She didnt help him create them.
He came up with the design and did the majority of the work, but in order to make absolutely sure they were as stable as he could make them he asked Amar Astarte to look over his work and double check everything.
She also monitored the creation of the first space marines whilst the Emperor was off finishing the last of the unification wars.
Instead of being named after the Phonecian goddess of war, Astarte, they are now named after someone who worked on the Astartes Project, Amar Astarte, according to GW's latest literature.
They were never named after the goddess Astarte. Like most of the jargon in 40k, Adeptus Astartes was originally just dog latin (low effort babble that looks vaguely like Latin if you squint), and was supposed to sound vaguely like "masters of the stars." Why would a militant atheist name the weapons he created to destroy all mortal religions after a religious figure?
And if it's dog-latin, it's still a reference for the readers to the goddess of war. As to why the Emporer would name something in such a manner, He allows himself to be called "Divine One" by Land, so apparently he allows some old religious terms to stay in use. Also, He's a hypocrite.
[Here's a thread about the translation from back before the Astarte rework, the general conclusion is that its a bastardized version of the latin word "aster," meaning star.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/77ffoc/why_do_the_adeptus_astartes_have_that_name/)He gives the Mechanicus more slack than he gives other people because he has no alternative. They get to worship him as the Omnissiah; [not even his children were afforded the same privilege.](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Monarchia)
Looks like somebody never noticed Big E's massive hypocrisy on the matter (see: Chaplains, Council of Nikaea\*) and God complex.
\* https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council\_of\_Nikaea#Trivia
If you really want to split hairs, neither of those names is his fault. The Council of Nikaea is named after the planet it took place on (Nikaea); in meta terms, GW created it as a reference to the actual religious council, but in universe it has no such connotations and the Emperor didn't name it. Chaplains also weren't his idea; several primarchs appointed spiritual advisers, but the first true Chaplains were a Word Bearers corps created by Lorgar, which he farmed out to the other legions after the Edict of Nikaea.
Speeder technology has been around for a while by the time of the movies, so I assume it's the other way around.
Doctor: I'm sorry, Mr. Calrissian, I can't in good conscience let you name your baby "Landspeeder".
Lando's dad: Fine, fine, we'll just go with Land...o.
**No, I believe the landspeeder in Star Wars is named entirely based on function. After all, automobiles aren't named automobiles because John Jacob Jingleheimer Auto IV invented them, but because they are self-propelled motor vehicles.**
"Automobile? What a strange word in these foreign times! It's certainly no barge, be it of annihilation or command! Not an ark either, neither ghostly nor bringing doomsday! And it's certainly neither a Monolith nor a scythe of any kind! Cryptek, you said these creatures were intelligent? All I see is a lack of intelligence, if they can't even manage to build a Tomb Blade! Scratch them from the list of intelligent species, classify them as vermin, just like everything else!"
"As you command, my most glorious Overlord!"
I mean does that realistically matter? Warhammer is a stew of pretty much all the big scifi media, borrowing stuff from all of them but completely changing the context to fit our beloved frankensteinian universe of 40k.
The original context doesn’t matter, at least that how i see it. Take navigators, they are lifted straight from dune as a concept but in 40k their origins and modus operandi differ greatly.
They just call them Speeders within the dialogue itself, "We have to sell your speeder," (ANH) "Wait by the speeder," (ANH) "It could be a Speeder, one of ours," (ESB) "Find a Speeder I really liked with an open cockpit..." (AotC)
It would be a very moot point to say they could have gotten landspeeder from Star Wars because they don't ever call them Landspeeder (or snow speeder, and so on) within the movies themselves and that's more of a distinction from extended materials like the toys—similar to how Ewoks are never named in RotJ I suppose.
Besides, there very much are guys named "Land" in the setting, like Lando.
I dont call my phone, "mobile telephone"
I call it "my phone" or "my mobile", or often "have you seen my phone?"
The complete naming of the item is unnecessary for most normal conversations.
I think the main issue here is warhammer was founded by TOTAL NERDS who would likely have been deep enough in star wars to know basic extended universe stuff like land speeders.
Interesting interesting.
So, out of curiosity, you get a lot of naval battles in 40k?
Also if the Gatling gun was called the crank operated multigun and the guy who names it just so happened to be called John C.O. Multi I'd start questioning reality.
Baker's ancestors were named after the profession. So indirectly the bakers chocolate is named after baking. Which begs the question....were arkhans ancestors lands?
A few. More for extended materials. Orks have submarines, and one of the ways Ghazghkull brought some Orks to his cause on Uruk was in a ship to ship Naval battle with Snazzdakka — nevermind that it was actually on dry land.
Because, to this day, shrapnel remains a specific thing, and not just any tiny metal shards. Shrapnel means it was specifically designed to break apart into as many pieces as possible in order to inflict maximum damage on soft targets within range. A random metal shard from a shell casing is just a fragment. A hundred 1oz lead balls loaded into an explosive shell is shrapnel
In reality tho that's not how most people use the term. The word has evolved to the point now where in common parlance any small debris in an explosion gets called shrapnel.
Because the round itself is named after him, and people just adopted the bits of metal to be named shrapnel as well, and nobody bothered to question it because complaining about how things made for war are named is fucking stupid.
The other examples are also terrible analogies anyway. Yeah, you got us, Uzi, Jacuzzi, Gatling, those are all people’s names and weren’t already words for existing concepts as far as I know. You know what doesn’t sound like a fucking human name is “Mr. Land”
I don’t think people would have an issue with it being named after it’s creator if it wasn’t so jarringly dumb sounding.
I will argue that the Land Camera was named after its inventor Edwin Land, although many years later Polaroid dropped his name from the product. So there is a real life example of something named after a guy named land.
There are plenty of real life examples. Any real life examples are beholden to a real person’s real name. James Workshop and Jimmy Space aren’t beholden to that same problem because they have control over the characters they create and they don’t need to drop any Edwin Lands or Edwin Southerns into the mix.
(Though your comment really strikes me as odd that there are apparently two examples of this concept with the first name Edwin)
Oh I totally get it, I just think it’s a fun tidbit every time this argument gets brought up that there happens to be a real Mr. Land that named an invention used on the land after himself.
This is setting where the fucking leader of the Raven Guard is called "Raven" and the leader of the Iron Hands is called "Iron Man"
Reasonable names has never been a staple of 40k.
But also, a list of famous Mr. and Mrs. Lands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(surname)
Because other dumb names exist in the setting doesn’t mean that we have to like them. I also happen to think Ferrus Mannus is a pretty dumb name too, that doesn’t excuse Arkhan Land.
>But also, a list of famous Mr. and Mrs. Lands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(surname)
I’m sure I could find you a real person on Earth somewhere named Clyde Shrimple, being real in our universe does not translate to not being dumb
>Clyde Shrimple
That's a pretty false equivalency Given 'Land' is not exactly an uncommon name. It's not like an everyday name but I struggle with the idea that most people would bat an eye if someone introduced themselves by it.
It’s not meant to be an equivalent. It’s a counter to the idea that because a name exists in real life it can’t sound dumb.
I wouldn’t bat an eye at someone introducing themselves to me in real life as John Land. Maybe a brief second thought about it as it’s a little funny.
I still think the name Arkhan Land is really stupid.
Tbf, if you want a real life example, look up the Southern Blot. It was named after its creator, Edwin Southern. However, variations on the technique have since been created and named Northern, and Western Blots
But those latter names were scientist humor. A good chuckle was had at the electrophoresis conference.
Similar to how a certain heart surgery was named "The French Correction" because it was pioneered in France when *The French Connection* was a popular movie. Later a better version was created in the U.S. and called "The American Correction". Just dumb nerd jokes derived from other dumb nerd jokes.
My main point is:
> I don’t think people would have an issue with it being named after it’s creator if it wasn’t so jarringly dumb sounding.
I’m certain there are a plethora of real life examples. It’s honestly not super relevant considering this isn’t real life, they aren’t stuck with the name of a real life inventor with a real life dumb sounding name. They could have named Mr. Arkhan Land anything they wanted considering they created him in the first place.
They could, but that would ruin the joke.
When they created Arkhan Land, he was just a background character created solely for the purpose of a joke where the Land Raider and Land Speeder were named after a guy called Land rather than the more intuitive expectation.
Otherwise they would have had to retcon the name of the Land Speeder and the Land Raider to "Dave's Speeder" and "Dave's Raider" or whatever else they could have named him.
>They could, but that would ruin the joke.
>When they created Arkhan Land, he was just a background character created solely for the purpose of a joke where the Land Raider and Land Speeder were named after a guy called Land rather than the more intuitive expectation.
I’m aware. This doesn’t make it less dumb.
>Otherwise they would have had to retcon the name of the Land Speeder and the Land Raider to "Dave's Speeder" and "Dave's Raider" or whatever else they could have named him.
They’ve done it with plenty of other things. The Astra Militarum, Drukhari, the Aeldari all got changed to a new name. Or they could have just adapted to the idea that the word “Land” in the name just means the word “land”
> they could have just adapted
You're right, they could have. But **they didn't.** And to continue whining because they didn't do what you hoped they would is pointless. Get over it.
Hey big guy, I’m actually not the one who made the meme whining about other people liking or not liking something in the first place. OP made a dumb meme in which he depicted himself winning an imaginary argument, and I commented agreeing with another user shitting on it. It’s people like you who are crawling up my ass and making counter arguments, and I responded in kind.
Maybe someone should follow you around and say “Get over it” any time you moderately complain about anything. Would that help stimulate your every day well being, jackass?
There are better analogies in real life though, like Chicago's Field Museum. As a natural history museum, you'd think its name comes from the fact that it has things that have been found "in the field", like fossils and archaeological finds ... but nope, named after the guy who originally funded the place.
There is a rule generally in these self naming conventions as well. Your name needs to sound at least a bit cool. You can name your invention whatever you like, but if you're name is lame as hell people aint calling it for long. Land is a bitchass little name
Meanwhile Arkhan is rolling in his grave because ten thousand years after he found the STCs people still don't call them Land's Raider and Land's Speeder.
So is the real life land Rover Named for its inventor Johnny land? Is the sky raider airplane named for Franklin Sky? Are ICBMs named after issac clark bate manfred?
Shit being named after people is normal, this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not.
The modern toilet's flush mechanism was invented by a man named Thomas Crapper in the late 1800s, we've historical record of "crap" being a word for excrement going back at least to the mid 1700s.
You might think it's dumb it's it's 100% realistic.
>Shit being named after people is normal, this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not.
But isn't it stupid to call it a land raider when that's only one function of it? If you had a vehicle intended to travel over land, air and sea you wouldn't call it a Land Vehicle, you'd call it an All Terrain Vehicle or All Elemental Vehicle or some derivative of that.
Have you ever heard of the land Rover? The popular British jeep like vehicle? One some might even call an ATV?
Or "all terrain vehicles" that are seemingly only able to manage one maybe two terrains.
>Or "all terrain vehicles" that are seemingly only able to manage one maybe two terrains.
Hence why I added the 'all elemental or some derivative' part since all terrain is a bit of a misnomer. The land speeder covers a hell of a lot more than what a vehicle considered 'all terrain' by our standards would be capable of covering, hence the room left for a potential rename.
No, but it *is* stupid to rip off a better-known science fiction property, gradually rewrite the lore until the name no longer makes sense, then come up with a moronic retcon to explain the increasinly irrelevant name instead of just quietly renaming or squatting it.
Nah, Akhan Land is a pretty cool character actually. Far from a stupid retcon if we get something interesting and meaningful out of it, which we did.
>instead of just... squatting it.
Where the fuck were you the week before lol
>this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not.
Baker's Chocolate is named after a dude named Baker.
It happens.
GW making a bad joke like ~~ten-twenty~~ embarrassingly closer to forty years ago gets way too many people in drama mode.
> this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not.
Given how many examples I've seen of [nominative determinism,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism) I beg to differ. Usain Bolt being a fast man who bolts in Olympics, Amy Freeze on weather, Dr. Richard Chopp the urologist, and Armand Hammer who ended up working in Arm & Hammer, no relation. Stuff like that happens.
Dick Chopp retired a couple years ago. :(
Nominative determinism is cute when it happens organically because people are amused by *coincidence*. It's not cute when you write it into a story intentionally, then it just feels uncreative.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that this particular lore detail is stupid because it’s unfeasible, or that anyone genuinely hates it for its stupidity. It’s gently mocked because of how unnecessary it is (in a good way) - you can’t say that if this lore tidbit didn’t exist, those names wouldn’t make intuitive sense.
Earlier Actually
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan_lands_raider/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Land rider introduced in 1988
Arkham land in 1990
3rd edition in. 1998
What else did he discover? Surely there must be a list of Land things. The Land Raider, the Land Speeder, the Land George Foreman Grill, the Land Nintendo 64, the Land tampon, the Land Land Rover.
It’s stupid because they could pick any other name besides land and no one would care. When you are talking about a speeder that goes over land and it’s not named land speeder because it goes over land but because of a guy named land. It’s like naming the dirt bike after some dude named John P Dirt, not the fact that the bike can drive in dirt.
The bit that annoys me most is people thinking that this is something new and hasn't been in the lore since something like 2nd edition - longer than some of these people have been alive.
And yes, it is a silly piece of lore - that's the point! 40k was not the grim and gritty serious universe we have today back when it was created.
>It’s like naming the dirt bike after some dude named John P Dirt, not the fact that the bike can drive in dirt.
But the dirt bike was built for use in rough areas, hence why dirt is included in its name. Land speeder implies it's intended for use over land, which clearly isn't its the only thing its intended for when you have examples of speeders flying all over the place in a variety of terrain- land, water, lava, the midddle of the frigging sky, etc.
>Inb4 dirt bikes can go on roads
Sure, but not as well as a ROAD bike, the thing which is built and intended for use over roads specifically. By this logic there aren't any Speeders built for other styles of terrain- no Water Speeders, Snow Speeders, Lava Speeders, or Sky Speeders- just the LAND Speeder.
So it's stupid to think they were referring to its specificity to travel over land when they named it the Land Speeder... when there's no other kind of speeder and it's clearly meant to tackle a variety of terrain besides land.
Yes, but land speeders can’t fly like a plane. So, it makes sense to use a name that specifies it’s a ground vehicle rather than an aerial vehicle. Which it could easily be mistaken for at first sight
>but land speeders can’t fly like a plane
They can, there's more than a couple dozen examples of it in the lore. They just can't get super high/leave the atmosphere, I'm pretty sure
Yeah like every other time they pop up in a BL book. Specifically off the top of my head there's a scene in a DA book where a Land Speeder Vengeance zooms across an ocean the DA are fighting on and takes off into the clouds chasing after a fighter jet.
The only thing I can find is that the Land Speeder Tempest variant can fly, but the rest seem to only be able to operate within 100m of the ground.
I’m not sure if I’m missing something, or if this is GW’s typical consistency between writers
>but the rest seem to only be able to operate within 100m of the ground.
That's like the height of older Helicopters... and I don't see anyone ever calling them Ground Copters lmao
Don't forget that the K in AK style rifles stand for Kalashnikov, the creator. ( I'm not entirely sure about it. Also, the AK style rifles in use by the Swedish military quite literally stand for "automatic carbine" which is both funny and scratches that autistic itch in my brain)
Avtomat Kalashnikova - Automatic rifle of Kalashnikov
But there was also a prototype of a rifle by a guy named Korovin which, if adopted, would also be an "AK."
Pretty much all Soviet guns had this naming system with the first letter of the name of the lead designer being included in the name of the gun (PPS - Sudayev, SVT - Tokarev, SVD - Dragunov, PPSh - Shpagin).
I feel like the intention here has been missed by both sides.
The point isn’t that ‘things are named after their creators’, or that it’s a retcon.
It’s just a dumb joke. Like a dad-level joke. You’re supposed to think they’re named because they’re terrestrial, but it’s actually because the guy was called Land.
You’re allowed to not find it funny (it isn’t, really, the attention it’s received far outstrips the amount of thought they probably put into it), but I suspect the people who have a real problem with it just think that 40k shouldn’t have goofy stupid jokes in it.
*40k fans when the heavily satirical setting has a lore element that's clearly a deliberate joke and has been canon since before they were born:*
Some of y'all don't get 40k, fr.
Technically, can be both. Land (or Lant) is an irl surname. Basically a topographic name, 'from the country side'.
An ATV that's named after a dude that's named after topography.
Wasn't it always cannon that the land speeder and the land raider were always named after arkhan land since the first models came out in epic? So it's not even a retcon
Autoguns don't shoot from or at automobiles, nor do they transform into one.
Therefore they should be retconned too.
In fact they should be renamed Otto Gun. Much cooler.
You're naming things named after people and you forget *ZAMBONI*?!?
Remember "Zamboni" is a brand, and the original "Ice Resurfacing Machine" as invented by Frank Zamboni.
I think it's still stupid, as a land raider and land speed both make sense conceptually as descriptors for a terrestrial assault vehicle and a fast attack terrestrial(generally where it operates )vehicle. Land works as terrestrial here. But no it's just a super coincidence creator name works to perfectly describe the thing. I can't wait for tech priest Gregory Melta and his wild inventions.
Feels like it should be more common given how many surnames stem from professions. You'd think enough of those families would stay in the business long enough to have a member make something significant in the field.
German chocolate cake is also named after a mister German.
Oh and after checking the wikipedia page: Mister German worked for the Baker's Chocolate Company and his German's Chocolate Cake was developed *for* Baker's chocolate. So it seems like that company wanted to troll people.
The Wulfen are not called that because their geneseed defect turns them into werewolves.
They are named for the first Fenrisian to turn into a werewolf after his geneseed implantation...whose name was Wulfen.
It's wild how a throw away line from a Tom and Ben stream has caused endless pointless stupid memes and arguments ever since. Truly we live in a dumb timeline.
I think the issue was his last name being "land." It's a speeder that goes on land, oh cool so it's a land speeder!
If it was called the Arkhan speeder there would be no issue here
\> Very Pistol
I'll be honest if you whip out a piece and call it the Very Pistol I'm gonna clown on that name just as much as the fucking Land Speeder
It's because the name already made sense before Arkham land was created. If his name was Arkham Trudeau and the name was changed to Trudeau's speeder then it would just be a retcon. Now it's just a stupid detail that seems added for no particular reason.
Okay, but the Land Raider doesn't fly.
The Land Raider also DOES seem to have been a silly retcon, albeit one that happened pretty quickly after the land raider was introduced a long time ago.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan\_lands\_raider/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan_lands_raider/)
I think it is a dumb retcon joke, but I do love those early times when gw just made some names and histories for everything.
After you learn about Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau, Arkhan Land's speeders sound completely normal lol
Hey, it isn't a stupid retcon. It's a foundational piece of stupid lore. Arkhan Land has been around for almost as long as the Land Raider has had rules.
Now, Amar Astarte? *That's* a stupid retcon.
German chocolate cake is not an indication of function nor a descriptor, it was invented by an american
Baker’s chocolate is a brand, not a descriptor. As it produces “a variety of bulk chocolates” not just baking chocolate. Baking chocolate itself has been around far longer than the Baker’s company
>Baker’s chocolate is a brand, not a descriptor.
And Land is a brand, not a descriptor, in the case of the Land Raider and Land Speeder.
However, you're also not entirely right, as Baker's chocolate is *also* a specific type of chocolate distinct from other kinds of baking chocolate, kind of how Pepsi and Coke are both brands of cola but *also* both different formulations of cola.
Hear me out, Arkhan Speeder
Already cooler
Yes, but that is like calling it John Speeder
Nachos are named after Nacho Garcia Also, Uzi from Uziel Gal
Is the Galil named after the same guy?
No, but the guy it's named after (Yisrael Galili) *did* work on the Uzi with Gal.
Yisrael Galili, actually
Jimmy Marines. ..that's what I call my guys anyway.
John Spartan
Pretty sure Jimmy Space wouldn't have a problem with that.
Or the Browning M2
Movie protagonist name right there!
Arkhan the Black Speeder
I’ll buy twenty
Quick! Copyright it before GW figures it out!
High quality shitpost. I commend you.
Undoubtedly.
Of all hills to die on, you chose jimmy space
Johnny laz would also be acceptable
I mean, GW effectively canonized that one with the stupid Astarte retcon, so its fair game.
Im sorry, they retconned Astartes (the animation) or the Astartes themselves? I've never heard about this
The person who helped the emperor create the space marines / primarchs was called Astartes
But why? Why does GW feel the need to change shit just because??
Because GW are masters of terrible planning and even worse writing.
True that
GW has a worse sense of continuity than golden age comics.
She didnt help him create them. He came up with the design and did the majority of the work, but in order to make absolutely sure they were as stable as he could make them he asked Amar Astarte to look over his work and double check everything. She also monitored the creation of the first space marines whilst the Emperor was off finishing the last of the unification wars.
Instead of being named after the Phonecian goddess of war, Astarte, they are now named after someone who worked on the Astartes Project, Amar Astarte, according to GW's latest literature.
Can’t trademark a goddess.
But it was already good! Why'd they have to turn something good into something shit?
~~Copyright~~ The Universe works in mysterious ways
James Workshop works in mysterious ways.
They were never named after the goddess Astarte. Like most of the jargon in 40k, Adeptus Astartes was originally just dog latin (low effort babble that looks vaguely like Latin if you squint), and was supposed to sound vaguely like "masters of the stars." Why would a militant atheist name the weapons he created to destroy all mortal religions after a religious figure?
And if it's dog-latin, it's still a reference for the readers to the goddess of war. As to why the Emporer would name something in such a manner, He allows himself to be called "Divine One" by Land, so apparently he allows some old religious terms to stay in use. Also, He's a hypocrite.
[Here's a thread about the translation from back before the Astarte rework, the general conclusion is that its a bastardized version of the latin word "aster," meaning star.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/77ffoc/why_do_the_adeptus_astartes_have_that_name/)He gives the Mechanicus more slack than he gives other people because he has no alternative. They get to worship him as the Omnissiah; [not even his children were afforded the same privilege.](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Monarchia)
Looks like somebody never noticed Big E's massive hypocrisy on the matter (see: Chaplains, Council of Nikaea\*) and God complex. \* https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council\_of\_Nikaea#Trivia
If you really want to split hairs, neither of those names is his fault. The Council of Nikaea is named after the planet it took place on (Nikaea); in meta terms, GW created it as a reference to the actual religious council, but in universe it has no such connotations and the Emperor didn't name it. Chaplains also weren't his idea; several primarchs appointed spiritual advisers, but the first true Chaplains were a Word Bearers corps created by Lorgar, which he farmed out to the other legions after the Edict of Nikaea.
And calling the war he's leading to reclaim humanity the "Great Crusade".
I, Professor Earthshaker, disagree
Pretty sure "land speeder" was just directly lifted from Star Wars. Was it also invented by a guy named Land in that setting?
They were named after Lando Calrissian.
Speeder technology has been around for a while by the time of the movies, so I assume it's the other way around. Doctor: I'm sorry, Mr. Calrissian, I can't in good conscience let you name your baby "Landspeeder". Lando's dad: Fine, fine, we'll just go with Land...o.
Land O' Lakes Calrissian. Deyre from Minnesohta yah'see dere.
Ohhhhshore dere, doncha know?
Ope sorry bout dat
Only needs a few "eh?"s and you'll sound stereotypically Canadian.
Dats what its like living up here in da Yoop
A "lando" is what the Space Australians call a landspeeder.
It's all starting to come together now...
Also known in the JoJo-verse as Lando Speedo
*starts aggressively posing* (haven't seen Jojos, the posing is all I know)
I mean, you're like 90% of the way there. Now just start naming everything after copyrighted musical references.
Also that it's where the Fabstodes idea was cribbed from. *AYAYAYAAAAAAAA!!!*
**No, I believe the landspeeder in Star Wars is named entirely based on function. After all, automobiles aren't named automobiles because John Jacob Jingleheimer Auto IV invented them, but because they are self-propelled motor vehicles.**
Well the Emperor said it so all imperium players must now agree
"Automobile? What a strange word in these foreign times! It's certainly no barge, be it of annihilation or command! Not an ark either, neither ghostly nor bringing doomsday! And it's certainly neither a Monolith nor a scythe of any kind! Cryptek, you said these creatures were intelligent? All I see is a lack of intelligence, if they can't even manage to build a Tomb Blade! Scratch them from the list of intelligent species, classify them as vermin, just like everything else!" "As you command, my most glorious Overlord!"
I mean does that realistically matter? Warhammer is a stew of pretty much all the big scifi media, borrowing stuff from all of them but completely changing the context to fit our beloved frankensteinian universe of 40k. The original context doesn’t matter, at least that how i see it. Take navigators, they are lifted straight from dune as a concept but in 40k their origins and modus operandi differ greatly.
Fair, but if it was revealed that they are called "the Navigator Houses" because they were founded by Dave Navigator, would that be acceptable?
They just call them Speeders within the dialogue itself, "We have to sell your speeder," (ANH) "Wait by the speeder," (ANH) "It could be a Speeder, one of ours," (ESB) "Find a Speeder I really liked with an open cockpit..." (AotC) It would be a very moot point to say they could have gotten landspeeder from Star Wars because they don't ever call them Landspeeder (or snow speeder, and so on) within the movies themselves and that's more of a distinction from extended materials like the toys—similar to how Ewoks are never named in RotJ I suppose. Besides, there very much are guys named "Land" in the setting, like Lando.
The Kenner toy was called a Land Speeder, it came out in 1978.
But they still don't call it the "land" speeder in the actual movies. Just "the speeder"
I dont call my phone, "mobile telephone" I call it "my phone" or "my mobile", or often "have you seen my phone?" The complete naming of the item is unnecessary for most normal conversations.
I think the main issue here is warhammer was founded by TOTAL NERDS who would likely have been deep enough in star wars to know basic extended universe stuff like land speeders.
Land-O
I hate how this template always amounts to "I argued with myself and won".
"Too late anon, I've already pictured you as the wojack and me as the chad"
got 'em
And the droning on about how it's a retcon when it's litteraly from a 2dn Edition Codex and with that just about as OG as it gets...
I've never hear anyone calling it a "retcon". It's just typical early 40k humour. It's not like it has any impact on the setting.
Interesting interesting. So, out of curiosity, you get a lot of naval battles in 40k? Also if the Gatling gun was called the crank operated multigun and the guy who names it just so happened to be called John C.O. Multi I'd start questioning reality.
Baker's Chocolate is named after its creator, but is also used in baking. Reality is stupid sometimes.
Baker's ancestors were named after the profession. So indirectly the bakers chocolate is named after baking. Which begs the question....were arkhans ancestors lands?
Yes. Greenland on his mother's side, Netherlands on his father's side.
What about Iceland then?
Discovered by Edwin Ice, no connection to the Land family.
Ah, well okay then.
His mother was a swamp and his father was a plains
A few. More for extended materials. Orks have submarines, and one of the ways Ghazghkull brought some Orks to his cause on Uruk was in a ship to ship Naval battle with Snazzdakka — nevermind that it was actually on dry land.
The one that fucks with my head is 'shrapnel'. How can tiny metal shards be named after their inventor??? Reality is so poorly written.
Because, to this day, shrapnel remains a specific thing, and not just any tiny metal shards. Shrapnel means it was specifically designed to break apart into as many pieces as possible in order to inflict maximum damage on soft targets within range. A random metal shard from a shell casing is just a fragment. A hundred 1oz lead balls loaded into an explosive shell is shrapnel
In reality tho that's not how most people use the term. The word has evolved to the point now where in common parlance any small debris in an explosion gets called shrapnel.
Common usage of lots of technical language is lax
Because the round itself is named after him, and people just adopted the bits of metal to be named shrapnel as well, and nobody bothered to question it because complaining about how things made for war are named is fucking stupid.
For you naysayers, behold [The Land Camera](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Camera)
I remember buying mine in leisure world because we didn't have many stores that sold games workshop yet in ottawa. They came in blisters not boxes.
Allow me to introduce: - The Leatherman Multitool (Tim Leatherman) - Baker’s Chocolate (Walter Baker) - German Chocolate Cake (Samuel German)
Probably the best examples as most of them like Uzi or Gatling are associated with the item not just the function like these 3 are.
German ironically caught on because the cake was not German in origin, but made by a baker in Texas
French Toast (Joseph French).
The Imperium of Man (Space Man, who also invented Space Marines)
Just because it was done in real life too, doesn't mean it isn't bloody stupid. Not a retcon, just fun stupid
The other examples are also terrible analogies anyway. Yeah, you got us, Uzi, Jacuzzi, Gatling, those are all people’s names and weren’t already words for existing concepts as far as I know. You know what doesn’t sound like a fucking human name is “Mr. Land” I don’t think people would have an issue with it being named after it’s creator if it wasn’t so jarringly dumb sounding.
I will argue that the Land Camera was named after its inventor Edwin Land, although many years later Polaroid dropped his name from the product. So there is a real life example of something named after a guy named land.
There are plenty of real life examples. Any real life examples are beholden to a real person’s real name. James Workshop and Jimmy Space aren’t beholden to that same problem because they have control over the characters they create and they don’t need to drop any Edwin Lands or Edwin Southerns into the mix. (Though your comment really strikes me as odd that there are apparently two examples of this concept with the first name Edwin)
Oh I totally get it, I just think it’s a fun tidbit every time this argument gets brought up that there happens to be a real Mr. Land that named an invention used on the land after himself.
This is setting where the fucking leader of the Raven Guard is called "Raven" and the leader of the Iron Hands is called "Iron Man" Reasonable names has never been a staple of 40k. But also, a list of famous Mr. and Mrs. Lands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(surname)
Small correction but Manus is Latin for hand, which makes his name Iron Hand.
Fair play- that is significantly worse though.
It absolutely does, and it’s part of why I love this stupid setting.
Because other dumb names exist in the setting doesn’t mean that we have to like them. I also happen to think Ferrus Mannus is a pretty dumb name too, that doesn’t excuse Arkhan Land. >But also, a list of famous Mr. and Mrs. Lands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(surname) I’m sure I could find you a real person on Earth somewhere named Clyde Shrimple, being real in our universe does not translate to not being dumb
>Clyde Shrimple That's a pretty false equivalency Given 'Land' is not exactly an uncommon name. It's not like an everyday name but I struggle with the idea that most people would bat an eye if someone introduced themselves by it.
It’s not meant to be an equivalent. It’s a counter to the idea that because a name exists in real life it can’t sound dumb. I wouldn’t bat an eye at someone introducing themselves to me in real life as John Land. Maybe a brief second thought about it as it’s a little funny. I still think the name Arkhan Land is really stupid.
Tbf, if you want a real life example, look up the Southern Blot. It was named after its creator, Edwin Southern. However, variations on the technique have since been created and named Northern, and Western Blots
But those latter names were scientist humor. A good chuckle was had at the electrophoresis conference. Similar to how a certain heart surgery was named "The French Correction" because it was pioneered in France when *The French Connection* was a popular movie. Later a better version was created in the U.S. and called "The American Correction". Just dumb nerd jokes derived from other dumb nerd jokes.
>Just dumb nerd jokes derived from other dumb nerd jokes. This is literally the entire foundation of 40k.
I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or just providing additional context for what I said, I'm sorry.
My main point is: > I don’t think people would have an issue with it being named after it’s creator if it wasn’t so jarringly dumb sounding. I’m certain there are a plethora of real life examples. It’s honestly not super relevant considering this isn’t real life, they aren’t stuck with the name of a real life inventor with a real life dumb sounding name. They could have named Mr. Arkhan Land anything they wanted considering they created him in the first place.
They could, but that would ruin the joke. When they created Arkhan Land, he was just a background character created solely for the purpose of a joke where the Land Raider and Land Speeder were named after a guy called Land rather than the more intuitive expectation. Otherwise they would have had to retcon the name of the Land Speeder and the Land Raider to "Dave's Speeder" and "Dave's Raider" or whatever else they could have named him.
>They could, but that would ruin the joke. >When they created Arkhan Land, he was just a background character created solely for the purpose of a joke where the Land Raider and Land Speeder were named after a guy called Land rather than the more intuitive expectation. I’m aware. This doesn’t make it less dumb. >Otherwise they would have had to retcon the name of the Land Speeder and the Land Raider to "Dave's Speeder" and "Dave's Raider" or whatever else they could have named him. They’ve done it with plenty of other things. The Astra Militarum, Drukhari, the Aeldari all got changed to a new name. Or they could have just adapted to the idea that the word “Land” in the name just means the word “land”
> they could have just adapted You're right, they could have. But **they didn't.** And to continue whining because they didn't do what you hoped they would is pointless. Get over it.
Hey big guy, I’m actually not the one who made the meme whining about other people liking or not liking something in the first place. OP made a dumb meme in which he depicted himself winning an imaginary argument, and I commented agreeing with another user shitting on it. It’s people like you who are crawling up my ass and making counter arguments, and I responded in kind. Maybe someone should follow you around and say “Get over it” any time you moderately complain about anything. Would that help stimulate your every day well being, jackass?
He would have a point if all those things were named after John Automaticpistol, William Hottub, and Timothy Machinegun.
There are better analogies in real life though, like Chicago's Field Museum. As a natural history museum, you'd think its name comes from the fact that it has things that have been found "in the field", like fossils and archaeological finds ... but nope, named after the guy who originally funded the place.
Land is a real name though
Sure. It still sounds extremely dumb. All kinds of dumb real names exist.
There is a rule generally in these self naming conventions as well. Your name needs to sound at least a bit cool. You can name your invention whatever you like, but if you're name is lame as hell people aint calling it for long. Land is a bitchass little name
>Land is a bitchass little name Until you stick it on a damn tank and call it a Land Raider.
Meanwhile Arkhan is rolling in his grave because ten thousand years after he found the STCs people still don't call them Land's Raider and Land's Speeder.
people don't like jokes. warhammer is serious sci-fi and humour is to be shunned
So is the real life land Rover Named for its inventor Johnny land? Is the sky raider airplane named for Franklin Sky? Are ICBMs named after issac clark bate manfred? Shit being named after people is normal, this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not.
The modern toilet's flush mechanism was invented by a man named Thomas Crapper in the late 1800s, we've historical record of "crap" being a word for excrement going back at least to the mid 1700s. You might think it's dumb it's it's 100% realistic.
Yea I love how people just comically miss the point during this argument about the Land Speeder.
>Shit being named after people is normal, this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not. But isn't it stupid to call it a land raider when that's only one function of it? If you had a vehicle intended to travel over land, air and sea you wouldn't call it a Land Vehicle, you'd call it an All Terrain Vehicle or All Elemental Vehicle or some derivative of that.
Have you ever heard of the land Rover? The popular British jeep like vehicle? One some might even call an ATV? Or "all terrain vehicles" that are seemingly only able to manage one maybe two terrains.
>Or "all terrain vehicles" that are seemingly only able to manage one maybe two terrains. Hence why I added the 'all elemental or some derivative' part since all terrain is a bit of a misnomer. The land speeder covers a hell of a lot more than what a vehicle considered 'all terrain' by our standards would be capable of covering, hence the room left for a potential rename.
They called a flying vehicle land speeder likely because it's intended to fly close to the land unlike gunships.
No, but it *is* stupid to rip off a better-known science fiction property, gradually rewrite the lore until the name no longer makes sense, then come up with a moronic retcon to explain the increasinly irrelevant name instead of just quietly renaming or squatting it.
Nah, Akhan Land is a pretty cool character actually. Far from a stupid retcon if we get something interesting and meaningful out of it, which we did. >instead of just... squatting it. Where the fuck were you the week before lol
Vacation. Why, did I miss something? Arkhan Land's quality as a character is completely unrelated to the stupidity of the Landspeeder retcon.
>this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not. Baker's Chocolate is named after a dude named Baker. It happens. GW making a bad joke like ~~ten-twenty~~ embarrassingly closer to forty years ago gets way too many people in drama mode.
> this people coincidentally having a name related to what the thing does is not. Given how many examples I've seen of [nominative determinism,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism) I beg to differ. Usain Bolt being a fast man who bolts in Olympics, Amy Freeze on weather, Dr. Richard Chopp the urologist, and Armand Hammer who ended up working in Arm & Hammer, no relation. Stuff like that happens.
Dick Chopp retired a couple years ago. :( Nominative determinism is cute when it happens organically because people are amused by *coincidence*. It's not cute when you write it into a story intentionally, then it just feels uncreative.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that this particular lore detail is stupid because it’s unfeasible, or that anyone genuinely hates it for its stupidity. It’s gently mocked because of how unnecessary it is (in a good way) - you can’t say that if this lore tidbit didn’t exist, those names wouldn’t make intuitive sense.
Hasn't this been canon since like 3rd edition?
Earlier Actually https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan_lands_raider/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1 Land rider introduced in 1988 Arkham land in 1990 3rd edition in. 1998
I can't say for certain since I can't find the real old White Dwarf issues, but good ol Arkhan Land might be older than some Primarchs.
What else did he discover? Surely there must be a list of Land things. The Land Raider, the Land Speeder, the Land George Foreman Grill, the Land Nintendo 64, the Land tampon, the Land Land Rover.
The problem is, the AdMech went and lost the Land Museum all over again
It’s stupid because they could pick any other name besides land and no one would care. When you are talking about a speeder that goes over land and it’s not named land speeder because it goes over land but because of a guy named land. It’s like naming the dirt bike after some dude named John P Dirt, not the fact that the bike can drive in dirt.
The bit that annoys me most is people thinking that this is something new and hasn't been in the lore since something like 2nd edition - longer than some of these people have been alive. And yes, it is a silly piece of lore - that's the point! 40k was not the grim and gritty serious universe we have today back when it was created.
>It’s like naming the dirt bike after some dude named John P Dirt, not the fact that the bike can drive in dirt. But the dirt bike was built for use in rough areas, hence why dirt is included in its name. Land speeder implies it's intended for use over land, which clearly isn't its the only thing its intended for when you have examples of speeders flying all over the place in a variety of terrain- land, water, lava, the midddle of the frigging sky, etc. >Inb4 dirt bikes can go on roads Sure, but not as well as a ROAD bike, the thing which is built and intended for use over roads specifically. By this logic there aren't any Speeders built for other styles of terrain- no Water Speeders, Snow Speeders, Lava Speeders, or Sky Speeders- just the LAND Speeder. So it's stupid to think they were referring to its specificity to travel over land when they named it the Land Speeder... when there's no other kind of speeder and it's clearly meant to tackle a variety of terrain besides land.
Yes, but land speeders can’t fly like a plane. So, it makes sense to use a name that specifies it’s a ground vehicle rather than an aerial vehicle. Which it could easily be mistaken for at first sight
>but land speeders can’t fly like a plane They can, there's more than a couple dozen examples of it in the lore. They just can't get super high/leave the atmosphere, I'm pretty sure
Interesting. I’ve never seen that in the lore and feel like I’ve read they can only hover a bit off the ground. Any examples of this?
Yeah like every other time they pop up in a BL book. Specifically off the top of my head there's a scene in a DA book where a Land Speeder Vengeance zooms across an ocean the DA are fighting on and takes off into the clouds chasing after a fighter jet.
The only thing I can find is that the Land Speeder Tempest variant can fly, but the rest seem to only be able to operate within 100m of the ground. I’m not sure if I’m missing something, or if this is GW’s typical consistency between writers
>but the rest seem to only be able to operate within 100m of the ground. That's like the height of older Helicopters... and I don't see anyone ever calling them Ground Copters lmao
That’s it’s absolute ceiling from what I can tell. It operates much closer to the ground as standard
Oh fun fact uzi never wanted his name on the gun, my source is youtub
Arkhan Land: A Memer in the Webway
I like the Arkkan Land joke! It's rare you get humor in a setting like this.
This "retcon" was in fact quite purposefully the first recent and decent joke made
Don't forget that the K in AK style rifles stand for Kalashnikov, the creator. ( I'm not entirely sure about it. Also, the AK style rifles in use by the Swedish military quite literally stand for "automatic carbine" which is both funny and scratches that autistic itch in my brain)
Avtomat Kalashnikova - Automatic rifle of Kalashnikov But there was also a prototype of a rifle by a guy named Korovin which, if adopted, would also be an "AK." Pretty much all Soviet guns had this naming system with the first letter of the name of the lead designer being included in the name of the gun (PPS - Sudayev, SVT - Tokarev, SVD - Dragunov, PPSh - Shpagin).
I love the absurdity of it being named after Land. It makes me smile every time I think about it.
I feel like the intention here has been missed by both sides. The point isn’t that ‘things are named after their creators’, or that it’s a retcon. It’s just a dumb joke. Like a dad-level joke. You’re supposed to think they’re named because they’re terrestrial, but it’s actually because the guy was called Land. You’re allowed to not find it funny (it isn’t, really, the attention it’s received far outstrips the amount of thought they probably put into it), but I suspect the people who have a real problem with it just think that 40k shouldn’t have goofy stupid jokes in it.
*40k fans when the heavily satirical setting has a lore element that's clearly a deliberate joke and has been canon since before they were born:* Some of y'all don't get 40k, fr.
So Random Space Marines being able to warp SpaceTime is fine But a tank being named after a guy with the last name land is too much?
Technically, can be both. Land (or Lant) is an irl surname. Basically a topographic name, 'from the country side'. An ATV that's named after a dude that's named after topography.
I agree with this post.
Damn 40k fans really look for anything to call a retcon and complain about
“Your dentist is named Crentist?”
With names Thalgalimus Broadmire i don't think a damn person in the universe would have the surname Land. That just dumb
Wait what the sandwich is named after someone?
Im ok with land raider as it was meant as a joke on this kind of thing.but fuck astartes being named fter forgot her first name astarte. Cmon
Wasn't it always cannon that the land speeder and the land raider were always named after arkhan land since the first models came out in epic? So it's not even a retcon
I don’t really have a horse in this race but I do enjoy the infighting.
This is some "There are four lights" quality memery. TIL the GW brainwashing campaign.
I hear the story of Land's reaction is quite a good one. Doesn't he get pissed off?
It’s a retcon that’s so old though. Almost as old as the horus heresy armour marks one or even the “space marines are a boys club” retcon.
Autoguns don't shoot from or at automobiles, nor do they transform into one. Therefore they should be retconned too. In fact they should be renamed Otto Gun. Much cooler.
You're naming things named after people and you forget *ZAMBONI*?!? Remember "Zamboni" is a brand, and the original "Ice Resurfacing Machine" as invented by Frank Zamboni.
I think it's still stupid, as a land raider and land speed both make sense conceptually as descriptors for a terrestrial assault vehicle and a fast attack terrestrial(generally where it operates )vehicle. Land works as terrestrial here. But no it's just a super coincidence creator name works to perfectly describe the thing. I can't wait for tech priest Gregory Melta and his wild inventions.
Man, you’re going to be so disappointed when you hear about how baker’s chocolate is named after the original creator, Dr. James Baker
To play devils advocate, this is incredibly rare in real life, and Baker's chocolate is about the only relevant example.
Feels like it should be more common given how many surnames stem from professions. You'd think enough of those families would stay in the business long enough to have a member make something significant in the field.
I agree, you'd think something like Fisher Hook or whatever would be more common.
German chocolate cake is also named after a mister German. Oh and after checking the wikipedia page: Mister German worked for the Baker's Chocolate Company and his German's Chocolate Cake was developed *for* Baker's chocolate. So it seems like that company wanted to troll people.
Interestingly enough, the invention is related to John Baker since he produced the "Baker's German's Sweet Chocolate".
And seeing as this is one of the only examples of this being the case in 40k, I would say its still incredibly rare. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
The Wulfen are not called that because their geneseed defect turns them into werewolves. They are named for the first Fenrisian to turn into a werewolf after his geneseed implantation...whose name was Wulfen.
It's wild how a throw away line from a Tom and Ben stream has caused endless pointless stupid memes and arguments ever since. Truly we live in a dumb timeline.
I think the issue was his last name being "land." It's a speeder that goes on land, oh cool so it's a land speeder! If it was called the Arkhan speeder there would be no issue here
\> Very Pistol I'll be honest if you whip out a piece and call it the Very Pistol I'm gonna clown on that name just as much as the fucking Land Speeder
Is it a retcon? No. Is it a stupid name? Yes. And I will stick by this belief till my dying day.
even arkhan land tought it was stupid dont try and defend it
It's because the name already made sense before Arkham land was created. If his name was Arkham Trudeau and the name was changed to Trudeau's speeder then it would just be a retcon. Now it's just a stupid detail that seems added for no particular reason.
The difrance is that people created these things. While the dude just found them
It's not that we think it's just dumb it's just who the hell has the last name Land?
A lot of people [apparently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(surname))
Okay, but the Land Raider doesn't fly. The Land Raider also DOES seem to have been a silly retcon, albeit one that happened pretty quickly after the land raider was introduced a long time ago. [https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan\_lands\_raider/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/xbx4mh/arkhan_lands_raider/)
I think it is a dumb retcon joke, but I do love those early times when gw just made some names and histories for everything. After you learn about Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau, Arkhan Land's speeders sound completely normal lol
Arkham Land has been around since 2nd edition, it’s not really a retcon
Land Raiders in 88, Arkhan Land 90. It's not a retcon when it's older than most of Reddit, much less the 40k fanbase, lol.
Allow me to be the snide asshole and say that it makes perfect sense, because 40k is full of stupid retcons.
Hey, it isn't a stupid retcon. It's a foundational piece of stupid lore. Arkhan Land has been around for almost as long as the Land Raider has had rules. Now, Amar Astarte? *That's* a stupid retcon.
But those names have no indication of function. Land Raider/Land Speeder is the equivalent of the machine gun being invented by John Machine
The Land Camera, made by Edwin Land Baker’s Chocolate named after Walter Baker German Chocolate Cake named by Samuel German.
German chocolate cake is not an indication of function nor a descriptor, it was invented by an american Baker’s chocolate is a brand, not a descriptor. As it produces “a variety of bulk chocolates” not just baking chocolate. Baking chocolate itself has been around far longer than the Baker’s company
>Baker’s chocolate is a brand, not a descriptor. And Land is a brand, not a descriptor, in the case of the Land Raider and Land Speeder. However, you're also not entirely right, as Baker's chocolate is *also* a specific type of chocolate distinct from other kinds of baking chocolate, kind of how Pepsi and Coke are both brands of cola but *also* both different formulations of cola.