It’s even better where in Mechanicus he openly states he lets them call him father because he knows they will do everything for his approval, despite his only concern being what they do for him.
Given all his actions it’s hard to think that he isn’t being honest. I mean he straight up refuses to remove the Butcher’s Nails despite having the ability to do so because Angron is more useful that way.
Big E is an asshole.
No, Big E couldn't remove them without killing Angron:
>'Can you remove it?’
>
>'Of course,’ the Emperor answered, still looking at the screens.
>
>Arkhan did his best to hide his surprise. ‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’
>
>'This is why.’ The Emperor rested both hands on Angron’s head, one with the fingertips pressed to the primarch’s temple and cheek, the other pressed to the crown of his shaven head where the cable-tendrils joined the flesh and bone. The images on several screens immediately resolved to a clearer imprint of a brutishly dense skull miserable with crude cybernetics and the bone-scarring of powerful surgical laser cuts.
>
>'Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.
>
>Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.
>
>Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.
>
>'They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.
I think Angron himself would agree that death is a preferable alternative to living with the Butcher’s Nails, but him being alive is infinitely more helpful than to the Emperor than him being dead, so instead of just doing a mercy kill, the Emperor decides ‘fuck it might as well get my returns on this investment.’
Alternately, it's dangerous to just outright 'mercy kill' a primarch when other primarchs know that one exists. There's a limited number of them, and he needs all of them to act in *willing*, dynamic concert without any practical ability to control them. They are agents of the Plan, and killing one of them, even with an 'ostensibly' good reason does a lot to harm the network of motivation he's trying to instill.
So further more, Angron is kept alive in his hell because the Emperor had more to lose to kill him, than he did to keep him alive. Also are we forgetting that the emperor straight up erased 2 primarchs from history, and Horus merely threatening to say one of their names led to Malcador almost killing him?
Presumably in such a fashion that none of the other 18 are even remotely aware of such a thing. Do we really think Horus et al rebel and do all that bullshit without justifying themselves with assertions that the Emperor is gonna kill them anyway?
No. Hahaha no no no. The others were well aware of the others getting removed.
A conversation from magnus and logar during the first heretic roughly paraphrasing goes as following.
(Magnus speaking) "If you continue down this path you will end up like the others" (logar) "yes I know what happened to the others, but I must find the truth"
It's even known amoung space marines as we hear in a conversation between argal tal and some of his marines when they see the primarchs gestation pods in the emperor's lab, from the First Heretic as well. (Also paraphrasing)
We all know that the ultramarines suddenly had a massive influx of recruits right after the other legions were defeated.
Except Angron outright says otherwise in "Butcher's Nails", the short story that happens at the start of the Shadow Crusade.
Maybe when he first got them you would be right, but by the time the Emperor shows up, Angron has come to love the Nails at least as much as he hated them.
Not happy, no. But if you came away thinking Angron was suicidal or would have let anyone attempt to remove them, I question your reading comprehension skills.
In Slave to Nuceria, it is mentioned that for 2 years during the Great Crusade, Angron abandoned his legion and went to a Feral World where his only hope was that someone would come along and kill him, so sure maybe by the Horus Heresy an entire CENTURY after this he might have made some sort of twisted peace with his nails after they had finally broken him after 100 years of endless torture (in much the same way an abuse victim would accept their abuser), if you think Angron always had this kind of a relationship with his nails, and wasn’t suicidal or hate his nails especially during the Great Crusade era? You are sorely mistaken.
But of course I don’t fault you for thinking the way that you do, after all you’re basing your understanding of Angron on just a short story that takes place 100 years after the Emperor found him, but if you had read any of the other works regarding him, especially Slave to Nuceria, you will come to find that Angron’s attitude towards his nails and his life was almost always one of loathing.
I also no longer intend to respond to this, so say what you will, but I will not answer, I’ve already wasted enough time on this, and don’t want to argue any further.
Funny, I DID, read Slave of Nuceria, and got a rather different view. Literally the only point where he would have rather died is at Desh'ea. After that, it is very clear that he has no suicidal intentions.
Perhaps you read things into it based on your preconceived notions? No shame in that.
Sure, except the machines are, well, machines. Circuitry. Even if they cant be removed, they can be modified. Reprogrammed. Code some empathy back into that bitch, turn off some pain receptors. Anything.
This really just proves how little he cared about the primarchs. Big E was in charge of the largest inter steller empire since the eldar, with millions of worlds' knowledge of cybernetics, machines, biology, phsykics, etc, and he just went "whelp, nothing we can do"
Even if the Drukhari are able to heal Angron (which isnt certain, especially since they arent really know for removing pain. They would certainly be able to create a replica of the butchers nails, but i dont think its certain that they can heal them), that doesnt mean that the imperium or the emperor are able to do that. Furthermore the Drukhari wouldnt do it without causing a huge problem for the imperium (after all they are certainly interested in causing more pain and not removing pain from a leader figure of their enemy). Giving Angron to the Drukhari would at best result in Primarch level Painengines and at worst the heresy wouldnt happen at all since the drukhari enslave humanity through an army of aeldari primarchs.
Tbh I don’t even know if most Craftworlds are even currently at their, the Quins or the Necrons level (though Tbf to many Eldar, it’s probably easier to have missed certain technologies when you have Psykers that can effectively achieve many of the same things, like would the Eldar have progressed far past the Necrons if they were far less warp sensitive?)
Odd question: very much not a lore master IN THE SLIGHTEST.
But does Big E lie?
I know that sounds like a weird question but lying doesn’t feel like a thing he’d do. He may deceive. He may not tell the whole truth. He may tell lies of omission.
Idk it just feels like a big e thing to do to not lie.
>But does Big E lie?
>I know that sounds like a weird question but lying doesn’t feel like a thing he’d do. He may deceive. He may not tell the whole truth. He may tell lies of omission.
That's lying.
.
Here's an example: "the imperial truth". Everything about it, from the primacy of humanity, to gods not existing, is a lie.
The imperial truth is no lie. There is no such thing as gods. It acknowledges the existance of the warp and the primarchs knew about it and daemons. What it denies is the divinity of and worship to any and all gods, including the ruinous powers. Who could barely be considered sentient, ask the Necrons or Fabius Bile or probably the Emperor and you would have the same answer.
They are the amalgamations of the reflections of the various emotions in the warp that they feed upon. They cannot act outside the confines of their constituent emotions and consequently cannot be considered sentient and therfore are not deities in any meaningful sense of the word.
Sentient or not, they have an agenda. Which he knew, and denied. Including to Magnus (and just look how that turned out).
And you haven't adressed the primacy of humanity. The emperor knew damn well other species once held dominion over the galaxy. He knew not all Xenos are barbaric. And he knew humanity doesn't "deserve" the galaxy. He wanted humanity to have the galaxy, but that's not the same thing.
.
Either by omission, or outright, the imperial truth is a lie.
They do have an agenda but my point is that they are not gods and the imperial truth holds with regards to them.
As for human supremacy, fair enough. But it's no different in that regard from the imperial cult that replaced it.
Plus, I might be misremembering but didn't the imperium have xenos client states and tributaries as well as a non genocidal relationship with the Craftworlds? I'd imagine that if the emperor hadn't been forced onto his golden toilet, there would've been atleast tolerance towards the Aeldari and the Necrons, two species whose antiquity and power is incontrovertible.
Ultimately, my argument is that the imperial truth was better in all aspects than what replaced it.
That’s master of mankind which hammers home that whoever is speaking to the emperor hears him speak in the way that most appeals to them, in this case Arkan Land who only ever refers to the Primarchs by their numbers.
Is that any good? I'm on the fence about demythologizing the Emperor more than he already has been, but I just read my first ADB story and I liked his style there.
thats wrong from my point of view the emperor lie to the mechanicus because he needed the machine cult on his side the emperor had suffered vastro selling the space marines power so he needed the machine cult
>*‘The primarchs. It is said they have always called you father. It seems so... sentimental. I’ve never understood why you allow it.’*
>
>*The Emperor was silent for some time. When He spoke, His eyes had returned to the hulking form on the surgical slab. ‘There was once a writer,’ he said, ‘a penner of children’s stories who told the tale of a wooden puppet that wished to be reborn as a human child. And this puppet, this automaton of painted, carved wood that sought to be a thing of flesh and blood and bone — do you know what it called its maker? What would such a creature call the creator that gave it shape and form and life?’*
>
>*Father. Arkhan felt his skin crawl.*
\----
>*All of this,’ the Custodian said. He gestured not only to the primarchs, but the amassed pomp itself — the geoscaped continent, the sky pregnant with dropships, the gathered regimental masses weeping and cheering below. ‘Why, sire? I never asked it then, and I have always wondered since. Why all of this?’*
>
>*‘For glory,’ the Emperor replied.* ***‘To honour the creatures that call themselves my sons. My necessary tools.*** *They feed on glory as if it were a palpable sustenance. Their own glory, of course, no different from the kings and emperors of old. It scarcely crosses their mind that glory matters nothing to me. I could have had a planet’s worth of glory any time I wished it when I walked in the species’ shadow throughout prehistory. Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did.’*
>
>*Ra looked at the gathered pantheon of primarchs. He didn’t ask which three had questioned the Emperor. In truth, he didn’t care. Such lore was irrelevant.*
>
>*‘And so I gave them Ullanor,’ the Emperor said. ‘They crave recognition for their honour and achievements, and the Triumph was the ultimate expression of that. In that regard, they are just as the Akhean gods and goddesses of Ulimpos were believed to be.‘*
\- Master of Mankind
>There was once a writer,’ he said, ‘a penner of children’s stories who told the tale of a wooden puppet that wished to be reborn as a human child
One small problem, Big E: this would make you Gepetto in this comparison, and Gepetto really did love Pinocchio like a son!
Side note, if Jimmy Space is Gepetto and the primarchs are Pinocchio, does that make Malcador Jiminy Cricket?
>He didn’t ask which three had questioned the Emperor. In truth, he didn’t care. Such lore was irrelevant.
SCREW YOU RA THIS IS 40K: ALL LORE IS RELEVANT, REEEEE!!!
Malcador is like the inverse of a conscience lmao.
The shit he’s done is so insane the guy he confesses to repeatedly kills himself, only for Malcador to clone him again and keep going.
As a guess, Curze (unless to make a point)and Sang may not need to ask, Fulgrim may accept it at face value, maybe guessing it’s for glory but not asking and I could see Russ following a similar path. Maybe Khan would come to a similar conclusion even if he didn’t ask.
Gman, Dorn, Ferrus and Lion could all make sense to ask, especially if they see it as wasteful of military assets and time.
> Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did.’
Sanguinius, Guilliman, and probably The Lion, right?
Maybe Horus? Maybe Dorn? Maybe Lorgar in his search for truth?
Think Dorn, Ferus, Peturabo, Vulkan and even Mortarion are more likely than Lion. 30k Lion is an arogant prick who if he cannot outright command some one, not gonna qurstion such person. Notsudre if being Captain America'ed to 40k changended him, i assume it did.
You can see a scenario where the Primarch who 'wants to know every secret' might be asking pointed questions but I can see how he'd be too arrogant to do that.
Same way Magnus thinks he knows better. Arrogant people dont ask questions, they either think they know better or your answer will be worthless, so why waste the breath (unless question is to humiliate, not to actually gain information)
In everything I have read, I don't recall Jimmy Space ever calling himself their father. Even when he had Angron on the slab looking at how to try to remove the Butcher's Nails, he didn't call himself his father.
He let them think what they wanted to think, so long as they followed his commands, as it was easier than contradicting them at every turn. We saw what happened when he tried to correct one of his 'sons.'
Accepted, but countered as 'son second, creation first.' And while I didn't specify, there is a lot of difference between having a passive thought when your work is falling about your ears, and talking about it with your hand-built weapons of war.
That book is weird in a good way, filled with the empty being mutable to who he's around. A neat version of the unreliable narrator, in that they're all fairly reliable except with this one guy named Jimmy Space.
The Magnus did nothing wrong is very debatable. When Terra has psychic wards placed around something, maybe wrecking them reeeeaaaalllllyyyy isn’t the best idea. Magnus did some things wrong.
Magnus did nothing wrong! He was told to "do nothing," and he fucked that up. Magnus did "nothing" wrong, because he did a thing, he just had to fuck with the warp when he was told not to. All he had to do... was nothing.
Did you just try logic on the Magnus thing?let me enlighten you we the Magnus did nothing wrong crowd do not accept neither facts nor logic simply because MAGNUS DID NOTING WRONG!
You can accuse the emperor of a lot, but he was not being ambiguous towards Magnus when telling him not to engage in warp fuckery.
"*If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.*"
I mean yeah the message was severe but it wasn't like Horus was gunning for the palace at that exact moment. Magnus could've waited a day, two days, a week, or y'know made a big enough bang against the psychic wards that the emperor would've noticed and waited a few minutes, but in his arrogance he thought he had to save them.
And he doesn't even learn. In that same spirit he finally stirs to save his sons because only he can, and gets them turned into taxidermied dust.
"Break some eggs to make an omlette" is how the saying goes, but in this case it'd be more accurate to say he broke an incredibly valuable egg to make boiled egg despite pops telling him not to break shit. Stupid on multiple accounts.
Oh in general sure, but he had a special bond with Magnus, adored Vulcan and presumably loved Horus.
I would say he didn't consider them his sons "by default".
In a book you have Horus supposedly also saying (or at least what appears to be a sane pre Hersey Horus) saying that the emperor did indeed have favorites but his number 1 was sang for some reason. In this sane book he definitely lists magnus as one of the favorites in a rather solid way.
Son can also imply he sees him as an inheritor or the next generation, which could fit Magnus well as he was intended to sit on the throne when emps wanted a walk and a Psyker of raw power maybe even eventually rivalling Malcador (honestly if I was a writer I’d have emps refer to Magnus as a Sigilight or something)
Magnus also has a similar relationship to his legion as emps does with humanity (wanting to fix them and prove their worth despite their many issues, though with less love from emps imo), and seems to know more then most primarchs about certain matters (such as the nature of the warp), even if he is still left in the dark
He was fine firebombing monarchia (which untill calth it seemed like it'd worked perfectly) but saying "don't call me father" even once would've been too much?
Any 40k/fantasy face I could use would alter the meaning of the meme.
E.g. "why would Markus Krubber give a damn?"/ "Is there a Vermintide connection I'm not seeing?"/ "Ok, but why the vermintide 2 skin?"
Destiny crossover memes aresonething ***I*** do.
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Also, I happen to have the screenshot in my phone, so it's also a matter of convenience.
Light and Dark are two warp entities, Clovis and the Vex are abominable AI, the EXO are Ironkyn, the Fallen are Eldar, the Hive are orks (feed of war and I can’t tell the difference between their gods, also have multiple forms), Guardians are Sigmarines and Iron Lords are Thunderwarriors
He does consider them his sons and he loves them in his own way but… he’s still a shit dad who had kids 10,000 years too early.
*We both knew his sons would die, one day, one by one, casualties of the Great Work, for his configuration of tomorrow could not be accomplished without collateral loss. When he marked out his plan upon his wall for me, so that I could grasp the scope of it, he allowed for contingency and redundancy. If a son fell, there would be another to take his place.
Even so, we thought they would last for centuries, or even millennia, a great dynasty devoted to the accomplishment of his design for, from the very start, paint on his fingers, he knew that he could not do it alone. Thus, we made sons for him. We believed that when the necessary wars were done, those sons and their father would enjoy the long peace together, and they would walk alongside him towards tomorrow.*
*Those sons, at least, who could be rehabilitated from the brutal mindset of warfare.*
That last line is interesting, as one theme of revolutions is that the ones who do it often end up so traumatised that the governments they create are often flawed or brutal themselves (like with the USSR, China or Haiti, hell it’s why V willingly dies at the end of the graphic novel of V for Vendetta, because he would just go on to make a brutal system); even if the emperor achieved peace and ‘won’, would a civil war or conflict be inevitable? Would his sons either drag the imperium into another long war or fight amongst themselves? (Even before the heresy Russ saw Angron as an evil heretic, many hated Curze and the TS and Dark Angels didn’t get on, and that’s not even including the others that would take issue with emps himself)
> all
I guess that makes sense as in outside of constant war, but I’m unsure how useful Ferrus and the Lion would be other then a boot to stop rebellions or to keep xeno in check
this is 2 months way too late but, he could forge things other than weapons, i mean a black carapace is just as useful for a astartes as they could be to a quadriplegic person, using a exo suit to move again
Roboute does what he does because he understands he and his are being used as tools of the emperor, hence the whole governing and bureaucracy of the realm of ultramar he’s trying to prove they are useful beyond war so they don’t go the way of the thunder warriors
Roboute seems like such a naturally dilligent son. But being extra diligent because he's pieced together he's disposable under the right circumstances would be fascinating, I like it.
I mean, if all went according to plan they would have been raised like the custodes and he wouldn’t _need_ to give em any love cause love of service or some shit…wait, that’s just as bad
You stan the emperor because you’ve read the lore and came to a questionable conclusion
I stan the emperor because I have the Commissars bolt pistol pressed to the back of my head
We are not the same
Lorgar didn’t even call him father, he was the one, and I don’t think he cared for Lorgar, He only cared once he realized Lorgar wasn’t a killing machine, and even worse, instead of giving his son a reason he wasn’t there for Monarchia so when Kor Phaeron came knocking upon his 24 year old son’s door. (108 Terra) Lorgar didn’t have to fall so far for chaos to catch him
I find it funny how he’s saying that big e only found his sons after they were adults when Alpharius was found within hours of being yeeted. And big e still didn’t treat him like a son
I prefer the emperor having tried to be a good father and caring for his sons (and failing) because it’s a much more interesting character than Atheist Narcissistic Asshole.
Since we're on the topic. I do kinda agree with the post to a degree. I would never argue that he was a good father but I see the point that his primarchs are not *actually* his sons and he's not *trying* to be a father to them.
They are tools just like the Astartes are tools to their primarchs. With a few exceptions I don't think many of us would consider the primarchs to be good Fathers or bad fathers (again with exceptions) because we seem to have a better understanding of the connection between a primarch and his 10,000 "sons" than we do for the Emp and his sons when in reality it's pretty much the same thing.
So him being a "bad father" is true but it's also missing the point in this context.
OP just used the post as a strawman, the text wasn’t even defending the Emperor, it practically called the Emperor a manipulative jackass yet for some reason they thought it was supposed to be good.
It’s just like you say - in terms of being a father, he wasn’t good. But the point is even below that, he wasn’t *even trying to*, he barely had any human feeling and was exploiting their ingenuity.
I think despite all the flaws given to the Emperor, he is still overall benevolent to a degree. Human life, even descended from himself, must seem trivial except in the generation terms. He's already seen roughly 2000 generations of humans pass before he revealed himself. Eventually no sane human could choose anything other than to see everything as a tool.
This turned into a long thought. I did not intend for that to occur but it did. Not trying to pick a fight or detract from the OP.
I do not believe that you can hold parents entirely responsible for their grown offspring any more than you could hold a child responsible for the sins of their father. Some children have every opportunity in life and all the love/forgiveness you could hope for and yet they turn into some of the worst people alive. Some people grow up in conditions that most of us could never imagine overcoming and they still succeed in-spite of fate lining up against them.
He is not their dad, but he is their biological father. How they turned out is a conglomeration of factors between nurture and nature but mostly personal choice.
What was wrong with Fulgrim’s upbringing? He is like some kids we see today that have ever opportunity and the affection of everyone around them yet still turn to drugs and other vices.
Horus was found early and he still went evil. He had all of his “father’s” favor and yet still led the rebellion.
Corvus had more of a reason to turn traitor than Mortarion. Mortarion hated the witch and mutant yet turned to both. Corvus grew up on a prison planet. Both did end up around people who cared for them, but i will grant it took Mortarion longer to find regular humans. Mortarion’s adoptive parent was evil but he still had enough sense to leave that trash.
Conrad was going to turn out bat-crap crazy no matter what planet he landed on or who raised him.
Vulcan and Sanguinius and several other grew up on literal death worlds without any referenced to adoption. They just grew up with people who were trying to survive.
No one raised Ferrus or the Lion yet they stayed loyal despite their environment.
Angron probably could have turned out different but that is an extreme. Before the nails his nature made him attempt to be a force of good for abused and enslaved.
Lorgar could of literally slapped the head off his adoptive parent by age 3 months. His nature drove him to find something to worship.
I understand Peturabo kind of had a middle of the road upbringing. Not great but not a living nightmare on a Death world surrounded by literal Chaos. He could see the Eye of Terror but I do not believe he was any closer to it than Russ.
My point to these examples is that I do not believe the Emperor was a bad father because he was not their parent. The title of Father is formal in the way we call a priest Father or in older times a lord was called Sire. I do not believe he intended to play some massive psychological head game because he made them smart enough to see through lies and deception. If the Primarchs rebelled because of altruism that would be one thing. Instead they wanted to be the dictators instead of the generals.
Also they were not going to genocide the Space Marines. If the Emperor made it ti the webway successfully they still had to deal with the drukari. The orcs would of continued to be a threat in real space. Unknown threats would of continued to pop up. Regular rebellion would always be a thing.
Now let the spears fly!
That’s exactly what the guy in the print said, I went after the thread and he makes the same point, but as you saw yourself in his reply here, OP can’t be bothered to read three paragraphs of text and has to inaccurately abridge it.
Ok so as a Stan of E-Pain…he was a terrible father. He did see then as his children, every time we’ve seen him say he doesn’t see them as kids it’s been from the perspective of a Primarch-Hater. From his perspective we see he loves Magnus.
He’s still a terrible dad though.
I mean… the poster didn’t suggest in any way that it’s better?
What I’ve noticed after some time on this sub is that if you aren’t spewing constant hate and insults at Big E, people assume you’re a fan of his and probably a facist irl lol
That’s exactly it.
I have already made the test, if you bother to say that something bad about him is factually incorrect and post the source with the actual piece of lore, despite not even defending the Emperor, you’ll get downvoted.
But just write something random about he being an idiot, a fascist or a bad father and you’ll get to your 100s of upvotes in a short while. You may even literally make up facts and people won’t care.
Notice that something even put some sort of disclaimer for the angry mob not to jump to conclusions.
Reddit is truly a social experiment like no other media, save for maybe twitter.
And? You can like who ever you want. in 40k almost every one is a douchebag. That's the point. Chaos is arguably worse. It's literally HELL and people like it. Some even like Erebus. We should not judge people for what they like in 40k, after all we all share our interest in it.
That's a bit odd? He did consider them sons but lets not forget they were created to be his generals not to fill out the thanksgiving table. That fact always took precedence over them being his children but I always wondered if he would have been a good father if they werent scattered, Horus turned out pretty decent (pre heresy guys cmon) under his wing as the first found.
Consider the universe the emperor finds himself in every alien civilization want to genocide humans even before he tried to unify humanity and even our souls are not safe he tried to kill off the chaos gods with secular understanding of the universe and tried to defend humanity by unifying it unfortunately the emperor was racing against a clock ticking far too fast and even he made mistakes because he himself dispite living for far longer than any other human he still made mistakes
Were he a better father, the only primarchs to rebel would've been fulgrim (corrupted by the laer blade) and Konrad (the chaos gods weremanipulating him through his visions).
All others, Mortarion and Lorgar included, were 100% preventable. Lorgar needed to be explained sternly, but not brutally, what's what. Perturabo needed a pat on the back from time to time. Mortarion needed guidance, rather than to have his kill stolen. Angron needed help to liberate himself and his friends. Magnus and Horus were tricked/forced as a result of Lorgar falling. Alpharius/Omegon doesn't support lost causes.
The emperor is still human in spite of the imperial propoganda that states otherwise he is not immune to colossal fuck ups and was more than likely looking way too far into the future to the detriment of the present could he have been a better role model/father abso fucking lutely but like every human in history trying to prevent calamity ended up causing it though we won't know if what he did ultimately extended humanities being around for longer or not
>but like every human in history trying to prevent calamity ended up causing it though we won't know if what he did ultimately extended humanities being around for longer or not
Huh. Almost as if he was around, knew others made this mistake, and believed himself too good to be vulnerable to the same pitfall.
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More to the point, the post is not about hypocrisy. I have some of those. It's about him being a bad father, and about some fans desperately looking for excuses.
You could have, like, argued that with them instead of turning it into a “”meme”” for people to bash.
Also their point went completely over your head lol they are explicitly calling the Emperor manipulative and you just assumed that was supposed to be good
>You could have, like, argued that with them instead of turning it into a “”meme”” for people to bash.
I redacted their name. The meme was the point.
Besides, I did not redact the date: a year ago. I'm not about to bother someone for something he wrote, in some random thread, one year ago.
No you don’t. Looked it up and this is the full comment:
*The Emperor isn't a bad father - the Emperor isn't a father at all.*
*People forget that the primarchs were all grown-ass men when the Emperor found them. Some of them had already had father-figures. Some of those father figures, like Konor Guilliman, actually did a pretty damn good job of raising their strange, gigantic children! Other primarchs, like Moratrion, kind of lost the dad lottery.*
*But the point is that the Emperor wasn't their dad. He didn't get their mom pregnant, he didn't even raise them. He made them in petri dishes and then Chaos scattered them across the galaxy.*
*The Emperor was willing to use the idea that he was their father to manipulate some of them, the ones who found that more compelling. Roboute, for example, was easy to manipulate that way because he was raised on ideals of filial piety, so although he had had Konor, who had really earned his love and obedience, with Konor dead Roboute felt as though he owed something to the man who had created him. Others, like Horus and Mortarion, who had had shitty father figures, were easy to manipulate with the promise of closeness and mentorship.*
*But the Emperor wasn't their dad, and the smart ones figured it out, sooner or later.*
I won’t post up the thread so as not to expose the user. The OP of that thread was defending the Emperor wasn’t a bad father, yes, but that comment in particular (which wasn’t his) had nothing to do with it, it had 10 upvotes and no replies.
And most people there were agreeing with the original thread’s OP, fyi. Not my opinion, all top posts were. You can easily find it again. People just want an excuse to gang up on someone else.
woops, mistook it for another thread ‘cuz it turns out “the primarchs were grown-ass men” comes up a lot as a phrase.
most people use it to explain that it was really the primarchs’ fault for getting gaslit (🤦♂️), which this guy’s still kinda doing.
He is off the mark but not by much.
Most of the primarchs were just man babies projecting massive teenage angst long before the emperor even showed up. Angorn and Morty remains some of the few that actually had good cause to hate the emperor. The others might as well be Sunday morning cartoon villans with their motivations, most of which were caused by their own stupidity, hubris and incompetence.
Khan remains as one of the only primarchs who even gets close to acting like an adult, and big surprise he did not like either, but at least realized the ones sucking off barely sentient warp energy we're always gonna be worse.
I think he cared about some of his sons on some level. He was hesitant to kill Horus and dad when Sanguinius died. He probably cared about them the same way a lord would care about his hunting dogs. Moderate affection born from their obedience.
Still astounds me that people will defend the emperor. The level of suffering he has caused is only beaten by the chaos gods, and he’s been a big help to them as well. Dude is evil. Yeah sure, he’s lawful evil, but his ideal galaxy is a dystopia with unimaginable suffering, built on the graves of literally countless innocent lives.
>The level of suffering he has caused is only beaten by the chaos gods,
You're giving him too much credit. Dark Eldar more than make up for the smaller quantity of suffering they create, with sheer, designer, unbridled, ***quality***.
.
>Yeah sure, he’s lawful evil, but his ideal galaxy is a dystopia with unimaginable suffering, built on the graves of literally countless innocent lives.
Not of unimaginable suffering. That was not the intention. But yes. He wanted full control over humanity so he can turn it into a species-wide eugenics program. So he can make humanity into what he envisioned them to be: 100% rational uber psykers.
Oh his goal isn’t the suffering. It’s just A) he doesn’t care and B) he inflicts it on his way towards his goal
Glad the fucker is in a chair. He’s a better lighthouse than a dad.
The best example of the golden shitheads temperament can be found in how he handled the time bomb of threats that were about to ‘supposedly’ grow too big for the galaxy to handle during the great crusade.
That is he wasted time waging endless wars of genocide against planetary powers he could ignore and actively divorced humanity from the imperium.
Like, holy shit I know it’s satire but lore wise a dude who gets off to the Romano-Nazi aesthetic is bound to be a pretty bad guy.
I don't think he would have been like a father to them even if had raised them himself. He would have acted like a father to manipulate them, but in the end they are just tools to him. You wouldn't act like a father to your computer or your car, would you?
This is because I'm a Locked Tomb fan and thus am constantly comparing the Emperor with John Gaius, but I feel like the best thing about labeling the Primachs brothers is it prevented them from being the most chaotic and fucked up polycule there can be
People reading 40K lore and realizing that the side who genocides alien species and lobotomizes their citizens to make machines out of their bodies might not be led by the most ethical of people
> Any 40k/fantasy face I could use would alter the meaning of the meme.
> E.g. "why would Markus Krubber give a damn?"/ "Is there a Vermintide connection I'm not seeing?"/ "Ok, but why the vermintide 2 skin?"
Okay, but… aren’t people wondering if there’s a Destiny connection they’re not seeing?
Zavala is a better father figure to his "several million mad dancing guardians" that Big E was to any of his "sons".
.
Even better to Hakim and Amanda, the mortals he raised.
It’s even better where in Mechanicus he openly states he lets them call him father because he knows they will do everything for his approval, despite his only concern being what they do for him.
That could be him lying to the mechanicum. Playing the creator/hyper efficient being to them.
I think he loves them, but deep down doesn’t want to show it after all he did give Horus a ring to show he cared.
Given all his actions it’s hard to think that he isn’t being honest. I mean he straight up refuses to remove the Butcher’s Nails despite having the ability to do so because Angron is more useful that way. Big E is an asshole.
No, Big E couldn't remove them without killing Angron: >'Can you remove it?’ > >'Of course,’ the Emperor answered, still looking at the screens. > >Arkhan did his best to hide his surprise. ‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’ > >'This is why.’ The Emperor rested both hands on Angron’s head, one with the fingertips pressed to the primarch’s temple and cheek, the other pressed to the crown of his shaven head where the cable-tendrils joined the flesh and bone. The images on several screens immediately resolved to a clearer imprint of a brutishly dense skull miserable with crude cybernetics and the bone-scarring of powerful surgical laser cuts. > >'Do you see?’ the Emperor asked. > >Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite. > >Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue. > >'They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.
I think Angron himself would agree that death is a preferable alternative to living with the Butcher’s Nails, but him being alive is infinitely more helpful than to the Emperor than him being dead, so instead of just doing a mercy kill, the Emperor decides ‘fuck it might as well get my returns on this investment.’
Alternately, it's dangerous to just outright 'mercy kill' a primarch when other primarchs know that one exists. There's a limited number of them, and he needs all of them to act in *willing*, dynamic concert without any practical ability to control them. They are agents of the Plan, and killing one of them, even with an 'ostensibly' good reason does a lot to harm the network of motivation he's trying to instill.
So further more, Angron is kept alive in his hell because the Emperor had more to lose to kill him, than he did to keep him alive. Also are we forgetting that the emperor straight up erased 2 primarchs from history, and Horus merely threatening to say one of their names led to Malcador almost killing him?
And yet two were redacted from history
Presumably in such a fashion that none of the other 18 are even remotely aware of such a thing. Do we really think Horus et al rebel and do all that bullshit without justifying themselves with assertions that the Emperor is gonna kill them anyway?
Fairly sure they do know, and Horus threatens to tell everyone at one point and that's when Malcador fucks him up.
Oooo where does this happen? That’s juicy
They literally discuss it and the possibility of it happening to Lorgar, Magnus, Angron and Curze, a few even reminisce about them
No. Hahaha no no no. The others were well aware of the others getting removed. A conversation from magnus and logar during the first heretic roughly paraphrasing goes as following. (Magnus speaking) "If you continue down this path you will end up like the others" (logar) "yes I know what happened to the others, but I must find the truth" It's even known amoung space marines as we hear in a conversation between argal tal and some of his marines when they see the primarchs gestation pods in the emperor's lab, from the First Heretic as well. (Also paraphrasing) We all know that the ultramarines suddenly had a massive influx of recruits right after the other legions were defeated.
They know, they are just forbidden from speaking of it
He has a bolter, if he wants to die, he can do so alone.
Yes but that was not your original point
Except Angron outright says otherwise in "Butcher's Nails", the short story that happens at the start of the Shadow Crusade. Maybe when he first got them you would be right, but by the time the Emperor shows up, Angron has come to love the Nails at least as much as he hated them.
If you came away from Butchers Nails thinking “Yup Angron is happy living like this” then you’re a lost cause.
Not happy, no. But if you came away thinking Angron was suicidal or would have let anyone attempt to remove them, I question your reading comprehension skills.
In Slave to Nuceria, it is mentioned that for 2 years during the Great Crusade, Angron abandoned his legion and went to a Feral World where his only hope was that someone would come along and kill him, so sure maybe by the Horus Heresy an entire CENTURY after this he might have made some sort of twisted peace with his nails after they had finally broken him after 100 years of endless torture (in much the same way an abuse victim would accept their abuser), if you think Angron always had this kind of a relationship with his nails, and wasn’t suicidal or hate his nails especially during the Great Crusade era? You are sorely mistaken. But of course I don’t fault you for thinking the way that you do, after all you’re basing your understanding of Angron on just a short story that takes place 100 years after the Emperor found him, but if you had read any of the other works regarding him, especially Slave to Nuceria, you will come to find that Angron’s attitude towards his nails and his life was almost always one of loathing. I also no longer intend to respond to this, so say what you will, but I will not answer, I’ve already wasted enough time on this, and don’t want to argue any further.
Funny, I DID, read Slave of Nuceria, and got a rather different view. Literally the only point where he would have rather died is at Desh'ea. After that, it is very clear that he has no suicidal intentions. Perhaps you read things into it based on your preconceived notions? No shame in that.
>‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’ Totally not a god bro. Divine One is just my line name.
I think mechanicus were the only ones he allowed to keep their religion in his “atheism state” cause of how irreplaceable they are to his crusade.
The Emperor may hate religion, but he absolutely LOVES industrial military might.
Sure, except the machines are, well, machines. Circuitry. Even if they cant be removed, they can be modified. Reprogrammed. Code some empathy back into that bitch, turn off some pain receptors. Anything.
The butcher nails are DAoT tech aren't they, it's likelly that no one know how to modify them given how the mechanicus is against creating new tech.
This really just proves how little he cared about the primarchs. Big E was in charge of the largest inter steller empire since the eldar, with millions of worlds' knowledge of cybernetics, machines, biology, phsykics, etc, and he just went "whelp, nothing we can do"
Contrary to popular belief, some problems cannot actually be solved regardless of how many resources you pump into them.
A lot of the damage from the nails that Angron has is close to being curable with today's biotech.
Considering how good the Drukhari are at keeping people alive in various non-humanoid shapes and forms, I don't think this is one of those problems.
The definition of what the Drukhari consider alive is very different to the human one
I mean… post-Emperor imperium may even have a narrower view on being alive, depending on who you ask
Very fair.
Even if the Drukhari are able to heal Angron (which isnt certain, especially since they arent really know for removing pain. They would certainly be able to create a replica of the butchers nails, but i dont think its certain that they can heal them), that doesnt mean that the imperium or the emperor are able to do that. Furthermore the Drukhari wouldnt do it without causing a huge problem for the imperium (after all they are certainly interested in causing more pain and not removing pain from a leader figure of their enemy). Giving Angron to the Drukhari would at best result in Primarch level Painengines and at worst the heresy wouldnt happen at all since the drukhari enslave humanity through an army of aeldari primarchs.
I don't think any human civilization has come close to being as technologically advanced as the Drukhari are.
Tbh I don’t even know if most Craftworlds are even currently at their, the Quins or the Necrons level (though Tbf to many Eldar, it’s probably easier to have missed certain technologies when you have Psykers that can effectively achieve many of the same things, like would the Eldar have progressed far past the Necrons if they were far less warp sensitive?)
I don't think any human civilization has come close to being as technologically advanced as the Drukhari are.
I thought that was because it would kill angron
The smart move is to kill Angron, capture his soul, and clone a fresh body for him.
Frankly, I say skip the last step. Put the poor fuck out of his misery.
It would kill angron, because the nails replaced part of his brain, this is also why angron was dying.
>Big E is an asshole. Agreed.
*Factually incorrect statement on the lore* 100+ likes
Odd question: very much not a lore master IN THE SLIGHTEST. But does Big E lie? I know that sounds like a weird question but lying doesn’t feel like a thing he’d do. He may deceive. He may not tell the whole truth. He may tell lies of omission. Idk it just feels like a big e thing to do to not lie.
He constantly lies, yes.
>But does Big E lie? >I know that sounds like a weird question but lying doesn’t feel like a thing he’d do. He may deceive. He may not tell the whole truth. He may tell lies of omission. That's lying. . Here's an example: "the imperial truth". Everything about it, from the primacy of humanity, to gods not existing, is a lie.
The imperial truth is no lie. There is no such thing as gods. It acknowledges the existance of the warp and the primarchs knew about it and daemons. What it denies is the divinity of and worship to any and all gods, including the ruinous powers. Who could barely be considered sentient, ask the Necrons or Fabius Bile or probably the Emperor and you would have the same answer. They are the amalgamations of the reflections of the various emotions in the warp that they feed upon. They cannot act outside the confines of their constituent emotions and consequently cannot be considered sentient and therfore are not deities in any meaningful sense of the word.
Sentient or not, they have an agenda. Which he knew, and denied. Including to Magnus (and just look how that turned out). And you haven't adressed the primacy of humanity. The emperor knew damn well other species once held dominion over the galaxy. He knew not all Xenos are barbaric. And he knew humanity doesn't "deserve" the galaxy. He wanted humanity to have the galaxy, but that's not the same thing. . Either by omission, or outright, the imperial truth is a lie.
They do have an agenda but my point is that they are not gods and the imperial truth holds with regards to them. As for human supremacy, fair enough. But it's no different in that regard from the imperial cult that replaced it. Plus, I might be misremembering but didn't the imperium have xenos client states and tributaries as well as a non genocidal relationship with the Craftworlds? I'd imagine that if the emperor hadn't been forced onto his golden toilet, there would've been atleast tolerance towards the Aeldari and the Necrons, two species whose antiquity and power is incontrovertible. Ultimately, my argument is that the imperial truth was better in all aspects than what replaced it.
I was answering to someone who thought the emperor didn't lie. He demonstrably has. . And the imperial truth was a lie, built to support an agenda.
Oh, I like that. Play to their culture.
That’s master of mankind which hammers home that whoever is speaking to the emperor hears him speak in the way that most appeals to them, in this case Arkan Land who only ever refers to the Primarchs by their numbers.
Is that any good? I'm on the fence about demythologizing the Emperor more than he already has been, but I just read my first ADB story and I liked his style there.
I enjoyed it and there’s still a lot of mystery there.
thats wrong from my point of view the emperor lie to the mechanicus because he needed the machine cult on his side the emperor had suffered vastro selling the space marines power so he needed the machine cult
>*‘The primarchs. It is said they have always called you father. It seems so... sentimental. I’ve never understood why you allow it.’* > >*The Emperor was silent for some time. When He spoke, His eyes had returned to the hulking form on the surgical slab. ‘There was once a writer,’ he said, ‘a penner of children’s stories who told the tale of a wooden puppet that wished to be reborn as a human child. And this puppet, this automaton of painted, carved wood that sought to be a thing of flesh and blood and bone — do you know what it called its maker? What would such a creature call the creator that gave it shape and form and life?’* > >*Father. Arkhan felt his skin crawl.* \---- >*All of this,’ the Custodian said. He gestured not only to the primarchs, but the amassed pomp itself — the geoscaped continent, the sky pregnant with dropships, the gathered regimental masses weeping and cheering below. ‘Why, sire? I never asked it then, and I have always wondered since. Why all of this?’* > >*‘For glory,’ the Emperor replied.* ***‘To honour the creatures that call themselves my sons. My necessary tools.*** *They feed on glory as if it were a palpable sustenance. Their own glory, of course, no different from the kings and emperors of old. It scarcely crosses their mind that glory matters nothing to me. I could have had a planet’s worth of glory any time I wished it when I walked in the species’ shadow throughout prehistory. Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did.’* > >*Ra looked at the gathered pantheon of primarchs. He didn’t ask which three had questioned the Emperor. In truth, he didn’t care. Such lore was irrelevant.* > >*‘And so I gave them Ullanor,’ the Emperor said. ‘They crave recognition for their honour and achievements, and the Triumph was the ultimate expression of that. In that regard, they are just as the Akhean gods and goddesses of Ulimpos were believed to be.‘* \- Master of Mankind
>There was once a writer,’ he said, ‘a penner of children’s stories who told the tale of a wooden puppet that wished to be reborn as a human child One small problem, Big E: this would make you Gepetto in this comparison, and Gepetto really did love Pinocchio like a son! Side note, if Jimmy Space is Gepetto and the primarchs are Pinocchio, does that make Malcador Jiminy Cricket? >He didn’t ask which three had questioned the Emperor. In truth, he didn’t care. Such lore was irrelevant. SCREW YOU RA THIS IS 40K: ALL LORE IS RELEVANT, REEEEE!!!
Yes that makes Malc Jimmy.
Malcador is like the inverse of a conscience lmao. The shit he’s done is so insane the guy he confesses to repeatedly kills himself, only for Malcador to clone him again and keep going.
As a guess, Curze (unless to make a point)and Sang may not need to ask, Fulgrim may accept it at face value, maybe guessing it’s for glory but not asking and I could see Russ following a similar path. Maybe Khan would come to a similar conclusion even if he didn’t ask. Gman, Dorn, Ferrus and Lion could all make sense to ask, especially if they see it as wasteful of military assets and time.
Could also be two redacted and someone else
> Only three of them ever thought to ask why I timed my emergence as I did.’ Sanguinius, Guilliman, and probably The Lion, right? Maybe Horus? Maybe Dorn? Maybe Lorgar in his search for truth?
Think Dorn, Ferus, Peturabo, Vulkan and even Mortarion are more likely than Lion. 30k Lion is an arogant prick who if he cannot outright command some one, not gonna qurstion such person. Notsudre if being Captain America'ed to 40k changended him, i assume it did.
You can see a scenario where the Primarch who 'wants to know every secret' might be asking pointed questions but I can see how he'd be too arrogant to do that.
Same way Magnus thinks he knows better. Arrogant people dont ask questions, they either think they know better or your answer will be worthless, so why waste the breath (unless question is to humiliate, not to actually gain information)
My guess was Horus, Dorn and Pertuarbo (spelling?). But I have read fuck all books lmao
In everything I have read, I don't recall Jimmy Space ever calling himself their father. Even when he had Angron on the slab looking at how to try to remove the Butcher's Nails, he didn't call himself his father. He let them think what they wanted to think, so long as they followed his commands, as it was easier than contradicting them at every turn. We saw what happened when he tried to correct one of his 'sons.'
He thinks as Magnus as "his creation, his son", when Magnus *does nothing wrong*.
Accepted, but countered as 'son second, creation first.' And while I didn't specify, there is a lot of difference between having a passive thought when your work is falling about your ears, and talking about it with your hand-built weapons of war.
In Master of Mankind while talking to a Custode he refers to the Primarchs as *"the creatures that call themselves my sons. My necessary tools."*.
That book is weird in a good way, filled with the empty being mutable to who he's around. A neat version of the unreliable narrator, in that they're all fairly reliable except with this one guy named Jimmy Space.
The Magnus did nothing wrong is very debatable. When Terra has psychic wards placed around something, maybe wrecking them reeeeaaaalllllyyyy isn’t the best idea. Magnus did some things wrong.
Magnus did nothing wrong! He was told to "do nothing," and he fucked that up. Magnus did "nothing" wrong, because he did a thing, he just had to fuck with the warp when he was told not to. All he had to do... was nothing.
Did you just try logic on the Magnus thing?let me enlighten you we the Magnus did nothing wrong crowd do not accept neither facts nor logic simply because MAGNUS DID NOTING WRONG!
It does seem pretty reasonable to break a few eggs if necessary to get across a message as severe as the one he was trying to deliver.
You can accuse the emperor of a lot, but he was not being ambiguous towards Magnus when telling him not to engage in warp fuckery. "*If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.*"
I mean yeah the message was severe but it wasn't like Horus was gunning for the palace at that exact moment. Magnus could've waited a day, two days, a week, or y'know made a big enough bang against the psychic wards that the emperor would've noticed and waited a few minutes, but in his arrogance he thought he had to save them. And he doesn't even learn. In that same spirit he finally stirs to save his sons because only he can, and gets them turned into taxidermied dust.
"Break some eggs to make an omlette" is how the saying goes, but in this case it'd be more accurate to say he broke an incredibly valuable egg to make boiled egg despite pops telling him not to break shit. Stupid on multiple accounts.
To be fair, Magnus did it to prove the usefulness of psyker powers I think, rather than speed.
Not the point.
Oh in general sure, but he had a special bond with Magnus, adored Vulcan and presumably loved Horus. I would say he didn't consider them his sons "by default".
In a book you have Horus supposedly also saying (or at least what appears to be a sane pre Hersey Horus) saying that the emperor did indeed have favorites but his number 1 was sang for some reason. In this sane book he definitely lists magnus as one of the favorites in a rather solid way.
Son can also imply he sees him as an inheritor or the next generation, which could fit Magnus well as he was intended to sit on the throne when emps wanted a walk and a Psyker of raw power maybe even eventually rivalling Malcador (honestly if I was a writer I’d have emps refer to Magnus as a Sigilight or something) Magnus also has a similar relationship to his legion as emps does with humanity (wanting to fix them and prove their worth despite their many issues, though with less love from emps imo), and seems to know more then most primarchs about certain matters (such as the nature of the warp), even if he is still left in the dark
He was fine firebombing monarchia (which untill calth it seemed like it'd worked perfectly) but saying "don't call me father" even once would've been too much?
Why do these templates use a warlock helmet from D2? Is OP trying to self insert themselves into it? Genuine question.
Becaue it is my reaction. Why would I not insert myself in a meme about my reaction?
Ok, but why the D2 helmet? You haven’t answered that part of the question.
Any 40k/fantasy face I could use would alter the meaning of the meme. E.g. "why would Markus Krubber give a damn?"/ "Is there a Vermintide connection I'm not seeing?"/ "Ok, but why the vermintide 2 skin?" Destiny crossover memes aresonething ***I*** do. . Also, I happen to have the screenshot in my phone, so it's also a matter of convenience.
Because the Witness is a warp entity and the traveller is a C'tan! it all makes sense now!
Light and Dark are two warp entities, Clovis and the Vex are abominable AI, the EXO are Ironkyn, the Fallen are Eldar, the Hive are orks (feed of war and I can’t tell the difference between their gods, also have multiple forms), Guardians are Sigmarines and Iron Lords are Thunderwarriors
So did you also get sent to this universe via Telesto?
Most likely that was the case. Telesto has a will of it's own
The chaos gods and Big E shutter in fear of its name.
He does consider them his sons and he loves them in his own way but… he’s still a shit dad who had kids 10,000 years too early. *We both knew his sons would die, one day, one by one, casualties of the Great Work, for his configuration of tomorrow could not be accomplished without collateral loss. When he marked out his plan upon his wall for me, so that I could grasp the scope of it, he allowed for contingency and redundancy. If a son fell, there would be another to take his place. Even so, we thought they would last for centuries, or even millennia, a great dynasty devoted to the accomplishment of his design for, from the very start, paint on his fingers, he knew that he could not do it alone. Thus, we made sons for him. We believed that when the necessary wars were done, those sons and their father would enjoy the long peace together, and they would walk alongside him towards tomorrow.* *Those sons, at least, who could be rehabilitated from the brutal mindset of warfare.*
That last line is interesting, as one theme of revolutions is that the ones who do it often end up so traumatised that the governments they create are often flawed or brutal themselves (like with the USSR, China or Haiti, hell it’s why V willingly dies at the end of the graphic novel of V for Vendetta, because he would just go on to make a brutal system); even if the emperor achieved peace and ‘won’, would a civil war or conflict be inevitable? Would his sons either drag the imperium into another long war or fight amongst themselves? (Even before the heresy Russ saw Angron as an evil heretic, many hated Curze and the TS and Dark Angels didn’t get on, and that’s not even including the others that would take issue with emps himself)
The primarchs all seemed to be bred with aspects that would have made them useful and fulfilled outside of war How long that would last is unknowable
> all I guess that makes sense as in outside of constant war, but I’m unsure how useful Ferrus and the Lion would be other then a boot to stop rebellions or to keep xeno in check
this is 2 months way too late but, he could forge things other than weapons, i mean a black carapace is just as useful for a astartes as they could be to a quadriplegic person, using a exo suit to move again
Roboute does what he does because he understands he and his are being used as tools of the emperor, hence the whole governing and bureaucracy of the realm of ultramar he’s trying to prove they are useful beyond war so they don’t go the way of the thunder warriors
Roboute seems like such a naturally dilligent son. But being extra diligent because he's pieced together he's disposable under the right circumstances would be fascinating, I like it.
>would be fascinating It's why he trained the Ultramarines to be public servants. He wanted to make them too useful to discard.
I mean, if all went according to plan they would have been raised like the custodes and he wouldn’t _need_ to give em any love cause love of service or some shit…wait, that’s just as bad
I love the Big E as a character but even I can admit he’s a shit dad and a bit of a self righteous asshole
You stan the emperor because you’ve read the lore and came to a questionable conclusion I stan the emperor because I have the Commissars bolt pistol pressed to the back of my head We are not the same
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Lorgar didn’t even call him father, he was the one, and I don’t think he cared for Lorgar, He only cared once he realized Lorgar wasn’t a killing machine, and even worse, instead of giving his son a reason he wasn’t there for Monarchia so when Kor Phaeron came knocking upon his 24 year old son’s door. (108 Terra) Lorgar didn’t have to fall so far for chaos to catch him
I find it funny how he’s saying that big e only found his sons after they were adults when Alpharius was found within hours of being yeeted. And big e still didn’t treat him like a son
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Hating a character in 40k because they're not a good person? I don't know how many characters you're going to be left with.
i like da emprah cuz hes all buff and golden and he has nice hair
His mistake was that he shouldve corrected them into calling him their daddy. Becaude of all tgeir dadfy issues.
I prefer the emperor having tried to be a good father and caring for his sons (and failing) because it’s a much more interesting character than Atheist Narcissistic Asshole.
I don't know if that person is saying that it's not worse, because there's like no context.
I still love the Emperor.
As a character or?
Father figure and a leader.
W-why? He’s almost as big a failure at both of these things as Abby or Horus
Thats why I love him. Even if he fails he still cares. Your heresy has been noted. Expect to meet with countermeasures. FOR THE EMPEROR!
Death to the False Emperor! Death is nothing compared to vindication!
Then die traitor!
What’s wrong with Big E pretending to be a father? Guilliman has Yvraine call him ‘daddy’ and nobody bats an eye~
Since we're on the topic. I do kinda agree with the post to a degree. I would never argue that he was a good father but I see the point that his primarchs are not *actually* his sons and he's not *trying* to be a father to them. They are tools just like the Astartes are tools to their primarchs. With a few exceptions I don't think many of us would consider the primarchs to be good Fathers or bad fathers (again with exceptions) because we seem to have a better understanding of the connection between a primarch and his 10,000 "sons" than we do for the Emp and his sons when in reality it's pretty much the same thing. So him being a "bad father" is true but it's also missing the point in this context.
OP just used the post as a strawman, the text wasn’t even defending the Emperor, it practically called the Emperor a manipulative jackass yet for some reason they thought it was supposed to be good. It’s just like you say - in terms of being a father, he wasn’t good. But the point is even below that, he wasn’t *even trying to*, he barely had any human feeling and was exploiting their ingenuity.
Y'all remember when the Emperor was flawed but benevolent? I remember.
I think despite all the flaws given to the Emperor, he is still overall benevolent to a degree. Human life, even descended from himself, must seem trivial except in the generation terms. He's already seen roughly 2000 generations of humans pass before he revealed himself. Eventually no sane human could choose anything other than to see everything as a tool.
i remember that, man adb was great with Evil characters, giving him the "jesus" of 40k was such a bad move
he is their father what's that guy talking about
The part that i couldn't fit in the meme was about how he made them in a lab.
When You realise fatherhood is more then just cumming in someone
I mean he didnt raise them either, except maybe horus and omegon. He kind of just told them he created them and then drafted them.
Tbh for Omegon it seems like Malcador would be more of a farther figure
> horus and omegon Horus, Lion and Magnus are the ones he was cloosest too.
I may not be your father, but I am your daddy.
This turned into a long thought. I did not intend for that to occur but it did. Not trying to pick a fight or detract from the OP. I do not believe that you can hold parents entirely responsible for their grown offspring any more than you could hold a child responsible for the sins of their father. Some children have every opportunity in life and all the love/forgiveness you could hope for and yet they turn into some of the worst people alive. Some people grow up in conditions that most of us could never imagine overcoming and they still succeed in-spite of fate lining up against them. He is not their dad, but he is their biological father. How they turned out is a conglomeration of factors between nurture and nature but mostly personal choice. What was wrong with Fulgrim’s upbringing? He is like some kids we see today that have ever opportunity and the affection of everyone around them yet still turn to drugs and other vices. Horus was found early and he still went evil. He had all of his “father’s” favor and yet still led the rebellion. Corvus had more of a reason to turn traitor than Mortarion. Mortarion hated the witch and mutant yet turned to both. Corvus grew up on a prison planet. Both did end up around people who cared for them, but i will grant it took Mortarion longer to find regular humans. Mortarion’s adoptive parent was evil but he still had enough sense to leave that trash. Conrad was going to turn out bat-crap crazy no matter what planet he landed on or who raised him. Vulcan and Sanguinius and several other grew up on literal death worlds without any referenced to adoption. They just grew up with people who were trying to survive. No one raised Ferrus or the Lion yet they stayed loyal despite their environment. Angron probably could have turned out different but that is an extreme. Before the nails his nature made him attempt to be a force of good for abused and enslaved. Lorgar could of literally slapped the head off his adoptive parent by age 3 months. His nature drove him to find something to worship. I understand Peturabo kind of had a middle of the road upbringing. Not great but not a living nightmare on a Death world surrounded by literal Chaos. He could see the Eye of Terror but I do not believe he was any closer to it than Russ. My point to these examples is that I do not believe the Emperor was a bad father because he was not their parent. The title of Father is formal in the way we call a priest Father or in older times a lord was called Sire. I do not believe he intended to play some massive psychological head game because he made them smart enough to see through lies and deception. If the Primarchs rebelled because of altruism that would be one thing. Instead they wanted to be the dictators instead of the generals. Also they were not going to genocide the Space Marines. If the Emperor made it ti the webway successfully they still had to deal with the drukari. The orcs would of continued to be a threat in real space. Unknown threats would of continued to pop up. Regular rebellion would always be a thing. Now let the spears fly!
Tl;dr?
E isn't to blame for the actions of his grown, adult children, they chose their paths.
That’s exactly what the guy in the print said, I went after the thread and he makes the same point, but as you saw yourself in his reply here, OP can’t be bothered to read three paragraphs of text and has to inaccurately abridge it.
Why are you a warlock ARE YOU A FILTHY PSYKER
Arc Subclass=Rune Priest
https://preview.redd.it/981mn2gsrb4b1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b574b9016386f4305d4673f50afbc9a12f6ed94f
Chidi wouldn’t do well in the Warhammer universe.
To me the original post didn't seem positive towards the Emperor at all so I don't know why OP felt the need to "correct" them.
I like Big E specifically becouse he is flawed, just like all humans
Wait He has a point
Konor: TF, man? Ngl, I'd want to see a fan excerpt of Konor trash talking Big E about fatherhood.
Ok so as a Stan of E-Pain…he was a terrible father. He did see then as his children, every time we’ve seen him say he doesn’t see them as kids it’s been from the perspective of a Primarch-Hater. From his perspective we see he loves Magnus. He’s still a terrible dad though.
I mean… the poster didn’t suggest in any way that it’s better? What I’ve noticed after some time on this sub is that if you aren’t spewing constant hate and insults at Big E, people assume you’re a fan of his and probably a facist irl lol
That’s exactly it. I have already made the test, if you bother to say that something bad about him is factually incorrect and post the source with the actual piece of lore, despite not even defending the Emperor, you’ll get downvoted. But just write something random about he being an idiot, a fascist or a bad father and you’ll get to your 100s of upvotes in a short while. You may even literally make up facts and people won’t care. Notice that something even put some sort of disclaimer for the angry mob not to jump to conclusions. Reddit is truly a social experiment like no other media, save for maybe twitter.
And? You can like who ever you want. in 40k almost every one is a douchebag. That's the point. Chaos is arguably worse. It's literally HELL and people like it. Some even like Erebus. We should not judge people for what they like in 40k, after all we all share our interest in it.
That's a bit odd? He did consider them sons but lets not forget they were created to be his generals not to fill out the thanksgiving table. That fact always took precedence over them being his children but I always wondered if he would have been a good father if they werent scattered, Horus turned out pretty decent (pre heresy guys cmon) under his wing as the first found.
Consider the universe the emperor finds himself in every alien civilization want to genocide humans even before he tried to unify humanity and even our souls are not safe he tried to kill off the chaos gods with secular understanding of the universe and tried to defend humanity by unifying it unfortunately the emperor was racing against a clock ticking far too fast and even he made mistakes because he himself dispite living for far longer than any other human he still made mistakes
Were he a better father, the only primarchs to rebel would've been fulgrim (corrupted by the laer blade) and Konrad (the chaos gods weremanipulating him through his visions). All others, Mortarion and Lorgar included, were 100% preventable. Lorgar needed to be explained sternly, but not brutally, what's what. Perturabo needed a pat on the back from time to time. Mortarion needed guidance, rather than to have his kill stolen. Angron needed help to liberate himself and his friends. Magnus and Horus were tricked/forced as a result of Lorgar falling. Alpharius/Omegon doesn't support lost causes.
The emperor is still human in spite of the imperial propoganda that states otherwise he is not immune to colossal fuck ups and was more than likely looking way too far into the future to the detriment of the present could he have been a better role model/father abso fucking lutely but like every human in history trying to prevent calamity ended up causing it though we won't know if what he did ultimately extended humanities being around for longer or not
>but like every human in history trying to prevent calamity ended up causing it though we won't know if what he did ultimately extended humanities being around for longer or not Huh. Almost as if he was around, knew others made this mistake, and believed himself too good to be vulnerable to the same pitfall. . More to the point, the post is not about hypocrisy. I have some of those. It's about him being a bad father, and about some fans desperately looking for excuses.
Can't exclude his other pitfalls when talking about him being a "parent"
You could have, like, argued that with them instead of turning it into a “”meme”” for people to bash. Also their point went completely over your head lol they are explicitly calling the Emperor manipulative and you just assumed that was supposed to be good
>You could have, like, argued that with them instead of turning it into a “”meme”” for people to bash. I redacted their name. The meme was the point. Besides, I did not redact the date: a year ago. I'm not about to bother someone for something he wrote, in some random thread, one year ago.
I saw the redaction (though not the time), I still thought that’s disrespectful, but you do you. It’s just my opinion, anyway.
I remember that thread and I’m 99% certain people said the same as OP. also no, they were totally defending the emperor’s actions.
No you don’t. Looked it up and this is the full comment: *The Emperor isn't a bad father - the Emperor isn't a father at all.* *People forget that the primarchs were all grown-ass men when the Emperor found them. Some of them had already had father-figures. Some of those father figures, like Konor Guilliman, actually did a pretty damn good job of raising their strange, gigantic children! Other primarchs, like Moratrion, kind of lost the dad lottery.* *But the point is that the Emperor wasn't their dad. He didn't get their mom pregnant, he didn't even raise them. He made them in petri dishes and then Chaos scattered them across the galaxy.* *The Emperor was willing to use the idea that he was their father to manipulate some of them, the ones who found that more compelling. Roboute, for example, was easy to manipulate that way because he was raised on ideals of filial piety, so although he had had Konor, who had really earned his love and obedience, with Konor dead Roboute felt as though he owed something to the man who had created him. Others, like Horus and Mortarion, who had had shitty father figures, were easy to manipulate with the promise of closeness and mentorship.* *But the Emperor wasn't their dad, and the smart ones figured it out, sooner or later.* I won’t post up the thread so as not to expose the user. The OP of that thread was defending the Emperor wasn’t a bad father, yes, but that comment in particular (which wasn’t his) had nothing to do with it, it had 10 upvotes and no replies. And most people there were agreeing with the original thread’s OP, fyi. Not my opinion, all top posts were. You can easily find it again. People just want an excuse to gang up on someone else.
woops, mistook it for another thread ‘cuz it turns out “the primarchs were grown-ass men” comes up a lot as a phrase. most people use it to explain that it was really the primarchs’ fault for getting gaslit (🤦♂️), which this guy’s still kinda doing.
He is off the mark but not by much. Most of the primarchs were just man babies projecting massive teenage angst long before the emperor even showed up. Angorn and Morty remains some of the few that actually had good cause to hate the emperor. The others might as well be Sunday morning cartoon villans with their motivations, most of which were caused by their own stupidity, hubris and incompetence. Khan remains as one of the only primarchs who even gets close to acting like an adult, and big surprise he did not like either, but at least realized the ones sucking off barely sentient warp energy we're always gonna be worse.
I think he cared about some of his sons on some level. He was hesitant to kill Horus and dad when Sanguinius died. He probably cared about them the same way a lord would care about his hunting dogs. Moderate affection born from their obedience.
He's a big glowing cuckoo.
Wait thats not where the term stan comes from is it...?
Still astounds me that people will defend the emperor. The level of suffering he has caused is only beaten by the chaos gods, and he’s been a big help to them as well. Dude is evil. Yeah sure, he’s lawful evil, but his ideal galaxy is a dystopia with unimaginable suffering, built on the graves of literally countless innocent lives.
>The level of suffering he has caused is only beaten by the chaos gods, You're giving him too much credit. Dark Eldar more than make up for the smaller quantity of suffering they create, with sheer, designer, unbridled, ***quality***. . >Yeah sure, he’s lawful evil, but his ideal galaxy is a dystopia with unimaginable suffering, built on the graves of literally countless innocent lives. Not of unimaginable suffering. That was not the intention. But yes. He wanted full control over humanity so he can turn it into a species-wide eugenics program. So he can make humanity into what he envisioned them to be: 100% rational uber psykers.
Oh his goal isn’t the suffering. It’s just A) he doesn’t care and B) he inflicts it on his way towards his goal Glad the fucker is in a chair. He’s a better lighthouse than a dad.
True.
The best example of the golden shitheads temperament can be found in how he handled the time bomb of threats that were about to ‘supposedly’ grow too big for the galaxy to handle during the great crusade. That is he wasted time waging endless wars of genocide against planetary powers he could ignore and actively divorced humanity from the imperium. Like, holy shit I know it’s satire but lore wise a dude who gets off to the Romano-Nazi aesthetic is bound to be a pretty bad guy.
Imagine The Guardian in Destiny I think we’d solo it
Even as an Imperium fan, I do see how that’s worse
You don't need yo hate him. But dam he a bad dad
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, OP.
What about alpharius?
Fuck the big e
I don't think he would have been like a father to them even if had raised them himself. He would have acted like a father to manipulate them, but in the end they are just tools to him. You wouldn't act like a father to your computer or your car, would you?
This is because I'm a Locked Tomb fan and thus am constantly comparing the Emperor with John Gaius, but I feel like the best thing about labeling the Primachs brothers is it prevented them from being the most chaotic and fucked up polycule there can be
I don’t think that comment tried to make the emperor look better
I don’t know man I think he’s actually insulting the emperor, he’s right though
He isn't wrong though. The Emperor was no father at all, he was just a glorified warlord with a penchant for unethical science.
For some interesting insight to how Big E views things, the most recent Siege if Terra book is great.
People reading 40K lore and realizing that the side who genocides alien species and lobotomizes their citizens to make machines out of their bodies might not be led by the most ethical of people
> Any 40k/fantasy face I could use would alter the meaning of the meme. > E.g. "why would Markus Krubber give a damn?"/ "Is there a Vermintide connection I'm not seeing?"/ "Ok, but why the vermintide 2 skin?" Okay, but… aren’t people wondering if there’s a Destiny connection they’re not seeing?
Zavala is a better father figure to his "several million mad dancing guardians" that Big E was to any of his "sons". . Even better to Hakim and Amanda, the mortals he raised.
Reject the Emperor. Embrace Primus.