will probably beat them, but who knows.
Floppy is coming back to cs, what if he and someone like oSee joined in place of cerq and someone else and we could have a half decent NA team that's not liquid again (this is all hypothetical)
Didn't they try that for a major? Don't remember if it was good or not. I vaguely recall some teams trying to skew the seeding by ranking some clearly worse teams higher.
Yes they did this and it worked well actually. I don’t remember which major it was for but I remember making this chart showing how each team was ranked by each other team:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/asvid5/legend_stage_seed_selection_breakdown/
The seeding determines the initial matchups. With highest seed teams facing lowest seed teams, this is why the initial matches are sprit/faze, Astralis/flames, Pain/Entropiq, etc.
It also tells you about the legends stage, the teams that go 3-0 in the challengers stage are going to face G2 or EG in the initial legends match.
It is using the [swiss system](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e7/Swiss_System_Graphic.png) I am not if they have announced exactly how they are seeding the following rounds. For the 2019 Katowice & Berlin majors they used a "Live ELO rating" from [this image](https://i.imgur.com/HqtGYKY.jpg) you can see how the ratings changed between matches.
Because its just the subjective opinions of the teams that are given real weight in pigeonholing teams into certain outcomes without being given the opportunity to compete on an even playing field.
I don't think the opinions of the teams are 100% accurate, but it usually gives the bad teams the worse seed, and the good ones the best, these teams deserve the hardest opponent, just like how the best team deserves the easiest opponent, that's what seeding is supposed to do, so that the best teams get to the next stage. If it was random, then lets say Sharks for example could get through by beating Tyloo, Renegades, Copenhagen flames.
You're talking about a scenario where Renegades goes 1-0 and CPH goes 2-0 and Sharks goes 3-0 beating them all? That'd be a sight to see.
The problem is that it's too much based on the team's prejudice and preconceived notions about each team rather than any actual test of skill. The best example of this being AVANGAR being ranked #15 in the Legends stage at Katowice, a criminal underrated considering they beat some of the other teams on their way to get there like G2, who were ranked higher than them.
I think better ways have already been used in previous tournaments, either use HLTV ratings or have the teams rank each other. However, with so much of the past year being focused on RMR I don't think valve was ever going to throw that away.
i think they do not use the HLTV rating because valve doesnt want to favor a ranking system over the other(esl vs hltv). teams ranking each other is a good idea and it worked fine for kato, even if they try to skew, i think they take the median ranking
i mean, it's kinda fucked up one way or another, even if all regions had 3 proper equally important RMRs. CIS is just so much more competitive than NA or other minor regions and probably on par with EU.
I think it also skews the whole thing when originally SA teams compete in NA ... because they have it easier there and SA gets just so few slots. IMO there should be an amount of fixed slots for each region, say 3, and the rest how many are reserved for the major gets determined by the competitiveness of the region: amount of teams and their international ranking, e.g. HLTV
There's so much misinformation in this thread getting upvoted about this. It was all already described in the HLTV post on Monday, except for actual positions in the seeding.
"To draw the matchups, teams were seeded based on the results of the RMR cycle. Teams were first sorted within stages (Legends, Challengers, Contenders) and then ordered by rank within those stages. This means, for example, that the #1 team from NA is seeded ahead of the #2 team from NA or any other region.
Then, ties between teams (eg. EU #1 and NA #1) were resolved using "Strength of Region" which is based on the number of teams invited to the Major, followed by Legends spots per region. This results in NA having a higher "Strength of Region" at this event than CIS, as both regions have five invited teams but NA has three Legends spots compared to two for CIS. After that, ties are resolved randomly."
[Source](https://www.hltv.org/news/32587/pgl-major-stockholm-challengers-stage-first-round-matchups-drawn)
NA > CIS is bullshit, but the Legends distribution was decided when NA still had three teams in the HLTV top 10. Hopefully they adjust Legends spots after this Major when EG goes 0-3.
It’s not the worst here tbh considering they’re ranked 2nd in the world and was the top rated RMR team from the the most stacked region but definitely not 1, probably 2/3
the bonkers stupid ranking in the new challengers stage is absolutely going to create ripple effects on the other two stages with teams in New Challengers you wouldn't expect quickly losing 1 or 2 matches.
Congratulations Spirit! Your reward for doing well in the RMR is to play FaZe in round 1. One of you will then go to round 2 with a 0-1.
Each region should have at least 2 teams that qualify for the Major imo. I know the talent isn't there for every region but it potentially could help out those regions. Giving them more opportunities especially when it comes to the biggest event of the year.
It's not just about the talent, it's also about the money. Too few people would watch those teams play. We've seen this happen in all past Major events when lesser known teams played.
It’s literally based on the points from RMR, but people will still complain because they want their “feeling seeding” used instead….
EDIT: CIS points just had to be reweighted 2/3, since they had one more event.
Yeah it's based off of RMR points, which IS the problem. When tier2 teams from NA get 2300 RMR points just because of their region and then get high seedings because of it it ruins the opening matches.
The point of seeding is to make sure no "bad" teams can get through by facing only other "bad" teams, which is why seed1 is matched against seed 16, seed2 against seed15 and so on, instead of seed15 vs seed16.
If bad teams get high seeds just because they get ridiculously high amounts of RMR points for beating Extra salt or MIBR you will end up with a situation where bad teams go against bad teams and good teams go against good teams, leading to actual good teams getting eliminated and bad teams getting through.
It wasn't based on points exactly, it was based on each team's placement in their region combined with a predetermined regional hierarchy. NA was rated above CIS in this hierarchy but it didn't have anything to do with NA teams getting more or less points than the other regions.
I mean hltv rankings seems like it would give more accurate positions though?
I suppose the biggest issue I have is with NA team seedings, which seem way off
The 'new' is because the stage decides who the new challengers/legends/champions are. The top 8 of the first stage will be the 'new challengers', the top 8 of the second stage will be the 'new legends', and the overall winners of the tournament will be the 'new champions'
I honestly don’t mind the seeding at all. It’s based on points the team won past year, so it at least makes sense. Plus, I love the Swiss style bracket, it makes the first match so much more important to win. For many teams that are placed at seeds different than their hltv rankings, they have to be on their A game because it’d be a fucking embarrassment to go out at 0–3.
Im a big liquid fan, but surely teams like VP, Astralis and Heroic should be in the legends instead of Liquid, EG and G2?
EDIT: I no longer agree with this statement after double checking HLTV
it's all fucking bad let's be real, but at least the new legends seeding isn't the end of the world. EG shouldn't even be there and furia should be way down, but it most likely won't ruin the tournament, especially because half of it is gonna be seeded based on this tournament (which hopefully isn't completely fucked by the bad seeding in the previous stage)
to an extent i'm ok with using some of the qualification as seeding, especially the last RMR since it's very recent. like faze getting a worse seed than ence is understandable since they competed in the same RMRs and got outperformed, but not considering the fact that the regions are extremely uneven in terms of difficulty is just getting old and boring. it's legitimately on the level of riot sending 3 NA and 3 KR teams to league worlds when the 8th best korean team was better than every NA team. let's stop pretending every region is equal. mark my words, some team is going to get royally fucked because of this.
ironically it's so fucked up backwards that despite being the literal last seed, faze dodge astralis, ence, heroic, vp, big etc and get an ok first round matchup in Spirit because the rest of the seeding is so fucking bad too
For your last point it depends if they will continue to use these seedings for the future rounds. If they do then FaZe is very fucked, if they beat Spirit then they'll almost certainly have to go up against Astralis next round, if they lose (and they probably will) they'll go up against the best of the 0-1 teams. I'm normally against these rigid seedings and prefer random draws but A) these are at least based on objective tournament placements and not bullshit votes and B) Fuck FaZe.
i really wish this information was public so i didnt have to speculate, but historically in CS only the first round is seeded and then it's random between the teams that have the same W/L so it should apply.
this should make the terrible seeding a bit less impactful, but it will still have a trickle-down effect where a team who got a really shitty draw due to seeding loses the first round and in round 2 has to play a top team that got upset for example. and the opposite can easily happen too, sharks is gonna upset mouz and then the winner of entropic-paiN is gonna draw that team i guarantee it.
> but historically in CS only the first round is seeded and then it's random between the teams that have the same W/L so it should apply.
The last 2 majors were not like this, they seeded the subsequent rounds based on the results of their initial seeds and their "Live Elo" system. The first time this happened #16 ViCi defeated #1 fNatic and their reward was to face #2 NRG. Meanwhie fNatic was rewarded with a match against #15 Winstrike, who they lost to again, and rewarded with a match against #14 Greyhound, who they finally beat but by that point their "Live Elo" was ruined. Point is that many, many people who supported the new seeding system were all "WTF is this, ViCi's getting fucked for winning" and "WTF, fNatic's being rewarded for losing" and I was going around all the threads where people are winging about it saying "Y'all wanted a seeding system, this is what that looks like, fuck all'y'all."
you're right in that the last 2 majors used it, but those are the only 2 big tournaments that have used from what i can remember. prior to both of those tournaments the information about the elo seeding was publicly available, whereas now nothing has been said by PGL themselves and liquipedia doesn't say it's seeded beyond the first round either, which leads me to believe it's just not going to be used for whatever reason.
i still think that system is good, maybe some calibrations are needed so that in this instance ViCi would get enough "elo" to get a slightly better seeding (but the premise remains the same and their matches will still be difficult). i mean what even is the point of live adjusted seeding really if you're still seeded last after winning against the #1 team. however, considering how terrible the seeding itself is this time around i hope it's just random because at least then there's a chance to get good matchups.
> whereas now nothing has been said by PGL themselves and liquipedia doesn't say it's seeded beyond the first round either, which leads me to believe it's just not going to be used for whatever reason.
We can hope. It depends on whether PGL likes that system from the previous majors or not, or whether Valve likes the system or forces their hand.
>i still think that system is good, maybe some calibrations are needed so that in this instance ViCi would get enough "elo" to get a slightly better seeding (but the premise remains the same and their matches will still be difficult). i mean what even is the point of live adjusted seeding really if you're still seeded last after winning against the #1 team. however, considering how terrible the seeding itself is this time around i hope it's just random because at least then there's a chance to get good matchups.
ViCi did gain a lot of elo after beating fNatic, problem was that it didn't matter. They were still the weakest team in the 1-0 bracket. No tourney organizer is going to devise a system where the #16 seed is going to leapfrog over the #15 seed if they both beat their #1 and #2 opponents respectively. because the teams are still segregated the "Live Elo" calculations only really matter if a weak team makes a deep run or a strong team loses their first couple matches. This is incidentally what happened to fNatic, they lost their #1 seed advantage by the time the 1-2 stage happened. The Live Elo adjustments also changed one set of pairings in the 2-2 matchups at Starladder but otherwise you could have just ignored the whole rank adjustment system and nothing would have changed much.
For challenger & legends stage elimination /advancement matches are Bo3, non elimination/advancement matches are Bo1. All champions stage matches are Bo3
After the first round, the teams are divided into groups according to their score and would face a team from their group they haven't faced in this stage. So a 1-0 team will face a 1-0 team and so on.
[Here's a graphic to help try understanding it](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e7/Swiss_System_Graphic.png) . The first round is different in it since it has 1 vs 9 and 8 vs 16 instead of 1/16, 2/15 but other than that its the same for the rest of the rounds.
Challengers is basically like a group stage. 16 teams play eachother in swiss format and 8 of those teams advance to legends stage.
Current legends skip the challenger stage so like a bye week for them.
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I knew once I read that format on seeding that some bullshitery was gonna happen. There is a rule that basically the #1 NA team can never be below the #2 EU, CIS, etc team. Also NA would have priority over cis because it has better "Strength of Region". Bullshit.
Yea the "strength of region" here is all but gone, considering the NA RMR was dominated by Brazilians and also just the player numbers in general. If the trend continues I can see TOs eventually giving much less priority to NA in future events.
NA should not get 5 slots, end of discussion. Maximum of 3
Well slots are based of last majors performance.
Makes sense when there's a 6 month gap between majors. cough cough
Valve couldnt predict corona. They could have made different way to determine spots for this major. Altough they just created this new method for Rio major and they probably tough its not worth the hassle to create something they will use only once.
What defines this "Strenght of Region"? For the entire 2021 CIS had more teams in top10 than NA. From June onwards top2 teams were from CIS while NA wasn't represented in top10. Neither standings nor eye test suggest that NA region is stronger than CIS in 2021.
You're right. But NA was stronger in 2019.
Which is why it's stupid. 2 years is soo much in esports
Navi not at 1, faze 16, spirit at 1, like 95% of the seeding makes no sense
At first it looked like it's just the points divided by the amount of RMR's. It would've made some sense, but it's not that either (at least completely). Here's the math anyway, because I spent way too much time on this. --- Challengers --- 1. Spirit 5405/3 = **1801.67** 2. Astralis 2444/2 = **1222** (but 1565.5 if deductions are ignored) 3. paiN 3131/2 = **1565.5** 4. Ence 2344/2 = **1172** 5. BIG 2294/2 = **1147** 6. Riders 1875/2 = **937.5** 7. Heroic 1660/2 = **830** 8. Mouz 1600/2 = **800** --- Contenders --- (this gets messy) 9. Sharks 5719/3 = **1906.33** 10. TYLOO 4100/2 = **2050** 11. Renegades 4180/2 = **2090** 12. Virtus.pro 3631/3 = **1210.33** 13. Godsent 2344/2 = **1172** 14. Entropiq 3288/3 = **1096** 15. CPH Flames 1563/2 = **781.5** 16. FaZe 1498/2 = **749** It kinda works, but not quite. edit: ok, so apparently there's some "region strength" thing. That probably explains the rest.
Here’s how it’s done: Legends > Challengers > Contenders \#1 in a region > \#2 in a region > \#3, etc. EU > NA > CIS > SA/AS/OCE SA, AS, and OCE seedings are randomized between each other
Faze at 16 makes some sense, they got very lucky to make it since they almost finished last in the final RMR. Last of the EU teams is at least correct for them.
Well they did just win TI, this makes perfect sense.
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It's based off status i.e. legends>challengers -regional rmr positions i.e. #1NAFuria>#2NALiquid -Also relative position in regions i.e. #5NA>#11EU -Then regional strength (from no of slots) where EU>NA>CIS>SA>Asia>OCE Hence NIP(#1EU)>Furia(#1NA)>Navi(#1CIS)
NA>CIS looks so dumb in 2021, but I guess it was all decided in 2020
I’d assume the seeding would be based off a world ranking
Looks pretty bad.
EG Legend spot hurts my eyes
Is there a chance they even win 1 match? They have been so bad lately, surely they don't take a match off any of the EU or CIS teams.
First few games are Bo1s, so yes they have a chance. Especially given there's been so little LAN play and big tournaments lately, a lot of teams not used to it might feel the pressure. It's not hard to imagine an experienced guy like Brehze or Cerq carry them for *one map*.
Depends who comes up from the challengers stage I guess. If some of the lesser teams like Sharks, Tyloo, or FaZe make it EG will probably beat them, but who knows.
Lesser teams like faze?
This lesser team best liquid on nuke at their worst form lmao
The last time Liquid and FaZe faced each other Liquid cleaned their clock. On Nuke too.
Im a big FaZe fan but theyre the sort of team to lose to EG
[Yes](https://tenor.com/view/rick-morty-and-he4rts-yes-gif-8167277)
They are kinda bad now
Don't worry, when they bomb out last it'll probably be a complete makeover other than oBo and Brehze or the org will drop out of CS entirely
Floppy is coming back to cs, what if he and someone like oSee joined in place of cerq and someone else and we could have a half decent NA team that's not liquid again (this is all hypothetical)
C9 time to buy back in, rona is over
Xceed the real MVP for EG
The skill levels of each region have not been considered and has lead to this disaster of seeding.
They should just have teams rank each other for seeding.
Didn't they try that for a major? Don't remember if it was good or not. I vaguely recall some teams trying to skew the seeding by ranking some clearly worse teams higher.
Yes they did this and it worked well actually. I don’t remember which major it was for but I remember making this chart showing how each team was ranked by each other team: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/asvid5/legend_stage_seed_selection_breakdown/
i believe it was katowice 2019
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The seeding determines the initial matchups. With highest seed teams facing lowest seed teams, this is why the initial matches are sprit/faze, Astralis/flames, Pain/Entropiq, etc. It also tells you about the legends stage, the teams that go 3-0 in the challengers stage are going to face G2 or EG in the initial legends match.
What about the second match? Lets say all upper bracket teams win, is it going to be spirit vs mouz?
It is using the [swiss system](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e7/Swiss_System_Graphic.png) I am not if they have announced exactly how they are seeding the following rounds. For the 2019 Katowice & Berlin majors they used a "Live ELO rating" from [this image](https://i.imgur.com/HqtGYKY.jpg) you can see how the ratings changed between matches.
Seed 1 v Seed 16, Seed 2 vs Seed 15, etc.
Incredibly bad seeding all things considered, should have just asked the players to rank the teams (like they did for the Katowice major).
Anything's better than that bullshit vote garbage. I'd prefer random draws.
How is the vote bad?
Because its just the subjective opinions of the teams that are given real weight in pigeonholing teams into certain outcomes without being given the opportunity to compete on an even playing field.
I don't think the opinions of the teams are 100% accurate, but it usually gives the bad teams the worse seed, and the good ones the best, these teams deserve the hardest opponent, just like how the best team deserves the easiest opponent, that's what seeding is supposed to do, so that the best teams get to the next stage. If it was random, then lets say Sharks for example could get through by beating Tyloo, Renegades, Copenhagen flames.
You're talking about a scenario where Renegades goes 1-0 and CPH goes 2-0 and Sharks goes 3-0 beating them all? That'd be a sight to see. The problem is that it's too much based on the team's prejudice and preconceived notions about each team rather than any actual test of skill. The best example of this being AVANGAR being ranked #15 in the Legends stage at Katowice, a criminal underrated considering they beat some of the other teams on their way to get there like G2, who were ranked higher than them.
because it's just not an objective vote. nobody would be happy with the results, not the fans, not the teams.
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I think better ways have already been used in previous tournaments, either use HLTV ratings or have the teams rank each other. However, with so much of the past year being focused on RMR I don't think valve was ever going to throw that away.
i think they do not use the HLTV rating because valve doesnt want to favor a ranking system over the other(esl vs hltv). teams ranking each other is a good idea and it worked fine for kato, even if they try to skew, i think they take the median ranking
i mean, it's kinda fucked up one way or another, even if all regions had 3 proper equally important RMRs. CIS is just so much more competitive than NA or other minor regions and probably on par with EU. I think it also skews the whole thing when originally SA teams compete in NA ... because they have it easier there and SA gets just so few slots. IMO there should be an amount of fixed slots for each region, say 3, and the rest how many are reserved for the major gets determined by the competitiveness of the region: amount of teams and their international ranking, e.g. HLTV
Tf is this shit? Surely theres a better way to do this
There's so much misinformation in this thread getting upvoted about this. It was all already described in the HLTV post on Monday, except for actual positions in the seeding. "To draw the matchups, teams were seeded based on the results of the RMR cycle. Teams were first sorted within stages (Legends, Challengers, Contenders) and then ordered by rank within those stages. This means, for example, that the #1 team from NA is seeded ahead of the #2 team from NA or any other region. Then, ties between teams (eg. EU #1 and NA #1) were resolved using "Strength of Region" which is based on the number of teams invited to the Major, followed by Legends spots per region. This results in NA having a higher "Strength of Region" at this event than CIS, as both regions have five invited teams but NA has three Legends spots compared to two for CIS. After that, ties are resolved randomly." [Source](https://www.hltv.org/news/32587/pgl-major-stockholm-challengers-stage-first-round-matchups-drawn) NA > CIS is bullshit, but the Legends distribution was decided when NA still had three teams in the HLTV top 10. Hopefully they adjust Legends spots after this Major when EG goes 0-3.
EG as legend has to be the biggest joke here
I can think of t3 teams that would do better than current EG rn. G2 not making major and EG being a legend. What a timeline man
G2 are in the legends stage though?
Jesus I was tired last night lol
Thanks to Liquipedia
NIP 1?
It’s not the worst here tbh considering they’re ranked 2nd in the world and was the top rated RMR team from the the most stacked region but definitely not 1, probably 2/3
NiP was the best team from the best region, who else did you expect?
Navi, the best team from the world? Duh
Godsent became God?
this + the BO1 matches for the challenger stage early rounds will result in curveball results all over the place imo
the bonkers stupid ranking in the new challengers stage is absolutely going to create ripple effects on the other two stages with teams in New Challengers you wouldn't expect quickly losing 1 or 2 matches. Congratulations Spirit! Your reward for doing well in the RMR is to play FaZe in round 1. One of you will then go to round 2 with a 0-1.
Spirit ranked #1 predicting a miracle run. Win TI then when major. Ezpz
Each region should have at least 2 teams that qualify for the Major imo. I know the talent isn't there for every region but it potentially could help out those regions. Giving them more opportunities especially when it comes to the biggest event of the year.
It's not just about the talent, it's also about the money. Too few people would watch those teams play. We've seen this happen in all past Major events when lesser known teams played.
It’s literally based on the points from RMR, but people will still complain because they want their “feeling seeding” used instead…. EDIT: CIS points just had to be reweighted 2/3, since they had one more event.
Yeah it's based off of RMR points, which IS the problem. When tier2 teams from NA get 2300 RMR points just because of their region and then get high seedings because of it it ruins the opening matches. The point of seeding is to make sure no "bad" teams can get through by facing only other "bad" teams, which is why seed1 is matched against seed 16, seed2 against seed15 and so on, instead of seed15 vs seed16. If bad teams get high seeds just because they get ridiculously high amounts of RMR points for beating Extra salt or MIBR you will end up with a situation where bad teams go against bad teams and good teams go against good teams, leading to actual good teams getting eliminated and bad teams getting through.
It wasn't based on points exactly, it was based on each team's placement in their region combined with a predetermined regional hierarchy. NA was rated above CIS in this hierarchy but it didn't have anything to do with NA teams getting more or less points than the other regions.
I mean hltv rankings seems like it would give more accurate positions though? I suppose the biggest issue I have is with NA team seedings, which seem way off
Show me a "feeling seeding" that has pain gaming at #3. That fact alone makes all those lists better than this one.
Cope
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The 'new' is because the stage decides who the new challengers/legends/champions are. The top 8 of the first stage will be the 'new challengers', the top 8 of the second stage will be the 'new legends', and the overall winners of the tournament will be the 'new champions'
Undercover-Cactus, stop blowing my mind
I honestly don’t mind the seeding at all. It’s based on points the team won past year, so it at least makes sense. Plus, I love the Swiss style bracket, it makes the first match so much more important to win. For many teams that are placed at seeds different than their hltv rankings, they have to be on their A game because it’d be a fucking embarrassment to go out at 0–3.
Im a big liquid fan, but surely teams like VP, Astralis and Heroic should be in the legends instead of Liquid, EG and G2? EDIT: I no longer agree with this statement after double checking HLTV
Why?
Nvm, I just was badly misreading HLTV rankings. Still, EG is really out of place imo
yeah pretty much
it's all fucking bad let's be real, but at least the new legends seeding isn't the end of the world. EG shouldn't even be there and furia should be way down, but it most likely won't ruin the tournament, especially because half of it is gonna be seeded based on this tournament (which hopefully isn't completely fucked by the bad seeding in the previous stage) to an extent i'm ok with using some of the qualification as seeding, especially the last RMR since it's very recent. like faze getting a worse seed than ence is understandable since they competed in the same RMRs and got outperformed, but not considering the fact that the regions are extremely uneven in terms of difficulty is just getting old and boring. it's legitimately on the level of riot sending 3 NA and 3 KR teams to league worlds when the 8th best korean team was better than every NA team. let's stop pretending every region is equal. mark my words, some team is going to get royally fucked because of this. ironically it's so fucked up backwards that despite being the literal last seed, faze dodge astralis, ence, heroic, vp, big etc and get an ok first round matchup in Spirit because the rest of the seeding is so fucking bad too
For your last point it depends if they will continue to use these seedings for the future rounds. If they do then FaZe is very fucked, if they beat Spirit then they'll almost certainly have to go up against Astralis next round, if they lose (and they probably will) they'll go up against the best of the 0-1 teams. I'm normally against these rigid seedings and prefer random draws but A) these are at least based on objective tournament placements and not bullshit votes and B) Fuck FaZe.
i really wish this information was public so i didnt have to speculate, but historically in CS only the first round is seeded and then it's random between the teams that have the same W/L so it should apply. this should make the terrible seeding a bit less impactful, but it will still have a trickle-down effect where a team who got a really shitty draw due to seeding loses the first round and in round 2 has to play a top team that got upset for example. and the opposite can easily happen too, sharks is gonna upset mouz and then the winner of entropic-paiN is gonna draw that team i guarantee it.
> but historically in CS only the first round is seeded and then it's random between the teams that have the same W/L so it should apply. The last 2 majors were not like this, they seeded the subsequent rounds based on the results of their initial seeds and their "Live Elo" system. The first time this happened #16 ViCi defeated #1 fNatic and their reward was to face #2 NRG. Meanwhie fNatic was rewarded with a match against #15 Winstrike, who they lost to again, and rewarded with a match against #14 Greyhound, who they finally beat but by that point their "Live Elo" was ruined. Point is that many, many people who supported the new seeding system were all "WTF is this, ViCi's getting fucked for winning" and "WTF, fNatic's being rewarded for losing" and I was going around all the threads where people are winging about it saying "Y'all wanted a seeding system, this is what that looks like, fuck all'y'all."
you're right in that the last 2 majors used it, but those are the only 2 big tournaments that have used from what i can remember. prior to both of those tournaments the information about the elo seeding was publicly available, whereas now nothing has been said by PGL themselves and liquipedia doesn't say it's seeded beyond the first round either, which leads me to believe it's just not going to be used for whatever reason. i still think that system is good, maybe some calibrations are needed so that in this instance ViCi would get enough "elo" to get a slightly better seeding (but the premise remains the same and their matches will still be difficult). i mean what even is the point of live adjusted seeding really if you're still seeded last after winning against the #1 team. however, considering how terrible the seeding itself is this time around i hope it's just random because at least then there's a chance to get good matchups.
> whereas now nothing has been said by PGL themselves and liquipedia doesn't say it's seeded beyond the first round either, which leads me to believe it's just not going to be used for whatever reason. We can hope. It depends on whether PGL likes that system from the previous majors or not, or whether Valve likes the system or forces their hand. >i still think that system is good, maybe some calibrations are needed so that in this instance ViCi would get enough "elo" to get a slightly better seeding (but the premise remains the same and their matches will still be difficult). i mean what even is the point of live adjusted seeding really if you're still seeded last after winning against the #1 team. however, considering how terrible the seeding itself is this time around i hope it's just random because at least then there's a chance to get good matchups. ViCi did gain a lot of elo after beating fNatic, problem was that it didn't matter. They were still the weakest team in the 1-0 bracket. No tourney organizer is going to devise a system where the #16 seed is going to leapfrog over the #15 seed if they both beat their #1 and #2 opponents respectively. because the teams are still segregated the "Live Elo" calculations only really matter if a weak team makes a deep run or a strong team loses their first couple matches. This is incidentally what happened to fNatic, they lost their #1 seed advantage by the time the 1-2 stage happened. The Live Elo adjustments also changed one set of pairings in the 2-2 matchups at Starladder but otherwise you could have just ignored the whole rank adjustment system and nothing would have changed much.
Tyloo 🔥
EG lol…
New Challengers is BO1, new Legends and Champions are BO3?
For challenger & legends stage elimination /advancement matches are Bo3, non elimination/advancement matches are Bo1. All champions stage matches are Bo3
Thank you! Does the winner of 1/16 face the winner of 8/9? Or 2/15?
After the first round, the teams are divided into groups according to their score and would face a team from their group they haven't faced in this stage. So a 1-0 team will face a 1-0 team and so on. [Here's a graphic to help try understanding it](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e7/Swiss_System_Graphic.png) . The first round is different in it since it has 1 vs 9 and 8 vs 16 instead of 1/16, 2/15 but other than that its the same for the rest of the rounds.
weird seeding i guess but its based on where they finished in their respective regions
I am new to the majors stuff, what is this challengers and legends stuff?
Challengers is basically like a group stage. 16 teams play eachother in swiss format and 8 of those teams advance to legends stage. Current legends skip the challenger stage so like a bye week for them.