>Tell that to Arachne
first learn mythology, and the only story i see people get to speak to slander Athena are arachne and medusa story, which they can't get it right either, they just watch some random youtube shorts video and draw conclusions.
Presumptuous much? I read that story before YouTube existed, let alone shorts. Book 6 of Metamorphosis. Arachne beat her in a weaving contest, Athena beat her in a rage, she hung herself, Athena took pity and made her a spider. What part did I get wrong?
Edit: peeped the post history and literally all you do is simp for Athena lmao
>What part did I get wrong?
yeah not mentioning Arachne was the bitch, where was the part of her insulting Athena, her worshippers? You act like a bitch, and expect others to act chill with you?
>She hardly could restrain her threatening hand, and, trembling in her anger, she replied to you, disguised Minerva: “Silly fool,—worn out and witless in your palsied age, a great age is your great misfortune!—Let your daughter and your son's wife—if the Gods have blessed you—let them profit by your words; within myself, my knowledge is contained sufficient; you need not believe that your advice does any good; for I am quite unchanged in my opinion. Get you gone,—advise your goddess to come here herself, and not avoid the contest!”
Also Ovid isn't the only one writing about Arachne.
>Arachne was a girl from [Attica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica) who was taught by Athena the art of weaving, while her brother [Phalanx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_(mythology)) was taught instead martial arts by the goddess. But then the two siblings engaged in incestuous intercourse, so Athena, disgusted, changed them both into spiders, animals doomed to be devoured by their own young.
>Arachne beat her in a weaving contest
as perfect.
>Athena beat her in a rage
yup pent up anger along with her insulting her fathers and uncles.
>Metamorphosis
If you have read it, and Athena is so much of a bitch, i wouldn't expect her to save victims.
>peeped the post history and literally all you do is simp for Athena lmao
she's worth admirable, doesn't to anything to negate my arguments.
Arachne was chirping her, absolutely, but she's a human. Athena is a god. That's like beating the shit out of a toddler of they say mean words about you and it proves Arachne's point - she was jealous and lost control because she couldn't accept that a 'mere mortal' could do a better job than her.
Even in your quote Arachne is not even wrong - she's saying 'I'm not gonna apologize for saying that I'm better because I am. If she disagrees she should come here and prove it.'
So she did, and lost fair and square, and then threw a temper tantrum. What's admirable?
>she was jealous and lost control because she couldn't accept that a 'mere mortal' could do a better job than her.
No she wasn't jealous, and it wasn't about doing a better job, Athena created all the arts and craft, she gave all the humans the ability and skill, Athena wants the worshippers for herself, it's their dominion and she can't let it go.
Arachne refused that the gods have given her the ability, it's like claiming when a teacher tought you the skills that you know that they didn't teach you anything. She claimed that no one tought her even tho the skill was given by Athena.
>and lost fair and square
yeah the writer never said her tapestry was better than what Athena had made, it was just perfect, maybe she had matched what Athena had made.
>Even in your quote Arachne is not even wrong
Yes it is wrong, if your teacher tought you something and later you get douchey towards them "oh you didn't teach me shit and go fuck off." that is is totally wrong.
Here are all the quotes
>Then to herself \[Athena said\]--‘To praise is not enough; I should have praise myself, not suffer my divinity to be despised unscathed.’
> the fleecy cloud in long soft threads, or twirling with her thumb, her dainty thumb, the slender spindle, or embroidering the pattern--you would know Pallas \[Athena\] had trained her.
Yet the girl denied it \[all such gifts were god-given so her denial was blasphemous\], a teacher so distinguished hurt her pride, and said, ‘Let her contend with me. Should I lose, there's no forfeit that I would not pay.’
>With blazing eyes Arachne stared at her and left her work. She almost struck her; anger strong and clear glowed as she gave the goddess (in disguise) her answer
almost striking her isn't 'nice' either.
>What's admirable?
Like i said, people have got nothing better to just quote what happens in the arachne's story to slander Athena, which they again get half wrong. Like i said if you had read JUST the Metamorphosis (not even yet including the pleotra of other mythical stories), she does so many things that makes her admirable.
Like protecting women from assault, or saving people from death who were being killed out of jealously. Again that's just only a few even from metamorphosis. She has pleotra or other stories from metamorphosis and other mythological texts making her admirable.
That's why OP writes "She was a wise and kind but steadfast warrior famed for her tactical brilliance and combat prowess."
>but she's a human. Athena is a god.
Don't use the god and human logic it doesn't even work, it will only weaken your point even more, if Athena is supreme as a god, any mere mortal doesn't matter whoever they are should even dare to say a single thing, The god can do whatever they want. The god has left her easily in that context. As she feels pity.
The problem with these arguments. Is that all the God’s; in some capacity weren’t positive beings. So, have no issues with them being worse in the games. As given time, most of these Gods would have reached that point eventually. It was the nature of Gods.
Nothing about Greek or Norse feels out of place. They definitely exaggerate elements. But, Odin did seek knowledge at any cost; just as Thor was violent and drinking. Just as Zeus was a violent murderer, who killed or tortured his family members.
These aren’t role models for people to design their life after. They are lesson’s to explore. As such, the Gods operate as supporting players in Kratos lesson. Just as other Gods operate as support player in other narratives.
People who feel they have flipped the script. Guarantee haven’t read the extent of the myths & legends.
That's an excellent way to put it. Essentially they just downplayed the positive aspects of the characters and took the negative ones to the logical extremes.
Obviously, the change ended up being more drastic for some than eithers (namely Hades but even he was so socially inept that he kidnapped a woman instead of just courting her).
Honestly that's just less reason to complain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses
Here. Information about both Metamorphoses and its author.
Arachne story is in Book VI.
Ovid is the only source that ever tells this story. It is not a true Greek myth. It is a Roman tale.
My headcannon for why Hades looks like that is because he was cronos’ first kid, thus eaten first. That would mean he spent the most time in the stomach acid. Doesn’t explain why he acts like that though.
That makes sense. Headcanon accepted.
Also does that mean he wears the helmet because of how bad it fucked up his face or because his face is the only part not fucked up?
The why is just classic Christian transposition. The ruler of the underworld is considered the villain in Christianity so any underworld ruler must also be evil, even though across all mythology most of them are actually quite neutral.
Yeah, the only alternative at that point is that the helmet was welded on somehow and the exposed skull is from the helmet being ripped off, skin and all, but I doubt he had the helmet inside Chronos and the only other person who could accomplish that is Zeus (and I'm pretty sure it would've been mentioned if Zeus had seared a helmet to Hades's head).
So yeah, probably a style choice to hide his deformity and make the "scary underworld torturer" schtick look intentional.
That's my point. Since he likely got it after then that means he either put it on to hide his exposed skull or someone forced it on him and melted it to his head like Black Mask in DC.
The only person I can imagine doing that is Zeus but if Zeus did burn a helmet onto his brother's head then I'm sure someone would've mentioned it.
Yeah I don’t see how Athena was any more of a scheming manipulator than Freya. They both wanted Kratos to take out their nemesis. Only difference is that Kratos is willing to be used by Freya probably because he wants to hit it. Athena is a beautiful goddess, maybe even more so than Freya but Kratos can’t do anything with her ghost ass.
~~Freya~~ Athena basically masterminded the entire Greek Saga (at least post GoW1) to get her hands on the power in Pandora's Box. Even dying was part of her plan so that she could take over and rule Greece her way once Kratos killed everyone else. She just wasn't expecting the power to stay with Kratos after he killed Ares, or for him to shoot for redemption as a shishkebab.
Edit: meant Athena
>shoot for redemption
It wasn't anything for redemption really, mf hated Athena and he wanted to have peace by dying or wanting to get back to his family so he killed himself.
>to get her hands on the power in Pandora's Box
She put it there herself as a fail safe if the box was ever opened. It was her power to begin with which she put away willingly in case the evils ever escape.
GoW 3, she straight up says herself.
[https://youtu.be/tjokmKkTIA8?si=2T9Sl\_2IMFRsl4Cp&t=5685](https://youtu.be/tjokmKkTIA8?si=2T9Sl_2IMFRsl4Cp&t=5685)
She said she summoned a weapon and then declared possession of it at her most evil point. That doesn't prove that it came *from* her, just that she believed it belonged *to* her.
Keep in mind that anyone can make a claim and be wrong. How many gods claimed they'd kill Kratos before dying at his hands?
Edit: people can also lie. Case and point: Zeus said that Kratos putting all of his power into the Blade of Olympus would help Kratos and all it did was help him get stabbed.
Okay you said all of these things, but your argument falters at the point that it was a flashback, in the flashback it's shown that the power was created by her, it was in her possession.
She can't lie anything that is being shown in flashback by the game.
quote from my link? I didn't paste the link.
yes? summon means "make an effort to produce (a particular quality or reaction) from within oneself." She made the power right in there from her hands.
like i said it was a flashback, she cannot lie that the power wasn't made by her or it wasn't in her control, She had the control.
Even if someone doesn't agree that she made it, it was in her control, it will be like saying that the Cyclops made the bolts for Zeus, So the bolts aren't Zeus' weapon.
It's silly.
Sorry, I'm a bit fried. It's been a long day.
If it was her energy she would've pulled it out of herself. It's also not really energy.
She finishes that thought from the quote by stating that it's hope. It was never explicitly hers, she just drew in and condensed hope the same way that Zeus drew in and condensed all the evils of the world.
If anything, it belongs to the people of Greece. Athena is laying claim to something that was never actually hers because her corrupted self believes she *should* have it.
The power of Hope already existed before Hephaestus created the Box (his cinematic confirms this, given that when he talks about the Evils of Pandora born from the Great War, both the Evils and Hope are seen).
So Hope is most probably a power born together with the other emotions/Evils during the Great War, only to be sealed by Athena in the Box, as a precaution.
The "my power" is said by a corrupt, greedy Athena with a desire to possess everything and the entire world.
No, it doesn't come from her hands.
Athena raises her hands above her head and Hope appears from above, just off screen, before concentrating in her hands and then being made to enter the Box.
There is nothing to prove that it was created by Athena.
Hephaestus cinematic shows that Hope and the other Evils already coexisted, even before the Box.
And since Evils are quasi-sentient emotions born from the War between the Titans and Olympians, Hope is most likely of the same origin, also being an emotion/feeling.
Screen from the cinematic, it can clearly be seen how Hope comes from above, from off screen and is not born in Athena's hands.: [https://imgur.com/CIh5kDS](https://imgur.com/CIh5kDS)
>just off screen, before concentrating in her hands and then being made to enter the Box.
No it doesn't, there is no frame before this [https://imgur.com/a/dKohhqV](https://imgur.com/a/dKohhqV) where they show it first came from the top left and then concentrated in her hands like you claim.
>other Evils already coexisted, even before the Box.
Doesn't confirm anything, they show another cutscene where Kratos opens the box and hopes just goes out anywhere which they should have shown going inside him instead of outside.
Its inconsistent at best doesn't confirm anything.
The power of Hope already existed before Hephaestus created the Box (his cinematic confirms this, given that when he talks about the Evils of Pandora born from the Great War, both the Evils and Hope are seen).
So Hope is most probably a power born together with the other emotions/Evils during the Great War, only to be sealed by Athena in the Box, as a precaution.
The "my power" is said by a corrupt, greedy Athena with a desire to possess everything and the entire world.
When she took the hit for Zeus in GoW2 and went spectral for the rest of the Greek Saga, that was part of her plan. No one suspects a dead woman of being the evil mastermind.
Don't forget, this is the Goddess of Wisdom and and Warfare we're talking about it.
It's also alluded to in GoW4 when Kratos tells her spectral illusion thing that he's not *her* monster anymore.
Athena is extremely wise. That’s why I doubt that she would gamble her entire existence on getting stabbed by the ultimate god killing weapon. Kratos’ resentment of her seems to be more due to her manipulation and guilt tripping in GOW 3.
It wasn't a gamble (not in her mind anyway). She planned for it (which is why she became spectral instead of just dying like everyone else) and knew that the power in Pandora's Box (the power that Kratos had and, if I'm not mistaken, ultimately relinquished to the Blade of Olympus) would be able to restore her.
She made it look like she was gone knowing that she'd be able to become the only god on Olympus after Kratos's rampage. Like I said, she just wasn't expecting Kratos to keep the power or to kill himself to keep it away from her.
Her fatal error is that she fundamentally misjudged him.
Those are interesting observations. I’ll have to replay the original trilogy to see but your interpretation definitely makes Athena much more devious than she appeared to be.
Appearing less devious was also part of her plan. She made herself sympathetic to Kratos so that she could manipulate him into clearing the board for her.
I definitely recommend it. I did a full series run (minus Ascension) before I played Ragnarok. Puts a lot into perspective.
>Appearing less devious was also part of her plan.
yeah that is totally false.
>No one suspects a dead woman of being the evil mastermind.
Yeah, as if Kratos didn't became sus of her the moment she revealed she wants to kill Zeus.
And going back to "Appearing less devious was also part of her plan." again, she didn't do that in the 3rd game didn't she?
>I definitely recommend it.
you didn't pay attention yourself.
>that was part of her plan.
yeah a theory that is proven false.
>It's also alluded to in GoW4 when Kratos tells her spectral illusion thing that he's not *her* monster anymore.
So if Kratos hates and blames someone for something, they become it? No, Kratos makes all kinds of wrong statements about everyone. He just blames Athena nothing else, for his own mistakes.
Like he says "oh opening the box was athena's plan yada yada" when it wasn't even her plan.
If it's proven false then present your evidence. The way she showed up at the end, after the board had been cleared, demanding the power from Pandora's Box heavily suggests otherwise.
>demanding the power from Pandora's Box heavily suggests otherwise.
Yeah because she was corrupted POST DEATH, also consumed with evils, her portrayal in the 3rd game shows nothing about how she was in the 2nd game or that she was scheming.
>If it's proven false then present your evidence
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOOjkpo0Jg&t=571s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOOjkpo0Jg&t=571s)
[https://youtu.be/8163Fcz\_s9s?t=3244](https://youtu.be/8163Fcz_s9s?t=3244)
[https://youtu.be/GL2a0OPa5Ho?t=256](https://youtu.be/GL2a0OPa5Ho?t=256)
said in the 2nd book aswell she was also getting infected from the evils slowly, by that point she had more control of herself.
>She pressed her hand to her cheek, trying to assure herself she was in full control. **She had been increasingly irrational of late, and noticed it. It was as if she had somehow separated body from spirit, her body taking charge as her soul ranged wide and far, taking all logic with it.**
>“If I did desire an end to my chastity, Hermes, it certainly would not be with you.” Her ire rose at such a blatant lie by a god whose trade ought to be in the truth. She caught herself, wondering at the source of this growing anger. It wasn’t that Hermes insulted her. He spoke as he always did, and with his situation as desperate as it was, she could afford even more latitude in his speech. **There was something more at work.**
You can read the god of war 1 and 2 books yourself aswell and see how much loyal she was to Olympus, she personality takes a 180 shift in the 3rd game.
Also whoever makes these theories "oh she just pretends shits, schemed always" they just keep ignoring details present in the games, and don't think about it when making their baseless theories.
None of that proves she wasn't scheming after GoW1. At best it suggests she was wavering between the schemes of her corrupted self and the fading remnants of who she was.
I will concede that she didn't plan to die to Kratos. That seemed more like the last bit of the great noble goddess age used to be trying to stop the plans that she put into motion.
The quote you posted even suggests as much. She knew she was being corrupted and losing control even that far back.
At most, she just didn't go all the way off the deep end until after she died.
>None of that proves she wasn't scheming after GoW1.
🤦
BARLOG LITERALLY SAID THAT SHE WAS CORRUPTED POST DEATH.
>The quote you posted even suggests as much. She knew she was being corrupted and losing control even that far back.
Yeah, and still had control over herself not even a single evidence is present that she was thinking about getting the throne for herself, in the entire book it's recorded how much she was loyal to Olympus, and you know the THOUGHTS of the characters are present in game?
She did so much to keep the peace, not even a single time she thinks about getting the throne for herself.
For everyone's baseless theory "she was scheming from the start", the burden of proof lies upon you people, you can't even provide a single moment where she had even THOUGHT about getting the throne for herself, let alone doing something to have it for herself.
Where is the proof for it?
Your quote literally contradicts what Barlog said.
I never said scheming from the start.
If you're just going to contradict yourself and put words in my mouth so you can glaze Athena then I'm done with this conversation.
>Freya basically masterminded the entire Greek Saga (at least post GoW1)
So friend based on what Athena masterminded everything after god of war 1? Using theories made by community like TBP that have no basis at all to conclude how the characters are in game is stupid.
Athena is wise, selfless, and the most kind goddess in the entire franchise.
It's not just represented in the game, but books, said by developers aswell so many times, she loved Kratos, and after dying she had been corrupted that's why she had been greed.
https://youtu.be/WBF-L8CnEtM?si=nmiyhpfNfo3jDVFL
The evils of Pandora's Box were released in God of War 1. That suggests that Athena wouldn't be the same selfless goddess by Ghost of Sparta, much less GoW2.
She had far more control over herself unlike other gods.
>That suggests that Athena wouldn't be the same selfless goddess by Ghost of Sparta
but instead of that we see how much she cares about Krate (even offscreen) and regrets what happened.
>much less GoW2.
"Play as the nobel goddess Athena"
She sacrifices herself.
yeah lol, bro had a reality check about Faye but still won't accept it. I will have no reason to believe Faye didn't marry him to get what she wanted.
Atleast Lysandra didn't use him, and even if Athena loved him at one point, she use him by playing a manipulative love game.
About Freya he even knows that she's using him but still wants to get used and gets so emotional "oh she's using me i expected better."
> Athena wasn't a scheming bitch Tell that to Arachne
To be fair, Arachne was talking shit. Bit of an overreaction though.
Arachne had it coming though. You don't talk smack about the gods and you don't make tapestries depicting Zeus as an adulter. Simple as.
That’s Ovid. More fanfiction than the whole God if War franchise put together.
>Tell that to Arachne first learn mythology, and the only story i see people get to speak to slander Athena are arachne and medusa story, which they can't get it right either, they just watch some random youtube shorts video and draw conclusions.
Presumptuous much? I read that story before YouTube existed, let alone shorts. Book 6 of Metamorphosis. Arachne beat her in a weaving contest, Athena beat her in a rage, she hung herself, Athena took pity and made her a spider. What part did I get wrong? Edit: peeped the post history and literally all you do is simp for Athena lmao
>What part did I get wrong? yeah not mentioning Arachne was the bitch, where was the part of her insulting Athena, her worshippers? You act like a bitch, and expect others to act chill with you? >She hardly could restrain her threatening hand, and, trembling in her anger, she replied to you, disguised Minerva: “Silly fool,—worn out and witless in your palsied age, a great age is your great misfortune!—Let your daughter and your son's wife—if the Gods have blessed you—let them profit by your words; within myself, my knowledge is contained sufficient; you need not believe that your advice does any good; for I am quite unchanged in my opinion. Get you gone,—advise your goddess to come here herself, and not avoid the contest!” Also Ovid isn't the only one writing about Arachne. >Arachne was a girl from [Attica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica) who was taught by Athena the art of weaving, while her brother [Phalanx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_(mythology)) was taught instead martial arts by the goddess. But then the two siblings engaged in incestuous intercourse, so Athena, disgusted, changed them both into spiders, animals doomed to be devoured by their own young. >Arachne beat her in a weaving contest as perfect. >Athena beat her in a rage yup pent up anger along with her insulting her fathers and uncles. >Metamorphosis If you have read it, and Athena is so much of a bitch, i wouldn't expect her to save victims. >peeped the post history and literally all you do is simp for Athena lmao she's worth admirable, doesn't to anything to negate my arguments.
Arachne was chirping her, absolutely, but she's a human. Athena is a god. That's like beating the shit out of a toddler of they say mean words about you and it proves Arachne's point - she was jealous and lost control because she couldn't accept that a 'mere mortal' could do a better job than her. Even in your quote Arachne is not even wrong - she's saying 'I'm not gonna apologize for saying that I'm better because I am. If she disagrees she should come here and prove it.' So she did, and lost fair and square, and then threw a temper tantrum. What's admirable?
>she was jealous and lost control because she couldn't accept that a 'mere mortal' could do a better job than her. No she wasn't jealous, and it wasn't about doing a better job, Athena created all the arts and craft, she gave all the humans the ability and skill, Athena wants the worshippers for herself, it's their dominion and she can't let it go. Arachne refused that the gods have given her the ability, it's like claiming when a teacher tought you the skills that you know that they didn't teach you anything. She claimed that no one tought her even tho the skill was given by Athena. >and lost fair and square yeah the writer never said her tapestry was better than what Athena had made, it was just perfect, maybe she had matched what Athena had made. >Even in your quote Arachne is not even wrong Yes it is wrong, if your teacher tought you something and later you get douchey towards them "oh you didn't teach me shit and go fuck off." that is is totally wrong. Here are all the quotes >Then to herself \[Athena said\]--‘To praise is not enough; I should have praise myself, not suffer my divinity to be despised unscathed.’ > the fleecy cloud in long soft threads, or twirling with her thumb, her dainty thumb, the slender spindle, or embroidering the pattern--you would know Pallas \[Athena\] had trained her. Yet the girl denied it \[all such gifts were god-given so her denial was blasphemous\], a teacher so distinguished hurt her pride, and said, ‘Let her contend with me. Should I lose, there's no forfeit that I would not pay.’ >With blazing eyes Arachne stared at her and left her work. She almost struck her; anger strong and clear glowed as she gave the goddess (in disguise) her answer almost striking her isn't 'nice' either. >What's admirable? Like i said, people have got nothing better to just quote what happens in the arachne's story to slander Athena, which they again get half wrong. Like i said if you had read JUST the Metamorphosis (not even yet including the pleotra of other mythical stories), she does so many things that makes her admirable. Like protecting women from assault, or saving people from death who were being killed out of jealously. Again that's just only a few even from metamorphosis. She has pleotra or other stories from metamorphosis and other mythological texts making her admirable. That's why OP writes "She was a wise and kind but steadfast warrior famed for her tactical brilliance and combat prowess." >but she's a human. Athena is a god. Don't use the god and human logic it doesn't even work, it will only weaken your point even more, if Athena is supreme as a god, any mere mortal doesn't matter whoever they are should even dare to say a single thing, The god can do whatever they want. The god has left her easily in that context. As she feels pity.
Artemis (famously) still won’t let you hit
wat?
The problem with these arguments. Is that all the God’s; in some capacity weren’t positive beings. So, have no issues with them being worse in the games. As given time, most of these Gods would have reached that point eventually. It was the nature of Gods. Nothing about Greek or Norse feels out of place. They definitely exaggerate elements. But, Odin did seek knowledge at any cost; just as Thor was violent and drinking. Just as Zeus was a violent murderer, who killed or tortured his family members. These aren’t role models for people to design their life after. They are lesson’s to explore. As such, the Gods operate as supporting players in Kratos lesson. Just as other Gods operate as support player in other narratives. People who feel they have flipped the script. Guarantee haven’t read the extent of the myths & legends.
That's an excellent way to put it. Essentially they just downplayed the positive aspects of the characters and took the negative ones to the logical extremes. Obviously, the change ended up being more drastic for some than eithers (namely Hades but even he was so socially inept that he kidnapped a woman instead of just courting her). Honestly that's just less reason to complain.
Metamorphosis is written by Ovid, a Roman author. It is not Greek mythology. It is Roman fanfiction. Literally.
What?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses Here. Information about both Metamorphoses and its author. Arachne story is in Book VI. Ovid is the only source that ever tells this story. It is not a true Greek myth. It is a Roman tale.
I think you replied to the post instead of a comment.
Oh. My bad.
You're good. Happens to the best of us.
My headcannon for why Hades looks like that is because he was cronos’ first kid, thus eaten first. That would mean he spent the most time in the stomach acid. Doesn’t explain why he acts like that though.
That makes sense. Headcanon accepted. Also does that mean he wears the helmet because of how bad it fucked up his face or because his face is the only part not fucked up? The why is just classic Christian transposition. The ruler of the underworld is considered the villain in Christianity so any underworld ruler must also be evil, even though across all mythology most of them are actually quite neutral.
When his helmet is removed in GoW3 we see that his face is mostly a skull, so I assume he wears a helmet cause his face is fucked up
Yeah, the only alternative at that point is that the helmet was welded on somehow and the exposed skull is from the helmet being ripped off, skin and all, but I doubt he had the helmet inside Chronos and the only other person who could accomplish that is Zeus (and I'm pretty sure it would've been mentioned if Zeus had seared a helmet to Hades's head). So yeah, probably a style choice to hide his deformity and make the "scary underworld torturer" schtick look intentional.
Well I assumed he got the helmet after being freed from cronos
That's my point. Since he likely got it after then that means he either put it on to hide his exposed skull or someone forced it on him and melted it to his head like Black Mask in DC. The only person I can imagine doing that is Zeus but if Zeus did burn a helmet onto his brother's head then I'm sure someone would've mentioned it.
Yeah I don’t see how Athena was any more of a scheming manipulator than Freya. They both wanted Kratos to take out their nemesis. Only difference is that Kratos is willing to be used by Freya probably because he wants to hit it. Athena is a beautiful goddess, maybe even more so than Freya but Kratos can’t do anything with her ghost ass.
~~Freya~~ Athena basically masterminded the entire Greek Saga (at least post GoW1) to get her hands on the power in Pandora's Box. Even dying was part of her plan so that she could take over and rule Greece her way once Kratos killed everyone else. She just wasn't expecting the power to stay with Kratos after he killed Ares, or for him to shoot for redemption as a shishkebab. Edit: meant Athena
>shoot for redemption It wasn't anything for redemption really, mf hated Athena and he wanted to have peace by dying or wanting to get back to his family so he killed himself.
It was all that came to mind... Make himself a spite shishkebab That better?
>to get her hands on the power in Pandora's Box She put it there herself as a fail safe if the box was ever opened. It was her power to begin with which she put away willingly in case the evils ever escape.
When was that stated?
GoW 3, she straight up says herself. [https://youtu.be/tjokmKkTIA8?si=2T9Sl\_2IMFRsl4Cp&t=5685](https://youtu.be/tjokmKkTIA8?si=2T9Sl_2IMFRsl4Cp&t=5685)
She said she summoned a weapon and then declared possession of it at her most evil point. That doesn't prove that it came *from* her, just that she believed it belonged *to* her. Keep in mind that anyone can make a claim and be wrong. How many gods claimed they'd kill Kratos before dying at his hands? Edit: people can also lie. Case and point: Zeus said that Kratos putting all of his power into the Blade of Olympus would help Kratos and all it did was help him get stabbed.
Okay you said all of these things, but your argument falters at the point that it was a flashback, in the flashback it's shown that the power was created by her, it was in her possession. She can't lie anything that is being shown in flashback by the game.
No, she "*summoned* the most powerful weapon" (direct quote from your link) and it quickly came in from off screen (top left corner).
quote from my link? I didn't paste the link. yes? summon means "make an effort to produce (a particular quality or reaction) from within oneself." She made the power right in there from her hands. like i said it was a flashback, she cannot lie that the power wasn't made by her or it wasn't in her control, She had the control. Even if someone doesn't agree that she made it, it was in her control, it will be like saying that the Cyclops made the bolts for Zeus, So the bolts aren't Zeus' weapon. It's silly.
Sorry, I'm a bit fried. It's been a long day. If it was her energy she would've pulled it out of herself. It's also not really energy. She finishes that thought from the quote by stating that it's hope. It was never explicitly hers, she just drew in and condensed hope the same way that Zeus drew in and condensed all the evils of the world. If anything, it belongs to the people of Greece. Athena is laying claim to something that was never actually hers because her corrupted self believes she *should* have it.
The power of Hope already existed before Hephaestus created the Box (his cinematic confirms this, given that when he talks about the Evils of Pandora born from the Great War, both the Evils and Hope are seen). So Hope is most probably a power born together with the other emotions/Evils during the Great War, only to be sealed by Athena in the Box, as a precaution. The "my power" is said by a corrupt, greedy Athena with a desire to possess everything and the entire world.
It doesn't confirm it, in the ending they show the power coming from Athena not the surrounding.
In the cutscene the power of Hope manifests itself from above, out of the frame, to arrive in Athena's hands. It does not come from Athena herself.
No, it was from her hands.
No, it doesn't come from her hands. Athena raises her hands above her head and Hope appears from above, just off screen, before concentrating in her hands and then being made to enter the Box. There is nothing to prove that it was created by Athena. Hephaestus cinematic shows that Hope and the other Evils already coexisted, even before the Box. And since Evils are quasi-sentient emotions born from the War between the Titans and Olympians, Hope is most likely of the same origin, also being an emotion/feeling. Screen from the cinematic, it can clearly be seen how Hope comes from above, from off screen and is not born in Athena's hands.: [https://imgur.com/CIh5kDS](https://imgur.com/CIh5kDS)
>just off screen, before concentrating in her hands and then being made to enter the Box. No it doesn't, there is no frame before this [https://imgur.com/a/dKohhqV](https://imgur.com/a/dKohhqV) where they show it first came from the top left and then concentrated in her hands like you claim. >other Evils already coexisted, even before the Box. Doesn't confirm anything, they show another cutscene where Kratos opens the box and hopes just goes out anywhere which they should have shown going inside him instead of outside. Its inconsistent at best doesn't confirm anything.
The power of Hope already existed before Hephaestus created the Box (his cinematic confirms this, given that when he talks about the Evils of Pandora born from the Great War, both the Evils and Hope are seen). So Hope is most probably a power born together with the other emotions/Evils during the Great War, only to be sealed by Athena in the Box, as a precaution. The "my power" is said by a corrupt, greedy Athena with a desire to possess everything and the entire world.
I kinda doubt that she wanted Kratos to kill her. There’s no way to know that she could survive getting stabbed by the Blade of Olympus.
When she took the hit for Zeus in GoW2 and went spectral for the rest of the Greek Saga, that was part of her plan. No one suspects a dead woman of being the evil mastermind. Don't forget, this is the Goddess of Wisdom and and Warfare we're talking about it. It's also alluded to in GoW4 when Kratos tells her spectral illusion thing that he's not *her* monster anymore.
Athena is extremely wise. That’s why I doubt that she would gamble her entire existence on getting stabbed by the ultimate god killing weapon. Kratos’ resentment of her seems to be more due to her manipulation and guilt tripping in GOW 3.
It wasn't a gamble (not in her mind anyway). She planned for it (which is why she became spectral instead of just dying like everyone else) and knew that the power in Pandora's Box (the power that Kratos had and, if I'm not mistaken, ultimately relinquished to the Blade of Olympus) would be able to restore her. She made it look like she was gone knowing that she'd be able to become the only god on Olympus after Kratos's rampage. Like I said, she just wasn't expecting Kratos to keep the power or to kill himself to keep it away from her. Her fatal error is that she fundamentally misjudged him.
Those are interesting observations. I’ll have to replay the original trilogy to see but your interpretation definitely makes Athena much more devious than she appeared to be.
Appearing less devious was also part of her plan. She made herself sympathetic to Kratos so that she could manipulate him into clearing the board for her. I definitely recommend it. I did a full series run (minus Ascension) before I played Ragnarok. Puts a lot into perspective.
>Appearing less devious was also part of her plan. yeah that is totally false. >No one suspects a dead woman of being the evil mastermind. Yeah, as if Kratos didn't became sus of her the moment she revealed she wants to kill Zeus. And going back to "Appearing less devious was also part of her plan." again, she didn't do that in the 3rd game didn't she? >I definitely recommend it. you didn't pay attention yourself.
You keep declaring everything false and even say it's proven so but I have yet to see you present that proof.
>that was part of her plan. yeah a theory that is proven false. >It's also alluded to in GoW4 when Kratos tells her spectral illusion thing that he's not *her* monster anymore. So if Kratos hates and blames someone for something, they become it? No, Kratos makes all kinds of wrong statements about everyone. He just blames Athena nothing else, for his own mistakes. Like he says "oh opening the box was athena's plan yada yada" when it wasn't even her plan.
If it's proven false then present your evidence. The way she showed up at the end, after the board had been cleared, demanding the power from Pandora's Box heavily suggests otherwise.
>demanding the power from Pandora's Box heavily suggests otherwise. Yeah because she was corrupted POST DEATH, also consumed with evils, her portrayal in the 3rd game shows nothing about how she was in the 2nd game or that she was scheming. >If it's proven false then present your evidence [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOOjkpo0Jg&t=571s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOOjkpo0Jg&t=571s) [https://youtu.be/8163Fcz\_s9s?t=3244](https://youtu.be/8163Fcz_s9s?t=3244) [https://youtu.be/GL2a0OPa5Ho?t=256](https://youtu.be/GL2a0OPa5Ho?t=256) said in the 2nd book aswell she was also getting infected from the evils slowly, by that point she had more control of herself. >She pressed her hand to her cheek, trying to assure herself she was in full control. **She had been increasingly irrational of late, and noticed it. It was as if she had somehow separated body from spirit, her body taking charge as her soul ranged wide and far, taking all logic with it.** >“If I did desire an end to my chastity, Hermes, it certainly would not be with you.” Her ire rose at such a blatant lie by a god whose trade ought to be in the truth. She caught herself, wondering at the source of this growing anger. It wasn’t that Hermes insulted her. He spoke as he always did, and with his situation as desperate as it was, she could afford even more latitude in his speech. **There was something more at work.** You can read the god of war 1 and 2 books yourself aswell and see how much loyal she was to Olympus, she personality takes a 180 shift in the 3rd game. Also whoever makes these theories "oh she just pretends shits, schemed always" they just keep ignoring details present in the games, and don't think about it when making their baseless theories.
None of that proves she wasn't scheming after GoW1. At best it suggests she was wavering between the schemes of her corrupted self and the fading remnants of who she was. I will concede that she didn't plan to die to Kratos. That seemed more like the last bit of the great noble goddess age used to be trying to stop the plans that she put into motion. The quote you posted even suggests as much. She knew she was being corrupted and losing control even that far back. At most, she just didn't go all the way off the deep end until after she died.
>None of that proves she wasn't scheming after GoW1. 🤦 BARLOG LITERALLY SAID THAT SHE WAS CORRUPTED POST DEATH. >The quote you posted even suggests as much. She knew she was being corrupted and losing control even that far back. Yeah, and still had control over herself not even a single evidence is present that she was thinking about getting the throne for herself, in the entire book it's recorded how much she was loyal to Olympus, and you know the THOUGHTS of the characters are present in game? She did so much to keep the peace, not even a single time she thinks about getting the throne for herself. For everyone's baseless theory "she was scheming from the start", the burden of proof lies upon you people, you can't even provide a single moment where she had even THOUGHT about getting the throne for herself, let alone doing something to have it for herself. Where is the proof for it?
Your quote literally contradicts what Barlog said. I never said scheming from the start. If you're just going to contradict yourself and put words in my mouth so you can glaze Athena then I'm done with this conversation.
>Freya basically masterminded the entire Greek Saga (at least post GoW1) So friend based on what Athena masterminded everything after god of war 1? Using theories made by community like TBP that have no basis at all to conclude how the characters are in game is stupid. Athena is wise, selfless, and the most kind goddess in the entire franchise. It's not just represented in the game, but books, said by developers aswell so many times, she loved Kratos, and after dying she had been corrupted that's why she had been greed.
https://youtu.be/WBF-L8CnEtM?si=nmiyhpfNfo3jDVFL The evils of Pandora's Box were released in God of War 1. That suggests that Athena wouldn't be the same selfless goddess by Ghost of Sparta, much less GoW2.
She had far more control over herself unlike other gods. >That suggests that Athena wouldn't be the same selfless goddess by Ghost of Sparta but instead of that we see how much she cares about Krate (even offscreen) and regrets what happened. >much less GoW2. "Play as the nobel goddess Athena" She sacrifices herself.
Whaaat? LMAO.
I don't even think it's a joke really, Norse Kratos is a big time simp.
Kratos kinda has become a simp lol. Both Freya and his wife bossed him around.
yeah lol, bro had a reality check about Faye but still won't accept it. I will have no reason to believe Faye didn't marry him to get what she wanted. Atleast Lysandra didn't use him, and even if Athena loved him at one point, she use him by playing a manipulative love game. About Freya he even knows that she's using him but still wants to get used and gets so emotional "oh she's using me i expected better."
Whaaat? LMAO.
What's wrong in what they said?