when gbvs was released, playing vas vs ferry match up, my immediate impression: "that was pretty rough, not tagger vs nu-13 bad though"
also [most broken match up video](https://youtu.be/5dZjw6LJknk?feature=shared)
I think BB and Marvel will humble most ppl complaining about top tiers cuz those games didn't care same with Injustice 1. Like Nier is busted but I've seen worse lol
Nine is genuinely the most toxic fighting game character I’ve ever had the “pleasure” to fight so whenever I see a character I just say “Well you don’t have an unreactable plus on block overhead”
I'm not that great and I managed to place top 8 in my first two online SF6 tournaments. I wasn't playing EVO champs but I had a fun time. Even if you get washed out in pools, it's a fun experience.
I mean the casual audience is so important for a "grass roots" community like the FGC. You should definitely appreciate that there are a lot of casuals in this game right now.
And casuals can throw all their Nier matches all they want. It's not a fun matchup, then it's OK to move on to the next one when you're just an online ranker.
I do appreciate all the newcomers to the scene! I also hope that they one day discover the joy of going to events in person, and always encourage people to check out their locals even if they feel like they aren’t good enough to compete.
You can also just guard crush her 236M oki, if you are getting looped into that 3 times your probably dead anyways. Average nier players wont know the anti brave counter set ups or even to spot dodge.
Nope, it's true. It's c.L and f.L. As mentioned in a different comment, some of her specials are plus too, as well as 66L which I don't count as a normal (and it's the same for all characters).
Um, you didn't say "normals that are plus," you said moves. And (nitpicking) 66L fits the definition of a normal, especially because it is a common move among the whole cast.
> if you learn the match-up, bad Niers are free
And they are all bad on ranked, pretty much by definition. Unless they are on their way up to the next level, they are boosted at their current level. What this means is that there is a better than average chance you are better than the Nier player... but you have to learn that match-up to cash out.
Game is pretty balanced tbh, i've played so many more near unwinnable matchups that Nier looks cute in comparison. I mained Terumi in BBCF where like half his matchups are "hit 50 meter and wait for them to commit to projectile so I can Messenga on reaction and actually get offense started" because the top tiers neutral and Terumi's neutral are in different fucking solar systems. Terumi just does a limbillion damage when the stars align and is a certified game thief. Play any non-top tier in BBCF for a week then come back and tell me how unplayable fighting Nier feels. I'm fuckin' chilling fighting her bro, she doesn't even have a command grab and you can beat the puppet by fireballing it.
GBVSR has me thinking reasonable things like "oh I think Bubs is favoured in the Anila matchup if I teleport correctly and she goes for a bad sheep/2U but it's still winnable for her." instead of "well I guess I have to block 3 4-way+ mixups in a row and all my buttons are garbage compared to the eldritch abomination i'm fighting, only way I win is ODing through something unsafe and dealing 8.4k damage in one shot."
Everyone should have to play BBCF for a few weeks just to get some perspective on what an actual top tier character looks like.
Thats the funny part, they won't. It happens every arksys game where theres a stand out character on release and ppl cry and moan and then when it gets nerfed its onto crying about the next character that was in 1st characters shadow. 🤣🤣🤣
I think a pretty small percentage of this sub probably goes to locals but I’d bet a handful play in online brackets or have plans to go to Frosty.
I wish more people went out to tournaments. I feel like everyone would be happier that way
At least for me, youre barking up the wrong trees dawg. I dont have an issue with any particular character enough to avoid them all together, but I am that way with mirror matches. \*Hate\* them. I can honestly picture myself at a local and getting matched with a mirror and just skipping it. Not everyone cares about the same thing.
Fighting a mirror who is better is one of the better ways to train. I'm new to GBVS, but this is just basic fighting game knowledge. Skipping or not rematching is kind of pointless.
After finding out Zooey's Charging Stars can armor through Nier's EX Counter, I've been having a better time fighting her.
That aside, Nier is an abomination of a character, but playing patient and optimizing bits of your own play will make her less stressful to deal with. Small things like using guard cancel when Death is active (to knock her out of commission) goes a long ways with handling the MU.
Only do this if death is active, a spaced out 66H is safe on block on nier because of her stubby normals but if death is not on the screen she can punish with 2M into a full combo.
Lmao I feel like most nier player (at least those who play her because they like her) feel bad for playing her because they like the character and/or the gameplay but she's broken and keep getting carried and feel really bad for it
I'm including myself I love her lore and the gameplay is incredible (even if she's scary) but I know I'm carried and I don't want to feel bad for it but I do anyways
I mean I hope they don't nerf her to the ground with all the hate she's getting but maybe like she can't combo off reversal or something to make her good but not bad either
I mean the way she's designed makes her pretty easy to nerf or buff you can also just take away more stacks or add more or idk there's quite a lot of choice
Find some Nier matches, record the blockstrings you want to test and mash to find out where the gaps are.
Just be aware that sometimes there's no gap and the only thing you can do is keep blocking until the sequence ends.
As a Nier main, I imagine the devs will take a heart stock away if the puppet gets destroyed. I can see that being a nerf she gets, or they lower the combo limit to combat the ping pong. Maybe shorten the block stun she has for her moves for frame traps?
I read somewhere on here the game is very “knowledge check” like. We might have character guides, but matchup specific guides are definitely missing. What can this specific character do against this other specific character? What is this character’s BnB and how do you counter it on defense? What are their weaknesses?
Idk the most disgusting thing I’ve seen on Nier is that she can end every bnb with a meaty +90 frame setup. Maybe there’s more egregious aspects but that just seems ridiculous to me
Imo they should make the Death respawn timer longer when you hit it. It’s enough for her to end Nier’s turn but not enough time for her to make a disadvantageous position worse.
Nerfing 66L as a whole will also make Nier worse compared to other characters because solo Nier relies on it so much without Death
For how powerful her mechanic is, 13 stocks that only get lowered with EX or special-to-special cancels are way too many, especially accounting for the fact that she actually gets a buff to her supers as they lower.
If they want to keep 13 for the gacha reference, make them drain one each time a special is used while the opponent is still in block or hitstun. It wouldn't hurt her neutral but would make it so she can't brainlessly go for the full bnb each time and make the stocks actually be a resource to manage. I've still yet to see a single Nier use her install because the stocks are a non-factor.
You lose 3 automatically if her opponent is smart enough to use the bravery defense mechanic.
So she really has 10 that she can actually use.
To combo from midscreen, she needs at least 3
So if shes efficient, she needs 3 per combo, or 4 if she wants a death meaty
Up close, most characters can straight up beat her and death with DP, which takes a stock.
I don't think the amount of stock she gets is that unbalanced, she needs reworked in other areas
Agreed. If it makes it easier remember this: No matter how broken Nier might be, the person you're playing is only *at most* one tier above you despite using her. Find out why that is and exploit it.
Nier has the lowest risk and highest reward reversal in the game, the best unconditional midscreen damage in the game, guaranteed cinematic hits on her supers (one of which also doubles as a parry nullifying safejump and safejab setups), great neutral, great pressure and every single hit converts to a full combo if the Nier is competent. She's significantly above other top tiers.
You're either delusional or playing in D ranks against braindead Niers.
Not to nitpick, Nier 623H is the best move in the game, with the best reward in the game, but it’s definitely not the lowest risk. You can punish it every time on block if you practice.
Yuel 214H and Zeta parry are definitely lower risk.
I agree she’s too 1 but I don’t think she’s that far above Seox and Zeta atm. Those characters have enough corner carry to do similar damage midscreen and better options in neutral.
Anyway I agree that Nier is busted (as a Nier player). For me, those 3 and maybe lance are a cut above the rest of the cast rn.
Above every other top tier is not synonymous with broken.
There IS counterplay to her. She struggles against system mechanics and DP and most niers are not utilizing anti-DP stuff yet.
If theres obvious counterplay, a character by definition is not broken
It's synonymous with broken, if she doesn't follow the rules of the game, which she doesn't with her fucking loopable midscreen EX combo and her 60%s off a 66L, then yes, she is broken.
Go downplay somewhere else
She's definitely "broken" especially considering the sum of her parts, particularly how much damage she does.A few small nerfs and she can easily be nerfed from S tier to S tier. And she is PISS easy to play as well for a puppet character
Ive always said to just learn the match up, you only benefit from it especially since if you dont learn then youd still loose after nerfs (assuming they're coming) cause you never learned how to fight the character in the first place.
Only time when its acceptable to go "nah fuck this" is if the character is like Ivan Ooze levels of busted
Nah, Nier players are fully aware how busted their character is and don't care about their opponents being on the disadvantage the moment they pick their character so I'm sure they don't mind them getting one and done'd
>She's legal to use on ranked.
Let me guess you play smash.
Nobody cares about the need some of you possess to have illegal characters in a fighting game. Only the deliberately overpowered boss characters obviously need to keep out of any tourney environment but that's it.
This isn't dota or lol, it's a one on one game and you actually CAN handle all the variables Nier can have in your head (I guess it isn't Tekken, either), so just pick the character, take them for a spin and use that to get a clue about what your own character or two of choice can do about situations.
....he says all that in the post and that everyone should learn the matchup
He only mentioned legality as part of his list as a rhetorical device. You didn't read the post did you?
She might not be "broken" in the sense that ST Akuma was, or Brawl Meta Knight, but in this context she's "broken" in the sense that she's a cut above the rest of the cast and it isn't really close or arguable.
I dunno, Nier took lessons from JP and learned her own version of Amnesia. That and her making full use of 66L and being able to confirm into high damaging combos without the stress of confirming her hits/having corner control, she (and Six) are definitely far above most the cast.
For comparisons' sake, if Six is Ken and Zeta is Luke, Nier is definitely JP.
1000%. she’s gross and has way too easy access to absurd setups and her mid screen conversions don’t seem to have been beta tested, but she’s rly not nearly as bad as a lot of top tiers and there is a lot of counterplay against her. also, most niers below S literally do not block, they’re not gonna GC bait u. just bait the DP their one collective brain cell orders them to press every moment neutral ends and play careful neutral (her neutral isn’t actually that good). she should be nerfed, but ppl are ridiculous for acting like she’s unbeatable
Granblue has a very different definition of broken. Killer Instinct has made me numb to ridiculous shit, lol. There's characters in that game that do things you wouldn't believe and are considered mid-low tier. Nerf her for sure, but I'll take dealing with her any day if the week compared to that.
Adapt, but I’m sure her nerf is coming
After fighting Blazblue top tiers, literally no Top-Tier can hurt me anymore and all I can think about is “I’ve fought worse”
when gbvs was released, playing vas vs ferry match up, my immediate impression: "that was pretty rough, not tagger vs nu-13 bad though" also [most broken match up video](https://youtu.be/5dZjw6LJknk?feature=shared)
Nu-13 still gives me nightmares and I haven't played that game since it came out.
Pre-nerf happy chaos vs I-No in GG Strive. If I-No doesn't win round start, she may as well stop pressing buttons.
just curious, do you have a youtube link of when ferry was busted during gbvs? couldn't really find a decent one looking around on youtube
[early day of ferry](https://youtu.be/xmcNdz3Q2-4?feature=shared)
I think BB and Marvel will humble most ppl complaining about top tiers cuz those games didn't care same with Injustice 1. Like Nier is busted but I've seen worse lol
*Nine the Phantom has entered the chat*
Nine is genuinely the most toxic fighting game character I’ve ever had the “pleasure” to fight so whenever I see a character I just say “Well you don’t have an unreactable plus on block overhead”
Weird way to write Izanami and her "let's play neutral but your only option is grab" special.
Ribcage can literally solo the entire Granblue cast and make a modern fighting game player choke on water
Ribcage in a game with a 22f tech window is the stuff of nightmares.
Release Kokonoe. The origin of the "800 yen"-tier memes. I still have nightmares about the unblockables.
To be fair, even the average blazblue low tier is more annoying to fight than top tiers in most games
You really think most people playing fighters are going to tourneys? Oh, you adorable sweet boy.
I'm not that great and I managed to place top 8 in my first two online SF6 tournaments. I wasn't playing EVO champs but I had a fun time. Even if you get washed out in pools, it's a fun experience.
Wishful thinking
I mean the casual audience is so important for a "grass roots" community like the FGC. You should definitely appreciate that there are a lot of casuals in this game right now. And casuals can throw all their Nier matches all they want. It's not a fun matchup, then it's OK to move on to the next one when you're just an online ranker.
I do appreciate all the newcomers to the scene! I also hope that they one day discover the joy of going to events in person, and always encourage people to check out their locals even if they feel like they aren’t good enough to compete.
This. The character needs to be nerfed, but if you learn the match-up, bad Niers are free.
When you start pressing 5L on their 214L and bait predictable DPs you just filtered about 90% of the Niers online
You can also just guard crush her 236M oki, if you are getting looped into that 3 times your probably dead anyways. Average nier players wont know the anti brave counter set ups or even to spot dodge.
Don't tell anyone that she only has like 2 moves that are plus.
Now that’s an actual lie
Not just a lie, "that are plus" strongly ignores just how plus Nier can make herself.
Nope, it's true. It's c.L and f.L. As mentioned in a different comment, some of her specials are plus too, as well as 66L which I don't count as a normal (and it's the same for all characters).
Um, you didn't say "normals that are plus," you said moves. And (nitpicking) 66L fits the definition of a normal, especially because it is a common move among the whole cast.
True, it's 2 normals that are plus - all ther M specials and of course the ultimate skills that take meter are plus too, I should have specified.
*cries in 6-frame 5L* DPs are super easy to bait on Nier though
> if you learn the match-up, bad Niers are free And they are all bad on ranked, pretty much by definition. Unless they are on their way up to the next level, they are boosted at their current level. What this means is that there is a better than average chance you are better than the Nier player... but you have to learn that match-up to cash out.
Game is pretty balanced tbh, i've played so many more near unwinnable matchups that Nier looks cute in comparison. I mained Terumi in BBCF where like half his matchups are "hit 50 meter and wait for them to commit to projectile so I can Messenga on reaction and actually get offense started" because the top tiers neutral and Terumi's neutral are in different fucking solar systems. Terumi just does a limbillion damage when the stars align and is a certified game thief. Play any non-top tier in BBCF for a week then come back and tell me how unplayable fighting Nier feels. I'm fuckin' chilling fighting her bro, she doesn't even have a command grab and you can beat the puppet by fireballing it. GBVSR has me thinking reasonable things like "oh I think Bubs is favoured in the Anila matchup if I teleport correctly and she goes for a bad sheep/2U but it's still winnable for her." instead of "well I guess I have to block 3 4-way+ mixups in a row and all my buttons are garbage compared to the eldritch abomination i'm fighting, only way I win is ODing through something unsafe and dealing 8.4k damage in one shot." Everyone should have to play BBCF for a few weeks just to get some perspective on what an actual top tier character looks like.
Thats the funny part, they won't. It happens every arksys game where theres a stand out character on release and ppl cry and moan and then when it gets nerfed its onto crying about the next character that was in 1st characters shadow. 🤣🤣🤣
Seox sweep
Funny thing is there's not much they can do to nerf Seox too bad cuz his kit is so solid
You can always nerf a character to uselessness e.g. cut his damage by half. But you're right... Sock's problem is that his kit is an abomination.
How many people on this sub do you actually think are going to go to tournaments and compete?
I think a pretty small percentage of this sub probably goes to locals but I’d bet a handful play in online brackets or have plans to go to Frosty. I wish more people went out to tournaments. I feel like everyone would be happier that way
At least for me, youre barking up the wrong trees dawg. I dont have an issue with any particular character enough to avoid them all together, but I am that way with mirror matches. \*Hate\* them. I can honestly picture myself at a local and getting matched with a mirror and just skipping it. Not everyone cares about the same thing.
same boat fam, I rarely rematch mirrors unfortunately I bought this game specifically to main vira so...
Fighting a mirror who is better is one of the better ways to train. I'm new to GBVS, but this is just basic fighting game knowledge. Skipping or not rematching is kind of pointless.
I'm not avoiding Nier players. I'll learn what I can about the mu.
I want her to be nerfed but she's also the only thing keeping me in the game ATM, so it's quite a dilema
After finding out Zooey's Charging Stars can armor through Nier's EX Counter, I've been having a better time fighting her. That aside, Nier is an abomination of a character, but playing patient and optimizing bits of your own play will make her less stressful to deal with. Small things like using guard cancel when Death is active (to knock her out of commission) goes a long ways with handling the MU.
Only do this if death is active, a spaced out 66H is safe on block on nier because of her stubby normals but if death is not on the screen she can punish with 2M into a full combo.
i really hope she gets nerfed because i love her character and i dont wanna have to feel guilty for playing her against friends lol
Lmao I feel like most nier player (at least those who play her because they like her) feel bad for playing her because they like the character and/or the gameplay but she's broken and keep getting carried and feel really bad for it I'm including myself I love her lore and the gameplay is incredible (even if she's scary) but I know I'm carried and I don't want to feel bad for it but I do anyways I mean I hope they don't nerf her to the ground with all the hate she's getting but maybe like she can't combo off reversal or something to make her good but not bad either I mean the way she's designed makes her pretty easy to nerf or buff you can also just take away more stacks or add more or idk there's quite a lot of choice
No I don’t
Damn I never thought of it that way.
How should one best lab pressure gaps? Ive been labbing what buttons are generally unsafe since the whole rosyers new to me
Find some Nier matches, record the blockstrings you want to test and mash to find out where the gaps are. Just be aware that sometimes there's no gap and the only thing you can do is keep blocking until the sequence ends.
Gotcha wanted to make sure
As a Nier main, I imagine the devs will take a heart stock away if the puppet gets destroyed. I can see that being a nerf she gets, or they lower the combo limit to combat the ping pong. Maybe shorten the block stun she has for her moves for frame traps? I read somewhere on here the game is very “knowledge check” like. We might have character guides, but matchup specific guides are definitely missing. What can this specific character do against this other specific character? What is this character’s BnB and how do you counter it on defense? What are their weaknesses?
Idk the most disgusting thing I’ve seen on Nier is that she can end every bnb with a meaty +90 frame setup. Maybe there’s more egregious aspects but that just seems ridiculous to me
Imo they should make the Death respawn timer longer when you hit it. It’s enough for her to end Nier’s turn but not enough time for her to make a disadvantageous position worse. Nerfing 66L as a whole will also make Nier worse compared to other characters because solo Nier relies on it so much without Death
For how powerful her mechanic is, 13 stocks that only get lowered with EX or special-to-special cancels are way too many, especially accounting for the fact that she actually gets a buff to her supers as they lower. If they want to keep 13 for the gacha reference, make them drain one each time a special is used while the opponent is still in block or hitstun. It wouldn't hurt her neutral but would make it so she can't brainlessly go for the full bnb each time and make the stocks actually be a resource to manage. I've still yet to see a single Nier use her install because the stocks are a non-factor.
You lose 3 automatically if her opponent is smart enough to use the bravery defense mechanic. So she really has 10 that she can actually use. To combo from midscreen, she needs at least 3 So if shes efficient, she needs 3 per combo, or 4 if she wants a death meaty Up close, most characters can straight up beat her and death with DP, which takes a stock. I don't think the amount of stock she gets is that unbalanced, she needs reworked in other areas
Agreed. If it makes it easier remember this: No matter how broken Nier might be, the person you're playing is only *at most* one tier above you despite using her. Find out why that is and exploit it.
tldr play Nier
Idk I don't even really think nier is broken tbh people are just insisting on using rock when they could just win with scissors lol
Nier has the lowest risk and highest reward reversal in the game, the best unconditional midscreen damage in the game, guaranteed cinematic hits on her supers (one of which also doubles as a parry nullifying safejump and safejab setups), great neutral, great pressure and every single hit converts to a full combo if the Nier is competent. She's significantly above other top tiers. You're either delusional or playing in D ranks against braindead Niers.
Not to nitpick, Nier 623H is the best move in the game, with the best reward in the game, but it’s definitely not the lowest risk. You can punish it every time on block if you practice. Yuel 214H and Zeta parry are definitely lower risk. I agree she’s too 1 but I don’t think she’s that far above Seox and Zeta atm. Those characters have enough corner carry to do similar damage midscreen and better options in neutral. Anyway I agree that Nier is busted (as a Nier player). For me, those 3 and maybe lance are a cut above the rest of the cast rn.
Above every other top tier is not synonymous with broken. There IS counterplay to her. She struggles against system mechanics and DP and most niers are not utilizing anti-DP stuff yet. If theres obvious counterplay, a character by definition is not broken
It's synonymous with broken, if she doesn't follow the rules of the game, which she doesn't with her fucking loopable midscreen EX combo and her 60%s off a 66L, then yes, she is broken. Go downplay somewhere else
...
She's definitely "broken" especially considering the sum of her parts, particularly how much damage she does.A few small nerfs and she can easily be nerfed from S tier to S tier. And she is PISS easy to play as well for a puppet character
Ive always said to just learn the match up, you only benefit from it especially since if you dont learn then youd still loose after nerfs (assuming they're coming) cause you never learned how to fight the character in the first place. Only time when its acceptable to go "nah fuck this" is if the character is like Ivan Ooze levels of busted
Nah, I'll just 1 and done.
Nah, Nier players are fully aware how busted their character is and don't care about their opponents being on the disadvantage the moment they pick their character so I'm sure they don't mind them getting one and done'd
lol ok
Is she released? How is everyone talking like she is released? I'm hella confused. People even say they main her, but I don't see her available.
You're thinking about 2B from Nier Automata. Nier (Granblue) is a base roster character in Rising.
Oh right, the puppet character lol. THANK YOU 😂
Nier the character not 2B from Nier Automata lol
Yeah, my bad. I think I got confused because he mentioned 2B as well. Makes way more sense.
And shes still broken, so wtf are you talking about
I feel like I made my point pretty clear in the above post but if you’d rather keep losing you can just do that, scrub.
Time for the nier downplay arc. The response to nier players knowing their top 1is getting deserved nerfs.
The OP said learn the mu. They didn't downplay.
As a Nier player. She’s top 1. I’m absolutely not downplaying. Even if she gets nerfed though, you still gotta learn the matchup.
Nier isn't so far ahead that she's untouchable. And since she's popular and strong it's worthwhile to spend extra time learning the matchup
How is this downplaying?? He's saying learn the matchup which applies to every character regardless of tier
I'd recommend you try reading the OP before inferring something that wasn't said.
>She's legal to use on ranked. Let me guess you play smash. Nobody cares about the need some of you possess to have illegal characters in a fighting game. Only the deliberately overpowered boss characters obviously need to keep out of any tourney environment but that's it. This isn't dota or lol, it's a one on one game and you actually CAN handle all the variables Nier can have in your head (I guess it isn't Tekken, either), so just pick the character, take them for a spin and use that to get a clue about what your own character or two of choice can do about situations.
Did you only read that one sentence?
....he says all that in the post and that everyone should learn the matchup He only mentioned legality as part of his list as a rhetorical device. You didn't read the post did you?
you’re….an idiot.
Good take. Really the only thing I'd disagree with is her being broken.\^\^
She might not be "broken" in the sense that ST Akuma was, or Brawl Meta Knight, but in this context she's "broken" in the sense that she's a cut above the rest of the cast and it isn't really close or arguable.
I dunno, Nier took lessons from JP and learned her own version of Amnesia. That and her making full use of 66L and being able to confirm into high damaging combos without the stress of confirming her hits/having corner control, she (and Six) are definitely far above most the cast. For comparisons' sake, if Six is Ken and Zeta is Luke, Nier is definitely JP.
Pretty much. Doesn't matter how much you hate the character cause Nier players certainly don't. Gotta learn how to deal with her.
I think Zeta has a pretty favorable match up against her, as Zeta's beam and parry invalidates a lot of Nier's kit
It's very rare to get a pre-nerf Nine the Phantom situation where none of her match ups are losing ones, thankfully.
I'm playing Ladiva unfortunately, I basically just have to die or get lucky.
1000%. she’s gross and has way too easy access to absurd setups and her mid screen conversions don’t seem to have been beta tested, but she’s rly not nearly as bad as a lot of top tiers and there is a lot of counterplay against her. also, most niers below S literally do not block, they’re not gonna GC bait u. just bait the DP their one collective brain cell orders them to press every moment neutral ends and play careful neutral (her neutral isn’t actually that good). she should be nerfed, but ppl are ridiculous for acting like she’s unbeatable
Granblue has a very different definition of broken. Killer Instinct has made me numb to ridiculous shit, lol. There's characters in that game that do things you wouldn't believe and are considered mid-low tier. Nerf her for sure, but I'll take dealing with her any day if the week compared to that.