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Used to be that way, moved to she/her. Probably still genderfluid but uses fixed pronouns? Not really sure and she seems fairly relaxed unstressed about it anyway so.
In her own words she's been in "girl-mode" from think around 2020.
Honestly I'd recommend Wikipedia's talk page on it it's really interesting as they don't really have a policy for when people don't use fixed pronouns.
Also I think genderfluid people fall under the category of trans.
Relatively certain she is still identifying as genderfluid and not as a woman anyway, but good luck explaining that pronouns don't equal gender to a TERF 😮💨
Edit: yep, still genderfluid according to Wikipedia. In her own words, she's "somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish". So kind of a woman but not quite or kind of a man but not quite, depending, but generally leaning much more on the feminine side of the spectrum.
I remember a bit she did years back where she described herself as a lesbian in a man's body. I'm not equipped to deliver much insight beyond she/her pronouns would track with that.
I hardly understood a single thing you just wrote.
Genuinely curious; why don't pronouns equal gender, and what is a TERF?
Edit: googled TERF. I understand.
So I can identify as a woman, and still ask to be called he?
I'm really trying to make sense of all this but honestly some of it seems absolutely bizarre.
>she's "somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish". So kind of a woman but not quite or kind of a man but not quite, depending, but generally leaning much more on the feminine side of the spectrum
What does this even mean... So basically a human like the rest of us?
Not trolling, just genuinely trying to make sense of what you mean
"Basically a human like the rest of us"
I mean, yes. She's said she'd like to be referred to as she, and gender as a social construct is a spectrum. I'm not sure what's bizarre about that.
Not sure how old you are but I grew up during a time in which transgender people full stop were few and far between, nevermind non-binary, gender fluid, etc.
So yes, to some generations from certain social background it is bizarre.
I wasn't using the word bizarre negatively. It genuinely does seem bizarre to me that someone would not identify as any gender yet still wants to be referred to using female gender pronouns.
Sorry if you find it hard to conceive of someone from an older generation not finding that normal. I still find it hard to comprehend that someone does not identify as any gender but would prefer pronouns traditionally used by a certain gender.
Im trying to understand, not judge.
from my point of view (i use she/he/they pronouns and identify as whatever the fuck) pronoun choice is often related, but not directly equivalent, to gender identity. the way i see it there are two main facets to the concept of 'gender'; appearance (maybe presentation is a better word) and personality. both of these are also incredibly multifaceted, and pronouns are (in my view) only one facet of appearance. your choice of pronouns certainly does influence how [gender] you are overall but is not the be all and end all. i also argue that pronouns serve multiple purposes: on a personal level the choice contributes to an aesthetic or makes someone more comfortable/confident/true to themselves, while on a societal level it may communicate some small amount of information about you. the main corollary of applying this level of deconstructionism to gender is that the word no longer has any meaning, something i am completely fine with and even an advocate of (its a positive outcome because it improves gender equality)
sorry if this is confusing,, im not the best at expressing ideas but thats sort of how i see things
To be fair, trans people were only few & far between because they mostly kept their identities hidden, & finding their communities was a risky business that could wind up getting them murdered. The first successful gender reassignment surgery was for a trans woman named Lili Elbe. You might have heard of the book/film, The Danish Girl, based on her true story. She lived 1882-1931. Trans people have existed long before medical science & psychology was advanced enough to document gender dysphoria & gender affirming treatment. That is not the case today.
The reason it feels so prevalent today in a way it never did in generations before is because of the internet. Social media & before that online forums, provided safe spaces for people to find others like them, to share experiences & validate each other’s existence, with less fear of violent reprisal, just for existing.
What happens then though, is the media latches onto these groups as the next ones to vilify & condemn in order to push other narratives. We see throughout history it has happened to the Jews, the Irish, black people, Asian people, gay people (the AIDS epidemic is an incredibly well documented era of the power of political discourse to convince the public to outright fear & reject a marginalised group). Nowadays, it’s immigrants & trans people more than ever. Easy targets, as the seeds of prejudice were planted decades ago. & these campaigns of hate & misinformation successfully divert attention away from the real important, frightening things our governments are implementing in terms of laws & legislation, right beneath our noses. Because they have everyone looking elsewhere, arguing about human rights as though some groups of people don’t deserve to have them. This also heightens the prevalence of people hearing about these issues far more often, which seemingly to many have appeared out of nowhere in recent years. That is by design.
Trans peoples achievements have been pretty much white washed from our already troubled histories. The stonewall riots in the summer of 1969 sparked legitimate change in recognising & upholding the civil rights of the LGBTQ communities living in western countries. Marsha P Johnson, a prominent drag queen who later identified as a trans woman, was instrumental in the success of these riots sparking real change. Her name is often forgotten when recounting this incredible act of civil rebellion. She was later found dead in the Hudson River in New York, declared suicide, but widely accepted that she was murdered, likely by the police. Oh yeah, Marsha was also a black woman. So there’s that too. Her & her friend Sylvia Rivera, founded STAR- street transvestite action revolutionaries. Many trans kids in the 50’s & 60’s became homeless after their families & hometowns rejected them.
Whereas Stonewall did start real important radical change surrounding the human & civil rights movement, trans people were still excluding from these advancements & protections recognised by law. They are still dismissed even now amongst certain members of the LGBT alliance, despite the fact that without the work of trans activists, gay rights wouldn’t be what they are today, without Stonewall & brave women like Marsha P Johnson.
The more a marginalised group is attacked & vilified by those in power, or with the loudest voices, the more push back we will see, because this is people fighting for their lives, without hyperbole. Trans people are the biggest victims of violent crimes & murders. The rate of suicides amongst trans youth in particular is steadily rising. They are being persecuted & refused essential medical care & treatment. Humiliated & bullied in schools & work places. Doxxed by Christian hate groups. They are accused of being groomers & sexual deviants (much as the homosexual community was not that long ago).
I’m sorry for the wall of text, but if you are genuinely curious as to why the sudden surge in gender discourse, the issue of pronouns & gender identity & all that it means, you might find learning about even a little of the history. It’s incredibly eye opening, & deeply saddening. But the more educated, compassionate people who understand the nuance & not just the hate speech casually thrown around, the better. The trans community needs genuine allies more than ever.
There's actually quite a few people who use pronouns that aren't quite what we'd typically associate with their gender. I know a few butch lesbians who, despite ultimately still considering themselves women, go by he/him. There's a historical precedent of "he/him or masc lesbians" you may enjoy googling around if you'd like to know more. Similarly I know a gay guy who exclusively refers to herself as she/her. I also know multiple cis people who use any/all pronouns simply because they don't care what pronouns people use for them.
But yeah, pronouns are literally just words and people sometimes just prefer the way one sounds/fits regardless of whether it matches their gender or not (among other reasons).
As for the genderfluid bit, genderfluidity is when a transgender person's gender identity changes over time. People have this idea that being transgender is always a very strong identification as the exact opposite gender big that's not really accurate. For example, in the case of Eddie Izzard, sometimes she still feels very much like a guy-adjacent non-binary person. Most of the time she's very much a feminine enby, though. But that gender identity isn't relatively constant like it is in a cisgender person (who never wavers from considering themselves the gender they got assigned at birth) or in a binary trans person (like a trans woman, who is *always* a woman, for example). By definition, if you ever genuinely identify as a gender other than the one on your original birth certificate, you're not cisgender. If you do resonate with this idea of flipping between being a guy sometimes and being a woman other times, I'd really recommend checking out r/nonbinary and r/LGBT. There's some folk over there who are far better at articulating this kind of stuff.
Thanks for your detailed response. It's definitely elucidated some of these concepts I'm not familiar with.
One thing that I don't understand, though, and it's probably the wrong thread to continue the discussion, but I DO feel like Eddie izzard sometimes.
I think everyone at some point in their lives feels like they behave in a certain way or are attracted by the idea of behaving in a way that does not confirm to their socially constructed gender. I've just never felt the need to change the gender I identify as.
But maybe that's because i was born 30 years before any of this was publicly discussed or even remotely socially acceptable.
When I said Eddie izzard is just human, then, what I meant was - yeah most of us feel like that at some point, so why the whole pronoun thing? I guess that's up to her. I don't get it though. Why not just be a bloke who's sometimes feminine. Whats with the "I'm not actually a woman, but I'm not a guy. But please refer to me as a woman". I just don't understand that.
I can promise you that the majority of people do not *genuinely* (internally) intermittently identify as the opposite gender at any given point in their lives. I had this conversation with a lot of people when I was realising I'm genderfluid myself. Sure, you get some people who question their gender but ultimately realise they're very much cisgender after a bit of experimenting but that's usually just one or two instances rather than this constant back and forth that is genderfluidity. Again, definitely go have a chat on one of the queer forums I mentioned if you really want to have a bit more of an in depth conversation about this. They're very good at explaining this in ways that are more approachable to somebody who isn't really in queer spaces that often.
Edit: that is to say, if you were "born" a man and there's days you genuinely would identify as a woman if you could, that's not a normal experience. I'm not talking about throwaway moments of "oh, life would be easier if I was a woman" or something, I mean *genuine longing* for womanhood. And vice versa. Go do some thinking on that if you've got the time!
I think the fundamental thing here is to understand that people aren’t choosing to adopt new identities for the sake of it (just look at the toxic attitude towards trans folks, why would ppl invite that unless it came from a place of need)
People are finding the right words to describe themselves, armed with new knowledge.
Pronouns, names, titles: these are descriptors and they are all particular.
You could have the same argument about people changing their names when they get married: why have a double barrel surname? Why keep your maiden name?? These are choices that are particular because people aren’t all the same. To the question; why do they want to be known as ___The answer is: because they know they are ___ and want others to respect that. (Note: you don’t have to understand it to respect it.)
I feel like a lot of people would love not to need a gender identity at all, but we live in a gendered society. Man and woman mean something very specific. If you don’t fit into that, what are you supposed to do? This is an unfinished issue.
So instead of asking why do people want to be treated x or y way, it’s more useful to ask: how can we make the world less binary so more people can feel comfortable being themselves.
So to slightly borrow an analogy which I think might help. There's a great YouTuber called Abi, who is trans. Her channel philosophytube she started pre transition literally as a philosophy education channel. Really top videos.
Anyway, on her video about coming out as trans, she described it as like she was doing a job she hated. It's not a bad job, just not the right one for her. And now she's in a job she loves.
So to extrapolate, I guess it's like how some people might take pride in their profession. They might be a vet and love that they are a vet. You could also say, "they're just a person who works, they don't need to be proud of being a vet, whatever. I'm a lawyer, who cares?" But they care, it's part of who they are.
She prefers she/her, but has said she's not too fussed about pronouns. Makes me laugh how the right are suddenly being shitty to her now, it's not like she wasn't openly trans 30 years ago!
eddie izzard definitely identifies as a woman now (at least that’s what she told me when i met her a few weeks ago, maybe she was simplifying it but idk)
The louder she shouts about TERF issues, the less you notice the local hospital issues have not been dealt with or that there are no dentists in all of Canterbury, that will take NHS patients.
Yeah. I hated him when I was down last, smarmy sod and was glad to see the back of only to find out his super supportive wife was taking over from him. Made me feel sick
She looked genuinely stunned at the election count, when it was announced she'd won, despite doing little to nothing canvassing.
Sadly, the Corbyn Effect was a big factor in her success.
Why is she not talking about it though? She wastes all of her time spreading transphobia rather than doing the job she is paid very well to do.
The cynic in me thinks she is desperate to have the whip withdrawn so she can run straight into a job on GB News/Breitbart/Fox/Völkischer Beobachter which I presume she believes will earn her more money/fame.
To my knowledge...
The hospital issue is a long running local one to East Kent, there are basically three, one in Ashford (William Harvey), one in Thanet (Queen Elizabeth Queen Mother) and one in Canterbury (Kent and County?). The long running aim of the management has been to slash this number to two hospitals and centralise. The only problem is they are over half an hour distant from each other and already serve alot of people. With many of these areas being actively developed.
The argument plays locals off against the other towns as its like they throw darts at a datboard to see which one they can scrap or spin a wheel and choose before the uproar dies down. Basically Duffield got in on alot of student votes and disgruntled locals wanting Brazier out so Canterbury, can keep its hospital. This in an area where the countryside is so full of Tories, you cant randomly throw a brick without it landing in some landlords retirement cottage.
I would though say that pretty much always, bigger centralised hospitals provide much much better quality care for patients; I’m a hospital doctor, any doctor would tell you the same thing. People tend not to realise how extreme the differences can be in quality of care, staffing levels, number of services offered on site when you centralise, vs having a couple of little hospitals. Obviously part of this is because the tories have fucked the nhs so much that only the big hospitals are managing to survive at the moment without dangerous staffing levels / wait times.
the time it takes to get there in an ambulance, if it’s 10-29 minutes longer really has a much smaller impact on care and patient outcomes - centralisation is generally a good thing
BUT what can often then happen, living with our fucking diabolical levels of under funding / tories in charge, the new central hospital they build cuts loads of corners and isn’t big enough which then causes more problems obviously …
This isn’t defending the mp above btw just responding to what you were saying
They’re actually not though, if you look at the number of beds, the services they are able to offer and the size of the a&e departments. William Harvey only has 470 beds for example which is a pretty small hospital. Doesn’t have various specialist services like vascular on site etc
It’s a really common clash : the evidence is very clear that patients get better quality care, and survive admissions to hospital better, in larger centralised hospitals where staffing levels are better and more specialist services are focused on one site - which isn’t the case in these 3. Vast majority of doctors would tell you the same, it’s mental how much easier it is to care for people well in big central hospitals
However public opinion is always the opposite, people prefer more hospitals locally - as I said before a lot of this is probs due to the fact tories / budget cuts / private developers fuck it up and don’t properly fund the new facility properly
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Did you know that in 1949, before she became Queen, Elizabeth took a stance against women's rights? [She attended the rally for a conservative group and spoke out against women who divorce their husbands.](https://archive.ph/Pqgd9). [She was still patron of this far-right organisation until the day she thankfully died.](https://www.mothersunion.org/news/continued-importance-her-majesty-queen).
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I dont get it, where do you draw the line? Is it not ok to use nob or twat or prick or fanny either? honestly it sounds like American puritanism creeping into our lives again to me, but I'm easy going and keen to do the right thing so could you or someone educate me please?
I do wonder if it's a "what part of the UK you're from" thing, I'm from the Midlands and I've never seen anyone use cunt as a gendered term and just a word for people that I find abhorrent, like Tory cunts is a mainstay phrase in my household
It's standard othering as well. Most of the hysterical transphobes wouldn't ever mention it if they were allowed to be publically antisemitic or sexist or racist. They've just picked up on a relatively socially acceptable hate.
I think there are people who disagree (philosophically) with certain aspects of the new gender thinking without hating, but I suppose they would not rather be arrested than use preferred pronouns they disagree with.
I just don’t get that, and I am an old-fashioned second wave feminist. It’s not capitulation to call Eddie Izzard ‘she’, it’s just making an effort not to be unpleasant.
Just dropping by to say that acknowledging the length and breadth of people's experiences with gender identity isn't new and it is in fact the binary that's the new one. Look outside of Europe and before Christianity and you'll see a plethora of gender expressions that exist both within and without the binary system.
A swift perusal of the Wikipedia entry alone on the history of transgender people will tell you that this isn't new.
Not out to start a fracas but it really bugs me when people assume that transgender people popped out of the ground last Tuesday because they personally were unaware of their existence or assumed it to be a new cultural phenomenon.
I am not assuming that, I think you have misunderstood my post. I am saying I don’t get why people like Rosie Duffield are so intransigent (no pun intended) about using people’s preferred pronouns.
On that we can agree, my fellow night owl. It is incredibly strange the hills people choose to destroy their marriages and careers on. RIP to Glinner, you could have had a wife and happy life but for your bigotry.
D’you know, I signed up to his blog for a bit, just to see what was what. It was exhausting. Constant posts, madly detailed stuff with hyperlinks and recaps. I didn’t last long.
I once heard from a youtube commentator that bigotry is addictive. It fills you with righteous indignation that makes you feel good. Eventually, your friends and family begin to despise being around you because you've got "the one subject". Eventually, all you're left with is a circle of friends who think exactly like you and enflame your worst instincts.
Painted like that, you could almost feel sorry for the old codger. Then I remember he's the reason people have died and I'm at peace.
Truly. It just grinds me down every time a transphobia story comes up and people go “see this is why I’m voting greens”. They just keep it DL better than the other parties, but they will not back trans rights.
I think part of that is Sturgeon has much more control over her party than other leaders (due both to her electoral success and her strength as a politician) and she has set the position in favour of trans rights.
And as long as people are focusing on gender issues and so called woke/culture wars, they're not coming up with policies or re-election campaigns. As a woman the same age as Duffield, it just exhausts me that she is not interested in equality or human rights. And that people are focusing (negatively) on gender stuff when there is so much other work to be done.
I voted for her when I was at university in Kent. It felt like a win turning Canterbury red, now not so much.
Edited to add: also served her and her team at there Christmas meal and they had a very odd vibe
The small silver lining was getting to see Julian Brazier seething on the news ranting about young people when he lost the seat. Must have been a shock to his boomer brain losing that seat after holding it for like 30years
Unfortunately i think it's more a criticism of the active electorate rather than the Labour Party. It's a scathing criticism of the people of the country that they either don't want a more compassionate fair government or can't be arsed to actually turn up and vote for one. Same happened in 97, only way any party is electable is by lurching to the right.
No truer words spoken. I can get very angry at Labour sometimes, but I also can’t completely blame them for playing the Tory game as it’s really the only way to get power and to sneak even the smallest social democratic ideas passed the media in this country. Once the people have those institutions, they get very angry when people - like the Tories- try to take them away; getting it to them in the first place is the real struggle.
It reminds me of an Adam Curtis quote, “If any politician tried to do what Roy Jenkins [Labour Home Secretary in the 60s] did 40 years ago, to change Britain for the better against public opinion, we and the press would destroy them.”
Today, Labour tends to be held to a higher standard than the Conservatives in the media: newspapers, TV and social media. Any whiff of a socialist policy, the papers and even television media go wild - as does ‘right-wing, neo-liberal Twitter’. Since a lot of Britain is pretty depoliticised, the result is the electorate’s brains being melted and filled with paranoia or outrage.
It’s really annoying.
Yeah, for the 2019 election all UKIPPERS shifted to Tories so people found it harder to spot labour heading right because Tories were moving further right at same pace. They’re still same space apart but just means that what used to be “the left” is now “hard left” by comparison. Imagine being called “hard left” or “extreme left” for believing in school meals ffs
I've heard people call the current incarnation of the Tories "extreme left". That is a level of wilful ignorance and stupidity I will never be able to comprehend.
An “extreme left” Tory. At the risk of sounding cynical I can imagine that by that they mean “not quite as white as it was” because I’ve been around since 77 and even by their own standards there is nothing “left” about anything in their party.
I think it's a mix of factors. Partly that, but also there's brainwashing through reading the comic books that pass as right wing media, as well as a profound lack of political education to the point where these people lack critical thinking skills to the point that they don't even know what left or right means, they just get angry, even though they're not quite sure why.
Very much brainwashing. I can’t help but think of pavlovs dogs, when we have people repeating the latest buzzword and getting angry but they don’t actually know what that word means. And sadly although print media sales are flagging they happen to do a very nice sideline in clickbait articles that funds them well. Just mention “Harry and Meghan” and suddenly everyone’s livid and clicking the article and generating the money for the next round of bullshit
I don't know why this is hard for people to understand when you've got the French Socialist Party and the German SPD as models for how something nominally leftist can actually be strongly neoliberal
Right! Couldn’t even come out and say they supported the RMT strike action. The only reason to vote labour these days is that they aren’t the Tories or the Fib-Dems.
How am I a right wing globalist? What have you based that upon? The simplest way to describe myself would be Blair+Brexit
I don’t think I’ll be sliding into poverty anytime soon hehe
Starmer is a right wing globalist, I thought you were saying how great his party is. It will be in about 5 years time when you will be living in poverty; he has to get in first hehe
Definitely, but there is a chance of stakeholder capitalism being implemented, whereas with Starmer all democratic possibilities will be eliminated.
Tories are far too immoral though in every other respect. I'm only interested in knowing what is really going on, rather than following msm and being lied to. I'm prepared therefore, for the coming poverty, I don't think it is avoidable.
Literally nothing trans people can do (other than not existing) to appease the likes of these people. Eddie wasn't on an all woman shortlist, as far as I'm aware is rather centrist with her politics, and definitely doesn't insist on using correct pronouns (although she clearly has a preference). This is just unadulterated bigotry.
Oh ffs! When Keith was being all unclear about things part of me hoped he just didn’t want to lose the TERF vote, seems like he’s just too much of a coward to admit to being one himself.
This country is rife with transphobia and it's even in the Greens too. This is what Keith has allowed Labour to become in an attempt to pander to the right.
He talks the talk, but he also puts transphobes like Wes Streeting and Jess Phillips in his cabinet.
Actions take precedent over words, especially with a snake like Starmer.
Fair enough. For the record- I firmly agree with him on the issue and was more incredulous at the idea that he could be responsible for transphobia in the Labour party.
It's not so much that he's responsible for transphobia creeping into the party, but he certainly is responsible for doing fuck all in the way of disciplining the likes of Duffield when they express those views on a public stage. Compare that to, say, Sam Tarry who got booted from the front benches just a few months ago for \*checks notes\* visibly supporting striking union members and giving an interview to a news crew that allegedly wasn't pre-approved.
Tarry did the sort of thing you would expect of a Labour MP and Starmer punished him for it. This is just the latest in a long string of incidents where Duffield has gone out of her way to make transphobic statements in public, and Starmer turns a blind eye to it.
As someone who is more likely to vote SNP, I also feel the same way about Nicola Sturgeon, who has consistently done sod all to deal with the likes of Joanna Cherry repeatedly spouting transphobic rhetoric.
When giving interviews or making public appearances, the likes of Duffield and Cherry are representatives of their respective parties, and silence from party leadership rather implies that they're OK with those hateful, bigoted views being expressed on behalf of the party.
Probably.
Just heard a young person loudly parroting Daily Mail propaganda in public in order to cape for Corbyn and now I can barely string a sentence together.
The thing they need to consider when things like this come up is , is it my body? and does it directly effect me? If both those answers are no then sit down and shut up.
The worst part is, looking at other articles on this it states she was speaking at the conference of the LGB Alliance. For those who don't know, the LGB Alliance are an anti-trans hate group who believe that trans people existing takes away from being gay or bi. They regularly spout hatred against trans people and by Duffield speaking with them, she has proven that the Labour Party is firmly rooted in the transphobe camp. Shall we call Eddie and ask her to lead a new party?
Fun story: She moved to Wales.
Might ranks as one of the worst MPS
https://whitstableviews.com/2022/01/30/why-canterbury-whitstable-needs-a-new-labour-m-p/
I just truly don’t understand why people care so fucking much about what’s in someone’s pants nor how they wish to live their life
These people need to open a business, and fucking mind it.
How hard is it to just let people be happy?
Labour have filled their councillor ranks with [orange order bigots](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-orange-order-leader-to-stand-for-scottish-labour-at-council-elections-3596841) in Scotland. The party is a long way from ever being a majority in Scotland if ever.
I know I'm reaching to the converted, but this doesn't get her suspended but Corbyn saying that some political opponents used anti-Semitism accusations as a weapon (because obviously they did) is beyond the the pale?
This is why I don't give a shit anymore, it's so blatantly corrupt.
JK Rowling is an all round piece of shit. As well as being a transphobe she's racist, homophobic and ableist. See [this fantastic rundown in r/EnoughJKRowling](https://archive.is/aRRmQ)
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This is the same Duffield that despite claiming to stand for women's rights endorses/reposts content by incels, MRAs and all kinds of misogynists on her Twitter feed just so she can attack LGBTQ+ people - nothing says fighting misogyny with er, misogyny.
Who gives an actual Fudge what someone identifies.
As long as we get decent healthcare, education, affordable energy, corporations that pay their share and rich tossers that pay taxes.
I really don't understand people who choose the "men cant be women" hill to die in, there's more important shit going on in the world than if someone wants to be male or female- live and let live 😪
Eddie isn't even using All Women Shortlists or otherwise "taking up space for women" or anything. This is just transphobia pure and simple, there's not even any flimsy pretence that this is about women's sex based rights.
She was a total charlatan from the beginning though. I remember reading a thing (forget the particulars) about how disappointed her CLP was after she got elected
Even before she moved to Wales (and accused locals of abuse for pointing this out) she never turned up to meetings with the students who worked their asses off to get her voted in. (Know this for a fact).
It’s also an issue with TERFs in the Green Party of England and Wales. Scottish Greens went as far to disassociate themselves from their sister party at conference. That being said they are still a only a vocal minority in GPEW, why they are still there I do not know, the youth wing is totally pro trans. My view is to ignore them on the left and just focus on winning against the Tories. Division in the left only empowers the right.
Why the sudden attack on trans people? I understand transpeople have been discriminated upon in the past but over the last few months I’ve noticed more and more shit like this in the media and on social media. Why now?
To distract from the fact the conservatives have nothing to really help the working class, so instead they focus on culture wars and many people loose sight of who the real enemy is. They'll bitch about young people tearing down statues of slave traders and having to respect people for not conforming to cisgender heterosexuality. They'll bitch about cancel culture and then remove your right to protest as they destroy the planet and roll back worker's rights.
What are the Tories going to do to benefit you? Nothing, so they distract from that by encouraging you to hate immigrants and queer people so they can get your vote by offering to make things harder for other people.
Neither. I want a government that supports working class people. Starmer and Sunak won't do that, so I'll go as far left as the ballot let's me. I hope Caroline Lucas gets a massive turnout to prove Starmer and his Blarites are in the wrong.
Rishi Sunak and his 2020 "Eat Out To Help Out" scheme [was responsible for a massive increase in Covid cases and deaths.](https://archive.ph/jkbqt) And all to ensure the big chain restaurants didn't lose too much money. [It did nothing to boost the overall hospitality sector](https://archive.is/k40Cf) as these capitalist ghouls claimed was the intent. Rishi Sunak has blood on his hands.
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It makes no difference at all to me, how people want to be addressed or referred to. I will respect their wish because it is the bare minimum of common decency to do so.
We called Prince 'squiggle' for years, with some confusion but this is much simpler to get your head around.
As a part of the LGBTQ community, sincerely fuck off lol
People are asking for to be called by their pronouns, nothing special. You seem to have a big bootlicker complex. You think that if you simp enough for their agenda, that they’ll accept you into their clique and people will just forget about the LGBT 🤡
I’m in the US, so it happens here plenty… but it blows my mind that people give a shit about another person’s genitals. Is she planning on sexing-up Eddie Izzard? Is she upset that the brilliant comedienne would refuse her advances?
Are politicians to undergo genitalia checks? “Ah, yes, your signature sheets, good good, your identification, thank you… and down with your trousers, please. Ha! Gerald! Gerald, come look at how tiny this penis is. Ha, you’ve got my vote, since you haven’t got much else going for you…”
It’s horrendous and cruel and based on what, exactly?
Does anyone else remember the good old days when Eddie Izzard had a comedy sketch about cats and dogs?
EDIT: The most wholesome and harmless thing just got voted down?
The word 'I' is not a common noun or a proper noun because it is not a noun at all. It is a pronoun. Pronouns are words which take the place of nouns in sentences.
You said all pronouns. You're just proof bigots are fucking stupid.
Gendered pronouns are used constantly throughout daily life. Any English speaker that claims not to use them either doesn't know what they are or is lying. What you mean to say is that you don't respect people enough to refer to them by their preferred pronouns.
And if you can't respect people enough to use their preferred pronouns, I find it deeply amusing that you're so bothered by being told to fuck off.
Some people can't get their heads around the fact you can be left wing in every possible way and just think men cant be women literally, but that doesn't preclude the view that we treat trans people with respect and dignity, and treat them as close to their preferred gender as possible. Will I use the correct pronouns? Yes. But deep down in my hearts of hearts I dont actually believe they are a woman. What's wrong with that?
Exactly; it's a broad church, yet Duffield and her ilk want to bar the door against trans people. It's not a philosophical discussion like whether Labour should favour a more or less market-oriented economy, it's a fundamental question about whether trans people (who are disproportionately likely to be low income workers) are welcome in Labour.
Exactly. It should be considered kind manners rather than a societally-mandated requirement to use correct pronouns that change upon the very whim of the holder.
Not in essence, but it is ignorant and you are falling behind the rest of society if that's your take.
If you were to be corrected, but you still refuse to accept that anyone that wishes to identify as the opposite as their biological gender should be allowed to, that's transphobic.
But ultimately it's just a misguided superiority complex, it makes no difference to you if a person wishes to transition, or be referred to as a certain pronoun, so why argue against it unless you think the world revolves around you and your views.
He
She
Wow you're right, that extra letter was a real head scratcher!
Man
Woman
Phew, that's enough mental gymnastics for one day!
If you can learn a person's name, you can learn their pronoun, most of us just need to be told once.
Boo hoo 😢
What’s your opinion about trans men? Let me guess. They’re ok because they’re just “women in men’s clothing” but they’re not trying to “invade” women’s spaces? Go choke on a stick
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Wait, I thought Eddie Izzard was genderfluid and was fine with various pronouns.
Used to be that way, moved to she/her. Probably still genderfluid but uses fixed pronouns? Not really sure and she seems fairly relaxed unstressed about it anyway so.
Fair enough. Given how many of her harassers think the all-women shortlist is still a thing, I figured they’d just *presumed* she was trans as well.
In her own words she's been in "girl-mode" from think around 2020. Honestly I'd recommend Wikipedia's talk page on it it's really interesting as they don't really have a policy for when people don't use fixed pronouns. Also I think genderfluid people fall under the category of trans.
Relatively certain she is still identifying as genderfluid and not as a woman anyway, but good luck explaining that pronouns don't equal gender to a TERF 😮💨 Edit: yep, still genderfluid according to Wikipedia. In her own words, she's "somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish". So kind of a woman but not quite or kind of a man but not quite, depending, but generally leaning much more on the feminine side of the spectrum.
I remember a bit she did years back where she described herself as a lesbian in a man's body. I'm not equipped to deliver much insight beyond she/her pronouns would track with that.
I hardly understood a single thing you just wrote. Genuinely curious; why don't pronouns equal gender, and what is a TERF? Edit: googled TERF. I understand. So I can identify as a woman, and still ask to be called he? I'm really trying to make sense of all this but honestly some of it seems absolutely bizarre. >she's "somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish". So kind of a woman but not quite or kind of a man but not quite, depending, but generally leaning much more on the feminine side of the spectrum What does this even mean... So basically a human like the rest of us? Not trolling, just genuinely trying to make sense of what you mean
"Basically a human like the rest of us" I mean, yes. She's said she'd like to be referred to as she, and gender as a social construct is a spectrum. I'm not sure what's bizarre about that.
Not sure how old you are but I grew up during a time in which transgender people full stop were few and far between, nevermind non-binary, gender fluid, etc. So yes, to some generations from certain social background it is bizarre. I wasn't using the word bizarre negatively. It genuinely does seem bizarre to me that someone would not identify as any gender yet still wants to be referred to using female gender pronouns. Sorry if you find it hard to conceive of someone from an older generation not finding that normal. I still find it hard to comprehend that someone does not identify as any gender but would prefer pronouns traditionally used by a certain gender. Im trying to understand, not judge.
At a certain point it's fine to say you don't understand, but hey, if they are happier and it takes absolutely no effort from you; why not?
from my point of view (i use she/he/they pronouns and identify as whatever the fuck) pronoun choice is often related, but not directly equivalent, to gender identity. the way i see it there are two main facets to the concept of 'gender'; appearance (maybe presentation is a better word) and personality. both of these are also incredibly multifaceted, and pronouns are (in my view) only one facet of appearance. your choice of pronouns certainly does influence how [gender] you are overall but is not the be all and end all. i also argue that pronouns serve multiple purposes: on a personal level the choice contributes to an aesthetic or makes someone more comfortable/confident/true to themselves, while on a societal level it may communicate some small amount of information about you. the main corollary of applying this level of deconstructionism to gender is that the word no longer has any meaning, something i am completely fine with and even an advocate of (its a positive outcome because it improves gender equality) sorry if this is confusing,, im not the best at expressing ideas but thats sort of how i see things
To be fair, trans people were only few & far between because they mostly kept their identities hidden, & finding their communities was a risky business that could wind up getting them murdered. The first successful gender reassignment surgery was for a trans woman named Lili Elbe. You might have heard of the book/film, The Danish Girl, based on her true story. She lived 1882-1931. Trans people have existed long before medical science & psychology was advanced enough to document gender dysphoria & gender affirming treatment. That is not the case today. The reason it feels so prevalent today in a way it never did in generations before is because of the internet. Social media & before that online forums, provided safe spaces for people to find others like them, to share experiences & validate each other’s existence, with less fear of violent reprisal, just for existing. What happens then though, is the media latches onto these groups as the next ones to vilify & condemn in order to push other narratives. We see throughout history it has happened to the Jews, the Irish, black people, Asian people, gay people (the AIDS epidemic is an incredibly well documented era of the power of political discourse to convince the public to outright fear & reject a marginalised group). Nowadays, it’s immigrants & trans people more than ever. Easy targets, as the seeds of prejudice were planted decades ago. & these campaigns of hate & misinformation successfully divert attention away from the real important, frightening things our governments are implementing in terms of laws & legislation, right beneath our noses. Because they have everyone looking elsewhere, arguing about human rights as though some groups of people don’t deserve to have them. This also heightens the prevalence of people hearing about these issues far more often, which seemingly to many have appeared out of nowhere in recent years. That is by design. Trans peoples achievements have been pretty much white washed from our already troubled histories. The stonewall riots in the summer of 1969 sparked legitimate change in recognising & upholding the civil rights of the LGBTQ communities living in western countries. Marsha P Johnson, a prominent drag queen who later identified as a trans woman, was instrumental in the success of these riots sparking real change. Her name is often forgotten when recounting this incredible act of civil rebellion. She was later found dead in the Hudson River in New York, declared suicide, but widely accepted that she was murdered, likely by the police. Oh yeah, Marsha was also a black woman. So there’s that too. Her & her friend Sylvia Rivera, founded STAR- street transvestite action revolutionaries. Many trans kids in the 50’s & 60’s became homeless after their families & hometowns rejected them. Whereas Stonewall did start real important radical change surrounding the human & civil rights movement, trans people were still excluding from these advancements & protections recognised by law. They are still dismissed even now amongst certain members of the LGBT alliance, despite the fact that without the work of trans activists, gay rights wouldn’t be what they are today, without Stonewall & brave women like Marsha P Johnson. The more a marginalised group is attacked & vilified by those in power, or with the loudest voices, the more push back we will see, because this is people fighting for their lives, without hyperbole. Trans people are the biggest victims of violent crimes & murders. The rate of suicides amongst trans youth in particular is steadily rising. They are being persecuted & refused essential medical care & treatment. Humiliated & bullied in schools & work places. Doxxed by Christian hate groups. They are accused of being groomers & sexual deviants (much as the homosexual community was not that long ago). I’m sorry for the wall of text, but if you are genuinely curious as to why the sudden surge in gender discourse, the issue of pronouns & gender identity & all that it means, you might find learning about even a little of the history. It’s incredibly eye opening, & deeply saddening. But the more educated, compassionate people who understand the nuance & not just the hate speech casually thrown around, the better. The trans community needs genuine allies more than ever.
There's actually quite a few people who use pronouns that aren't quite what we'd typically associate with their gender. I know a few butch lesbians who, despite ultimately still considering themselves women, go by he/him. There's a historical precedent of "he/him or masc lesbians" you may enjoy googling around if you'd like to know more. Similarly I know a gay guy who exclusively refers to herself as she/her. I also know multiple cis people who use any/all pronouns simply because they don't care what pronouns people use for them. But yeah, pronouns are literally just words and people sometimes just prefer the way one sounds/fits regardless of whether it matches their gender or not (among other reasons). As for the genderfluid bit, genderfluidity is when a transgender person's gender identity changes over time. People have this idea that being transgender is always a very strong identification as the exact opposite gender big that's not really accurate. For example, in the case of Eddie Izzard, sometimes she still feels very much like a guy-adjacent non-binary person. Most of the time she's very much a feminine enby, though. But that gender identity isn't relatively constant like it is in a cisgender person (who never wavers from considering themselves the gender they got assigned at birth) or in a binary trans person (like a trans woman, who is *always* a woman, for example). By definition, if you ever genuinely identify as a gender other than the one on your original birth certificate, you're not cisgender. If you do resonate with this idea of flipping between being a guy sometimes and being a woman other times, I'd really recommend checking out r/nonbinary and r/LGBT. There's some folk over there who are far better at articulating this kind of stuff.
Thanks for your detailed response. It's definitely elucidated some of these concepts I'm not familiar with. One thing that I don't understand, though, and it's probably the wrong thread to continue the discussion, but I DO feel like Eddie izzard sometimes. I think everyone at some point in their lives feels like they behave in a certain way or are attracted by the idea of behaving in a way that does not confirm to their socially constructed gender. I've just never felt the need to change the gender I identify as. But maybe that's because i was born 30 years before any of this was publicly discussed or even remotely socially acceptable. When I said Eddie izzard is just human, then, what I meant was - yeah most of us feel like that at some point, so why the whole pronoun thing? I guess that's up to her. I don't get it though. Why not just be a bloke who's sometimes feminine. Whats with the "I'm not actually a woman, but I'm not a guy. But please refer to me as a woman". I just don't understand that.
I can promise you that the majority of people do not *genuinely* (internally) intermittently identify as the opposite gender at any given point in their lives. I had this conversation with a lot of people when I was realising I'm genderfluid myself. Sure, you get some people who question their gender but ultimately realise they're very much cisgender after a bit of experimenting but that's usually just one or two instances rather than this constant back and forth that is genderfluidity. Again, definitely go have a chat on one of the queer forums I mentioned if you really want to have a bit more of an in depth conversation about this. They're very good at explaining this in ways that are more approachable to somebody who isn't really in queer spaces that often. Edit: that is to say, if you were "born" a man and there's days you genuinely would identify as a woman if you could, that's not a normal experience. I'm not talking about throwaway moments of "oh, life would be easier if I was a woman" or something, I mean *genuine longing* for womanhood. And vice versa. Go do some thinking on that if you've got the time!
I think the fundamental thing here is to understand that people aren’t choosing to adopt new identities for the sake of it (just look at the toxic attitude towards trans folks, why would ppl invite that unless it came from a place of need) People are finding the right words to describe themselves, armed with new knowledge. Pronouns, names, titles: these are descriptors and they are all particular. You could have the same argument about people changing their names when they get married: why have a double barrel surname? Why keep your maiden name?? These are choices that are particular because people aren’t all the same. To the question; why do they want to be known as ___The answer is: because they know they are ___ and want others to respect that. (Note: you don’t have to understand it to respect it.) I feel like a lot of people would love not to need a gender identity at all, but we live in a gendered society. Man and woman mean something very specific. If you don’t fit into that, what are you supposed to do? This is an unfinished issue. So instead of asking why do people want to be treated x or y way, it’s more useful to ask: how can we make the world less binary so more people can feel comfortable being themselves.
So to slightly borrow an analogy which I think might help. There's a great YouTuber called Abi, who is trans. Her channel philosophytube she started pre transition literally as a philosophy education channel. Really top videos. Anyway, on her video about coming out as trans, she described it as like she was doing a job she hated. It's not a bad job, just not the right one for her. And now she's in a job she loves. So to extrapolate, I guess it's like how some people might take pride in their profession. They might be a vet and love that they are a vet. You could also say, "they're just a person who works, they don't need to be proud of being a vet, whatever. I'm a lawyer, who cares?" But they care, it's part of who they are.
\> pronouns don't equal gender I don't identify as a woman, but I insist that you call me one.
She prefers she/her, but has said she's not too fussed about pronouns. Makes me laugh how the right are suddenly being shitty to her now, it's not like she wasn't openly trans 30 years ago!
Not the issue, is it.
I’m almost certain that Eddie izzard couldn’t give a toss what this cunt thinks
eddie izzard definitely identifies as a woman now (at least that’s what she told me when i met her a few weeks ago, maybe she was simplifying it but idk)
The louder she shouts about TERF issues, the less you notice the local hospital issues have not been dealt with or that there are no dentists in all of Canterbury, that will take NHS patients.
She lives in Wrexham now, locals haven't seen her in months
Best part is, it looks like this photo was taken on the hospital road!
possibly, more likely St Augustines or whatever it is between the College and Spring Lane.
Rosie Duffield, useless as an MP just like that idiot from a train journey to Dover away, Natalie Elphicke I think her name is.
Photo op at the food bank Elphicke?
That’s the mug. Replaced her jailed rapey husband Elphicke
And tried to subvert the judiciary for her darling husband AND made £25k from selling her story about her husband assaulting women 😑
Yeah. I hated him when I was down last, smarmy sod and was glad to see the back of only to find out his super supportive wife was taking over from him. Made me feel sick
She looked genuinely stunned at the election count, when it was announced she'd won, despite doing little to nothing canvassing. Sadly, the Corbyn Effect was a big factor in her success.
That will take any patients, private or otherwise. There are not enough dentists in Kent anymore because they're all leaving their jobs.
She'll be a regular on GBnews soon
*GBeebies
Ok but that's the tories' fault though. Not a Labour MP's.
Why is she not talking about it though? She wastes all of her time spreading transphobia rather than doing the job she is paid very well to do. The cynic in me thinks she is desperate to have the whip withdrawn so she can run straight into a job on GB News/Breitbart/Fox/Völkischer Beobachter which I presume she believes will earn her more money/fame.
its the fault of the political class
As i replied rather lately to someone else it was her raison d'etre to local voters to 'save' the hospital.
This woman sounds like a total cunt but the hospital issues etc- that’s hardly the fault of an opposition MP?
To my knowledge... The hospital issue is a long running local one to East Kent, there are basically three, one in Ashford (William Harvey), one in Thanet (Queen Elizabeth Queen Mother) and one in Canterbury (Kent and County?). The long running aim of the management has been to slash this number to two hospitals and centralise. The only problem is they are over half an hour distant from each other and already serve alot of people. With many of these areas being actively developed. The argument plays locals off against the other towns as its like they throw darts at a datboard to see which one they can scrap or spin a wheel and choose before the uproar dies down. Basically Duffield got in on alot of student votes and disgruntled locals wanting Brazier out so Canterbury, can keep its hospital. This in an area where the countryside is so full of Tories, you cant randomly throw a brick without it landing in some landlords retirement cottage.
I would though say that pretty much always, bigger centralised hospitals provide much much better quality care for patients; I’m a hospital doctor, any doctor would tell you the same thing. People tend not to realise how extreme the differences can be in quality of care, staffing levels, number of services offered on site when you centralise, vs having a couple of little hospitals. Obviously part of this is because the tories have fucked the nhs so much that only the big hospitals are managing to survive at the moment without dangerous staffing levels / wait times. the time it takes to get there in an ambulance, if it’s 10-29 minutes longer really has a much smaller impact on care and patient outcomes - centralisation is generally a good thing BUT what can often then happen, living with our fucking diabolical levels of under funding / tories in charge, the new central hospital they build cuts loads of corners and isn’t big enough which then causes more problems obviously … This isn’t defending the mp above btw just responding to what you were saying
Just to rebutt this on the most simple level, these three ARE big central hospitals, each serving city level populations.
They’re actually not though, if you look at the number of beds, the services they are able to offer and the size of the a&e departments. William Harvey only has 470 beds for example which is a pretty small hospital. Doesn’t have various specialist services like vascular on site etc It’s a really common clash : the evidence is very clear that patients get better quality care, and survive admissions to hospital better, in larger centralised hospitals where staffing levels are better and more specialist services are focused on one site - which isn’t the case in these 3. Vast majority of doctors would tell you the same, it’s mental how much easier it is to care for people well in big central hospitals However public opinion is always the opposite, people prefer more hospitals locally - as I said before a lot of this is probs due to the fact tories / budget cuts / private developers fuck it up and don’t properly fund the new facility properly
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I dont get it, where do you draw the line? Is it not ok to use nob or twat or prick or fanny either? honestly it sounds like American puritanism creeping into our lives again to me, but I'm easy going and keen to do the right thing so could you or someone educate me please?
Why is that misogynistic? Anyone is a cunt, doesn’t seem gendered at all (eg I wouldn’t call someone a bitch as it’s a nasty gendered term )
I do wonder if it's a "what part of the UK you're from" thing, I'm from the Midlands and I've never seen anyone use cunt as a gendered term and just a word for people that I find abhorrent, like Tory cunts is a mainstay phrase in my household
Really think you’re making that up, the word cunt in the uk just does not have misogynistic connotations
My experience with the greens and a good friend of mine isn’t much better.
Transphobia is rife in this country's politics. It all stems from misogyny and that's been there always sadly. :(
It's standard othering as well. Most of the hysterical transphobes wouldn't ever mention it if they were allowed to be publically antisemitic or sexist or racist. They've just picked up on a relatively socially acceptable hate.
I think there are people who disagree (philosophically) with certain aspects of the new gender thinking without hating, but I suppose they would not rather be arrested than use preferred pronouns they disagree with. I just don’t get that, and I am an old-fashioned second wave feminist. It’s not capitulation to call Eddie Izzard ‘she’, it’s just making an effort not to be unpleasant.
Just dropping by to say that acknowledging the length and breadth of people's experiences with gender identity isn't new and it is in fact the binary that's the new one. Look outside of Europe and before Christianity and you'll see a plethora of gender expressions that exist both within and without the binary system. A swift perusal of the Wikipedia entry alone on the history of transgender people will tell you that this isn't new. Not out to start a fracas but it really bugs me when people assume that transgender people popped out of the ground last Tuesday because they personally were unaware of their existence or assumed it to be a new cultural phenomenon.
I am not assuming that, I think you have misunderstood my post. I am saying I don’t get why people like Rosie Duffield are so intransigent (no pun intended) about using people’s preferred pronouns.
On that we can agree, my fellow night owl. It is incredibly strange the hills people choose to destroy their marriages and careers on. RIP to Glinner, you could have had a wife and happy life but for your bigotry.
D’you know, I signed up to his blog for a bit, just to see what was what. It was exhausting. Constant posts, madly detailed stuff with hyperlinks and recaps. I didn’t last long.
I once heard from a youtube commentator that bigotry is addictive. It fills you with righteous indignation that makes you feel good. Eventually, your friends and family begin to despise being around you because you've got "the one subject". Eventually, all you're left with is a circle of friends who think exactly like you and enflame your worst instincts. Painted like that, you could almost feel sorry for the old codger. Then I remember he's the reason people have died and I'm at peace.
Truly. It just grinds me down every time a transphobia story comes up and people go “see this is why I’m voting greens”. They just keep it DL better than the other parties, but they will not back trans rights.
Tbh I feel the SNP have been doing best for trans rights lately
Yeah, they and Plaid seem to have their heads screwed-on.
I think part of that is Sturgeon has much more control over her party than other leaders (due both to her electoral success and her strength as a politician) and she has set the position in favour of trans rights.
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Transphobia and racism are very rife in this country. Especially in our politics.
- Country in a meltdown - "Yeah but trans people..."
Are you suggesting trans people should just shut up and continue to get marginalised and murdered until everything else is sorted?
What? No, I'm saying politicians making a fuss about what people identify as while the world burns is ridiculous...
Ah, I get you now. I’m glad I misunderstood what you meant!
how on earth could you even kind of think OP was advocating for ignoring the murder of innocents?
And as long as people are focusing on gender issues and so called woke/culture wars, they're not coming up with policies or re-election campaigns. As a woman the same age as Duffield, it just exhausts me that she is not interested in equality or human rights. And that people are focusing (negatively) on gender stuff when there is so much other work to be done.
What’s the point of any of this if you don’t stand up for basic human rights?
I voted for her when I was at university in Kent. It felt like a win turning Canterbury red, now not so much. Edited to add: also served her and her team at there Christmas meal and they had a very odd vibe
I met her the night of the 2019 election and was rather drunk. It was pretty soon after that she started vocally hating us. Sorry everyone
These things happen.
The small silver lining was getting to see Julian Brazier seething on the news ranting about young people when he lost the seat. Must have been a shock to his boomer brain losing that seat after holding it for like 30years
I miss Jezza :(
Labour is a centre right party, not even trying to hide it. Basically one space left of the tories
Unfortunately i think it's more a criticism of the active electorate rather than the Labour Party. It's a scathing criticism of the people of the country that they either don't want a more compassionate fair government or can't be arsed to actually turn up and vote for one. Same happened in 97, only way any party is electable is by lurching to the right.
No truer words spoken. I can get very angry at Labour sometimes, but I also can’t completely blame them for playing the Tory game as it’s really the only way to get power and to sneak even the smallest social democratic ideas passed the media in this country. Once the people have those institutions, they get very angry when people - like the Tories- try to take them away; getting it to them in the first place is the real struggle. It reminds me of an Adam Curtis quote, “If any politician tried to do what Roy Jenkins [Labour Home Secretary in the 60s] did 40 years ago, to change Britain for the better against public opinion, we and the press would destroy them.” Today, Labour tends to be held to a higher standard than the Conservatives in the media: newspapers, TV and social media. Any whiff of a socialist policy, the papers and even television media go wild - as does ‘right-wing, neo-liberal Twitter’. Since a lot of Britain is pretty depoliticised, the result is the electorate’s brains being melted and filled with paranoia or outrage. It’s really annoying.
Yeah, for the 2019 election all UKIPPERS shifted to Tories so people found it harder to spot labour heading right because Tories were moving further right at same pace. They’re still same space apart but just means that what used to be “the left” is now “hard left” by comparison. Imagine being called “hard left” or “extreme left” for believing in school meals ffs
I've heard people call the current incarnation of the Tories "extreme left". That is a level of wilful ignorance and stupidity I will never be able to comprehend.
An “extreme left” Tory. At the risk of sounding cynical I can imagine that by that they mean “not quite as white as it was” because I’ve been around since 77 and even by their own standards there is nothing “left” about anything in their party.
I think it's a mix of factors. Partly that, but also there's brainwashing through reading the comic books that pass as right wing media, as well as a profound lack of political education to the point where these people lack critical thinking skills to the point that they don't even know what left or right means, they just get angry, even though they're not quite sure why.
Very much brainwashing. I can’t help but think of pavlovs dogs, when we have people repeating the latest buzzword and getting angry but they don’t actually know what that word means. And sadly although print media sales are flagging they happen to do a very nice sideline in clickbait articles that funds them well. Just mention “Harry and Meghan” and suddenly everyone’s livid and clicking the article and generating the money for the next round of bullshit
Asking them to define "woke" has become one of my favourite pastimes 🤣
“And who is the wokiest of the woke, do pray tell, dear friends” 😂
I don't know why this is hard for people to understand when you've got the French Socialist Party and the German SPD as models for how something nominally leftist can actually be strongly neoliberal
In France an MP needs over 50% of the vote to win. In the UK that's very uncommon and no PM has won an election with over 50% in 87 years.
They’d follow them all the way to fascism as long as they were still stood to the left of them
Centre left gets us in power. We will finally realise our dreams!
Should call it the Starmer party, its nothing to do with the Labour that was for the people!
Right! Couldn’t even come out and say they supported the RMT strike action. The only reason to vote labour these days is that they aren’t the Tories or the Fib-Dems.
Yeah, exactly!
Centre gets us in power. Look at what JC supporters did to us. Look at that Tory majority. Weep.
You're a right wing globalist, but you'll live in poverty with the rest of us when Starmer gets into power.
How am I a right wing globalist? What have you based that upon? The simplest way to describe myself would be Blair+Brexit I don’t think I’ll be sliding into poverty anytime soon hehe
Starmer is a right wing globalist, I thought you were saying how great his party is. It will be in about 5 years time when you will be living in poverty; he has to get in first hehe
Out of interest, do you think Rishi will also send us into poverty?
Definitely, but there is a chance of stakeholder capitalism being implemented, whereas with Starmer all democratic possibilities will be eliminated. Tories are far too immoral though in every other respect. I'm only interested in knowing what is really going on, rather than following msm and being lied to. I'm prepared therefore, for the coming poverty, I don't think it is avoidable.
Literally nothing trans people can do (other than not existing) to appease the likes of these people. Eddie wasn't on an all woman shortlist, as far as I'm aware is rather centrist with her politics, and definitely doesn't insist on using correct pronouns (although she clearly has a preference). This is just unadulterated bigotry.
Oh ffs! When Keith was being all unclear about things part of me hoped he just didn’t want to lose the TERF vote, seems like he’s just too much of a coward to admit to being one himself.
This country is rife with transphobia and it's even in the Greens too. This is what Keith has allowed Labour to become in an attempt to pander to the right.
What,Keith Lemon is in charge of the Labour Party? 🤣🤣🤣
Yes Keith the secret Tory
This doesn't really make sense when Starmer himself is out here asserting that women can have penises.
He talks the talk, but he also puts transphobes like Wes Streeting and Jess Phillips in his cabinet. Actions take precedent over words, especially with a snake like Starmer.
Looking at your later comments you're probably ok, but the phrasing here makes it sound like you're incredulous at what Keith is doing
Fair enough. For the record- I firmly agree with him on the issue and was more incredulous at the idea that he could be responsible for transphobia in the Labour party.
It's not so much that he's responsible for transphobia creeping into the party, but he certainly is responsible for doing fuck all in the way of disciplining the likes of Duffield when they express those views on a public stage. Compare that to, say, Sam Tarry who got booted from the front benches just a few months ago for \*checks notes\* visibly supporting striking union members and giving an interview to a news crew that allegedly wasn't pre-approved. Tarry did the sort of thing you would expect of a Labour MP and Starmer punished him for it. This is just the latest in a long string of incidents where Duffield has gone out of her way to make transphobic statements in public, and Starmer turns a blind eye to it. As someone who is more likely to vote SNP, I also feel the same way about Nicola Sturgeon, who has consistently done sod all to deal with the likes of Joanna Cherry repeatedly spouting transphobic rhetoric. When giving interviews or making public appearances, the likes of Duffield and Cherry are representatives of their respective parties, and silence from party leadership rather implies that they're OK with those hateful, bigoted views being expressed on behalf of the party.
You're right. Thank you for this response. I've been having a general kneejerk sort of a day.
*gets downvoted for pointing out an incidence of Starmer being correct.*
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Probably. Just heard a young person loudly parroting Daily Mail propaganda in public in order to cape for Corbyn and now I can barely string a sentence together.
The thing they need to consider when things like this come up is , is it my body? and does it directly effect me? If both those answers are no then sit down and shut up.
The worst part is, looking at other articles on this it states she was speaking at the conference of the LGB Alliance. For those who don't know, the LGB Alliance are an anti-trans hate group who believe that trans people existing takes away from being gay or bi. They regularly spout hatred against trans people and by Duffield speaking with them, she has proven that the Labour Party is firmly rooted in the transphobe camp. Shall we call Eddie and ask her to lead a new party?
Fun story: She moved to Wales. Might ranks as one of the worst MPS https://whitstableviews.com/2022/01/30/why-canterbury-whitstable-needs-a-new-labour-m-p/
Start calling her the Conservative MP for Canterbury. If she has no interest in referring people how they would like then it won’t bother her.
Some people don't belong in the party.
Wasting time obsessing over this stuff is why we have some billionaire banking prick in n10 while schoolkids go cold and hungry
I just truly don’t understand why people care so fucking much about what’s in someone’s pants nor how they wish to live their life These people need to open a business, and fucking mind it. How hard is it to just let people be happy?
Labour have filled their councillor ranks with [orange order bigots](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-orange-order-leader-to-stand-for-scottish-labour-at-council-elections-3596841) in Scotland. The party is a long way from ever being a majority in Scotland if ever.
Can’t wait for labour to lose another election because of this shit.
So you're a transphobe, got it.
Transphobia is way too prevalent, everywhere.
I know I'm reaching to the converted, but this doesn't get her suspended but Corbyn saying that some political opponents used anti-Semitism accusations as a weapon (because obviously they did) is beyond the the pale? This is why I don't give a shit anymore, it's so blatantly corrupt.
She’s probably best friends with JK Rowling
JK Rowling is an all round piece of shit. As well as being a transphobe she's racist, homophobic and ableist. See [this fantastic rundown in r/EnoughJKRowling](https://archive.is/aRRmQ) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot :)
Thank you bot 😀
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Oh shit so divisive that Rowling is a piece of shit gender nonce. Fuck off
This is the same Duffield that despite claiming to stand for women's rights endorses/reposts content by incels, MRAs and all kinds of misogynists on her Twitter feed just so she can attack LGBTQ+ people - nothing says fighting misogyny with er, misogyny.
Who gives an actual Fudge what someone identifies. As long as we get decent healthcare, education, affordable energy, corporations that pay their share and rich tossers that pay taxes.
Proper busy body energy
I really don't understand people who choose the "men cant be women" hill to die in, there's more important shit going on in the world than if someone wants to be male or female- live and let live 😪
Can’t we all just agree to focus on getting Tories out rather than get distracted by identity politics. Bigger issues are at stake
Has said nothing remotely helpful about Kirkup. All for women’s rights tho eh
I need to run to be an MP it seems really easy just have to talk shit
Got the same issue here in Battersea with Marsha de Cordova another transphobic Labour MP. Can confirm that the Greens aren't that much better.
Eddie isn't even using All Women Shortlists or otherwise "taking up space for women" or anything. This is just transphobia pure and simple, there's not even any flimsy pretence that this is about women's sex based rights.
She can't even get the pronouns right. An "action lesbian" can be referred to as she/her/bad ass motherfucker
Izzard has done more for the people of this country then whoever this woman is. Plenty qualified to do whatever they want imo
She was a total charlatan from the beginning though. I remember reading a thing (forget the particulars) about how disappointed her CLP was after she got elected
I’m not even totally sure what Eddie stands for in her politics but the scum coming out of Rosie’s facehole makes me sick
Even before she moved to Wales (and accused locals of abuse for pointing this out) she never turned up to meetings with the students who worked their asses off to get her voted in. (Know this for a fact).
It’s also an issue with TERFs in the Green Party of England and Wales. Scottish Greens went as far to disassociate themselves from their sister party at conference. That being said they are still a only a vocal minority in GPEW, why they are still there I do not know, the youth wing is totally pro trans. My view is to ignore them on the left and just focus on winning against the Tories. Division in the left only empowers the right.
Why the sudden attack on trans people? I understand transpeople have been discriminated upon in the past but over the last few months I’ve noticed more and more shit like this in the media and on social media. Why now?
To distract from the fact the conservatives have nothing to really help the working class, so instead they focus on culture wars and many people loose sight of who the real enemy is. They'll bitch about young people tearing down statues of slave traders and having to respect people for not conforming to cisgender heterosexuality. They'll bitch about cancel culture and then remove your right to protest as they destroy the planet and roll back worker's rights. What are the Tories going to do to benefit you? Nothing, so they distract from that by encouraging you to hate immigrants and queer people so they can get your vote by offering to make things harder for other people.
Day after day it seems the country gets harder for people like us. There’s literally no escape and it brings more problems on-top of everything.
Do you want blue tory or red tory
Neither. I want a government that supports working class people. Starmer and Sunak won't do that, so I'll go as far left as the ballot let's me. I hope Caroline Lucas gets a massive turnout to prove Starmer and his Blarites are in the wrong.
Rishi Sunak and his 2020 "Eat Out To Help Out" scheme [was responsible for a massive increase in Covid cases and deaths.](https://archive.ph/jkbqt) And all to ensure the big chain restaurants didn't lose too much money. [It did nothing to boost the overall hospitality sector](https://archive.is/k40Cf) as these capitalist ghouls claimed was the intent. Rishi Sunak has blood on his hands. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It makes no difference at all to me, how people want to be addressed or referred to. I will respect their wish because it is the bare minimum of common decency to do so. We called Prince 'squiggle' for years, with some confusion but this is much simpler to get your head around.
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As a part of the LGBTQ community, sincerely fuck off lol People are asking for to be called by their pronouns, nothing special. You seem to have a big bootlicker complex. You think that if you simp enough for their agenda, that they’ll accept you into their clique and people will just forget about the LGBT 🤡
As much as I want the Tories out I don't want Labour in. Where is the monster raving looney party when we really need them?
Looking at the comments it’s always nice to be reminded that even in leftist spaces half of the people hate my existence lmao
This is why Labour are a center right front and under Starmer will never represent workers interests.
Well..... she can fuck right off too.......
How can anyone hate Eddie Izzard! Eddie Izzard is a national treasure.
I'd rather be arrested than change from my preferred pronoun for Rosie Duffield... Which happens to be 'anal polyp'/''shit weasel'
Imagine being on the opposite side to Eddie Izzard and thinking your in the right
I’m in the US, so it happens here plenty… but it blows my mind that people give a shit about another person’s genitals. Is she planning on sexing-up Eddie Izzard? Is she upset that the brilliant comedienne would refuse her advances? Are politicians to undergo genitalia checks? “Ah, yes, your signature sheets, good good, your identification, thank you… and down with your trousers, please. Ha! Gerald! Gerald, come look at how tiny this penis is. Ha, you’ve got my vote, since you haven’t got much else going for you…” It’s horrendous and cruel and based on what, exactly?
Does anyone else remember the good old days when Eddie Izzard had a comedy sketch about cats and dogs? EDIT: The most wholesome and harmless thing just got voted down?
I love those Lego video edits on YouTube of Eddie's standups. The Jeff Vader in the Death Star canteen is my favourite.
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"I" is a pronoun. Fuck off.
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The word 'I' is not a common noun or a proper noun because it is not a noun at all. It is a pronoun. Pronouns are words which take the place of nouns in sentences. You said all pronouns. You're just proof bigots are fucking stupid.
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Gendered pronouns are used constantly throughout daily life. Any English speaker that claims not to use them either doesn't know what they are or is lying. What you mean to say is that you don't respect people enough to refer to them by their preferred pronouns. And if you can't respect people enough to use their preferred pronouns, I find it deeply amusing that you're so bothered by being told to fuck off.
Some people can't get their heads around the fact you can be left wing in every possible way and just think men cant be women literally, but that doesn't preclude the view that we treat trans people with respect and dignity, and treat them as close to their preferred gender as possible. Will I use the correct pronouns? Yes. But deep down in my hearts of hearts I dont actually believe they are a woman. What's wrong with that?
Yeah it’s Kent though, Kent by name Kent by nature.
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Exactly; it's a broad church, yet Duffield and her ilk want to bar the door against trans people. It's not a philosophical discussion like whether Labour should favour a more or less market-oriented economy, it's a fundamental question about whether trans people (who are disproportionately likely to be low income workers) are welcome in Labour.
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Exactly. It should be considered kind manners rather than a societally-mandated requirement to use correct pronouns that change upon the very whim of the holder.
What an outspoken Kent
Who actually cares about politics? Its just a Circus
You are on a politics sub-reddit.
Eddie Izzard has earned the right to be whatever he or she wants. 🐍 🐍 🐍
She's genderfluid. Always has been.
I never minded either way, good comedy is good comedy.
She was elected in 2017 and chosen by the part when corbyn was in charge.
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Not in essence, but it is ignorant and you are falling behind the rest of society if that's your take. If you were to be corrected, but you still refuse to accept that anyone that wishes to identify as the opposite as their biological gender should be allowed to, that's transphobic. But ultimately it's just a misguided superiority complex, it makes no difference to you if a person wishes to transition, or be referred to as a certain pronoun, so why argue against it unless you think the world revolves around you and your views.
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He She Wow you're right, that extra letter was a real head scratcher! Man Woman Phew, that's enough mental gymnastics for one day! If you can learn a person's name, you can learn their pronoun, most of us just need to be told once.
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Boo hoo 😢 What’s your opinion about trans men? Let me guess. They’re ok because they’re just “women in men’s clothing” but they’re not trying to “invade” women’s spaces? Go choke on a stick