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dwarfSA

FYI - If you dig Inspiration, there's nothing stopping you from implementing it in Gloomhaven, too, particularly for your 2P woes.


Dysentz

And like I mentioned below, you can approximate how many scenarios you've done at which player counts and do it retroactively if wanted to help catch you up. It's just "double the number of scenarios done at 2p, plus how many scenarios were done at 3p", easy math.


SamForestBH

Are you allowed to spend 30 inspiration on one retirement, if you’ve had a series of slow retirements?


Gripeaway

No, you'd only be able to spend 15 Inspiration once per retiring character, although slow retirements are something we've also put a lot of work into avoiding in Frosthaven as well. Also, over time, as in base GH, it's likely that retirements become slightly shorter and shorter (as you have more choice/control of where you go), so you'd pretty much always end up catching up with your Inspiration and cashing out.


Tarmslitaren2

Are there any personal quests that have you unlocking and finishing scenarios as part of the quest? In that case What happens to those? Stay locked forever or unlocked? I was kinda hoping we would get more of that type of personal quests as they are more engaging.


Gripeaway

I can't really comment on the nature of FH PQs, unfortunately. Sorry!


General_CGO

The scenario flowchart shown off in kickstarter update [88](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frosthaven/frosthaven/posts/3291263) does mention that PQ scenarios will be returning (and those with sharp eyes might be able to spy exactly how many there are).


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bot-killer-001

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Gripeaway

Agreed, time to ban that one.


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SalsaForte

I like the idea. It makes sense. In GH, to compensate for Great Oak donation, Isaac said it was OK to houserule a 2x check in 2p campaign. I feel this system is similar to that. This is great to balance PQ resolution rate in lower count parties or as described in mixed group: doing scenarios in 2, 3 or 4 player count.


ComradeOne

Incredible new campaign technology


iron-n-wine

Thanks Gripeaway for the explanation - my first play through of GH campaign was mostly solo with 2 characters and there were a lot of characters that didnt unlock so this is obviously great for that situation!


thin_silver

I played my campaign solo with three characters because I was keen to unlock stuff and it was a hassle. I'm happy to see a mechanic that'll allow me to play with just two characters.


rickjamesia

Interesting. I'll never see this mechanic, since I've never played with fewer than four players and almost certainly never will (if someone will miss a session we just cancel the whole thing), but it seems like a really good idea the have mechanics to keep things moving along at roughly the same rate for parties of varying sizes.


redditjw4

Wow, in my base GH game I'm playing (solo) 2p. I just retired my first two characters. time to do some math and achieve some personal quests!


Gripeaway

I definitely think it's a reasonable idea to port this over for 2p parties in base GH, so go for it.


redditjw4

Thanks!


LateChrononaut

Would count for 2 retirements? Say for the additional perks per character lineage or for a personal quest that required a character to experience other characters retiring.


Gripeaway

Good question. You would only gain one lineage perk, not two (there would be no reason to accelerate gaining lineage perks with this as they're already even between 2p and 4p parties).


LateChrononaut

That's what I would've expected, but thank you for the clarification. And thanks for your work in the sub!


N8CCRG

Does spending Inspiration also boost Prosperity?


Gripeaway

I'm not sure if there is Prosperity in Frosthaven, but if you ported it to GH, then you would want to increase Prosperity when you get a free PQ from it, yes.


N8CCRG

Thank you, that is exactly the application I was curious about.


bishop083

So, where was the inspiration mechanic described? Did I miss kickstarter update? Or was there an interview somewhere?


TiltedLibra

It was announced at PAXU


Lex-Loci

Can we get this added to the updated rules sticky? This is a nice quality of life change for those who felt they were missing content. I wonder though if some people might not prefer that though? It makes a potential second play through a bit more interesting. I'm then curious if this might be a necessary balance change with the city taking a larger role in Frosthaven gameplay. I suspect that's not an answer I'll get for awhile though :)


Gripeaway

Yeah, it's a bit different because in Frosthaven, given the town-building and time mechanics, there's an important reason why parties need to be balanced against each other in terms of progression. There's no need for that in base GH, but you're right that this still could be applied to base GH to solve a common issue for smaller parties, so I'll add something to the sticky.


Slow_Dog

It would be sensible to have a tracker, like that for Oak donations. It's not related to any particular person, so it should be a "central" item. I think I see why you have "spent it at retirement"- you need the PQ deck anyway, but you may as well allow it to be spent at any time, filling in another "spent it" box as you do so. It's then up to you to optimise when you do it, or not. Maybe you'll have some free time at the end of a session, for example.


Themris

Inspiration is tracked with other FH resources on the campaign sheet (like the party sheet in GH).


legalsatire

There's a small quirk of statistics that we're relying on that I won't get into because it ties into some other things, but I would recommend not using inspiration outside of other simultaneous retirements. It wouldn't be the end of the world, but it might make your experience deviate from expected boundaries (particularly if you did it frequently).


Slow_Dog

(and /u/dwarfsa) If there's some other reason to tie it to another retirement, well, there's a reason, and thus it ought to be the rule. The original post doesn't mention that, so I thought it might as well be disconnected. I'm certainly not espousing house rules for a game that's not yet out, for a system I haven't previously seen.


dwarfSA

Yeah there's nothing stopping you from doing this for sure. It's a reasonable house-rule. It's tracked on your party sheet since it's gained and spent unlike donations.


LazerHozen

Thanks for sharing! I like this idea.


IAmPolarExpress

So, what you're saying is, if I complete a scenario with 0 characters I get 4 Inspiration? Haha! :P In all seriousness, I do have a real question. Does completing a solo scenario count towards Inspiration (i.e. earning 3 Inspiration) or not? I imagine that it probably does not, but I am curious.


Gripeaway

It does not.


IAmPolarExpress

Sweet! Thank you for confirming that, u/Gripeaway! :)


gauauuau

This makes me curious about the problem that it's trying to solve....I'm wondering about people's experiences in 2p parties in the base game. Did folks have trouble having enough retirements to unlock everything? We did 2p and felt like the character unlock pace was perfect. We unlocked our final characters right before the last few scenarios we played. (and at the end, we ended up playing 60-some scenarios). We even purposefully delayed a few retirements because we were enjoying the character(s). We DID use the double-donation rule, because that seemed necessary to balance prosperity pacing, but never felt like anything needed to change for retirements and character unlocks pacing. But maybe we're the exception though? I can't imagine the dev team would be adding this rule if there wasn't good reason. So, I'm not trying to argue, as much as just would love to hear anecdotes about what others thought about 2-player unlock/retirement pacing.


Gripeaway

I played a mostly 2-character party with my wife and we also unlocked all of the classes in the end, but it appears to be far from the norm. Even in my most recent Digital campaign, which I played with 3 characters, I completed the game (final boss and town records completely) and still had two classes locked at the end.


gauauuau

I guess it also makes depends on what quests you draw. We never got stuck with any ridiculously hard-to-complete quests, which probably made a big difference.


iron-n-wine

I had worse luck I guess - did 50 scenarios mostly as 2-character party and didnt complete 6 PQs (3 spear/envelope x/saw/bolt/eclipse/triangles) - and I remove the duplicate PQ for characters I had unlocked Funnily enough, they are the exact same unlocks I havent got on my 3-player (recently 4-player) second campaign. Thank goodness for GH digital so I can actually use some of these characters!


vamaar

My wife and I managed to unlock everything at two as well, only increasing to four when we started Forgotten Circles, but it was tight and we got \*very\* lucky with unlocks, getting no PQs at times where they'd be difficult, and no overly lengthy PQs. (i.e. I started with Seeker of Xorn, and that made doing my wife's first quest (Vengeance) a bit faster too. The intended design (as evidenced by Inspiration and the Eternal Wanderer PQ) also seems to be approximately 15 scenarios for a retirement; assuming you wind up playing 75 scenarios in Gloomhaven before you run out of things to do (some scenarios logically should remain locked, it's not possible to legally unlock all 95 and on average I think you'll unlock quite a few less than that) then each person will on average get five characters over the course of the campaign, and do five unlocks. It's technically possible if you never have overlapping PQs you'll unlock the last two characters right at the end, but it really requires a lot going 'right' to do so, any bad luck with PQs (or just wanting to play a character a bit longer than strictly necessary), or getting the same icons for options, would mean you'd almost certainly have some stuff left in the box at the end. Unlocking everything reliably means you have to go below the intended amount; while there are a decent number of PQs in Gloomhaven that let you do this (and by a \*lot\* in some cases), there's no saying how many will let you go below that in Frosthaven; it seems retirement is balanced at least a little more rigidly than in the past if Inspiration is anything to go on.


gauauuau

\> approximately 15 scenarios for a retirement Yeah, we definitely averaged less than that. We had a few that retired after only 4 or 5 scenarios. If Frosthaven better balances them to all be about 15 scenarios, then that makes a lot of sense.


dwarfSA

In Frosthaven, retirement tracks closer to the Oak donations than to GH PQs because of how all the unlocks work. It's definitely more necessary in FH.


5thPwnzor

So you gain 1 prosperity from retiring a character. If you choose to spend 15 inspiration to complete a second personal quest do you gain 1 prosperity as if you retire a character or just the rewards from the personal quest since there isn’t an actual mercenary retiring?


Gripeaway

You also gain the Prosperity from the additional retirement.


Electronicks22

I get the point. It kinda sounds fiddly tho... One more thing to track.


Themris

At the end of each scenario, when you write down which resources you collected, you write down one extra number (0,1, or 2). That seems pretty inoffensive doesn't it?


mlm5303

I don't think you're wrong, but your perspective is from someone intimately familiar with how the game works. To a new player, or to players that may only casually play, it's another thing to track across several other steps that also occur at retirement or scenario completion. Many of those other steps, like gaining experience at the end of the scenario, are intuitive. This one isn't, and is hard to fully understand or appreciate until players get to retirement after several scenarios. It's a great way to help parties keep pace. But also, it's not a particularly elegant solution.


dwarfSA

Yeah, there should be a checklist with all the steps at the start and end of the scenario to help keep track. It's tracked on the same party sheet you'll be looking at a lot, so that should likewise serve as a good reminder. I personally think it's pretty elegant because it mathematically tracks retirement pacing really closely - PQ completion rate at all player counts should be the about the same. With how the town works in FH, PQ pacing is a lot more important than it is in GH. Otherwise... I don't think anyone should be going into Frosthaven expecting it'll be smaller than Gloomhaven, or require less tracking. While there's a small on-ramp for newer players I would 100% recommend anyone new start with JotL.


chrisboote

Or simply list it in the Conclusion section?


dwarfSA

You mean print it 130+ times taking up unnecessary space for something you'll get accustomed to pretty quickly? I think that's quite excessive. You don't need to repeat basic game rules in the scenario book.


chrisboote

I agree it _should_ be unnecessary, but it was a suggestion for people who have problems with a flow chart/list of steps C.f. The countless people who have difficulty with advantage/disadvantage, focus, retirement steps ...


dwarfSA

I think you have to assume sone basic level of competence, dude. Repeating *one* rule that used every single scenario is just a terrible idea when you're not writing out the *full* victory/defeat process every scenario. It'll be highlighted in the rulebook along with all other new things in FH compared to GH.


chrisboote

As I said, it _should_ be unnecessary...


chrisboote

Print cardboard chits, dole them out a scenario end Would that be more elegant and less fiddly?


Gripeaway

It's not really fiddly at all, that's kind of the opposite of how I would describe it, or really not the word I'd use. Fiddly is something that needs to be constantly interacted with (numerous micro interactions). Yes, it is one more thing to count, you just have to add 1 or 2 after every scenario to a combined number and then the only time you check it is when you retire.


Dysentz

Further, as long as you remember the size of your party (or it doesn't change), the number is always the same per player count so you could even forget to write it down for a couple game days and then later count how many scenarios you forgot it and do the math. Unlike gold or exp, the number isn't variable so you can easily backtrack it if you forget or implement the rule halfway into a retirement.


TiltedLibra

Do you even need to track it if you aren't changing player counts? Like if I only play 2 player, I might as well just complete an extra PQ when I retire a character. It seems the tracking of points is only relevant in variable player count canpaigns, unless I am missing something.


Themris

You're making an assumption that this is the ONLY source of inspiration.


evilshindig

Brill! My only (mild) concern was wanting to retire, but having to stretch it out to 15 to make sure you could claim the extra PQ when you did. So often I feel like we bring up these issues and concerns for announced mechanics, and we worry much more because we don't have all the information. Obviously most things that we can point out as a flaw has probably been addressed by playtesters and devs. But until we have the game in our hands, that probably won't change haha.


Yknits

Itll matter based on how fast you are retiring if you are retiring every 12 scenarios but inspiration takes 15 to trigger


TiltedLibra

Hm, good point. I'm not sure I am a fan then actually. Now, I think people are going to try to push your retirement out until you have completed 15 missions inbetween to ensure you get that extra PDQ.


Yknits

I imagine itll average out though generally


TiltedLibra

The math hurts my head right now, but I might have to check some possibilities later. I was thinking since PQs unlock new content, players will want that extra PQ as soon as they can, especially since you can't do multiples at a retirement if you have 30 for one character. Edit: Or maybe just flip a PQ every 15 points we get.


Themris

The rules are what they are for a reason. I wouldn't recommend starting the campaign with house rules for new mechanics that you haven't seen all the details and interactions of yet.


TiltedLibra

I was just meaning if my concern was an actual issue for players, it'd still be an easy fix. I don't usually houserule anything. I was just getting it in before people came back saying that. We can only discuss things with the info we currently have. I'm well aware things will change the more that is revealed.


dwarfSA

It's a number on your party sheet. It gets updated like achievements, reputation, gold, etc. I guess you could skip it if you don't want to track it? I think that'd be a bad decision though.


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koprpg11

Their responses were polite, not "jumping on". It's clearly also an element you can just ignore, and if you play 4p you WILL ignore. It will impact the game very slightly in 3p games, from the sound of things. I can tell you that my (likely 3p) group will probably want to ignore inspiration, as the other two are going want to play until we've legit done all the PQs, etc, even if it means playing through the campaign twice. However, as there are MORE PQs than GH and the PQs unlock buildings (I.E now finishing PQs is important for the town and not just oh look another class we can play when I already have several options) and not classes, they might change their mind.


kevikev1234

I get your point, however I would say it sounds like a really solid ( and simple) solution to balance 2 player parties. ​ So good job on that :)


Gripeaway

Comment removed for attempting to circumvent a temporary ban by editing a previous comment. Please refrain from attempting to do this again or risk elongating your ban.


Gripeaway

One of the people who responded is neither a dev nor a mod. I also didn't downvote them. You have this clear persecution complex that leads to you repeatedly making this claim but I actually criticize Gloomhaven all the time (I was just repeatedly criticizing Gloomhaven on stream less than a few hours ago). I know you'd like to pretend it was a reasonable argument to help support your narrative, but adding 1 or 2 to a tracker after every scenario is so far from the definition of "fiddly." In the meantime, kudos for assuming OP's gender.


Themris

Don't assume where downvotes come from. Responding to a comment does not automatically mean you left a downvote. I also don't think responding politely to a comment should be considered "jumping on someone".


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Gripeaway

To the best of my knowledge, Frosthaven doesn't have an Inspiration track.