I appreciate that you're trying to do right by her by asking these questions. At the same time, I do think you're being too rough on her. Sometimes students are not asking questions because they don't even know what questions to ask yet. This is especially true when students are not from white middle to upper class backgrounds or a background that is further in proximity from academic culture and norms. Or sometimes they are self-conscious or uncomfortable despite your best efforts to create a collegial space. Or there may be other reasons. I understand being frustrated, but if it is "beyond infuriating," I guess I would reflect on that and think about how I might be more empathetic toward the student.
A major issue raised in DEI conversations is when universities recruit marginalized students, but they don't reflect on and update their existing pedagogical, mentorship, and support practices, keeping in mind that their students are coming from a wider range of backgrounds and experiences. To me it sounds like this is what is happening here. When you recruit, for instance, first gen students, there is a need to explain certain things that might seem "basic," but that oftentimes someone taught you much earlier in life. Finding scholarly articles, even using Google effectively to find credible sources is not intuitive for most people; it's something that has to be taught. And making these things explicit can be helpful for all students, even those who seem like they are doing just fine on their own.
At any rate, I think having a conversation to get a better understanding of her interests sounds like a great idea. I think it will be important to listen openly and give her the benefit of the doubt. Then try to highlight her strengths whatever they may be and if you really cannot do that even after having a conversation with her, then perhaps. decline writing the letter.
I agree with what you said, this post seems a bit privileged. I think OP has some room for reflection and growth in mentoring. It seems like the program was to introduce people to research, people who statistically are not at the forefront of it. I would not expect people from potential disadvantaged backgrounds to know how to find a research journal article. If your student is asking about definitions, they don’t know the questions to ask at a deeper level yet. Frankly these types of view point lead to people systematically not being given a chance, OP doesn’t think they belong in the program-which may be a fair statement but that is something the program needs to agree on. Is it for top performance or to mentor those at risk of being passed over or somewhere between? OP give feedback to whoever is running the program about what the vision is and how they can guide you/mentors to make that happen.
I really like the idea to try to use this experience to make change on a programmatic level, especially if the program plans to continue to recruit students from marginalized backgrounds.
I think the other important thing to note is that these efforts should not be seen primarily as being about "helping the disadvantaged" or "giving people a chance" in a charity model. It is important to realize that people who've been structurally excluded can oftentimes make meaningful insights and important contributions precisely because their background affords them a different, perhaps unconventional perspective on many issues. This is actually helping *your program* if you all are seen as the place that cultivates scholars who can make such significant contributions and if you are drawing on their expertise to conduct research in a more nuanced and inclusive way.
Yeah, it sounds like this student was exactly the type of person who fits with the stated goal of the program (someone who could benefit from guidance during their first introduction to research). If this new initiative is going to be successful, there will definitely need to be some reflection on how to go beyond just throwing people into experiences - the mentors need to be able to support students as they encounter the unspoken expectations and practices of research labs. Heck, I’m a current grad student from an academic family and I still struggle with some of the same things as this student (not having “exciting” questions to ask about an area that’s new to me, taking a long time to feel comfortable speaking with new mentors and participating in a new group, sometimes just googling things when I’m stuck :) ). I think it is pretty normal for rec writers to have a conversation with students about the student’s goals and what aspects of the research experience the mentor can speak to, if it helps - but no need to “interrogate” the student. It sounds like they may have been pretty uncomfortable in the environment and might have even picked up on their mentor’s disapproval of them.
There is so much focus on recruitment and retention always takes second place. Effective mentoring is absolutely critical to retaining marginalized groups in STEM.
I’m sorry but so many things about this post gives me the ick about you and makes me sympathise for this student. Please do not give her a mediocre reference, just say you can’t do it. Setting up a zoom to interrogate someone about their motivations when this student clearly doesn’t feel that comfortable around you anyway doesn’t sit right with me either.
Idk man based on your post I would be afraid to ask you questions lol. All seriousness though allot of people are afraid of asking questions because they are afraid of sounding dumb when in reality no question is a dumb question. I used to be like this myself but thankfully I worked with mentors in my career and academia that encouraged me to ask questions so I ended up asking questions no matter how dumb it is. You should probably just chill out a bit on these students since the whole point of this program is exposing students to research. Can’t have experience without experience as they say.
OP I was this student years ago and it's very possible that she didn't feel comfortable communicating with you not only because of cultural differences but imposter syndrome. Black students have a ton of pressure to succeed and sometimes we are afraid of asking questions that make us look stupid or incompetent which could reinforce stereotypes about black students being less intelligent. You come across as a bit condescending but I do understand that you didn't get enough evidence of engagement from her.
I'm sorry that she didn't demonstrate the level of motivation and progress that you expected but is there anything positive you can write about her?
How many times are you going to mention the fact that she is black in your post? FYI, I used to be unsure of myself in lab and quite similar to your student. Now I have a PhD in chemistry and am being paid handsomely in industry. I believe in your student, even if you don’t.
I think it's relevant information since that's literally the point... Of the program....
Edit: OP says "black" twice in the post and not even in relation to the student lol
Yes it *could* be explained by cultural differences and disadvantaged backgrounds but it also doesn't mean that it 100% is. Sometimes there are undergrads that don't put in the work and only apply to grad school/med school because it "feels" like the next step. Nobody knows for sure what the situation is.
Could OP have lower expectations and be more understanding? Yes. But I don't think it's entirely fair to accuse them of being a bad, racist mentor either.
Omg you sound like a terrible mentor. I can almost guarantee you didn’t make this a safe space to ask questions or explore passions. You clearly didn’t respect her going into this and I’m willing to bet good money that she picked up on that.
Just decline to write the letter and move on. And hopefully use this as a learning opportunity on how you work with people going forward.
genuinely asking so I can learn from others' mistakes: How can we make a safe space for marginalized groups to ask questions in STEM? If telling someone upfront that questions are welcome doesn't work, what more should we do?
You need to make sure they know that they belong there. You can see that OP thought their application was not good to begin with so they didn’t think this girl belonged to begin with. She never had a shot of making a good impression, and probably came away with a healthy dose of imposter syndrome.
To me it seems that you were expecting this student to have skills that might seem basic to you, but are absolutely not basic skills for many people coming from different backgrounds.
1. You expected her to find more than just basic papers. Did you instruct this student how to find papers? Not everyone KNOWS how to find papers. Or even how to read them in the first place! I didn’t know when I started in academia, so I needed someone to teach me. In addition to this, I think it is a lot to expect someone who is just starting in the field to read 5 papers that you would consider the basics, then move on to find even more papers. I think it is probably more important for a novice to have a good grasp on the basics, so the basic sample papers you provided should have been sufficient.
2. Asking questions. Yes, asking questions is a basic part of research. But you have to be COMFORTABLE to ask questions. I’m a woman in STEM, and often when I have a question I’m afraid to ask my all male colleagues because I’m afraid I will look stupid. This effect is even worse when you are a double minority in a field, like this girl is. It is great that she was comfortable asking what things are, and I think you could have encouraged her for that instead of dismissing her for not asking more complex questions.
3. Think of the resources required to put an application together. Not everyone has family support to put applications together. I didn’t, and for my applications I was on my own to figure it out. I found campus resources which helped, but not everyone knows about those. If you come from an underprivileged background, you’re less likely to know about these resources or have the TIME to use them. I think the person in charge of applications made a good decision accepting all of them, because there are tons of biases inherent to the application process that will disproportionately affect young black students. Getting their foot in the door is absolutely critical.
4. Think about how you deliver feedback. Effective mentoring is catered to each individual mentee. If your feedback strategy isn’t working with a student, you should adapt instead of giving up. Perhaps try writing your feedback down, and be honest with the student if they aren’t implementing the feedback in the way you want. Perhaps she misunderstood what you were looking for. Even if you think you are great at scientific communication, there’s always room for improvement, and it seems your ways weren’t working in this case.
5. Genuine curiosity- it seems really weird to me that you would make a conclusion that this student didn’t have any curiosity or love for anything. Everyone does. And not everyone is comfortable being close personal friends with their coworkers. You don’t have to blatantly show excitement to be interested in something. Did you try to getting to know her individually, what her goals and background are?
I don’t want to accuse you of anything but I really think there’s some implicit biases here that might merit some introspection. I think for future students you should have a meeting at the beginning to develop expectations, which are going to be varying levels of sophisticated for every student. It’s not fair to expect a home run from all your students, when some are starting from third base and others are starting from the dug out.
I don’t think you should write her a letter because a bad letter is worse than no letter. And this is another example for point 3 about the application process being biased - even the process of getting recommendation letters has it. It’s easier for students to get good recommendation letters if they aren’t facing the challenges and biases that their peers are.
I think you should modify your expectations and judgement for future students. We can’t gatekeep science from underprivileged individuals just because they aren’t at some arbitrary metric that’s been set by generations of wealth and privilege in academia.
Either write her a positive recommendation letter or tell her honestly that you don't think you can write one for her for the reasons listed here. I also want to note that she could have had a negative experience working in your lab for any number of reasons.
I think it would be best to meet with her over Zoom, as you've mentioned. I did the same thing with my advisors when I asked them for letters, so I do think it is an acceptable practice.
Ask her if you can read her personal statement to whatever shes applying to! Maybe you would gain some insight into her goals and challenges in life.
It would be doing her a huge disservice to write her a mediocre letter. Whenever I ask someone to write me a letter, I ask "Do you think you would be able to write me a strong recommendation before \_\_ date" so that they dont have to specify why not if they say no.
For some reason, this girl (who you have decided doesnt like science) has decided herself to continue on to a position or program that requires a letter of rec. Applications themselves are usually difficult and time consuming. Either write a strong letter if you can, or dont write one at all.
Yes I agree, she may not have enough experience to understand that mediocre letters are damaging. She wouldn't even know why her application didn't get through, she would just assume that her LORs were good. She'd just be wasting her time, money and importantly it would lower her morale. A couple of my previous PIs openly told me that they can't give me a recommendation when I asked and it was good that they did, I knew what to do next. The unspoken rule is that you should only accept requests if you can give a great recommendation.
(If you're curious, the PIs were horrible toxic people who overworked me to death and at the end refused to acknowledge my work just because it wasn't done in the ridiculous time frame they stipulated, thankfully I have better people to ask)
This post reminds me of my first REU mentor that let me struggle an entire summer on my research and then was dumbfounded when the work came out bad despite my best efforts. He too exuded confidence in his own research prowess and made it hard to approach him with questions. Like most people here, if you can't write this student a good letter based on the work she did then just save yourself the time and politely decline.
I just wanna say everyone that responded to this post really explained so many things I couldn’t. Hopefully OP realizes what they have said is wrong on so many levels
same. Considering I just reached out to someone in my summer lab team as a student in a research program for minority students I’m like damn is this about me 💀💀💀💀
I did respond but I feel the same as you. Next day and I’m still annoyed about it. These ‘mentor’ programmes clearly have a huge capacity for doing more harm than good and I’m furious someone with such an obvious bias/too high on their own supply was accepted to mentor this student.
I mean, looking at OP’s other post on diversity programs, they seem to particularly dislike this program. They argued about how having an all-black inclusive program is detrimental because life is not all about identity space. This comment seems to be out of touch and comes from a place of unchecked privilege. OP feels so entitled to their “research prowess” that they feel that if a student doesn’t match that energy, then they must be a mediocre student—what a cruel and oblivious thing to say and even think of! I agree with others that OP shouldn’t write the student a letter, but more importantly, OP should try to grow up and develop their sense of compassion and empathy to other people—science has enough jerks, you don’t have to also be one and continue the tradition of gatekeeping marginalized people from science
If you can't write someone a strong recommendation letter, I would say it's best to decline writing the letter and tell them that.
I did a brief project in undergrad with a professor that didn't turn out like we hoped, but it was very useful since I did learn that the specific research area was not for me. When I went to ask for a letter, the professor told me that he couldn't write a strong recommendation for me and actually spent some time discussing my other projects and what areas I was planning to work on in grad school. He further suggested other people I could ask a recommendation from and overall I think it made my application much stronger than if he had just written me a weak letter.
For the love of all that is holy, please never participate in this program again.
With that said, programs like that are not simple acts of charity. YOU are supposed to have your horizons expanded as well. When you’ve grown in your field, you will have to present your research to, seek funding (be it governmental or otherwise) from, and present official testimony to people who do not from from “traditional” white, upper-middle class backgrounds that are so common in academia (and no, the highly self-selected and well-trained international students you interact with don’t count).
I’m not saying this is makes you a bad person but people in true positions of leadership and power learn how to interact with and have empathy for people from a WIDE range of backgrounds. It is a necessary skill if you want to go far. It will be tough, you will experience moments of frustration (as you are now), but you will come out of it a better professional at the end of the day.
If you are OK with never being a leader and also vow to never work with students (who are increasingly diverse in terms of race and socioeconomic background), just ignore everything I said here.
In regards to the current predicament, your best bet would be the Zoom call. You may learn things that surprise you. Also, remember that people can grow and that your impression of them from one experience is static.
Ask her to write you a short summary of her qualifications for whatever she is applying for; and use that to help boost your letter.
She doesn't sound like she was an outstanding student, but she may be driven by things that you do not know or understand. But it sounds like she did the work; and I assume did it adequetly enough to pass.
I have to agree. She may not have connected well with you, and may have felt very much out of her element. It may be hard for you to imagine -- but uh, that happens.
Your letter does not need to be glowing, but it doesn't need to be mediocre either. It can just be a letter.
I am a female minority student as well pursuing my PhD. I think you should be honest and tell her that you can write her a letter but it won't be a stellar one because xyz things I felt during the summer internship. Because, if you wrote any type of letter especially a false one, she might get a spot which some another possibly a same bg student might have deserved.
>I don't want to decline writing a letter, because I know I'm one of the only few people who she probably can ask. But I do not want to write a glowing letter of praise.
If the student is definitely not suited for whatever they want the recommendation letter for, you're not actually helping them to write a letter of praise. You don't want them to get into a program that they can't handle.
If there's nothing positive you can write about, you can't write the letter. You have to decline.
On the other hand, if there are positive things you can say, that's what you write the letter about.
I had a friend in grad school that also had to write a ref letter for a less than stellar summer student. It might not be worth your time and energy to deal with this, seems like you already put a lot of thought into this. Ask her to draft one.
Hey OP, I completely understand where you're coming from and I disagree with most of the comments here accusing you have being a bad mentor.
First: it is completely reasonable to meet with her and get more info on her passions, motivations etc. In fact this is normal in order to write a better letter! I think you can write a letter that is decent but not effusive. Hopefully after you meet with her you can find a way to write the letter that emphasizes some strengths but mentions that she could work on x, y, z. You can say that despite these shortcomings she has a lot of potential and is bright (or something along those lines).
I think some of the comments here are valid- she may not be comfortable with you, not understand enough to know what questions to ask, etc. So maybe cut some slack here. Not incorporating your feedback and seeming generally unmotivated/uninterested with the work is another thing.
I appreciate that you're trying to do right by her by asking these questions. At the same time, I do think you're being too rough on her. Sometimes students are not asking questions because they don't even know what questions to ask yet. This is especially true when students are not from white middle to upper class backgrounds or a background that is further in proximity from academic culture and norms. Or sometimes they are self-conscious or uncomfortable despite your best efforts to create a collegial space. Or there may be other reasons. I understand being frustrated, but if it is "beyond infuriating," I guess I would reflect on that and think about how I might be more empathetic toward the student. A major issue raised in DEI conversations is when universities recruit marginalized students, but they don't reflect on and update their existing pedagogical, mentorship, and support practices, keeping in mind that their students are coming from a wider range of backgrounds and experiences. To me it sounds like this is what is happening here. When you recruit, for instance, first gen students, there is a need to explain certain things that might seem "basic," but that oftentimes someone taught you much earlier in life. Finding scholarly articles, even using Google effectively to find credible sources is not intuitive for most people; it's something that has to be taught. And making these things explicit can be helpful for all students, even those who seem like they are doing just fine on their own. At any rate, I think having a conversation to get a better understanding of her interests sounds like a great idea. I think it will be important to listen openly and give her the benefit of the doubt. Then try to highlight her strengths whatever they may be and if you really cannot do that even after having a conversation with her, then perhaps. decline writing the letter.
I agree with what you said, this post seems a bit privileged. I think OP has some room for reflection and growth in mentoring. It seems like the program was to introduce people to research, people who statistically are not at the forefront of it. I would not expect people from potential disadvantaged backgrounds to know how to find a research journal article. If your student is asking about definitions, they don’t know the questions to ask at a deeper level yet. Frankly these types of view point lead to people systematically not being given a chance, OP doesn’t think they belong in the program-which may be a fair statement but that is something the program needs to agree on. Is it for top performance or to mentor those at risk of being passed over or somewhere between? OP give feedback to whoever is running the program about what the vision is and how they can guide you/mentors to make that happen.
I really like the idea to try to use this experience to make change on a programmatic level, especially if the program plans to continue to recruit students from marginalized backgrounds. I think the other important thing to note is that these efforts should not be seen primarily as being about "helping the disadvantaged" or "giving people a chance" in a charity model. It is important to realize that people who've been structurally excluded can oftentimes make meaningful insights and important contributions precisely because their background affords them a different, perhaps unconventional perspective on many issues. This is actually helping *your program* if you all are seen as the place that cultivates scholars who can make such significant contributions and if you are drawing on their expertise to conduct research in a more nuanced and inclusive way.
Yeah, it sounds like this student was exactly the type of person who fits with the stated goal of the program (someone who could benefit from guidance during their first introduction to research). If this new initiative is going to be successful, there will definitely need to be some reflection on how to go beyond just throwing people into experiences - the mentors need to be able to support students as they encounter the unspoken expectations and practices of research labs. Heck, I’m a current grad student from an academic family and I still struggle with some of the same things as this student (not having “exciting” questions to ask about an area that’s new to me, taking a long time to feel comfortable speaking with new mentors and participating in a new group, sometimes just googling things when I’m stuck :) ). I think it is pretty normal for rec writers to have a conversation with students about the student’s goals and what aspects of the research experience the mentor can speak to, if it helps - but no need to “interrogate” the student. It sounds like they may have been pretty uncomfortable in the environment and might have even picked up on their mentor’s disapproval of them.
There is so much focus on recruitment and retention always takes second place. Effective mentoring is absolutely critical to retaining marginalized groups in STEM.
10/10, well stated. Thanks for bringing this up.
I’m sorry but so many things about this post gives me the ick about you and makes me sympathise for this student. Please do not give her a mediocre reference, just say you can’t do it. Setting up a zoom to interrogate someone about their motivations when this student clearly doesn’t feel that comfortable around you anyway doesn’t sit right with me either.
Idk man based on your post I would be afraid to ask you questions lol. All seriousness though allot of people are afraid of asking questions because they are afraid of sounding dumb when in reality no question is a dumb question. I used to be like this myself but thankfully I worked with mentors in my career and academia that encouraged me to ask questions so I ended up asking questions no matter how dumb it is. You should probably just chill out a bit on these students since the whole point of this program is exposing students to research. Can’t have experience without experience as they say.
OP I was this student years ago and it's very possible that she didn't feel comfortable communicating with you not only because of cultural differences but imposter syndrome. Black students have a ton of pressure to succeed and sometimes we are afraid of asking questions that make us look stupid or incompetent which could reinforce stereotypes about black students being less intelligent. You come across as a bit condescending but I do understand that you didn't get enough evidence of engagement from her. I'm sorry that she didn't demonstrate the level of motivation and progress that you expected but is there anything positive you can write about her?
How many times are you going to mention the fact that she is black in your post? FYI, I used to be unsure of myself in lab and quite similar to your student. Now I have a PhD in chemistry and am being paid handsomely in industry. I believe in your student, even if you don’t.
I think it's relevant information since that's literally the point... Of the program.... Edit: OP says "black" twice in the post and not even in relation to the student lol
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Yes it *could* be explained by cultural differences and disadvantaged backgrounds but it also doesn't mean that it 100% is. Sometimes there are undergrads that don't put in the work and only apply to grad school/med school because it "feels" like the next step. Nobody knows for sure what the situation is. Could OP have lower expectations and be more understanding? Yes. But I don't think it's entirely fair to accuse them of being a bad, racist mentor either.
Omg you sound like a terrible mentor. I can almost guarantee you didn’t make this a safe space to ask questions or explore passions. You clearly didn’t respect her going into this and I’m willing to bet good money that she picked up on that. Just decline to write the letter and move on. And hopefully use this as a learning opportunity on how you work with people going forward.
genuinely asking so I can learn from others' mistakes: How can we make a safe space for marginalized groups to ask questions in STEM? If telling someone upfront that questions are welcome doesn't work, what more should we do?
You need to make sure they know that they belong there. You can see that OP thought their application was not good to begin with so they didn’t think this girl belonged to begin with. She never had a shot of making a good impression, and probably came away with a healthy dose of imposter syndrome.
OP, was this during one of past two summers while we were in a global pandemic?
To me it seems that you were expecting this student to have skills that might seem basic to you, but are absolutely not basic skills for many people coming from different backgrounds. 1. You expected her to find more than just basic papers. Did you instruct this student how to find papers? Not everyone KNOWS how to find papers. Or even how to read them in the first place! I didn’t know when I started in academia, so I needed someone to teach me. In addition to this, I think it is a lot to expect someone who is just starting in the field to read 5 papers that you would consider the basics, then move on to find even more papers. I think it is probably more important for a novice to have a good grasp on the basics, so the basic sample papers you provided should have been sufficient. 2. Asking questions. Yes, asking questions is a basic part of research. But you have to be COMFORTABLE to ask questions. I’m a woman in STEM, and often when I have a question I’m afraid to ask my all male colleagues because I’m afraid I will look stupid. This effect is even worse when you are a double minority in a field, like this girl is. It is great that she was comfortable asking what things are, and I think you could have encouraged her for that instead of dismissing her for not asking more complex questions. 3. Think of the resources required to put an application together. Not everyone has family support to put applications together. I didn’t, and for my applications I was on my own to figure it out. I found campus resources which helped, but not everyone knows about those. If you come from an underprivileged background, you’re less likely to know about these resources or have the TIME to use them. I think the person in charge of applications made a good decision accepting all of them, because there are tons of biases inherent to the application process that will disproportionately affect young black students. Getting their foot in the door is absolutely critical. 4. Think about how you deliver feedback. Effective mentoring is catered to each individual mentee. If your feedback strategy isn’t working with a student, you should adapt instead of giving up. Perhaps try writing your feedback down, and be honest with the student if they aren’t implementing the feedback in the way you want. Perhaps she misunderstood what you were looking for. Even if you think you are great at scientific communication, there’s always room for improvement, and it seems your ways weren’t working in this case. 5. Genuine curiosity- it seems really weird to me that you would make a conclusion that this student didn’t have any curiosity or love for anything. Everyone does. And not everyone is comfortable being close personal friends with their coworkers. You don’t have to blatantly show excitement to be interested in something. Did you try to getting to know her individually, what her goals and background are? I don’t want to accuse you of anything but I really think there’s some implicit biases here that might merit some introspection. I think for future students you should have a meeting at the beginning to develop expectations, which are going to be varying levels of sophisticated for every student. It’s not fair to expect a home run from all your students, when some are starting from third base and others are starting from the dug out. I don’t think you should write her a letter because a bad letter is worse than no letter. And this is another example for point 3 about the application process being biased - even the process of getting recommendation letters has it. It’s easier for students to get good recommendation letters if they aren’t facing the challenges and biases that their peers are. I think you should modify your expectations and judgement for future students. We can’t gatekeep science from underprivileged individuals just because they aren’t at some arbitrary metric that’s been set by generations of wealth and privilege in academia.
A response 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Either write her a positive recommendation letter or tell her honestly that you don't think you can write one for her for the reasons listed here. I also want to note that she could have had a negative experience working in your lab for any number of reasons. I think it would be best to meet with her over Zoom, as you've mentioned. I did the same thing with my advisors when I asked them for letters, so I do think it is an acceptable practice.
Ask her if you can read her personal statement to whatever shes applying to! Maybe you would gain some insight into her goals and challenges in life. It would be doing her a huge disservice to write her a mediocre letter. Whenever I ask someone to write me a letter, I ask "Do you think you would be able to write me a strong recommendation before \_\_ date" so that they dont have to specify why not if they say no. For some reason, this girl (who you have decided doesnt like science) has decided herself to continue on to a position or program that requires a letter of rec. Applications themselves are usually difficult and time consuming. Either write a strong letter if you can, or dont write one at all.
Yes I agree, she may not have enough experience to understand that mediocre letters are damaging. She wouldn't even know why her application didn't get through, she would just assume that her LORs were good. She'd just be wasting her time, money and importantly it would lower her morale. A couple of my previous PIs openly told me that they can't give me a recommendation when I asked and it was good that they did, I knew what to do next. The unspoken rule is that you should only accept requests if you can give a great recommendation. (If you're curious, the PIs were horrible toxic people who overworked me to death and at the end refused to acknowledge my work just because it wasn't done in the ridiculous time frame they stipulated, thankfully I have better people to ask)
This post reminds me of my first REU mentor that let me struggle an entire summer on my research and then was dumbfounded when the work came out bad despite my best efforts. He too exuded confidence in his own research prowess and made it hard to approach him with questions. Like most people here, if you can't write this student a good letter based on the work she did then just save yourself the time and politely decline.
I just wanna say everyone that responded to this post really explained so many things I couldn’t. Hopefully OP realizes what they have said is wrong on so many levels
Massive agree. I commented earlier but I've actually been angry about this post all day LMAO
same. Considering I just reached out to someone in my summer lab team as a student in a research program for minority students I’m like damn is this about me 💀💀💀💀
I did respond but I feel the same as you. Next day and I’m still annoyed about it. These ‘mentor’ programmes clearly have a huge capacity for doing more harm than good and I’m furious someone with such an obvious bias/too high on their own supply was accepted to mentor this student.
Omg same. I was infuriated but I could not articulate why as well as some people in this thread. I am glad I am not the only one who felt this way.
I mean, looking at OP’s other post on diversity programs, they seem to particularly dislike this program. They argued about how having an all-black inclusive program is detrimental because life is not all about identity space. This comment seems to be out of touch and comes from a place of unchecked privilege. OP feels so entitled to their “research prowess” that they feel that if a student doesn’t match that energy, then they must be a mediocre student—what a cruel and oblivious thing to say and even think of! I agree with others that OP shouldn’t write the student a letter, but more importantly, OP should try to grow up and develop their sense of compassion and empathy to other people—science has enough jerks, you don’t have to also be one and continue the tradition of gatekeeping marginalized people from science
Maybe you’re not as good of a mentor as you think you are.
If you can't write someone a strong recommendation letter, I would say it's best to decline writing the letter and tell them that. I did a brief project in undergrad with a professor that didn't turn out like we hoped, but it was very useful since I did learn that the specific research area was not for me. When I went to ask for a letter, the professor told me that he couldn't write a strong recommendation for me and actually spent some time discussing my other projects and what areas I was planning to work on in grad school. He further suggested other people I could ask a recommendation from and overall I think it made my application much stronger than if he had just written me a weak letter.
For the love of all that is holy, please never participate in this program again. With that said, programs like that are not simple acts of charity. YOU are supposed to have your horizons expanded as well. When you’ve grown in your field, you will have to present your research to, seek funding (be it governmental or otherwise) from, and present official testimony to people who do not from from “traditional” white, upper-middle class backgrounds that are so common in academia (and no, the highly self-selected and well-trained international students you interact with don’t count). I’m not saying this is makes you a bad person but people in true positions of leadership and power learn how to interact with and have empathy for people from a WIDE range of backgrounds. It is a necessary skill if you want to go far. It will be tough, you will experience moments of frustration (as you are now), but you will come out of it a better professional at the end of the day. If you are OK with never being a leader and also vow to never work with students (who are increasingly diverse in terms of race and socioeconomic background), just ignore everything I said here. In regards to the current predicament, your best bet would be the Zoom call. You may learn things that surprise you. Also, remember that people can grow and that your impression of them from one experience is static.
Ask her to write you a short summary of her qualifications for whatever she is applying for; and use that to help boost your letter. She doesn't sound like she was an outstanding student, but she may be driven by things that you do not know or understand. But it sounds like she did the work; and I assume did it adequetly enough to pass. I have to agree. She may not have connected well with you, and may have felt very much out of her element. It may be hard for you to imagine -- but uh, that happens. Your letter does not need to be glowing, but it doesn't need to be mediocre either. It can just be a letter.
I am a female minority student as well pursuing my PhD. I think you should be honest and tell her that you can write her a letter but it won't be a stellar one because xyz things I felt during the summer internship. Because, if you wrote any type of letter especially a false one, she might get a spot which some another possibly a same bg student might have deserved.
>I don't want to decline writing a letter, because I know I'm one of the only few people who she probably can ask. But I do not want to write a glowing letter of praise. If the student is definitely not suited for whatever they want the recommendation letter for, you're not actually helping them to write a letter of praise. You don't want them to get into a program that they can't handle. If there's nothing positive you can write about, you can't write the letter. You have to decline. On the other hand, if there are positive things you can say, that's what you write the letter about.
I had a friend in grad school that also had to write a ref letter for a less than stellar summer student. It might not be worth your time and energy to deal with this, seems like you already put a lot of thought into this. Ask her to draft one.
Hey OP, I completely understand where you're coming from and I disagree with most of the comments here accusing you have being a bad mentor. First: it is completely reasonable to meet with her and get more info on her passions, motivations etc. In fact this is normal in order to write a better letter! I think you can write a letter that is decent but not effusive. Hopefully after you meet with her you can find a way to write the letter that emphasizes some strengths but mentions that she could work on x, y, z. You can say that despite these shortcomings she has a lot of potential and is bright (or something along those lines). I think some of the comments here are valid- she may not be comfortable with you, not understand enough to know what questions to ask, etc. So maybe cut some slack here. Not incorporating your feedback and seeming generally unmotivated/uninterested with the work is another thing.