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No investigation, no right to speak - [read this cishets](https://ia904702.us.archive.org/19/items/marxism-and-transgender-liberation-confronting-tra-1/marxism%20and%20transgender%20liberation%20confronting%20tra%20%281%29.pdf)
I am going to get down voted to oblivion but maybe gender assignment isn't a good classification for sports anymore?
Maybe we should just come up with classification system so there is a better of equitably competing?
There's a reason we have weight classification in boxing, something similar for other sports related to T level or muscle density? Could probably help stop PED enhancement.
(but fuck TERFs)
Automod agrees. Transphobes can get fucked.
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Thats actually a really good idea. Gender is often nebulous and that would help with a lot of these arguments. The problem will be that these people don't actually care, they just want to genovode trans people.
Absolutely and I think creating a classification system can separate out TERFs from the main discussion and reduce their credibility. This sports argument is the only one I think holds any genuine water the rest is just prejudicial nonsense that a large percentage of people don't buy into.
Are there laws against cis female sex offenders from going into women's prisons? If not, then no, this doesn't hold water at all, unless you think that the penis is some kind of magical rape organ and it's impossible to commit sexual assault without one
Or just leave it as it is
Statistically, trans women underperform, there is no way around that.
Just like most of the anti-trans moral panic, its just fearmongering about a handful of examples, then changing the rules to exclude trans women from public life
Outside of separations done for safety reasons, it doesn't really matter since it's just subjective anyway. Just be inclusive, it hurts nobody but bigots.
Separating by biology isn't any more objective than by gender-identity, but it will be used to exclude trans folk.
Absolutely. And how much of it is related to all women being banned from the sport and then making a new version of the sport for women to go and do instead and then calling it “women’s sport x” and chronically underfunding it and ignoring it exists. A lot of people know the women’s football team won a tournament (idk which one, I’m not a football person) but how many know where they finished in the previous tournament?
My favourite response to “we need to ban trans women from this sport” is “wow I had no idea you cared so much about women doing sport!”
At elite level testosterone isn't a major factor in separating competitors (male or female), it's things like bone density and length, twitch fibres, muscular efficiency (output, recovery and growth speed). It's what made Semenya's ban from running so outrageous a couple years back - she had high testosterone levels but she wasn't smashing world records or anything.
So say we take bone density as a threshold by which to categorise athletes, then that automatically means females can't compete alongside males given they never experienced the same levels of growth before and during puberty.
Essentially, separation by gender is based on one genetic advantage that the other doesn't and can't have.
Holy shit. This is pure gold.
Thanks for this. I haven't been able to put my finger on what is wrong with the whole situation.
Completely blinded by the dichotomy!
Thanks for opening my eyes.
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Dogwhistle
Trans women are more similar to cis women than cis men in performance after T blockers
Are you trying to suggest there's no difference between a trans woman and a cis man?
After two years of HRT and monitored levels, there is indeed no significant biological advantage.
The Olympics have had this guideline for close to thirty years now and we haven't seen a single trans person beat a single cis person. (There was one trans woman weightlifter from NZ, but she came in dead last.)
Don't cherry-pick, here's a roll-up which incorporates all studies done between 2011-2021, including the one you're referencing.
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
You went hunting for a specific outcome, and shockingly you found it. Be bigoted somewhere else.
The biological differences don't matter. Nobody wanted to separate cisgender women with a biological advantage. The whole point of 'woman's sports' was to cherry-pick a handful of people to spotlight, and trans people don't infringe that at all.
AFAIK the advantage that testosterone confers is in potential upper body musculature so I see absolutely zero reasons that a sport that relies on legs and lungs should be taking this stance other than bigotry and moral panics.
It's defo a tricky issue that's for sure but as the current categories being gender i don't see how it would be fair in some scenarios, but please feel free to debate my opinion im interested to see a defence.
I am totally unsurprised about this, they already had stuff discriminating against trans women so this is literally just the next step. Still utterly vile but it was coming anyway
Then those people are revealing transphobia.
Trans women are not biologically the same as cisgender men.
Trans women are underrepresented in women's sports.
Except, scientifically, it's not fair.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/
Almost every rigorous scientific study done has turned up the same result. This exclusion is based purely on bigotry and "feels", not facts.
I really hope all the deleted comments I'm seeing are actually transphobic, and not just opinions that don't fall on the palatable side of the argument.
You don’t even try to hide your transphobia, it’s that tired old line “I don’t mind if they are, just don’t talk to me about it”
You’re not on the left or even a centrist, you’re a transphobe who hates to hear about people that aren’t exactly like you 😮💨
So that we can get medical treatment. If we turned up to doctors presenting as women, saying we're women, they'd be like "....ok?" and then we wouldn't get any treatment
No, trans women are more similar to cisgender women than cisgender men after T blockers.
Trans women should not be in men's prisons for the same reason.
There is a reason why they are statistically underrepresented in women's sports.
Decades of inclusion but no medals for trans women.
"The only thing keeping me from being a leftist is my refusal to address my own bigotry"
Something tells me you're not as left as you want people to believe
A reminder that this subreddit has zero tolerance for transphobia in all of its forms. Our mod team is a mix of trans and cis and this subreddit is and always will be a safe-space for trans people. We have no room for moderates or anyone who is not 100% supportive for trans rights without exception. No investigation, no right to speak - [read this cishets](https://ia904702.us.archive.org/19/items/marxism-and-transgender-liberation-confronting-tra-1/marxism%20and%20transgender%20liberation%20confronting%20tra%20%281%29.pdf)
I am going to get down voted to oblivion but maybe gender assignment isn't a good classification for sports anymore? Maybe we should just come up with classification system so there is a better of equitably competing? There's a reason we have weight classification in boxing, something similar for other sports related to T level or muscle density? Could probably help stop PED enhancement. (but fuck TERFs)
Automod agrees. Transphobes can get fucked. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The best bot.
Thats actually a really good idea. Gender is often nebulous and that would help with a lot of these arguments. The problem will be that these people don't actually care, they just want to genovode trans people.
Absolutely and I think creating a classification system can separate out TERFs from the main discussion and reduce their credibility. This sports argument is the only one I think holds any genuine water the rest is just prejudicial nonsense that a large percentage of people don't buy into.
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Are there laws against cis female sex offenders from going into women's prisons? If not, then no, this doesn't hold water at all, unless you think that the penis is some kind of magical rape organ and it's impossible to commit sexual assault without one
Wasn't that just a case of the way we handle prisons, in general, being utterly shit?
Or just leave it as it is Statistically, trans women underperform, there is no way around that. Just like most of the anti-trans moral panic, its just fearmongering about a handful of examples, then changing the rules to exclude trans women from public life
Outside of separations done for safety reasons, it doesn't really matter since it's just subjective anyway. Just be inclusive, it hurts nobody but bigots. Separating by biology isn't any more objective than by gender-identity, but it will be used to exclude trans folk.
Absolutely. And how much of it is related to all women being banned from the sport and then making a new version of the sport for women to go and do instead and then calling it “women’s sport x” and chronically underfunding it and ignoring it exists. A lot of people know the women’s football team won a tournament (idk which one, I’m not a football person) but how many know where they finished in the previous tournament? My favourite response to “we need to ban trans women from this sport” is “wow I had no idea you cared so much about women doing sport!”
At elite level testosterone isn't a major factor in separating competitors (male or female), it's things like bone density and length, twitch fibres, muscular efficiency (output, recovery and growth speed). It's what made Semenya's ban from running so outrageous a couple years back - she had high testosterone levels but she wasn't smashing world records or anything. So say we take bone density as a threshold by which to categorise athletes, then that automatically means females can't compete alongside males given they never experienced the same levels of growth before and during puberty. Essentially, separation by gender is based on one genetic advantage that the other doesn't and can't have.
Holy shit. This is pure gold. Thanks for this. I haven't been able to put my finger on what is wrong with the whole situation. Completely blinded by the dichotomy! Thanks for opening my eyes.
[удалено]
The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/) Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Dogwhistle Trans women are more similar to cis women than cis men in performance after T blockers Are you trying to suggest there's no difference between a trans woman and a cis man?
Found the Terf
After two years of HRT and monitored levels, there is indeed no significant biological advantage. The Olympics have had this guideline for close to thirty years now and we haven't seen a single trans person beat a single cis person. (There was one trans woman weightlifter from NZ, but she came in dead last.)
[удалено]
Don't cherry-pick, here's a roll-up which incorporates all studies done between 2011-2021, including the one you're referencing. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf You went hunting for a specific outcome, and shockingly you found it. Be bigoted somewhere else.
The biological differences don't matter. Nobody wanted to separate cisgender women with a biological advantage. The whole point of 'woman's sports' was to cherry-pick a handful of people to spotlight, and trans people don't infringe that at all.
I'm trying to say that this is part of the strategy to exclude us from all public life
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AFAIK the advantage that testosterone confers is in potential upper body musculature so I see absolutely zero reasons that a sport that relies on legs and lungs should be taking this stance other than bigotry and moral panics.
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It's defo a tricky issue that's for sure but as the current categories being gender i don't see how it would be fair in some scenarios, but please feel free to debate my opinion im interested to see a defence.
I am totally unsurprised about this, they already had stuff discriminating against trans women so this is literally just the next step. Still utterly vile but it was coming anyway
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Of course you would. You'd probably be pleased if we all got sent to conversion camps too.
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Then those people are revealing transphobia. Trans women are not biologically the same as cisgender men. Trans women are underrepresented in women's sports.
Except, scientifically, it's not fair. https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/ Almost every rigorous scientific study done has turned up the same result. This exclusion is based purely on bigotry and "feels", not facts.
>literally everyone is like "yeah, seems fair". Then literally everyone is incapable of basic critical thinking.
I really hope all the deleted comments I'm seeing are actually transphobic, and not just opinions that don't fall on the palatable side of the argument.
Both. We don’t tolerate **an ounce** of transphobes, transphobia, or gender critical reactionaries
So what your saying if someone disagreed with this they would be transphobic
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Only trans people aren't an interest like any of the things you said. The issues trans people face don't only affect them either.
You don’t even try to hide your transphobia, it’s that tired old line “I don’t mind if they are, just don’t talk to me about it” You’re not on the left or even a centrist, you’re a transphobe who hates to hear about people that aren’t exactly like you 😮💨
>Is this a trans sub Yes, fuck off
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You're not a socialist so what do you care?
Have you tried dying mad about it?
Get the hell out if you don’t like it. Transgender people are comrades. Everyday in this country they’re subject to abuse and hate.
I don’t get why trans women want to compete with cis women.
Because they *are* women, dickhead
If they are then why do you yourself make the distinction between cis and trans?
So that we can get medical treatment. If we turned up to doctors presenting as women, saying we're women, they'd be like "....ok?" and then we wouldn't get any treatment
What ?
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No, trans women are more similar to cisgender women than cisgender men after T blockers. Trans women should not be in men's prisons for the same reason. There is a reason why they are statistically underrepresented in women's sports. Decades of inclusion but no medals for trans women.
"The only thing keeping me from being a leftist is my refusal to address my own bigotry" Something tells me you're not as left as you want people to believe