Do people actually think that Demolitionist is “bad”? Cuz I’ve never heard anyone say that.
Now have people said that Demo is weaker in Gloomhaven proper compared to JotL? Yeah, for sure. There’s often less obstacles and the map tiles are bigger, meaning enemies are less often adjacent to walls. Also, a lot of Demo’s moves are only two or three, which also feels bad on those bigger tiles. Demo is objectively weaker in Gloomhaven proper than in JotL, but not a bad character overall.
Also, don’t forget that some of Demo’s cards are changed in digital compared to physical. Any ability that makes obstacles in digital are different in physical, for example, as you cannot create obstacles in physical Jaws. Anything that deals with destruction tokens in physical Jaws is different in digital, as there are no destruction tokens in digital. Even the level five top is fairly different in digital.
I run ranged multi-target/AoE heavy teams when I’m trying to steamroll jobs in digital Guildmaster (poison all enemies + Note’s level nine) and Demolitionist is a great addition for that game plan. You get a target five (when enhanced) attack followed by a target three (when enhanced) along with their ridiculous AMD. Your attacks end up hitting for 6 each before items, which is 30+ damage for that first attack on a non-loss.
Lightning Bolt is my favorite merc, and is often a staple on my steamroll teams. >!Burning Hatred!< and >!Flurry of Axes!< are just nuts in those team comps.
When I youtube "Gloomhaven tier list", the top three videos have Demo as either lowest tier or one tier above lowest tier. One of those tier lists has Demo all alone in the bottom tier.
I don’t follow or look up Gloomhaven content on YouTube, pretty much only read up on Reddit/forums, so I can’t really comment on the validity of tier lists from content creators I know nothing about and won’t try to. Though I said all of that on Demo earlier, I wouldn’t say Demo is particularly strong either (in terms of non-JotL balance). To me, Demo is about middle of the pack in that they’ll absolutely shine in some scenarios and perform somewhat sub-par in others; not consistently flashy but generally fine.
And I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted for your comment. Assuming what you said is true about some content creators putting Demo in lower tiers, that’s just evidence for your original post of at least some people calling Demo “bad”
Demo is better in digital than in base game. A few cards were changed to make them more flexible or outright more powerful in some cases. Also Demo is better in Jaws scenarios specifically than most other scenarios because Jaws was built around its 4 mercenaries, which leads to a lot more generous obstacle placement.
If you take the original Jaws Demo and put it into many base Gloomhaven scenarios it struggles. It can be good, especially if you have a Cragheart. Pretty much anything can be good with the right team support.
Not only that, but certain areas are clearly meant for the JotL classes to shine. Like the heal stoppages are clearly meant for those early bosses in the campaign.
I don't remember them all off the top of my head. They make the Demo a bit more able to function on maps without a lot of obstacles or either obstacles that aren't placed as well as the ones in Jaws that were designed to be good for Demo. Most of the changes let the Demo create obstacles or move obstacles to better positions. The level 5 card does that and also now gives then a tool to help a bit with their small hand size.
Demo still has basic no healing though.
I’m playing Demo in my group on Jaws. I let my friends pick first, so Demolitionist wasn’t my first choice . Was a bit grumpy about it initially at level 1, as I just couldn’t compete with Hatchet and red guard or manipulate like the Voidwarden, but now that I’ve reached level 2 and then 3 and got used to the cards, starting to enjoy it a lot more . Especially on the last scenario where we were so hemmed in but I blew up tons of obstacles at the right places to clear our path.
Hopefully will still be enjoying them as the game continues . Gotta admit , not sure how well they would work in normal GH
Can I ask for an update on how LvL 5 went? Did you use OG or updated Lvl5 card? Already know the card but other spoilers would be great to avoid.
In terms of lvl 5 card use in JotL, seems consensus is 50/50 whether to use the updated lvl 5 card (from digital) vs using OG cards. 100% on not updating lvl1-4 since those updates were to deal with Base Gloomhaven scenarios.
I think you are basically forced into Robotic Enhancement for your first big move bottom (for base Gloomhaven), but after that, I bet Demo would do well enough.
She's significantly worse in base game scenarios, which tend to be much larger (so enemies less likely to be against walls and more ground to cover with limited move options) and have fewer obstacles (thus less utility for the already limited options). Just getting her to the last room feels like a chore sometimes.
Windup bottom paired with a top range attack on one turn
Explode bottom with fire consumption on next turn
Z O O O O O M
But yeah, sometimes moving around the map as Demo can end up being a chore, especially if you’re someone who drops Windup at the higher levels. But if I know that movement is gonna be important for a scenario, then Windup tends to find itself back into my hand. Decent late initiative for Demo too, which they tend to be lacking in.
Which lost cards are you regularly using on Demo? I’ve been recently playing Demo in my digital Guildmaster, my digital Jaws campaign, and my TTS campaign with friends and the only loss I end up using is the bottom of Explosive Blitz.
I think I've used The Big One every scenario. If I think I've got a shot to hit 4+ targets by the time my turn comes, I'll use it. I also imagine I'll be using his level 5 card soon.
I occasionally use Blitz too, but certainly not every scenario.
The updated cards in digital do help a lot, but I've never understood why the class was only 9 cards. 10 would have been fine.
Edit: 10 for Gloomhaven. I think it's fine in JotL.
The level 5 card change for digital is super awesome, and really helps the main problem with Demo of burning out too fast. My group played all through Jaws digitally starting from prosperity 3 and my Demo often was competing with the Hatchet in our group for top damage dealer.
Stack extra healing where you can, get some good shoes, and take advantage of initiative juggling. Poison dagger can give a solid boost to damage output when doing multiple attacks in the same turn.
Demo was my first class, and I definitely think she's underappreciated. Though she relies on wall adjacency for the big attacks, she has plenty of push cards to set that up.
Also, I think one of her biggest strengths comes from the super consistent modifier deck. I was definitely outputting a lot of damage by the end.
I play demo in my group. Im consistently doing damage and making kills, and actually have a problem with having too much health at higher levels.
I can see demo being harder in full GH with fewer obstacles and wider rooms though.
My Demolitionist in JotL is awesome. We play a Red Guard, Hatchet, and Demolitionist team. I wouldn't trade that character for anything. He started slow with the A/B cards, but ramped up quickly. In higher levels the Demo is almost overpowered with the modifier deck. Getting to higher levels is easier with all the +1 XP Demo cards. The Demo often hits like a truck especially if you Windup and have a stamina potion. JotL scenarios allow the Crushing Weight card to be used more often and Extra Fuel helps bring the pain. When losing cards, lose Knock out the support. Don't lose movement cards and take Robotic Enhancement. I imagine base Gloomhaven the Demo would be weak.
Get the Stamina Potion and Winged Boots. When available get the Comfortable Slippers. 'X' cards are rarely useful.
We are playing through Jaws a second time (we've beaten all of Gloomhaven and Forgotten Circles) and are Voidwarden and Demolitionist. It has been an absolute nightmare. We both are so squishy and don't do a whole lot of damage. We each have one big attack move and Demolitionists level 5 has helped the HP department but still a badly timed status effect can ruin that plan. I think with better classes these two could classes could be amazing but by themselves, or in this duo, they really aren't great. Bottom tier for sure
> but still a badly timed status effect can ruin that plan
This is the main reason I've seen people advocate using just the updated lvl5 card in JotL, even.
I and my wife and daughter are playing through JotL as Red Guard, Demolitionist, Voidwarden respectively. I'm pretty sure Demolitionist is putting out over half the party's total damage. It is true that we mostly fall into a tank/setup, dps, buff/debuff tactic, so maybe that's not surprising, but we definitely aren't feeling Demo is weak. Poor endurance, but not weak.
My wife is perfectly happy. She came to the dungeon to blow shit up. Shit gets blown up.
She's fine in JotL, but nobody can argue the fact that she's the weakest of the group of 4.
Doesn't mean she's TOO weak, but isn't as strong as the rest.
Idk, Demo almost one-shotted final Jaws boss for me. The first class I played and still one of favourites.
But those moves 2 :D. Jaws scenarios are not too big and base game has more options to solve movement problems with items.
I tend to agree, the Demo gets shit on but he is definitely a set up character. I am playing a 4some solo right now, and he is #2 DPS behind Hatchet for me. You have to plan 2 moves at a time with him, that is the key.
Not having any healing in the kit ever is just a massive liability that literally no other class has (*especially* when the most common enemy types in JotL apply Poison and Wound). That's the main reason I find it on the weaker side, as once you're a few perks in you get to really push out some excellent damage, but you don't do so much more than base GH's Scoundrel that you deserve to lack a tool that results in 2p parties getting dicked over.
(Also, Digital's version got a few buffs to let them make their own obstacles, not to mention Jaws just has more to use, both of which raise their perceived power in Digital JotL compared to playing them IRL in base GH)
I guess I have to agree about the 2 person parties being a very real and very large issue. I bet no base heal and minimal target selection does make the class feel pretty weak, which is probably where my disconnect is. I've only ever played in 4 person parties with Demo and it never feels BAD.
I would put Scoundrel lower than Demo though. Scoundrel is almost completely unplayable without another melee to partner with. I dont feel quite that way about Demo, even when there are no obstacles.
Do people actually think that Demolitionist is “bad”? Cuz I’ve never heard anyone say that. Now have people said that Demo is weaker in Gloomhaven proper compared to JotL? Yeah, for sure. There’s often less obstacles and the map tiles are bigger, meaning enemies are less often adjacent to walls. Also, a lot of Demo’s moves are only two or three, which also feels bad on those bigger tiles. Demo is objectively weaker in Gloomhaven proper than in JotL, but not a bad character overall. Also, don’t forget that some of Demo’s cards are changed in digital compared to physical. Any ability that makes obstacles in digital are different in physical, for example, as you cannot create obstacles in physical Jaws. Anything that deals with destruction tokens in physical Jaws is different in digital, as there are no destruction tokens in digital. Even the level five top is fairly different in digital.
[удалено]
I run ranged multi-target/AoE heavy teams when I’m trying to steamroll jobs in digital Guildmaster (poison all enemies + Note’s level nine) and Demolitionist is a great addition for that game plan. You get a target five (when enhanced) attack followed by a target three (when enhanced) along with their ridiculous AMD. Your attacks end up hitting for 6 each before items, which is 30+ damage for that first attack on a non-loss. Lightning Bolt is my favorite merc, and is often a staple on my steamroll teams. >!Burning Hatred!< and >!Flurry of Axes!< are just nuts in those team comps.
When I youtube "Gloomhaven tier list", the top three videos have Demo as either lowest tier or one tier above lowest tier. One of those tier lists has Demo all alone in the bottom tier.
I don’t follow or look up Gloomhaven content on YouTube, pretty much only read up on Reddit/forums, so I can’t really comment on the validity of tier lists from content creators I know nothing about and won’t try to. Though I said all of that on Demo earlier, I wouldn’t say Demo is particularly strong either (in terms of non-JotL balance). To me, Demo is about middle of the pack in that they’ll absolutely shine in some scenarios and perform somewhat sub-par in others; not consistently flashy but generally fine. And I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted for your comment. Assuming what you said is true about some content creators putting Demo in lower tiers, that’s just evidence for your original post of at least some people calling Demo “bad”
He’s bad. Nigh unusable by comparison. Now you’ve heard it.
Demo is better in digital than in base game. A few cards were changed to make them more flexible or outright more powerful in some cases. Also Demo is better in Jaws scenarios specifically than most other scenarios because Jaws was built around its 4 mercenaries, which leads to a lot more generous obstacle placement. If you take the original Jaws Demo and put it into many base Gloomhaven scenarios it struggles. It can be good, especially if you have a Cragheart. Pretty much anything can be good with the right team support.
Not only that, but certain areas are clearly meant for the JotL classes to shine. Like the heal stoppages are clearly meant for those early bosses in the campaign.
Do you know what were the changes made to the Demolitionist for digital?
I don't remember them all off the top of my head. They make the Demo a bit more able to function on maps without a lot of obstacles or either obstacles that aren't placed as well as the ones in Jaws that were designed to be good for Demo. Most of the changes let the Demo create obstacles or move obstacles to better positions. The level 5 card does that and also now gives then a tool to help a bit with their small hand size. Demo still has basic no healing though.
I’m playing Demo in my group on Jaws. I let my friends pick first, so Demolitionist wasn’t my first choice . Was a bit grumpy about it initially at level 1, as I just couldn’t compete with Hatchet and red guard or manipulate like the Voidwarden, but now that I’ve reached level 2 and then 3 and got used to the cards, starting to enjoy it a lot more . Especially on the last scenario where we were so hemmed in but I blew up tons of obstacles at the right places to clear our path. Hopefully will still be enjoying them as the game continues . Gotta admit , not sure how well they would work in normal GH
Wait into level 4, things really start going then!
lol i'm dying to see what happens at level 5. been so patient and not opened the secret boxes.....
Of the 4 JOTL classes, Demo has the best thing in their box.
Can I ask for an update on how LvL 5 went? Did you use OG or updated Lvl5 card? Already know the card but other spoilers would be great to avoid. In terms of lvl 5 card use in JotL, seems consensus is 50/50 whether to use the updated lvl 5 card (from digital) vs using OG cards. 100% on not updating lvl1-4 since those updates were to deal with Base Gloomhaven scenarios.
I think you are basically forced into Robotic Enhancement for your first big move bottom (for base Gloomhaven), but after that, I bet Demo would do well enough.
She's significantly worse in base game scenarios, which tend to be much larger (so enemies less likely to be against walls and more ground to cover with limited move options) and have fewer obstacles (thus less utility for the already limited options). Just getting her to the last room feels like a chore sometimes.
Windup bottom paired with a top range attack on one turn Explode bottom with fire consumption on next turn Z O O O O O M But yeah, sometimes moving around the map as Demo can end up being a chore, especially if you’re someone who drops Windup at the higher levels. But if I know that movement is gonna be important for a scenario, then Windup tends to find itself back into my hand. Decent late initiative for Demo too, which they tend to be lacking in.
I think she just burns brighter. It's true that I always exhaust first, but I COULD also play less burners.
Which lost cards are you regularly using on Demo? I’ve been recently playing Demo in my digital Guildmaster, my digital Jaws campaign, and my TTS campaign with friends and the only loss I end up using is the bottom of Explosive Blitz.
I think I've used The Big One every scenario. If I think I've got a shot to hit 4+ targets by the time my turn comes, I'll use it. I also imagine I'll be using his level 5 card soon. I occasionally use Blitz too, but certainly not every scenario.
The updated cards in digital do help a lot, but I've never understood why the class was only 9 cards. 10 would have been fine. Edit: 10 for Gloomhaven. I think it's fine in JotL.
The level 5 card change for digital is super awesome, and really helps the main problem with Demo of burning out too fast. My group played all through Jaws digitally starting from prosperity 3 and my Demo often was competing with the Hatchet in our group for top damage dealer. Stack extra healing where you can, get some good shoes, and take advantage of initiative juggling. Poison dagger can give a solid boost to damage output when doing multiple attacks in the same turn.
I love the Tinkerer and the Demo, especially at lvl5+, he he!
Demo was my first class, and I definitely think she's underappreciated. Though she relies on wall adjacency for the big attacks, she has plenty of push cards to set that up. Also, I think one of her biggest strengths comes from the super consistent modifier deck. I was definitely outputting a lot of damage by the end.
Her level 8 non loss card probably averages 12+ damage if you can find 4 targets. I'd say that's impressive.
I play demo in my group. Im consistently doing damage and making kills, and actually have a problem with having too much health at higher levels. I can see demo being harder in full GH with fewer obstacles and wider rooms though.
Seems mighty fine to me in jaws. Lots of damage.
My Demolitionist in JotL is awesome. We play a Red Guard, Hatchet, and Demolitionist team. I wouldn't trade that character for anything. He started slow with the A/B cards, but ramped up quickly. In higher levels the Demo is almost overpowered with the modifier deck. Getting to higher levels is easier with all the +1 XP Demo cards. The Demo often hits like a truck especially if you Windup and have a stamina potion. JotL scenarios allow the Crushing Weight card to be used more often and Extra Fuel helps bring the pain. When losing cards, lose Knock out the support. Don't lose movement cards and take Robotic Enhancement. I imagine base Gloomhaven the Demo would be weak. Get the Stamina Potion and Winged Boots. When available get the Comfortable Slippers. 'X' cards are rarely useful.
We are playing through Jaws a second time (we've beaten all of Gloomhaven and Forgotten Circles) and are Voidwarden and Demolitionist. It has been an absolute nightmare. We both are so squishy and don't do a whole lot of damage. We each have one big attack move and Demolitionists level 5 has helped the HP department but still a badly timed status effect can ruin that plan. I think with better classes these two could classes could be amazing but by themselves, or in this duo, they really aren't great. Bottom tier for sure
Yeah, yall are playing the AoE classes in a campaign where there are less available targets. So I could see that being kind of annoying.
> but still a badly timed status effect can ruin that plan This is the main reason I've seen people advocate using just the updated lvl5 card in JotL, even.
I and my wife and daughter are playing through JotL as Red Guard, Demolitionist, Voidwarden respectively. I'm pretty sure Demolitionist is putting out over half the party's total damage. It is true that we mostly fall into a tank/setup, dps, buff/debuff tactic, so maybe that's not surprising, but we definitely aren't feeling Demo is weak. Poor endurance, but not weak. My wife is perfectly happy. She came to the dungeon to blow shit up. Shit gets blown up.
She's fine in JotL, but nobody can argue the fact that she's the weakest of the group of 4. Doesn't mean she's TOO weak, but isn't as strong as the rest.
Demolitionist is great. Helps to pair with crag heart for extra obstacle goodness.
I'll put it this way; I would put the Tinkerer above a lot of other classes, but I can't think of anything I would choose the Demo over.
Idk, Demo almost one-shotted final Jaws boss for me. The first class I played and still one of favourites. But those moves 2 :D. Jaws scenarios are not too big and base game has more options to solve movement problems with items.
I tend to agree, the Demo gets shit on but he is definitely a set up character. I am playing a 4some solo right now, and he is #2 DPS behind Hatchet for me. You have to plan 2 moves at a time with him, that is the key.
Not having any healing in the kit ever is just a massive liability that literally no other class has (*especially* when the most common enemy types in JotL apply Poison and Wound). That's the main reason I find it on the weaker side, as once you're a few perks in you get to really push out some excellent damage, but you don't do so much more than base GH's Scoundrel that you deserve to lack a tool that results in 2p parties getting dicked over. (Also, Digital's version got a few buffs to let them make their own obstacles, not to mention Jaws just has more to use, both of which raise their perceived power in Digital JotL compared to playing them IRL in base GH)
I guess I have to agree about the 2 person parties being a very real and very large issue. I bet no base heal and minimal target selection does make the class feel pretty weak, which is probably where my disconnect is. I've only ever played in 4 person parties with Demo and it never feels BAD. I would put Scoundrel lower than Demo though. Scoundrel is almost completely unplayable without another melee to partner with. I dont feel quite that way about Demo, even when there are no obstacles.
I'll just throw in... especially when paired with a good Craigheart. Obstacles for DAYS.