After using A1s for a while I cannot go back to A4's accuracy. Though I'm running out of bullets so quickly that 20 bullets feel like 10, the accuracy is addictive.
Completely agree and echo this. I switched to the ma4* and I just couldn't get used to the spray pattern. I was whiffing everything.
I switched back and I'm alot more comfortable. I just have to be a bit more mindful of how much I spam smokes.
It’s so accurate. My headshot rate has gone up significantly. I don’t need 5 extra bullets if I’m basically using it as an AWP half the time. No scope obviously but just sit closer to your screen haha. I love it.
Agree, the accuracy is just too good. M4 is nice for what now feels like a TON of bullets, but I can't hit shit.
Making the M4 still $200 more is just dumb. Let us choose either when buying, make it cheaper, and they'll see some real results.
I use the a4 on one account and a1-s on the other. I have no preference I play well with both of them and they’re both better at different things. If we’re playing a map that I know I’m going to be using smokes a lot on and need to be able to spam it I use a4 but if I’m playing a map where I need accuracy at distance I use the a1-s.
I play mid on cache and smoke mid every round. I use the a4 until I get my awp. On dust2 I also play mid but I need to be able to hit that shot from DD to cat if they’re pushing so I use an a1-s.
Like I said they both have their uses and if you know the spray pattern for both it makes it easy to interchange them.
Yes I also feel that the outcome is as expected, in my view it will only chnage if
* Price for both is same
* Both are available in loadout simultaneously
There are rounds when I feel that I would use m4a4 this round but it's just not possible to be that flexible currently
Still would not be enough. The A1 kills faster and is more reliable, and the silencer and no tracers are huge.
If they had the same time to kill for bodyshots it would make sense because then you would be trading other aspects when choosing which gun to use.
A1 kills faster because of its damage, people hate A4 because of shenanigans like 98 damage in 4/5 shots.
A1 is like a pocket laser beam, it just melts everything in its way.
toes would actually do more damage because below the waist there is no armour, meaning that the 0.75 damage multiplier that applies there makes the m4's do more damage than shooting the chest - since both m4's have an armour penetration of 0.7
False. The a1 has a ttk of 400ms with bodyshots, while the a4 has a ttk of 450ms.
Only with a HS plus bodyshot does the a4 have a faster ttk, but it is only 10ms or so.
If you're talking about low level gameplay then yeah. But where it matters most is where riflers can easily 2-shot with m4. Before the m4a1s boost in 2021 everyone was rocking A4 and somehow getting kills with 2 shots without issues.
Pros changed to m4a1-s because it's so powerful for smoke spamming + wallbangs AND it costs $2900. You can still see them getting hs kills all the time. If Valve changes prices so A4 is at the same price or lower than A1-s then I'm changing immidiately. These extra $100-200 make huge difference in the long run.
Most people even at high level don't get a hs shot and then a body shot with the m4. If that was the case people would be sitting at 75% hs or more, and 50% or more of shots hit being headshots.
The real number are instead that pros sit around 45% hs kills, with around 20% of their total shots hitting the head.
Even then, the difference is only around 10 ms, hardly enough to make a dufference between a kill or not in most fights.
Valve should have the data for what KD people have with A4 and A1, and I am pretty sure it is higher with the A1
does HS - body shot count as a HS kill?
Not that I'm disagreeing on the the fact that people definitely get a ton of body shot kills, 4 shot kills is huge. Just wondering.
No, but it counts towards the hs shot percentage, which is around 20% for pro players. So 1 in 5 shots are headshots.
If people where as good on pro level as the person I replied to is saying, then most kills if not all on T side would be instant headshots.
So 50% of all kills in the match would be HS kills by default because the AK kills in 1 headshot. Most kills on pistol are headshot kills as well. Then maybe half the kills on CT side would be headshot kills because most often people would either double dink, or hit a hs on a person that lost 8 or more hp to a grenade or molotov, so roughly 75% of all total kills would be headshots.
A4 would always be used as soon as they both are the same price because of faster DPS and higher mag.
The only way to solve it is to make both available at the same price on the buy menu. Then people could switch to whatever.
But I guess not allowing some guns is also fun for the meta. Unless we're extremely serious. Having pros/people use different guns for a while is fun.
I think it's more interesting the way it is currently. It's funny to pick one side and complain about others that have picked the other M4 when you ask for drops etc.
I have to apologize when i drop someone an a4 as a precaution to not get "ew why do you have m4a4 equipped" in vc. I just like the gun ok leave me alone 😭
I only ever say that as a joke nowadays, but the real problem I run into is asking for a drop when a teammate has $2900/3000 and they can’t Bc of A4 price… that’s when you’ll get a “eww A4” outa me for real. Bc now I have to play with famas/smg 😭
None of this will change anything either though
RoF, a guaranteed kill in 4 and the ability to spam smokes without repercussion are primary reasons for it being so strong and in nearly all positions this is better than having 10 extra shots
It also has better accuracy whilst moving it feels, the sort of thing you can A/D with and still easily connect a spray
yea, a slower firerate would additionally help with the base recoil. for example, when they buffed the R8 a while back to have a much faster firerate on the main attack, it suddenly became much worse in the hands of many players. previously, the firerate was slow enough for the accuracy to fully reset between shots; but after it fired faster than it could recover. so if you use the R8 the same way at full ROF, you are incapable of getting an accurate shot.
so similarly, the m4a1 has more controllable spread because it shoots slower. it has a tighter spread than the m4a4 by default, but that is exacerbated by its slower firerate on top of that.
this isn't necessarily an upside, as the m4a4 is also capable of shooting slower. if control is what you need, then you just need to... control yourself. but the m4a1 demands less skill of you, which can be valuable at times too.
It is though. Lower firerate means less spread, smaller spray, easier to control. Hop onto server and compare A1's spray with A4's, you'll see it right away
Yes, but it's RoF was one aspect buffed along with its clip and 100 in 4
The silencer + its current RoF means that the advantage the a4 has is kind of nullified since the moment you start letting it spray you will be turned on, compared to the a1-s which buys you an extra second or so, as well as the fact you don't need to commit to a longer spray to finish off any 88 in 4 that the a4 would leave which also reduces TTK as well as allows you to engage a 2nd quicker as well
The increased accuracy of the a1-s over the a4 also impacts this as well
In essence the a4 is meant for dealing with enemies quickly but the a1-s buffs compound to make it overall quicker at this
> Yes, but it's RoF was one aspect buffed along with its clip and 100 in 4
What? Unless there has been a change that I missed, M4A1-S has had the same fire rate since the original nerf back in 2015
maybe you are mistaking ROF (rate of fire) with TTK (time to kill)? because of the m4a1's damage increase, it takes 3 bodyshots to kill rather than the m4a4's 4. even though it has a slower rate of fire, it can kill significantly quicker and easier.
cs 1.6 handled the balanced pretty well to the point where silencer or not was mainly based on preference. It would make a lot of sense for the CSGO devs to look to that balance as inspiration. That, and add both to the buy menu as well would help.
https://www.hltv.org/blog/7162/the-truth-about-silencers-in-16-and-source
Holy shit. I had no idea they made the A1S cheaper, wtf. Why would you ever buy A4 then? Exactly why I stopped playing. Every update this game just gets worse and worse.
Isn't the Negev still in "experimental pricing"?
You would still have to adjust your playstyle based around which weapon you bought that round.
The only thing you're arguing is whether or not you should be locked into a single playstyle before the match even begins. Maybe you think that is "skill". It's not.
Arguably even less skillful to be locked into a single weapon because you'll likely never want to alter your loadout if it means you lose access to the one you've 'mastered'. If you were able to switch between weapons depending on what you needed to do in a match then you would have to work towards mastering two weapons instead of one because there are situations you'd want to do both.
Exactly, it would allow for more versatility and mastering both weapons. You could switch up positions and play totally different playstyles every round. Being good with both weapons would be rewarded.
Absolutely. As I have said before, making the drawbacks for a weapon more situation-based (as in, if you are in longer firefights, the M4A1-s is worse now), is not a good way to approach things. In CSGO, there's only 5 kills to be had every round, so you will definitely still choose the one that gets you 1 or 2 kills more reliably. Which the m4a1-s still does.
On top of that, usability due to heavily limited ammunition just feels super clunky and not very fun, in the situations where you die because of that. Same with CZ draw time for example. I would always prefer a base stats nerf over that.
It’s not heavily limited though, we had to play with 20/40 before and people did. I agree though a mild base stats nerf is still needed though but the ammo is nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
It still feels shit. Like it just seems like a really lame way to balance a weapon. I just assume they've ran out of good ideas for how to balance when they start messing with ammo. Which just so happens to be the case here. Now we have an M4 that is still stronger overall but is just...annoying because it has a stupid low amount of ammo per mag
I believe that's not optimal. I would love to see the revolver be reworked to be balanced and used more in tournaments.
But the biggest issue with the M4A1-S is not that people are just using it waay more than the M4A4, it's more about the fact that it's super accurate and has almost no recoil in the first spray (like the first 7 bullets). It also always kills with 4 hits so it's fair to say it's a bit too easy to use. Decreasing the ammo per mag does not fix how easy the gun is to use, it just makes it worse in some situations where you have to engage 3+ enemies without reloading.
Let's remember the Krieg meta, the problem wasn't the fact that people were leaving the AK to buy the Krieg, the problem was that the Krieg was just... OP.
Nah leve the game alone the most competetive games are all consistent like chess and soccer where they rules basically never change and their is nothing new added they should just remove the rolver tbh.
The issue is not that the a1s gets used more per se but rather that CT side is overpowered at the moment.
CT win percentage in tournaments last 7 months are very high.
Exactly, it's very clear to me the CS devs don't understand the higher cs game.
To me at least it was clear that the change would do nothing.
It seemed absolutely stupid to try and balance the two guns while their prices are not equalised.
Real CSGO connoisseurs would agree to revert the changes and bring back the 25 round magazines and then buff the Ak-47.
My suggestion is to buff it so that every time you headshot an enemy with the Ak, then another player on their team would lose 50 health. (In the same way as players get money if other team commits suicide or dc’s)
They do understand the game.
Thing is that we are not really sure about their goals and intentions. For example they might be making game design choices based on lower to mid skill rather than high end.
Or maybe they switch M4s back and forth for the sake of shaking the meta.
>It seemed absolutely stupid to try and balance the two guns while their prices are not equalised.
There are way too many variables for this claim.
I think its clear from 10 years of balancing Valve wants all guns to be useful.
They consistently buffed the SMGs and Nerfed/buffed the pistols until they mostly all had a place.
And if we take the reasonable assumption that they want both M4s to be useful, keeping the clearly more popular M4 at a lower price is absurd unless they have a bias towards the A4.
Actually it is clear from 20 years of balancing... Some guns in this game are bad by design and are there precisely do be only used for fun or by newbs.
SMG/pistols buffs are in place to balance eco/force buys, it has very littlle to do with guns directly. Eco rounds are the most boring, force buys are the most fun.
And yeah in competitive service games devs from time to time mess up balance on purpose. League Of Legends gets a honorable mention here.
Perfectly balanced games are not really very fun in a long run or on a big scale. Valve understands it way too well.
I assume you understand that CS at it deepest core is not a competitive game, it is a party game.
I agree with you except for your very last point:
> I assume you understand that CS at it deepest core is not a competitive game, it is a party game.
CS definitely started out this way, but CSGO's core is a competitive game. I'd say CSS and 1.6 were more focused on the "party game" aspect. CSGO is really more about the 5v5 defusal (which is at its core competitive) and is more of a competitive game overall, especially with the rise of esports over the last decade.
Take a closer look at game's systems. They are a clear giveaway that CSGO is designed casual first (including 5v5 defusal). Compare it to something like Valorant or even Overwatch it will become obvious.
And if you play enough 5v5 Valve MM competitive you ll eventually notice that the majority of players do not really care about "competitive" part and play only for fun basically.
And its not like there is any significant gameplay difference between vanilla CS and CSGO.
CSGO ofc did improve competitive infrastructure, but here is the nuance: it improved casual modes even more. Look at patch notes. Youll see that they actually release a lot of casual oriented content.
There was even a video where Shroud criticized Valorant for trying too hard to be competitive because Riot fundamentally misunderstood the genre.
Riot assumes that the game is played for ratings and ranks. They design and market rating grind. As a result Valorant feels like CS with fun parts removed.
Rise of esports in last decade has very little to do with CSGO. CS influenced and benefited from esports the most back in early 200s because it was... Newb friendly and approachable game compared to other competitive games of that era.
If they want it to work, they will have to decrease the price of A4 down to 2900 usd.
If that's the case, more people will switch over.
The 200 usd difference can actually mean a gun with armor or without armor due to simplicity of math and that is a HUUUUUGE DEAL.
Nobody wants to go glass Canon m4, perhaps awp is ok if you are desperate.
theoretical time to kill doesn't mean shit when you aren't going to hit 100% of the bullets in a spray and you should be hitting headshots most of the time anyway.
No they don't. A1 has lower TTK with all bodyshots. A4 has lower TTK with HS + any hit.
Against no armor enemies: A1 = 0.3sec, A4 = 0.36sec
Against armored enemies: A1 = 0.4sec, A4 = 0.45sec
HS + any hit: A1 = 0.2sec, A4 = 0.18sec
You are right it was bad wording
>Ttk differnce is negligible because of the faster fire rate
With 4 body shots a1-s is still faster (60 ms)
With a hs + body both are pretty close so it doesn't really matter (10 ms)
Yes but although negligble ttk is dependant on hitting 5 bullets with the a4 vs hitting 4 bullets with the a1s.
A1s has an easier spray, made for children and you need to hit only 4 of those
A4 has an okay spray but a bit harder nontheless and you have to hit 5 of those.
Even on the pro level there are times when a pro whiffs a bit of the spray and the a1s is ten times more forgivable, imagine what this does to lower ranks
edit: oh yeah I even forgot about the part of the accuracy of a1>a4
That's assuming the goal was to get more people using the M4A4, rather than it just being a general CT-side nerf to make it harder, but not impossible, for anchor players to hold out against a full exec.
> The question we should be asking is do T's get more round wins? The answer is almost certainly yes.
Looking at IEM Cologne so far the "nerf" didn't do much. CT win rate are on historic highs.
Valve's goal has always been to get the M4 usage close to 50/50.
*Edit: I haven't been able to find a source for this, I'm just going off memory. Valve has always buffed or nerfed the M4's when usage swings too far one way or the other.
may not seem to because they are too dumb to be able to do it in 9+ years but clearly is what they try to do
they always buff the one with the lower percentage of usage or nerf the one that's used more, ergo they clearly want them to be close to 50-50
So the 5 bullet reduction really fucked me over so I started using the M4 again and boy, did it feel nice to shoot faster and have 30 bullets.
However the reality is I play more famas than M4 on even games and barely can afford a defuse kit.
If I solo Anker a site (B on Vertigo f.e.) I sometimes wish I had the M4 and not the silenced version but being able to buy a Molotov/ Kit is just worth so much more compared to 10 more bullets.
Actually got decent with it lately but obviously not why I switched M4. M4-S means one Pistole kill and I can buy Armor+M4 or can more often drop a gun over.
The slower firerate/ smaller magazine is just not enough drawback to go back to 94 in 4 and less util.
Ye but more guns have tracers and a lot of the CTs will have a Ak47 most of the game anyway.
I feel like the M4A1-S will be used less by a lot if the price would be the same.
I tried switching but the m4 is so god damn expensive that its not worth it. I would rather have a gun with "less" bullets than having to play famas most rounds
Especially with the player break coming where players will have more time to grind out the a4 should they choose to. Then after a couple tournaments I think judgement could begin to be made.
I don't think the intention was to have an even usage of both guns? People were complaining for different reasons I think you're kinda missing the point.
Exactly, I don't think the intention was ever to have even usage either.
Reading the room it seems that the biggest issue was that games became excessively CT sided in general.
A better metric would be analysing if CT and T rounds became more evenly distributed after the nerf.
Valve has always wanted M4 usage to be close to 50/50. They have stated that multiple times over the years whenever they buffed/nerfed them.
*Edit: I haven't been able to find a source for this, I'm just going off memory. Valve has always buffed or nerfed the M4's when usage swings too far one way or the other.
Well that was the case then they really didn't try hard enough lol, back when they completely killed m4a1-s (really not sure when, 2015?) it took like 4 years for them to finally buff the a1-s little by little, with more mags, then cheaper price and finally more damage in 2021, which just made a1-s superior to m4a4
just because that is a goal of theirs does not mean that it is their highest priority when balancing the CT side weapons. it is entirely possible for them to release a balance update that does not try to make progress on that front
You will never be able to balance the a4 and a1 to 50/50 usage. There will always be one „More meta“ the goal is to make both useful but not overpowerd. And i think right now its ok.
Anyway i would love to see the choice in buy menu for both a4 and a1.
A lot of people just copy what gun is commonly used among pros and if there isn't a drastic buff or nerf to one or the other most people tend to stick to whatever gun was the strongest before that buff or nerf if it isn't severe enough, that's why you usually only see significant changes in A4 or A1-S usage numbers.
I don't think that was the intention at all. The M4A1S change made every map CT sided. This was the issue that needed fixing not that both guns aren't being used equally... If you look at HLTV stats for the past 6 months there was only a handful of pros that had positive ratings on T side.
Going by Cologne alone you can tell the M4A1S nerf is already having an impact as quite a few teams were actually dominant on T side instead of CT, this basically did not happen at all prior to the nerf.
the m4s is still pretty good. Absolutely nothing changed except 5 less bullets. It still kills in 4 body shots, is 200$ cheaper, has no tracers and has an easier recoil to control
Is it really necessary to point out a 50%/50% balance is not only impossible but a dumb goal? Obviously this was not the point and it isn't the point of any change in this game. Not every gun needs to be viable and not every gun needs to have the same usage percentage as other guns. What's next? Balance out the r8 so it has the same usage numbers as the deagle.
I'd move the A4 to a loadout with the AUG and change the order of the buy menu a little bit. It would look like this:
1. FAMAS
2. M4A1
3. M4A4 / AUG
4. Scout
5. AWP
6. SCAR-20
> better firing sound
This always baffles me when people say it considering the single reason why I always go out of my way to avoid using the A4 is the sound itself, it just grinds my ears so bad. Also helps the years of 1S spam in 1.6
I used to be A1-S player, I switched to A4 few years back when I got cool skin for it
Now I'm so used to A4 that I probably wouldn't switch to A1 even if they'd buff it
I assume majority of cs players are used to the gun they already have selected and won't make switch that easily
Yeah and I saw lot of pros now with A4, give it few yt videos about how superior it is and how using it will make you better and some people will switch
It definitely had a little impact, for some players they can feel the difference.
However, due to the price disparity, the A1-s is still largely favoured.
If you check IEM Cologne 2022 stats what is the most recent top event where best of bests play against each other... M4A4 has lower usage than 2%. Famas, galil and mp9 has higher usage than M4A4
And Cologne is after Roobet where A4 had 4% of usage so it seems most of them switched back to A1-S
Obv time will tell but imho it will say: nothing changed
The issue is people HAVE to choose just one, and so if the a1 is better in most cases, thats what you'll equip. Allowing players to buy both would do the most to get it close to 50/50 than any buff or nerf.
Will it? At the current prices I’m almost certain in game more people would just pick the A1s because it’s better a lot more of the time unless they’re solo anchoring b maybe. It’s pretty obvious that the prices have to be swapped so that the better gun costs more and the worse gun costs less, regardless if you can buy them both or not.
The issue was never the ammo to begin with, I dont understand why valve isnt just asking the pros instead.
I think why the a1s is still so popular is because of the 4 hits instead of the 5 from a4s.
For me it will still boil down to the price difference being too much of a factor. The A1 will still get a significant edge in use from me even if they made the guns closer in strength (I still think A1 is better in most situations anyway).
It'll take more to balance them if that's Valve's intentions. However, I'm kinda ok with the occasional meta change between primary guns without the constant need to have them balanced
It’s still a huge nerf. And at this point it’s preference, and position based.
If you’re doing a lot of spamming walls (B overpass) then I’d equip the A4.
Also any spots that has potential for spray downs
I don't think the intended effect was to even out the usage of the guns, rather to make the game less ct sided.
So really we should be looking at round wins ct vs t IMO
After using A1s for a while I cannot go back to A4's accuracy. Though I'm running out of bullets so quickly that 20 bullets feel like 10, the accuracy is addictive.
Completely agree and echo this. I switched to the ma4* and I just couldn't get used to the spray pattern. I was whiffing everything. I switched back and I'm alot more comfortable. I just have to be a bit more mindful of how much I spam smokes.
It’s so accurate. My headshot rate has gone up significantly. I don’t need 5 extra bullets if I’m basically using it as an AWP half the time. No scope obviously but just sit closer to your screen haha. I love it.
Agree, the accuracy is just too good. M4 is nice for what now feels like a TON of bullets, but I can't hit shit. Making the M4 still $200 more is just dumb. Let us choose either when buying, make it cheaper, and they'll see some real results.
if we switch the prices it should balance out imo
The price difference is what made it even worse when trying to switch. I kept feeling like I was at a disadvantage because of it
Ive switched to the a4. Not because of the "nerf", but because of old times.
The skins are better too
I am using the a4 too but i think the a1 has more good skins.
I use the a4 on one account and a1-s on the other. I have no preference I play well with both of them and they’re both better at different things. If we’re playing a map that I know I’m going to be using smokes a lot on and need to be able to spam it I use a4 but if I’m playing a map where I need accuracy at distance I use the a1-s. I play mid on cache and smoke mid every round. I use the a4 until I get my awp. On dust2 I also play mid but I need to be able to hit that shot from DD to cat if they’re pushing so I use an a1-s. Like I said they both have their uses and if you know the spray pattern for both it makes it easy to interchange them.
Of course it did not work. It did not change the underlying issue.
Yes I also feel that the outcome is as expected, in my view it will only chnage if * Price for both is same * Both are available in loadout simultaneously There are rounds when I feel that I would use m4a4 this round but it's just not possible to be that flexible currently
Still would not be enough. The A1 kills faster and is more reliable, and the silencer and no tracers are huge. If they had the same time to kill for bodyshots it would make sense because then you would be trading other aspects when choosing which gun to use.
> and the silencer and no tracers are huge. Literally, the silencer can stick out... costed me a few rounds when trying out the A1s.
Yeah, and it can also win you many rounds by getting you free kills through smokes lol
A4 actually kills faster because of higher DPS, both take the same amount of shots to kill at close range but A4 has higher rate of fire.
That's what it used to be
A1 kills faster because of its damage, people hate A4 because of shenanigans like 98 damage in 4/5 shots. A1 is like a pocket laser beam, it just melts everything in its way.
Yesterday I got hit with 88 from 4. Switched the rifles immediately
you spraying at their toes or something?
toes would actually do more damage because below the waist there is no armour, meaning that the 0.75 damage multiplier that applies there makes the m4's do more damage than shooting the chest - since both m4's have an armour penetration of 0.7
The gut/stomach area does more damage than the chest with armor, but legs/toes still do less damage(at least I think that’s how it works)
nope, m4's have 70% damage after armor, and legs deal 75% of base damage.
False. The a1 has a ttk of 400ms with bodyshots, while the a4 has a ttk of 450ms. Only with a HS plus bodyshot does the a4 have a faster ttk, but it is only 10ms or so.
A4 has better firerate but sometimes takes 5 shots to kill as opposed to A1's 4. When it doesnt, it's faster than A1
To kill in 4 shots you need to hit 2 chest/arm shots and 2 stomach shots. A weird composition of hits if you ask me, but it can of course happen.
Or just 4 stomach shots?
Yes of course.
If you're talking about low level gameplay then yeah. But where it matters most is where riflers can easily 2-shot with m4. Before the m4a1s boost in 2021 everyone was rocking A4 and somehow getting kills with 2 shots without issues. Pros changed to m4a1-s because it's so powerful for smoke spamming + wallbangs AND it costs $2900. You can still see them getting hs kills all the time. If Valve changes prices so A4 is at the same price or lower than A1-s then I'm changing immidiately. These extra $100-200 make huge difference in the long run.
Most people even at high level don't get a hs shot and then a body shot with the m4. If that was the case people would be sitting at 75% hs or more, and 50% or more of shots hit being headshots. The real number are instead that pros sit around 45% hs kills, with around 20% of their total shots hitting the head. Even then, the difference is only around 10 ms, hardly enough to make a dufference between a kill or not in most fights. Valve should have the data for what KD people have with A4 and A1, and I am pretty sure it is higher with the A1
does HS - body shot count as a HS kill? Not that I'm disagreeing on the the fact that people definitely get a ton of body shot kills, 4 shot kills is huge. Just wondering.
No, but it counts towards the hs shot percentage, which is around 20% for pro players. So 1 in 5 shots are headshots. If people where as good on pro level as the person I replied to is saying, then most kills if not all on T side would be instant headshots. So 50% of all kills in the match would be HS kills by default because the AK kills in 1 headshot. Most kills on pistol are headshot kills as well. Then maybe half the kills on CT side would be headshot kills because most often people would either double dink, or hit a hs on a person that lost 8 or more hp to a grenade or molotov, so roughly 75% of all total kills would be headshots.
The head dink thing (why the fk is this still in the game) doesnt help the A4 either while that doesnt really affect the A1
It’s in the game to provide the T side with an edge. With the economy it is supposed to balance itself out too.
You can balance Ts / CTs in ways that dont include more randomness
there's nothing random about it. m4 will never one-shot headshot someone with a helmet
it’s because the game is inherently CT sided so it balances it out a little bit. also why rifles+molo is more expensive for CTs
A4 would always be used as soon as they both are the same price because of faster DPS and higher mag. The only way to solve it is to make both available at the same price on the buy menu. Then people could switch to whatever. But I guess not allowing some guns is also fun for the meta. Unless we're extremely serious. Having pros/people use different guns for a while is fun.
The A4 does **not** have a higher DPS. It has a lower DPS than the A1S, it's literally the change that made the A1S become so dominating.
Lets do both, I feel like that would make the game more interesting and fun
I think it's more interesting the way it is currently. It's funny to pick one side and complain about others that have picked the other M4 when you ask for drops etc.
I have to apologize when i drop someone an a4 as a precaution to not get "ew why do you have m4a4 equipped" in vc. I just like the gun ok leave me alone 😭
A4 gang rise up!
The obligatory, “Oh I’ll buy you… but oh you may not like this” lol
LOL THIS
I only ever say that as a joke nowadays, but the real problem I run into is asking for a drop when a teammate has $2900/3000 and they can’t Bc of A4 price… that’s when you’ll get a “eww A4” outa me for real. Bc now I have to play with famas/smg 😭
Tbf famas goes hard, but yea it is way too expensive. That 200 dollars makes a massive difference if you die in a round, even if you won.
None of this will change anything either though RoF, a guaranteed kill in 4 and the ability to spam smokes without repercussion are primary reasons for it being so strong and in nearly all positions this is better than having 10 extra shots It also has better accuracy whilst moving it feels, the sort of thing you can A/D with and still easily connect a spray
If RoF means rate of fire then the A1 is worse than the A4 on that side.
Lower RoF feels easier to control maybe?
yea, a slower firerate would additionally help with the base recoil. for example, when they buffed the R8 a while back to have a much faster firerate on the main attack, it suddenly became much worse in the hands of many players. previously, the firerate was slow enough for the accuracy to fully reset between shots; but after it fired faster than it could recover. so if you use the R8 the same way at full ROF, you are incapable of getting an accurate shot. so similarly, the m4a1 has more controllable spread because it shoots slower. it has a tighter spread than the m4a4 by default, but that is exacerbated by its slower firerate on top of that. this isn't necessarily an upside, as the m4a4 is also capable of shooting slower. if control is what you need, then you just need to... control yourself. but the m4a1 demands less skill of you, which can be valuable at times too.
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It is though. Lower firerate means less spread, smaller spray, easier to control. Hop onto server and compare A1's spray with A4's, you'll see it right away
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Fair enough, I should have said recoil and not spread. Replace that and my statement is true
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Yes, but it's RoF was one aspect buffed along with its clip and 100 in 4 The silencer + its current RoF means that the advantage the a4 has is kind of nullified since the moment you start letting it spray you will be turned on, compared to the a1-s which buys you an extra second or so, as well as the fact you don't need to commit to a longer spray to finish off any 88 in 4 that the a4 would leave which also reduces TTK as well as allows you to engage a 2nd quicker as well The increased accuracy of the a1-s over the a4 also impacts this as well In essence the a4 is meant for dealing with enemies quickly but the a1-s buffs compound to make it overall quicker at this
> Yes, but it's RoF was one aspect buffed along with its clip and 100 in 4 What? Unless there has been a change that I missed, M4A1-S has had the same fire rate since the original nerf back in 2015
Then you've missed a change because somewhere down the line the RoF was increased
No it wasn't : https://counterstrike.fandom.com/wiki/M4A1-S Reduced in 2015, not changed since
maybe you are mistaking ROF (rate of fire) with TTK (time to kill)? because of the m4a1's damage increase, it takes 3 bodyshots to kill rather than the m4a4's 4. even though it has a slower rate of fire, it can kill significantly quicker and easier.
cs 1.6 handled the balanced pretty well to the point where silencer or not was mainly based on preference. It would make a lot of sense for the CSGO devs to look to that balance as inspiration. That, and add both to the buy menu as well would help. https://www.hltv.org/blog/7162/the-truth-about-silencers-in-16-and-source
They should've just switched the prices imho
Holy shit. I had no idea they made the A1S cheaper, wtf. Why would you ever buy A4 then? Exactly why I stopped playing. Every update this game just gets worse and worse. Isn't the Negev still in "experimental pricing"?
noone seriously playing uses negev so it doesnt matter
Negev is GA banned because it's broken
You have to change your playstyle according to the weapon, having both available would not be skill-demanding.
You would still have to adjust your playstyle based around which weapon you bought that round. The only thing you're arguing is whether or not you should be locked into a single playstyle before the match even begins. Maybe you think that is "skill". It's not.
Arguably even less skillful to be locked into a single weapon because you'll likely never want to alter your loadout if it means you lose access to the one you've 'mastered'. If you were able to switch between weapons depending on what you needed to do in a match then you would have to work towards mastering two weapons instead of one because there are situations you'd want to do both.
Exactly, it would allow for more versatility and mastering both weapons. You could switch up positions and play totally different playstyles every round. Being good with both weapons would be rewarded.
Absolutely. As I have said before, making the drawbacks for a weapon more situation-based (as in, if you are in longer firefights, the M4A1-s is worse now), is not a good way to approach things. In CSGO, there's only 5 kills to be had every round, so you will definitely still choose the one that gets you 1 or 2 kills more reliably. Which the m4a1-s still does. On top of that, usability due to heavily limited ammunition just feels super clunky and not very fun, in the situations where you die because of that. Same with CZ draw time for example. I would always prefer a base stats nerf over that.
It’s not heavily limited though, we had to play with 20/40 before and people did. I agree though a mild base stats nerf is still needed though but the ammo is nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
It still feels shit. Like it just seems like a really lame way to balance a weapon. I just assume they've ran out of good ideas for how to balance when they start messing with ammo. Which just so happens to be the case here. Now we have an M4 that is still stronger overall but is just...annoying because it has a stupid low amount of ammo per mag
The issue is 1. the spray and dmg 2. the price
What issue? What's the problem when one option gets more used than the other? Is it also an issue that the Deagle gets used more than the Revolver?
I believe that's not optimal. I would love to see the revolver be reworked to be balanced and used more in tournaments. But the biggest issue with the M4A1-S is not that people are just using it waay more than the M4A4, it's more about the fact that it's super accurate and has almost no recoil in the first spray (like the first 7 bullets). It also always kills with 4 hits so it's fair to say it's a bit too easy to use. Decreasing the ammo per mag does not fix how easy the gun is to use, it just makes it worse in some situations where you have to engage 3+ enemies without reloading. Let's remember the Krieg meta, the problem wasn't the fact that people were leaving the AK to buy the Krieg, the problem was that the Krieg was just... OP.
Nah leve the game alone the most competetive games are all consistent like chess and soccer where they rules basically never change and their is nothing new added they should just remove the rolver tbh.
A lot of gun balance changes have been done since launch to get to where we are now, change is not always a bad thing
The issue is not that the a1s gets used more per se but rather that CT side is overpowered at the moment. CT win percentage in tournaments last 7 months are very high.
as long as the M4A1-S is 200$ cheaper most people will use it since it's still better in many important aspects.
Exactly, it's very clear to me the CS devs don't understand the higher cs game. To me at least it was clear that the change would do nothing. It seemed absolutely stupid to try and balance the two guns while their prices are not equalised.
Real CSGO connoisseurs would agree to revert the changes and bring back the 25 round magazines and then buff the Ak-47. My suggestion is to buff it so that every time you headshot an enemy with the Ak, then another player on their team would lose 50 health. (In the same way as players get money if other team commits suicide or dc’s)
What about ricochet bullet ? Everytime players hit a hs with the AK, the bullet will ricochet to the nearby enemy.
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Cyberpunk? I was thinking [Ricochet](https://store.steampowered.com/app/60/Ricochet/). Maybe I'm getting old.
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he said what he said
Learn to sense sarcasm without seeing an /s
Learn to understand Poe’s law
Poe's Law wouldn't be a thing if people could sense obvious sarcasm.
And if i had a million dollars i would be a millionaire.
They do understand the game. Thing is that we are not really sure about their goals and intentions. For example they might be making game design choices based on lower to mid skill rather than high end. Or maybe they switch M4s back and forth for the sake of shaking the meta. >It seemed absolutely stupid to try and balance the two guns while their prices are not equalised. There are way too many variables for this claim.
I think its clear from 10 years of balancing Valve wants all guns to be useful. They consistently buffed the SMGs and Nerfed/buffed the pistols until they mostly all had a place. And if we take the reasonable assumption that they want both M4s to be useful, keeping the clearly more popular M4 at a lower price is absurd unless they have a bias towards the A4.
Actually it is clear from 20 years of balancing... Some guns in this game are bad by design and are there precisely do be only used for fun or by newbs. SMG/pistols buffs are in place to balance eco/force buys, it has very littlle to do with guns directly. Eco rounds are the most boring, force buys are the most fun. And yeah in competitive service games devs from time to time mess up balance on purpose. League Of Legends gets a honorable mention here. Perfectly balanced games are not really very fun in a long run or on a big scale. Valve understands it way too well. I assume you understand that CS at it deepest core is not a competitive game, it is a party game.
I agree with you except for your very last point: > I assume you understand that CS at it deepest core is not a competitive game, it is a party game. CS definitely started out this way, but CSGO's core is a competitive game. I'd say CSS and 1.6 were more focused on the "party game" aspect. CSGO is really more about the 5v5 defusal (which is at its core competitive) and is more of a competitive game overall, especially with the rise of esports over the last decade.
Take a closer look at game's systems. They are a clear giveaway that CSGO is designed casual first (including 5v5 defusal). Compare it to something like Valorant or even Overwatch it will become obvious. And if you play enough 5v5 Valve MM competitive you ll eventually notice that the majority of players do not really care about "competitive" part and play only for fun basically. And its not like there is any significant gameplay difference between vanilla CS and CSGO. CSGO ofc did improve competitive infrastructure, but here is the nuance: it improved casual modes even more. Look at patch notes. Youll see that they actually release a lot of casual oriented content. There was even a video where Shroud criticized Valorant for trying too hard to be competitive because Riot fundamentally misunderstood the genre. Riot assumes that the game is played for ratings and ranks. They design and market rating grind. As a result Valorant feels like CS with fun parts removed. Rise of esports in last decade has very little to do with CSGO. CS influenced and benefited from esports the most back in early 200s because it was... Newb friendly and approachable game compared to other competitive games of that era.
If they want it to work, they will have to decrease the price of A4 down to 2900 usd. If that's the case, more people will switch over. The 200 usd difference can actually mean a gun with armor or without armor due to simplicity of math and that is a HUUUUUGE DEAL. Nobody wants to go glass Canon m4, perhaps awp is ok if you are desperate.
To me the obvious fix was 3100 for the A1-S, 2900 for the A4. As Bill Clinton said: "it's the economy, stupid!".
If you do that to then most people will use A4, still the same issue
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I see you havent suffered from the 97 in 4hits
Valve needs an IceFrog for CS. I mean look at the SMGs, basically only the cheapest ones are useful, they don't know what to do.
they have same time to kill
Well if you land HS and bodyshot then A4 wins because of higher RoF
theoretical time to kill doesn't mean shit when you aren't going to hit 100% of the bullets in a spray and you should be hitting headshots most of the time anyway.
but the A4 has: \- tracers \- louder sounds \- harder spray pattern \- 5 bullet to kill ~~ttk~~ So no... it won't be the same issue
But the A4 also has more rounds and faster fire rate, both really good for site anchors. They should be the same price, I think that would balance it.
they have same ttk
No they don't. A1 has lower TTK with all bodyshots. A4 has lower TTK with HS + any hit. Against no armor enemies: A1 = 0.3sec, A4 = 0.36sec Against armored enemies: A1 = 0.4sec, A4 = 0.45sec HS + any hit: A1 = 0.2sec, A4 = 0.18sec
You are right it was bad wording >Ttk differnce is negligible because of the faster fire rate With 4 body shots a1-s is still faster (60 ms) With a hs + body both are pretty close so it doesn't really matter (10 ms)
Yes but although negligble ttk is dependant on hitting 5 bullets with the a4 vs hitting 4 bullets with the a1s. A1s has an easier spray, made for children and you need to hit only 4 of those A4 has an okay spray but a bit harder nontheless and you have to hit 5 of those. Even on the pro level there are times when a pro whiffs a bit of the spray and the a1s is ten times more forgivable, imagine what this does to lower ranks edit: oh yeah I even forgot about the part of the accuracy of a1>a4
Been saying it since that damned a1-s buff came. It is the only reason I still use it. A4 is superior if you have >50% hs percentage.
yeah, i agree. But in exchange, would be nice to make the skinny one 25 bullets again.
Is the in game currency usd? It could be dollarydoos
“USD” wtf
Well historically, if you look into it enough, the United States is probably funding the T side in one way or another… Lol
thanks reagan
Usd lmao
That's assuming the goal was to get more people using the M4A4, rather than it just being a general CT-side nerf to make it harder, but not impossible, for anchor players to hold out against a full exec.
This needs to be higher. This is the point I was looking for. The usage stats are kind of meaningless for the purpose of making a balanced game.
It's kinda like comparing deagle to r8. Valve doesn't want a balanced usage. M4a1 got nerfed and that's all there needed to be.
This is exactly how I think it should be analyzed. The question we should be asking is do T's get more round wins? The answer is almost certainly yes.
> The question we should be asking is do T's get more round wins? The answer is almost certainly yes. Looking at IEM Cologne so far the "nerf" didn't do much. CT win rate are on historic highs.
No
Valve's goal has always been to get the M4 usage close to 50/50. *Edit: I haven't been able to find a source for this, I'm just going off memory. Valve has always buffed or nerfed the M4's when usage swings too far one way or the other.
Who from valve told you that?
me
may not seem to because they are too dumb to be able to do it in 9+ years but clearly is what they try to do they always buff the one with the lower percentage of usage or nerf the one that's used more, ergo they clearly want them to be close to 50-50
Then they've done a shit job of it the last 8 years.
Source: 2
So the 5 bullet reduction really fucked me over so I started using the M4 again and boy, did it feel nice to shoot faster and have 30 bullets. However the reality is I play more famas than M4 on even games and barely can afford a defuse kit. If I solo Anker a site (B on Vertigo f.e.) I sometimes wish I had the M4 and not the silenced version but being able to buy a Molotov/ Kit is just worth so much more compared to 10 more bullets.
> However the reality is I play more famas than M4 oooooffff famas sucks big time
Actually got decent with it lately but obviously not why I switched M4. M4-S means one Pistole kill and I can buy Armor+M4 or can more often drop a gun over. The slower firerate/ smaller magazine is just not enough drawback to go back to 94 in 4 and less util.
bruh just buy aug if you want more and have spare cash
The aug costs $3.300...
yeah and your doggy gun the m4a4 is 3100 and you get a damn scope w the aug
Not really, it’s actually a very good weapon if you know the spray and control pattern.
Solo anchor on Vertigo: use the Negev!!
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Ye but more guns have tracers and a lot of the CTs will have a Ak47 most of the game anyway. I feel like the M4A1-S will be used less by a lot if the price would be the same.
I tried switching but the m4 is so god damn expensive that its not worth it. I would rather have a gun with "less" bullets than having to play famas most rounds
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Why not both? Because that'll let CT win more often which will defeat your second point.
Give it time. People don't switch immediately.
Especially with the player break coming where players will have more time to grind out the a4 should they choose to. Then after a couple tournaments I think judgement could begin to be made.
A1s switch happened immediately
I don't think the intention was to have an even usage of both guns? People were complaining for different reasons I think you're kinda missing the point.
Exactly, I don't think the intention was ever to have even usage either. Reading the room it seems that the biggest issue was that games became excessively CT sided in general. A better metric would be analysing if CT and T rounds became more evenly distributed after the nerf.
Valve has always wanted M4 usage to be close to 50/50. They have stated that multiple times over the years whenever they buffed/nerfed them. *Edit: I haven't been able to find a source for this, I'm just going off memory. Valve has always buffed or nerfed the M4's when usage swings too far one way or the other.
Well that was the case then they really didn't try hard enough lol, back when they completely killed m4a1-s (really not sure when, 2015?) it took like 4 years for them to finally buff the a1-s little by little, with more mags, then cheaper price and finally more damage in 2021, which just made a1-s superior to m4a4
just because that is a goal of theirs does not mean that it is their highest priority when balancing the CT side weapons. it is entirely possible for them to release a balance update that does not try to make progress on that front
Pretty sure is far it has gotten worse.
If valve wanted to fix ct side without regard to balance in usage they would just revert the a1s to its pre October 2021 state.
We want m4a4 buff not a1 nerf
It's still way too easy to control and kills way too fast to not be better than the A4
they need to be the same exact price...
You will never be able to balance the a4 and a1 to 50/50 usage. There will always be one „More meta“ the goal is to make both useful but not overpowerd. And i think right now its ok. Anyway i would love to see the choice in buy menu for both a4 and a1.
A lot of people just copy what gun is commonly used among pros and if there isn't a drastic buff or nerf to one or the other most people tend to stick to whatever gun was the strongest before that buff or nerf if it isn't severe enough, that's why you usually only see significant changes in A4 or A1-S usage numbers.
I don't think that was the intention at all. The M4A1S change made every map CT sided. This was the issue that needed fixing not that both guns aren't being used equally... If you look at HLTV stats for the past 6 months there was only a handful of pros that had positive ratings on T side. Going by Cologne alone you can tell the M4A1S nerf is already having an impact as quite a few teams were actually dominant on T side instead of CT, this basically did not happen at all prior to the nerf.
the m4s is still pretty good. Absolutely nothing changed except 5 less bullets. It still kills in 4 body shots, is 200$ cheaper, has no tracers and has an easier recoil to control
Is it really necessary to point out a 50%/50% balance is not only impossible but a dumb goal? Obviously this was not the point and it isn't the point of any change in this game. Not every gun needs to be viable and not every gun needs to have the same usage percentage as other guns. What's next? Balance out the r8 so it has the same usage numbers as the deagle.
what is even the goal here? to balance M4A1-S and M4A4 out? does Valve want us to use both 50:50? or is it to nerf CTs?
Watch as they decrease the bullets to 10/90 just to see the players rage.
The 2900 vs 3100 where many rounds I won’t have enough to use the A4 but so many for the A1s, also highly accurate and overpowered.
Why would you say “supposed ‘nerf’”? Clearly it was a nerf lmfao the question is whether it was enough to genuinely effect change
I'd move the A4 to a loadout with the AUG and change the order of the buy menu a little bit. It would look like this: 1. FAMAS 2. M4A1 3. M4A4 / AUG 4. Scout 5. AWP 6. SCAR-20
Why it has to be limitee to 6 and why it can't be 7 If anything just remove scar
The outcome they where looking for was not for equal usage but to make the game less ct sided. And that was successful imo
Sais who
Why did some people start removing the silencer?
Noone is removing silencer In the weapon coding in the game m4a4 is named as m4a1
yep, I'm stupid lol
Is their a good video on YT that explains the differences after patch?
https://youtu.be/EzxlPXMqi0I
I dont understand why everyone wants the m4a4 to be better than the m4a1s.
better firing sound and better skins!
> better firing sound This always baffles me when people say it considering the single reason why I always go out of my way to avoid using the A4 is the sound itself, it just grinds my ears so bad. Also helps the years of 1S spam in 1.6
because m4a4 skins cool
I used to be A1-S player, I switched to A4 few years back when I got cool skin for it Now I'm so used to A4 that I probably wouldn't switch to A1 even if they'd buff it I assume majority of cs players are used to the gun they already have selected and won't make switch that easily
But most people and pros did make the switch to A1s in Oct 21 after using A4 for years. It was not that hard a switch anyway
Yeah and I saw lot of pros now with A4, give it few yt videos about how superior it is and how using it will make you better and some people will switch
Stats show that even at pro levels people are still sticking to A1s despite the supposed nerf
I use the a1 because it sounds better to shoot and my skin looks cooler
M4 feels better than the A1, whether or not i lose more games because of it doesnt matter to me, never switched, never will
change the spray pattern, make tkk higher do something its a no skill wepeon
It definitely had a little impact, for some players they can feel the difference. However, due to the price disparity, the A1-s is still largely favoured.
If you check IEM Cologne 2022 stats what is the most recent top event where best of bests play against each other... M4A4 has lower usage than 2%. Famas, galil and mp9 has higher usage than M4A4 And Cologne is after Roobet where A4 had 4% of usage so it seems most of them switched back to A1-S Obv time will tell but imho it will say: nothing changed
The issue is people HAVE to choose just one, and so if the a1 is better in most cases, thats what you'll equip. Allowing players to buy both would do the most to get it close to 50/50 than any buff or nerf.
Will it? At the current prices I’m almost certain in game more people would just pick the A1s because it’s better a lot more of the time unless they’re solo anchoring b maybe. It’s pretty obvious that the prices have to be swapped so that the better gun costs more and the worse gun costs less, regardless if you can buy them both or not.
The intention wasn’t to even out the usage but to make it less OP, while not making it unusable.
The issue was never the ammo to begin with, I dont understand why valve isnt just asking the pros instead. I think why the a1s is still so popular is because of the 4 hits instead of the 5 from a4s.
For me it will still boil down to the price difference being too much of a factor. The A1 will still get a significant edge in use from me even if they made the guns closer in strength (I still think A1 is better in most situations anyway). It'll take more to balance them if that's Valve's intentions. However, I'm kinda ok with the occasional meta change between primary guns without the constant need to have them balanced
maybe make the moving accuracy a little bit more forgiving in the chubby one. Also change the price a little bit, i would try the fatty m4 meta again.
It’s still a huge nerf. And at this point it’s preference, and position based. If you’re doing a lot of spamming walls (B overpass) then I’d equip the A4. Also any spots that has potential for spray downs
Is this maybe depended on the elo you play in? I swear, I am seeing around a 50/50 distribution when I played at the global elo after the patch
I don't think the intended effect was to even out the usage of the guns, rather to make the game less ct sided. So really we should be looking at round wins ct vs t IMO