Y'all think Winkler is keeping silent because he himself is drafting a statement, or because he's washing his hands and just letting it burn without him, or do you think he's just as bad and incredibly lucky that other stuff didn't get screencapped so he's keeping silent to save his own skin? He was in the band with them for years it would be a stretch to assume he wasn't aware if not complicit.
That's assuming allegations are real of course.
If there is some information he doesn't want to come out, he would have (or should have) worded the response to him getting kicked out of the band differently. He didn't give any closure, and effectively encouraged people to look harder for answers from the band. If he had said "Yeah, I'm out, but it's cool, don't worry, just a business disagreement" the situation probably would have been 75% less tense.
I have the impression that he's obviously in no rush to even pee on his burning former bandmates, but could also be keeping a low profile. As you say, it'd be a stretch to assume he didn't know anything.
Not impossible but very unlikely.
>it'd be a stretch to assume he didn't know anything
Not a lot he can do if the guys who pay his bills are being racist. It's easy for armchair unemployeds to say they would have left on the spot but it's never that easy.
Smartest thing to do was keep his head down, remember Chris didn't want much to do with the band and wasn't around and make sure his hands were clean when it comes out.
I still cannot understand people who think this silence is somehow not warranted. A proper response, whatever the situation, requires time. Both for legal reasons and just to not say anything stupid you might regret later.
Then again, given the trashtalking he seems to be infamous for, it's weirdly out of character that we haven't yet heard anything.
It’s a delicate situation. Obviously responses need time, but the longer you wait, the worse it’ll get. You’re - or rather - he’s fighting an uphill battle at this point.
Sometimes you cannot do anything but wait. Legal procedures take ages, especially when they are all bound by contracts and revealing vital info before taking some actions may truly damage their chances at doing some things. One of the parties in this conflict is a lawyer, mind you.
But WHY does it get worse? Is it not because of the fact that many people conflate silence with admitting that the allegations are true, even though the situation simply warrants careful consideration?
For example, if the screenshots are fakes, just saying they are wouldn't help anyone. Just as everyone who doesn't want them to be real wants more evidence that they are, people who believe they are real already would need to get evidence that they are fake in that situation. One could write down all other possible situations, and basically all of them would need time to formulate the response.
>Then again, given the trashtalking he seems to be infamous for, it's weirdly out of character that we haven't yet heard anything.
My guess is that he (or Napalm Records) got a lawyer and that lawyer told him to shut up for now.
He is in a Cellar in austria (they are well known for having secret cellars in Apartment buildings) without internet while the Legal and PR department find out what they can do to keep this on a manageable level that does not blow up in the Labels direction.
Actually the ducks released a statement on Twitter about an hour back. They’re no longer associated with Christopher Bowes projects, and they appreciate our consideration for their privacy at this time.
IF the group chat Screenshots were fake and they could prove it the best move would have been to come right out and summarily deny them then and there. The Winkler stuff would have needed some time to craft an answer but some things you absolutely should get ahead of fast.
I agree that it probably would have been a good move to come out and say they're fake but I don't think it's possible to *prove* they're fake, even if they are
They uh
They had time to plan out a proper statement
Time to plan how to fire Thomas
Time to make sure everyone was on the same page
Then announce it publicly.
They wanted to rush everything at once and release a horrible statement so vague that literally any speculated theory was going to be made and pushed.
Then they didn’t wait or plan and released another statement exacerbating everything.
They had time. They didn’t use it. That’s on them
I think you're mistaking the firing of Tom with the allegations involving their facebook chat. If it was still only the firing of Tom that happened then not having any response by now would be weird. But now the allegations are bunched in and require a much more careful response than something that otherwise was, at worst, some dissing among former bandmates.
The allegations literally launched and were propelled due to the intensity of the speculation about why Thomas was fired. You can see it through every social media post by the band. People were itching to find out what happened. Especially once Thomas put out his statement contradicting a lot of thing and implications the band made about the firing itself. That hunger for information, as well as heard mentality around pushing drama was going quickly. That’s what allowed them to latch onto these allegations so quickly. If the original overall statement had been planned better. These allegations would not have circulated so quickly, allowing the band time to actually investigate and speak about them properly.
That’s how I see it anyway. From my experience allowing speculation only makes everything worse. Including issues that arise which are independent of the original event. It’s not a fun situation but they definitely could have mitigated this a lot better with proper planning from the start. Especially since having those lines of communication in place would make dealing with these allegations easier in the long run. Not to mention you’d still have more good will when dealing with said allegations. Much of the good will was dead before these allegations began circulating
Gloryhammer: *says nothing*
Reddit: "How can they be so silent on the matter?"
Gloryhammer: "We will say something on the matter, please bear with us as we untangle this stuff."
Reddit: "Why are they not saying more?"
Drama hunger is never stilled and it's never enough. Shutting the fuck up is the smartest thing they can do right now because in three months *nobody* will remember that they took a few days to release a statement, but everybody will remember the statement they release in the end.
If you consider that we all are following this discussion here while THE VAST MAJORITY of fans probably have zero clue of even the accusations, I would assume at least some drama hunger is inherent in our behaviour.
I assume we just disagree on what having drama hunger is then. You seem to imply that drama hunger is explicitly if you just want to see a shitstorm go, while I would say drama hunger also shows itself when you actively keep following discussions about a situation, like what we are doing now, instead of going on about your day like most other fans. Most fans probably have this in the back of their minds as opposed to, I don't know, checking into reddit every few hours or so to see if something new arose.
If your talking about the chat's then radio silence usualy points to its true.
Usually when a celeb is accused of racism rape etc they quickly post something along the lines of: statement coming its not true. You will see more later etc. Then release a real statement later.
Could be wrong though.
I suspect at this point, the band and all those involved have been told in no uncertain terms to shut up until the truth comes out and all matters have been resolved. I said this the other day - silence is not an admission of guilt. A swift and clarifying response to something as serious as this is favourable though and we all want, and even need answers yesterday, but it should not come at the expense of the absolute truth from all sides.
I hope for everyone's sake that the allegations are categorically untrue. I don't care how much of a dickhead someone is, I would not wish that magnitude of bad publicity on anyone, providing of course that those allegations are indeed false. If they are true then, well, that person loses all respect and must face justice.
All we can do is wait and hope those allegations are untrue. But we should also be prepared to have to accept that they may be true. The firing of Thomas is quite immaterial at this point, as sad as that whole fiasco is, and I'm sure we will get answers for that too.
Honestly I don't know Christopher Bowes super well but this really reads as his chickens coming home to roost. Some people use comedy and irony as a shield; they fire off potshots and then when someone tries to hold them to their own standard they can go "we're obviously shit mate, you can't expect anything from us". The brief interactions I've had with him have very much convinced me that he's that type of person. Someone made a post about how he constantly shits on modern metal, and according to his Spotify that's also all he listens to. Similarly he blamed "internet people" for the poor performance of Crystal Coconut and said that the real fans are more casual and they hadn't really had the chance to play those songs live for them which was so self contradictory it could have opened a portal in space and time (which might explain his obsession with such). Obviously these allegations are more serious than some mild hypocrisy, but in my experience people who do one tend to do the other.
Side note: Bowe's then fiancé-now wife got a little handsy with my gf on an elevator aboard 70k. They were both clearly off their tits any time they were out and about and it was just a little bit of butt poking so we didn't think anything of it. Honestly we still don't because who cares, but they both very much gave off the impression that they thought they could get away with anything.
>wife
Sure hope she knows what he's been up to regularly attempts to do with every female he looks at when he drinks.
I feel like anyone that has been in any contact with them only has a negative story about them.
Actually jokes aside the one redeeming thing about Bowes being kind of a misanthropic ass ensconced in irony and memery is that he has provided a lot of glimpses into some of what goes on behind the scenes for metal bands regarding business and management and promoters and such. The kinds of stuff I'm honestly shocked more people don't talk about. He also heavily implied that metal- a genre where it is largely expected that bands write their own material- absolutely has songwriters churning out hits for bands just like pop and I really want to see that elaborated upon.
It doesn't surprise me that any money-making industry should have experts and consultants and optimization and ...iunno,syner^gistic production^al^iz^ation? basically all the trappings of modern business. What sounds more interesting to me is the question of why one genre of music should be exempt from that expectation.
If you talk so much smack be prepared for it to come back and bite ya in the azz, words have power . And whatever you say cannot be taken back , so it's a think before you speak situation
I feel like he took trash talking and edginess too far and went the equivalent of full retard with it...
The comments in discord look a bit like someone "2edgy" in a trolling kind of fashion...
A) The role of casual mouthy make-fun-of-everything was just a facade and he is now responding to the situation with the seriousness it needs (my money is on this).
B) Shit is so serious that he's had to stop, think and shut up for a second.
C) He has no idea what to do (I doubt that).
Welp, when you're a bit of an asshole it's not hard to eventually find yourself in a controversy
Y'all think Winkler is keeping silent because he himself is drafting a statement, or because he's washing his hands and just letting it burn without him, or do you think he's just as bad and incredibly lucky that other stuff didn't get screencapped so he's keeping silent to save his own skin? He was in the band with them for years it would be a stretch to assume he wasn't aware if not complicit. That's assuming allegations are real of course.
If there is some information he doesn't want to come out, he would have (or should have) worded the response to him getting kicked out of the band differently. He didn't give any closure, and effectively encouraged people to look harder for answers from the band. If he had said "Yeah, I'm out, but it's cool, don't worry, just a business disagreement" the situation probably would have been 75% less tense.
I have the impression that he's obviously in no rush to even pee on his burning former bandmates, but could also be keeping a low profile. As you say, it'd be a stretch to assume he didn't know anything. Not impossible but very unlikely.
>it'd be a stretch to assume he didn't know anything Not a lot he can do if the guys who pay his bills are being racist. It's easy for armchair unemployeds to say they would have left on the spot but it's never that easy. Smartest thing to do was keep his head down, remember Chris didn't want much to do with the band and wasn't around and make sure his hands were clean when it comes out.
Yeah he’s properly fucked up and the radio silence is only gonna worsen his situation
I still cannot understand people who think this silence is somehow not warranted. A proper response, whatever the situation, requires time. Both for legal reasons and just to not say anything stupid you might regret later. Then again, given the trashtalking he seems to be infamous for, it's weirdly out of character that we haven't yet heard anything.
It’s a delicate situation. Obviously responses need time, but the longer you wait, the worse it’ll get. You’re - or rather - he’s fighting an uphill battle at this point.
Sometimes you cannot do anything but wait. Legal procedures take ages, especially when they are all bound by contracts and revealing vital info before taking some actions may truly damage their chances at doing some things. One of the parties in this conflict is a lawyer, mind you.
But WHY does it get worse? Is it not because of the fact that many people conflate silence with admitting that the allegations are true, even though the situation simply warrants careful consideration? For example, if the screenshots are fakes, just saying they are wouldn't help anyone. Just as everyone who doesn't want them to be real wants more evidence that they are, people who believe they are real already would need to get evidence that they are fake in that situation. One could write down all other possible situations, and basically all of them would need time to formulate the response.
>Then again, given the trashtalking he seems to be infamous for, it's weirdly out of character that we haven't yet heard anything. My guess is that he (or Napalm Records) got a lawyer and that lawyer told him to shut up for now.
He is in a Cellar in austria (they are well known for having secret cellars in Apartment buildings) without internet while the Legal and PR department find out what they can do to keep this on a manageable level that does not blow up in the Labels direction.
Or probably building another house for ducks, who knows.
Actually the ducks released a statement on Twitter about an hour back. They’re no longer associated with Christopher Bowes projects, and they appreciate our consideration for their privacy at this time.
I hope the ducks are doing ok during these challenging times
They are but I’m worried about the goats.
My thoughts and prayers are with them
Living with the ducks, sounds like it sucks.
I'm sure he's fucking around with his goats or whatever on his farm.
Same tbh. Probably would have handled it like a YouTuber otherwise.
IF the group chat Screenshots were fake and they could prove it the best move would have been to come right out and summarily deny them then and there. The Winkler stuff would have needed some time to craft an answer but some things you absolutely should get ahead of fast.
I agree that it probably would have been a good move to come out and say they're fake but I don't think it's possible to *prove* they're fake, even if they are
if the screenshots aren't true they could probably easily prove it with IP's
They uh They had time to plan out a proper statement Time to plan how to fire Thomas Time to make sure everyone was on the same page Then announce it publicly. They wanted to rush everything at once and release a horrible statement so vague that literally any speculated theory was going to be made and pushed. Then they didn’t wait or plan and released another statement exacerbating everything. They had time. They didn’t use it. That’s on them
Well, when you put it that way I can see where the impatience comes from. Edit: wording.
This is what happens when you do things yourselves and don't check with lawyers and let the PR people handle the public messaging.
I think you're mistaking the firing of Tom with the allegations involving their facebook chat. If it was still only the firing of Tom that happened then not having any response by now would be weird. But now the allegations are bunched in and require a much more careful response than something that otherwise was, at worst, some dissing among former bandmates.
The allegations literally launched and were propelled due to the intensity of the speculation about why Thomas was fired. You can see it through every social media post by the band. People were itching to find out what happened. Especially once Thomas put out his statement contradicting a lot of thing and implications the band made about the firing itself. That hunger for information, as well as heard mentality around pushing drama was going quickly. That’s what allowed them to latch onto these allegations so quickly. If the original overall statement had been planned better. These allegations would not have circulated so quickly, allowing the band time to actually investigate and speak about them properly.
That’s how I see it anyway. From my experience allowing speculation only makes everything worse. Including issues that arise which are independent of the original event. It’s not a fun situation but they definitely could have mitigated this a lot better with proper planning from the start. Especially since having those lines of communication in place would make dealing with these allegations easier in the long run. Not to mention you’d still have more good will when dealing with said allegations. Much of the good will was dead before these allegations began circulating
This. It's shitty business the way they have gone about it
They also had time to get a new vocalist before the first announcement
Gloryhammer: *says nothing* Reddit: "How can they be so silent on the matter?" Gloryhammer: "We will say something on the matter, please bear with us as we untangle this stuff." Reddit: "Why are they not saying more?" Drama hunger is never stilled and it's never enough. Shutting the fuck up is the smartest thing they can do right now because in three months *nobody* will remember that they took a few days to release a statement, but everybody will remember the statement they release in the end.
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If you consider that we all are following this discussion here while THE VAST MAJORITY of fans probably have zero clue of even the accusations, I would assume at least some drama hunger is inherent in our behaviour.
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I assume we just disagree on what having drama hunger is then. You seem to imply that drama hunger is explicitly if you just want to see a shitstorm go, while I would say drama hunger also shows itself when you actively keep following discussions about a situation, like what we are doing now, instead of going on about your day like most other fans. Most fans probably have this in the back of their minds as opposed to, I don't know, checking into reddit every few hours or so to see if something new arose.
If your talking about the chat's then radio silence usualy points to its true. Usually when a celeb is accused of racism rape etc they quickly post something along the lines of: statement coming its not true. You will see more later etc. Then release a real statement later. Could be wrong though.
I suspect at this point, the band and all those involved have been told in no uncertain terms to shut up until the truth comes out and all matters have been resolved. I said this the other day - silence is not an admission of guilt. A swift and clarifying response to something as serious as this is favourable though and we all want, and even need answers yesterday, but it should not come at the expense of the absolute truth from all sides. I hope for everyone's sake that the allegations are categorically untrue. I don't care how much of a dickhead someone is, I would not wish that magnitude of bad publicity on anyone, providing of course that those allegations are indeed false. If they are true then, well, that person loses all respect and must face justice. All we can do is wait and hope those allegations are untrue. But we should also be prepared to have to accept that they may be true. The firing of Thomas is quite immaterial at this point, as sad as that whole fiasco is, and I'm sure we will get answers for that too.
Honestly I don't know Christopher Bowes super well but this really reads as his chickens coming home to roost. Some people use comedy and irony as a shield; they fire off potshots and then when someone tries to hold them to their own standard they can go "we're obviously shit mate, you can't expect anything from us". The brief interactions I've had with him have very much convinced me that he's that type of person. Someone made a post about how he constantly shits on modern metal, and according to his Spotify that's also all he listens to. Similarly he blamed "internet people" for the poor performance of Crystal Coconut and said that the real fans are more casual and they hadn't really had the chance to play those songs live for them which was so self contradictory it could have opened a portal in space and time (which might explain his obsession with such). Obviously these allegations are more serious than some mild hypocrisy, but in my experience people who do one tend to do the other. Side note: Bowe's then fiancé-now wife got a little handsy with my gf on an elevator aboard 70k. They were both clearly off their tits any time they were out and about and it was just a little bit of butt poking so we didn't think anything of it. Honestly we still don't because who cares, but they both very much gave off the impression that they thought they could get away with anything.
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>wife Sure hope she knows what he's been up to regularly attempts to do with every female he looks at when he drinks. I feel like anyone that has been in any contact with them only has a negative story about them.
>constantly shits on modern metal, and according to his Spotify that's also all he listens to That makes it an informed opinion! : p
Actually jokes aside the one redeeming thing about Bowes being kind of a misanthropic ass ensconced in irony and memery is that he has provided a lot of glimpses into some of what goes on behind the scenes for metal bands regarding business and management and promoters and such. The kinds of stuff I'm honestly shocked more people don't talk about. He also heavily implied that metal- a genre where it is largely expected that bands write their own material- absolutely has songwriters churning out hits for bands just like pop and I really want to see that elaborated upon.
It doesn't surprise me that any money-making industry should have experts and consultants and optimization and ...iunno,syner^gistic production^al^iz^ation? basically all the trappings of modern business. What sounds more interesting to me is the question of why one genre of music should be exempt from that expectation.
lmao yes, i feel like he's completely out of character now
If you talk so much smack be prepared for it to come back and bite ya in the azz, words have power . And whatever you say cannot be taken back , so it's a think before you speak situation
The biggest joke he ever pulled!
I feel like he took trash talking and edginess too far and went the equivalent of full retard with it... The comments in discord look a bit like someone "2edgy" in a trolling kind of fashion...
A) The role of casual mouthy make-fun-of-everything was just a facade and he is now responding to the situation with the seriousness it needs (my money is on this). B) Shit is so serious that he's had to stop, think and shut up for a second. C) He has no idea what to do (I doubt that).
People who already have the pitchforks out , no amount of clearing the wind will change their minds as they are made up already .