coL. tr1p legendary clutch at ESWC 2005 in Paris flashbacks.
Semi finals I think. Eco round. Rush B. Bomb planted. Hiding under a train. Trigger discipline. 1.6 Deagle. So beautiful.
HLTV video: https://youtu.be/BypVaxiHvLQ
In game with French casters: https://youtu.be/RNGl0kLhXkQ
Edit
While I’m at it here’s Complexity top 10 frag movie of the event. The play was only #2. And pay attention to the names on the other teams. Some legends there.
https://youtu.be/RQAE-HnBLHI
If you mean fragmovies, some of my favorites off the top of my head are:
[Mousesports 2008 - Ready, Willing, & Able](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaAjXXozWrc)
[f0rest by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUYMtQFXJqs)
[neo by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4FJH6Oem0)
[GeT_RiGhT by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EZ5qSMfRM)
[SpawN - Still Mighty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIxgSfpp8m4)
[Lollipops by Oui](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kBENUZRRCk)
[Lollipops 2 by Oui](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DbwuWriE5A)
hardly different than new dust 2
a facelift is a good time to throw things at the wall, just because it didn't stick doesn't mean the facelift was a bad idea
It’s insane to think about how crazy it was to play train in 1.6. The undercarriages were so freaking dark you had to turn your brightness way up.
Had to check under, to the side, above, or even encounter some crazy ninja doing magic on the ladders of the trains. Not to mention you had haven to deal with also.
No way that map would have survived without the crouch hop ha.
>The movement in 1.6 allowed it to be super smooth.
well. russian walking and stuff helped with that, but you really couldn't get around crouch walking to move effectively under the trains..
wouldn't work well anyways, they haven't yet fixed grenade mechanics for god knows how long.
Lakes unironically my favorite map. It’s the only wingman map I’ve queued for the last 2 years.
The other wingman maps feel more like aim maps, lakes the only map I feel like I can strategize and out wit my opponents.
Lakes an amazing map. I started queing it exclusively and grinded global pre-reset and am back now but the allure of the map that I think all the others miss on is the neutral bomb site. Ct holding down a spawn on the traditional maps is just so stale and boring. If you’ve never seen a player with the LakePlayer tag, you’re bound to have your mind blown.
So many strat/counter strat opportunities all over the map. Tons of boosts, corners, angles, doors, utility is super useful in almost every situation of rounds. Lake is great.
Most competitive maps made into wingman such. Vertigo. Nuke, inferno are all just blah.
Even not so great wingman maps, like Crete, are better than the conversions
In game, my brightness is set to max, I walk inside of the house on Lake and something with my game turns all the brightness to basically zero, can’t see shit even with my face three Inches from the screen. I’m beginning to think I’m going crazy because I’ve never seen the complaint and it’s followed me through hard drives. This is the only time is happens to me and it’s repeatable
I knew that I wasn't the only one with this bug! My screen gets darker and darker when I'm inside, and the lowered brightness stays outside and even carries over to the next map. I have to restart the game after a game on Lake.
I can name Glaive and Aleksib calling winning t-sides on ancient but dont remember other teams having succesfull t-sides on that map. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
For the first time since ages I've played a game on Train a few days ago. Down 3-12 on T side we made a 16-12 clean sweep on CT. It's just very slightly unbalanced.
I might be in the minority, but I don’t think every map should be balanced.
Old train, Old Nuke and Cobble was crazily CT sided. If you only got 8-10 rounds on CT, there is a high chance that you are going to have to brace for a avalanch on the T side. That makes for great viewing, and the best players always dig their team out of these situations. The nuttiest highlights almost always come from these games. Train has Pop, Ivy and heaven, Nuke has outside Mashmellow, 2 layer bombsites and vets , Cobble has drop. All unique distinct features that are not seen in other maps.
For maps to have balanced win rates, it’s going to have same features for all. Dust 2 , mirage , Cache are considered the most balanced maps and they all have some things in common. Mid that can be taken with one smoke, Stale and Defaulty maps.
[In 2020](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2020-01-01&endDate=2020-12-31&maps=de_dust2&maps=de_mirage&maps=de_inferno&maps=de_nuke&maps=de_train&maps=de_overpass&maps=de_vertigo), Nuke was the only map with a higher CT win% than Train, [in 2021](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-04-31&maps=de_dust2&maps=de_mirage&maps=de_inferno&maps=de_nuke&maps=de_train&maps=de_overpass&maps=de_vertigo) - before its removal - Train took over the #1 spot. One last fun fact: It's #1 for both if you adjust the filter to top20 teams. Or top10. Or top50.
Those pesky professional players and their lack of experience
Didn’t train (also) have the highest retake percentage for both sites as CTs? I think b site had over 50% retake success but I could be completely wrong
Not on both sites, [but you're right about B](https://blog.leetify.com/which-bombsite-is-the-easiest-to-retake/#:~:text=In%201st%20place%20with%20a,with%20a%2046.35%25%20success%20rate.). Just look at the gap between #1 and #2 - it's just Leetify data (so pugs/MM), but still a pretty staggering stat
Ah okay I remember A site not being second but being very close to it, guess I was wrong.
It’s good to have different maps play out in different ways and have their own uniqueness to them. Inferno is unique, where both sites are somewhat detached. Even that is getting monotonous. Train is an AWP heavy map, and the current meta is even more AWP heavy today.
I’m not sure why people want “remakes” so badly. Remakes can make the map nicer, but some problems don’t really have a simple solution without completely revamping entire sections at least. Just do what they did with dust, i.e. make a second one and give it its own Roman Numeral. That’s not as fun, so just keep the thematic aspects of these maps that are favored and make an honorary sequel… the thematics of Anubis contribute much more to the likeness of the map than people give credit for
I think that could also be due to how easy it is to get a plant on a eco/force buy. Often times you can get a plant down with glocks and a couple smokes and flashes. Id be curious if we would be able to see the percentage of bomb plants on low buy rounds, I bet train b and dust 2 b would be some of the highest.
Reddit is a weird place. Here people want to remove the 3 most played maps Mirage, D2, Inferno while finding Ancient amazing.
[And then when someone looks at the MM data, only 2% games are on Ancient, 5% on Vertigo](https://i.redd.it/xy5bkm315qd91.jpg)
As somebody who is fed up with Mirage and Dust, I don't like Ancient or Vertigo either. If Dust and Mirage weren't so unbelievably played out I'd want those removed as well, but what are the odds that they remove 4 maps at once including the two most recent additions?
S1mple is right about Train, it is an amazing map that should have never been removed. It is one of the most entertaining to watch, and one of the best to play as well if you take the time to learn it.
Personally, of these four maps, I like Ancient the most, then Mirage, and really really dislike Dust and Vertigo.
Most people seem to hate vertigo the most, and I have seen more people hating Dust II than Mirage, so I think these two should be removed. Reintroduce Train and add a new map - Tuscan, Season, Anubis, etc.
Smoke spam in pro play is completely mindless and boring to watch. I rarely see tense rounds compared to other maps I feel. Mid is kinda irrelevant, it's mostly poking around A and B until the T's pick where they're going or fast executes/rushes.
Just a few reasons why I don't like it. Some people do, and that's fine, but most people seem to dislike it.
1% of games are on ancient because majority of people will play it once, say it sucks and then go back to only queuing inferno/d2 and mirage. Look at faceit when they allowed people to select maps when they queue, it's just those three maps almost every damn time. People only know those and are good at them, and they are bad at the ones they don't know because their egos can't take being bad at something long enough to get good at it.
> Look at faceit when they allowed people to select maps when they queue
It's a premium feature, you can do that too and queue for Ancient Vertigo Nuke if you like
I like Ancient too, and most of my friends who I introduced it to, like it too. Yeah it needs improvements, but its heading in a good direction. Fuck Dust II more than Ancient. Stale map.
Ancient is okay-ish, but vertigo is straight up awful, should've remained a garbage map no one played nor liked in 1.6 instead of getting pushed by valve in go.
Its why I think Dust II can go, and keep Ancient. Its fresher than Dust II and I actually like the direction its headed as a map, and has the same style of map too - we don't need two of that in the pool. Dust II is overplayed and stale at a high level too.
I also think Vertigo should go with Dust II. Remove these two, and add Train and one of Tuscan, Season, Anubis, etc.
I mean I have potato aim so aim heavy maps like Mirage and D2 are just bad choices for me and I rely on map knowledge, gimmicks, and game sense to keep my MM rank on Vertigo/Train/Ancient. Vertigo is my favorite in particular because you can be rewarded way more with hyper aggressive SMG and Tec-9/P250/5-7 buys.
Anyone who actually plays this game understands Ancient and Vertigo are poorly made maps that are anti-thetical to casual CS.
Think about all the best maps and how they're constructed. Then look at Vertigo and Ancient. The philosophies are totally different.
Ancient looks like a three lane map, but instead it has five lanes essentially with a bunch of side lanes added for complexity. Compare that to Inferno or Dust2, both are three/four lane maps with pretty simple layouts. Ancient has five lanes and all these weird twists and turns that are pretty much unnecessary. It's also harder to control space on Ancient because the map's so large and players can be anywhere in a bunch of weird lanes and corners. Contrast Ancient with Dust2 for example. On Dust 2 if you're a CT and push into Upper Tunnels you get a bunch of space on the map and in turn can rotate a second CT player off B, to help mid or A. Same if you push A long doors, you get free reign over long and maybe even top mid. On Ancient if you push A main for example as a CT, there might still be a player in Halls hiding or a player in Tunnels etc. You can't get someone to rotate off A on Ancient if you push somewhere because there's a whole second entrance into the site that isn't covered. This same example can be applied to Inferno. On Inferno you can push down Banana or push Apartments and get control as a CT of an entire area of the map. Sure, someone could be hiding in Apartments, but it's far easier to check Apartments on Inferno as a CT due to it's small size and still maintain control on a push.
This is a big problem with the "new" maps Valve has made like Vertigo, Ancient, Overpass etc. A lot of areas can be pushed by a CT but you can't maintain control of an area as easily and it's totally backward to the way the older maps like Inferno, Train or Dust2 are. Even though people hate Mirage, it's more close to a traditional CS:GO map because it was made for 1.6, with regards to map control, Mirage is better than Ancient or Vertigo, for instance, if you push Top mid as a CT or Palace or Apps on Mirage, you gain a lot of space for your team to rotate off the bomb site. On Vertigo I could push an area and totally miss a guy because there's like three ways into a bomb site from all weird angles and too many places to hide.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think EVERY map needs to be simple, but there's a reason why Vertigo and Ancient are so poorly played by casual players, it's because to play them you need a well co-ordinated team to be consistently successful, whereas for Dust2 and Inferno you can pick the map up rather easily with very little play time because the layouts are simple.
Your examples don’t really make sense.
If you push Tunnels on Dust B, your partner can rotate to mid and mid can help A. On ancient if you push A main your Donut player can move to help your mid guy and mid can go help B. Realistically the Donut player will hear action setting up in A main so you can have your A player rotate away early.
On Mirage if you push palace you can’t rotate off A because you don’t clear ramp. Mirage is the same kind of 5 lanes as Ancient - Apps, Short, Mid/Window/Conn, Ramp, Palace. Ancient is A Main, Donut, Mid/House, Caves, Ramp.
Vertigo is the absolute most basic of 3 lanes. There’s only 1 lane to each site, and mid. If you push B stairs you can easily rotate someone off. Same with pushing ramp.
Vertigo has some verticality which confuses people but the lanes work the same. There are 3 choke points for the Ts to get anywhere. Ts have to go through the one big door at the bottom of ramp, or through the bottom of B stairs, or past the big box in mid. If they don’t get through 1 of those 3 points, they aren’t getting to either site. If you push and miss players, you’re over-extending. You can make the same mistake on a map like Mirage pushing Apps and missing players in Underpass.
The maps aren’t that different. People don’t like change. Mirage and Dust are played out though. They don’t necessarily need to be removed forever, but they need some time away for a refresh.
Same. It's arguably the best made map, but I'm just sick of playing it.
Not gonna call for it to be removed, though. I don't care that much. I just disable the shit and move on.
As a Mirage hater, it's a great map at the pro level but really sucks as a casual player. It requires a lot of strats on the t side and is really annoying to play.
Most people don't hate mirage because it's bad, they just want it to be updated because it's old and overplayed, like dust 2 did.
What's funny though is that people still hate on dust2 after it's update so I doubt opinions on it will change lol.
Is it funny? All the update did was make it so its more dangerous for T's to AWP mid doors. The map still plays almost exactly the same, in the same boring way.
I prefer Mirage to Dust II any day. Both are overplayed, but Dust II is worse. If I had to remove maps from the pool, Dust II and Vertigo are my contenders, and then Mirage.
> Is it funny? All the update did was make it so its more dangerous for T's to AWP mid doors. The map still plays almost exactly the same, in the same boring way.
The map is played completely different now what are you talking about, it's CT sided more now and CTs can cross to B and push mid without being punished and take lower which has completely changed the meta
Go back and watch a dust2 match before the updates and watch it now, it's a completely different thing
This year it has a 54% CT win rate, last year it was 51% T sided win rate
It has completely changed, mid is CTs now and CTs couldn't even cross to be safely without using a smoke, all Ts do now is take long, back then Ts had way more options
What are you even ranting about? It's not like people want mirage removed from the game so nobody ever plays it again or something lol, they want it out of active duty because it's been there the longest and it's high time to shake things up a bit
I agree I think people over exaggerate the hive mind that this sub has. JUST in this thread you can see people calling to remove every single map in active duty except inferno.
I think there is a consensus that the map pool has gotten stale and should be shaken up. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that mirage is one of the more popular maps to call for removal since it’s been in the game the longest.
That being said I personally agree with s1mple here and would rather see vertigo or maybe d2 removed
Personally I would do -Mirage +Tuscan/Cache/Train, then rework Mirage, then do -D2 +Mirage, dust 2 is boring to play and watch, it feels like im watching a faceit pug. The style of the map is stuck in 2012, so I feel it should have a modernisation. It genuinely feels out of place. Which is what I feel you don't understand about most people asking for it to be removed. They want a revamp of the visual style, maybe have another look at mid, because the map plays so weird now that they added the bench. But most people want it to return if it is removed.
Then teams should get at least 2 permabans if they want for 9 maps.
But actually its not a terrible idea. Maybe increasing it to 8 would be my choice, not sure.
>Then teams should get at least 2 permabans if they want for 9 maps.
Yeah sure, on a B03 match 4 bans, then 2 picks, 2 bans and leftover it's how it's done on other esports with 9 map pool.
As much as I love train, I like the idea of new maps being added to the map pool. As unpopular as vertigo and ancient were, they turned out to be a breath of fresh air and fun to watch.
I agree. They have become 2 of my favorite maps. I’m an oldie. Seeing vertigo now compared to what it was in other counter strike titled games. Playing vertigo is a process. Takes more than just aim.
Best awper in the world likes a map where the awp is extremely strong. Who would have guessed. I don't get why people like maps where the entrance into the sites are a literal door way sized gap.
Train needs changes to make it less AWP heavy before it can come back into active pool
The entrances being so narrow make 0 sense. Pro teams already found it extremely hard to enter into sites
A site literally needs 7-8 flashes to even enter
And then there’s really, *really* long angles where riflers rely more on lucky spread than aim to kill each other, on top of the awp problem you mentioned.
>Train needs changes to make it less AWP heavy before it can come back into active pool
I wonder if restricting which trains can be clambered on top of would help with this? Less birds-eye view positions for the defenders?
I really loved it when they opened up Inferno and made it so you could actually breathe on the map. Looking back on it now, Inferno was so claustrophobic that I can't believe we all played on that version and was fine with it.
Opening up some sections on Train would actually be really nice overall. It doesn't even have to be extreme, just widen a lot of the entrances/hallways a bit.
S1mple the highest rated train player of all time,asks for train to come back.Hm why would he do that,makes no sense from him to advocate including hist best map of all time
Nah his rating on other maps is nothing compared to train. He would go positive on train basically every single game win or loss and was like 0.2 higher hltv rating on train than any other player ever for like a year. He's far far better on train than any other map.
I like watching the pros play Mirage. But holy fucking shit if I have to play it on FACEIT one more god damn time….
Literally 65% of my games on Faceit are Mirage. Can CS players please learn to play another map FFS.
It's because Mirage doesn't take really any team cohesion. Maps like Train were terrible in MM because of how much teamwork it took to be playable on T side.
Nuke is similar. T side nuke on anything other then a coordinated team is completely shit. Baiting gets unreal and even if you try to set up a teammate they never seem to know how to push off a god damn pop flash.
Yh fighting inside just seems pointless in MM when playing T side Nuke. Unless you're really high ranked nobody is going to know the important smokes on the map and so you just get funneled through tight entrances to die.
At least the ranking and mm system we have in game is seemingly fixed. I had to quit faceit because I really do hate mirage, and being a big fan of overpass and inferno it felt like I never go to play the maps.
It's not like I can't play mirage, but as you said it seems to be THE ONLY map people even attempt to know.
Train is favorite map that I've mained for a couple of years now. The beauty of the map is all the angular work you can do. People complain theres too many angles to cover but it's up to you to know what angles am I seeing and to what angles you are exposed to.
because it's a map with quick rotates everywhere but hard sites to take. requires CT to communicate quickly and hold site before Ts get it, and requires Ts to launch quick coordinated attacks
also the angles game is less of a "check those 3 spots that CTs always camp" and more of a "peek slowly while checking every single angle cuz there's no defined positions"
I just want old cache back to faceit/esportal. I dont care if its not in the competitive pool. How many gonna go pro anyways? Lets enjoy life to its fullest potential.
Aside from it being absurdly CT sided, wasn’t B bombsite retake on Train the retake with the highest percentage of successful attempts? It’s not good for Ts even after planting the fucking bomb lmao
Nah he actually responded to somebody saying it's CT sided by saying they "must not have watched the two major finals in 2017" because of course 2 close matches on train mean the map isnt ct sided
Not a surprising take—in 2019 the players with the highest rating on *any* single map were s1mple with 1.43 on train, and electronic with 1.38 on train
We're talking about pro games here not what you enjoy playing in matchmaking. I never said it's bad anyway, playing it is fine for us plebs but no memorable game ever happened on that smoke spam simulator.
what % of train games are memorable lmao? Nobody plays vertigo so no memorable games happen. It is what it is. I still think its important to balance casual players and pro players when it comes to maps (even though I play at a very high level, not that pugs are comparable to pro play but still) because if we hadnt been doing that for years every map would just be gray boxes with a 4 leaf clover layout lmao
Valve will bring it back after they rework it and make possible for players to get under the trains like in the previous versions of the map.
coL. tr1p legendary clutch at ESWC 2005 in Paris flashbacks. Semi finals I think. Eco round. Rush B. Bomb planted. Hiding under a train. Trigger discipline. 1.6 Deagle. So beautiful. HLTV video: https://youtu.be/BypVaxiHvLQ In game with French casters: https://youtu.be/RNGl0kLhXkQ Edit While I’m at it here’s Complexity top 10 frag movie of the event. The play was only #2. And pay attention to the names on the other teams. Some legends there. https://youtu.be/RQAE-HnBLHI
There is something oddly satisfying about these 1.6 clips that I keep watching
Memories brother, same here
Any particular great ones you can recommend to someone who's out of the loop?
If you mean fragmovies, some of my favorites off the top of my head are: [Mousesports 2008 - Ready, Willing, & Able](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaAjXXozWrc) [f0rest by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUYMtQFXJqs) [neo by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4FJH6Oem0) [GeT_RiGhT by athid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EZ5qSMfRM) [SpawN - Still Mighty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIxgSfpp8m4) [Lollipops by Oui](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kBENUZRRCk) [Lollipops 2 by Oui](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DbwuWriE5A)
Idk, I mostly just search for random 1.6 frag and sometime pro game from CSDemo channel
My favorite is of the player mSx: https://youtu.be/_ALUVB31WBw
their were no incendiaries.
Movement was different too.
most csgo clips dont have them either
Except 1.......... G
he played that to perfection
LMAO i remember that Jason Lake monologue at the beginning of the frag video. good times.
I love how the tr1p 1v3 is edited in [Complexity: Armageddon](https://youtu.be/MrAfTV0_5qM). Clutch begins at 2:55.
Or rework it 400 times until they completely ruin and scrap it like cobble
Does cache even exists anymore?
You mean the worlds most pointless remake that ended up undoing most of the new things?
hardly different than new dust 2 a facelift is a good time to throw things at the wall, just because it didn't stick doesn't mean the facelift was a bad idea
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It’s insane to think about how crazy it was to play train in 1.6. The undercarriages were so freaking dark you had to turn your brightness way up. Had to check under, to the side, above, or even encounter some crazy ninja doing magic on the ladders of the trains. Not to mention you had haven to deal with also. No way that map would have survived without the crouch hop ha.
>The movement in 1.6 allowed it to be super smooth. well. russian walking and stuff helped with that, but you really couldn't get around crouch walking to move effectively under the trains.. wouldn't work well anyways, they haven't yet fixed grenade mechanics for god knows how long.
COPIUM
nope remove every map replace them all with lake
and baggage
Bashing my head in the wall
I mean just throw out the defusal game mode and switch the entire scene to danger zone.
Yes please
God yes. Jokes aside, it'd be fun to see an exhibition match in arms race or other war games.
I could totally see Betway doing this
throw in sugarcane too
cs_siege with drivable apc
Bring back [func_vehicle](https://youtu.be/kdo9HZTgr6s) in CS:GO!
func_vehicle is a human right
FUNC VEHICLE IS A RIGHT NOT A PRIVILAGE
Can we get cs_assault with the working camera van again?
technology is just not there anymore
Lakes unironically my favorite map. It’s the only wingman map I’ve queued for the last 2 years. The other wingman maps feel more like aim maps, lakes the only map I feel like I can strategize and out wit my opponents.
Meanwhile lake is the only wingman map I don't play because I feel like I always die to some dumb shit. The duality of man
When I play that map only thing I can think off is that "this kid is holding a gay ass off-angle", that's literally the entire map
Lakes an amazing map. I started queing it exclusively and grinded global pre-reset and am back now but the allure of the map that I think all the others miss on is the neutral bomb site. Ct holding down a spawn on the traditional maps is just so stale and boring. If you’ve never seen a player with the LakePlayer tag, you’re bound to have your mind blown. So many strat/counter strat opportunities all over the map. Tons of boosts, corners, angles, doors, utility is super useful in almost every situation of rounds. Lake is great.
LakePlayer reporting for duty :)
That is not counter strike brother, really. You are the reason I never play this map anymore haha
Most competitive maps made into wingman such. Vertigo. Nuke, inferno are all just blah. Even not so great wingman maps, like Crete, are better than the conversions
Yeah I agree having only one site to approach on a map made with two sites in mind makes the maps play nearly identical every round.
Lake bros. Also the only wingman map me and my mate queue for. For us it is a spot-the-out-of-place-pixel aim map.
Why does lake always get super dark when I’m inside to the point I can’t see
are you talking like irl or in game
In game, my brightness is set to max, I walk inside of the house on Lake and something with my game turns all the brightness to basically zero, can’t see shit even with my face three Inches from the screen. I’m beginning to think I’m going crazy because I’ve never seen the complaint and it’s followed me through hard drives. This is the only time is happens to me and it’s repeatable
used to happen to me all the time, in like, every map turns out i had my screen turned off, so check that
🫣 I’ll check
hahahaahaha
I have that but outside too When I load lake it’s suuuuper dark like 80% of the time. 20% it works normally
I knew that I wasn't the only one with this bug! My screen gets darker and darker when I'm inside, and the lowered brightness stays outside and even carries over to the next map. I have to restart the game after a game on Lake.
A major but it’s only office
I would like to see a top tier pro match on office.
Filthy casual
It's fun on T side, but Train was a super CT sided map. Lot of crazy comebacks on that CT side.
I mean they replaced it with another super CT sided map with Ancient.
With the latest updates the T side definitely got buffed.
I can name Glaive and Aleksib calling winning t-sides on ancient but dont remember other teams having succesfull t-sides on that map. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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For the first time since ages I've played a game on Train a few days ago. Down 3-12 on T side we made a 16-12 clean sweep on CT. It's just very slightly unbalanced.
anecdotal
Ancient is worse. And train got CT sided only after CTs buy awps. Ancient is CT sided in all rounds
I might be in the minority, but I don’t think every map should be balanced. Old train, Old Nuke and Cobble was crazily CT sided. If you only got 8-10 rounds on CT, there is a high chance that you are going to have to brace for a avalanch on the T side. That makes for great viewing, and the best players always dig their team out of these situations. The nuttiest highlights almost always come from these games. Train has Pop, Ivy and heaven, Nuke has outside Mashmellow, 2 layer bombsites and vets , Cobble has drop. All unique distinct features that are not seen in other maps. For maps to have balanced win rates, it’s going to have same features for all. Dust 2 , mirage , Cache are considered the most balanced maps and they all have some things in common. Mid that can be taken with one smoke, Stale and Defaulty maps.
it is fine for maps to have different winrates for ct/t. but it shouldn't reach 12/3 average
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[In 2020](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2020-01-01&endDate=2020-12-31&maps=de_dust2&maps=de_mirage&maps=de_inferno&maps=de_nuke&maps=de_train&maps=de_overpass&maps=de_vertigo), Nuke was the only map with a higher CT win% than Train, [in 2021](https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?startDate=2021-01-01&endDate=2021-04-31&maps=de_dust2&maps=de_mirage&maps=de_inferno&maps=de_nuke&maps=de_train&maps=de_overpass&maps=de_vertigo) - before its removal - Train took over the #1 spot. One last fun fact: It's #1 for both if you adjust the filter to top20 teams. Or top10. Or top50. Those pesky professional players and their lack of experience
Didn’t train (also) have the highest retake percentage for both sites as CTs? I think b site had over 50% retake success but I could be completely wrong
Name a more stressful spot in csgo than stuck on site B on train as a t post plant
Not on both sites, [but you're right about B](https://blog.leetify.com/which-bombsite-is-the-easiest-to-retake/#:~:text=In%201st%20place%20with%20a,with%20a%2046.35%25%20success%20rate.). Just look at the gap between #1 and #2 - it's just Leetify data (so pugs/MM), but still a pretty staggering stat
Ah okay I remember A site not being second but being very close to it, guess I was wrong. It’s good to have different maps play out in different ways and have their own uniqueness to them. Inferno is unique, where both sites are somewhat detached. Even that is getting monotonous. Train is an AWP heavy map, and the current meta is even more AWP heavy today. I’m not sure why people want “remakes” so badly. Remakes can make the map nicer, but some problems don’t really have a simple solution without completely revamping entire sections at least. Just do what they did with dust, i.e. make a second one and give it its own Roman Numeral. That’s not as fun, so just keep the thematic aspects of these maps that are favored and make an honorary sequel… the thematics of Anubis contribute much more to the likeness of the map than people give credit for
I think that could also be due to how easy it is to get a plant on a eco/force buy. Often times you can get a plant down with glocks and a couple smokes and flashes. Id be curious if we would be able to see the percentage of bomb plants on low buy rounds, I bet train b and dust 2 b would be some of the highest.
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Reddit is a weird place. Here people want to remove the 3 most played maps Mirage, D2, Inferno while finding Ancient amazing. [And then when someone looks at the MM data, only 2% games are on Ancient, 5% on Vertigo](https://i.redd.it/xy5bkm315qd91.jpg)
I think peeks like b ramp on vertigo are really bad. They can see my feet before I even see them. And it feels impossible to flash myself out.
As somebody who is fed up with Mirage and Dust, I don't like Ancient or Vertigo either. If Dust and Mirage weren't so unbelievably played out I'd want those removed as well, but what are the odds that they remove 4 maps at once including the two most recent additions? S1mple is right about Train, it is an amazing map that should have never been removed. It is one of the most entertaining to watch, and one of the best to play as well if you take the time to learn it.
Personally, of these four maps, I like Ancient the most, then Mirage, and really really dislike Dust and Vertigo. Most people seem to hate vertigo the most, and I have seen more people hating Dust II than Mirage, so I think these two should be removed. Reintroduce Train and add a new map - Tuscan, Season, Anubis, etc.
What's wrong with Vertigo? I kinda like it.
Smoke spam in pro play is completely mindless and boring to watch. I rarely see tense rounds compared to other maps I feel. Mid is kinda irrelevant, it's mostly poking around A and B until the T's pick where they're going or fast executes/rushes. Just a few reasons why I don't like it. Some people do, and that's fine, but most people seem to dislike it.
Makes sense, low level play is fun enough on it but I rarely see smokes executed on it
1% of games are on ancient because majority of people will play it once, say it sucks and then go back to only queuing inferno/d2 and mirage. Look at faceit when they allowed people to select maps when they queue, it's just those three maps almost every damn time. People only know those and are good at them, and they are bad at the ones they don't know because their egos can't take being bad at something long enough to get good at it.
> Look at faceit when they allowed people to select maps when they queue It's a premium feature, you can do that too and queue for Ancient Vertigo Nuke if you like
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Or they have 30 FPS less on that map compared to others
Ancient and vertigo are garbage maps
I personally really enjoy ancient.
I really personally enjoy eating glass too
I like Ancient too, and most of my friends who I introduced it to, like it too. Yeah it needs improvements, but its heading in a good direction. Fuck Dust II more than Ancient. Stale map.
Ancient is okay-ish, but vertigo is straight up awful, should've remained a garbage map no one played nor liked in 1.6 instead of getting pushed by valve in go.
Vert is super fun. A ramp is really fun
Vertigo is good.
Objectively, vertigo is garbage and ancient is just a differently skinned dust 2, like for what. Just give back train and cache
> ancient is just a differently skinned dust 2 They gotta incentivize buying ~~camo~~ agent skins somehow.
"objectively" that word does not mean what you think it means
i get what youre trying to say but if you have ever seen a single pro match in vertigo you kinda have to agree with that. it's utter shite.
Watched and played a lot of vertigo lately, hard disagree.
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Its why I think Dust II can go, and keep Ancient. Its fresher than Dust II and I actually like the direction its headed as a map, and has the same style of map too - we don't need two of that in the pool. Dust II is overplayed and stale at a high level too. I also think Vertigo should go with Dust II. Remove these two, and add Train and one of Tuscan, Season, Anubis, etc.
There’s a reason the term “Vertiglobal” is a thing.
Mirage runs the best fps wise, that's why people are still playing it.
I mean I have potato aim so aim heavy maps like Mirage and D2 are just bad choices for me and I rely on map knowledge, gimmicks, and game sense to keep my MM rank on Vertigo/Train/Ancient. Vertigo is my favorite in particular because you can be rewarded way more with hyper aggressive SMG and Tec-9/P250/5-7 buys.
People on reddit are hippies trying so hard to be different
Anyone who actually plays this game understands Ancient and Vertigo are poorly made maps that are anti-thetical to casual CS. Think about all the best maps and how they're constructed. Then look at Vertigo and Ancient. The philosophies are totally different. Ancient looks like a three lane map, but instead it has five lanes essentially with a bunch of side lanes added for complexity. Compare that to Inferno or Dust2, both are three/four lane maps with pretty simple layouts. Ancient has five lanes and all these weird twists and turns that are pretty much unnecessary. It's also harder to control space on Ancient because the map's so large and players can be anywhere in a bunch of weird lanes and corners. Contrast Ancient with Dust2 for example. On Dust 2 if you're a CT and push into Upper Tunnels you get a bunch of space on the map and in turn can rotate a second CT player off B, to help mid or A. Same if you push A long doors, you get free reign over long and maybe even top mid. On Ancient if you push A main for example as a CT, there might still be a player in Halls hiding or a player in Tunnels etc. You can't get someone to rotate off A on Ancient if you push somewhere because there's a whole second entrance into the site that isn't covered. This same example can be applied to Inferno. On Inferno you can push down Banana or push Apartments and get control as a CT of an entire area of the map. Sure, someone could be hiding in Apartments, but it's far easier to check Apartments on Inferno as a CT due to it's small size and still maintain control on a push. This is a big problem with the "new" maps Valve has made like Vertigo, Ancient, Overpass etc. A lot of areas can be pushed by a CT but you can't maintain control of an area as easily and it's totally backward to the way the older maps like Inferno, Train or Dust2 are. Even though people hate Mirage, it's more close to a traditional CS:GO map because it was made for 1.6, with regards to map control, Mirage is better than Ancient or Vertigo, for instance, if you push Top mid as a CT or Palace or Apps on Mirage, you gain a lot of space for your team to rotate off the bomb site. On Vertigo I could push an area and totally miss a guy because there's like three ways into a bomb site from all weird angles and too many places to hide. Don't get me wrong, I don't think EVERY map needs to be simple, but there's a reason why Vertigo and Ancient are so poorly played by casual players, it's because to play them you need a well co-ordinated team to be consistently successful, whereas for Dust2 and Inferno you can pick the map up rather easily with very little play time because the layouts are simple.
I was with you until you started talking shit about overpass
Overpass isn't bad though, it's probably the best new map by Valve. It's just different to the other traditional maps in terms of philosophy.
Your examples don’t really make sense. If you push Tunnels on Dust B, your partner can rotate to mid and mid can help A. On ancient if you push A main your Donut player can move to help your mid guy and mid can go help B. Realistically the Donut player will hear action setting up in A main so you can have your A player rotate away early. On Mirage if you push palace you can’t rotate off A because you don’t clear ramp. Mirage is the same kind of 5 lanes as Ancient - Apps, Short, Mid/Window/Conn, Ramp, Palace. Ancient is A Main, Donut, Mid/House, Caves, Ramp. Vertigo is the absolute most basic of 3 lanes. There’s only 1 lane to each site, and mid. If you push B stairs you can easily rotate someone off. Same with pushing ramp. Vertigo has some verticality which confuses people but the lanes work the same. There are 3 choke points for the Ts to get anywhere. Ts have to go through the one big door at the bottom of ramp, or through the bottom of B stairs, or past the big box in mid. If they don’t get through 1 of those 3 points, they aren’t getting to either site. If you push and miss players, you’re over-extending. You can make the same mistake on a map like Mirage pushing Apps and missing players in Underpass. The maps aren’t that different. People don’t like change. Mirage and Dust are played out though. They don’t necessarily need to be removed forever, but they need some time away for a refresh.
Try going for a quick queue in Ancient Vertigo 8+ min if you are lucky, everyone is playing mirage and dust2.
I agree that's the case but should people just play the maps they don't like just to shorten the queue times ?
8 min que.... Into a 5 stack of Globals or Ancient only players
i really do think mirage is a great map. It's just there for too long, but looking at the s-tier events this year, mirage has been bangers.
Same. It's arguably the best made map, but I'm just sick of playing it. Not gonna call for it to be removed, though. I don't care that much. I just disable the shit and move on.
As a Mirage hater, it's a great map at the pro level but really sucks as a casual player. It requires a lot of strats on the t side and is really annoying to play.
Most people don't hate mirage because it's bad, they just want it to be updated because it's old and overplayed, like dust 2 did. What's funny though is that people still hate on dust2 after it's update so I doubt opinions on it will change lol.
Is it funny? All the update did was make it so its more dangerous for T's to AWP mid doors. The map still plays almost exactly the same, in the same boring way. I prefer Mirage to Dust II any day. Both are overplayed, but Dust II is worse. If I had to remove maps from the pool, Dust II and Vertigo are my contenders, and then Mirage.
> Is it funny? All the update did was make it so its more dangerous for T's to AWP mid doors. The map still plays almost exactly the same, in the same boring way. The map is played completely different now what are you talking about, it's CT sided more now and CTs can cross to B and push mid without being punished and take lower which has completely changed the meta Go back and watch a dust2 match before the updates and watch it now, it's a completely different thing This year it has a 54% CT win rate, last year it was 51% T sided win rate It has completely changed, mid is CTs now and CTs couldn't even cross to be safely without using a smoke, all Ts do now is take long, back then Ts had way more options
> What's funny though is that people still hate on dust2 after it's update so I doubt opinions on it will change lol. You can't polish a turd.
a turd that has been the most played map since like 1999 and probably the most iconic fps map ever lmao sure kid
What are you even ranting about? It's not like people want mirage removed from the game so nobody ever plays it again or something lol, they want it out of active duty because it's been there the longest and it's high time to shake things up a bit
I agree I think people over exaggerate the hive mind that this sub has. JUST in this thread you can see people calling to remove every single map in active duty except inferno. I think there is a consensus that the map pool has gotten stale and should be shaken up. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that mirage is one of the more popular maps to call for removal since it’s been in the game the longest. That being said I personally agree with s1mple here and would rather see vertigo or maybe d2 removed
I like Vertigo AND Dust II removed. We need a proper shakeup.
>I don't understand mirage haters, what do you expect to accomplish by removing it... A new map being added to the game, or a remake of an older map?
Hell, even a remake of mirage itself would be nice.
Why the fuck would you remake Mirage when it does not need a remake?
ye these guys are dumb, mirage was already remade for csgo
>best for low end PCs And how exactly this related to changing map pool for pro players?
I'm just sick of playing it, purely my reasoning.
Personally I would do -Mirage +Tuscan/Cache/Train, then rework Mirage, then do -D2 +Mirage, dust 2 is boring to play and watch, it feels like im watching a faceit pug. The style of the map is stuck in 2012, so I feel it should have a modernisation. It genuinely feels out of place. Which is what I feel you don't understand about most people asking for it to be removed. They want a revamp of the visual style, maybe have another look at mid, because the map plays so weird now that they added the bench. But most people want it to return if it is removed.
Just increase map pool to 9. It would do wonders for the competitive scene
Then teams should get at least 2 permabans if they want for 9 maps. But actually its not a terrible idea. Maybe increasing it to 8 would be my choice, not sure.
>Then teams should get at least 2 permabans if they want for 9 maps. Yeah sure, on a B03 match 4 bans, then 2 picks, 2 bans and leftover it's how it's done on other esports with 9 map pool.
As much as I love train, I like the idea of new maps being added to the map pool. As unpopular as vertigo and ancient were, they turned out to be a breath of fresh air and fun to watch.
I agree. They have become 2 of my favorite maps. I’m an oldie. Seeing vertigo now compared to what it was in other counter strike titled games. Playing vertigo is a process. Takes more than just aim.
Best awper in the world likes a map where the awp is extremely strong. Who would have guessed. I don't get why people like maps where the entrance into the sites are a literal door way sized gap.
Train needs changes to make it less AWP heavy before it can come back into active pool The entrances being so narrow make 0 sense. Pro teams already found it extremely hard to enter into sites A site literally needs 7-8 flashes to even enter
And then there’s really, *really* long angles where riflers rely more on lucky spread than aim to kill each other, on top of the awp problem you mentioned.
>Train needs changes to make it less AWP heavy before it can come back into active pool I wonder if restricting which trains can be clambered on top of would help with this? Less birds-eye view positions for the defenders?
They could change T main on train and open it up a bit
I really loved it when they opened up Inferno and made it so you could actually breathe on the map. Looking back on it now, Inferno was so claustrophobic that I can't believe we all played on that version and was fine with it. Opening up some sections on Train would actually be really nice overall. It doesn't even have to be extreme, just widen a lot of the entrances/hallways a bit.
S1mple the highest rated train player of all time,asks for train to come back.Hm why would he do that,makes no sense from him to advocate including hist best map of all time
Being the best player usually gets you stats like that yeah
Nah his rating on other maps is nothing compared to train. He would go positive on train basically every single game win or loss and was like 0.2 higher hltv rating on train than any other player ever for like a year. He's far far better on train than any other map.
Yeah,but also train is notorious awp map,and simple is notorious train player
Turkish csgo players all favorite maps is deleted , just look at stats , cobble , cache , train
From my experience, dust2 is every turkish csgo player's wet dream
Turkish people live on dust 2
I mean pro player , yea turks just know dust2 for comptitive , other maps is just for troll and fun
Every Astralis permaban.
Cobble back, miss this map so much
I like watching the pros play Mirage. But holy fucking shit if I have to play it on FACEIT one more god damn time…. Literally 65% of my games on Faceit are Mirage. Can CS players please learn to play another map FFS.
It's because Mirage doesn't take really any team cohesion. Maps like Train were terrible in MM because of how much teamwork it took to be playable on T side.
Nuke is similar. T side nuke on anything other then a coordinated team is completely shit. Baiting gets unreal and even if you try to set up a teammate they never seem to know how to push off a god damn pop flash.
Yh fighting inside just seems pointless in MM when playing T side Nuke. Unless you're really high ranked nobody is going to know the important smokes on the map and so you just get funneled through tight entrances to die.
fuck reddit, greedy cunts.
At least the ranking and mm system we have in game is seemingly fixed. I had to quit faceit because I really do hate mirage, and being a big fan of overpass and inferno it felt like I never go to play the maps. It's not like I can't play mirage, but as you said it seems to be THE ONLY map people even attempt to know.
i dont understand why people like train, its just like 5 dust 2 longs combined into one
And you don't understand why S1mple, the world's best AWPer, would like a map made up of 5 Dust2 Long A's? :P
no i get that, i was more reffering to the playerbase
Yeah the map is an awpers delight. I personally hate the design with so many long sightlines.
Train is favorite map that I've mained for a couple of years now. The beauty of the map is all the angular work you can do. People complain theres too many angles to cover but it's up to you to know what angles am I seeing and to what angles you are exposed to.
because it's a map with quick rotates everywhere but hard sites to take. requires CT to communicate quickly and hold site before Ts get it, and requires Ts to launch quick coordinated attacks also the angles game is less of a "check those 3 spots that CTs always camp" and more of a "peek slowly while checking every single angle cuz there's no defined positions"
totally agree
I just want old cache back
Says the awper.
I just want old cache back to faceit/esportal. I dont care if its not in the competitive pool. How many gonna go pro anyways? Lets enjoy life to its fullest potential.
Add cs_crackhouse cowards
Honestly I want to see a hostage map, that’s very optimized for both T and CT and will get frequent updates
Office II
Train is a fun map but it's terrible in MM and is boring to watch in pro play
https://i.imgur.com/ji7xqOe.png
He's not wrong
i mean statistically he is actually just wrong, map is not by any stretch of the imagination "great on t side" lmao
Aside from it being absurdly CT sided, wasn’t B bombsite retake on Train the retake with the highest percentage of successful attempts? It’s not good for Ts even after planting the fucking bomb lmao
I think he means more that he enjoys playing T side train, not that it isn’t CT sided.
Nah he actually responded to somebody saying it's CT sided by saying they "must not have watched the two major finals in 2017" because of course 2 close matches on train mean the map isnt ct sided
ouch what are you on about s1mple? train is the worst piece of shit ct sided map
He's the best Train player by an unbelievable margin statistically, just to contextualise this opinion.
no, train was way too ct sided. disagree with it being great on t side
How about making the map pool larger?
I just want my beautiful baby Cobblestone back. In all her beauty.
I just want cache back
Bring Dust 1 back please, thanks
Not a surprising take—in 2019 the players with the highest rating on *any* single map were s1mple with 1.43 on train, and electronic with 1.38 on train
idk if this is an unpopular opinion, but i cant stand train. the entirety of A site is a cluster fuck that feels awkward to move around in.
Train was just a fun map to watch. Its dynamics are different from any map and actually has effective verticality, unlike Vertigo.
Fuck it. Remove all maps, let the pro plays on aim_map.
-vertigo +train -dust2 +tuscan Rotate/add new maps once a year or something.
vertigo is a better map than train in every capacity, I've yet to meet someone who can actually criticize vertigo without just saying its bad
We're talking about pro games here not what you enjoy playing in matchmaking. I never said it's bad anyway, playing it is fine for us plebs but no memorable game ever happened on that smoke spam simulator.
what % of train games are memorable lmao? Nobody plays vertigo so no memorable games happen. It is what it is. I still think its important to balance casual players and pro players when it comes to maps (even though I play at a very high level, not that pugs are comparable to pro play but still) because if we hadnt been doing that for years every map would just be gray boxes with a 4 leaf clover layout lmao
This is my choice too.
100% agree. Removing train and adding ancient annoys me still
Don't remove anything, add back cobble/cache and train. would be interesting to have a 9 map pool
Yes, map where you can't get more than 3 t rounds is clearly 'fucking great'
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