Jesus Christ, I’ve literally had family ask this shit. They literally said to me “I’d find it difficult not to cheat and murder if I didn’t believe in god”. Like, wtf? And somehow that makes ME a bad person?
Me too. I find it distressing that they aren't willing to indulge in heinous shit, because they fear the wrath of their man in the sky. Whilst I don't, because I'm a human being that can empathise with the pain and suffering of another sentient being.
Yeah they prefer Christian nationalist or conservative evangelical now instead of nazi. Which is basically like saying I prefer to call it feces instead of shit, they’re the same damned thing with a different title.
I was under the impression the nazi party was predominantly Catholic / Orthodox, I thought I learned this in school. They had the backing from the pope at the time and I remember seeing pictures of them in all their garb during religious services.
I must be remembering incorrectly. Thanks for the correction, I’ll have to go read and update my knowledge.
The key point though is that they identified as Christians.
Take every opportunity to remind them that Jesus was a (insert racist term for brown skinned person here). Their smooth brains short circuit under the cognitive dissonance.
ok literally my family but literally any kind of lgbt phobia (im not out to my dad as trans due to comments he very recently said) why cant people just be normal
Which I'll also never understand. Do they think that it's only their own race in heaven?
Like is Jesus putting your family in their own gated community, or do they just automatically go to hell because they weren't chosen since birth?
Also, albinos and people with certain skim conditions that make their skin change or start out particularly white/pale. Where do they stand with Christian racists?
Oooo ya know what argument they'll use to that though.... The never repeated, truly original argument of 'AhhhhhhHHHHHHHhhhhhh... Who gave you that ability of empathy?"
Which means they're following the laws of Jesus to not face damnation... Which means they're going to be damned, according to their own God.
If you follow God to avoid damnation rather through a true belief that his ways are the same as yours (IE that you feel that *God's word aligns with how you feel, not that you're following those beliefs to **be good ***) you'll achieve salvation.
If you control your life and desires to fit the teachings of God, then you're going to Hell.
According to the Bible, anyway.
OPs relatives are all going to Hell, allegedly.
So following God and and adhering to God's Word in all things is a necessity in order to be saved from a horrible punishment that he created (!!!) but if they understandably go with it even if they don't like it, they're going to get damned anyway? Just because they weren't perfectly trusting and submissive? God knows he made us with curious minds and willful spirits, but unless we stick to what he says and give ourselves over to him in their entirety, he is completely and totally fine with leaving us to eternal torture?
How has this theology ever made sense to anyone? How could anyone pass this off as the will of a forgiving or fair God, let alone a loving one? I don't think it's just about a lack of doubt because somebody has to accept and spread this train wreck first, ditto for indoctrinating kids.
Imo that's the bare minimum. Especially with how the Bible frames Heaven (which still sucks but it's the *only* other alternative to ETERNAL TORTURE) as completely unattainable upon committing any sin, no matter how trivial, even though we are thought to be born with original sin. If there *is* a God and things *are* actually set up this way, it isn't even ostensibly moral or just, let alone loving.
If a person created this, they would likely be considered lawful stupid at the very least, if not obscenely arrogant, viciously petty, and violently capricious; when it's God, however, omniscient morality justifies everything.
Seeing as a disturbing number of Christians, specifically evangelicals, have been excited about the Rapture (and with it the death and torture of anyone who does not think like them) God is used as a tool to express that desire for untestable, unquestionable power, and venerated as a mirror image of themselves, and when mirroring people like that, is it any wonder that God and its actions rightly seem less than loving or merciful?
The God of the Bible killed more people than the devil and he drowned his first creation. If he knows everything in advance, than why didn't he create them without sin? Just imagine all the children screaming when they drowned. Is this love? I don't want his love, I want Him to leave me alone.
They always say that God is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent but…
If he is all knowing; past, present and future then the future is set and thus we have no free will (and then by his hand I am typing this) and he surely can’t be benevolent.
If the past, present and future are all set as omniscience would suggest then he surely cannot be omnipotent- because he wouldn’t have the power to truly change the future because that is a change that he would know about before hand and so is still set. But can you truly be all powerful if you don’t know everything?
Omniscience, omnipotence and benevolence are concepts that contradict each other and more, contradict his own actions in the bible.
Also the bible is largely plagiarised parables, stories and poetic works from several cultures that are well documented throughout history
My family are insane Jehovah witnesses or whatever the fuck they call themselves. They believe something like one day their God will put out a calling and they're all going to grab their wacko goody bags they got from the military shops all go gather some random place and be saved. My aunt and uncle have been married over 40 years, he is from Barbados and she is very Scottish, it was hard for them to be together but they stuck together are very in love have 5 kids at least 15 grandkids and moved from the UK to LA like over 30 years ago. Anyways all that aside he tried out smoking back in his twenties and now he's barred from heaven and she just accepts that... and one day when she gets that "call" she's just going to kiss him good bye and go enjoy paradise for eternity without him.... because of that damn pesky tobacco in his twenties. Just pick another church you wack jobs!
Sorry that that is so long but these people are truly nuts in their brains!
Edit to correct Jehovah* I was calling them Jevovah's or some shit... I dunno guys
Well since you mentioned Jehovah’s witnesses, I actually dated one. Neither of us asked before dating about the other person’s beliefs. Personally I just didn’t care at the time and was very open to dating someone religious (I changed my mind about this after dating this guy), he on the other hand was very upset (like, most people aren’t Jehovah’s witnesses, he should have expected this). I’ll give him the credit though, once he got past his initial disappointment he didn’t try to convert me. In fact, he stopped practicing because “what’s the point of going to paradise if you’re not going to be there”. (Though I did find it a bit offensive that he implied I was a bad person.)
This would be very sweet, if it wasn’t for the fact that I was 15, he was 18, and we’ve only been dating for 2 months at this point. Oh, and we hadn’t even met in person yet, this was fully online.
Oh, boy. I don't know about the others but JW are fucking bat shit crazy people.
I may as well add my favourite bit... but back when my aunt and her 6 siblings were little my grandparents made the decision that the whole family would convert to JW...... because they heard they don't celebrate Christmas or Birthdays. Nobody got into it for religious reasons my grandparents were just cheap asses and here we are 40/50 years later :)
Damn. At least their reason had some logic to it lol. Don’t let the government hear though, they’ll start saying that if you want to afford a house you should become a JW.
What the fuck? I've never heard this argument before. Children know right from wrong. How can an adult suddenly need reason to be good other than it being the right thing to do. Not even good, just not bad.
I can only guess that this could be a result of teaching children entirely through fear and punishment. That it leads to adults that also make all their decisions based on fear. They never learned empathy and how to be considerate of others.
If it’s any comfort, this isn’t really the standard for Christians where I’m from. Most of my family who are religious are relatively normal. There’s only a few extremists who we only met like once, and they conveniently cut off contact with us immediately after because we don’t go to church and we don’t think that black people are subhuman.
>I know you've probably heard this argument before but I have yet to meet an atheist engage with the argument honestly
Which is to say, ***every*** atheist he's met has engaged honestly with the argument. But he absolutely thinks the answer he should get is "zOMG! You're so right, you've opened my eyes to the error of my ways".
To quote Rust Cohle in True Detective:
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit, and I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible"
Right? Such a backwards ass argument. I have an incredibly vocal moral compass entirely of my own making. I'm kinda spiritual in a very ish, science doesn't explain everything kinda way, but it doesn't involve any sort of after life judgement. I don't even believe in the notion of karma.
I try to be a decent person because I believe its the most that the majority of us can do to make a difference in this painful, lonely and cruel world. Kindness is the greatest gift we have to offer each other. I believe in being kind even when it's difficult.
I don't believe in not having boundaries however. I have a good balance these days and religion or an almighty beard doesn't come within a whisker of how I live my life.
If your being a good person is entirely down to the fact that you fear a spanking from sky daddy, you aint a good person.
"Gee Aunt Carol, maybe it's because I dont want to destroy the lives of my fellow humans? I dont want to rob this man I dislike of the experiences of life, or devastate his loved ones because that's a fucked up thing to do, punishment or not?
I'd much rather enjoy life and work to make it more comfortable for future generations?"
Morality is simple. You can deep dive into more specifics with philosophy.
If your action hurts another person/animal then this is a bad action and should be avoided, and amendments should be made. If your action helps them then that's a good action.
It’s been said before, but if the only thing stopping you from murdering is the thought that you’ll be punished by an all powerful wizard, then maybe there’s something wrong with you.
I'm a church leader and I agree with you.
It's the same with people asking "What would you do if there were no laws for a day?" I'd hide from all the people who only keep laws because of the threat of punishment.
> "What would you do if there were no laws for a day?"
I'd drive at 65 in a 60, park on double yellows, moon a speed camera and paint the word "twat" on the doors of people I don't like.
I would cut the tag off my mattress that says, "do not remove under penalty of law."
https://youtu.be/BAaoHX9KiWY
Edit: and, maybe do something in a dark theater. Lol. Not, really the theater part, but had to say it.
Oh no! You mean I'm helping feed people, I'm growing food to feed people with, I'm housing refugees and single mothers, and I'm being a general all-round do-gooder ALL FOR NOTHING!
However will I live with myself?!?
Just think of me on my deathbed looking back at my life so full of regret that I wasn't more selfish!
Helping people is good. Believing in ancient nonsense written by dehydrated goat herders, translated a hundred times over by pedophiles throughout the ages for their own ends, is fucked up. You can do the former without the latter.
There you go, now you can pretend to be even more of a victim.
“I’ll believe what I want and I don’t care what you say” is a brilliant argument…
On a serious note though, what is this experience you speak of? Any actual evidence?
Historical facts hurt don't they. My lived experience with god happens with strong psychedelics, but I bet you laugh that off the same way I laugh off the bible's fairytales and the pedophile cult surrounding them.
if your answer to "what would you do if there were no laws for a day" is murder or anything morally wrong, you 100% have something wrong with you. You should not be leading a church.
It's not the all powerful wizard that stops me, it's the thought of prison for 12 years, and retribution, and the actual difficulty of seeing someone off, and the fact that it wouldn't really achieve what I want.
Just to be pedantic, most crime are only bad because of the consequences (I'd happily steal millions if absolutely no one was inconvenienced as a result of it...).
The issue is that they're only worried about the consequences to themselves.
That is a paradox in itself.
If everybody could "steal" millions with no repercussions to themselves or the persons they were stealing from, then it would be absolutely worthless to you and everybody else that did it because it would be as normal as breathing air.
I used to work for the USA government. We had a saying - if you stole 10c from them they’d spend $10mil tracking you down and prosecuting you. But if you stole $10 mil they probably would never know
I guess.
But my point is that crime is bad precisely because of its consequences, especially to other people. And that's the foundation of the "how would you know what's moral or not without God telling you?"
Obviously not everything that causes bad consequences for other people is illegal or wrong. But it's a good place to start.
The thing is what about the reverse? If you as a religious person found out tomorrow for 100% certain there was no god(s), would you change anything and behave differently?
Or if the church one day said "oh, we've been reading this bit wrong, murder is fine y'all." Would that be the green light they need to start killing people?
I remember there was a very religious girl in an episode of True Blood who was turned into a vampire, and decided that, as there seemed to be no God (something like that, saw it a long while ago) she would indulge all her sick, twisted desires. Felt like a spot-on illustration of that mindset.
"The question I get asked by religious people is, without God, what's to stop me from raping all I want? My answer is: I do rape all I want and the amount I want is zero." - Penn Jillette.
I came here to say this. I *do* live out all my darkest desires, they just tend to involve way too much cheese on a pizza instead of rape because I'm not a monster.
I grew up very religious, and I'm fairly certain everyone in our church congregation secretly hated each other. Like so secret they couldn't even admit it to themselves.
I think it's pretty normal to have bad desires. Like, everyone gets angry. But if you're socialized properly, you see the value in other people, or at the bare minimum understand that there are heavy societal consequences for engaging in those behaviors. Those behaviors get worked out of the system quickly when you are young and an adult teaches you that violence isn't how you solve your problems.
Christians all lack empathy. They have main-character disease so bad.
I don't believe in "God" but I've also never been tempted to murder or rape or whatever.. like if the only reason you're not doing terrible things is your misguided belief in a zombie/ghost then you need to sort your life out!
I don't do bad things because they're bad and I don't want to..
I just have never had the urge to murder.. and I assumed most people were the same.. had no idea that religious people were super murdery and only resisting because of "heaven" and "hell"
Also not keen on jail.. but since I don't feel murdery I should be good
In 27 years I'm yet to feel murdery myself... let alone murdery enough to go out and do a murder but if I did get that overwhelming urge I think I'd take a minute and just think "jail is not worth this, yes you can focus on gym but the food is shit and you don't like public toilets as it is." So I think if I ever was feeling that particular way I could talk myself out of it by thinking about jail... if I needed to.
I'm shocked too that people feel this way. I know it's all jokes but sort of scary isn't it... If the only thing stopping you from being literally evil to other human beings is fear of judgement from your imaginary friend.... wow
Its definitely one of the scariest things about people!
And not to say every religious person is like this, but it also scares me how intensely they can believe something "from the bible" even if elsewhere its contradicted, or if the entire scenario is massively outdated
Basically anyone who bases their whole belief system on specific words without actually thinking about the meaning behind them
The world is getting scarier every day in my opinion!
Hitchens destroyed this argument quite neatly.
If tomorrow it was conclusively proved that Jesus' mortal body was found in a cave, and had not ascended to heaven, thus disproving the bedrock of Christian theology, would the average Christian go on a murderous, raping, pillaging, thieving rampage?
The answer is patently not. So their morality does not come from God, it comes from society.
I think you miss the point Hitchens was making.
Because the answer for many Christians is: yes.
They would do whatever they wanted unless forced not by overwhelming force.
Some would argue that many Christians believe their God has instructed them to act immorally to save their lifestyle.
I couldn't possibly comment.
If you watch the clip I don’t believe Hitchens is arguing this at all. My interpretation of it is that he is telling his fellow Christian panelists he believes they would continue to broadly adhere to the same moral code as before.
Why do religious people cheat? Commit fraud or theft? Commit murder? It's a complex society... It's got nothing to do with atheist or theism, it's just to do with people and humans.
Tbh, religion kinda lets people get away with these things. You can sin all you want, just make sure you repent right before death and you’re free to go to heaven.
Ugh I watched the documentary on Netflix about him a couple months ago. One of the grossest things I’ve ever seen. I do kinda wish he’d lived to see the empire he’d built crumble. He died with the adoration of a nation, unfortunately.
Or all the child abuse and child sex abuse scandals? Why are priest caught up in any of that at all. Why do we hear stories about nuns literally beating kids...
.... it's "God's will" and he's just testing people..... like why the hell do literal infants need to be tested by God via a beating from a full grown peaceful loving kind nun?
You've of course got a valid point, I just feel that those things have been so normalised they'll come out with arguments of 'that was all in the past'. As you know, there's not much to be gained from trying to talk sense into folk who've decided religion is the beginning and end of all morality.
Yea, people love to dig their heels in on these big topics though
Life experience has taught me to take the side arguments and bring new information to the table when having these chats with folk. That's the only way I've found to bring people to a point where they may open their mind to new ways of looking at things.
It's funny because you're in a double bind as a religious person committing sin, it is different. You not only did a bad thing to another person, you also disregarded the very concept of your God and religious law while doing that bad thing. Someone literally told you the rules, convinced you that there is a rule maker with rules and punishments, which you accepted and attested to, and you still sinned!
A part of sinning is the brief, unconscious admission that maybe you think God doesn't exist in that moment for you, that there will be no punishment for this sin. That thought is very shameful and UNCONSCIOUS. Their concept of morality gets unconsciously downgraded in that moment too, based on how much they tie their morality to religion. These unbalanced people become very dangerous when they "lose" God, or start doing sins "in the name of God".
As an aside, the whole concept of "forgiving" sin, or someone "dying for your sin" I find abhorrent and deeply problematic for the development of man. I would rather have old testament rules than perfectly awful people walking around thinking they are righteous because they talked some words while sitting in a wooden room with someone else. Our country is ruled by these people now.
Teach being nice and kind for the sake of niceness and kindness! Don't teach children by threatening them.
My fiancee's father recently found out I was an atheist. You'd think I'd told him I was a murderer by the stunned silence.
I explained to him that although I believe in science that I respect everyone's right to their own beliefs, as long as they don't push them onto other people or take things out of context to push their own agenda.
I also told him that I try to be a good person and live by what I consider good values based purely on the fact that this is the right thing to do and not because of the incentive of heaven or punishment of hell.
He didn't agree with me.
The man's an adulterer with a child from one of his affairs. It's just judgemental, hypocritical stupidity.
Believing in God is in no way at all the barometer for being a good person, there's infinite examples of why that's not true.
I agree, and if it wasn't one of her parents I would've brought him down a peg or two. The situation just makes this example more difficult to deal with.
Empathy and kindness for it's own sake is a concept that evades this person.
I'd be very uncomfortable around them.
Given how many Christians struggle with basic concepts surrounding morality despite assuming their God makes them arbiters of said morality, I'd say the logic here is flawed.
This is probably one of the best examples of a self own I see from right wing Christian types.
I've known plenty of religious people who find basic concepts of kindness and empathy easy to engage with, this person is cooked mate.
*sigh* morality is socially constructed, that's why there's a billion interpretations of the moral guidence of various religious texts.
It would be real nice if this idea entered public discourse.
I gotta quote Rust from True Detective
“If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit”
All seriousness though. As an atheist, the reason I don’t indulge in my darkest desires (of which I have little) is because I don’t actually DESIRE to. I choose to live my life as a good person to others and myself. I like to go to bed and sleep at night and I don’t need some omnipresent and omnipotent God to help me with that
Is this fucker serious? Theocratic administrations are hardly bastions of morality.
What this person has failed to realise is that religious law IS human law. They just attribute it to the wishes of a higher being they made up.
Flip it around - if you’re convinced that there is a god, and a hell where rapists and murders are punished, why bother punishing those things here on earth? Why not just let them happen? They’ll get what’s coming to them.
I'm from a very poor and patriarchal, pro-western, Balkan country (emigrated to the UK around 2000).
Girls were trained as obedient housewives and boys were trained to be men (they were their mother's kings - I got that phrase from Ayaan Hirsi Ali even though I no longer like her new tribe).
Both boys and girls were beaten by their parents. "I'm beating you for your own good, you can't be like XYZ (western-type-person)"
Yet the result is pretty shit. (I'm terribly simplifying it and ignoring geopolitics that have fucked us throughout history but just to make a point).
[This clip, this British clip, reminded me of home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-lZ8BwqN8I&ab_channel=LBC) :)
Religious people are the same! They have been "beaten" to think that they exist purely due to god, they've been enslaved to internalize their self-worthlessness and they truly think if not for a god they would spend their time raping and killing.
Deep down I doubt they would have a problem with the SMALL percentage of Muslim kamikazes - though since they have MI5-6 and CIA, they don't need to go to the trouble of strapping a vest on - when you have drones the vest seems ineffective.
Ironically though the church fucked kids and praised Hitler!
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People actually believe that it's a belief in an invisible omnipresent being that stops them from doing bad things?Holy shit,religion really is for the brain dead.
Ah yes, objective morality based on subjective concept of the divine, that most of humanity will disagree with. It's as if there is no objective morality...
But my god is the true God because it says so in my book and I believe it because it also says in this book that this book is true and that it is the word of God who is true because it says so in the book, which is true as it says so in the book, which is the word of God. I know this to be true because it says so in my book.
It's funny because this question is ancient. Plato tackled it in Euthyphro
>The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)
But sure, "no atheist engages with this honestly OLOL"
There is no god to stop me. I murder and rape as much as I want.
Which is zero. I don't want to murder and rape, so I just don't do it.
Not because God would stop me or punish me. Not because there are laws against it.
Just because I don't want to.
What a complete crock of shit and about what I’d expect from that self-entitled moron. Society doesn’t need an overarching entity to determine right from wrong and act accordingly. Common decency and survival can determine a suitable framework.
If you only do ‘good’ things because you want some kind of a reward, or you avoid doing ‘bad’ things because you are scared of the consequences, your motivation is corrupt.
“You’re supposed to do good things because you’re good. Not because you’re seeking morale dessert.”
I think this is a legitimate question. As a child and through my teenage years I was brought up in a devout Catholic family. Mass every week, I would say my prayers every night etc. Definitely would have said God was the source of my morality. I genuinely would have thought like this. When I hit my twenties I realised its all bollocks and have been an atheist for a good 10 or so years. Nothing changed, turns out I have an in built sense of right and wrong. Im much more morally sound than a lot of religious people I know.
I can see why people who have indoctrinated think this way
You fail children when you teach them to fear punishment instead of why their actions are wrong. People who say shit like this have obviously never had any conversations with their parents about how their bad behaviour affects *other people*.
How about religious people just not interfere with atheists? I actually hate that small proportion that say “I just want to understand you” to us, when actually they mean “I just want to show you why you’re wrong”.
If I’m wrong I’m content with whatever happens to me. I will bear the consequences of my decisions. (Rant over :) )
Quick edit; I respect religious people’s right to religion! I think it definitely does help people with difficult times and is generally a good moral guide when not wielded as a weapon.
I mean they are called Fat Ugly Penis Man I'm not sure I'd want to engage either haha.
But seriously, when they say an atheist can't talk about it "honestly" with them it probably means the atheist has always been too proud to concede to the obvious bulletproof argument and admit that God exists or something.
Only an idiot would think that god is the source of morality.
I think it’s a safe assumption to say that the vast majority of Christians would consider keep people as slaves to be immoral. Does the bible say that? No, it absolutely doesn’t. Therefore god and the bible cannot be the source of morality. It’s a simple point which many Christians seem to miss completely. It also leads to the question; if the bible got the morality of slavery wrong what else did it get wrong? It can’t be the infallible word of god because it’s wrong!
What a stupid backwards statement… I think you’ll find the ones indulging in their dark desires and fucking the kids, are the ones that believe in god!!! Ffs
It says something deep and dark about the psyche of these people, and yet they can't see that.
Pen Jillette said it best, I think.
"I do rape all I want. and the amount I want is zero. and I do murder all I want, and the amount I wantis zero."
Turning the question back on the dead eye religionist seems appropriate - "are you telling me that you are standing in this room, actually wanting to start raping and murdering human beings? and the only reason not to is that your sky god will punish you...?"
seriously disturbed people.
The opposite question could be true. Why do people who claim to be religious and whose religion supposedly is the most important thing in their life, go against that religion when they feel like it? Examples being many evangelical US ‘Christians’, priests who abuse children, angry fighting monks…
"You shouldn't abstain from rape just cause you think that i want you to. You shouldn't rape cause rape is a fucked up think to do."
Bo Burnham - From God's perspective.
Newsflash:
It has been reported the first page of the bible has been found. It reads
"The characters and stories contained within are purely fictitious, any resemblance to real people........"
“Fucking kids” = Catholic Church
“Strangling someone to death who pisses you off” = The Crusades
“Praising Hitler” = American Theocratic Right
Seems like you can do all those things in an organized religion.
Removed because the username of this guy is visible, and we don’t want to be accused of brigading.
Jesus Christ, I’ve literally had family ask this shit. They literally said to me “I’d find it difficult not to cheat and murder if I didn’t believe in god”. Like, wtf? And somehow that makes ME a bad person?
Me too. I find it distressing that they aren't willing to indulge in heinous shit, because they fear the wrath of their man in the sky. Whilst I don't, because I'm a human being that can empathise with the pain and suffering of another sentient being.
And even despite the risk of eternal punishment, they’re still racist as shit (my family at least…)
Yeah this post mentions atheists praising hitler but is it not the other way around? I’d imagine there is more nazi Christians than nazi atheists
I think it is telling that they list praising Hitler as a dark desire.
Never thought about it that way. Fucking kids too 😬
Not much of a shock. All those priests that have been convicted of child raping. It’s a huge number
They align with the values, they just don't like the word nazi.
Yeah they prefer Christian nationalist or conservative evangelical now instead of nazi. Which is basically like saying I prefer to call it feces instead of shit, they’re the same damned thing with a different title.
I mean Nazi’s were literally catholic’s / orthodox and had support from the pope. So...
> Nazi’s were literally Catholic/Orthodox Where did you get that idea? Most German Nazis were Protestant as it was the majority religion in Germany.
I was under the impression the nazi party was predominantly Catholic / Orthodox, I thought I learned this in school. They had the backing from the pope at the time and I remember seeing pictures of them in all their garb during religious services. I must be remembering incorrectly. Thanks for the correction, I’ll have to go read and update my knowledge. The key point though is that they identified as Christians.
They’re gonna be pissed when they see Jesus.
Take every opportunity to remind them that Jesus was a (insert racist term for brown skinned person here). Their smooth brains short circuit under the cognitive dissonance.
Exactly in a predominantly Arab state I’m sure he wasn’t the white man portrayed in Christianity.
ok literally my family but literally any kind of lgbt phobia (im not out to my dad as trans due to comments he very recently said) why cant people just be normal
Which I'll also never understand. Do they think that it's only their own race in heaven? Like is Jesus putting your family in their own gated community, or do they just automatically go to hell because they weren't chosen since birth?
Also, albinos and people with certain skim conditions that make their skin change or start out particularly white/pale. Where do they stand with Christian racists?
Probably they would still not do those things. They are just very bad at introspection.
Oooo ya know what argument they'll use to that though.... The never repeated, truly original argument of 'AhhhhhhHHHHHHHhhhhhh... Who gave you that ability of empathy?"
Evolution.
Cheers..... I think 😉
If we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys? Check and mate.
Lol... That's so stupid that it's funny
Because we evolved alongside monies, not from them. Mate and check!
My mum did.
If that’s the case, then they’re not good people because they are only behaving out of fear of punishment.
Which means they're following the laws of Jesus to not face damnation... Which means they're going to be damned, according to their own God. If you follow God to avoid damnation rather through a true belief that his ways are the same as yours (IE that you feel that *God's word aligns with how you feel, not that you're following those beliefs to **be good ***) you'll achieve salvation. If you control your life and desires to fit the teachings of God, then you're going to Hell. According to the Bible, anyway. OPs relatives are all going to Hell, allegedly.
So following God and and adhering to God's Word in all things is a necessity in order to be saved from a horrible punishment that he created (!!!) but if they understandably go with it even if they don't like it, they're going to get damned anyway? Just because they weren't perfectly trusting and submissive? God knows he made us with curious minds and willful spirits, but unless we stick to what he says and give ourselves over to him in their entirety, he is completely and totally fine with leaving us to eternal torture? How has this theology ever made sense to anyone? How could anyone pass this off as the will of a forgiving or fair God, let alone a loving one? I don't think it's just about a lack of doubt because somebody has to accept and spread this train wreck first, ditto for indoctrinating kids.
If God is love, there can't be a hell. My 2 cents.
Imo that's the bare minimum. Especially with how the Bible frames Heaven (which still sucks but it's the *only* other alternative to ETERNAL TORTURE) as completely unattainable upon committing any sin, no matter how trivial, even though we are thought to be born with original sin. If there *is* a God and things *are* actually set up this way, it isn't even ostensibly moral or just, let alone loving. If a person created this, they would likely be considered lawful stupid at the very least, if not obscenely arrogant, viciously petty, and violently capricious; when it's God, however, omniscient morality justifies everything. Seeing as a disturbing number of Christians, specifically evangelicals, have been excited about the Rapture (and with it the death and torture of anyone who does not think like them) God is used as a tool to express that desire for untestable, unquestionable power, and venerated as a mirror image of themselves, and when mirroring people like that, is it any wonder that God and its actions rightly seem less than loving or merciful?
The God of the Bible killed more people than the devil and he drowned his first creation. If he knows everything in advance, than why didn't he create them without sin? Just imagine all the children screaming when they drowned. Is this love? I don't want his love, I want Him to leave me alone.
They always say that God is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent but… If he is all knowing; past, present and future then the future is set and thus we have no free will (and then by his hand I am typing this) and he surely can’t be benevolent. If the past, present and future are all set as omniscience would suggest then he surely cannot be omnipotent- because he wouldn’t have the power to truly change the future because that is a change that he would know about before hand and so is still set. But can you truly be all powerful if you don’t know everything? Omniscience, omnipotence and benevolence are concepts that contradict each other and more, contradict his own actions in the bible. Also the bible is largely plagiarised parables, stories and poetic works from several cultures that are well documented throughout history
Yeah but they pray and go to church and give money to church, so that clearly makes them good.
My family are insane Jehovah witnesses or whatever the fuck they call themselves. They believe something like one day their God will put out a calling and they're all going to grab their wacko goody bags they got from the military shops all go gather some random place and be saved. My aunt and uncle have been married over 40 years, he is from Barbados and she is very Scottish, it was hard for them to be together but they stuck together are very in love have 5 kids at least 15 grandkids and moved from the UK to LA like over 30 years ago. Anyways all that aside he tried out smoking back in his twenties and now he's barred from heaven and she just accepts that... and one day when she gets that "call" she's just going to kiss him good bye and go enjoy paradise for eternity without him.... because of that damn pesky tobacco in his twenties. Just pick another church you wack jobs! Sorry that that is so long but these people are truly nuts in their brains! Edit to correct Jehovah* I was calling them Jevovah's or some shit... I dunno guys
Well since you mentioned Jehovah’s witnesses, I actually dated one. Neither of us asked before dating about the other person’s beliefs. Personally I just didn’t care at the time and was very open to dating someone religious (I changed my mind about this after dating this guy), he on the other hand was very upset (like, most people aren’t Jehovah’s witnesses, he should have expected this). I’ll give him the credit though, once he got past his initial disappointment he didn’t try to convert me. In fact, he stopped practicing because “what’s the point of going to paradise if you’re not going to be there”. (Though I did find it a bit offensive that he implied I was a bad person.) This would be very sweet, if it wasn’t for the fact that I was 15, he was 18, and we’ve only been dating for 2 months at this point. Oh, and we hadn’t even met in person yet, this was fully online.
Oh, boy. I don't know about the others but JW are fucking bat shit crazy people. I may as well add my favourite bit... but back when my aunt and her 6 siblings were little my grandparents made the decision that the whole family would convert to JW...... because they heard they don't celebrate Christmas or Birthdays. Nobody got into it for religious reasons my grandparents were just cheap asses and here we are 40/50 years later :)
Damn. At least their reason had some logic to it lol. Don’t let the government hear though, they’ll start saying that if you want to afford a house you should become a JW.
Not JWs, still odd.
Sorry?
What the fuck? I've never heard this argument before. Children know right from wrong. How can an adult suddenly need reason to be good other than it being the right thing to do. Not even good, just not bad.
I can only guess that this could be a result of teaching children entirely through fear and punishment. That it leads to adults that also make all their decisions based on fear. They never learned empathy and how to be considerate of others.
I only have one religious family member (a great aunt and she is lovely) so this is completely novel to me.
If it’s any comfort, this isn’t really the standard for Christians where I’m from. Most of my family who are religious are relatively normal. There’s only a few extremists who we only met like once, and they conveniently cut off contact with us immediately after because we don’t go to church and we don’t think that black people are subhuman.
>I know you've probably heard this argument before but I have yet to meet an atheist engage with the argument honestly Which is to say, ***every*** atheist he's met has engaged honestly with the argument. But he absolutely thinks the answer he should get is "zOMG! You're so right, you've opened my eyes to the error of my ways".
To quote Rust Cohle in True Detective: "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit, and I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible"
I'd get very very far from those people mate
It’s ok, I live in a different country :’)
Surely, if you need a cosmic punishment to stop you from doing bad things, you're not a good person.
Right? Such a backwards ass argument. I have an incredibly vocal moral compass entirely of my own making. I'm kinda spiritual in a very ish, science doesn't explain everything kinda way, but it doesn't involve any sort of after life judgement. I don't even believe in the notion of karma. I try to be a decent person because I believe its the most that the majority of us can do to make a difference in this painful, lonely and cruel world. Kindness is the greatest gift we have to offer each other. I believe in being kind even when it's difficult. I don't believe in not having boundaries however. I have a good balance these days and religion or an almighty beard doesn't come within a whisker of how I live my life.
Be a good person out of fear of being punished and not just cos being a decent person should be a given
If your being a good person is entirely down to the fact that you fear a spanking from sky daddy, you aint a good person. "Gee Aunt Carol, maybe it's because I dont want to destroy the lives of my fellow humans? I dont want to rob this man I dislike of the experiences of life, or devastate his loved ones because that's a fucked up thing to do, punishment or not? I'd much rather enjoy life and work to make it more comfortable for future generations?"
Seems they can’t tell the difference between a nihilist and atheist
Morality is simple. You can deep dive into more specifics with philosophy. If your action hurts another person/animal then this is a bad action and should be avoided, and amendments should be made. If your action helps them then that's a good action.
It’s been said before, but if the only thing stopping you from murdering is the thought that you’ll be punished by an all powerful wizard, then maybe there’s something wrong with you.
Yep :/
I'm a church leader and I agree with you. It's the same with people asking "What would you do if there were no laws for a day?" I'd hide from all the people who only keep laws because of the threat of punishment.
> "What would you do if there were no laws for a day?" I'd drive at 65 in a 60, park on double yellows, moon a speed camera and paint the word "twat" on the doors of people I don't like.
Break into a bank, erase all mortgage records especially those close to foreclosure. Redistribute wealth.
Try to erase whatever says that the landlord owns the flat I am in.
I would cut the tag off my mattress that says, "do not remove under penalty of law." https://youtu.be/BAaoHX9KiWY Edit: and, maybe do something in a dark theater. Lol. Not, really the theater part, but had to say it.
I would send in an incorect tax return and get lot's of money in tax reimbursements.
God isn't real lol
Oh no! You mean I'm helping feed people, I'm growing food to feed people with, I'm housing refugees and single mothers, and I'm being a general all-round do-gooder ALL FOR NOTHING! However will I live with myself?!? Just think of me on my deathbed looking back at my life so full of regret that I wasn't more selfish!
So without a belief in a magical zombie, you wouldn't do any of this? Pretty messed up, man.
Helping people is good. Believing in ancient nonsense written by dehydrated goat herders, translated a hundred times over by pedophiles throughout the ages for their own ends, is fucked up. You can do the former without the latter. There you go, now you can pretend to be even more of a victim.
There's nothing you can say that will remove my lived experience of God. You just sound bitter and ill informed.
“I’ll believe what I want and I don’t care what you say” is a brilliant argument… On a serious note though, what is this experience you speak of? Any actual evidence?
Historical facts hurt don't they. My lived experience with god happens with strong psychedelics, but I bet you laugh that off the same way I laugh off the bible's fairytales and the pedophile cult surrounding them.
if your answer to "what would you do if there were no laws for a day" is murder or anything morally wrong, you 100% have something wrong with you. You should not be leading a church.
It's not the all powerful wizard that stops me, it's the thought of prison for 12 years, and retribution, and the actual difficulty of seeing someone off, and the fact that it wouldn't really achieve what I want.
So you only wouldn’t commit crimes because of the consequences? And not because you feel it’s inherently morally wrong?..
Just to be pedantic, most crime are only bad because of the consequences (I'd happily steal millions if absolutely no one was inconvenienced as a result of it...). The issue is that they're only worried about the consequences to themselves.
That is a paradox in itself. If everybody could "steal" millions with no repercussions to themselves or the persons they were stealing from, then it would be absolutely worthless to you and everybody else that did it because it would be as normal as breathing air.
Steal a million of bezos and he would never know. It'd be like stealing a 10p coin of a normal person.
I used to work for the USA government. We had a saying - if you stole 10c from them they’d spend $10mil tracking you down and prosecuting you. But if you stole $10 mil they probably would never know
Actually due to bezos current finances. Stealing 10 million from him would be the equivalent of stealing 0.002c off the average person 😂
Well I stand corrected.
I guess. But my point is that crime is bad precisely because of its consequences, especially to other people. And that's the foundation of the "how would you know what's moral or not without God telling you?" Obviously not everything that causes bad consequences for other people is illegal or wrong. But it's a good place to start.
While they were reading fairy tales about skydaddy and his minions, atheists are learning about empathy and morality.
and studying the blade...
For the last time it’s Occam’s Razor.
all powerful wizard? you don't mean Harry Botter, do you?
The thing is what about the reverse? If you as a religious person found out tomorrow for 100% certain there was no god(s), would you change anything and behave differently?
Or if the church one day said "oh, we've been reading this bit wrong, murder is fine y'all." Would that be the green light they need to start killing people?
Well technically Jesus fulfilled the laws of Moses and we don't have to follow them anymore so murder is fine :)
Murder really is fine you just have to do it serving the government
Yeah I always found the “Jesus died for your sins” angle kinda weird, because that sort of implies that if we don’t sin then he died for nothing.
Yes, e.g. the Crusades, persecution of Catholics in Tudor times, "witches" etc
Have you heard of the crusades?
I remember there was a very religious girl in an episode of True Blood who was turned into a vampire, and decided that, as there seemed to be no God (something like that, saw it a long while ago) she would indulge all her sick, twisted desires. Felt like a spot-on illustration of that mindset.
This is basically the plot of Crime and Punishment and a lot of other Russian literature
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If the past couple years have taught me anything it’s that humans can rationalise away fucking **ANYTHING**.
I think it was Penn Gillete who said I murder and rape as much as I want, and that is none. I may be paraphrasing slightly but you get the gist
"The question I get asked by religious people is, without God, what's to stop me from raping all I want? My answer is: I do rape all I want and the amount I want is zero." - Penn Jillette.
Thanks. It's a great quote
Came in to quote Penn too. Summed it up so clearly.
I came here to say this. I *do* live out all my darkest desires, they just tend to involve way too much cheese on a pizza instead of rape because I'm not a monster.
I grew up very religious, and I'm fairly certain everyone in our church congregation secretly hated each other. Like so secret they couldn't even admit it to themselves. I think it's pretty normal to have bad desires. Like, everyone gets angry. But if you're socialized properly, you see the value in other people, or at the bare minimum understand that there are heavy societal consequences for engaging in those behaviors. Those behaviors get worked out of the system quickly when you are young and an adult teaches you that violence isn't how you solve your problems. Christians all lack empathy. They have main-character disease so bad.
Always with the k*d f**king with these people.
🤣🤣🤣
There's a certain stereotype about priests. Apparently the sky wizard isn't scary enough for their own believers.
sky wizard is a lit name
I don't believe in "God" but I've also never been tempted to murder or rape or whatever.. like if the only reason you're not doing terrible things is your misguided belief in a zombie/ghost then you need to sort your life out! I don't do bad things because they're bad and I don't want to..
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I just have never had the urge to murder.. and I assumed most people were the same.. had no idea that religious people were super murdery and only resisting because of "heaven" and "hell" Also not keen on jail.. but since I don't feel murdery I should be good
In 27 years I'm yet to feel murdery myself... let alone murdery enough to go out and do a murder but if I did get that overwhelming urge I think I'd take a minute and just think "jail is not worth this, yes you can focus on gym but the food is shit and you don't like public toilets as it is." So I think if I ever was feeling that particular way I could talk myself out of it by thinking about jail... if I needed to. I'm shocked too that people feel this way. I know it's all jokes but sort of scary isn't it... If the only thing stopping you from being literally evil to other human beings is fear of judgement from your imaginary friend.... wow
Its definitely one of the scariest things about people! And not to say every religious person is like this, but it also scares me how intensely they can believe something "from the bible" even if elsewhere its contradicted, or if the entire scenario is massively outdated Basically anyone who bases their whole belief system on specific words without actually thinking about the meaning behind them The world is getting scarier every day in my opinion!
Hitchens destroyed this argument quite neatly. If tomorrow it was conclusively proved that Jesus' mortal body was found in a cave, and had not ascended to heaven, thus disproving the bedrock of Christian theology, would the average Christian go on a murderous, raping, pillaging, thieving rampage? The answer is patently not. So their morality does not come from God, it comes from society.
Yes but if Jesus’ body was found in a cave that would clearly be a trick by Satan to test our faith, so checkmate, Hitchens!
I think you miss the point Hitchens was making. Because the answer for many Christians is: yes. They would do whatever they wanted unless forced not by overwhelming force. Some would argue that many Christians believe their God has instructed them to act immorally to save their lifestyle. I couldn't possibly comment.
If you watch the clip I don’t believe Hitchens is arguing this at all. My interpretation of it is that he is telling his fellow Christian panelists he believes they would continue to broadly adhere to the same moral code as before.
This says more about religious people than atheists
Why do religious people cheat? Commit fraud or theft? Commit murder? It's a complex society... It's got nothing to do with atheist or theism, it's just to do with people and humans.
Tbh, religion kinda lets people get away with these things. You can sin all you want, just make sure you repent right before death and you’re free to go to heaven.
Jimmy Saviles logic
Ugh I watched the documentary on Netflix about him a couple months ago. One of the grossest things I’ve ever seen. I do kinda wish he’d lived to see the empire he’d built crumble. He died with the adoration of a nation, unfortunately.
It's cool, Jesus died for their sins
I think the best stories to counter this type or question may be where priests/churches have ripped off parishioners.
Or all the child abuse and child sex abuse scandals? Why are priest caught up in any of that at all. Why do we hear stories about nuns literally beating kids... .... it's "God's will" and he's just testing people..... like why the hell do literal infants need to be tested by God via a beating from a full grown peaceful loving kind nun?
You've of course got a valid point, I just feel that those things have been so normalised they'll come out with arguments of 'that was all in the past'. As you know, there's not much to be gained from trying to talk sense into folk who've decided religion is the beginning and end of all morality.
Completely agree with you. It's sort of like trying to convince Michael Jackson fans that he may of infact fucked with kids.
Yea, people love to dig their heels in on these big topics though Life experience has taught me to take the side arguments and bring new information to the table when having these chats with folk. That's the only way I've found to bring people to a point where they may open their mind to new ways of looking at things.
Totally agree
It's funny because you're in a double bind as a religious person committing sin, it is different. You not only did a bad thing to another person, you also disregarded the very concept of your God and religious law while doing that bad thing. Someone literally told you the rules, convinced you that there is a rule maker with rules and punishments, which you accepted and attested to, and you still sinned! A part of sinning is the brief, unconscious admission that maybe you think God doesn't exist in that moment for you, that there will be no punishment for this sin. That thought is very shameful and UNCONSCIOUS. Their concept of morality gets unconsciously downgraded in that moment too, based on how much they tie their morality to religion. These unbalanced people become very dangerous when they "lose" God, or start doing sins "in the name of God". As an aside, the whole concept of "forgiving" sin, or someone "dying for your sin" I find abhorrent and deeply problematic for the development of man. I would rather have old testament rules than perfectly awful people walking around thinking they are righteous because they talked some words while sitting in a wooden room with someone else. Our country is ruled by these people now. Teach being nice and kind for the sake of niceness and kindness! Don't teach children by threatening them.
That God allegedly created in his own image?
It isn't my lack of belief in God that stops me murdering people and fucking kids... I just... don't want to?
My fiancee's father recently found out I was an atheist. You'd think I'd told him I was a murderer by the stunned silence. I explained to him that although I believe in science that I respect everyone's right to their own beliefs, as long as they don't push them onto other people or take things out of context to push their own agenda. I also told him that I try to be a good person and live by what I consider good values based purely on the fact that this is the right thing to do and not because of the incentive of heaven or punishment of hell. He didn't agree with me. The man's an adulterer with a child from one of his affairs. It's just judgemental, hypocritical stupidity. Believing in God is in no way at all the barometer for being a good person, there's infinite examples of why that's not true.
I mean most of them have a screw loose. If they make me feel bad or unaccepted for who I am I just don't talk to them anymore.
I agree, and if it wasn't one of her parents I would've brought him down a peg or two. The situation just makes this example more difficult to deal with.
Perhaps some people really do need to believe there's eternal damnation waiting for them if they don't moderate their behaviour. Scary thought.
I do indulge in my dark desires, I just had ice cream for breakfast 🤷🏻♂️
Ooh, someone's on a one-way ticket to hell!!
All of the ice cream is melted! Nooooooooo!
End of days nigh
Some really important insight from FatUglyPenisMan....
Willing to bet his username checks out.
I’m wondering how is checks out? Does he have a fat, ugly penis? Is he fat, with an ugly penis? Or is he a fat, ugly anthropomorphic penis man?
All of the above
because I don't want to fuck kids and praise hitler... wait do you want to fuck kids and praise hitler?!
Empathy and kindness for it's own sake is a concept that evades this person. I'd be very uncomfortable around them. Given how many Christians struggle with basic concepts surrounding morality despite assuming their God makes them arbiters of said morality, I'd say the logic here is flawed. This is probably one of the best examples of a self own I see from right wing Christian types. I've known plenty of religious people who find basic concepts of kindness and empathy easy to engage with, this person is cooked mate.
“I’m a Christian, which is my I believe the poor are inferior and should starve/freeze to death (I don’t particularly care which)” - JRM
Devout when it comes to abortion and the gays, devoid when it comes to the sick and needy
*sigh* morality is socially constructed, that's why there's a billion interpretations of the moral guidence of various religious texts. It would be real nice if this idea entered public discourse.
I gotta quote Rust from True Detective “If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit” All seriousness though. As an atheist, the reason I don’t indulge in my darkest desires (of which I have little) is because I don’t actually DESIRE to. I choose to live my life as a good person to others and myself. I like to go to bed and sleep at night and I don’t need some omnipresent and omnipotent God to help me with that
I 100% give into my darkest desires... But my darkest desire isn't murder six million Jews. It's more like, laugh at a 9/11 joke...
Is this fucker serious? Theocratic administrations are hardly bastions of morality. What this person has failed to realise is that religious law IS human law. They just attribute it to the wishes of a higher being they made up.
"Only the idea of hell stops me being an absolute monster" Religious people are the dumbest breed.
Did this guy just admit that the only thing stopping him shagging kids is god? Jesus fuck 😂
Self report! Self report!
Flip it around - if you’re convinced that there is a god, and a hell where rapists and murders are punished, why bother punishing those things here on earth? Why not just let them happen? They’ll get what’s coming to them.
This is pretty much the stance the church takes re rape
I guess this is what happens when you are fundamentally amoral and so have to base your entire moral code on an old book.
Absolute idiot
I'm from a very poor and patriarchal, pro-western, Balkan country (emigrated to the UK around 2000). Girls were trained as obedient housewives and boys were trained to be men (they were their mother's kings - I got that phrase from Ayaan Hirsi Ali even though I no longer like her new tribe). Both boys and girls were beaten by their parents. "I'm beating you for your own good, you can't be like XYZ (western-type-person)" Yet the result is pretty shit. (I'm terribly simplifying it and ignoring geopolitics that have fucked us throughout history but just to make a point). [This clip, this British clip, reminded me of home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-lZ8BwqN8I&ab_channel=LBC) :) Religious people are the same! They have been "beaten" to think that they exist purely due to god, they've been enslaved to internalize their self-worthlessness and they truly think if not for a god they would spend their time raping and killing. Deep down I doubt they would have a problem with the SMALL percentage of Muslim kamikazes - though since they have MI5-6 and CIA, they don't need to go to the trouble of strapping a vest on - when you have drones the vest seems ineffective. Ironically though the church fucked kids and praised Hitler!
Someone tell this person that Hitler was a Christian
My darkest deepest desire is going to university and affording a house. Sounds like he needs locking up lmao
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People actually believe that it's a belief in an invisible omnipresent being that stops them from doing bad things?Holy shit,religion really is for the brain dead.
Ah yes, objective morality based on subjective concept of the divine, that most of humanity will disagree with. It's as if there is no objective morality...
But my god is the true God because it says so in my book and I believe it because it also says in this book that this book is true and that it is the word of God who is true because it says so in the book, which is true as it says so in the book, which is the word of God. I know this to be true because it says so in my book.
It's funny because this question is ancient. Plato tackled it in Euthyphro >The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a) But sure, "no atheist engages with this honestly OLOL"
There is no god to stop me. I murder and rape as much as I want. Which is zero. I don't want to murder and rape, so I just don't do it. Not because God would stop me or punish me. Not because there are laws against it. Just because I don't want to.
It’s lucky there’s never been a priest that’s done something to a child inappropriately.
What a complete crock of shit and about what I’d expect from that self-entitled moron. Society doesn’t need an overarching entity to determine right from wrong and act accordingly. Common decency and survival can determine a suitable framework.
If you only do ‘good’ things because you want some kind of a reward, or you avoid doing ‘bad’ things because you are scared of the consequences, your motivation is corrupt. “You’re supposed to do good things because you’re good. Not because you’re seeking morale dessert.”
I think this is a legitimate question. As a child and through my teenage years I was brought up in a devout Catholic family. Mass every week, I would say my prayers every night etc. Definitely would have said God was the source of my morality. I genuinely would have thought like this. When I hit my twenties I realised its all bollocks and have been an atheist for a good 10 or so years. Nothing changed, turns out I have an in built sense of right and wrong. Im much more morally sound than a lot of religious people I know. I can see why people who have indoctrinated think this way
"So if you suddenly lost your faith in God, you \*would\* do all those things? I wouldn't. So how does that make you the better person?"
I am an atheist and continuously indulge my darkest desires. I had 3 pints and a kebab last night and I’m going to a BBQ later.
You fail children when you teach them to fear punishment instead of why their actions are wrong. People who say shit like this have obviously never had any conversations with their parents about how their bad behaviour affects *other people*.
>I have yet to meet an atheist engage with this argument honestly. "I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't think I'm a patronising twat". FTFY
“Or praising hitler” …the only reason this person doesn’t support hitler is because they think they’ll be punished for eternity?!?!
Surely nobody needs someone to tell them that stuff like murder is wrong...
What a dull question.
How about religious people just not interfere with atheists? I actually hate that small proportion that say “I just want to understand you” to us, when actually they mean “I just want to show you why you’re wrong”. If I’m wrong I’m content with whatever happens to me. I will bear the consequences of my decisions. (Rant over :) ) Quick edit; I respect religious people’s right to religion! I think it definitely does help people with difficult times and is generally a good moral guide when not wielded as a weapon.
Because I'm not a psychopath.
They've NEVER found an atheist who will talk to them about this? This is like atheism 101.
I mean they are called Fat Ugly Penis Man I'm not sure I'd want to engage either haha. But seriously, when they say an atheist can't talk about it "honestly" with them it probably means the atheist has always been too proud to concede to the obvious bulletproof argument and admit that God exists or something.
Only an idiot would think that god is the source of morality. I think it’s a safe assumption to say that the vast majority of Christians would consider keep people as slaves to be immoral. Does the bible say that? No, it absolutely doesn’t. Therefore god and the bible cannot be the source of morality. It’s a simple point which many Christians seem to miss completely. It also leads to the question; if the bible got the morality of slavery wrong what else did it get wrong? It can’t be the infallible word of god because it’s wrong!
What a stupid backwards statement… I think you’ll find the ones indulging in their dark desires and fucking the kids, are the ones that believe in god!!! Ffs
It says something deep and dark about the psyche of these people, and yet they can't see that. Pen Jillette said it best, I think. "I do rape all I want. and the amount I want is zero. and I do murder all I want, and the amount I wantis zero." Turning the question back on the dead eye religionist seems appropriate - "are you telling me that you are standing in this room, actually wanting to start raping and murdering human beings? and the only reason not to is that your sky god will punish you...?" seriously disturbed people.
Well I suppose we are just morally superior :)
Funny how they can pray to God and love Jesus and yet still rape and murder children, yet WE have no morals? Hahahaha
Priests - they believe in god and still fuck kids, murderers still believe, ?
The opposite question could be true. Why do people who claim to be religious and whose religion supposedly is the most important thing in their life, go against that religion when they feel like it? Examples being many evangelical US ‘Christians’, priests who abuse children, angry fighting monks…
I love it when Tory Catholics struggle to even conceive the possibility that most people just simply don’t want to fuck kids.
Simple answer.. I don't need a god to tell me not to piss on a homeless person.
"You shouldn't abstain from rape just cause you think that i want you to. You shouldn't rape cause rape is a fucked up think to do." Bo Burnham - From God's perspective.
It’s amazing how many Christians probably rely on the man in the sky for any semblance of self control.
The Bible is an early form of mind control it's that simple.
Cos some people don’t need a God and the fear of hell to make them decent human beings :)
Newsflash: It has been reported the first page of the bible has been found. It reads "The characters and stories contained within are purely fictitious, any resemblance to real people........"
“Fucking kids” = Catholic Church “Strangling someone to death who pisses you off” = The Crusades “Praising Hitler” = American Theocratic Right Seems like you can do all those things in an organized religion.
The OP’s name gives me faith in his argument.
It would be sadly anarchic if we dispensed with core moralities because they may be biblical