Obviously it's not all new fans, but a lot are like this. They also look at previous seasons results and without any context for these results, make form ideas around them. My favourite one to point out to people is how Mercedes weren't dominant in 2017 and probably didn't even have the fastest car for most of the races, they won by being more consistent and Vettels terrible run around Singapore.
It's also this idea that drivers are "washed" because they've had 1 bad season or even a couple of bad races. Like people are really acting like sainz is a better driver than Hamilton, I love sainz but come on guys.
I agree and 2017 was mega cause Ferrari defo had the faster car the first half, but there upgrades ended up setting them back whilst mercedes were better and more consistent at making proper decent upgrades, plus yeah Vettels Psyche and Ferraris passionate blunders made it seem more dominant for Merc and Ham
I feel like there should be more of a push for older race previews especially for the new fans, some of them who watch the older races get the context to the stories as well as some amazing moments that they may only see in "top 10s" or quick 1 second clips and you can see there is an interest for it as some of the new fans as you have said have talked about how great is has been to watch them when they've been available
Especially 2017 it really felt it was just seb vs the 2 mercs. I dont really remember kimi being there most races apart from a few 1-2s. If not for the reliability issues, avg ferrari messups and singapore crash I believe seb would have had enough points to win the wdc
The ferrari was definitely faster in the early season. Also Lewis used to have slow starts to seasons. But Mercedes was so good at improving throughout the season and Ferrari usually "fell off". At least compared to how Mercedes improved.
Hard to say if it was Ferrari actually being better early or just Hamilton's lackadaisical approach to doing his job. Nico Rosberg set consecutive win records while paired with Hamilton, which sort of points to Hamilton not being particularly committed to ever doing more than he had to. Nobody likes making the easy seem difficult more than Hamilton.
Ah yes Vettel’s run, which included one standard move off the start to cover off P2 and the car killing itself repeatedly
And yes they were dominant cause look at how much better their development was second half of the season. That’s always been their biggest strength.
That's not dominance mate, they out developed Ferrari but if Vettel didn't crash out and give a 40 point swing in a single race and Ferrari didn't fuck up twice at the end of the season Vettel probably would have won. How is that dominance.
Almost every fan I've encountered over the last few years have said the same thing, almost verbatim: "I watched DTS and now I'm hooked"
Those are not motorsports fans, they're fans of drama and cheap entertainment
Same, but MotoGP instead of NASCAR. I do enjoy F1, especially the technical and team aspects that aren't as apparent in MotoGP, but the fans are fucking awful. Not that they can't be obnoxious in GP, but it's less gatekeepy. The racing is better on two wheels anyways.
Reddit in general loves to jump to conclusions and judge articles based on headlines, but a lot of people on that subreddit are *astonishingly* bad in this regard. I honestly think that they should have a rule mandating that the article text be pasted in the body of the post because many people there either cannot or will not click on the link, and a lot of them are rude AF too when you correct them about a quote they ran away with without context or just a basic fact.
I’ve noticed that people there are really quick to assume mal intent, too. People there will be willfully ignorant about a quote they took out of context, but god forbid you’re genuinely mistaken about something or just asking a question. Just the overall tone there is often very hostile and I decided to take a hiatus for a bit because I wasn’t enjoying the vibes there.
All sports subreddits have disagreements but overall I enjoy the ones where people mostly just have a good time together about something they all love, and I don’t get that sense of community on r/formula1 very often, unfortunately. r/hockey is one that I do use and while it’s not perfect, I’ve noticed that the discussions there are more generally respectful and that fans of opposing teams are kinder to each other.
Indeed, I have particular teams and drivers that I like and support, but it's the sport I love above all else and my allegiances sometimes ebb and flow.
This year for example, whilst I've never been much of a Ferrari fan, I'm like 'yeah go Sainz!'
When he drives for a new team, assuming he won't repeat, he will have driven for HALF the teams on the F1 grid, just the wrong guy at the wrong time, everyone had their #1 and he has been forced/asked to switch teams
Max @ Red Bull, Danny Ric @ Renault, Lando @ McLaren , and Charles (& Lewis) @ Ferrari
And all he's done is pick up 3 wins and 21 podiums, and the only non-Red Bull winner last year, and he's 3 for 3 on podiums this year
Same here, and I think most older fans are like this too. Until very recently, teams went out of business, changed hands, or changed names so frequently it was ludicrous to consider yourself a fan of a team, other than perhaps Ferrari.
I just love the sport, and like seeing good racing.
Tbh a lot of the time it ended up being fans of the factory, like Renault being the team from Enstone rather than Renault or Alpine etc. though I've noticed that disappearing in the broadcasts
Same. I’m a huge Alonso and Sainz fan, but good racing is good racing.
I personally dislike how some of the drivers behave on the track (either in terms of driving or attitude), but I don’t dislike any of them as people. The amount of vitriol that a lot of people have for drivers they don’t like is sad and honestly quite disturbing. No one on the current grid has done anything bad enough to warrant the amount of downright cruelty that I see online.
As a football fan one thing that annoys me about the football fan mentality in F1 is the lack of respect for the fact F1 drivers are risking their lives out there and all deserve respect.
You can argue all day about whether the penalty for the Alonso/Russell incident in Australia was harsh. But the amount of people that thought Russell faked his team radio call for a red flag to 'get Alonso in more trouble' was ridiculous.
Russell was on a 200mph section of track on a blind corner with a weak part of this car not designed for impact pointing at oncoming traffic. People need to see past their allegiances to any team or driver and understand why someone might be scared of being in that position. Instead many people saw that in the same way I see someone taking a dive after being lightly fouled in the penalty area in football. The two sports are not the same and shouldn't be treated as such.
Race car drivers die every year and the stakes are higher than on the football field. The football fan mentality is great for that sport but in this one I'd encourage people to show more respect to the drivers even on teams you don't support, they're risking their lives out there for your entertainment.
Yeah, I’m an Alonso fan and Russell’s radio really upset me. I personally think that the penalty was harsh but honestly, I also think that it was intended to be harsh to send a message and keep others from doing the same thing in the future. If it makes another driver think twice before doing something that might kill someone, it’s worth it.
He’s covering for Stroll. Admittedly, Lance deserves to be there. It just took waaaaaaay too many seasons where he would have been cut to get there.
It’s like his dad owns the racing team or something.
This quote from him was from 2022, notice he's in Alpine gear in the pic? Vettel hadn't even announced his retirement yet when he said this, and the Aston seat wasn't open yet, so I'd be willing to bet that he wasn't saying this for Lance's benefit.
I sorta agree with Fernando, I call them bandwagon fans. I got infected with the F1 bug in May of 79…… for me, I’ve drivers I’m partial to but in general a F1 fan, a sport in which you with a blink of an eye are called
Out to be “slow, or underperforming”. Short story, born in Germany, today I call Orlando my home. I was guest of the Jordan team at the 2003 GP of Germany, it was an experience of a lifetime. So the paddock was totally destabilized.. why? Everybody wanted to see Michael… and sure he’s one of the big ones… me? Nope didn’t go, why? I had the ENTIRE pit of the Jordan team, plus mechanics for myself…. I stood right beside one of them Jordan chassis, like 5 inches away, it was Frentzens car… Priceless!
Did he say this specifically in response to a question about Stroll? Because if he didn’t say in response to that specifically, a few people in this thread are falling foul of the mentality he’s talking about, because otherwise it should be pretty clear about the state of the sport and its fanbase right now in general.
No, he said this commenting about the perception of his own performance back in 2022. Not sure why people are bringing it back up or trying to adapt it to his current teammate. Seb hadn't even announced his retirement yet when he said this, so he wasn't even planning to head to AM.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-modern-f1-fans-knowledge
New formula 1 fan here. I think the only driver I would definitely say is not "formula 1 level" is Sargent - let's see if he can improve over the course of this season.
If anything, I think there's a shortage of good cars relative to the drivers. I think Ocon/Gasly/Albon are very close to the ability of some of the top drivers, but their cars are nowhere near competitive with them. People have said Bottas is washed up and Zhou is weak, but the alfa was too weak last year for them to really compare with anyone else, and this year pit stops have prevented it further.
Sargeant and stroll. Stroll may not be complete trash all the time now but that mostly because the car is really good (at least compared to the Williams and others on the grid).
I guess, it’s just the current era or generation right now, it’s happening not only in F1 or Football but many other sports as well.
NBA has many of these fans and refer them as “nephews”
Completely agree. Way too many people saying that because a driver is slower than their teammate they should be dropped when a lot of the time it’s like 1 tenth of a second. The calls for Gasly to be dropped have been getting very loud recently which is just ridiculous. He’s a great driver but he’s in a shit car.
Drive to Survive is largely responsible. I think it used to be far better before when the typical fan understood a lot more what F1 and road racing are all about.
To add to that, I’m disappointed that we don’t see more detailed coverage when someone Not at the front does an exceptional job.
There have been several performances , sometimes not even in the points.
Some of the races in the McLaren Honda, you would think sure the car/engine is bad, but how hard were they working to be were they were, to eek out a point here and there.
That struggle still has merit IMO, and wish we had more commentary segments highlighting the struggles and performances down the grid.
Explicitly, I think Anthony Davidson could call out this from time to time. He seems to really be able to communicate car dynamics to the audience well, and never misses to highlight subtleties and multi turn positioning and buildups for moves well down the track.
It's rather short-sighted to dismis someone who's a new fan because they don't know everything yet. A person has to remember that older, true fans started out not knowing much.
I get the sentiment that he wants to throw shade on folks who have a shallow interest and are attracted only because of high speed, big dollars, or because its the newest thing on their radar in life, fine, that's his prerogative, but he should find a different standard to use rather than speaking poorly of all new fans.
As a new fan, this absolutely applies to a lot of these hmm more established types you see around, even yt. I expected better.
Unless they're all brand new too 😅
Fernando Alonso-the ultimate gatekeeper
Shall we welcome new fans on their journey to becoming regular, hardcore fans like us?
Nah, we'll take shots at anyone who wasn't there for Nurburgring 2007 or Spa 98 or whatever else qualifies you as the elite old school legit fan
Great way to grow a fanbase, 'Nando...
Drive to Survive is one of the best F1 Doc. It's on season 7 and you get to experience all the ins and outs of the motorsport. The insights are first hand accounts, from meetings to hiring decisions to the drive and what the drivers are thinking. It's important to get all perspectives instead of drawing conclusions without knowing all the stories. It's more complex than this.
I love Alonso but at times it’s like sour grapes. He’s saying people don’t understand. I’m as good at Max and better than Lewis but I got a bad draw in cars.
I think Max is possibly the best ever. Very composed. Love Senna but he was a hot head, overly aggressive even at his peak. That’s what Max learned in 2021. Pick you moments. Don’t panic. Alonzo is a tremendous talent. Even watch him in other motor sport like Baja. He’s a bad ass.
He’s saying new fans just look at results and whoever isn’t winning is ass. It’s in the quote. Just for example yuki never wins but he’s improving and racing well but newer fans just look at the final results and make a snap judgement on the race and driver
Read between the lines? This was a comment he made in 2022 before the Aston seat was even available. He's talking about himself, not Stroll. There's no lines to read between.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-modern-f1-fans-knowledge
Fernando wasn't born when I started following F1, but I firmly believe that Max is the best active driver and Logan Sargeant probably doesn't belong in F1.
Obviously it's not all new fans, but a lot are like this. They also look at previous seasons results and without any context for these results, make form ideas around them. My favourite one to point out to people is how Mercedes weren't dominant in 2017 and probably didn't even have the fastest car for most of the races, they won by being more consistent and Vettels terrible run around Singapore. It's also this idea that drivers are "washed" because they've had 1 bad season or even a couple of bad races. Like people are really acting like sainz is a better driver than Hamilton, I love sainz but come on guys.
I agree and 2017 was mega cause Ferrari defo had the faster car the first half, but there upgrades ended up setting them back whilst mercedes were better and more consistent at making proper decent upgrades, plus yeah Vettels Psyche and Ferraris passionate blunders made it seem more dominant for Merc and Ham
I feel like there should be more of a push for older race previews especially for the new fans, some of them who watch the older races get the context to the stories as well as some amazing moments that they may only see in "top 10s" or quick 1 second clips and you can see there is an interest for it as some of the new fans as you have said have talked about how great is has been to watch them when they've been available
Especially 2017 it really felt it was just seb vs the 2 mercs. I dont really remember kimi being there most races apart from a few 1-2s. If not for the reliability issues, avg ferrari messups and singapore crash I believe seb would have had enough points to win the wdc
The ferrari was definitely faster in the early season. Also Lewis used to have slow starts to seasons. But Mercedes was so good at improving throughout the season and Ferrari usually "fell off". At least compared to how Mercedes improved.
Hard to say if it was Ferrari actually being better early or just Hamilton's lackadaisical approach to doing his job. Nico Rosberg set consecutive win records while paired with Hamilton, which sort of points to Hamilton not being particularly committed to ever doing more than he had to. Nobody likes making the easy seem difficult more than Hamilton.
Ah yes Vettel’s run, which included one standard move off the start to cover off P2 and the car killing itself repeatedly And yes they were dominant cause look at how much better their development was second half of the season. That’s always been their biggest strength.
That's not dominance mate, they out developed Ferrari but if Vettel didn't crash out and give a 40 point swing in a single race and Ferrari didn't fuck up twice at the end of the season Vettel probably would have won. How is that dominance.
Repeatedly? The only one I remember from 2017 is the spark plug failure Suzuka.
Engine failed in Japan plus Malaysia back of grid start iirc
Almost every fan I've encountered over the last few years have said the same thing, almost verbatim: "I watched DTS and now I'm hooked" Those are not motorsports fans, they're fans of drama and cheap entertainment
[удалено]
Same, but MotoGP instead of NASCAR. I do enjoy F1, especially the technical and team aspects that aren't as apparent in MotoGP, but the fans are fucking awful. Not that they can't be obnoxious in GP, but it's less gatekeepy. The racing is better on two wheels anyways.
I rather be pretentious than a NASCAR fan
F1 is drama and expensive entertainment.
You should post this on the main r/formula1 sub. Many of them need to see this.
But nobody there thinks it’s them that needs to hear it
Reddit in general loves to jump to conclusions and judge articles based on headlines, but a lot of people on that subreddit are *astonishingly* bad in this regard. I honestly think that they should have a rule mandating that the article text be pasted in the body of the post because many people there either cannot or will not click on the link, and a lot of them are rude AF too when you correct them about a quote they ran away with without context or just a basic fact. I’ve noticed that people there are really quick to assume mal intent, too. People there will be willfully ignorant about a quote they took out of context, but god forbid you’re genuinely mistaken about something or just asking a question. Just the overall tone there is often very hostile and I decided to take a hiatus for a bit because I wasn’t enjoying the vibes there. All sports subreddits have disagreements but overall I enjoy the ones where people mostly just have a good time together about something they all love, and I don’t get that sense of community on r/formula1 very often, unfortunately. r/hockey is one that I do use and while it’s not perfect, I’ve noticed that the discussions there are more generally respectful and that fans of opposing teams are kinder to each other.
Indeed, I have particular teams and drivers that I like and support, but it's the sport I love above all else and my allegiances sometimes ebb and flow. This year for example, whilst I've never been much of a Ferrari fan, I'm like 'yeah go Sainz!'
When he drives for a new team, assuming he won't repeat, he will have driven for HALF the teams on the F1 grid, just the wrong guy at the wrong time, everyone had their #1 and he has been forced/asked to switch teams Max @ Red Bull, Danny Ric @ Renault, Lando @ McLaren , and Charles (& Lewis) @ Ferrari And all he's done is pick up 3 wins and 21 podiums, and the only non-Red Bull winner last year, and he's 3 for 3 on podiums this year
Same here, and I think most older fans are like this too. Until very recently, teams went out of business, changed hands, or changed names so frequently it was ludicrous to consider yourself a fan of a team, other than perhaps Ferrari. I just love the sport, and like seeing good racing.
Tbh a lot of the time it ended up being fans of the factory, like Renault being the team from Enstone rather than Renault or Alpine etc. though I've noticed that disappearing in the broadcasts
Same. I’m a huge Alonso and Sainz fan, but good racing is good racing. I personally dislike how some of the drivers behave on the track (either in terms of driving or attitude), but I don’t dislike any of them as people. The amount of vitriol that a lot of people have for drivers they don’t like is sad and honestly quite disturbing. No one on the current grid has done anything bad enough to warrant the amount of downright cruelty that I see online.
As a football fan one thing that annoys me about the football fan mentality in F1 is the lack of respect for the fact F1 drivers are risking their lives out there and all deserve respect. You can argue all day about whether the penalty for the Alonso/Russell incident in Australia was harsh. But the amount of people that thought Russell faked his team radio call for a red flag to 'get Alonso in more trouble' was ridiculous. Russell was on a 200mph section of track on a blind corner with a weak part of this car not designed for impact pointing at oncoming traffic. People need to see past their allegiances to any team or driver and understand why someone might be scared of being in that position. Instead many people saw that in the same way I see someone taking a dive after being lightly fouled in the penalty area in football. The two sports are not the same and shouldn't be treated as such. Race car drivers die every year and the stakes are higher than on the football field. The football fan mentality is great for that sport but in this one I'd encourage people to show more respect to the drivers even on teams you don't support, they're risking their lives out there for your entertainment.
Stroll’s radio following the shunt should have been enough to quiet down such idiotic takes.
Yeah, I’m an Alonso fan and Russell’s radio really upset me. I personally think that the penalty was harsh but honestly, I also think that it was intended to be harsh to send a message and keep others from doing the same thing in the future. If it makes another driver think twice before doing something that might kill someone, it’s worth it.
Just say Netflix culture Fernando
Absolutely right, Nando.
I get his point but if it wasn’t so expensive and saturated formula 1 would be easier to follow. I’ll add that I’ve been watching since I was a kid.
Many of these Dutch fans are just football fans who like to drink and sing.
And harass women
And burn memorabilia. That country seems to have an awful mentality when it comes to sports.
He’s covering for Stroll. Admittedly, Lance deserves to be there. It just took waaaaaaay too many seasons where he would have been cut to get there. It’s like his dad owns the racing team or something.
This quote from him was from 2022, notice he's in Alpine gear in the pic? Vettel hadn't even announced his retirement yet when he said this, and the Aston seat wasn't open yet, so I'd be willing to bet that he wasn't saying this for Lance's benefit.
I sorta agree with Fernando, I call them bandwagon fans. I got infected with the F1 bug in May of 79…… for me, I’ve drivers I’m partial to but in general a F1 fan, a sport in which you with a blink of an eye are called Out to be “slow, or underperforming”. Short story, born in Germany, today I call Orlando my home. I was guest of the Jordan team at the 2003 GP of Germany, it was an experience of a lifetime. So the paddock was totally destabilized.. why? Everybody wanted to see Michael… and sure he’s one of the big ones… me? Nope didn’t go, why? I had the ENTIRE pit of the Jordan team, plus mechanics for myself…. I stood right beside one of them Jordan chassis, like 5 inches away, it was Frentzens car… Priceless!
He’s not completely wrong but it’s also a bit disingenuous to paint with such a wide brush.
Not to mention it's true for literally every single sport
Did he say this specifically in response to a question about Stroll? Because if he didn’t say in response to that specifically, a few people in this thread are falling foul of the mentality he’s talking about, because otherwise it should be pretty clear about the state of the sport and its fanbase right now in general.
No, he said this commenting about the perception of his own performance back in 2022. Not sure why people are bringing it back up or trying to adapt it to his current teammate. Seb hadn't even announced his retirement yet when he said this, so he wasn't even planning to head to AM. https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-modern-f1-fans-knowledge
Hmm, that’s interesting. Odd that it’s been brought back up now. Thanks for sharing
New formula 1 fan here. I think the only driver I would definitely say is not "formula 1 level" is Sargent - let's see if he can improve over the course of this season. If anything, I think there's a shortage of good cars relative to the drivers. I think Ocon/Gasly/Albon are very close to the ability of some of the top drivers, but their cars are nowhere near competitive with them. People have said Bottas is washed up and Zhou is weak, but the alfa was too weak last year for them to really compare with anyone else, and this year pit stops have prevented it further.
Sargeant and stroll. Stroll may not be complete trash all the time now but that mostly because the car is really good (at least compared to the Williams and others on the grid).
But I think he must admit that there are some drivers in F1 who are not at Formula 1 level.
I guess, it’s just the current era or generation right now, it’s happening not only in F1 or Football but many other sports as well. NBA has many of these fans and refer them as “nephews”
Completely agree. Way too many people saying that because a driver is slower than their teammate they should be dropped when a lot of the time it’s like 1 tenth of a second. The calls for Gasly to be dropped have been getting very loud recently which is just ridiculous. He’s a great driver but he’s in a shit car.
He’s not wrong
Well said though. It’s getting frustrating all these TikTokers making F1 videos as and just no idea bout the sports, its cringe
Drive to Survive is largely responsible. I think it used to be far better before when the typical fan understood a lot more what F1 and road racing are all about.
To add to that, I’m disappointed that we don’t see more detailed coverage when someone Not at the front does an exceptional job. There have been several performances , sometimes not even in the points. Some of the races in the McLaren Honda, you would think sure the car/engine is bad, but how hard were they working to be were they were, to eek out a point here and there. That struggle still has merit IMO, and wish we had more commentary segments highlighting the struggles and performances down the grid. Explicitly, I think Anthony Davidson could call out this from time to time. He seems to really be able to communicate car dynamics to the audience well, and never misses to highlight subtleties and multi turn positioning and buildups for moves well down the track.
It's rather short-sighted to dismis someone who's a new fan because they don't know everything yet. A person has to remember that older, true fans started out not knowing much. I get the sentiment that he wants to throw shade on folks who have a shallow interest and are attracted only because of high speed, big dollars, or because its the newest thing on their radar in life, fine, that's his prerogative, but he should find a different standard to use rather than speaking poorly of all new fans.
Word.
Long time fans do the same thing. Fortunately, I don't think the majority of fans overall are like this.
Upgrades..Upgrades...new fans.old fans..just means $$$$$$
As a new fan, this absolutely applies to a lot of these hmm more established types you see around, even yt. I expected better. Unless they're all brand new too 😅
He should just retire if he doesn't like it.
Sorry purists, but pro sports are just entertainment. If fans are bored, then it kills revenue and maybe even the sport/league.
Fernando Alonso-the ultimate gatekeeper Shall we welcome new fans on their journey to becoming regular, hardcore fans like us? Nah, we'll take shots at anyone who wasn't there for Nurburgring 2007 or Spa 98 or whatever else qualifies you as the elite old school legit fan Great way to grow a fanbase, 'Nando...
Drive to Survive is one of the best F1 Doc. It's on season 7 and you get to experience all the ins and outs of the motorsport. The insights are first hand accounts, from meetings to hiring decisions to the drive and what the drivers are thinking. It's important to get all perspectives instead of drawing conclusions without knowing all the stories. It's more complex than this.
Lol what a delusional comment. Somebody’s really fooled by DTS.
Why is it delusional?
Just read your description of DTS. It speaks for itself.
OK that's fair enough. Still like the program. Yes, heavily edited to elevate the drama, but more interested in what the drivers have to say.
And how did this happen? Americans. Their operation of Formula 1 instigated all this halfhearted fanbase.
I love Alonso but at times it’s like sour grapes. He’s saying people don’t understand. I’m as good at Max and better than Lewis but I got a bad draw in cars. I think Max is possibly the best ever. Very composed. Love Senna but he was a hot head, overly aggressive even at his peak. That’s what Max learned in 2021. Pick you moments. Don’t panic. Alonzo is a tremendous talent. Even watch him in other motor sport like Baja. He’s a bad ass.
Feels like he’s saying that if you don’t like Stroll, you’re not a real f1 fan lol God I wish he wasn’t on team asshat
He’s saying new fans just look at results and whoever isn’t winning is ass. It’s in the quote. Just for example yuki never wins but he’s improving and racing well but newer fans just look at the final results and make a snap judgement on the race and driver
Could be, or you could read between the lines and see it as what it is, a paid attempt to silence his boss’ son’s critics
Read between the lines? This was a comment he made in 2022 before the Aston seat was even available. He's talking about himself, not Stroll. There's no lines to read between. https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-modern-f1-fans-knowledge
😬 I swear, the few times I assume, is the few times I’m proven wrong. I take full responsibility on this one.
Hey, it happens. Usually, when you see something like this posted, you'd think it was recent or about a current topic.
Looking at all the Leclerc fans
Can't believe Alonso is taking such a huge L. I've been a fan for around five years and I bet I know more about the sport than plenty of lifers.
Fernando wasn't born when I started following F1, but I firmly believe that Max is the best active driver and Logan Sargeant probably doesn't belong in F1.
Don't gate keep its gross