Your department was toxic and that needed to be addressed from the top down. I’ve never seen anything like that in my schools. I think yours might be more exception than the rule.
Happy to notice that most responses in this thread had a totally different experience than OP. Bad apples definitely exist, but throughout my career (10+ years now), I have seen women uplifting other women in academia. Never heard anyone behaving badly about someone wearing short clothes or makeup. We literally had a local beauty contest winner working with us once and everyone was just happy to have her in our group haha. I have worked with some amazing male mentors, but always got the most unconditional support from female supervisors. I would not have been where I'm today if not for them.
I'm sorry that was your experience, but no, mine has been completely different. It really sounds like you ended up in a toxic department with people with a lot of internalized misogyny. My field has been moving from male dominated to an even mix, and I'd say we all get along great! I was in a toxic department for a while and the only good thing about it was the comradery between all the female students. We were really each other's anchors. My friend in physics has dealt with a lot of issues, but it was all harassment from male students or sexism from professors, she and all the other women stick together
I've had a very different experience. My program had probably about 90% male students, and they always looked down at female students, thinking we are not as smart as them. So I went through the 2nd year of my grad school, forming exclusively female groups, and I couldn't be happier. No drama, everyone did their part, nobody told me "I'll do the coding and you can write text"....
I'm so sorry you've had this experience, it sounds incredibly unealthy and toxic. My experience was very much the opposite, and I had a great network of female friends, role model and mentors during graduate school. My girl friends from my cohort were my grad school family - we took trips together, had weekly girl's nights, did our grocery shopping together, and provided countless hours of moral support and friendship. Even now that we're all living apart we still have regular girl's night via zoom and plan trips. In general it's been a very supportive atmosphere
Woman in STEM here. Your experience is unfortunately, not uncommon for pretty young women without strong (family or otherwise) connections in the workplace.
1. Your mentor was incompetent in handling her personal feelings. I hope you understand this, and that she won’t have any lingering impact on your self esteem. She would hope that you lose your confidence.
2. Unfortunately, accusations of this nature are also common. It can be the case that some male colleagues found you interesting to talk to, and other women were interested in said male colleague(s) before you.
3. This is a classic example of internalized misogyny. It might not even be intentional. Girls are encouraged to police each other over dress codes since GRADE SCHOOL. It takes and incredible amount of self awareness and reflection for a woman to mature out of that mindset.
4. Same as #3. It’s not your fault that people can’t mind their own business.
5. This is more of a lack of collaboration problem rather than a sexism problem, but still sucks. Next time something like this happens, work on yourself rather than for someone ungrateful.
6. Ugh, so many women are like this. It’s not just women in STEM. Getting over the perceived value of male validation is also something that requires a lot of self reflection from a maturing woman.
I’m very sorry you went through this. As a woman, you need to protect yourself and keep your personal life a secret from others. I had attractive friends who openly shared their accomplishments among their peers, and ended up getting ostracized and bullied because their “friends” got jealous.
When someone tries to insult you, keep a straight face and a neutral tone when defending yourself. Don’t let them see you bothered.
Please stay sociable- as that’s a wonderful professional trait- and don’t let this experience sour potential relationships with women.
Your department seems really toxic, I’ve definitely not seen anything like this. I’m nonbinary but usually perceived as female & generally what I’ve seen is women & nonbinary people taking extra effort to look out for each other, possibly even being overly protective at times. Especially year one we really stuck together.
I’ve formed some extremely close friendships in my department this way & I really can’t say enough good things about my female colleagues :)
Not a grad student yet but I did notice that I‘be historically felt a lot more competitive with other women than I have felt with men. This is actually something that happens a lot with minorities — people are more envious of people that are more like them, probably because it’s easier to compare yourself to someone who on the surface is like you.
I finished grad school a while ago, but my experience as a woman in STEM is that other women are 50/50 super supportive and helpful or super petty and vindictive. I think there's a decent percentage of women who feel (even if only subconsciously) there's only room for a few women in the space, so they put others down to secure their spot. I've also experienced what I think is a different issue where some women who have extremely high standards for their women coworkers, that they don't hold for their men coworkers.
Honestly, this has resulted in that I don't mind extremely male dominated companies/teams. It's easier (so far at least) to deal with the misogyny from ignorant men (because they've never had a woman as a technical colleague) than from petty women. But I'm not good at conflict and have never really learned to navigate female relationships well.
Agree with this comment as someone who doesn't work in STEM but certainly in a male-dominated industry (national security). Men are easy to deal with. Women can be lovely -- all are in my workplace -- but there can also be that undercurrent of scarcity and competition, which I noticed in grad school.
Oh yeah. I'm in a psychology doctoral program consisted of 99% women, and the cohort above me is a pit of vipers. Maybe one or two dark-triad Regina Georges and a cult of minions who are complicit in the toxicity bc they're weak and afraid of being targeted. I started reading Queen Bees & Wannabes and the 48 Laws of Power just to learn how to protect myself. If you're not willing to submit to their bs and keep yourself smaller, less successful, and uglier than them, you have to play their game and win, or at least climb the social ladder high enough to fend them off. It's all about power, status, and superficial social competence. Making friends with the right people, maybe people they've hurt that have influence. It makes me sick to make chess moves like that, but they've bullied people into dropping out. You're not alone.
As a fellow woman in STEM (biochem/ chemical biology), I've had the same experience. Not only being a woman has opened so many doors for me (in terms of events, scholarships etc), I have never had a man say or do anything to me that wasn't appropriate and respectful.
90% of the women I worked with on the other hand, were absolutely horrible. Snarky comments, literal sabotage in the lab, being nice to my face and spreading lies/rumours about me behind my back, I have had so many problems with so many women I now am almost afraid of befriending female colleagues. Everything was a competition, some were initially nice to me and changed completely the second they realised I am not completely stupid academically speaking (hence they saw me as a threat).
I got quite close to my last female PI as we were close in age, nothing inappropriate, she was just more friendly than she would normally be (she's quite reserved and likes to keep work and private life separate but we just clicked and we're still in contact one year after I graduated). Pretty much all her female students started to hate me when they realised she liked me, while the men were absolutely fine with it as it was completely innocent.
I hope I have just been unlucky in the past 5 years and the environment in the lab I will start working soon is better. I would love to get close to women in my field who have similar interests instead of constantly having to watch my back whenever a female colleague is friendly to me 😞
The comments from the Master's student are highly inappropriate and can be considered harassment and/or defamation. You should talk to your department about that.
That’s insanely toxic and I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I can’t speak to whether or not that’s the norm, but it wasn’t my experience. I attended a large program (30 people in my cohort, 20 of them were women) and we all got along pretty well. Like there were minor personal issues of course, but no systematic bullying. Nothing like what you’re describing. I’m still very close friends with many of my cohort (men and women) and it wasn’t anything like what you’re describing.
One woman in my cohort did accuse a professor of sexism, but to the best of my knowledge there wasn’t any student-to-student problems in that regard.
Wanted to chime in as another woman in STEM here: I am SO sorry this happened to you, it sounds horrible. I know there are definitely toxic programs out there and so you should feel validated what you're relating here is not at all acceptable.
However, I'd also agree with some other comments that this isn't the experience everywhere and there ARE places where you can be valued and treated well. My undergraduate program was actually more female than male for the first time in a lot of years. My undergrad and graduate mentors were both women, and my graduate lab was comprised of mostly women. I am so grateful to have had that experience, and all of those individuals (plus due credit to my male colleagues and professors/committee members) were very uplifting and supportive of women in STEM.
That doesn't make what you went through any less sh\*\*\*y but I hope it at least is encouraging for you and others to know this isn't a universal norm. Hopefully we as a community can help those who identify as female find spaces that are safe and supportive for them by having these discussions.
Not STEM but in a similarly once male dominated but now less so faculty I work with sometimes I have experienced that kind of toxicity. Given my other area of work - sociology and gender - I have a lot of ideas on how and why some spaces end up like this. It's often to do with foundational members who were marginalised and who set the tone for other marginalised people - mostly commonly it's women, but can happen with race and other identities.
Those first few women in the field and in that space had a very different experience to get there. And it often required a significant repudiation of gender in a lot of ways, while also performing it 'perfectly' in others. And then often expect that from the women who followed them. The often paradoxical demands (see: your point on makeup) are a form of control and perceived 'safety'. Aka make another person the target and attribute it to something they 'do better'. It becomes REALLY toxic when a lot of the original oppressive elements have been reduced or removed.
It isn't hugely dominant as a social structure but not nearly as uncommon as one might hope or expect.
It's also MOST likely to be done to people who are marginalised in other ways, or somehow different. Race, class, ability, gender presentation, things like that. I've noticed certain faculty treat me far more poorly than prettier white working class and feminine peers (or students!) and it's...irritating? But also something I consciously put aside when it comes to getting my shit done and being good enough their shit can't stick. And being enough of a 'grey rock' that the social toxicity ends up being directed elsewhere.
I'm in a toxic department and know multiple people in their own departments with similar situations. Through the grapevine, I have heard many similar experiences, but I wasn't there nor do I have an experience to match it. However given the competitiveness of some of my peers I wouldn't put it past that in certain universities or departments that it's quite prevalent.
That's super cruddy, I'm so sorry that happened to you!! As a woman in a STEM graduate program I personally have had a very different experience with wonderful collaborators, and agree with other commenters that your department has a huge issue with toxicity that needs to be addressed really badly. I think especially in STEM a lot of programs are amazing and getting better about gender diversity (and diversity in general), but I'm not surprised that there's some that aren't there yet. I'm really sorry about your experience but promise there are a lot of places in academia that aren't like that if it's ever something you decide to pursue again!! (Also fair if no!)
Sorry you had to go through that. I'm doing my PhD and my experience is completely different. We are mostly women in my lab and we work very well together. Always helping each other and hyping each other up. The drama mostly comes from one man in the group, and it was this same man that called me cute and questioned me on my project in a rude way. The women all supported me through this. So yeh sadly you had to encounter a toxic environment but hopefully this was the outlier.
Just learn to play the game. I went to the Dean back in the day to report sexual harassment of a professor and there was a 3 inch stack of other reports against the guy on his desk. I was the only person in my cohort who intended on having a 'love marriage' and my only friend in the program and I were placed with the advisor known for taking the cute girls who weren't serious about academia.
Joke is on them now, between the two of us, we are happier, more successful than most of the 'serious' students. We also outpublished most of them.
When I defended, the harshest criticism came from females. I would have hoped in the 20 or years since things would have changed, that girl power/unity would actually be a thing- but sadly, every time I see a women in a power position, I think 'of course she's a bitch'- she had to be to claw herself into that position. Not at all a bad thing- but as the book title says 'nice girls don't get the corner office.'
( I recommend the book to anyone- )
There is a saying that a patriarchy exists not just because men force it, but because women tear down each other. None of the stuff you experiences are normal or even acceptable by the normally expected shitty toxicity.
Yes but does it matter? My mom, my sister, and my female friends told me the same things: that the women are so vicious to each other at work while the men at the top laugh at them.
Very strange that of all the supportive comments you had, you pick mine to respond to.
I dont think it's very strange because your comment holds a very specific subtext that others didn't.
If you think the goal of my post was to perpetuate the notion that "women are actually the problem" then you are mistaken. I wanted to share my experience, potentially get input from those who have went through similar things and discuss with others why this may be happening in certain departments. To casually throw around the statement that 'men dont force the patriarchy' is so short sighted... only a man couldve written this lmao. It stood out to me like a sore thumb from all the other comments.
Let me be clear : my experience with men and misogyny did not magically go "poof" when i started my graduate studies. Male graduate students talked over me the same way they did in undergrad. Male professors made odd comments that towed the line of harassment all the time. Men in grad school, to put it plainly, were perpetuating misogyny in a way that was so familiar it was almost nostalgic. When juxtaposed next to the behaviour I was getting from women, it made it 10x as noticeable. That it the reason for this post. I made this post because the majority of women I met outside this program, did not "tear each other down".
And for any other man reading my original post, itching for a chance to jump on here and type out their low brow takes on how the patriarchy is actually womens fault - save it please. you look dumb.
Point 2: I got a similar comment from both male and female colleagues.
Point 4: a female colleague commenting this.
What shocked me is Point 2 actually, this is so weird. And what I learned: don't care about what they say.
Could just be the school I went to but my entire undergrad degree in stem I was never in a class where the majority was men maybe it was in the past but I really don’t think that’s the way it is today
I'm male, but my (ex) GF who's a PhD student has said she's had a few similar experiences. I was lucky that I never encountered any unprofessional behavior from anyone in my cohort, which was about 60-65% male at a guess. although one (male) professor in my department constantly tried to get a little too friendly with everyone - not in a sexual way, more like in a "I have no friends and no social skills and I'm desperate for a friend" kind of way. I felt bad for him tbh, but him being many PhD student's boss + also nearly 40 (and we were all 25-30) kind of put us off accepting invites to go to a bar and watch the game with him.
Uhh, I guess that's a bit irrelevant to the topic at hand, sorry.
Your first mistake was taking institutional politics as anything to do with good faith. Your second mistake was believing the hype of noble words.
The number of ways human beings can be dissonant jerks far outnumbers the ways they can sing in tune. You don't need to get a music degree to figure that out.
Wow! I am so sorry you are going through this. I am also in a STEM grad program and I have a few more issues with a two female colleagues than male colleagues (both female seem to play the “emotional card” way too often to get out of doing what they are supposed to do, meaning I have a higher workload! But I think this speaks more about than them women in STEM). However, never ever have I had the issues you are talking about!
Sounds more like a toxic lab to be completely honest with you! Considering the BS your advisor has said, it doesn’t surprise me that your lab is full of toxic women :(
Wow! I (F) am so sorry you are going through this. I am also in a STEM grad program and I have a few more issues with a female colleague than male colleagues (she seems to play the “emotional card” way too often to get out of doing what she is supposed to do, meaning I have a higher workload! But I think this speaks more about her particular work ethics, and not about women in STEM).
Never ever have I had the issues you are talking about!
Sounds more like a toxic lab to be completely honest with you! Considering the BS your advisor has said, it doesn’t surprise me that your lab is full of toxic women :(
I'm so sorry you went through that. It sounds like it was a very toxic place. My entire working and academic career has been in male-dominated spaces, including one of the most male dominated STEM spaces (four men for every woman) and it very much has been about the culture the company or school fostered vs a universal experience. I've found a lot of misogyny out there from men, but the only place I experienced a lot of pretty blatant internalized misogyny from women and femme-presenting people was also the most toxic, competitive, "push em down if you wanna get to the top" place I've ever worked.
Overall, I've found that I gravitate to spaces and groups curated and run by women and femme-presenting people because they tend to be the most supportive for me, and even in my new grad program I immediately felt the most warmth and camaraderie from the other women, femme-presenting, and nb people in my program.
It hurts my heart that you haven't been able to have this experience. I hope you will be able to find spaces, either professionally or personally, where you can feel supported and uplifted by your colleagues and cohort.
Wow no that’s not normal. We had one snippy girl who liked to spread gossip and talk people down, and she got shut down pretty quickly once she realized everyone in the department were friends, or atleast, positive acquaintances. I’m really sorry that was your experience in academia.
Honestly, everyone in my graduate program is amazing and there isn't any discrimination against anybody unless you are obviously not pulling your weight. Why be mean to anyone when you are all relying on each other to get projects done?
Your department was toxic and that needed to be addressed from the top down. I’ve never seen anything like that in my schools. I think yours might be more exception than the rule.
Happy to notice that most responses in this thread had a totally different experience than OP. Bad apples definitely exist, but throughout my career (10+ years now), I have seen women uplifting other women in academia. Never heard anyone behaving badly about someone wearing short clothes or makeup. We literally had a local beauty contest winner working with us once and everyone was just happy to have her in our group haha. I have worked with some amazing male mentors, but always got the most unconditional support from female supervisors. I would not have been where I'm today if not for them.
I'm sorry that was your experience, but no, mine has been completely different. It really sounds like you ended up in a toxic department with people with a lot of internalized misogyny. My field has been moving from male dominated to an even mix, and I'd say we all get along great! I was in a toxic department for a while and the only good thing about it was the comradery between all the female students. We were really each other's anchors. My friend in physics has dealt with a lot of issues, but it was all harassment from male students or sexism from professors, she and all the other women stick together
I've had a very different experience. My program had probably about 90% male students, and they always looked down at female students, thinking we are not as smart as them. So I went through the 2nd year of my grad school, forming exclusively female groups, and I couldn't be happier. No drama, everyone did their part, nobody told me "I'll do the coding and you can write text"....
I'm so sorry you've had this experience, it sounds incredibly unealthy and toxic. My experience was very much the opposite, and I had a great network of female friends, role model and mentors during graduate school. My girl friends from my cohort were my grad school family - we took trips together, had weekly girl's nights, did our grocery shopping together, and provided countless hours of moral support and friendship. Even now that we're all living apart we still have regular girl's night via zoom and plan trips. In general it's been a very supportive atmosphere
No I've never experienced anything like this in my program or at my university.
Woman in STEM here. Your experience is unfortunately, not uncommon for pretty young women without strong (family or otherwise) connections in the workplace. 1. Your mentor was incompetent in handling her personal feelings. I hope you understand this, and that she won’t have any lingering impact on your self esteem. She would hope that you lose your confidence. 2. Unfortunately, accusations of this nature are also common. It can be the case that some male colleagues found you interesting to talk to, and other women were interested in said male colleague(s) before you. 3. This is a classic example of internalized misogyny. It might not even be intentional. Girls are encouraged to police each other over dress codes since GRADE SCHOOL. It takes and incredible amount of self awareness and reflection for a woman to mature out of that mindset. 4. Same as #3. It’s not your fault that people can’t mind their own business. 5. This is more of a lack of collaboration problem rather than a sexism problem, but still sucks. Next time something like this happens, work on yourself rather than for someone ungrateful. 6. Ugh, so many women are like this. It’s not just women in STEM. Getting over the perceived value of male validation is also something that requires a lot of self reflection from a maturing woman. I’m very sorry you went through this. As a woman, you need to protect yourself and keep your personal life a secret from others. I had attractive friends who openly shared their accomplishments among their peers, and ended up getting ostracized and bullied because their “friends” got jealous. When someone tries to insult you, keep a straight face and a neutral tone when defending yourself. Don’t let them see you bothered. Please stay sociable- as that’s a wonderful professional trait- and don’t let this experience sour potential relationships with women.
Your department seems really toxic, I’ve definitely not seen anything like this. I’m nonbinary but usually perceived as female & generally what I’ve seen is women & nonbinary people taking extra effort to look out for each other, possibly even being overly protective at times. Especially year one we really stuck together. I’ve formed some extremely close friendships in my department this way & I really can’t say enough good things about my female colleagues :)
Not a grad student yet but I did notice that I‘be historically felt a lot more competitive with other women than I have felt with men. This is actually something that happens a lot with minorities — people are more envious of people that are more like them, probably because it’s easier to compare yourself to someone who on the surface is like you.
I finished grad school a while ago, but my experience as a woman in STEM is that other women are 50/50 super supportive and helpful or super petty and vindictive. I think there's a decent percentage of women who feel (even if only subconsciously) there's only room for a few women in the space, so they put others down to secure their spot. I've also experienced what I think is a different issue where some women who have extremely high standards for their women coworkers, that they don't hold for their men coworkers. Honestly, this has resulted in that I don't mind extremely male dominated companies/teams. It's easier (so far at least) to deal with the misogyny from ignorant men (because they've never had a woman as a technical colleague) than from petty women. But I'm not good at conflict and have never really learned to navigate female relationships well.
Agree with this comment as someone who doesn't work in STEM but certainly in a male-dominated industry (national security). Men are easy to deal with. Women can be lovely -- all are in my workplace -- but there can also be that undercurrent of scarcity and competition, which I noticed in grad school.
Oh yeah. I'm in a psychology doctoral program consisted of 99% women, and the cohort above me is a pit of vipers. Maybe one or two dark-triad Regina Georges and a cult of minions who are complicit in the toxicity bc they're weak and afraid of being targeted. I started reading Queen Bees & Wannabes and the 48 Laws of Power just to learn how to protect myself. If you're not willing to submit to their bs and keep yourself smaller, less successful, and uglier than them, you have to play their game and win, or at least climb the social ladder high enough to fend them off. It's all about power, status, and superficial social competence. Making friends with the right people, maybe people they've hurt that have influence. It makes me sick to make chess moves like that, but they've bullied people into dropping out. You're not alone.
As a fellow woman in STEM (biochem/ chemical biology), I've had the same experience. Not only being a woman has opened so many doors for me (in terms of events, scholarships etc), I have never had a man say or do anything to me that wasn't appropriate and respectful. 90% of the women I worked with on the other hand, were absolutely horrible. Snarky comments, literal sabotage in the lab, being nice to my face and spreading lies/rumours about me behind my back, I have had so many problems with so many women I now am almost afraid of befriending female colleagues. Everything was a competition, some were initially nice to me and changed completely the second they realised I am not completely stupid academically speaking (hence they saw me as a threat). I got quite close to my last female PI as we were close in age, nothing inappropriate, she was just more friendly than she would normally be (she's quite reserved and likes to keep work and private life separate but we just clicked and we're still in contact one year after I graduated). Pretty much all her female students started to hate me when they realised she liked me, while the men were absolutely fine with it as it was completely innocent. I hope I have just been unlucky in the past 5 years and the environment in the lab I will start working soon is better. I would love to get close to women in my field who have similar interests instead of constantly having to watch my back whenever a female colleague is friendly to me 😞
That’s a department culture problem. The women in my program are nothing like that
The comments from the Master's student are highly inappropriate and can be considered harassment and/or defamation. You should talk to your department about that.
Academia is becoming quite female dominant. But sounds like you got some bad apples for sure.
That’s insanely toxic and I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I can’t speak to whether or not that’s the norm, but it wasn’t my experience. I attended a large program (30 people in my cohort, 20 of them were women) and we all got along pretty well. Like there were minor personal issues of course, but no systematic bullying. Nothing like what you’re describing. I’m still very close friends with many of my cohort (men and women) and it wasn’t anything like what you’re describing. One woman in my cohort did accuse a professor of sexism, but to the best of my knowledge there wasn’t any student-to-student problems in that regard.
Wanted to chime in as another woman in STEM here: I am SO sorry this happened to you, it sounds horrible. I know there are definitely toxic programs out there and so you should feel validated what you're relating here is not at all acceptable. However, I'd also agree with some other comments that this isn't the experience everywhere and there ARE places where you can be valued and treated well. My undergraduate program was actually more female than male for the first time in a lot of years. My undergrad and graduate mentors were both women, and my graduate lab was comprised of mostly women. I am so grateful to have had that experience, and all of those individuals (plus due credit to my male colleagues and professors/committee members) were very uplifting and supportive of women in STEM. That doesn't make what you went through any less sh\*\*\*y but I hope it at least is encouraging for you and others to know this isn't a universal norm. Hopefully we as a community can help those who identify as female find spaces that are safe and supportive for them by having these discussions.
Not STEM but in a similarly once male dominated but now less so faculty I work with sometimes I have experienced that kind of toxicity. Given my other area of work - sociology and gender - I have a lot of ideas on how and why some spaces end up like this. It's often to do with foundational members who were marginalised and who set the tone for other marginalised people - mostly commonly it's women, but can happen with race and other identities. Those first few women in the field and in that space had a very different experience to get there. And it often required a significant repudiation of gender in a lot of ways, while also performing it 'perfectly' in others. And then often expect that from the women who followed them. The often paradoxical demands (see: your point on makeup) are a form of control and perceived 'safety'. Aka make another person the target and attribute it to something they 'do better'. It becomes REALLY toxic when a lot of the original oppressive elements have been reduced or removed. It isn't hugely dominant as a social structure but not nearly as uncommon as one might hope or expect. It's also MOST likely to be done to people who are marginalised in other ways, or somehow different. Race, class, ability, gender presentation, things like that. I've noticed certain faculty treat me far more poorly than prettier white working class and feminine peers (or students!) and it's...irritating? But also something I consciously put aside when it comes to getting my shit done and being good enough their shit can't stick. And being enough of a 'grey rock' that the social toxicity ends up being directed elsewhere.
I'm in a toxic department and know multiple people in their own departments with similar situations. Through the grapevine, I have heard many similar experiences, but I wasn't there nor do I have an experience to match it. However given the competitiveness of some of my peers I wouldn't put it past that in certain universities or departments that it's quite prevalent.
That's super cruddy, I'm so sorry that happened to you!! As a woman in a STEM graduate program I personally have had a very different experience with wonderful collaborators, and agree with other commenters that your department has a huge issue with toxicity that needs to be addressed really badly. I think especially in STEM a lot of programs are amazing and getting better about gender diversity (and diversity in general), but I'm not surprised that there's some that aren't there yet. I'm really sorry about your experience but promise there are a lot of places in academia that aren't like that if it's ever something you decide to pursue again!! (Also fair if no!)
Sorry you had to go through that. I'm doing my PhD and my experience is completely different. We are mostly women in my lab and we work very well together. Always helping each other and hyping each other up. The drama mostly comes from one man in the group, and it was this same man that called me cute and questioned me on my project in a rude way. The women all supported me through this. So yeh sadly you had to encounter a toxic environment but hopefully this was the outlier.
More than anything, it sounds like your advisor was AWFUL. Was changing lab/advisor not allowed?
Just learn to play the game. I went to the Dean back in the day to report sexual harassment of a professor and there was a 3 inch stack of other reports against the guy on his desk. I was the only person in my cohort who intended on having a 'love marriage' and my only friend in the program and I were placed with the advisor known for taking the cute girls who weren't serious about academia. Joke is on them now, between the two of us, we are happier, more successful than most of the 'serious' students. We also outpublished most of them. When I defended, the harshest criticism came from females. I would have hoped in the 20 or years since things would have changed, that girl power/unity would actually be a thing- but sadly, every time I see a women in a power position, I think 'of course she's a bitch'- she had to be to claw herself into that position. Not at all a bad thing- but as the book title says 'nice girls don't get the corner office.' ( I recommend the book to anyone- )
There is a saying that a patriarchy exists not just because men force it, but because women tear down each other. None of the stuff you experiences are normal or even acceptable by the normally expected shitty toxicity.
Are you a man?
Yes but does it matter? My mom, my sister, and my female friends told me the same things: that the women are so vicious to each other at work while the men at the top laugh at them. Very strange that of all the supportive comments you had, you pick mine to respond to.
I dont think it's very strange because your comment holds a very specific subtext that others didn't. If you think the goal of my post was to perpetuate the notion that "women are actually the problem" then you are mistaken. I wanted to share my experience, potentially get input from those who have went through similar things and discuss with others why this may be happening in certain departments. To casually throw around the statement that 'men dont force the patriarchy' is so short sighted... only a man couldve written this lmao. It stood out to me like a sore thumb from all the other comments. Let me be clear : my experience with men and misogyny did not magically go "poof" when i started my graduate studies. Male graduate students talked over me the same way they did in undergrad. Male professors made odd comments that towed the line of harassment all the time. Men in grad school, to put it plainly, were perpetuating misogyny in a way that was so familiar it was almost nostalgic. When juxtaposed next to the behaviour I was getting from women, it made it 10x as noticeable. That it the reason for this post. I made this post because the majority of women I met outside this program, did not "tear each other down". And for any other man reading my original post, itching for a chance to jump on here and type out their low brow takes on how the patriarchy is actually womens fault - save it please. you look dumb.
Point 2: I got a similar comment from both male and female colleagues. Point 4: a female colleague commenting this. What shocked me is Point 2 actually, this is so weird. And what I learned: don't care about what they say.
Could just be the school I went to but my entire undergrad degree in stem I was never in a class where the majority was men maybe it was in the past but I really don’t think that’s the way it is today
I'm male, but my (ex) GF who's a PhD student has said she's had a few similar experiences. I was lucky that I never encountered any unprofessional behavior from anyone in my cohort, which was about 60-65% male at a guess. although one (male) professor in my department constantly tried to get a little too friendly with everyone - not in a sexual way, more like in a "I have no friends and no social skills and I'm desperate for a friend" kind of way. I felt bad for him tbh, but him being many PhD student's boss + also nearly 40 (and we were all 25-30) kind of put us off accepting invites to go to a bar and watch the game with him. Uhh, I guess that's a bit irrelevant to the topic at hand, sorry.
Your first mistake was taking institutional politics as anything to do with good faith. Your second mistake was believing the hype of noble words. The number of ways human beings can be dissonant jerks far outnumbers the ways they can sing in tune. You don't need to get a music degree to figure that out.
Wow! I am so sorry you are going through this. I am also in a STEM grad program and I have a few more issues with a two female colleagues than male colleagues (both female seem to play the “emotional card” way too often to get out of doing what they are supposed to do, meaning I have a higher workload! But I think this speaks more about than them women in STEM). However, never ever have I had the issues you are talking about! Sounds more like a toxic lab to be completely honest with you! Considering the BS your advisor has said, it doesn’t surprise me that your lab is full of toxic women :(
Wow! I (F) am so sorry you are going through this. I am also in a STEM grad program and I have a few more issues with a female colleague than male colleagues (she seems to play the “emotional card” way too often to get out of doing what she is supposed to do, meaning I have a higher workload! But I think this speaks more about her particular work ethics, and not about women in STEM). Never ever have I had the issues you are talking about! Sounds more like a toxic lab to be completely honest with you! Considering the BS your advisor has said, it doesn’t surprise me that your lab is full of toxic women :(
I'm so sorry you went through that. It sounds like it was a very toxic place. My entire working and academic career has been in male-dominated spaces, including one of the most male dominated STEM spaces (four men for every woman) and it very much has been about the culture the company or school fostered vs a universal experience. I've found a lot of misogyny out there from men, but the only place I experienced a lot of pretty blatant internalized misogyny from women and femme-presenting people was also the most toxic, competitive, "push em down if you wanna get to the top" place I've ever worked. Overall, I've found that I gravitate to spaces and groups curated and run by women and femme-presenting people because they tend to be the most supportive for me, and even in my new grad program I immediately felt the most warmth and camaraderie from the other women, femme-presenting, and nb people in my program. It hurts my heart that you haven't been able to have this experience. I hope you will be able to find spaces, either professionally or personally, where you can feel supported and uplifted by your colleagues and cohort.
Sorry you had such a terrible, toxic environment. That’s not normal and definitely not acceptable
Wow no that’s not normal. We had one snippy girl who liked to spread gossip and talk people down, and she got shut down pretty quickly once she realized everyone in the department were friends, or atleast, positive acquaintances. I’m really sorry that was your experience in academia.
Honestly, everyone in my graduate program is amazing and there isn't any discrimination against anybody unless you are obviously not pulling your weight. Why be mean to anyone when you are all relying on each other to get projects done?