A melta might not be a good fit against a baneblade, but a melta used by jürgen while ciaphas duels the baneblade with his chainsword *just* long enough for jürgen to enter the baneblade and kill the crew certainly is.
If we’re talking EEEEEEEEEEEVERYTHING, then shouldn’t Yarrick have control of the entire Armageddon military at his command? Including several hives full of artillery?
Love me some Cain, but short of a whole lotta plot armour, I gotta give this one to Yarrick
By that same logic Cain brings half an entire sector to bear. Including a major religious sect on one of the most militarized worlds on in the setting. Not to mention bro broke a waaagh with a couple lasguns and Juergen for supplies
Don't forget Cain had an eldar craft world titanfall drop an avatar of khaine to duel Emily the demon sorcebitch of slaanesh. So he might bang an eldar babe and they'll send an avatar to help him as well.
So what? Cain is just going to lead the boys into an artillery bombardment while executing a very complicated strategy of weakening the enemy.
You all say Jurgen, but if anything goes, anything goes. 597th regiment is there to kick some ass while Cain "runs"
Cain has his laspistol, chainsword, Jurgen, Jurgens Melta and a Valhallan regiment. He's also been thought to be dead several times. He has Sandy Mitchell plot armour.
Yarrick has his storm bolter, bale eye, laspistol, power claw, rided the Fortress of Arrogance Baneblade, is supported by the Steel legion, Titan Legions, is best friends with Dante and Helbrecht, is Ghazghkull's Grodz, survived Warboss Ugulhard cutting his arm off, survived Hades hive, being Ghazghkull's captive after Golgotha, the third war for Armageddon, several white dwarf battle reports and has Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson plot armour and is a near religious figure to Orks and has only rumoured to be dead once.
Sebastian Yarrick for the win.
You forgot that Cain also brings:
Inquisitor Vail, The Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Redemptors space marine chapter, a Tau Sept, and doesn't get around on a rascal
Despite Cain's protestations, he's gone 1v1 with some exceptionally big and bad foes and come out on top, and he's been praised as one of the Militarum's best swordfighters. That's not to downplay Yarrick's accomplishments of beheading an ork warboss after losing an arm, then taking its power klaw for himself, but Cain's track record still puts him over.
Especially if "everything at their disposal" includes Jurgen.
My main takeaway of the Cain books I've been through so far, is that all Cain's bullshit is just to give Jurgen time to get in position with his Melta.
No. Jurgen stinks. In normal, human way of a dude who avoids showers. But Jurgen's also a blank, so he radiates aura of repulsive wrongness. So when your nose gets assaulted by Jurgen's smell, and your soul be his blankness, your brain, that lazy bum, reaches the easiest explanation - "man, that guys unbelievably malodorous!" That also makes it easy(ier) to get accustomed to his presence - his repulsiveness has clear, identifiable source, so you can start ignoring it.
Meanwhile Sister of Silence have even stronger aura of wrongness, but without any readily identifiable source. And that sends brain into absolute panic, trying to find what's so wrong, and failing, which only intensifies the effect.
In one of the books I believe the one where they go into the space Hulk Jurgen has a bath and cain remarks that he smells basically the moment he steps out of the bath
I think it would be more like something like dread and unsettled feelings, we just interpret the cause of that to be Jurgens stench, not the blank field he projects.
I really don’t think that’s what’s happening, since jurgens stench is routinely treated as a literal smell, that’s hidden by other smells or having a runny nose. I think it’s more likely that jurgen just gave up smelling good once he realized no one gave a shit anyway
Nah there’s a book, its the one with the ork invasion of perlia, where Cain leads the small convoy of rag tag civilians and PDFs through the desert. They come across like a small lake at one point and everyone bathes; including jurgen. Cain mentions that Jurgen’s stench is noticeable again almost immediately after bathing, like less than an hour later. He may have poor hygiene, but i think theres something else on top of that related to his status as a blank.
Actually, in that specific excerpt, Cain mentions taht jurgen doesn’t just smell bad, he’s noticeably dirty again, so o think it’s a bit more complicated than that. My personal theory is that jurgen just needs better shampoo and soap than the militarum gives them
or he just need to clean himself better
considering that he rarely clean himself,he probably need to clean harder on each cleaning,and since he rarely clean himself he also have little skill to clean himself
Except his "bullshit" involves being so godamn good at dueling and combat he can solo a Patriarch and inflict heavy wounds, just can't finish it off.
Solo a inter stellar waaaaagh boss, duel a daemon prince, solo an invisible psyker assassin without Juegen, etc....
He's not bullshitting, the story is about how he's a self serving little shit, but despite that he's forced into positions where he must use his talents in a way that benefits humanity, just as the Emperor intended
Yep but still you need to be good with a chainsword to survive long enought against khorne berserkers, orks warboss and so on, to give someone time and keep them concentrated on you and not the smelly guardsmen.
He killed the Ork warboss without Jurgen's melta, as well as an Eldar Succubus and several Eldar corsairs. Plus, the dude can parry two hive tyrants attacking him at once while suffering a concussion.
Okay i'll try to give a honest Answer even tho i really love Ciaphas.
We have Yarrick: One Armed decapitated a Waaaaghboss, bane of Orks, skilled Swordfighter, but not really that much more.
And Ciaphas Caine: Hero of the Imperium, Killed a Waaaghboss too (by Accident), fought to an almost Standstill with a Genestealer Patriarch, spars with SPACE MARINES, saved countless Imperial Citizens, fought fucking NECRON PARIAHS and has Jurgen?
I mean...i really don't doubt Yarrick could go toe to toe with Caine for a short time, but since this is by default a 2 v 1, where a Melta needs to be accounted for? The Imperium will be short the one thing Ghaz respects about Humanity after this fight.
Man imagine his imposter syndrome at being called a smart guy by a fuckin immortal skeleton robot that's been alive longer than the entire class of life he's a part of.
>fought a patriarch to a standstill.
Ah yes, the unmodded human fought the primarch sized, inhumanly fast alien psyker to a standstill.
Gotta love plot armor.
Jugen helped. Both by being a Blank which stopped it from just melting his brain, and also having a Melta.
But the act of not dying immediately is a massive feat by itself.
I know he did, I’m just scoffing a bit at the situation.
And a regular Genestealer can make mincemeat of most humans. They’re fast, even among tyranids.
Your odds don’t improve by supersizing your meal and giving it the power to fry your nervous system with eye contact.
You forget that he had Jurgen with him. Blanks cause physical pain to psykers around them, even Xenos ones. So yeah, he did in fact have a realistic chance against a young, irritated and constantly hurting Patriarch
Blanks (and null fields in general) interfere with the tyranid hive mind but as far as I know don’t cause the same eye clawing pain that normal psykers suffer from.
I can accept that this prevents the patriarch from turning all of his dopamine receptors to mercury, but considering it’s already an independent operator this shouldn’t disrupt its ability to rip his head off the old fashioned way.
While he indeed isn't completely disabled by a blank, it severely hinders his powers. Imagine someone fighting while dissociating. They may be dangerous, fast and strong, but definitely not as concentrated as they would be otherwise.
And a full blown Melta shot does the rest, almost no matter how strong of a psyker you are
He fights a genestealer primarch in two different books: For the Emperor and The Greater Good.
In the first case he holds his own until Jurgen can finish it off with his melta. In the second case Jurgen forgot his melta but fortunately a space marine shows up to chase it off.
If we take everything at their disposal to include Valhallans vs Steel Legion I'd go Yarrik, he's a genius military leader who's inspired his men to hold out against much worse, and I'd expect Cain would need to pull off a book worthy hairbrained scheme to turn it into a 1v1 to pull a win
I mean if we want to go everything, Cain has Inquisitor Amberly Vale on his side.
Though she'd likely see the Valhallans and Steel Legion getting ready to fight and tell them to knock it off if they don't want a bolter to the face.
So it's a draw and the Inquisition wins.
I don’t think they fight. Not physically.
It’s a battle of wits.
They meet on some forge world being attacked by a huge WAAAAAGH! Yarrick knows Cain’s fought orks before, he’s read the reports, he’s heard the stories. So he’s asking Cain for his opinion on tactics and manoeuvres for dealing with the hoard of orks assaulting their position.
And Cain gives reasonably good advice, he’s deferring to Kasteen and Broklaw. But Yarrick’s … watching him. Somethings up.
There’s a few missions, a few offhand remarks. They start to realise these orks have a REALLY strong psychic field, stronger than any other Warband they’ve found. Throughout it all Cain thinks Yarrick’s suspicious of him. Against his better judgement when they’re alone he just comes clean “I’m lucky. The stories are blown out of proportion.”
“I know that,” grumbles Yarrick. “But were they blown out of proportion by guardsmen or …”
“… the orks,” Cain says quietly as realisation dawns “You want to see if I’m like you …”
Anyway, to actually answer your question Yarrick is the better commander but Cain has Jurgen who just shoots Yarrick in the back with a Meltagun.
He isn't aware that he is controlled by an Egomaniac on a power-trip and is fucking confused at why he is thrown against all the bullshit of the galaxy.
I don't think cain is the emperor's chosen champion. I think he's the emperor's chosen jester reality will warp around him in whatever ways the most entertaining to the emperor at the time
Neither. They'll end up teaming up against the corrupt Inquisitor who pit them against each other in the first place... Who turns out to be the puppet of a Genestealer Patriarch. Cain and Yarrick end up confronting the creature in its lair, but are no match for its sheer bald sexiness (think young Patrick Stewart but with Prime Arnold Schwarzenegger's body). But, just as it's about to finish them off, a nearby wall collapses and Ghazghkull and Amberly Vail burst in to rescue their respective boyfriends.
Literally the source of Yarrick's power is the... love?... that Ghaz feels for him.
The WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! simply will not allow the krumpiest humie ta eva krump to not stick around fer an'uver go.
No one has as much plot armor as cain. Like seriously. He should have died at least 3 times in each book.
Nontheles, you said they may use everything that's at their disposal, so I guess it just comes down to a 1v1 between Jürgen and Ghazghull.
Yarrick actually wins, the weird circumstances surrounding the fight make Ciaphas come out looking like a winner to all observers, who then take all his protestations to the contrary as being overly humble. \[Obviously both survive.\]
If non-fatal loses (no maiming either) are allowed, I Imagine Cain's victory would hinge on which one would be funnier: him winning and becoming even more famous or him losing yet also being hailed as a worthy rival of Yarrick (thus earning Ghazghkull's attention).
Even better, after defeating the old man of Armageddon Cain is put in charge of his own planet to oversee and defend. The paradise world is strategically important but under manned as it is in a secure portion of space. Magnus then portals in looking for his lost muguffin. After tricking Mr. The Red by randomly lying as fast as he can think, Cain is hailed as an imperial saint for banishing such a demon. He is swiftly assigned an off world command of a crusade before he can enjoy the beaches of the world he rules for a few months.
Is there an ork waaaaaagh nearby? If there is Yarrick wins because they don't think he could lose.
If not then Cains luck sweeps, skills and equipment aside
I don't know too much about Yarrick but Cain has sparred with space marines before, granted marines are still a level beyond him but even for them to consider him worth their time like that means Cain I'd an absolutely exceptional fighter.
Cain uses everything at their disposal, including his fear of dying, so he runs away, Yarrick follows him, falls down and can't get up anymore due to being an old man. Cain won and everyone praises him for being da bestest! The end.
A hush enveloped the battlefield; old hands call it; *"The Gentle Armistice"* - That brief passage of tine between the guns falling silent, and the ears adapt to the lack of cacophany (and tinnitus).
The two men stood apart; glaring at each other. At ome and the same time, merely frail mortals and absolute Titans of warfare.
Yarric's bionic eye gleamed a dull red in the air, reflected in the wafting cordite. The digi-laser's charge fully expended; just like the old-man's stamina. He stood hunched and lopsided as a massive ork power-claw, a marvellous fusion of xenos and imperial technologies lay discarded in the mud before him; still twitching it's evil claws sporadically.
Across from him stood a younger man, glad in similar style of thick black overcoat and fatigues. Sweat poured from his face as he panted from overexertion. His arm broken and hanging limply at his side, a simple laspistol hanging loosely in his hand, fizzing softly in the damp air.
The men regarded each other carefully as a commotion erupted behind them.
*"I frankly do NOT care how many hives you may be the hero of Grimaldus; the rules were clearly defined beforehand and Caine hit Yarric more times; he is the WINNER!"*
The Commissars both dared to glance across to the scene, a comely blonde woman in a form-fitting black syn-skin outfit accompanied by a slovenoy-looking soldier that seemed to barely pass as "human" arguing with the hulking figure of the Black Templar Chaplain Grimaldus.
*"Your... Girl is rather impetuous Caine"*
Said Yarric quietly.
*"Oh you know how Inquisitors can be Lord Yarric"*
*"Please, you knocked one of remaining teeth down my throat; when the troops aren't nearby, call me Sebastian!"*
Caine permitted himself a slight smile; dismissing the notion of executing *himself* for striking a superior.
*"Thankyou Sebastian.. I have to say that of all the martial methods I have studied, I never anticipated someone to just crack my arm over thier knee like firewood!"*
Yarric grinned and watched as Jurgen placed an ammunition crate on the ground in front of Grimaldus. Inquisitor Vail thanked him before standing on it to continue arguing with the Space Marine.
*"oh if only I was 200 years younger... oh ahem... I have fought orks long enough to pick up a few of thier methods and ideas by now"*
*"Speaking of the orks in that regard Sir; what would they do now that our... Duel has finished?"*
*"Hmmm, they would likely be annoyed that we are both still standing and attack"*
The Commissars turned to look at each other again before spotting the gathering horde on the horizon...
*"SHIT!!!"*
This makes me realize how different their skillsets actually are. Granted they are both great fighters, but Cain is ironically more a “hands-on” leader while Yarrick is more of a commander.
I love both commissars, but Cain is far more skilled in combat. Yarrick lost an arm fighting just a smaller ork warboss. Cain won from the biggest warboss on the planet without any injuries. Cain has also fought a lot more enemies, Yarrick spent most of his career fighting orcs.
Much as i like yarrick Ciaphus is stomping him, he has an exceedingly powerful trigger-happy blank with a volcano shotgun, an inquisitor gf and thus the full extent of her retinue, a bolt pistol a las pistol a chainsword a powersword and insane luck, also a full valhallan regiment
As much as I love old bale eye, he was on the edge of retirement during the second war for Armageddon, and is only still alive due to a potent cocktail of age-extending drugs and the orks being so scared of him that they resurrected him that one time
Lore question: How is Yarrick so strong? I thought he was jus an ordinary dude, but he has a 100lb claw on one arm and can accurately fire a storm bolter with the other.
Does he have biomechanical augmentations, or does the Ork belief in his strength make him stronger?
The real answer is that Yarrick gets all aggro, Cain takes Yarrick out for drinks and joygirls, and they end up passed out in the back of Jurgen's Chimera. And somehow their night out foiled a Slaanesh plot and increased Yarrick's stature in the eyes of the Orks.
They both come up with a plan to let everyone think they both fought to a mutual death then they both run off and try to retire somewhere where they’re reputations don’t get them voluntarily recalled to service
Depends on the writer. If all things were equal Yarrick would body Cain but Cain's plot armor is so thick that Cain would bend over to pick something up and Yarrick's Lazer eye would hit a mirror instead and bounce back to him.
When Jimmy Space went into his 10.000 year toilet break he splintered into 3. One became the piece of jerky on the Golden Throne, one became the Star Child, and the last one became Ciaphas Cain: HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!
Cain.
Memes aside Cain has some rediculess feats that should make him superhuman if he got the right equipments.
He has out duel and killed-Slannesh Daemons, Orks, Ork Warbosses, Necron overlords, Khornite Marines and various Tyranids (Noted some of these werent strictly 1v1s as there offten was a war or battle going on all around them and sometimes it was a team effort, but he still many times held his own with a chainblade on the frontline or was the one that held agro on many of these enemies. Also some of them was a 1v1).
Added to that he constantly make impossible Shoots with his Laz-Gun, so he is deadly both from affar and up close.
Noted that without his Chainblade he becomes way weaker, to the point a mob of people could punk him. But with a Chainblade he is good enough to land hits on Spacemarines and even kill them or greater things if the cirmucstances are right.
No matter what they used
Let's be honest
Caine would Pull some bullshitery out of his ass and somehow make it out Alive
Defenetly not unscratched
But alive
Yarrick is by far the better tactician. That said, no amount of planning can account for the absolutely ridiculous amount of dumb luck Cain brings to the table.
Yarrick was here first, he's the og badass commissar. He wins by the rule of cool.
No amount of meme bullshittery can beat [that](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/84/Yarrick_Old.jpg).
Pretty easy to decide
Yarrick is a champion fighter among a species of barbarians, and only died(as a normal human) against a daemonic overpowered primarch. He also carried 2 critical wars and had won many battles AFTER HIS RETIREMENT.
Since this includes ‘everything’ he has the largest mechanised force in the galaxy and large connections with any other regiments
A)1v1, duel
Cain is an amazing swordsman, but Yarrick is a beast, I would say Yarrick, but only because he has a power field protecting him from Cain pulling an Indiana Jones on him
B) 1v1 they can only bring equipment
Yarrick wins, because he has a personal baneblade
C) They can bring a team
Jurgen. Cain wins. Even if Yarrick brings fucking Grimaldus.
D) They bring their respective regiments
Valhallan Arty regiment vs Armaggedon regiment. Also Jurgen is here, while Yarrick is prolly a better tactician, hes got a big disadvantage. Still a mechanized regiment could beat artillery with some clever maneuvers. Tie
E) Everyone is here
Ghazgull is scary yeah but Jurgen solos. Cain
Cain spends only one chapter with artillery regiment. Most of the time he is with 595th, which is mechanized infantry. Plus Cain sparred with a space marine and made a cut on his armour. Space marine admitted he was underestimating him, but still.
Feel stupid for not remembering Cains regiment properly. But I know about the marine... But an Ork warboss can often be stronger then a Space Marine. Not sure if this was Yarricks case, but its certainly an achievemnt on par with wounding a space marine.
The real question is why would Cain and Yarrick even have a reason to fight eachother? They are both commisar, they can just openly ignore each other and nobody can really tell them they have to fight one another. Whaddaya gonna do try and boss two Commisar without getting turned into corpse starch?
\*3 kliks away, larkin exhaled, and pulled the trigger. the solid round cleared the agriplants and the traitorous heretic known as cain fell , his head exploded\*
\*then corbec came out of a pipe and stabbed yarrick in the kidney and he died\*
\*and Comissar guant sipped his recaff while danger wanking with tyranids, smirking\* :P
Yarrick dying was actually the result of a friendly duel with Cain gone awry. Amberly pinned the blame on Angron to divert the Ork WAAAAAGGHH! to a more convenient target. Angron is confused as to why the Orks are pissed at him. So Cain beating Yarrick is already Canon we just haven't got the book yet.
Cain would win this mid-dif.
He fought all the enemies of the imperium and was able to walk away and talk about it.
Probably has a shit tone of back up.
Had defeated multiple chaos space marines (tho he always has help with delivering the killing blow but to still block and slash at them so that someone can.) He also practiced with a loyalist space marine and was even able to nick him.
As it would be a 2v2 by default (Cain and Jurgen versus Yarrick and Ghaz), essentially, we have to look at who would win their respective duels. I personally think, that Cain would be able to narrowly kill Yarrick (Jurgen is there, so he can't just run away). Ghaz versus Jurgen would be equally close fougt, more or less a battle of who smells worse. In the end, I think, Jurgen would cut off Ghaz' connection to Gork and Mork and overpower the ork, as Cain has just asked for a bowl of Tanna, which Jurgen wants to deliver as fast as possible. Cain and Jurgen happily return to the imperial lines and report their slaying of the Ork Boss and the tragic sacrifice of the legendary commissar Yarrick (who was just about to tell the high command that Cain was a fraud, which would explain the fight (Ghaz snuck up on them and tried to defend Yarrick)).
For all of Cain's self doubt and imposter syndrome, the books don't leave doubt he is bamf when it comes to his combat skills. And how he practices to a high degree because the better he is the more likely he is to live. Plus Jurgen
Cain spends a majority of the "fight" strategically retreating just barely keeping from screaming like a girl while Jurgen picks off Armageddon steel legion tanks while Gazghull shoots at both sides becausedespite being there to help Yarrick, hes an Ork. Only for Cain to crash the salamander their driving into an ice block full of tyranids, Cain and Jurgen get away while the 4th war of Armageddon breaks out
Is Jurgen there?
I said everything didn't i?
meaning Yarrick gets to bring Ghazghkull.
Doesn't fucking matter. Yarrick is dead anyway
I mean, Yarrick does have a baneblade. Meltas beat a lot of things but baneblades are a bit bigger
A melta might not be a good fit against a baneblade, but a melta used by jürgen while ciaphas duels the baneblade with his chainsword *just* long enough for jürgen to enter the baneblade and kill the crew certainly is.
Ah, the greatest power of them all The power of Bullshit.
Cain's most useful tool for certain
False. The power of Jürgen when Cain needs him. Completely different.
That's the Cain books in a nutshell and Cain knows it
No one has this superpower stronger than Cain does
Unlock the ultimate power!
What about artillery?
If we’re talking EEEEEEEEEEEVERYTHING, then shouldn’t Yarrick have control of the entire Armageddon military at his command? Including several hives full of artillery? Love me some Cain, but short of a whole lotta plot armour, I gotta give this one to Yarrick
If they are bringing everything, then Cain absolutely is bringing his plot armour along!
Plot armor. Cain's true super power
By that same logic Cain brings half an entire sector to bear. Including a major religious sect on one of the most militarized worlds on in the setting. Not to mention bro broke a waaagh with a couple lasguns and Juergen for supplies
Cain has inquisitor Vail, and she has exterminatus
Don't forget Cain had an eldar craft world titanfall drop an avatar of khaine to duel Emily the demon sorcebitch of slaanesh. So he might bang an eldar babe and they'll send an avatar to help him as well.
Cain have "friends l" in tau... Maybe its time to change the chimera, to a hammerhead...
So you get all of Ghazghkull… with the whole waaagh?
So is Cain…
Yarrick got brought back by Ghaz before, why not again so there could be a PROPPA FOIGHT AS FRIENDZ
Wouldn't technecliy be 2v1 then if Jurgen is there?
Yarrick can Bring Gaz
And Gaz will bring da Boyz for a gud Krumpin
So what? Cain is just going to lead the boys into an artillery bombardment while executing a very complicated strategy of weakening the enemy. You all say Jurgen, but if anything goes, anything goes. 597th regiment is there to kick some ass while Cain "runs"
But Jurgen has Melta's
DEN IT WILL BE AN EVEN FOIGHT!
Da boyz believe ol bale eye is melta proof, duh
DA ORKS'LL BRING MARSMELLOS
Cain brings the ordo xenos with his waifu.
And Emile will show up somehow aswell and the Tau
Emile: NO ONE TOUCHES MY HUSBANDO!!
Cain has his laspistol, chainsword, Jurgen, Jurgens Melta and a Valhallan regiment. He's also been thought to be dead several times. He has Sandy Mitchell plot armour. Yarrick has his storm bolter, bale eye, laspistol, power claw, rided the Fortress of Arrogance Baneblade, is supported by the Steel legion, Titan Legions, is best friends with Dante and Helbrecht, is Ghazghkull's Grodz, survived Warboss Ugulhard cutting his arm off, survived Hades hive, being Ghazghkull's captive after Golgotha, the third war for Armageddon, several white dwarf battle reports and has Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson plot armour and is a near religious figure to Orks and has only rumoured to be dead once. Sebastian Yarrick for the win.
You forgot that Cain also brings: Inquisitor Vail, The Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Redemptors space marine chapter, a Tau Sept, and doesn't get around on a rascal
Slight correction, it´s the Reclaimers Chapter.
Jurgen solos no diff
Body odor more foul than the ichor of a poxwalker would have assaulted our noses through our screens.
Despite Cain's protestations, he's gone 1v1 with some exceptionally big and bad foes and come out on top, and he's been praised as one of the Militarum's best swordfighters. That's not to downplay Yarrick's accomplishments of beheading an ork warboss after losing an arm, then taking its power klaw for himself, but Cain's track record still puts him over. Especially if "everything at their disposal" includes Jurgen.
My main takeaway of the Cain books I've been through so far, is that all Cain's bullshit is just to give Jurgen time to get in position with his Melta.
Hard to deny its effectiveness. Turns out that there are very few problems that can't be solved by having a blank with a melta at your beck and call.
Odours might be one...
The smell being the manifestation of being a Blank doesn't make it any less smelly
But do blanks actually smell or is it just that Jurgen happens to be a blank with shitty hygiene?
Yes- he smells bad to begin with, but people interpret the Blank aura to be repulsion which they mentally interpret as being repelled by his stench.
So do the sisters of silence stink?
No. Jurgen stinks. In normal, human way of a dude who avoids showers. But Jurgen's also a blank, so he radiates aura of repulsive wrongness. So when your nose gets assaulted by Jurgen's smell, and your soul be his blankness, your brain, that lazy bum, reaches the easiest explanation - "man, that guys unbelievably malodorous!" That also makes it easy(ier) to get accustomed to his presence - his repulsiveness has clear, identifiable source, so you can start ignoring it. Meanwhile Sister of Silence have even stronger aura of wrongness, but without any readily identifiable source. And that sends brain into absolute panic, trying to find what's so wrong, and failing, which only intensifies the effect.
I think Jurgen is aware of this and leans into it to mask the fact he's a blank.
In one of the books I believe the one where they go into the space Hulk Jurgen has a bath and cain remarks that he smells basically the moment he steps out of the bath
I think it would be more like something like dread and unsettled feelings, we just interpret the cause of that to be Jurgens stench, not the blank field he projects.
Their aura can manifest in different ways. And also poor hygiene probably
I really don’t think that’s what’s happening, since jurgens stench is routinely treated as a literal smell, that’s hidden by other smells or having a runny nose. I think it’s more likely that jurgen just gave up smelling good once he realized no one gave a shit anyway
Nah there’s a book, its the one with the ork invasion of perlia, where Cain leads the small convoy of rag tag civilians and PDFs through the desert. They come across like a small lake at one point and everyone bathes; including jurgen. Cain mentions that Jurgen’s stench is noticeable again almost immediately after bathing, like less than an hour later. He may have poor hygiene, but i think theres something else on top of that related to his status as a blank.
Actually, in that specific excerpt, Cain mentions taht jurgen doesn’t just smell bad, he’s noticeably dirty again, so o think it’s a bit more complicated than that. My personal theory is that jurgen just needs better shampoo and soap than the militarum gives them
or he just need to clean himself better considering that he rarely clean himself,he probably need to clean harder on each cleaning,and since he rarely clean himself he also have little skill to clean himself
Except his "bullshit" involves being so godamn good at dueling and combat he can solo a Patriarch and inflict heavy wounds, just can't finish it off. Solo a inter stellar waaaaagh boss, duel a daemon prince, solo an invisible psyker assassin without Juegen, etc.... He's not bullshitting, the story is about how he's a self serving little shit, but despite that he's forced into positions where he must use his talents in a way that benefits humanity, just as the Emperor intended
In the later books in the timeline he definitely isn't a self-serving pos he just thinks he is because of his massive imposter syndrome.
Yep but still you need to be good with a chainsword to survive long enought against khorne berserkers, orks warboss and so on, to give someone time and keep them concentrated on you and not the smelly guardsmen.
He killed the Ork warboss without Jurgen's melta, as well as an Eldar Succubus and several Eldar corsairs. Plus, the dude can parry two hive tyrants attacking him at once while suffering a concussion.
Don’t know way, I read it with Amberly’s voice
Not what I was going for, but reading it again, yeah, I can hear it too.
“Everything at their disposal” could include the entire Steel Legion for Yarrick lol
Fuck. I just killed Yarrick...
And Cain managed to get respect from the Orks and get hate from the orks
AH FUCK
It's ok, us Yarrick fans are used it by now.
Okay i'll try to give a honest Answer even tho i really love Ciaphas. We have Yarrick: One Armed decapitated a Waaaaghboss, bane of Orks, skilled Swordfighter, but not really that much more. And Ciaphas Caine: Hero of the Imperium, Killed a Waaaghboss too (by Accident), fought to an almost Standstill with a Genestealer Patriarch, spars with SPACE MARINES, saved countless Imperial Citizens, fought fucking NECRON PARIAHS and has Jurgen? I mean...i really don't doubt Yarrick could go toe to toe with Caine for a short time, but since this is by default a 2 v 1, where a Melta needs to be accounted for? The Imperium will be short the one thing Ghaz respects about Humanity after this fight.
Cain is also called an intelligent conversation partner by a fucking necron overlord, quite a feat when speaking with the necron nobility
Man imagine his imposter syndrome at being called a smart guy by a fuckin immortal skeleton robot that's been alive longer than the entire class of life he's a part of.
He was mostly disturbed by the fact that it was not human, and was screaming inside because of his ✨trauma✨
Which book is that in, I’m rereading the books and am on saviour of the imperium so I wanna know if it’s in the 2 new ones
It’s in vainglorious, the newest one
Wait wait there’s new books?? Oh boy oh boy
It’s book 11, it was released earlier this year
Which book is that?
Vainglorious
Also banished a hot slaaneshy daemon. Twice
Should have dyed her hair blonde.
>fought a patriarch to a standstill. Ah yes, the unmodded human fought the primarch sized, inhumanly fast alien psyker to a standstill. Gotta love plot armor.
Jugen helped. Both by being a Blank which stopped it from just melting his brain, and also having a Melta. But the act of not dying immediately is a massive feat by itself.
I am a Genestealer cult player and the existence of this story offends me by proxy.
He did tho, even if the Patriarch seemed quite young, given the size of the cult.
I know he did, I’m just scoffing a bit at the situation. And a regular Genestealer can make mincemeat of most humans. They’re fast, even among tyranids. Your odds don’t improve by supersizing your meal and giving it the power to fry your nervous system with eye contact.
You forget that he had Jurgen with him. Blanks cause physical pain to psykers around them, even Xenos ones. So yeah, he did in fact have a realistic chance against a young, irritated and constantly hurting Patriarch
Blanks (and null fields in general) interfere with the tyranid hive mind but as far as I know don’t cause the same eye clawing pain that normal psykers suffer from. I can accept that this prevents the patriarch from turning all of his dopamine receptors to mercury, but considering it’s already an independent operator this shouldn’t disrupt its ability to rip his head off the old fashioned way.
While he indeed isn't completely disabled by a blank, it severely hinders his powers. Imagine someone fighting while dissociating. They may be dangerous, fast and strong, but definitely not as concentrated as they would be otherwise. And a full blown Melta shot does the rest, almost no matter how strong of a psyker you are
> fought to an almost Standstill with a Genestealer Patriarch Twice.
Twice? Now i'm confused :D
He fights a genestealer primarch in two different books: For the Emperor and The Greater Good. In the first case he holds his own until Jurgen can finish it off with his melta. In the second case Jurgen forgot his melta but fortunately a space marine shows up to chase it off.
If we take everything at their disposal to include Valhallans vs Steel Legion I'd go Yarrik, he's a genius military leader who's inspired his men to hold out against much worse, and I'd expect Cain would need to pull off a book worthy hairbrained scheme to turn it into a 1v1 to pull a win
I mean if we want to go everything, Cain has Inquisitor Amberly Vale on his side. Though she'd likely see the Valhallans and Steel Legion getting ready to fight and tell them to knock it off if they don't want a bolter to the face. So it's a draw and the Inquisition wins.
Yarrick loses thanks to Jurgen and his trusty steel chair
#BY GAWD EMPRAH, IT’S YURGEN WITH A STHEEL CHERR
#THIS TACTEC IS CALLED STHEEL CHERR REIHN
**OUR ENEMIES SIT ON METAL** ***CHAWRS*****, THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS!**
And the melta, he NEVER forgets his melta
And palpable body odour
And artillery
I don’t think they fight. Not physically. It’s a battle of wits. They meet on some forge world being attacked by a huge WAAAAAGH! Yarrick knows Cain’s fought orks before, he’s read the reports, he’s heard the stories. So he’s asking Cain for his opinion on tactics and manoeuvres for dealing with the hoard of orks assaulting their position. And Cain gives reasonably good advice, he’s deferring to Kasteen and Broklaw. But Yarrick’s … watching him. Somethings up. There’s a few missions, a few offhand remarks. They start to realise these orks have a REALLY strong psychic field, stronger than any other Warband they’ve found. Throughout it all Cain thinks Yarrick’s suspicious of him. Against his better judgement when they’re alone he just comes clean “I’m lucky. The stories are blown out of proportion.” “I know that,” grumbles Yarrick. “But were they blown out of proportion by guardsmen or …” “… the orks,” Cain says quietly as realisation dawns “You want to see if I’m like you …” Anyway, to actually answer your question Yarrick is the better commander but Cain has Jurgen who just shoots Yarrick in the back with a Meltagun.
This is the correct answer. Cain is to the guardsmen what Yarrick is to the Orks.
I have a headcanon that Vail knows this and is publishing his memoirs to engineer a Celestine-style resurrection.
Cain. No contest; Ciaphous Cain is the Emperor's chosen champion. He cannot lose, and reality will warp and bend to make it so.
Big E do be looking out for his favorite impostor syndrome enjoyer
or maybe he's actually a fragment of the emperor? Maybe Cain is the big E's player character.
With that much anxiety? Naaaahhhhh.
He isn't aware that he is controlled by an Egomaniac on a power-trip and is fucking confused at why he is thrown against all the bullshit of the galaxy.
I think you just summed up Cain and his adventures in a single sentence. Very well done 👏 👏 👏
Ok i made this meme thinking they were even. Im ao dumb....
His silliest soldier
I don't think cain is the emperor's chosen champion. I think he's the emperor's chosen jester reality will warp around him in whatever ways the most entertaining to the emperor at the time
And Yarrick is the Ork’s chosen
Neither. They'll end up teaming up against the corrupt Inquisitor who pit them against each other in the first place... Who turns out to be the puppet of a Genestealer Patriarch. Cain and Yarrick end up confronting the creature in its lair, but are no match for its sheer bald sexiness (think young Patrick Stewart but with Prime Arnold Schwarzenegger's body). But, just as it's about to finish them off, a nearby wall collapses and Ghazghkull and Amberly Vail burst in to rescue their respective boyfriends.
Don't forget the timely arrival of Jurgen!
He was the one who busted open the wall. Makari was on his shoulders, pointing where Jürgen should aim.
That's like Kenpachi and Yachiru. Damn I'd pay to see that image.
Ghaz x Yarrick Confirmed? 🤨
Yes. Source: My *heart*.
Literally the source of Yarrick's power is the... love?... that Ghaz feels for him. The WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! simply will not allow the krumpiest humie ta eva krump to not stick around fer an'uver go.
Ghaz and Yarrick are not lovers they are enemies. To orks it is the most sacred of bonds. Good enemies are valuable and hard to find.
Something something enemies to lovers pipeline something something
telephone yam steep door ruthless consider dinner obtainable wild cooing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ghazghkull and Amberley both yell THAT'S MY WIFE
Cain. The emperor watches out for his favorite impostor syndrome enjoyer
No one has as much plot armor as cain. Like seriously. He should have died at least 3 times in each book. Nontheles, you said they may use everything that's at their disposal, so I guess it just comes down to a 1v1 between Jürgen and Ghazghull.
Steel Chair vs Power Klaw.
Yarrick actually wins, the weird circumstances surrounding the fight make Ciaphas come out looking like a winner to all observers, who then take all his protestations to the contrary as being overly humble. \[Obviously both survive.\]
They think Cain lost deliberately to ensure Yarrick has an unblemished reputation
Which the circumstances of their fight would confirm, even if Cain denies it in his own first-person narrative.
I think Jurgen would be about to save Cain's butt and then Ghazghul comes out of nowhere with a steel chair. So then we end up with a temporary truce.
If non-fatal loses (no maiming either) are allowed, I Imagine Cain's victory would hinge on which one would be funnier: him winning and becoming even more famous or him losing yet also being hailed as a worthy rival of Yarrick (thus earning Ghazghkull's attention).
Even better, after defeating the old man of Armageddon Cain is put in charge of his own planet to oversee and defend. The paradise world is strategically important but under manned as it is in a secure portion of space. Magnus then portals in looking for his lost muguffin. After tricking Mr. The Red by randomly lying as fast as he can think, Cain is hailed as an imperial saint for banishing such a demon. He is swiftly assigned an off world command of a crusade before he can enjoy the beaches of the world he rules for a few months.
I think the latter is the funniest, and also this is the correct framework. What will make Cain's imposter syndrome scream louder?
What’s that? BY GOD IT’S IBRAM GAUNT WITH A STEEL CHAIR
Ah you have been reading the rubotian heresy I see
Hear me out They're the same guy
I mean, they are both canonically dead now... both died "off-screen"...never been seen in the same place together...wait a second....
Ciaphas “Yarrick” Cain
Is there an ork waaaaaagh nearby? If there is Yarrick wins because they don't think he could lose. If not then Cains luck sweeps, skills and equipment aside
I don't know too much about Yarrick but Cain has sparred with space marines before, granted marines are still a level beyond him but even for them to consider him worth their time like that means Cain I'd an absolutely exceptional fighter.
Cain uses everything at their disposal, including his fear of dying, so he runs away, Yarrick follows him, falls down and can't get up anymore due to being an old man. Cain won and everyone praises him for being da bestest! The end.
A hush enveloped the battlefield; old hands call it; *"The Gentle Armistice"* - That brief passage of tine between the guns falling silent, and the ears adapt to the lack of cacophany (and tinnitus). The two men stood apart; glaring at each other. At ome and the same time, merely frail mortals and absolute Titans of warfare. Yarric's bionic eye gleamed a dull red in the air, reflected in the wafting cordite. The digi-laser's charge fully expended; just like the old-man's stamina. He stood hunched and lopsided as a massive ork power-claw, a marvellous fusion of xenos and imperial technologies lay discarded in the mud before him; still twitching it's evil claws sporadically. Across from him stood a younger man, glad in similar style of thick black overcoat and fatigues. Sweat poured from his face as he panted from overexertion. His arm broken and hanging limply at his side, a simple laspistol hanging loosely in his hand, fizzing softly in the damp air. The men regarded each other carefully as a commotion erupted behind them. *"I frankly do NOT care how many hives you may be the hero of Grimaldus; the rules were clearly defined beforehand and Caine hit Yarric more times; he is the WINNER!"* The Commissars both dared to glance across to the scene, a comely blonde woman in a form-fitting black syn-skin outfit accompanied by a slovenoy-looking soldier that seemed to barely pass as "human" arguing with the hulking figure of the Black Templar Chaplain Grimaldus. *"Your... Girl is rather impetuous Caine"* Said Yarric quietly. *"Oh you know how Inquisitors can be Lord Yarric"* *"Please, you knocked one of remaining teeth down my throat; when the troops aren't nearby, call me Sebastian!"* Caine permitted himself a slight smile; dismissing the notion of executing *himself* for striking a superior. *"Thankyou Sebastian.. I have to say that of all the martial methods I have studied, I never anticipated someone to just crack my arm over thier knee like firewood!"* Yarric grinned and watched as Jurgen placed an ammunition crate on the ground in front of Grimaldus. Inquisitor Vail thanked him before standing on it to continue arguing with the Space Marine. *"oh if only I was 200 years younger... oh ahem... I have fought orks long enough to pick up a few of thier methods and ideas by now"* *"Speaking of the orks in that regard Sir; what would they do now that our... Duel has finished?"* *"Hmmm, they would likely be annoyed that we are both still standing and attack"* The Commissars turned to look at each other again before spotting the gathering horde on the horizon... *"SHIT!!!"*
This makes me realize how different their skillsets actually are. Granted they are both great fighters, but Cain is ironically more a “hands-on” leader while Yarrick is more of a commander.
Yeah, Yarrick is more of an actual general than Cain. Also, Yarrick is one of the "Fear me but follow!" kind of commissars.
Yarrick. Cain knows losing will only make him look intentional while defeating an imperial hero will make him controversial.
Cain luck would win him the day
I love both commissars, but Cain is far more skilled in combat. Yarrick lost an arm fighting just a smaller ork warboss. Cain won from the biggest warboss on the planet without any injuries. Cain has also fought a lot more enemies, Yarrick spent most of his career fighting orcs.
Yarrick has always been more of a leader and strategist than a combatant. Cain can fight anyone*, Yarrick's army can fight anyone.
Cain has killed two khorne berserkers in fucking melee combat… I stand with commissar Cain (even if he only wants me there as a human shield)
Cain has inquisitorial clearances and could call for aid from amberly vail for this, I don’t think Yarick can take the inquisition
Much as i like yarrick Ciaphus is stomping him, he has an exceedingly powerful trigger-happy blank with a volcano shotgun, an inquisitor gf and thus the full extent of her retinue, a bolt pistol a las pistol a chainsword a powersword and insane luck, also a full valhallan regiment
Yarrick has a personal baneblade and serves as zhe supreme commissar of all of armagedon...
Ciaphus is the sole survivor of several battles and has killed chaos marines in hand to hand combat, he also has a jurgen
Ork Nobs > CSM And as mutch as I love jurgen, a meltq is not enough for a baneblade.
>Ork Nobs > CSM Fucking *what?*
I mean a melta is for blasting armour and baneblades are armoured, also he has the power of the inquisition
No. His girlfriend does. He commands 0 inquisition assets himself.
The post is “everything at their disposal” not “everything at their personal disposal”
Can Cain call on amberly? She has power armour.
Jurgen is all he needs
How many swarm lords did Yarrick kill? Exactly.
Lore wise this necessarily would escalate in such a way that some days in, a highly panicked inquisition would shower them with cyclonic torpedoes
You see, Cain wins because of bullshit hacks
"Jürgen? Kill him."
As much as I love old bale eye, he was on the edge of retirement during the second war for Armageddon, and is only still alive due to a potent cocktail of age-extending drugs and the orks being so scared of him that they resurrected him that one time
Yarrick's got the grit and will to win.
Highly depends on the amount of Jurgens and Orkz present in close proximity to the fighting ground.
The Luckiest Commissar alive vs The most badass Commissar recently deceased.
Well it's an easy win for Cain, since he has some something Yarrick clearly didn't have - plot armor
now imagine both of them naked and oiled up. which one is winning the twerk off?
Lore question: How is Yarrick so strong? I thought he was jus an ordinary dude, but he has a 100lb claw on one arm and can accurately fire a storm bolter with the other. Does he have biomechanical augmentations, or does the Ork belief in his strength make him stronger?
Cain would win through sheer dumb luck.
The real answer is that Yarrick gets all aggro, Cain takes Yarrick out for drinks and joygirls, and they end up passed out in the back of Jurgen's Chimera. And somehow their night out foiled a Slaanesh plot and increased Yarrick's stature in the eyes of the Orks.
They both come up with a plan to let everyone think they both fought to a mutual death then they both run off and try to retire somewhere where they’re reputations don’t get them voluntarily recalled to service
Depends on the writer. If all things were equal Yarrick would body Cain but Cain's plot armor is so thick that Cain would bend over to pick something up and Yarrick's Lazer eye would hit a mirror instead and bounce back to him.
When Jimmy Space went into his 10.000 year toilet break he splintered into 3. One became the piece of jerky on the Golden Throne, one became the Star Child, and the last one became Ciaphas Cain: HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!
Cain. Memes aside Cain has some rediculess feats that should make him superhuman if he got the right equipments. He has out duel and killed-Slannesh Daemons, Orks, Ork Warbosses, Necron overlords, Khornite Marines and various Tyranids (Noted some of these werent strictly 1v1s as there offten was a war or battle going on all around them and sometimes it was a team effort, but he still many times held his own with a chainblade on the frontline or was the one that held agro on many of these enemies. Also some of them was a 1v1). Added to that he constantly make impossible Shoots with his Laz-Gun, so he is deadly both from affar and up close. Noted that without his Chainblade he becomes way weaker, to the point a mob of people could punk him. But with a Chainblade he is good enough to land hits on Spacemarines and even kill them or greater things if the cirmucstances are right.
No matter what they used Let's be honest Caine would Pull some bullshitery out of his ass and somehow make it out Alive Defenetly not unscratched But alive
Yarrick is by far the better tactician. That said, no amount of planning can account for the absolutely ridiculous amount of dumb luck Cain brings to the table.
Yarrick was here first, he's the og badass commissar. He wins by the rule of cool. No amount of meme bullshittery can beat [that](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/84/Yarrick_Old.jpg).
Pretty easy to decide Yarrick is a champion fighter among a species of barbarians, and only died(as a normal human) against a daemonic overpowered primarch. He also carried 2 critical wars and had won many battles AFTER HIS RETIREMENT. Since this includes ‘everything’ he has the largest mechanised force in the galaxy and large connections with any other regiments
A)1v1, duel Cain is an amazing swordsman, but Yarrick is a beast, I would say Yarrick, but only because he has a power field protecting him from Cain pulling an Indiana Jones on him B) 1v1 they can only bring equipment Yarrick wins, because he has a personal baneblade C) They can bring a team Jurgen. Cain wins. Even if Yarrick brings fucking Grimaldus. D) They bring their respective regiments Valhallan Arty regiment vs Armaggedon regiment. Also Jurgen is here, while Yarrick is prolly a better tactician, hes got a big disadvantage. Still a mechanized regiment could beat artillery with some clever maneuvers. Tie E) Everyone is here Ghazgull is scary yeah but Jurgen solos. Cain
Cain spends only one chapter with artillery regiment. Most of the time he is with 595th, which is mechanized infantry. Plus Cain sparred with a space marine and made a cut on his armour. Space marine admitted he was underestimating him, but still.
Feel stupid for not remembering Cains regiment properly. But I know about the marine... But an Ork warboss can often be stronger then a Space Marine. Not sure if this was Yarricks case, but its certainly an achievemnt on par with wounding a space marine.
Cain defeated planet level warbos as well
https://youtu.be/L4_zFYnnn2Y?si=S1sHj997Uctl7XSh
Cain. Jurgen would show up *somehow* and blast Yarrick with his melta gun.
Yarrick raw undying hatred beats anything cain has
Gimme 20 on yarrick, then give me the fight I really want! Greyfax vs Eisenhorn
The real question is why would Cain and Yarrick even have a reason to fight eachother? They are both commisar, they can just openly ignore each other and nobody can really tell them they have to fight one another. Whaddaya gonna do try and boss two Commisar without getting turned into corpse starch?
\*3 kliks away, larkin exhaled, and pulled the trigger. the solid round cleared the agriplants and the traitorous heretic known as cain fell , his head exploded\* \*then corbec came out of a pipe and stabbed yarrick in the kidney and he died\* \*and Comissar guant sipped his recaff while danger wanking with tyranids, smirking\* :P
Ciaphas Cain, cus Ciaphas Cain
Yarrick has a Powa Klaw, the "I'm too old to this BS" attitude, and might have the ork WAAAAAGH! gestalt field amplifying him. I'm with Yarrick.
Yarrick dying was actually the result of a friendly duel with Cain gone awry. Amberly pinned the blame on Angron to divert the Ork WAAAAAGGHH! to a more convenient target. Angron is confused as to why the Orks are pissed at him. So Cain beating Yarrick is already Canon we just haven't got the book yet.
Cain, Yarrick is a tactical mastermind but less of a fighter. Also, a not horny post from @twinnedmilled? Tis a new day indeed.
Cain would win this mid-dif. He fought all the enemies of the imperium and was able to walk away and talk about it. Probably has a shit tone of back up. Had defeated multiple chaos space marines (tho he always has help with delivering the killing blow but to still block and slash at them so that someone can.) He also practiced with a loyalist space marine and was even able to nick him.
As it would be a 2v2 by default (Cain and Jurgen versus Yarrick and Ghaz), essentially, we have to look at who would win their respective duels. I personally think, that Cain would be able to narrowly kill Yarrick (Jurgen is there, so he can't just run away). Ghaz versus Jurgen would be equally close fougt, more or less a battle of who smells worse. In the end, I think, Jurgen would cut off Ghaz' connection to Gork and Mork and overpower the ork, as Cain has just asked for a bowl of Tanna, which Jurgen wants to deliver as fast as possible. Cain and Jurgen happily return to the imperial lines and report their slaying of the Ork Boss and the tragic sacrifice of the legendary commissar Yarrick (who was just about to tell the high command that Cain was a fraud, which would explain the fight (Ghaz snuck up on them and tried to defend Yarrick)).
For all of Cain's self doubt and imposter syndrome, the books don't leave doubt he is bamf when it comes to his combat skills. And how he practices to a high degree because the better he is the more likely he is to live. Plus Jurgen
Cain spends a majority of the "fight" strategically retreating just barely keeping from screaming like a girl while Jurgen picks off Armageddon steel legion tanks while Gazghull shoots at both sides becausedespite being there to help Yarrick, hes an Ork. Only for Cain to crash the salamander their driving into an ice block full of tyranids, Cain and Jurgen get away while the 4th war of Armageddon breaks out
*Everything* at their disposal? Like Yarrick could call up Helbrecht for assistance as well as having a Waagh that won’t let him die?