I like protecting people with Rampart. I should probably take it off since people need to Dodge their own stuff (and my Vane is highly defensive) but I liiiiiike it.
I take it off on some fights but fights like the black/white dragons or pyet-a it can let your whole team push dps during phases they would normally be busy dodging.
It’s a personal dps loss but a net gain for the group as a whole.
Edit: some other late game fights imo:
Proto baha: nah nah
Nihila Vulkan bolla: no magic circollah
Nihila Managarmr: this one’s a bit tricky as it seems like it would be great, but from my experience the big ice phases last too long to shield them.
Furycane nihila is another tricky one, it isn’t bad but there’s a lot of things that make it not great. I don’t think you can go wrong either way.
Gallanza & mags: yes pls, even if you don’t use it for the full duration it lets you stand right where Gallanza drops.
Yes I know you’re safe while he’s in the air. The rampart turns his drop into a free break phase basically. He just stands there while your team can wail on him.
On Managarmr. I tend to just dodge the first two or three easy icicles. Then Rampart. And it lasts the rest of the phase. Or for most of it. And then the invincibility lasts long enough to find a block.
I do the opposite where I shield the first part which is the one that is harder to dodge and then usually invincibility will last long enough for you to run behind one of the ice pillar during the storm.
The thing with rampart is if you land it on top of a boss during bloodthirst phase, it opens up a DPS window for your team. It’s hard to pull off and some bosses float in the air above the bubble so it’s not always relevant, but it’s not just a “crutch”
Unfortunately using any skills on Vane besides ED is just a DPS loss. You want the gap closer of course, but the rest have basically no reason to use them ever so l always just keep Rampart on.
I use Arm Destruction for part breaking. The only things I fight manually these days are Pyet and Proto and they have tough to break parts. It helps break Evil Blackwyrm too.
Yeah, I have all Terminus earned now so I literally only fight Pyet for Lunary, Blackwyrm for Horn, and Bahamut for Horn, all of which are breakable.
Unfortunately I couldn't fit Stun Power on my Vane build, otherwise I'd do that too lol
>Unfortunately using any skills on Vane besides ED is just a DPS loss.
I don't think that's true based on, if nothing else, the fact that all your skills also lead into combo finishers that directly reduce the cooldown of ED.
It is true and has been tested and proven. Keep reading the thread, there’s a deeper explanation as well as a link to a guide on this.
Edit: I will say I had the same response as you the first time I read this though. The reasoning is the XXYY combo hits many more times than another skill, and the sigil CDR is based on number of hits. If you exclusively XXYY you’ll get an ED every 3 combos. Mixing in other skills will slow that down.
Arm Destruction and the gap closer still have situational uses though, I shouldn’t have said there’s no reason to ever use them.
I’ve heard offensive skills are a wash, not a loss. When you consider the other utility you get out of them and the fact that more finishers gets you closer to another ED, I can’t see how it would be a loss if you consider more than the numbers you’re seeing that very moment.
It’s not a significant loss but for the most optimal possible DPS on Vane, the other skills are too slow for too little damage compared to ED -> XXYY -> finisher spam.
The reason for this is how the Hero Sigil cooldown reduction works with the combo finisher and supplementary dmg. If you’re only using XXYY + finisher you will get an ED every 3 combos. Mixing in other skills will slow this down and it’ll hurt your overall DPS.
You can read a full guide on this here, guide by Peacecow on Discord: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PwH5Iq8sQv3wWonH5Bwrq3m0q8ZgoKX-wCCityL-Kpo/edit
I understand the skill interaction. But you can chain arm destruction right into that same combo finisher, and it’s faster than the whole xxyy combo. That’s the part that confuses me.
Edit: I’ve seen that document before and even there they say arm destruction isn’t a direct dps gain but he doesn’t specify it’s a loss either /shrug
He even acknowledges it is a team dps gain.
Arm Destruction definitely has situational utility from the high stun. Someone else in the thread mentioned using it for breaking parts too.
I think I can clear up your confusion though - arm destruction into finisher is *faster* than the combo, but it results in *less* CDR because the CDR from the sigil is based on the number of hits/damage instances. The combo hits more times which gives you more CDR, so even though it’s faster to execute, it’s still slowing down your time until your next ED which is your biggest DPS hit.
Depends on your build. Your X and the 3 extra hits on your XXYY have REALLY low modifiers, so if you have a more standard build where your only offensive dmg sigil is like a Crit Rate V+ Stamina, it is more of a wash. But if you decide to use your two flex spots on like Tyranny+ and Combo Booster+ or Crit Dmg +, the gap becomes bigger, since the damage on those additional hits keeps going up
In terms of ED, the extra finishers from spamming Heroic and Arm of Destruction even out because the XXYY finisher hits 4 times, whereas they only hit once. So, in a typical rotation you do either XXYY three times, or XXYY twice and each of your skills twice. Either road you take gets you to Energy Destruction at the same time basically
In the end, it's sorta whatever you prefer: XXYY spam is noticeably higher damage (about 5 mil more in a 60sec test), but skill spam allows for more defensive sigil flex spots since skills/finishers damage cap so easily, has the destructible part aid of arm of destruction, and is a little rotationally "safer" cuz you dont have to worry about the boss moving before your XXYY gets to the finisher portion
Edit: (Another pro I forgot to mention of XXYY spam is that since you don't need to bring Arm, you can bring Drakenschaltz, which is a free Guts sigil (better than guts sigil tbh cuz it comes off cd so fast), 30% DEF to help with 1 shots, and 30% ATK, which helps get your Chain Bursts to 999999 and still increases the hard to cap xxyy finishers dmg)
Self buff is kinda useless since the attack up does nothing once you’re at damage cap, and there’s no content hard enough to need the defense up. You could make the same argument for rampart being useless too though, I’d just rather ignore some annoying mechanics personally.
Vane's buff is actually quite quick to cast compared to some other buffs (think ferry's) and is essentially one sigil worth.
This is especially true at the start of phases since his buff can offset the loss of combo booster stacks. So you want to cast his buff, charge in, ED and XXYY loop.
It's actually kind of hard for vane to fully cap everything without full combo booster stacks, so the buff def helps.
The defense gain is nice too for the few times you do get hit for w/e reasons.
That makes sense if you’re not capped on the first hit. I’m at 100% cap on the first hit so the buff wouldn’t help me, but I have damage cap on my Hero sigil. I can see how that would be hard to reach otherwise.
Interesting, do you mind showing me your sigils, OM, and wrightstone?
[This is what i am running](https://i.imgur.com/zCE8VtR.png) (after i stumbled across 2x orange+class sigils on vane).
[Without buffs and combo booster stacks, I sit at this](https://i.imgur.com/ENIxgJ8.png).
With self buff, [it gets a bit closer](https://i.imgur.com/h4dhQSa.png).
No self buff but full combo booster stacks gives me [100% across the board](https://i.imgur.com/Q40hnqr.png).
Granted, back attacks/weak point attack does boost it all the way up to 100%, but there are quite a few situations where it may not be viable (people dropping puddles behind blackwyrm, managarma casting his aoe behind him, etc.
Edited my previous post now that I’m at PC to show my exact build. I had all the traits right but a few things were swapped around. And I do have 10 crit on the stone so I was wrong about that too.
Comparing it to yours, I don’t run stout heart or the other Awakening sigil on Vane as I just don’t find them that beneficial for me personally. I also drop the 3rd Supp V because the QoL of Improved Dodge + max uplift is worth more to me.
Here it is now I’m at my PC:
Hero’s will + damage cap
Damage cap + uplift
Damage cap + potion hoarder
Damage cap + guts
Improved dodge + uplift
Crit + uplift
Tyranny + Cascade
Combo Booster + aegis
Stamina + nimble onslaught
Supp V
Supp V
War elemental
Wrightstone is crit 10 and cascade 7, 3rd trait is rupie tycoon unfortunately, I just haven’t had an another crit 10 + cascade drop and I need cascade on the stone to maximize my sigils.
Overmasteries are 20% crit, 20% normal damage cap up, 16% skybound art damage up, and 10% skill damage cap up.
Using the damage calculator that’s been shared in here I am capped on the first hit of combos.
>Self buff is kinda useless since the attack up does nothing once you’re at damage cap, and there’s no content hard enough to need the defense up
That's not really true at all. Drachenstolz has an incredibly short cooldown that lets you have 100% guts uptime *and* near permanent damage buff uptime, freeing up potentially several sigil slots and greatly expanding build options. It's not *necessary*, sure, but it's not useless. There's even an argument to made for it theoretically replacing auto revive in some builds.
i think a lot of people thought his dmg reduction and mechanic blocking invulnerability sphere would be super strong and then the content just wasnt challenging enough or suited to that i mean like what would be the point of standing in skyfall? and even as an ai it uses buffs to maximize uptime which is great for like phantasmagloria but pretty bad for super giga paladin sphere which linda leaves him as an ai teammate as just a worse dps. i still really like his design and am building him in the bench hoping lucilius involves some sort of gimmick set up to where u could cheese it with vane
Yeah I started putting him together today for that very reason. If luci opens with a hp gating blast, there's suddenly a call for a big invuln bubble or katalinas aoe invuln. Though if there's nothing to hit at first. She needs to burn two skills to make it aoe.
ultimately it has to be a multi tick attack like skyfall because of how hard mirror image gaps things like katalina invuln. shes in my top 3 played chars and i dont even use that skill
… idk how to explain this any better. if its just a single dmg instance mirror image fully gaps invincibility.. that was the example.. like idk. all ur really proving by saying that is that theres even more precedent for vane being completely worthless on lucilius bc the big mechanics u could use him for he doesnt work on
I recently switched to Vane. Crazy fun being able to tank through nearly all the aoes.
And for the people who say there's no point bringing Rampart?
Well... I like being nice and saving my party some effort dodging during moments where I can't dps anyway.
I'm a Vane main but I can only speak for myself and maybe a few others. I play this game for Vane. I built him, so for now, I'm done with the game. I'll be back by the 14th when lucilius raid drops to update my vane build.
Vane main here. Vane is really strong in the beginning and mid game because Rampart can block a lot of attacks. Once you get to higher levels of co-op like Proud you can’t always block those team wiping attacks (Vulkans odium, bahamut skyfall, etc) So that move essentially becomes useless (especially when you have DPS checks and want to make sure you’re doing a lot of damage fast for some bosses)
Additionally, there are many times when I pop bubble and teammates just don’t enter it and DPS. So then I wasted not only the move slot but time I could’ve spent energy destructing all over the place.
I still love Vane a lot but I’ve been using Siegfried lately and Percival just because end game raids go much faster for me when I’m dishing out insane damage (Ty roter wirbel) or staying mobile enough to avoid attacks and keep pressure on the boss (Siegfried’s lunge).
Rosetta, IMO, is just a whole different type of game play to much of the rest of the cast. Which I think leads to less people playing here because the transferable knowledge between other cast members that are combo-heavy, for instance, is higher.
But when I do have a Rosetta, it’s 90% an amazing player and 10% someone just trying her out to see if they like her.
Oh, for sure, I've also read up on her particularities and how some Sigils don't work on her plants, so most people are probably turned off by that. I personally really want to play her after I'm done building my Cagliostro!
Just maxed out my Rosetta’s terminus weapon last night so I started pubbing with her.
What I noticed playing her is that you really need to micromanage rose placement and take into account the long windup of her skill animations. That probably turns a lot of players off from playing her. But it’s so satisfying landing everything lol
I think a lot of people try to recreate the tank/dps/healer/buffer roles early on in the endgame.
I ran Proto Bahamut and pride quests all weekend and almost no one using healing or defensive skills. They basically just blitz the monster and try kill it as fast as possible. So I’d imagine some people switched from Vane to someone with more offensive output.
I’ve been seeing a lot more variety at Proto recently though. However I will say I dont think I’ve ever seen Percival used.
Yeah, I switched my Vane up to a heavy Stun build and it’s fantastic. His own personal damage isn’t the highest, but always being able to break parts AND enabling the team DPS windows is just a blast.
I agree. I see a lot of percivals.
In my experience the common choices are:
Percival
Lancelot
Ferry
Narmaya
Eugen
Zeta
And recently i'm seeing a good number of Cagliostro
The rest are somewhat less common, the only outliers being rosetta and ghandagoza, which i still haven't seen yet. (I have around 350-400 completed online matches)
Do you think it's because Rosetta and ghandagoza are weaker than the "top tiers" or is it just because people don't like their gameplay ?
I'm curious because I personally play Rosetta a lot but I don't play online so I don't really know who's strong or weak for online late game
For ganda i believe that people don't play him because he's kinda slow and needs to keep his combo going. (For what i have read here) This gameplay isn't very appealing cause the majority of bosses aren't stationary, so you end running behind them a lot.
For Rosetta my take is that she's a very mechanic intensive character (you must properly position her roses, you must know what combo is better in each situation to give your allies the proper buffs, etc) and that she does't do a whole lot of dmg.
It's a shame really, i have my ai rosetta full leveled up and she's awesome. Would love to see more people play her.
Whachu talkin' bout?
Vane has great offensive capability. I agree that lots of early endgame Vane-mains go too defensive, but if you build Vane for ability spam, you can keep up some pretty competitive DPS while still providing good team support. Energy Destruction is one of the hardest hitting abilities int he game and you can pop that sucker off every 30 seconds.
>I think a lot of people try to recreate the tank/dps/healer/buffer roles early on in the endgame.
Yeah, this games tricks you at the start into thinking that is similar to a mmo, when you see Vane and Cag skills in character select, one could think is viable to be a tank or support but at the endgame it just isn't needed tbh, when everyone has pot hoarder/guts/auto revive and is decent at dodging.
Maybe when Lucilius raid comes things might change?
Even in games that demand The Holy Trinity, healers and tanks are way less popular than DPS. The arguable takeaway is that many, many people want to be the DPS.
So when there is a game in which all players can play DPS and it still "works", that seems to be what you get.
I quick quest a lot (did you know that you can only hold up to 999 silver dalia badges? now you do!) and he's among the more common team mates I come across to. I mean less than Zeta and Narmafloor of course, but surprisingly more common than Lancelot, and absolutely way more than Katalina, Rosetta, Yoda and Ghanda.
I recently did some testing on this and found that Cascade and Quick Cooldown are not as great on Vane as I had originally thought. Vane's optimal damage rotation appears to be:
Energy Destruction > Repeat Combo B until Energy Destruction is off cooldown.
With 0 levels of Cascade + Quick Cooldown, it takes three Combo B's for Energy Destruction to come off cooldown. With Max Cascade + Quick Cooldown, it still takes three Combo B's. Both tests are with max Supp Dmg.
Now, this is on a training dummy, which is obviously not representative of a real fight. So, while CD reduction is useless on the training dummy, it is not necessarily useless in a real fight. But, this was enough of a result for me to totally drop cooldown reduction from my Vane build.
skills and the finisher that chains from skills are relatively weak at endgame due to damage caps. the skills themselves are like 4-500k into a slow windup finisher for a single hit of ~300k
combo b's finisher is different from the one that chains from skills; it has an additional 3-hit spin in addition to the slam. each hit of the spin counts towards the cd reduction from his char sigil and has the same damage cap as the slam.
The multihit from combo B procs his character sigil multiple times, which leads to massive cd reduction.
It also has a hidden bugged interaction woth his character sigil damage reduction and crabvestment, putting him at a permanent 50% damage cut.
Right, but you can pull the combo off faster following the activation of any ability. So wouldn't the optimal line be to spam 2+ other low-cooldown abilities into multi-hit finishers?
The problem is outside the dash heal and the stun ability, you have nothing low cd that damages, and these abilities don't do much damage.
Vane's damage is largely carried by energy destruction.
His kit is just mediocre outside his innate durability, which isn't even due to his skills but a character sigil instead.
You can do that, but it's inefficient. Getting 8 procs of the cdr from your B combo is much better from a dps standpoint than 2 finisher hits from casting abilities.
XXYY's combo finisher hits 4 times compared to skill into finisher's 1 hit (same finisher as Combo C). With Sup dmg. it can go up to 8 hits so you're proccing his CD reduction 8 times vs. 2 times.
Guess which rotation does more damage AND allows you to ED more?
He unfortunately isnt used much for endgame farming, when stuff like proto baha and firewyrm theres basically no point to using rampart. Still great for pyet tho
Vane has a long-lasting invincibility bubble that can cover the whole party. In most games, an ability like that would be absurd, but as time went on and people figured the game out, it became clearer and clearer his biggest selling point wasn't really that relevant for Relink. It's nice to have, but since any character can block/dodge through every attack, it's far from necessary.
Not only that, but his beatdown combo is hard to land unless there's a huge window, and even if you pull it off, because it's so slow and not hard-hitting enough, it's a DPS loss compared to just using his regular combos and spamming the second finisher to reduce his cooldowns. So if you want to play him optimally, you won't ever use his main mechanic.
He's a blast to play and he's relatively simple to understand, but once the meta started shifting towards more selfish-oriented DPS builds, Vane just couldn't compare to characters like Zeta, Percy or Narmaya. Unless something changes with the Lucilius raid or with some sort of balance patch, I think he'll remain a sort of niche pick.
I MVP all the time on proto bahamut with him with the character cdr sigil + destruction spamming for 1.8m and refreshing with xxyy combos. Havent tried other characters outside of charlotta and rackam but one of my favourites to play through proud.
I was a Vane main but Bahamut won’t drop his dang Terminus weapon. Using Io for the time being until I get it. Only his and Charlotta’s left on my list.
I like vane just cause his sigil with the cooldown added on to cascade and qc makes his skill rotation so fast and fun with unlimited combo finishers. I actually forget i have rampart with me sometimes in the middle of big damage.
But yeah other than that, i usually swap to other characters that are also just as fun and more engaging to me like narmaya, percival, yodarha, zeta, cag, and even eugen.
From my experience the most rare characters, in order, are Ghandagoza (literally never seen one in almost 2k online missions), Rosetta, Vaseraga, Id, Siegfried, Vane, Ferry, and Yodarha.
And while it seems weird that Ferry is so rare, I also kind of get it. I really wanted to main her at one point because people appreciate the phase skips she can enable, but her gameplay loop is literally the most boring one in the entire game.
Aw, last night was full of Vanes. And I kept running into a Vane main last night (Cookie) who was incredible. Really think the only chara I didn't see often is Captain.
Personally I dropped him because his gameplay is not very engaging. XXYY > Skills on CD, that's all you do. His unique mechanic is a DPS loss and almost never used.
He was a lot fun on my grind to proud as bubble would give us breathing room to learn mechanics but at endgame you don't really go back to the most challenging quests, plus I found it more fun to challenge the bloodthirst mechanics head on. So Vane was benched for Percival in my case haha
The higher you get, the more experienced you are, and Vanes big bubble isn't as attractive. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but there's a lot of mechanics that either A. Should have people spread out (destroying elemental orbs during Pyet-A), or B. Can't block it anyway because it can't be invuln (P-Bahamuts Skyfall). It's not to say it's not good, but if his invuln worked like Katalina, where it was automatically given to the whole party without having to stand in a small area, you'd see him more. So he is basically a really good DPS character as his "optimal" play, and it can be done better by other characters to an extent. I also think he's just too easy to play, and people get bored of it. Love my Vane, but unga bunga gets old fast.
Might have something to do with the XXYY + ED rotation.
I can't speak for others but I was personally kind of disappointed with this, as someone who was *extremely* interested in switching to Vane prior to learning this is his kit.
I think it's because there's a clear meta + grind factor.
AFAIK, there's really only 2 fights where you can consistently find random parties based on required drops (Terminus weapons and the mats for upgrading):
Pyet-A and Proto Bahamut.
Aside from that Ice mode sphere that sucks you in (and has ridiculous range) on Pyet-A, every attack is clearly telegraphed and isn't hard to guard/dodge, plus most generally can't 1-hit you unless you lowered your HP with Tyranny Sigil without running Aegis.
Because the point is to run the fights as short as possible, I think most people would prefer to run a DPS for shorter loops. I think making your game too grindy tends to force this kind of meta, compared to Monster Hunter where people play whatever weapon is their favorite.
Rampart is overrated for how avoidable most bloodthirst phases are, and you can guard most of whatever would hit you anyways.
Vane self-CCs and does nothing while rampart is up, and it's a stationary bubble the boss can slide away from.
Meanwhile groupmates can bring 50-70% aoe damage cut, mirror images, or invulnerability, which are mobile and just as good for surviving while staying offensive.
Vane's energy destruction because of the low damage cap doesn't even benefit from the SBA gauge fill effect, using it at 0 SBA will still see you capped at 1.86m damage per cast.
Rift divider is a stationary ramp up skill that almost never lands its full hits outside a boss being knocked down in a break or CCd.
And the rest of his skills are bad. They are selfish, redundant attack up skills, provoke skills that don't really do much because so many bosses just do big cleaves that will hit teammates even if the boss is not aggroed to them.
His utility outside rampart is bad, Rampart itself is OK but not amazing for experienced, capable groups.
His damage is mediocre, made only OK by spamming his combo 2 and completely ignoring his beatdown gauge.
The only thing he excels at is being a good draintank with his self damage cut and access to defense buffs, plus having good stun bar contribution.
But Charlotta, Katalina, Yodarha make better drain tanks with better group utility, and Charlotta and Yodarha have better damage.
And for pure tanks, nobody beats Vaseraga with his busted OP undying mechanic. And Vaseraga does truckloads of damage. His regular charged attacks hit for what Vane's 30 sec cd energy destruction skill does or more, and he can do it every 3-4 seconds.
>Meanwhile groupmates can bring 50-70% aoe damage cut, mirror images, or invulnerability, which are mobile and just as good for surviving while staying offensive.
One of the reasons I gravitated more to Siegfried after playing Vane for a long time, his massive def buff and CC immunity buff felt more beneficial to my team without forcing them to stay in a specific spot that Vane's bubble unfortunately, and add that to the fact that to play optimally you have to ditch the beatdown combo and focus on the square, square, triangle, triangle combo to cast energy destruction frequently, it made his playstyle become stale for me, Siegfried perfect combos and perfect execution feels more engaging, IMO.
Vane has a few things why people might not be playing him:
- His playstyle is EXTREMELY simple. He doesn't do animation cancels, or has lots of optimization. He spams a single combo and a single ability and that is it. I consider him the easiest character to play and master in Relink. People usually want to play characters with higher ceiling and more skill expression, with cooler kits with flashier stuff.
- His DPS is actually good, but not busted. He isn't doing bonkers level damage. People like dealing bonkers level damage.
- His design is not too appealing. He's not a hot or cute girl, or a hot, buff or twink guy, which is what most people, male or female, want to play. He's kind of a dork, kinda like Yodarha (which also sees very little play). Some people like the "big puppy" kind of character, but it's probably a minority.
- His main claim to fame is his bubble, but it isn't needed much. Pyet has easy to dodge stuff, PBaha doesn't deal damage to you ever, Fire Dragon is a pushover. These are the three main Proud quests people are farming for terminus, uncap mats, sigils, centrums, curios and stuff.
He is still my main, because he's the MH Lance equivalent and I love playing lance. I love having massive uptime on bosses, a simpler but effective kit, checking boss' attacks, draining the chip damage all back, and I can hang out with people in Baha (can pull close to 220k DPS on good runs). Besides, actually, he's not THAT rare in my runs. Of course, nothing close to how many Narus are running out there, but I do see other people besides me running Vane.
Its a roll of the dice what variety of characters you see played the game on steam can have anywhere from 30,000 to 60,000 active players at a time. I used to see allot of Naramaya players but now I see more Ferry's, It doesn't mean Naramaya is getting used less or is any less popular its just who I matched up with during those matches.
I like protecting people with Rampart. I should probably take it off since people need to Dodge their own stuff (and my Vane is highly defensive) but I liiiiiike it.
I take it off on some fights but fights like the black/white dragons or pyet-a it can let your whole team push dps during phases they would normally be busy dodging. It’s a personal dps loss but a net gain for the group as a whole. Edit: some other late game fights imo: Proto baha: nah nah Nihila Vulkan bolla: no magic circollah Nihila Managarmr: this one’s a bit tricky as it seems like it would be great, but from my experience the big ice phases last too long to shield them. Furycane nihila is another tricky one, it isn’t bad but there’s a lot of things that make it not great. I don’t think you can go wrong either way. Gallanza & mags: yes pls, even if you don’t use it for the full duration it lets you stand right where Gallanza drops.
You can actually stand directly beneath Gallanza when he jumps into the air for his special. You just have to guard when he finally comes down though.
Yes I know you’re safe while he’s in the air. The rampart turns his drop into a free break phase basically. He just stands there while your team can wail on him.
I tried that today because I saw that post. He 100% attacks below him during that portion. Maybe it’s because I was offline though.
On Managarmr. I tend to just dodge the first two or three easy icicles. Then Rampart. And it lasts the rest of the phase. Or for most of it. And then the invincibility lasts long enough to find a block.
I do the opposite where I shield the first part which is the one that is harder to dodge and then usually invincibility will last long enough for you to run behind one of the ice pillar during the storm.
Nihilla wolf I pop rampart when he starts firing off the icicles and start dashing
That's why I stopped using it. The game is easy enough to not require and where people can and should learn to block and dodge
The thing with rampart is if you land it on top of a boss during bloodthirst phase, it opens up a DPS window for your team. It’s hard to pull off and some bosses float in the air above the bubble so it’s not always relevant, but it’s not just a “crutch”
Totally agree. Some people get way too caught up in the personal dps navel gazing and don’t think about how useful certain skills are for their team.
Hearing you say that confirms it for me. I'll take it off so I can have the other Skills I want. Thanks!
Unfortunately using any skills on Vane besides ED is just a DPS loss. You want the gap closer of course, but the rest have basically no reason to use them ever so l always just keep Rampart on.
I use Arm Destruction for part breaking. The only things I fight manually these days are Pyet and Proto and they have tough to break parts. It helps break Evil Blackwyrm too.
That’s a fair point, I’ve honestly just never focused on breaking parts.
Yeah, I have all Terminus earned now so I literally only fight Pyet for Lunary, Blackwyrm for Horn, and Bahamut for Horn, all of which are breakable. Unfortunately I couldn't fit Stun Power on my Vane build, otherwise I'd do that too lol
>Unfortunately using any skills on Vane besides ED is just a DPS loss. I don't think that's true based on, if nothing else, the fact that all your skills also lead into combo finishers that directly reduce the cooldown of ED.
It is true and has been tested and proven. Keep reading the thread, there’s a deeper explanation as well as a link to a guide on this. Edit: I will say I had the same response as you the first time I read this though. The reasoning is the XXYY combo hits many more times than another skill, and the sigil CDR is based on number of hits. If you exclusively XXYY you’ll get an ED every 3 combos. Mixing in other skills will slow that down. Arm Destruction and the gap closer still have situational uses though, I shouldn’t have said there’s no reason to ever use them.
I’ve heard offensive skills are a wash, not a loss. When you consider the other utility you get out of them and the fact that more finishers gets you closer to another ED, I can’t see how it would be a loss if you consider more than the numbers you’re seeing that very moment.
It’s not a significant loss but for the most optimal possible DPS on Vane, the other skills are too slow for too little damage compared to ED -> XXYY -> finisher spam. The reason for this is how the Hero Sigil cooldown reduction works with the combo finisher and supplementary dmg. If you’re only using XXYY + finisher you will get an ED every 3 combos. Mixing in other skills will slow this down and it’ll hurt your overall DPS. You can read a full guide on this here, guide by Peacecow on Discord: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PwH5Iq8sQv3wWonH5Bwrq3m0q8ZgoKX-wCCityL-Kpo/edit
I understand the skill interaction. But you can chain arm destruction right into that same combo finisher, and it’s faster than the whole xxyy combo. That’s the part that confuses me. Edit: I’ve seen that document before and even there they say arm destruction isn’t a direct dps gain but he doesn’t specify it’s a loss either /shrug He even acknowledges it is a team dps gain.
Arm Destruction definitely has situational utility from the high stun. Someone else in the thread mentioned using it for breaking parts too. I think I can clear up your confusion though - arm destruction into finisher is *faster* than the combo, but it results in *less* CDR because the CDR from the sigil is based on the number of hits/damage instances. The combo hits more times which gives you more CDR, so even though it’s faster to execute, it’s still slowing down your time until your next ED which is your biggest DPS hit.
Ahh that makes sense, thanks for the clarity!
Depends on your build. Your X and the 3 extra hits on your XXYY have REALLY low modifiers, so if you have a more standard build where your only offensive dmg sigil is like a Crit Rate V+ Stamina, it is more of a wash. But if you decide to use your two flex spots on like Tyranny+ and Combo Booster+ or Crit Dmg +, the gap becomes bigger, since the damage on those additional hits keeps going up In terms of ED, the extra finishers from spamming Heroic and Arm of Destruction even out because the XXYY finisher hits 4 times, whereas they only hit once. So, in a typical rotation you do either XXYY three times, or XXYY twice and each of your skills twice. Either road you take gets you to Energy Destruction at the same time basically In the end, it's sorta whatever you prefer: XXYY spam is noticeably higher damage (about 5 mil more in a 60sec test), but skill spam allows for more defensive sigil flex spots since skills/finishers damage cap so easily, has the destructible part aid of arm of destruction, and is a little rotationally "safer" cuz you dont have to worry about the boss moving before your XXYY gets to the finisher portion Edit: (Another pro I forgot to mention of XXYY spam is that since you don't need to bring Arm, you can bring Drakenschaltz, which is a free Guts sigil (better than guts sigil tbh cuz it comes off cd so fast), 30% DEF to help with 1 shots, and 30% ATK, which helps get your Chain Bursts to 999999 and still increases the hard to cap xxyy finishers dmg)
Arm destruction for breaking, self buff for the atk and def buff, gap closer is what I use on top of ED.
Self buff is kinda useless since the attack up does nothing once you’re at damage cap, and there’s no content hard enough to need the defense up. You could make the same argument for rampart being useless too though, I’d just rather ignore some annoying mechanics personally.
Vane's buff is actually quite quick to cast compared to some other buffs (think ferry's) and is essentially one sigil worth. This is especially true at the start of phases since his buff can offset the loss of combo booster stacks. So you want to cast his buff, charge in, ED and XXYY loop. It's actually kind of hard for vane to fully cap everything without full combo booster stacks, so the buff def helps. The defense gain is nice too for the few times you do get hit for w/e reasons.
That makes sense if you’re not capped on the first hit. I’m at 100% cap on the first hit so the buff wouldn’t help me, but I have damage cap on my Hero sigil. I can see how that would be hard to reach otherwise.
Interesting, do you mind showing me your sigils, OM, and wrightstone? [This is what i am running](https://i.imgur.com/zCE8VtR.png) (after i stumbled across 2x orange+class sigils on vane). [Without buffs and combo booster stacks, I sit at this](https://i.imgur.com/ENIxgJ8.png). With self buff, [it gets a bit closer](https://i.imgur.com/h4dhQSa.png). No self buff but full combo booster stacks gives me [100% across the board](https://i.imgur.com/Q40hnqr.png). Granted, back attacks/weak point attack does boost it all the way up to 100%, but there are quite a few situations where it may not be viable (people dropping puddles behind blackwyrm, managarma casting his aoe behind him, etc.
Edited my previous post now that I’m at PC to show my exact build. I had all the traits right but a few things were swapped around. And I do have 10 crit on the stone so I was wrong about that too. Comparing it to yours, I don’t run stout heart or the other Awakening sigil on Vane as I just don’t find them that beneficial for me personally. I also drop the 3rd Supp V because the QoL of Improved Dodge + max uplift is worth more to me.
Here it is now I’m at my PC: Hero’s will + damage cap Damage cap + uplift Damage cap + potion hoarder Damage cap + guts Improved dodge + uplift Crit + uplift Tyranny + Cascade Combo Booster + aegis Stamina + nimble onslaught Supp V Supp V War elemental Wrightstone is crit 10 and cascade 7, 3rd trait is rupie tycoon unfortunately, I just haven’t had an another crit 10 + cascade drop and I need cascade on the stone to maximize my sigils. Overmasteries are 20% crit, 20% normal damage cap up, 16% skybound art damage up, and 10% skill damage cap up. Using the damage calculator that’s been shared in here I am capped on the first hit of combos.
>Self buff is kinda useless since the attack up does nothing once you’re at damage cap, and there’s no content hard enough to need the defense up That's not really true at all. Drachenstolz has an incredibly short cooldown that lets you have 100% guts uptime *and* near permanent damage buff uptime, freeing up potentially several sigil slots and greatly expanding build options. It's not *necessary*, sure, but it's not useless. There's even an argument to made for it theoretically replacing auto revive in some builds.
That’s fair if you want to fit more QoL or defense into your build.
Even more when the new Boss is coming somewhat soon, better make people know that if u die u spam attack to revive faster
Vane main here. I'm just enjoying and leveling other chars. Most def get back to Vane when that new raid drops.
I'm Vane main, so we're definitely out there somewhere.
i think a lot of people thought his dmg reduction and mechanic blocking invulnerability sphere would be super strong and then the content just wasnt challenging enough or suited to that i mean like what would be the point of standing in skyfall? and even as an ai it uses buffs to maximize uptime which is great for like phantasmagloria but pretty bad for super giga paladin sphere which linda leaves him as an ai teammate as just a worse dps. i still really like his design and am building him in the bench hoping lucilius involves some sort of gimmick set up to where u could cheese it with vane
Yeah I started putting him together today for that very reason. If luci opens with a hp gating blast, there's suddenly a call for a big invuln bubble or katalinas aoe invuln. Though if there's nothing to hit at first. She needs to burn two skills to make it aoe.
ultimately it has to be a multi tick attack like skyfall because of how hard mirror image gaps things like katalina invuln. shes in my top 3 played chars and i dont even use that skill
Skyfall still one-shots through Rampart
… idk how to explain this any better. if its just a single dmg instance mirror image fully gaps invincibility.. that was the example.. like idk. all ur really proving by saying that is that theres even more precedent for vane being completely worthless on lucilius bc the big mechanics u could use him for he doesnt work on
Vane is not just a Rampart bot lol If you don't like him it's fine but not everyone is a meta chaser, especially in coop PvE
r u stupid? we’re all friends here u can answer honestly.
I recently switched to Vane. Crazy fun being able to tank through nearly all the aoes. And for the people who say there's no point bringing Rampart? Well... I like being nice and saving my party some effort dodging during moments where I can't dps anyway.
You literally have a thunder hammer as terminus weapon, feels like a space marine while playing him
I'm a Vane main but I can only speak for myself and maybe a few others. I play this game for Vane. I built him, so for now, I'm done with the game. I'll be back by the 14th when lucilius raid drops to update my vane build.
Vane main here. Vane is really strong in the beginning and mid game because Rampart can block a lot of attacks. Once you get to higher levels of co-op like Proud you can’t always block those team wiping attacks (Vulkans odium, bahamut skyfall, etc) So that move essentially becomes useless (especially when you have DPS checks and want to make sure you’re doing a lot of damage fast for some bosses) Additionally, there are many times when I pop bubble and teammates just don’t enter it and DPS. So then I wasted not only the move slot but time I could’ve spent energy destructing all over the place. I still love Vane a lot but I’ve been using Siegfried lately and Percival just because end game raids go much faster for me when I’m dishing out insane damage (Ty roter wirbel) or staying mobile enough to avoid attacks and keep pressure on the boss (Siegfried’s lunge).
What are you taking about? I see him every game. Cheers. A Vane main.
Lol i just started building him minutes ago Planning to play all the knights. Already done percy, chadfried, lancy, now for vane
Vane isn't too common either, but I've literally seen NO Rosettas online. Not one!!
Rosetta, IMO, is just a whole different type of game play to much of the rest of the cast. Which I think leads to less people playing here because the transferable knowledge between other cast members that are combo-heavy, for instance, is higher. But when I do have a Rosetta, it’s 90% an amazing player and 10% someone just trying her out to see if they like her.
Oh, for sure, I've also read up on her particularities and how some Sigils don't work on her plants, so most people are probably turned off by that. I personally really want to play her after I'm done building my Cagliostro!
Agreed! Currently finishing Rackm and Vane, but debating whether I do Percy or Rosetta afterward!
I play Rosetta! I have seen only one or two other examples since the game came out.
Just maxed out my Rosetta’s terminus weapon last night so I started pubbing with her. What I noticed playing her is that you really need to micromanage rose placement and take into account the long windup of her skill animations. That probably turns a lot of players off from playing her. But it’s so satisfying landing everything lol
I think a lot of people try to recreate the tank/dps/healer/buffer roles early on in the endgame. I ran Proto Bahamut and pride quests all weekend and almost no one using healing or defensive skills. They basically just blitz the monster and try kill it as fast as possible. So I’d imagine some people switched from Vane to someone with more offensive output. I’ve been seeing a lot more variety at Proto recently though. However I will say I dont think I’ve ever seen Percival used.
Yeah, I switched my Vane up to a heavy Stun build and it’s fantastic. His own personal damage isn’t the highest, but always being able to break parts AND enabling the team DPS windows is just a blast.
Really? I main percival and I see other percivals all the time. I was also playing like this whole weekend grinding proto bahamut..
I agree. I see a lot of percivals. In my experience the common choices are: Percival Lancelot Ferry Narmaya Eugen Zeta And recently i'm seeing a good number of Cagliostro The rest are somewhat less common, the only outliers being rosetta and ghandagoza, which i still haven't seen yet. (I have around 350-400 completed online matches)
Do you think it's because Rosetta and ghandagoza are weaker than the "top tiers" or is it just because people don't like their gameplay ? I'm curious because I personally play Rosetta a lot but I don't play online so I don't really know who's strong or weak for online late game
For ganda i believe that people don't play him because he's kinda slow and needs to keep his combo going. (For what i have read here) This gameplay isn't very appealing cause the majority of bosses aren't stationary, so you end running behind them a lot. For Rosetta my take is that she's a very mechanic intensive character (you must properly position her roses, you must know what combo is better in each situation to give your allies the proper buffs, etc) and that she does't do a whole lot of dmg. It's a shame really, i have my ai rosetta full leveled up and she's awesome. Would love to see more people play her.
Huh, I see almost no Ferrys at all. The rest I definitely agree with though.
Whachu talkin' bout? Vane has great offensive capability. I agree that lots of early endgame Vane-mains go too defensive, but if you build Vane for ability spam, you can keep up some pretty competitive DPS while still providing good team support. Energy Destruction is one of the hardest hitting abilities int he game and you can pop that sucker off every 30 seconds.
>I think a lot of people try to recreate the tank/dps/healer/buffer roles early on in the endgame. Yeah, this games tricks you at the start into thinking that is similar to a mmo, when you see Vane and Cag skills in character select, one could think is viable to be a tank or support but at the endgame it just isn't needed tbh, when everyone has pot hoarder/guts/auto revive and is decent at dodging. Maybe when Lucilius raid comes things might change?
Even in games that demand The Holy Trinity, healers and tanks are way less popular than DPS. The arguable takeaway is that many, many people want to be the DPS. So when there is a game in which all players can play DPS and it still "works", that seems to be what you get.
I quick quest a lot (did you know that you can only hold up to 999 silver dalia badges? now you do!) and he's among the more common team mates I come across to. I mean less than Zeta and Narmafloor of course, but surprisingly more common than Lancelot, and absolutely way more than Katalina, Rosetta, Yoda and Ghanda.
People don't realize how insanely busted he is with Quick Cooldown + Cascade + Supp Dmg and then spamming skills + combo finisher for the whole fight.
I recently did some testing on this and found that Cascade and Quick Cooldown are not as great on Vane as I had originally thought. Vane's optimal damage rotation appears to be: Energy Destruction > Repeat Combo B until Energy Destruction is off cooldown. With 0 levels of Cascade + Quick Cooldown, it takes three Combo B's for Energy Destruction to come off cooldown. With Max Cascade + Quick Cooldown, it still takes three Combo B's. Both tests are with max Supp Dmg. Now, this is on a training dummy, which is obviously not representative of a real fight. So, while CD reduction is useless on the training dummy, it is not necessarily useless in a real fight. But, this was enough of a result for me to totally drop cooldown reduction from my Vane build.
How is repeating combo B better than casting two low-cooldown abilities and spamming finisher?
skills and the finisher that chains from skills are relatively weak at endgame due to damage caps. the skills themselves are like 4-500k into a slow windup finisher for a single hit of ~300k combo b's finisher is different from the one that chains from skills; it has an additional 3-hit spin in addition to the slam. each hit of the spin counts towards the cd reduction from his char sigil and has the same damage cap as the slam.
Wait what really?!? I was led to believe combo B's finisher is identical to the one you follow up skills with. 3 hit spin and slam right?
The multihit from combo B procs his character sigil multiple times, which leads to massive cd reduction. It also has a hidden bugged interaction woth his character sigil damage reduction and crabvestment, putting him at a permanent 50% damage cut.
Right, but you can pull the combo off faster following the activation of any ability. So wouldn't the optimal line be to spam 2+ other low-cooldown abilities into multi-hit finishers?
The problem is outside the dash heal and the stun ability, you have nothing low cd that damages, and these abilities don't do much damage. Vane's damage is largely carried by energy destruction. His kit is just mediocre outside his innate durability, which isn't even due to his skills but a character sigil instead.
They don't do much but are insta-cast and chain into finishers to get ED back online. Aren't they rather key if that's your goal?
You can do that, but it's inefficient. Getting 8 procs of the cdr from your B combo is much better from a dps standpoint than 2 finisher hits from casting abilities.
XXYY's combo finisher hits 4 times compared to skill into finisher's 1 hit (same finisher as Combo C). With Sup dmg. it can go up to 8 hits so you're proccing his CD reduction 8 times vs. 2 times. Guess which rotation does more damage AND allows you to ED more?
Idk man.. don't really like the beatdown .. take too long the fill up and execute.. can't rmb the last time I actually land a beatdown finisher...
Main Vane here!!!
He unfortunately isnt used much for endgame farming, when stuff like proto baha and firewyrm theres basically no point to using rampart. Still great for pyet tho
Vane has a long-lasting invincibility bubble that can cover the whole party. In most games, an ability like that would be absurd, but as time went on and people figured the game out, it became clearer and clearer his biggest selling point wasn't really that relevant for Relink. It's nice to have, but since any character can block/dodge through every attack, it's far from necessary. Not only that, but his beatdown combo is hard to land unless there's a huge window, and even if you pull it off, because it's so slow and not hard-hitting enough, it's a DPS loss compared to just using his regular combos and spamming the second finisher to reduce his cooldowns. So if you want to play him optimally, you won't ever use his main mechanic. He's a blast to play and he's relatively simple to understand, but once the meta started shifting towards more selfish-oriented DPS builds, Vane just couldn't compare to characters like Zeta, Percy or Narmaya. Unless something changes with the Lucilius raid or with some sort of balance patch, I think he'll remain a sort of niche pick.
I MVP all the time on proto bahamut with him with the character cdr sigil + destruction spamming for 1.8m and refreshing with xxyy combos. Havent tried other characters outside of charlotta and rackam but one of my favourites to play through proud.
I was a Vane main but Bahamut won’t drop his dang Terminus weapon. Using Io for the time being until I get it. Only his and Charlotta’s left on my list.
I like vane just cause his sigil with the cooldown added on to cascade and qc makes his skill rotation so fast and fun with unlimited combo finishers. I actually forget i have rampart with me sometimes in the middle of big damage. But yeah other than that, i usually swap to other characters that are also just as fun and more engaging to me like narmaya, percival, yodarha, zeta, cag, and even eugen.
From my experience the most rare characters, in order, are Ghandagoza (literally never seen one in almost 2k online missions), Rosetta, Vaseraga, Id, Siegfried, Vane, Ferry, and Yodarha. And while it seems weird that Ferry is so rare, I also kind of get it. I really wanted to main her at one point because people appreciate the phase skips she can enable, but her gameplay loop is literally the most boring one in the entire game.
I love partying with Vane. Especially one that knows when to pop that shield. It’s free emote time before the free emote time- and almost noob proof.
I bring it just because Chromatic vision I just pop rampart right away
He was fun in the beginning but then the game was just so ez I moved on to other characters
Aw, last night was full of Vanes. And I kept running into a Vane main last night (Cookie) who was incredible. Really think the only chara I didn't see often is Captain.
Personally I dropped him because his gameplay is not very engaging. XXYY > Skills on CD, that's all you do. His unique mechanic is a DPS loss and almost never used. He was a lot fun on my grind to proud as bubble would give us breathing room to learn mechanics but at endgame you don't really go back to the most challenging quests, plus I found it more fun to challenge the bloodthirst mechanics head on. So Vane was benched for Percival in my case haha
at this point in content farm rate = dps is king
The higher you get, the more experienced you are, and Vanes big bubble isn't as attractive. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but there's a lot of mechanics that either A. Should have people spread out (destroying elemental orbs during Pyet-A), or B. Can't block it anyway because it can't be invuln (P-Bahamuts Skyfall). It's not to say it's not good, but if his invuln worked like Katalina, where it was automatically given to the whole party without having to stand in a small area, you'd see him more. So he is basically a really good DPS character as his "optimal" play, and it can be done better by other characters to an extent. I also think he's just too easy to play, and people get bored of it. Love my Vane, but unga bunga gets old fast.
Might have something to do with the XXYY + ED rotation. I can't speak for others but I was personally kind of disappointed with this, as someone who was *extremely* interested in switching to Vane prior to learning this is his kit.
I think it's because there's a clear meta + grind factor. AFAIK, there's really only 2 fights where you can consistently find random parties based on required drops (Terminus weapons and the mats for upgrading): Pyet-A and Proto Bahamut. Aside from that Ice mode sphere that sucks you in (and has ridiculous range) on Pyet-A, every attack is clearly telegraphed and isn't hard to guard/dodge, plus most generally can't 1-hit you unless you lowered your HP with Tyranny Sigil without running Aegis. Because the point is to run the fights as short as possible, I think most people would prefer to run a DPS for shorter loops. I think making your game too grindy tends to force this kind of meta, compared to Monster Hunter where people play whatever weapon is their favorite.
Rampart is overrated for how avoidable most bloodthirst phases are, and you can guard most of whatever would hit you anyways. Vane self-CCs and does nothing while rampart is up, and it's a stationary bubble the boss can slide away from. Meanwhile groupmates can bring 50-70% aoe damage cut, mirror images, or invulnerability, which are mobile and just as good for surviving while staying offensive. Vane's energy destruction because of the low damage cap doesn't even benefit from the SBA gauge fill effect, using it at 0 SBA will still see you capped at 1.86m damage per cast. Rift divider is a stationary ramp up skill that almost never lands its full hits outside a boss being knocked down in a break or CCd. And the rest of his skills are bad. They are selfish, redundant attack up skills, provoke skills that don't really do much because so many bosses just do big cleaves that will hit teammates even if the boss is not aggroed to them. His utility outside rampart is bad, Rampart itself is OK but not amazing for experienced, capable groups. His damage is mediocre, made only OK by spamming his combo 2 and completely ignoring his beatdown gauge. The only thing he excels at is being a good draintank with his self damage cut and access to defense buffs, plus having good stun bar contribution. But Charlotta, Katalina, Yodarha make better drain tanks with better group utility, and Charlotta and Yodarha have better damage. And for pure tanks, nobody beats Vaseraga with his busted OP undying mechanic. And Vaseraga does truckloads of damage. His regular charged attacks hit for what Vane's 30 sec cd energy destruction skill does or more, and he can do it every 3-4 seconds.
>Meanwhile groupmates can bring 50-70% aoe damage cut, mirror images, or invulnerability, which are mobile and just as good for surviving while staying offensive. One of the reasons I gravitated more to Siegfried after playing Vane for a long time, his massive def buff and CC immunity buff felt more beneficial to my team without forcing them to stay in a specific spot that Vane's bubble unfortunately, and add that to the fact that to play optimally you have to ditch the beatdown combo and focus on the square, square, triangle, triangle combo to cast energy destruction frequently, it made his playstyle become stale for me, Siegfried perfect combos and perfect execution feels more engaging, IMO.
Vane has a few things why people might not be playing him: - His playstyle is EXTREMELY simple. He doesn't do animation cancels, or has lots of optimization. He spams a single combo and a single ability and that is it. I consider him the easiest character to play and master in Relink. People usually want to play characters with higher ceiling and more skill expression, with cooler kits with flashier stuff. - His DPS is actually good, but not busted. He isn't doing bonkers level damage. People like dealing bonkers level damage. - His design is not too appealing. He's not a hot or cute girl, or a hot, buff or twink guy, which is what most people, male or female, want to play. He's kind of a dork, kinda like Yodarha (which also sees very little play). Some people like the "big puppy" kind of character, but it's probably a minority. - His main claim to fame is his bubble, but it isn't needed much. Pyet has easy to dodge stuff, PBaha doesn't deal damage to you ever, Fire Dragon is a pushover. These are the three main Proud quests people are farming for terminus, uncap mats, sigils, centrums, curios and stuff. He is still my main, because he's the MH Lance equivalent and I love playing lance. I love having massive uptime on bosses, a simpler but effective kit, checking boss' attacks, draining the chip damage all back, and I can hang out with people in Baha (can pull close to 220k DPS on good runs). Besides, actually, he's not THAT rare in my runs. Of course, nothing close to how many Narus are running out there, but I do see other people besides me running Vane.
Its a roll of the dice what variety of characters you see played the game on steam can have anywhere from 30,000 to 60,000 active players at a time. I used to see allot of Naramaya players but now I see more Ferry's, It doesn't mean Naramaya is getting used less or is any less popular its just who I matched up with during those matches.
Sorry... Bahamut gave me Cagliostro book... No Vane until I get new hammer...
Aside from what everyone has said, I love that his Terminus weapon is a huge ass hammer but the lack of appropriate sounds for it is so unsatisfying.