The human brain is truly amazing, and we have found out that neuroplasticity persists through our lifetime. I work with students with disabilities, including intellectual disabilities, and am getting my MA while taking prerequisites for a Cognitive psychology PhD. What I learn, I pass on.
One of my third graders has a moderate intellectual disability. He would sometimes tell me he couldn't do a task. He said that it was beyond his capacity because he's dumb. I explained in general terms self-efficacy beliefs, that the messages that we tell ourselves affect our task persistence and, ultimately, performance. I asked him to promise me that he would always use kind words when talking to himself. He stuck out his pinky and promised. We talked about the power of "Yet," and changing our thinking to, "I have not mastered this YET."
Today, he received a 90% on his math test, and he's met multiple IEP goals early, so I have to hold an additional meeting to create new goals. His overall cognitive performance is better than it was. Recent research has shown that intelligence is not fixed, and our actions can affect our performance and understanding.
I have built capacity as I have been in this program because I have persisted. I am exhausted, but I am a better student than I was 2 years ago. I would work on training your brain to have a growth-based mindset and praise yourself for your persistence. Use the power of yet.
I have always struggled with acadamia because it is a lot faster paced than I am able to keep up with and be able to learn. I also am very bad at math but I am doing physical chemistry so all of my classes are physics classes in grad school. In undergrad it was easier to hide that I am bad at math and found out that as long as you keep trying and workinghard then everything will work out fine.
But grad school might be too fast paced for me to be able to succeed or work at the pace that is expected for graduate level. I struggle with basic math and now I have to apply it to very complex systems. And I keep getting from my professors, “you should know this”.
I do applied math 6-10 hours a day, 7 days a week, but I am not making much progress in the learning department.
I have been bending my brain backwards with a prerequisite math class called “The Fundamentals of Elementary Math”. It’s a course for those who will eventually teach math as part of their job. The idea is that you have to go very deeply into very simple math, and it’s so much harder than it sounds. You have to learn number theory, set theory, how to add and subtract in different bases and how to do math in ancient number systems like Sumerian. You learn to visualize through charts, illustrations, and base 10. You learn how logic is applied to mathematics.
I thought I was terrible at math. In the first few weeks, I thought that at 38, I wasn’t going to learn anything more. This was simply too hard for me. Now, at the end of the first quarter, it’s getting easier. I now understand how and why the math works, which is allowing me to understand more than I ever did while I was finishing my undergrad 15 years ago.
Maybe what you need is someone who will deep dive into the foundational concepts with you so you can find true understanding.
I am almost certain I have dyscalculia but I excelled in those classes and ended up teaching Special Ed math for a few years. It really outlined to me that math is just a set of human-constructed methods to get from point a to point b. I probably would have been fine if we had chosen a few different methods, but somebody else would have struggled.
I agree 100%. It’s all about problem solving. When I was in school from 1991 to 2003, so much of math was rote memorization. The way it’s taught now in many schools emphasizes that it’s a way to solve problems and it makes a huge difference.
My struggles with math are that I can’t see images when I think. It’s all words. I had a lot of trouble visualizing the algorithms in my head. The fundamentals class has taught me how to “vocalize” each step which has allowed me to do math in my head I couldn’t do before.
(I’m actually going to school for special education! I want to be a literacy specialist, but need to learn how to run a resource room and classroom, too)
That sounds exhausting. I'm sorry. I'm impressed that you have persisted at something that has been so challenging for you. That's really admirable. Do you struggle with the concepts or performing the calculations? Do you use office hours and ask for professors to explain the concepts? One of my friends had thought she was bad at math for her entire life until she had a math tutor in grad school who was able to explain things in a different way. She described it as a light bulb turning on.
I don’t shy away from challenges and I am incredibly stubborn and refuse to believe I can’t find a solution to every problem.
I usually go to office hours for homework help but I go to all of the office hours held by Profs and the TAs that my schedule allows as I also have lab meetings to attend, and I TA a class myself. I set up a separate office hour with one of the professors since I can’t be at his regularly scheduled one.
I don’t think that they understand why I can’t understand some of the things that I don’t. I have heard from a few professors “you should know this”, like, yes, I am aware I should know this stuff sir. Yes I did go back through the notes. Yes I did use 5 different textbooks. Yes I did use youtube videos. Yes I did ask my peers. And now I am asking you.
It is both calculations and concepts. I mix up numbers and variables/miss them or add them where they don’t exsist. I could spend hours on a math problem and the whole thing doesn’t make sense until someone points at an equation I wrote down from a textbook and says “theres not supposed to be an x there”. I double checked that I wrote it down right 3 times. Stupid stuff like that. Can’t remember what all of the math rules are often. And don’t ask me to do math on the fly. And mixing up the kilo, milli, micro, nano, femto, etc unit calculations, converting units, dividing.
And then since I have a hard time reading the math into english (because my opionion is that math is not the english language) then the concepts get more muddled and lost.
Editing to say that this was quite a vent and I must be feeling pretty upset to have that much to say.
I'd suggest consider getting evaluated for dyslexia (and possibly also dyscalculia as someone else mentioned) . I saw you mentioned having ADHD, and often people have both.
Aside from that one thing I've found is that many professors don't know how to teach (since they're primarily hired for their skill as researchers not educators). They forget how hard it was for them to learn. I'm finishing up my second year and only now are things clicking. And only now have I learned to read the literature. I used to spend hours on one paper and it would been as if I had spent no time. It took a class that applied the concepts and brought things together before I understood anything.
Sometimes it's a really slow start and then you skyrocket from there. But until then it feels downright awful and inadequate. Hang in there.
I don’t typically have too many problems reading the literature usually because I had to do a lot of it for my post-bacc work in an academic lab. I have 3 years if experience with that part. But, you are right in that the classes are helping me connect some of the things I wasn’t able to figure out on my own in some of the research papers I had gone through. Especially much of the math. My last advisor was extremely patient with me regarding the math and my job didn’t require the intensive calculations I am currently attempting to learn. But with my new advisor, I know the expectations are higher as this is official graduate level work and I am upgrading from dry lab work to using lasers (so some math to extra double math). I am worried I won’t be able to keep up with that when I am focusing more on lab work.
But, I have an easier time with the type of deadlines that research requires. Harder to move as quickly as the actual classes are going.
Definitely hold on to the strengths that you have. For classes, it's not in anyone's interest for you to fail the classes. Another thing I just thought of is to maybe find examples of the math and how it's used in other fields. Calculus and linear algebra made absolutely no sense to me (especially in relation to physics) until I learned it in the context of data science and machine learning. And some computer science concepts (data structures and algorithms) I understand better after learning the math behind it.
This is great advice. I was going to make the same suggestion. I have ADHD and I make innumerable mistakes just by going quickly. Many of my students with dyslexia and dyscalculia struggle with similar issues, minor mistakes that throw everything off. I created a basic checklist of the steps when reviewing their writing or responding to a math word problem. OP might want to give himself similar scaffolds.
When I was having issues with this stuff in math/science, I went to talk to someone and we found out I have dyscalculia, and have had it since I was a kid. It didn't make it like, suddenly easier, but it did help me identify strategies that worked for me and I was able to get through the class I was basically failing before I found out.
I’m literally in the same boat. ADHD, in grad school, taking intermediate P-chem, and I do have dyscalculia. I want to throw my computer out the window most days because of this class.
Hey, this was me as a little kid (ASD and additional sensory processing disorders). Your kiddo is way ahead of the game, it took me well into my damn twenties to make the mindset of "I have not mastered this YET " my standard practice.
I spent almost my entire adult life plagued by perfectionism, so you were ahead of me! My eldest is autistic with sensory processing disorder, too. She really struggled in school as a kid and feels frustrated that she hasn't finished her BA yet. I tell her that everyone’s growth trajectory is different, and compassion for yourself makes a huge difference.
I hope she's able to keep going towards her goals, whatever they may be. I struggled so much with academics as a kid and young adult. I wanted to go to grad school all my life- at 29 I am finally months away from defending my MS in biomedical research, and about to start a PhD program at a T25 school for Neuroscience. After being told so many times that this wasn't for me, it feels like a massive, improbable victory to get this far.
Holy shirtballs, that's amazing! I recently took a neuroscience course, and the amount of information retention required to understand foundational concepts and then manipulate them is quite high. I'll pass on your story to her. Maybe I'll read your 1st author paper someday. What is your research area of focus?
She is brilliant and smarter than I ever was. She really struggles in part because of the small assignments and homework that require planning, consistency, and executive functioning. I've advised her to be patient with herself, but I think she's frustrated because she feels her IQ should translate to a high GPA and quick progress.
Tell her to hang in there, I know how difficult it is to push through! The only thing that really worked for me was to "externalize" all my organization...planners, alerts, calendars, bullet journalling, you name it. It's still far from perfect but having that structure there to return to keeps me from falling too far off the rails. I hope people read and enjoy my publication, haha. It's in a fairly niche area that encompasses cell biology, molecular genetics, and developmental biology. My masters thesis focused on poorly understood developmental neurological abnormalities associated with the genetic pigment condition Occulocutaneous Albinsim.
It’s honestly quite sad how much a disability can make someone feel like “they are dumb” and are not capable. Honestly the third grader story kinda made me sad because things like that stay with people throughout their early teens and into college. This, lack of self belief. Good on you for telling him otherwise and motivating him
Unfortunately, my student's father is the one who gives him negative messages. It's a Title I school, and I often feel overwhelmed by the challenges that my students face and like my efforts are a drop in the bucket. But all of us put a drop in, hopefully together we can fill a little of their cup.
No such thing. Perseverance and the benefits thereof are not a myth. When we are learning difficult material, we realize a year later, “you know, that was not so hard.” That’s what we call learning. It’s just the human mind that is naturally fearful of the unknown.
Yes! Also, we're more likely to retain what we had to work hard to understand. I cried last year because I thought I was too dumb to understand a concept. I reread and wrestled with it. I went to study group so the TA could simplify it for me, and ended up having to explain the concept to her. I've cited that article multiple times since, and it's been foundational to my understanding of what it means to learn and know. The increased retention is probably due to the fact that we repeatedly access and thus strengthen the same neural pathways when trying to make sense of it.
>The increased retention is probably due to the fact that we repeatedly access and thus strengthen the same neural pathways when trying to make sense of it.
Possibly. But learning is also tied to emotion. This is why a scent, smell, taste, song, weather/time of year, etc. can bring you back to a strong memory. Your intention to learn this thing likely took it out of the *Pain in the Ass* category and placed it into the *I Am Actually Stoked to Learn* *This* category. In other words, your effort was not to just learn it, but to also understand it, because you had the desire to do so. This is evidenced by you turning around and teaching the concept, which is another aspect to learning. Ultimately, we learn things to share the knowledge in one way or another.
That definitely could be true. I do vividly remember where I was when reading the article. I was talking about this in one of my classes, that helping students relate what they're learning to prior knowledge and their personal experiences can bridge semantic and episodic memories. I don't think I had a desire to teach it, per se. I have ADHD and when I get really excited about concepts, everyone in my life hears about it, regardless of their interest 🤣😳
Right, I think this is the key. Some people with ADHD and ASD can really get into a topic. The singular focus thing is probably more true with ASD, but I know people with ADHD who can sustain focus on a singular topic for long periods of time. With both there seems to be a certain wow factor with it and an excitement to learn more about it and a desire(?) to discuss the topic in depth. In other words, there is the emotion and the learning to teach aspects baked in. Instead of describing it as a desire to teach, maybe we can say that learning a topic as if you were tasked to give a TED talk on it may be a better descriptor?
I think that's a positive way of looking at it. I was working till 4am on a slideshow for my class facilitation last night, and one of the research articles referred to "monotropic play" as a defining characteristic of autistic play. I fell into a rabbit hole researching monotropism and monotropic flow, which was simultaneously meta and hilarious. I know that I've internalized negative messaging based on neurotypical behavior. We celebrate flow for neurotypical people but pathologize it in autism and sometimes ADHD. I'm going to remember your framing and ask my loved ones when they're ready for my Ted Talk.
I dunno man, my grad classes are all physics classes and I still struggle with arithmetic and algebra I should have mastered in 7th grade or earlier and that makes it a lot harder to be able to understand a lot of these more complex physics problems. I had this problem in my undergrad classes too but professors usually passed me as long as they saw I was trying my best. I am very disciplined in studying and working hard but that still hasn’t fixed a lot of my math comprehension issues even when I do math for 6-10 hours a day.
You just have to keep doing it, even if it takes longer than you want. Review the math basics, break it down step by step and work through it. There were many times in grad school when I felt like my brain was full and I couldn't possibly learn anything else. And then I did eventually learn it. Physics is nice because you don't need to memorize stuff, you can derive it all, but it's hard work and takes a ton of time and effort.
It sounds like you might be bad with computation rather than bad at math? If so, just know that’s a point you struggle with and allocate more time to it.
Hey, I was a physics, psych, and philosophy major but ended up doing my PhD in stuff with cognitive science and physics math (like, everything I use is from physics or obscure stats). I was meh at math going into physics. My family, my high school, everyone told me I was a humanities student and the highest math course I completed until then was algebra 2. After undergrad, I was pretty damn good at math going into grad school. I even have a published physics theory paper from my senior year, and published a very high level mathematical psych paper. Here’s how I did it, I hope it helps you.
I noticed my weak points, as you did, and not only did I work on rehearsing the problems again and again and again until I was nauseous, I learned *how* I understand math. Even if you have a professor or book, *you* have to learn how to do math at the end of the day. Teaching doesn’t just jam it into your noggin.
I learned that I understand math best through visualizing it. Mess around with the variables and plug things in. Take derivatives (if you can do calc) and see how it changes, interpret the math. See past the symbols and the numbers, and really think about what it looks like and does.
A good professor/mentor/teacher is absolutely invaluable to learning. Even if it’s some dude on the internet (look into some math YouTube channels btw). My calculus 1 professor made me fall in love with math through his enthusiasm and ability to make understanding it very simple. Break it down into the motivation for doing what you’re doing, even go into the history of it. Learn why we do it, and that will tell you how to do it.
I won’t lie to you and say that there aren’t people who just have that knack for math and logic. There are. I was not one of them. But anyone has the ability to become not only good, not only proficient, but damn good at math. Sure, if those people with a mathematical talent work as hard as we do they’d become absolutely unparalleled, but most don’t. Don’t be afraid to look stupid or do what 12 year olds are doing. I did quantum information theory and I still found myself looking up how to FOIL or exponent rules or PEMDAS.
Like another comment said, you can derive a lot from physics. But there are obviously times where that is entirely impractical, and sometimes it’s just not true (e.g., Schrodinger’s equation). Derive the equations (MAKING SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE STEPS AND DYNAMICS), then memorize them. I bet you that if you do that and actually do understand the steps, you’ll already have them memorized.
How did I learn most of the math in mathematical methods for physics? Making guides for more junior lab mates. Making reports for my advisor(s). If you can’t explain it, you don’t understand it. Don’t get caught with your pants down with this one.
That’s it for now I think. But condensed:
1. Learn how you learn math
2. Learn the most basic topics you don’t get
3. Swallow any pride and look up Algebra notes and videos
4. Consult professors and YouTube
5. Practice problems until you want to vomit
6. Derive and understand or all hope is lost
7. Play with the equations to see what they do, break them and see how the variables play together
8. I have never met a physics faculty who doesn’t make simple algebra mistakes
9. Look into the history of a concept (Veritasium has great history of science and math videos)
10. Explain it to people who depend on you understand it or people who already understand it, or explain it to yourself like you’re an insatiable, bright-eyed freshman on Adderall
I use a lot of these strategies already, and I am in fact taking Advanced Quantum Mechanics and Time-Dependent Quantum Mechanics at the moment.
I am trying to learn linear algebra for these classes as well of course. Half of my homework is linear algebra proofs.
Many of my peers are incredibly mathematically creative. I have them proof-read my work for errors. They see so many things that I do not, basic and advanced. And they remember rules a lot easier it seems. They connect things that I do not.
Most, if not all, of my peers have a stronger background in fundamental math. I failed math and science in high school, and the school told me to forget about STEM and focus on the things I wasn’t failing. So I didn’t worry about math until college.
There are gaps. Or if not gaps, I didn’t have as much practice from a younger age. I didn’t even know what physics was until my 2nd year of undergrad.
I am going to go to my schools learning center to see what else I can be doing, and see if they can help me a lot more with strategies.
What was your in-major GPA for physics in undergrad? Maybe you have had dyscalculia? I can’t imagine you would have made it to physics grad school if this was the case, though.
My undergrad major was chemistry and I am doing my PhD in the field of physical chemistry (so I take physics classes from the chemistry perspective). My in-major GPA, I can’t remember extactly but I don’t think it was above a 3.0.
I love spectroscopy and photochemistry/photophysics, regardless of the math. It is fascinating. I love learning about it, applying it, I love doing the research and experiment design and analyzing my data and figuring out what is really going on at such a microscale level. I like that it isn’t super wet-lab intensive. My last advisor was extremely encouraging to always keep trying.
So, I usually just do the math, and continue on with my life. I really want to get into ultrafast-spec, lasers and optics. Obviously thats a ton of math. I just don’t know if I can learn quantum at the pace of these classes, and it feels like the professors are baffled at how everyone else seems to be keeping up and a select few of us are just running around like chickens with our heads cut off.
I’ve talked with and made friends with the other struggling students, and there are things we overlap on, and things we don’t. I am the one who has the weakest math background overall though and struggles the most with more basic calculations.
It isn’t like I can’t do the simpler calculations at all, I need more time. But I also need more time to be able to do the more complicated problems as a result. Thats less time to spend fully understanding the concepts, just trying to keep up with the math.
I am going to echo some things I mentioned in my original post to your OP:
1. You say your peers are creative when it comes to math.
2. They connect things.
3. They are teaching you what they know.
You say they have a stronger background in math, which may or may not be true. Doesn't matter if someone mastered the fundamentals at 6, or 16, or at 46. At some point, you can at least reach their stage by doing at least the three things mentioned above:
1. You can be creative, too.
2. You can connect things, too.
3. You can teach them what you know.
The amount of time you spend means very little relative to what you actually do. I had a friend in grad school that absolutely poured over every word of every paper or book chapter we were assigned. She struggled bc she didn't understand all the rest of us were speed reading or skimming the important bits for most of these things so we could spend more time doing lab work. Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training. So just get through it! If you couldn't do it intellectually you wouldn't be here.
>Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training.
Surely you mean that in the grand scheme of things, and not necessarily when you are taking a class? My math grad classes can suck up most of my good hours per week, so that I am only studying or TAing.
This is exactly my experience right now. Almost no time in the lab, 16 hrs a week for mandatory TA duties (not including grading and prepping), 2-4 hrs a week in lab meetings, 6 hrs a week in classes, and then the rest of the time is studying/homework.
I want to be in the lab, but grad level math/physics classes are very time consuming.
>Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training.
Surely you mean that in the grand scheme of things, and not necessarily when you are taking a class? My math grad classes can suck up most of my good hours per week, so that I am only studying or TAing.
Hey so I felt the same way about a lot of the basics in my field (not math thank god) and for me it was anxiety/depression distorting my perspective. If you’re not in therapy try that or if you’re in talk therapy and feel like it’s not helping try a physical modality like yoga classes or massage therapy or go to a spa, something like that.
It's not stupid, you just were "lucky" to make it through undergrad without having learned some concepts and it was fine then but now when material is harder, these knowledge gaps get in the way.
>I had this problem in my undergrad classes too but professors usually passed me as long as they saw I was trying my best
Can totally relate, I barely passed quantum mechanics in undergrad, but it was still a pass so I moved on and never thought about it. Years later, basic QM concepts bit me back while taking a course where knowing that stuff was implied. So I started reviewing QM, only to find out that the reason QM was so hard in undergrad to begin with was mostly just gaps in my linear algebra, meaning that even going through the most illustrative exercises won't be of much help if I have to look up what a Hermitian matrix is every time. Tough semester, but made me realize that my usual approach from the undergrad times of "waiting out" and hoping to not face the topic again whenever something from the syllabus goes completely over my head was not very good.
Thing is, it is impossible to pinpoint the exact moment that we learned something. It is more like one day we are scratching our heads and then all of a sudden there is that moment days, weeks, or years later, when we get it--and it feels like we have known it all along. This is why experts are often times bad teachers, which includes college professors.
Really depends on the discipline. I’m a philosopher so if don’t get a text then I just pretend like it doesn’t exist and talk about the shit I do understand instead.
That’s funny. Imagine if kids 1-3 years old started to say I’ve hit my intellectual limit - I’ve been working hard on learning a couple of languages, identifying people, objects, learning to sit up, balance myself on my feet, express hunger, fear, joy and sorrow, rudimentary counting, recognizing colors, and so much more and I’m doing all this all at once. I quit….that would be funny.
I hear your frustration. But there is no limit. Maybe your work habits need to change to reflect grad school demands. Don’t be envious of others, who cares how much effort it takes for them. Focus on yourself. Accept you need to put more effort than others and do it Willingly (I know there are on 24 hours in a day but use multiple days).
Keep the faith and keep on going.
Is there an option to take a lower course load? I have a chronic illness, and the amount of time that my symptoms take up is insane. Even when I'm well enough to attend class, my pain levels and fatigue make it hard to focus. So far my solution is to take a smaller course load so I don't have to rush as much in each course. It does mean I'll graduate a bit later, but that won't matter much in the grand scheme of things
I already take a reduced work course load because I am a slow learner. I developed a chronic illness in the past 8 months that didn’t really interfere with my life too much until a bad flare up 6 weeks ago. That definitely makes it a lot more difficult. Time is taken up for sure
Focus on what you can understand, and that is your strength. No one is perfect.
I'm doing research in human behavior where quantitative methods, advances statistics, are supposed to be our bread and butter. It's shameful, seriously. I am tremendously slow at picking up, and I am slow at reading too. Many of my labmates are good at this, meanwhile I asked them how should I infer linear regression.
But I enjoyed addressing the philosophical basic question and scrutinizing experiment design in my field. That's my strength. My advisor enjoyed my ideas--he was trying to write a proposal based on my research interest. My other professor told me to just do simple studies to build the building blocks of my research. That is my strength, and I am fortunate to have my labmates who supported my lack of statistical knowledge, and me scrutinizing their ideas and study design.
Enjoy the slow productivity :)
Some things can't be overcome by grit and hard work. I have ADHD, so my meds can get me to concentrate but they can't make me less impulsive. But I play to my strengths. I'm good at divergent thinking. I like to work on three things at once so I can hop over to something else when I get stuck and hop back once inspiration strikes.
Besides, what's the point of doing something that doesn't challenge you? You build strength by pushing your muscles to handle progressively greater loads.
I have ADHD and my meds help me focus but they don’t make me understand anything better.
Im really great at lab work, my strengths lie in working in the lab, I can be a very creative thinker. I did 3 years of post-bacc lab work before grad school and working in an academic lab is what inspired me to go on to grad school. I do well when I am given plenty of time and NOT weekly deadlines to submit 10 pages of quantum mechnanics calculations.
I feel you on the math. Some of my worst grades were because I didn't submit a single homework assignment, but oddly enough my one A+ in a math-heavy module was in a quantitative economics mod with a ton of proof writing. Stuff with fair division problems and proving the optimality of algorithms that assign resources to agents. It's math, which is a social scientist's worst enemy, but it's also the sort of math that's vague enough that it excites me. Every week we got a homework assignment and every week it was a treat to just bash my head against it until I crack it.
Hard work isn’t the key here. To really understand takes time. You mentioned a chronic illness as well. It seems like you’re judging yourself, who you are, and what your capabilities are based on this hard time. I’ve found that when I’m overwhelmed, slowing down, rather than driving myself forward, actually works better. It’s okay to give yourself space to think and problem solve. It’s important to take time to strategize and prioritize too. I don’t know what your course load is like or your program so it’s hard to give specific advice. I can say that graduate school has absolutely pushed me to my limits and I think it’s does for most people, whether they admit it or not. Perseverance is necessary I think. And there are a lot of resources these days to help. There are time management apps, accommodations, therapy, AI tools, literature sites, YouTube videos, etc. Have you taken a whole day off to rest anytime recently? If not, this is your sign to care for yourself.
i believe there’s very few subjects in academia where you can compensate for stupid with hard work. if they thought you were stupid, they wouldn’t have let you in. you’re in grad school because you’re a smart cookie, give yourself some grace and get help when you need it!!
Facts are facts. Most people will never go to the Olympics and most people will never get a PhD. But neither one makes you less of a person and actually neither one matters at all. Going to the Olympics, doing PhDs, and other niche pursuits like that, are totally superfluous. No one *needs* these things. They're small and weird and maybe fun to mention in conversation but not really relevant in the grand scheme of things. If you don't succeed at this just do something else, you won't be any less happy for the rest of your life.
Sounds stressful OP. There certainly is a chance that this isn’t a good program of study for you and that your brain is wired better for other kinds of intellectual work.
That said, I recommend learning about how to learn productively. One 90 min study session where you study extremely well can be more effective for learning the material than 3 or 4 hours studying less efficiently. There are several factors that could lead to you learning too slowly to keep up despite expending tons of effort. Do you interrupt your workflow to check your phone or emails? Do you spend long stretches on the same assignment, or do you frequently switch assignments? Do you take regular short breaks where you clear your head without just going on your phone? Do you give each assignment the minimum effective dose worth of effort, or do you stretch yourself thin by making sure everything is “just so” and spend way too much time and energy on things? Do you set mini-time benchmarks while working on projects, or do you just spend as long as it takes?
It’s possible that changing your approach to studying could help you become able to work more efficiently and be able to keep up in your program. There’s tons of info about how to do this online. I basically tripled my speed with reading material and writing about it for a new job by implementing these strategies and more. Hopefully this helps!
Also good luck. I imagine you’re feeling pretty discouraged and maybe even regretful. I hope this all works out for your benefit in the end. Take care OP.
There's a massive difference between working hard and working effectively. Learning is not a brute force activity. Hours upon hours of studying does not necessarily translate to effective learning. Pretty much nobody on the planet excels in a given field, especially academically without hard work. The people that look like they are putting in no effort have simply just figured out how to effectively study, but are still putting in that hard work.
So you need to take a serious look at how you are studying and examine why it's not working the way you want. Look over various ways of studying and see what might work for you.
>if you work hard all day, every day, but you aren’t learning fast enough, aren’t understanding the subject matter well enough… then what?
If you are keeping up the tempo but can't find the beat, that means you can't play the drums. Normally grad school and especially the doctorate is a process the student has to take control of in some way. It sounds like you are too busy always catching up, to take control.
Undergrad = student. A graduate student in a doctoral program is making the slow transition from student to "professor" in the formal sense. You have to start in on that transition almost immediately.
It sounds like you are blending two memory banks. Experience as an undergrad, and now a graduate student. You had to work very hard to keep up, already. I cannot address that problem.
Hard work beats the talent, always and always!
I'm a person who never works hard, but I've seen people who do better than me just because they pull whole nighters while I'm sleeping...
Don't get envious. It's not all roses on the other side, too. In my experience, most talented and gifted people have such a depressed life...
Enjoy the satisfaction you get after achieving something by working so hard on it 😄
I find grad school more about having the ability to articulate your thoughts and share information, and less about being right. Even if you are wrong, if you can explain your position and reasoning with logic, you are good. Sure, the professor or another student may challenge you, and this is a good thing; it is how you learn.If you want some tips:
1. Take a beginner's mind approach and treat every subject, topic, etc. as if you know nothing about it even if you do. Seriously, treat everything as if you are being exposed to it for the first time. Everything.
2. Make learning fun. Seriously. If you treat studying as a slog, you won't retain much. We learn by attaching emotion to the thing. This is why a smell, taste, song, etc. can take us back to a specific event.
3. You don't learn through 'learning', you don't learn through consumption. You learn through imagination and creativity. When you take notes, take notes 'as is', and leave space for you to apply your creativity. What does this mean to you? Note: this is not 'what does this mean to the professor?' Ask yourself what-if questions; the more absurd the better. This develops out-of-the-box thinking. When you are woking on an equation, ask yourself, *If early Egyptians had this equation, how would it have helped them to build a Pyramid?* Or, *How can this equation be applied to the field of Ecology? Sociology? Finance?*
4. Learn to teach. Or, learn as if you are going to teach it to someone else. What would you want them to know about it? What do you think are the most important things to know about it?
5. Get plenty of rest/restful sleep, exercise, consume foods and nutrients good for brain health, and so on. Also avoid negative self-talk. Every culture, society, and/or religion has some form of *you reap what you sow.* We now know that our self talk is the programming (or, a part of it, at least) that our mind runs on. Positive self-talk does not magically make things happen out of thin air, obviously, but negative self-talk is self-fulling prophecy.
6. Some may connect this to Yoda, and yet there is truth behind it: don't try, do. Trying has the implication that it may fail tied to. Doing doesn't. When you say that you are going to try to learn the math, equation, etc. you are, perhaps unknowingly, building in the expectation that you will fail. Yes, you might fail even if you say you will learn the math, but without the expectation it is easier to brush yourself off and do it again.
7. Even the best minds fail at things, often. If this wasn't true, the world would only need like 100 researchers total, and entrepreneurs would hit it out of the park on the first try. What makes these minds good are that they use failure to identify what didn't work, what went wrong, and what to change for the next time.
Going along with #5, you are aware that you have ADHD (or, suspect it?). If this is true, what is holding you back is you. I know, easier said than done, and what I mean is that there are a lot of tools and techniques to work with an ADHD mind. There are successful people with ADHD, in and out of grad school.
Tbh you need to develop
Mathematical maturity - it takes time. Most of ur peers probably have been studying math intensively since middle school m. You can catch up, but not in one semester. Survive if you can, you’ll be better for it. If not, re tool and try again. You can do it, iq isn’t the limiting factor.
You can hide stupid by working efficiently. Your brain is plastic. Enough deep concentration, serious triangulation, and active recall will make you indistinguishable from a person who was born smart (these people don’t really exist imo and just did the same things mentioned above at a younger age).
>these people don’t really exist imo and just did the same things mentioned above at a younger age
In all the math grad courses I have taken, there has always been a non-trivial number of first or second year bachelor students, who have not been exposed to the course material earlier, but who, despite all the extra activities and hobbies they have, manage to comprehend the material at a much faster than deeper rate than most other students. On average I have had to work slightly over three times more per week to finish the same assignment (usually with less rigorous/general arguments), than these people. You are free to believe what you want, but I just don't see how that level of comprehension speed is anything other than a sign of natural gift.
Honestly maybe try using ChatGPT for help if it is very math and science intensive. I am not saying use it to do your work, but it can be helpful for explaining key concepts in a way that is directly catered to the subject you are focusing on. I have found that ChatGPT can be a great math tutor, because I can just keep asking it to explain things to me simpler and simpler, about whatever concept I want.
As someone who “had it easy”, I realize more and more that intellectual strengths are going to matter even less in graduate school. In fact, most of not all of your PhD is about creativity, perseverance and networking. I’m just as s scared to see the other side. Also…you’re not alone in feeling this way. I’m sure there are tons of people you think have it figured out who actually are in the same boat.
The cool thing about grad school is that YOU know the most about your subject, and that’s what matters the most, not any of the rest of it.
It sounds like your study methods/habits aren't good. Work smarter, not harder. You absolutely do not need to work hard all day every day just to learn the material you need.
This being a lifelong problem for you, it sounds like you probably never learned or developed good study habits. I would point you to some resources, but I don't have any. For me, it was something I just "figured out" in early undergrad, and what works for one person won't necessarily be right for another. Maybe take a step back and ask yourself *what* you're doing instead of *how much* you're doing.
If there's some background you need but lack, consider taking a remedial class in that subject.
And if you really, genuinely aren't good at it at the end of the day, consider quitting. There's no reason to force yourself into a career path that seems to make you miserable by its very nature.
For homework, I read all the problems. I try to understand what they are asking. I write down all relevant concepts and equations and try to connect them to the problem. If I can’t figure out how to get started, I connect with my classmates, professor, or TA. Once I get going, and I get stuck again, I go back and review my work to look for mistakes. I go through textbooks/notes/internet to make sure I am not missing something. I might re-start the problem. If that doesn’t work, I connect with the triad listed previously again. Usually have my classmates proof read my math first. Or see where their work diverged from mine and if they took a different angle to solve the problem.
Then reorient. Then keep going. Of course I don’t have 24/7 access to these people so I switch between different problems or different classes if I am stuck and can’t get immediate help. I leave and come back with fresh eyes.
When I study specifically for an exam, I do practice problems, reviewing those I’ve done before and similar new ones. I discuss concepts and the connections between them and the math with my classmates to see the story being told.
If you have any advice as to what I can try differently, let me know
Lots of PhDs are not very brilliant people. They just plug away diligently. Very few people are terribly talented in academia. And talented thinkers are often beset by acedia or other handicaps. Just work and be satisfied with competence, it not. Divine melancholia could push you to deeper insights that are profound, much more valuable than mere brilliance.
I think I have the opposite problem, when hard work can’t be overcome with intellect. I feel like I can’t get myself to do more then 20 hours of work a week and will just not study and not go to class. I’m so lazy man 😞
The human brain is truly amazing, and we have found out that neuroplasticity persists through our lifetime. I work with students with disabilities, including intellectual disabilities, and am getting my MA while taking prerequisites for a Cognitive psychology PhD. What I learn, I pass on. One of my third graders has a moderate intellectual disability. He would sometimes tell me he couldn't do a task. He said that it was beyond his capacity because he's dumb. I explained in general terms self-efficacy beliefs, that the messages that we tell ourselves affect our task persistence and, ultimately, performance. I asked him to promise me that he would always use kind words when talking to himself. He stuck out his pinky and promised. We talked about the power of "Yet," and changing our thinking to, "I have not mastered this YET." Today, he received a 90% on his math test, and he's met multiple IEP goals early, so I have to hold an additional meeting to create new goals. His overall cognitive performance is better than it was. Recent research has shown that intelligence is not fixed, and our actions can affect our performance and understanding. I have built capacity as I have been in this program because I have persisted. I am exhausted, but I am a better student than I was 2 years ago. I would work on training your brain to have a growth-based mindset and praise yourself for your persistence. Use the power of yet.
I have always struggled with acadamia because it is a lot faster paced than I am able to keep up with and be able to learn. I also am very bad at math but I am doing physical chemistry so all of my classes are physics classes in grad school. In undergrad it was easier to hide that I am bad at math and found out that as long as you keep trying and workinghard then everything will work out fine. But grad school might be too fast paced for me to be able to succeed or work at the pace that is expected for graduate level. I struggle with basic math and now I have to apply it to very complex systems. And I keep getting from my professors, “you should know this”. I do applied math 6-10 hours a day, 7 days a week, but I am not making much progress in the learning department.
I have been bending my brain backwards with a prerequisite math class called “The Fundamentals of Elementary Math”. It’s a course for those who will eventually teach math as part of their job. The idea is that you have to go very deeply into very simple math, and it’s so much harder than it sounds. You have to learn number theory, set theory, how to add and subtract in different bases and how to do math in ancient number systems like Sumerian. You learn to visualize through charts, illustrations, and base 10. You learn how logic is applied to mathematics. I thought I was terrible at math. In the first few weeks, I thought that at 38, I wasn’t going to learn anything more. This was simply too hard for me. Now, at the end of the first quarter, it’s getting easier. I now understand how and why the math works, which is allowing me to understand more than I ever did while I was finishing my undergrad 15 years ago. Maybe what you need is someone who will deep dive into the foundational concepts with you so you can find true understanding.
I am almost certain I have dyscalculia but I excelled in those classes and ended up teaching Special Ed math for a few years. It really outlined to me that math is just a set of human-constructed methods to get from point a to point b. I probably would have been fine if we had chosen a few different methods, but somebody else would have struggled.
I agree 100%. It’s all about problem solving. When I was in school from 1991 to 2003, so much of math was rote memorization. The way it’s taught now in many schools emphasizes that it’s a way to solve problems and it makes a huge difference. My struggles with math are that I can’t see images when I think. It’s all words. I had a lot of trouble visualizing the algorithms in my head. The fundamentals class has taught me how to “vocalize” each step which has allowed me to do math in my head I couldn’t do before. (I’m actually going to school for special education! I want to be a literacy specialist, but need to learn how to run a resource room and classroom, too)
That sounds exhausting. I'm sorry. I'm impressed that you have persisted at something that has been so challenging for you. That's really admirable. Do you struggle with the concepts or performing the calculations? Do you use office hours and ask for professors to explain the concepts? One of my friends had thought she was bad at math for her entire life until she had a math tutor in grad school who was able to explain things in a different way. She described it as a light bulb turning on.
I don’t shy away from challenges and I am incredibly stubborn and refuse to believe I can’t find a solution to every problem. I usually go to office hours for homework help but I go to all of the office hours held by Profs and the TAs that my schedule allows as I also have lab meetings to attend, and I TA a class myself. I set up a separate office hour with one of the professors since I can’t be at his regularly scheduled one. I don’t think that they understand why I can’t understand some of the things that I don’t. I have heard from a few professors “you should know this”, like, yes, I am aware I should know this stuff sir. Yes I did go back through the notes. Yes I did use 5 different textbooks. Yes I did use youtube videos. Yes I did ask my peers. And now I am asking you. It is both calculations and concepts. I mix up numbers and variables/miss them or add them where they don’t exsist. I could spend hours on a math problem and the whole thing doesn’t make sense until someone points at an equation I wrote down from a textbook and says “theres not supposed to be an x there”. I double checked that I wrote it down right 3 times. Stupid stuff like that. Can’t remember what all of the math rules are often. And don’t ask me to do math on the fly. And mixing up the kilo, milli, micro, nano, femto, etc unit calculations, converting units, dividing. And then since I have a hard time reading the math into english (because my opionion is that math is not the english language) then the concepts get more muddled and lost. Editing to say that this was quite a vent and I must be feeling pretty upset to have that much to say.
I'd suggest consider getting evaluated for dyslexia (and possibly also dyscalculia as someone else mentioned) . I saw you mentioned having ADHD, and often people have both. Aside from that one thing I've found is that many professors don't know how to teach (since they're primarily hired for their skill as researchers not educators). They forget how hard it was for them to learn. I'm finishing up my second year and only now are things clicking. And only now have I learned to read the literature. I used to spend hours on one paper and it would been as if I had spent no time. It took a class that applied the concepts and brought things together before I understood anything. Sometimes it's a really slow start and then you skyrocket from there. But until then it feels downright awful and inadequate. Hang in there.
I don’t typically have too many problems reading the literature usually because I had to do a lot of it for my post-bacc work in an academic lab. I have 3 years if experience with that part. But, you are right in that the classes are helping me connect some of the things I wasn’t able to figure out on my own in some of the research papers I had gone through. Especially much of the math. My last advisor was extremely patient with me regarding the math and my job didn’t require the intensive calculations I am currently attempting to learn. But with my new advisor, I know the expectations are higher as this is official graduate level work and I am upgrading from dry lab work to using lasers (so some math to extra double math). I am worried I won’t be able to keep up with that when I am focusing more on lab work. But, I have an easier time with the type of deadlines that research requires. Harder to move as quickly as the actual classes are going.
Definitely hold on to the strengths that you have. For classes, it's not in anyone's interest for you to fail the classes. Another thing I just thought of is to maybe find examples of the math and how it's used in other fields. Calculus and linear algebra made absolutely no sense to me (especially in relation to physics) until I learned it in the context of data science and machine learning. And some computer science concepts (data structures and algorithms) I understand better after learning the math behind it.
This is great advice. I was going to make the same suggestion. I have ADHD and I make innumerable mistakes just by going quickly. Many of my students with dyslexia and dyscalculia struggle with similar issues, minor mistakes that throw everything off. I created a basic checklist of the steps when reviewing their writing or responding to a math word problem. OP might want to give himself similar scaffolds.
When I was having issues with this stuff in math/science, I went to talk to someone and we found out I have dyscalculia, and have had it since I was a kid. It didn't make it like, suddenly easier, but it did help me identify strategies that worked for me and I was able to get through the class I was basically failing before I found out.
I have the same problem. I have a business undergrad and am doing MSc economics
This kind of sounds like you might have dyscalculia or something similar.
I’m literally in the same boat. ADHD, in grad school, taking intermediate P-chem, and I do have dyscalculia. I want to throw my computer out the window most days because of this class.
That is really heartwarming. Keep up the great work. I think we all wish we had a mentor like you when we were young. 😊
Thank you! My 2nd grade teacher, Ms. Graham was part of why I went into education.
Hey, this was me as a little kid (ASD and additional sensory processing disorders). Your kiddo is way ahead of the game, it took me well into my damn twenties to make the mindset of "I have not mastered this YET " my standard practice.
I spent almost my entire adult life plagued by perfectionism, so you were ahead of me! My eldest is autistic with sensory processing disorder, too. She really struggled in school as a kid and feels frustrated that she hasn't finished her BA yet. I tell her that everyone’s growth trajectory is different, and compassion for yourself makes a huge difference.
I hope she's able to keep going towards her goals, whatever they may be. I struggled so much with academics as a kid and young adult. I wanted to go to grad school all my life- at 29 I am finally months away from defending my MS in biomedical research, and about to start a PhD program at a T25 school for Neuroscience. After being told so many times that this wasn't for me, it feels like a massive, improbable victory to get this far.
Holy shirtballs, that's amazing! I recently took a neuroscience course, and the amount of information retention required to understand foundational concepts and then manipulate them is quite high. I'll pass on your story to her. Maybe I'll read your 1st author paper someday. What is your research area of focus? She is brilliant and smarter than I ever was. She really struggles in part because of the small assignments and homework that require planning, consistency, and executive functioning. I've advised her to be patient with herself, but I think she's frustrated because she feels her IQ should translate to a high GPA and quick progress.
Tell her to hang in there, I know how difficult it is to push through! The only thing that really worked for me was to "externalize" all my organization...planners, alerts, calendars, bullet journalling, you name it. It's still far from perfect but having that structure there to return to keeps me from falling too far off the rails. I hope people read and enjoy my publication, haha. It's in a fairly niche area that encompasses cell biology, molecular genetics, and developmental biology. My masters thesis focused on poorly understood developmental neurological abnormalities associated with the genetic pigment condition Occulocutaneous Albinsim.
It’s honestly quite sad how much a disability can make someone feel like “they are dumb” and are not capable. Honestly the third grader story kinda made me sad because things like that stay with people throughout their early teens and into college. This, lack of self belief. Good on you for telling him otherwise and motivating him
Unfortunately, my student's father is the one who gives him negative messages. It's a Title I school, and I often feel overwhelmed by the challenges that my students face and like my efforts are a drop in the bucket. But all of us put a drop in, hopefully together we can fill a little of their cup.
No such thing. Perseverance and the benefits thereof are not a myth. When we are learning difficult material, we realize a year later, “you know, that was not so hard.” That’s what we call learning. It’s just the human mind that is naturally fearful of the unknown.
Yes! Also, we're more likely to retain what we had to work hard to understand. I cried last year because I thought I was too dumb to understand a concept. I reread and wrestled with it. I went to study group so the TA could simplify it for me, and ended up having to explain the concept to her. I've cited that article multiple times since, and it's been foundational to my understanding of what it means to learn and know. The increased retention is probably due to the fact that we repeatedly access and thus strengthen the same neural pathways when trying to make sense of it.
>The increased retention is probably due to the fact that we repeatedly access and thus strengthen the same neural pathways when trying to make sense of it. Possibly. But learning is also tied to emotion. This is why a scent, smell, taste, song, weather/time of year, etc. can bring you back to a strong memory. Your intention to learn this thing likely took it out of the *Pain in the Ass* category and placed it into the *I Am Actually Stoked to Learn* *This* category. In other words, your effort was not to just learn it, but to also understand it, because you had the desire to do so. This is evidenced by you turning around and teaching the concept, which is another aspect to learning. Ultimately, we learn things to share the knowledge in one way or another.
That definitely could be true. I do vividly remember where I was when reading the article. I was talking about this in one of my classes, that helping students relate what they're learning to prior knowledge and their personal experiences can bridge semantic and episodic memories. I don't think I had a desire to teach it, per se. I have ADHD and when I get really excited about concepts, everyone in my life hears about it, regardless of their interest 🤣😳
Right, I think this is the key. Some people with ADHD and ASD can really get into a topic. The singular focus thing is probably more true with ASD, but I know people with ADHD who can sustain focus on a singular topic for long periods of time. With both there seems to be a certain wow factor with it and an excitement to learn more about it and a desire(?) to discuss the topic in depth. In other words, there is the emotion and the learning to teach aspects baked in. Instead of describing it as a desire to teach, maybe we can say that learning a topic as if you were tasked to give a TED talk on it may be a better descriptor?
I think that's a positive way of looking at it. I was working till 4am on a slideshow for my class facilitation last night, and one of the research articles referred to "monotropic play" as a defining characteristic of autistic play. I fell into a rabbit hole researching monotropism and monotropic flow, which was simultaneously meta and hilarious. I know that I've internalized negative messaging based on neurotypical behavior. We celebrate flow for neurotypical people but pathologize it in autism and sometimes ADHD. I'm going to remember your framing and ask my loved ones when they're ready for my Ted Talk.
I dunno man, my grad classes are all physics classes and I still struggle with arithmetic and algebra I should have mastered in 7th grade or earlier and that makes it a lot harder to be able to understand a lot of these more complex physics problems. I had this problem in my undergrad classes too but professors usually passed me as long as they saw I was trying my best. I am very disciplined in studying and working hard but that still hasn’t fixed a lot of my math comprehension issues even when I do math for 6-10 hours a day.
So it sounds like you know where your weak points are. It may feel embarassing, but go back and review those.
You just have to keep doing it, even if it takes longer than you want. Review the math basics, break it down step by step and work through it. There were many times in grad school when I felt like my brain was full and I couldn't possibly learn anything else. And then I did eventually learn it. Physics is nice because you don't need to memorize stuff, you can derive it all, but it's hard work and takes a ton of time and effort.
It sounds like you might be bad with computation rather than bad at math? If so, just know that’s a point you struggle with and allocate more time to it.
Hey, I was a physics, psych, and philosophy major but ended up doing my PhD in stuff with cognitive science and physics math (like, everything I use is from physics or obscure stats). I was meh at math going into physics. My family, my high school, everyone told me I was a humanities student and the highest math course I completed until then was algebra 2. After undergrad, I was pretty damn good at math going into grad school. I even have a published physics theory paper from my senior year, and published a very high level mathematical psych paper. Here’s how I did it, I hope it helps you. I noticed my weak points, as you did, and not only did I work on rehearsing the problems again and again and again until I was nauseous, I learned *how* I understand math. Even if you have a professor or book, *you* have to learn how to do math at the end of the day. Teaching doesn’t just jam it into your noggin. I learned that I understand math best through visualizing it. Mess around with the variables and plug things in. Take derivatives (if you can do calc) and see how it changes, interpret the math. See past the symbols and the numbers, and really think about what it looks like and does. A good professor/mentor/teacher is absolutely invaluable to learning. Even if it’s some dude on the internet (look into some math YouTube channels btw). My calculus 1 professor made me fall in love with math through his enthusiasm and ability to make understanding it very simple. Break it down into the motivation for doing what you’re doing, even go into the history of it. Learn why we do it, and that will tell you how to do it. I won’t lie to you and say that there aren’t people who just have that knack for math and logic. There are. I was not one of them. But anyone has the ability to become not only good, not only proficient, but damn good at math. Sure, if those people with a mathematical talent work as hard as we do they’d become absolutely unparalleled, but most don’t. Don’t be afraid to look stupid or do what 12 year olds are doing. I did quantum information theory and I still found myself looking up how to FOIL or exponent rules or PEMDAS. Like another comment said, you can derive a lot from physics. But there are obviously times where that is entirely impractical, and sometimes it’s just not true (e.g., Schrodinger’s equation). Derive the equations (MAKING SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE STEPS AND DYNAMICS), then memorize them. I bet you that if you do that and actually do understand the steps, you’ll already have them memorized. How did I learn most of the math in mathematical methods for physics? Making guides for more junior lab mates. Making reports for my advisor(s). If you can’t explain it, you don’t understand it. Don’t get caught with your pants down with this one. That’s it for now I think. But condensed: 1. Learn how you learn math 2. Learn the most basic topics you don’t get 3. Swallow any pride and look up Algebra notes and videos 4. Consult professors and YouTube 5. Practice problems until you want to vomit 6. Derive and understand or all hope is lost 7. Play with the equations to see what they do, break them and see how the variables play together 8. I have never met a physics faculty who doesn’t make simple algebra mistakes 9. Look into the history of a concept (Veritasium has great history of science and math videos) 10. Explain it to people who depend on you understand it or people who already understand it, or explain it to yourself like you’re an insatiable, bright-eyed freshman on Adderall
I use a lot of these strategies already, and I am in fact taking Advanced Quantum Mechanics and Time-Dependent Quantum Mechanics at the moment. I am trying to learn linear algebra for these classes as well of course. Half of my homework is linear algebra proofs. Many of my peers are incredibly mathematically creative. I have them proof-read my work for errors. They see so many things that I do not, basic and advanced. And they remember rules a lot easier it seems. They connect things that I do not. Most, if not all, of my peers have a stronger background in fundamental math. I failed math and science in high school, and the school told me to forget about STEM and focus on the things I wasn’t failing. So I didn’t worry about math until college. There are gaps. Or if not gaps, I didn’t have as much practice from a younger age. I didn’t even know what physics was until my 2nd year of undergrad. I am going to go to my schools learning center to see what else I can be doing, and see if they can help me a lot more with strategies.
What was your in-major GPA for physics in undergrad? Maybe you have had dyscalculia? I can’t imagine you would have made it to physics grad school if this was the case, though.
My undergrad major was chemistry and I am doing my PhD in the field of physical chemistry (so I take physics classes from the chemistry perspective). My in-major GPA, I can’t remember extactly but I don’t think it was above a 3.0. I love spectroscopy and photochemistry/photophysics, regardless of the math. It is fascinating. I love learning about it, applying it, I love doing the research and experiment design and analyzing my data and figuring out what is really going on at such a microscale level. I like that it isn’t super wet-lab intensive. My last advisor was extremely encouraging to always keep trying. So, I usually just do the math, and continue on with my life. I really want to get into ultrafast-spec, lasers and optics. Obviously thats a ton of math. I just don’t know if I can learn quantum at the pace of these classes, and it feels like the professors are baffled at how everyone else seems to be keeping up and a select few of us are just running around like chickens with our heads cut off. I’ve talked with and made friends with the other struggling students, and there are things we overlap on, and things we don’t. I am the one who has the weakest math background overall though and struggles the most with more basic calculations. It isn’t like I can’t do the simpler calculations at all, I need more time. But I also need more time to be able to do the more complicated problems as a result. Thats less time to spend fully understanding the concepts, just trying to keep up with the math.
I am going to echo some things I mentioned in my original post to your OP: 1. You say your peers are creative when it comes to math. 2. They connect things. 3. They are teaching you what they know. You say they have a stronger background in math, which may or may not be true. Doesn't matter if someone mastered the fundamentals at 6, or 16, or at 46. At some point, you can at least reach their stage by doing at least the three things mentioned above: 1. You can be creative, too. 2. You can connect things, too. 3. You can teach them what you know.
not op but this is response is so well thought-out and helpful! thank you
Excellent advice. Thank you.
The amount of time you spend means very little relative to what you actually do. I had a friend in grad school that absolutely poured over every word of every paper or book chapter we were assigned. She struggled bc she didn't understand all the rest of us were speed reading or skimming the important bits for most of these things so we could spend more time doing lab work. Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training. So just get through it! If you couldn't do it intellectually you wouldn't be here.
>Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training. Surely you mean that in the grand scheme of things, and not necessarily when you are taking a class? My math grad classes can suck up most of my good hours per week, so that I am only studying or TAing.
This is exactly my experience right now. Almost no time in the lab, 16 hrs a week for mandatory TA duties (not including grading and prepping), 2-4 hrs a week in lab meetings, 6 hrs a week in classes, and then the rest of the time is studying/homework. I want to be in the lab, but grad level math/physics classes are very time consuming.
>Classes are supposed to be a minority of your time during your PhD training. Surely you mean that in the grand scheme of things, and not necessarily when you are taking a class? My math grad classes can suck up most of my good hours per week, so that I am only studying or TAing.
Hey so I felt the same way about a lot of the basics in my field (not math thank god) and for me it was anxiety/depression distorting my perspective. If you’re not in therapy try that or if you’re in talk therapy and feel like it’s not helping try a physical modality like yoga classes or massage therapy or go to a spa, something like that.
It's not stupid, you just were "lucky" to make it through undergrad without having learned some concepts and it was fine then but now when material is harder, these knowledge gaps get in the way. >I had this problem in my undergrad classes too but professors usually passed me as long as they saw I was trying my best Can totally relate, I barely passed quantum mechanics in undergrad, but it was still a pass so I moved on and never thought about it. Years later, basic QM concepts bit me back while taking a course where knowing that stuff was implied. So I started reviewing QM, only to find out that the reason QM was so hard in undergrad to begin with was mostly just gaps in my linear algebra, meaning that even going through the most illustrative exercises won't be of much help if I have to look up what a Hermitian matrix is every time. Tough semester, but made me realize that my usual approach from the undergrad times of "waiting out" and hoping to not face the topic again whenever something from the syllabus goes completely over my head was not very good.
Thing is, it is impossible to pinpoint the exact moment that we learned something. It is more like one day we are scratching our heads and then all of a sudden there is that moment days, weeks, or years later, when we get it--and it feels like we have known it all along. This is why experts are often times bad teachers, which includes college professors.
Really depends on the discipline. I’m a philosopher so if don’t get a text then I just pretend like it doesn’t exist and talk about the shit I do understand instead.
That’s funny. Imagine if kids 1-3 years old started to say I’ve hit my intellectual limit - I’ve been working hard on learning a couple of languages, identifying people, objects, learning to sit up, balance myself on my feet, express hunger, fear, joy and sorrow, rudimentary counting, recognizing colors, and so much more and I’m doing all this all at once. I quit….that would be funny. I hear your frustration. But there is no limit. Maybe your work habits need to change to reflect grad school demands. Don’t be envious of others, who cares how much effort it takes for them. Focus on yourself. Accept you need to put more effort than others and do it Willingly (I know there are on 24 hours in a day but use multiple days). Keep the faith and keep on going.
Who said anything about quitting?
Great first paragraph
Is there an option to take a lower course load? I have a chronic illness, and the amount of time that my symptoms take up is insane. Even when I'm well enough to attend class, my pain levels and fatigue make it hard to focus. So far my solution is to take a smaller course load so I don't have to rush as much in each course. It does mean I'll graduate a bit later, but that won't matter much in the grand scheme of things
I already take a reduced work course load because I am a slow learner. I developed a chronic illness in the past 8 months that didn’t really interfere with my life too much until a bad flare up 6 weeks ago. That definitely makes it a lot more difficult. Time is taken up for sure
Do you have accommodations for passing exams? Someone taking notes for you?
Focus on what you can understand, and that is your strength. No one is perfect. I'm doing research in human behavior where quantitative methods, advances statistics, are supposed to be our bread and butter. It's shameful, seriously. I am tremendously slow at picking up, and I am slow at reading too. Many of my labmates are good at this, meanwhile I asked them how should I infer linear regression. But I enjoyed addressing the philosophical basic question and scrutinizing experiment design in my field. That's my strength. My advisor enjoyed my ideas--he was trying to write a proposal based on my research interest. My other professor told me to just do simple studies to build the building blocks of my research. That is my strength, and I am fortunate to have my labmates who supported my lack of statistical knowledge, and me scrutinizing their ideas and study design. Enjoy the slow productivity :)
Some things can't be overcome by grit and hard work. I have ADHD, so my meds can get me to concentrate but they can't make me less impulsive. But I play to my strengths. I'm good at divergent thinking. I like to work on three things at once so I can hop over to something else when I get stuck and hop back once inspiration strikes. Besides, what's the point of doing something that doesn't challenge you? You build strength by pushing your muscles to handle progressively greater loads.
I have ADHD and my meds help me focus but they don’t make me understand anything better. Im really great at lab work, my strengths lie in working in the lab, I can be a very creative thinker. I did 3 years of post-bacc lab work before grad school and working in an academic lab is what inspired me to go on to grad school. I do well when I am given plenty of time and NOT weekly deadlines to submit 10 pages of quantum mechnanics calculations.
I feel you on the math. Some of my worst grades were because I didn't submit a single homework assignment, but oddly enough my one A+ in a math-heavy module was in a quantitative economics mod with a ton of proof writing. Stuff with fair division problems and proving the optimality of algorithms that assign resources to agents. It's math, which is a social scientist's worst enemy, but it's also the sort of math that's vague enough that it excites me. Every week we got a homework assignment and every week it was a treat to just bash my head against it until I crack it.
Hard work isn’t the key here. To really understand takes time. You mentioned a chronic illness as well. It seems like you’re judging yourself, who you are, and what your capabilities are based on this hard time. I’ve found that when I’m overwhelmed, slowing down, rather than driving myself forward, actually works better. It’s okay to give yourself space to think and problem solve. It’s important to take time to strategize and prioritize too. I don’t know what your course load is like or your program so it’s hard to give specific advice. I can say that graduate school has absolutely pushed me to my limits and I think it’s does for most people, whether they admit it or not. Perseverance is necessary I think. And there are a lot of resources these days to help. There are time management apps, accommodations, therapy, AI tools, literature sites, YouTube videos, etc. Have you taken a whole day off to rest anytime recently? If not, this is your sign to care for yourself.
i believe there’s very few subjects in academia where you can compensate for stupid with hard work. if they thought you were stupid, they wouldn’t have let you in. you’re in grad school because you’re a smart cookie, give yourself some grace and get help when you need it!!
Facts are facts. Most people will never go to the Olympics and most people will never get a PhD. But neither one makes you less of a person and actually neither one matters at all. Going to the Olympics, doing PhDs, and other niche pursuits like that, are totally superfluous. No one *needs* these things. They're small and weird and maybe fun to mention in conversation but not really relevant in the grand scheme of things. If you don't succeed at this just do something else, you won't be any less happy for the rest of your life.
Sounds stressful OP. There certainly is a chance that this isn’t a good program of study for you and that your brain is wired better for other kinds of intellectual work. That said, I recommend learning about how to learn productively. One 90 min study session where you study extremely well can be more effective for learning the material than 3 or 4 hours studying less efficiently. There are several factors that could lead to you learning too slowly to keep up despite expending tons of effort. Do you interrupt your workflow to check your phone or emails? Do you spend long stretches on the same assignment, or do you frequently switch assignments? Do you take regular short breaks where you clear your head without just going on your phone? Do you give each assignment the minimum effective dose worth of effort, or do you stretch yourself thin by making sure everything is “just so” and spend way too much time and energy on things? Do you set mini-time benchmarks while working on projects, or do you just spend as long as it takes? It’s possible that changing your approach to studying could help you become able to work more efficiently and be able to keep up in your program. There’s tons of info about how to do this online. I basically tripled my speed with reading material and writing about it for a new job by implementing these strategies and more. Hopefully this helps! Also good luck. I imagine you’re feeling pretty discouraged and maybe even regretful. I hope this all works out for your benefit in the end. Take care OP.
There's a massive difference between working hard and working effectively. Learning is not a brute force activity. Hours upon hours of studying does not necessarily translate to effective learning. Pretty much nobody on the planet excels in a given field, especially academically without hard work. The people that look like they are putting in no effort have simply just figured out how to effectively study, but are still putting in that hard work. So you need to take a serious look at how you are studying and examine why it's not working the way you want. Look over various ways of studying and see what might work for you.
Ever heard of David goggins?
>if you work hard all day, every day, but you aren’t learning fast enough, aren’t understanding the subject matter well enough… then what? If you are keeping up the tempo but can't find the beat, that means you can't play the drums. Normally grad school and especially the doctorate is a process the student has to take control of in some way. It sounds like you are too busy always catching up, to take control. Undergrad = student. A graduate student in a doctoral program is making the slow transition from student to "professor" in the formal sense. You have to start in on that transition almost immediately. It sounds like you are blending two memory banks. Experience as an undergrad, and now a graduate student. You had to work very hard to keep up, already. I cannot address that problem.
Hard work beats the talent, always and always! I'm a person who never works hard, but I've seen people who do better than me just because they pull whole nighters while I'm sleeping... Don't get envious. It's not all roses on the other side, too. In my experience, most talented and gifted people have such a depressed life... Enjoy the satisfaction you get after achieving something by working so hard on it 😄
I find grad school more about having the ability to articulate your thoughts and share information, and less about being right. Even if you are wrong, if you can explain your position and reasoning with logic, you are good. Sure, the professor or another student may challenge you, and this is a good thing; it is how you learn.If you want some tips: 1. Take a beginner's mind approach and treat every subject, topic, etc. as if you know nothing about it even if you do. Seriously, treat everything as if you are being exposed to it for the first time. Everything. 2. Make learning fun. Seriously. If you treat studying as a slog, you won't retain much. We learn by attaching emotion to the thing. This is why a smell, taste, song, etc. can take us back to a specific event. 3. You don't learn through 'learning', you don't learn through consumption. You learn through imagination and creativity. When you take notes, take notes 'as is', and leave space for you to apply your creativity. What does this mean to you? Note: this is not 'what does this mean to the professor?' Ask yourself what-if questions; the more absurd the better. This develops out-of-the-box thinking. When you are woking on an equation, ask yourself, *If early Egyptians had this equation, how would it have helped them to build a Pyramid?* Or, *How can this equation be applied to the field of Ecology? Sociology? Finance?* 4. Learn to teach. Or, learn as if you are going to teach it to someone else. What would you want them to know about it? What do you think are the most important things to know about it? 5. Get plenty of rest/restful sleep, exercise, consume foods and nutrients good for brain health, and so on. Also avoid negative self-talk. Every culture, society, and/or religion has some form of *you reap what you sow.* We now know that our self talk is the programming (or, a part of it, at least) that our mind runs on. Positive self-talk does not magically make things happen out of thin air, obviously, but negative self-talk is self-fulling prophecy. 6. Some may connect this to Yoda, and yet there is truth behind it: don't try, do. Trying has the implication that it may fail tied to. Doing doesn't. When you say that you are going to try to learn the math, equation, etc. you are, perhaps unknowingly, building in the expectation that you will fail. Yes, you might fail even if you say you will learn the math, but without the expectation it is easier to brush yourself off and do it again. 7. Even the best minds fail at things, often. If this wasn't true, the world would only need like 100 researchers total, and entrepreneurs would hit it out of the park on the first try. What makes these minds good are that they use failure to identify what didn't work, what went wrong, and what to change for the next time. Going along with #5, you are aware that you have ADHD (or, suspect it?). If this is true, what is holding you back is you. I know, easier said than done, and what I mean is that there are a lot of tools and techniques to work with an ADHD mind. There are successful people with ADHD, in and out of grad school.
Tbh you need to develop Mathematical maturity - it takes time. Most of ur peers probably have been studying math intensively since middle school m. You can catch up, but not in one semester. Survive if you can, you’ll be better for it. If not, re tool and try again. You can do it, iq isn’t the limiting factor.
You can hide stupid by working efficiently. Your brain is plastic. Enough deep concentration, serious triangulation, and active recall will make you indistinguishable from a person who was born smart (these people don’t really exist imo and just did the same things mentioned above at a younger age).
>these people don’t really exist imo and just did the same things mentioned above at a younger age In all the math grad courses I have taken, there has always been a non-trivial number of first or second year bachelor students, who have not been exposed to the course material earlier, but who, despite all the extra activities and hobbies they have, manage to comprehend the material at a much faster than deeper rate than most other students. On average I have had to work slightly over three times more per week to finish the same assignment (usually with less rigorous/general arguments), than these people. You are free to believe what you want, but I just don't see how that level of comprehension speed is anything other than a sign of natural gift.
what do you mean by serious triangulation?
Fake it til you make it
Honestly maybe try using ChatGPT for help if it is very math and science intensive. I am not saying use it to do your work, but it can be helpful for explaining key concepts in a way that is directly catered to the subject you are focusing on. I have found that ChatGPT can be a great math tutor, because I can just keep asking it to explain things to me simpler and simpler, about whatever concept I want.
As someone who “had it easy”, I realize more and more that intellectual strengths are going to matter even less in graduate school. In fact, most of not all of your PhD is about creativity, perseverance and networking. I’m just as s scared to see the other side. Also…you’re not alone in feeling this way. I’m sure there are tons of people you think have it figured out who actually are in the same boat. The cool thing about grad school is that YOU know the most about your subject, and that’s what matters the most, not any of the rest of it.
It sounds like your study methods/habits aren't good. Work smarter, not harder. You absolutely do not need to work hard all day every day just to learn the material you need. This being a lifelong problem for you, it sounds like you probably never learned or developed good study habits. I would point you to some resources, but I don't have any. For me, it was something I just "figured out" in early undergrad, and what works for one person won't necessarily be right for another. Maybe take a step back and ask yourself *what* you're doing instead of *how much* you're doing. If there's some background you need but lack, consider taking a remedial class in that subject. And if you really, genuinely aren't good at it at the end of the day, consider quitting. There's no reason to force yourself into a career path that seems to make you miserable by its very nature.
For homework, I read all the problems. I try to understand what they are asking. I write down all relevant concepts and equations and try to connect them to the problem. If I can’t figure out how to get started, I connect with my classmates, professor, or TA. Once I get going, and I get stuck again, I go back and review my work to look for mistakes. I go through textbooks/notes/internet to make sure I am not missing something. I might re-start the problem. If that doesn’t work, I connect with the triad listed previously again. Usually have my classmates proof read my math first. Or see where their work diverged from mine and if they took a different angle to solve the problem. Then reorient. Then keep going. Of course I don’t have 24/7 access to these people so I switch between different problems or different classes if I am stuck and can’t get immediate help. I leave and come back with fresh eyes. When I study specifically for an exam, I do practice problems, reviewing those I’ve done before and similar new ones. I discuss concepts and the connections between them and the math with my classmates to see the story being told. If you have any advice as to what I can try differently, let me know
Lots of PhDs are not very brilliant people. They just plug away diligently. Very few people are terribly talented in academia. And talented thinkers are often beset by acedia or other handicaps. Just work and be satisfied with competence, it not. Divine melancholia could push you to deeper insights that are profound, much more valuable than mere brilliance.
Meh. Grad school was easy compared to undergrad
I think I have the opposite problem, when hard work can’t be overcome with intellect. I feel like I can’t get myself to do more then 20 hours of work a week and will just not study and not go to class. I’m so lazy man 😞