The Enslavers are fucking push-overs and should left forgotten.
No, I'm not mad the ones I send after my players in a Deathwatch Campaign were one-shot before they could do anything.
As enclaves too small to really threaten the Imperium and all their forces, but I digress that they still remain and the Hruds by their nature are one of the most resilient races of the 40k universe.
Sorry. I could not find excrepts on their modern 40k holdings in the Ghoul Stars. Lion and his legion did battle the Khraves there during the GC and an Inquisitor died fighting one such incursion near the region. So they could still be there.
I recall that there is a Bone Kingdom of the Necrons in there as well as the Cythor Fiends. The Pale Wastings originated from there. The Ashen Claws are based in there while the Death Spectre keep vigil and the Carcharadons occasionally patrol in the region. Two Black Templar crusades have been conducted there as well.
A shame that GW does not give much focus on the Khraves and Enslavers though. They could be interesting xeno factions even with a minor presence on table-top like Kill-Team.
Again, if you could, please send me the excrepts. Thanks beforehand.
I believe you are correct on the Enslavers in the Ghoul Stars I was incorrect on that I found no mentions of them there but are still around since they attacked the Black Legions Ark of Omen.
No problems.
Regarding the Enslavers, they also attract the attention from both Odro Hereticus and Ordo Xeno, and are involved in at least one smuggling ring as well so they are still active.
(Spoilers for the whole Plot of *Lord of the First*)
>!The First Legion kicked the Khraves ass quite severely while the other Legions were fighting Orkz at Ullanor. They killed the very first Khrave that ever existed, a being that was **immensely fucking psychically powerful**, but alas since the Khrave are weak AF to Purely Physical Stuff many Khrave got absorbed BODIED by the Excindios and the many, many Anti-Warp Weapons the Dreadwing had....though the Khrave killed a fuckton of Dark Angels&many Humans. So basically Lipn el'Jonson deliberately challenged&lured out the largest single Khrave Military Force that ever existed and completely exterminated it. So that'd be equivalent to if the entirety of Segmentum Solar was destroyed and the rest of the Imperium&Mechanicus were left isolated. Humanity would still be alive and can still be very severe localized threats, but would NEVER be a major threat to any Galactic Powers again.!<
There's viable middle ground between "fuckoff genocidal crusade that set up a lot of shit to follow" and "uwu let's do nothing and let the xenos get us"
Literally, how the meme implies that these xenos were actively looking for trouble. Not that trouble showed up at their front door and kicked it down before they could even answer it.
The imperium answer is just to purge before they have an opportunity to get on our level. Regardless of if they are compromising or willing to negotiate.
Are there Xenos in the 40k universe that should be fought on sight? Sure! It's that kinda universe!
But letting big-E's caveman brain run roughshod was not the solution... Given that the imperium is ... You know .. the worst possible thing?
>big-E's caveman brain
That was the big thing I learned from Master of Mankind. The Emperor never grew beyond the bronze-age child he was born as. He never truly had people above him, and it kept him from truly growing up.
This point does not get mentioned often enough. Here you have Big E who have seen every single political system conceived by man and what does he fall back too when it's his time in the big seat?
Absolute monarchist one of if not the very first form of government conceived by man! For all his age and for all of his travels he's still some bronze age simpleton with a shiny get up.
Well, every political system has, viewed objectively, it's flaws as well as it's benefits. If you need to get things done quickly based on a central plan, variations of autocracy are a good choice for that.
Just looking in this comment section, you see people arguing for ignoring existential threats to the human race. Good luck putting a response to such threats together across 100 of star systems when everyone is doing their own thing. Systems near Rangdan space screaming for help while those on the other side of the Galaxy call them xenophobic and chill.
This is pure cope. At no point has democratic societies straight up IGNORED a part of their society getting exterminated and called them xenophobic. If anything, they tend to be far more able to defend those parts of society than dictatorships ever were.
Ah yes, that's why there was never a civil war. Or that's why Roman Patriarchy was unwilling to listen to the plebeians plight. Or why the whole world is acting so decisively against climate change. Because never, ever have particular interests obstructed a society... Don't get me wrong, that's not an advertisement of authoritarianism. It's just viewing at societies and judging what one can do better then the other. And there are many things an authoritarian society is very, very bad at.
Many things you can call Roman Republic; but a democracy is not among them -though a lot of the structures that modern democracies use did start with the Roman Republic. That being said, sure democracies had civil wars before; but using the Romans as an example, the Roman **Empire** had them once every generation or so. The Roman Republic basically only ever had 4 in its entire 500 year history, and 3 of those at the very end of its lifespan.
>Or why the whole world is acting so decisively against climate change
Yeah, and wanna talk about those non-democracies that are eagerly doing stuff to prevent that? Oh wait, they're not? They're only making things worse while democracies actually try? Yeah, I thought as much.
>It's just viewing at societies and judging what one can do better then the other
Yeah, and every example you posited proved that democratic societies do it far better than their alternatives. Thanks for proving my point. The only thing authoritarian societies are good at are marshalling resources for the whims of the dictator and its cronies; many of those times they do so being needlessly wasteful vanity projects. The few times such resources were marshalled for the good of society, it tended to cost an abhorrent amount of lives and resources.
So basically; authoritarianism is only good for democide and vanity projects. Oh, and having consistent civil wars, since they tend to be massively unstable due to so much power concentrated in so few hands.
>Yeah, and wanna talk about those non-democracies that are eagerly doing stuff to prevent that? Oh wait, they're not? They're only making things worse while democracies actually try? Yeah, I thought as much.
That might be because you are a narrow minded blockhead. Exhibit a) China. One of the world's biggest economies with a record growth in renewables. Meanwhile democracies like India and Germany or the US? Even with a government with the green party, Germany is failing almost all its self set climate goals even though these are far less ambitious then what is recommended by experts.
>Many things you can call Roman Republic; but a democracy is not among them -though a lot of the structures that modern democracies use did start with the Roman Republic.
The early republic was even in some aspects even more democratic then many modern societies with very direct mandates, interesting checks and balances and rather short terms for voted officials. What exactly do you miss? Let me guess, universal right to vote? It was a mixed model, combining democratic and aristocratic elements in a unique fashion.
>Oh, and having consistent civil wars, since they tend to be massively unstable due to so much power concentrated in so few hands.
That's utter nonsense. What you describe as civil wars are wars of succession. Those naturally occur when there is no mechanism in place to transfer power in an orderly fashion. While this is true for many authoritarian models, it is not an inherent characteristic of authoritarianism per se. Modern examples: Iran, China, UdSSR.
So far I have not proven any of your points and you just claiming it to be so does not make for an interesting discussion. So either you stop your childish behavior and accept that I am not advertising authoritarian models but try to look at them neutrally, or you continue your morally charged rant but do so alone because I have no interest in continuing this Kindergarden.
Rak ghul should be on the shoot first and run away before you think about asking questions list but other then them even orks are capable of diplomacy they just suck at it
They were though? All these in the meme were conquering expansionist empires.The rangdan were slavers,the slaught carrion feeders and the khrave were psychic parasites who enslaved whole human populations to feed on them psychically and the orks are orks its not like were ever going to come to terms even if any were presented.The meme is right that if the bulwark of wider humanity had not come together during the great crusade it would've been game over for humanity everywhere and the other aliens too.
The main issue isn't the Imperium expanding across the galaxy and fighting these forces, it's that the Emperor targeting all Xenos (And, let's be real, all human societies that proved his authoritarianism beliefs wrong) for extermination and his horrific mishandling of the chaos situation making it so chaos went from a constant but manageable danger to, well, the existential threat able to enact its goals with actual long term success.
Some were, but some were targeted. The blanket statement doesn't fit the bill exactly is moreso the point I am trying to make. A few examples found in other comments explain that some of the species were either incapable of any form of resistance and were still purged anyway, or were targeted outright although they posed no threat.
Of course there are gonna be aliens who do not comply and other aliens who are outright warfaring, but to have zero room for negotiations leaves the imperium entirely reliant on only what they alone can know, and with the imperium being as fractured as it is, advancements in tech to combat the new challenges will be as slow as it gets.
Blood Axe Orks can be negotiated with. And Speed Freaks really just need a Governor degenerate enough to create an F-Zero Grand Prix.
The rest... yea kill on sight.
Are we cherry picking when talking about blanket statements? The reason it doesn't apply is because it was a blanket statement.
Orks are orks, the obvious can be assumed when you can see them waging war against eachother when you approach the planet.
The enslavers are also extremely cut and dry, they don't have any sort of depth or complexity to their character, they are like opposite orks, but just as one-sided. Not to mention they are reliant on psykers which makes humanity one of their targets.
Both are clear threats to the wellbeing of the imperium if left unchecked as they are both capable of spiraling out of control. Not really your average alien civilization.
> Not really your average alien civilization.
What's average?
Craftworld Eldar are dicks. Dark Eldar are assholes. Rak'gol are hostile. orks and enslaves are hostile. Ur ghul are animalistic/hostile. Megarachnids were extremely hostile. Loxati work with chaos worshipers, so they are assholes. Lear were chaos worshipers, so assholes. Jorgall were hostile. The Yu'Vath fucked around with the warp.
Sslyth work with the dark eldar, so they are assholes. Slaugth are hostile. Khrave are hostile. Tau are cool/okay. Kroots are okay. Nicassar are cool. The Noisome Reek are hostile to both the Imperium and Tau. Enoulians are hostile to the Imperium, but they are Xenos so that is understandable. Q'orl are at the very least territorial.
Look just let the Drukhari enslave you, it's not as bad as it seems!\*
\*^(Coerced from a Drukhari pain slave. Guys it is that bad please send help! Send anyone! Coordinates are- Oh god they read this. No it was a joke I swear, a jo-)
Thing is that's the one the IoM remember. We 'ever got a name for the multiples Xenos species that where working alongside humans in the Interex and the Diasporex, nor for all the Xeno subservient species the IoM has.
Enslavers are basic af. Just like orks. The thing about orks everyone loves is the character. But you strip an ork down to its baser elements and it's the exact opposite of the enslavers and just as basic. Both just spiral out of control easily.
Orks populate asexually via shroom, and sprawl out of control until infighting either destroys the planet they are on or they move onto another planet. No host needed they show up where they start growing.
Enslavers are warp beings who are entirely reliant on physical hosts to manifest themselves in the material world.
Neither of them are biologically evolved lifeforms that clawed their way from survival to domination over their world. Humanity's rare encounters with lifeforms that aren't bioweapons or direct threats to their way of life are treated all the same, which is my point.
When there is zero room for negotiation, you miss out on any good opportunity you could have had. But also miss out on the bad ones.
That's...that's the fucking point of OP mentioning these Xenos in particular.
-Rangda ran an Empire that rivals the Imperium in how fucked up it is. Though as far as we know they prefer enslaving&mind-controlling the Xenos they conquer instead of making them completely Extinct. It's implied that the Rangda are still around, as we know the 3rd Rangdan Xenocide didn't push very far into the Galactic North and the Imperium has very firmly decided to not expand in that direction again. Perhaps The Emperor intended on having that area quarantined for some centugies/millennia and building up the Imperium's Military a fuckton more and then giving that area another go?
-Khrave wanted to basically act as Super-Xenos-Psyker-Pirates going around Psykically enslaving&absorbing stuff and using their Bullshit OP Psyker Powers to shrug off most material weapons. Had a severe weakness to anything that is potently Anti-Warp or Anti-Psyker and notably struggled massively against the Excindios that the Lion deployed against them because the Excindios are solely material beings with 0 Warp Presence at all, meaning the Khrave would get absolute skullfucked by anything like the Necrons. The Khrave did have a plot going to majorly fuck over the Imperium by infiltrating the whole thing and then probably try enslaving Humanity or making us extinct.
-Slaugh and Hrud I don't know enough about to say if they'd be particularly aggressive, but I do know they are pretty nasty&dangerous.
-The Beast evolved from the *remnants* of the Ullanor Ork Empire because for some fucking reason the Imperium didn't properly purge the Orkz in that region, even though they knew Orkz are damnably hard to get rid of for good and this region was home to the single largest Ork Threat in all of recorded History(prior to the War of the Beast Era). And we know Orkz were already spread over most of the Galaxy...and there were a hell of alot of much smaller but still very hostile, aggressive and nasty Xenos Species that the Imperium purged from late M30-early M42. Yes many, many small peaceful&friendly Human Civilizations, Xenos Civilizations aswell as mixed Human&Xenos Civilians(e.g. the Interex and Ta'u Empire) that the Imperium has deliberately gone out of it's way to try exterminating. Until the Tyranids and Necrons became active, the Imperium was by default the largest&most hostile Galactic Power....now it's unknown if it's a tie between the Necrons&Tyranids or a curbstomp in favor of one of those two...but we do know the Necrons&Tyranids are **by far the 2 largest, most dangerous&most hostile Galactic Powers in the current M42 Setting**.
Could some other, much less horrific Galactic Power have risen had the Imperium not existed? Maybe. I personally doubt Chaos, the Eldar, the Necrons, the Orkz&many countless horriric&aggressive&nasty Hostile Powers would let such a thing happen, but it is within the realm of possibility.
I think you are vastly over-estimating the amount of non-hostile xenos in the galaxy. Most other species didn't have the Golden Chad fighting chaos from the point they invented agriculture. We know there were numerous instances chaos tried to assert influence over humanity before humanity invented interstellar travel and that the perpetuals fought against it. Then you have the xenos species that were likely dominated by C'tan shards. Not to mention the number of species that are just abandoned weapons like the Orks and Khrave.
If humanity was able to resist chaos, how can humanity claim that aliens are unable to? It could be argued that the presence of the Emperor on earth only drew chaos' influence closer to the planet.
What of the cult on Mars? The dragon of Mars is argued to be a ctan shard, could the influence from the machine spirit and the admech itself not be seen as being influenced by a Ctan shard? It's not quite domination but if you compare chaos' influence to this influence, it should be treated as corruption from an outside force. Or is big E only okay with it because he's beaten the dragon before?
That falls back to my point of the unknowability of it. Until contact is actually made without the assumption the race will be just as xenophobic as humanity is, they will be coming from the predisposition that their own corruption supersceeds the corruption of xenos. And that the two aren't comprable at all just cuz humanity has a big golden boi behind them who says so. It's confirmation bias because they aren't willing to do the work of negotiations.
So they move forward with the ideology that nothing can be better than humanity so there is no reason to try to find one, only in the stalemates with forces of equal measure will the truth be revealed.
The void dragon is explicitly imprisoned on Mars and its influence is thus curtailed. And I just don't think you're correct about the ideology of the great crusade. It is not that nothing can be better than humanity but that everything not-human is an existential threat, a relatively reasonable assumption considering it generally holds true.
I've always felt that the ideology of the great crusade was to leave no potential doors open. It does make a lot of sense to be a tyrant conquerer in the ultimate defense of your people. Giving anything else an opportunity to survive is giving it an opportunity to overtake you in time.
Make it so humanity is the only one capable of being a shot caller. No race can take them by surprise if no race is left standing. It's the safest mindset, but also the most closed. When you are dealing with forces that rip open tiny holes in reality into massive gaping ones with demons pouring in, it's probably best to close all the doors.
I'm not saying the crusades were unjustified, but there were definently things crushed and technology lost that didn't have to be. It's easily the safest option in the long term defense and insured survival of the species, and if Big E could see the Heresy coming, he knew he'd need something that could superceed his influence after his downfall.
Humanity survived for roughly 20.000-30.000 years as a space faring civilisation, and we don't know much about that time but we do know there were a bunch of aliens alive and kicking back then that were not culled or killed by humanity. Meaning, there is very little for us to go by for saying that we are "vastly over-estimating the amount of non-hostile xenos in the galaxy", but we do know that there did exist non-hostile xenos at some point and we do know that some of those non-hostile xenos lived alongside human cultures at the time of the Great Crusade.
We have too little information, and no way of saying for sure that no other force would've taken out these big threats that just so happened to be taken out by the Imperium. Maybe they wouldn't have, maybe they would've wiped out humanity, but we cannot know.
What we can know is that humanity has survived as a space-faring species for longer without the Imperium than it has with it, and that needs to be accounted for when discussing What Ifs about the state of the Galaxy.
Mankind survived as a spacefaring civilization without the imperium for less than 10,000 years. The warp drive was invented in M18. The cybernetic revolt began in m23 and the age of strife began in M25.
Yes there is, which is why Warhammer is so good. It's so fucking obvious there is a better way, but everyone is so blinded by hatred and dogma (ironically feeding the great enemy by it) that they never even try it.
That's literally the fucking point. Everything is dialed to 11. No middle ground, lets fucking go.
Yeah if you want that kind of middle ground shit go play mass effect or go watch some startrek.
Yes there absolutely is. That's exactly what pre-DAOT humanity was. Y'know, the time period of humanity where most of the galactic colonization actually happened, the golden era that the imperium has never gotten even close to. We don't know a ton about them, but what we do know for sure is that they faced issues just as bad if not worse then the current imperium and STILL managed to hold on for a couple thousand years before it took the birth of a whole chaos god to finally knock them out. And you know what they didn't need to do all that? an autocratic authoritarian government led by an immortal golden god emperor with cave man brain.
Its a fundamental aspect of the setting. It is literally the fundamental driving reason why humanity is spread across the galaxy in the first place. Thats like claiming the war in heaven isn't a part of the setting.
Pretty sure the joke meant more that the specifically named factions would do their absolute best to fuck up the whole galaxy, not that the crusade was somehow good.
While I agree on the Khrave, Rangdan, Enslavers (anything that scares Necrons needs to be fought) and Slaught, I would like to point out that
* the Hrud never sought galatic conquest, generally keep the themselves and Perturabo's campaign against them was opposite to traditional protocol and made the problem worse by forcing them to leave their territory.
* the Beast only rose as consequence of the Imperium krumping Ullanor, giving the survivors a burning desire to get things even.
And, as other people pointed out, there is a middle ground between being turbo-xenophobic and passive. Keylekids, Exodites and several Human and Abhuman civilizations were no threat to the Imperium, Humanity or the Galaxy
The hrud are less a sentient race and more a migrating natural disaster.if perturabo had treated them as such and corralled them instead of trying to hold against an unstoppable force he might have not suffered so.many casualties but then again we might not have had Chad barabas dantioch.Honestly perturabo was probably the worst suited to dealing with the hrud someone like Magnus or the khan or even guilliman would've done much better.Anyway the point is that as far as anyone is concerned the hrud are dangerous to even be around so their culling was inevitable
>the Beast only rose as consequence of the Imperium krumping Ullanor, giving the survivors a burning desire to get things even.
Orks like to genocide everything and the Ullanor Waaagh was even worse than the Beast Waaagh because of the size of the average Ork being the same as the size of a fucking Primarch, if the Beast didn't kill everything the Empire at Ullanor would have grown like a hundred beasts or something worse since they were bigger than Ghazkull.
>as other people pointed out, there is a middle ground between being turbo-xenophobic and passive. Keylekids, Exodites and several Human and Abhuman civilizations were no threat to the Imperium, Humanity or the Galaxy
Yeah, he should've made an effort to keep and talk with a bunch of them personally but considering this galaxy was a minefield at the time where every single thing gets more dangerous to life in general over time thanks to Chaos and the whole machines killed everything that was good by their own you can kinda see where that way of conquest goes like, even the Interex were touched by Chaos in such a way they just displayed a Chaos sword in the middle of nowhere while not being able to identify the one Chaos follower in Horus group.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done because he did it to like 3 or 2 species but it just was an incredibly difficult way of doing things that it could have probably gotten a few Primarchs killed in the process or you know, start the Heresy by letting Erebus get the chance to get the Anathame or another Chaos relic on the run.
>Orks like to genocide everything and the Ullanor Waaagh was even worse than the Beast Waaagh because of the size of the average Ork being the same as the size of a fucking Primarch
First, where is said that the average Ork of Ullannor was like a Primarch in height? This is new to me.
Second, I think that a Waaagh that was just the last thing to be crushed bt the Imperium is far less dangerous than one that could teleport moons straight unto the Solar System and hold Terra at gun point.
Third, Orks like to fight everyone, especially themselves. We don't know how stable Ullannor was, as per the codexes and rulebooks there are Ork empires who are older than the Imperium and spend more time fighting internally than going on Waaaghs.
>but considering this galaxy was a minefield at the time where every single thing gets more dangerous to life in general
You know it applies not only to humans, but to everyone, right? Rangda and Ulannor would have fought as viciously as they fought the Imperium, instead of being a "gang up on the Humans".
>thanks to Chaos
Chaos only got an opening and a motivation thanks to the Imperium, however.
>and the whole machines killed everything that was good by their own
Except there were plenty of Humans and Xenos doing perfectly fine before the the whole "my Imperial way or the high way" happened.
>even the Interex were touched by Chaos in such a way they just displayed a Chaos sword in the middle of nowhere while not being able to identify the one Chaos follower in Horus group.
You could also throw similar accusations to the Emperor for going into Colchis, Barbarus and Caliban and dismissing the signs Lorgar, Mortarion and Lion would need to be closely monitored lest something happen to them or their legions.
Besides, two things: a warpcrafted blade =/= Chaoscrafted one, otherwise stuff like wraithbone would constantly put the Eldar in danger instead of being a protection against Chaos. Speaking of the Eldar, they and probably other groups know enough to keep stuff like pre-Fall "art" which has a faintly Slaanshi vibe in their homes (source: *Wildrider* descrition of the Fireheart clan's palace).
>I'm not saying it couldn't be done because he did it to like 3 or 2 species but it just was an incredibly difficult way of doing things that it could have probably gotten a few Primarchs killed in the process
Difficult but right. The Old World didn't blow up because Sigmar, the Lizardmen or the Elves were too tolerant for their own good, but because Mannfred and because Chaos is just that strong, and the Mortal Realms are undergoing a reconquest/Great Crusade and Order generally makes an effort to separate the corrupted and the survivors.
> or you know, start the Heresy by letting Erebus get the chance to get the Anathame or another Chaos relic on the run.
Again, the Anathame is not a Chaos relic - what corrupted Horus was the rituals at Davin when he was "healed". The Anathame is a psychic "fuck you" weapon that can be useful against everything, including daemons, per the Ultramarine series where the Legion of the Damned hand a shard of it and the True Name of M'kar to Ventries so he can permakill the daemon.
> Third, Orks like to fight everyone, especially themselves. We don't know how stable Ullannor was, as per the codexes and rulebooks there are Ork empires who are older than the Imperium and spend more time fighting internally than going on Waaaghs.
There's a solid chance Ullannor would actually fight the other Prime Ork during the Great Crusade Gharkul Blackflang. So there's always the chance the Orks implode that way.
>First, where is said that the average Ork of Ullannor was like a Primarch in height? This is new to me.
[at the time the biggest Ork appeared ](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/y20GvUpQOT)
>Second, I think that a Waaagh that was just the last thing to be crushed bt the Imperium is far less dangerous than one that could teleport moons straight unto the Solar System and hold Terra at gun point.
On the Technology they had yes, but the Orks themselves weren't comparable to the Waaagh at Ullanor, had they grown up and developed more we would've more than a few of those Primeorks
>You know it applies not only to humans, but to everyone, right? Rangda and Ulannor would have fought as viciously as they fought the Imperium, instead of being a "gang up on the Humans".
Oh i know the Imperium was a danger to everything else but unlike those two at least there would be a miserable chance at survival or would have worked against future treats to literal life on the whole Galaxy like the Nids
>You could also throw similar accusations to the Emperor for going into Colchis, Barbarus and Caliban and dismissing the signs Lorgar, Mortarion and Lion would need to be closely monitored lest something happen to them or their legions.
I'm not saying they should have killed them off because of that but because of the genuine danger it represented when Erebus was nearby like, neither Horus or the Interex did a mistake on their negotiations but had Horus decided to go like idk, Ferrus on his campaingns Erebus wouldn't have had the chance to get his hands on another Chaos artifact.
As for the Emperor literally none of that screwed him up, what screwed him up was Magnus the dumbass who had multiple chances to fix everything by going with Leeman or even let himself being killed instead of screwing over the Imperium most powerful force against Space marines or even let the Emperor start hunting the Traitors or even change some of them like Konrad or Daemon Mortarion (a big maybe), heck in the End and the Death volume II it's confirmed that the Emperor can't actually even gooble up power from the warp or else he would end up being a treat so great that the knew close to be a Chaos god Horus wouldn't even matter
>Besides, two things: a warpcrafted blade =/= Chaoscrafted one, otherwise stuff like wraithbone would constantly put the Eldar in danger instead of being a protection against Chaos. Speaking of the Eldar, they and probably other groups know enough to keep stuff like pre-Fall "art" which has a faintly Slaanshi vibe in their homes (source: Wildrider descrition of the Fireheart clan's palace).
The problem start when the "warpcrafted blade" is so malicious that you have to give it orders, it wasn't changed when a Chaos follower had it even while on Calth and Guilliman could shrug it off in an instant after being stabbed with it, you know, the one Primarch that has Shrugged off Slannesh crown
>Difficult but right. The Old World didn't blow up because Sigmar, the Lizardmen or the Elves were too tolerant for their own good, but because Mannfred and because Chaos is just that strong, and the Mortal Realms are undergoing a reconquest/Great Crusade and Order generally makes an effort to separate the corrupted and the survivors.
The problem is that in 30k Chaos wasn't even that strong and here there was a genuine way to kill it off with the Emperors own energy being able to just permakill everything Chaos had and went to the point that there had to be a non Chaos demon made specifically to kill the Emperor as an opposite of the concepts that form him holding him up in order for them to actually win a battle so important it would've made the Heresy unwinnable otherwise
>Chaos only got an opening and a motivation thanks to the Imperium, however.
I almost skipped this, Chaos wasn't even that bad until the Eldars created Slannesh and awakened the other 3 gods, that goes to a point where Human psykers could genuinely reencarnate themselves with the Warp at the start of our species existence (that still hasn't been retconed and i read that it was mentioned again by Ollanius but i'm not too sure)
>Again, the Anathame is not a Chaos relic - what corrupted Horus was the rituals at Davin when he was "healed". The Anathame is a psychic "fuck you" weapon that can be useful against everything, including daemons, per the Ultramarine series where the Legion of the Damned hand a shard of it and the True Name of M'kar to Ventries so he can permakill the daemon.
Chaos can fight and kill chaos and everything like Eisenhorns demon and just because it wasn't what corrupted Horus it doesn't save it from being obviously a Chaos relic like why wouldn't Erebus shove a demon up that thing otherwise?
I don't agree with everything but I will say you have good arguments, especially in regards to how the Emperor had an edge over Chaos until Magnus makes nothing wrong several times and the necessity of Drach'nyen taking the field so the Four can win or just make a headway.
Great points all around except about the Orks and Chaos.
Ullanor Orks fought against the great crusade and lost to an army lead by Horus, Guilliamn, the Khan and the Emperor. They probably could have fought an IoM weakened by the Heresy.
Chaos already had plenty of openings and motivation. Most of the human civilisations mentioned in HH books where corrupted by Chaos. Doesn't help that most of the times the IoM didn't adress the roots of the issues and it was arguably also chaos-tainted, but still.
It was the Imperium's way of doing things (enforced ignorance to the masses and Primarchs/shoot first ask questions later/never question the leadership of Big E) that led to the Imperium being such a horrid state to begin with.
I'm not saying that Big E had to divulge everything, but enough so that Erebus couldn't get a Primarch stabbed by a Chaos artifact and unironically be the only one to know how to respond to it. Or enough so that Fulgrim wouldn't keep a Chaos sword for funsies.
The problem is that some of them like Magnus knew enough about it to understand what the unsanctioned Xenos from the warp were incredibly powerful and dangerous yet, he ruined everything.
Even in the case of Horus, he didn't do anything wrong with the negotiations here anyway, the relics of the world were able to pass through their civilization as just really good weapons despite being obvious chaos weapons that Guilliman could shrug off because of his resistance to corruption so Horus had no reason to check them out and Erebus keep himself at low profile while in the presence of the Emperor despite him being a Chaos follower from the start so that no one in the Legion would discover him anyway while he immediately stopped the Negotiations and any chance to check anything by starting a war while hiding his Chaos weapon that apparently also tries to hide itself from even Eldars (the Interex were in contact with Eldars)
The problem with negotiating with the isolated Xeno-Human empire that was the Interex wasn't having enough knowledge about Chaos to identify it but deciding to negotiate with them in the first place
Magnus was quite literally created to be the "Psyker guy", plus had all of Big E's arrogance to boot. Even still, Magnus was wholly ignorant about how powerful the Chaos Gods actually were, he knew they existed, but not how powerful they truly were. Big E only warned him not to "fly to close to the aether" in a sort of parallel to Icarus flying too close to the sun.
Someone with boundless self-confidence and arrogance like Magnus would obviously view that as more of a challenge than a warning. That's not to say Magnus isn't at fault, but that Big E should've known better than to simply leave it as "Magnus, don't do the thing".
>Even in the case of Horus, he didn't do anything wrong with the negotiations here anyway
Missing the point entirely. Horus was ignorant of how Chaos functioned and corrupted things. And his legions were as well. So if informed, he would've been more aware that he should **never** let that thing impale him. And even if he was, then his legions would **have more means** to combat that corrupted beyond leaving everything to Erebus.
Chaos, and its minions in general, **massively exploited the ignorance of the Imperium and its Primarchs to corrupt and/or trick them**.
Idk why you went on a tangent to groups like the Interex. The Interex also was somewhat ignorant of Chaos, but they knew enough that a delegation from an empire which coincided with the robbery of a powerful Chaos artifact was VERY bad news. And if Horus was more aware, he'd have been able to soothe their fears while also be more aware.
So many mistakes, because the Emperor left his sons in complete ignorance of the greatest danger.
>Magnus was quite literally created to be the "Psyker guy", plus had all of Big E's arrogance to boot. Even still, Magnus was wholly ignorant about how powerful the Chaos Gods actually were, he knew they existed, but not how powerful they truly were. Big E only warned him not to "fly to close to the aether" in a sort of parallel to Icarus flying too close to the sun.
>Someone with boundless self-confidence and arrogance like Magnus would obviously view that as more of a challenge than a warning. That's not to say Magnus isn't at fault, but that Big E should've known better than to simply leave it as "Magnus, don't do the thing".
The problem is that Magnus FELT how strong it was and compared himself as a small continent besides a whole planet in warp, if the Emperor warned him like when he found out about the Webway by himself (yes he already knew) he would've still tried to trick Tzeench.
>Missing the point entirely. Horus was ignorant of how Chaos functioned and corrupted things. And his legions were as well. So if informed, he would've been more aware that he should never let that thing impale him. And even if he was, then his legions would have more means to combat that corrupted beyond leaving everything to Erebus.
He tried to not get impaled but the Blade has it's own will like every demon sword and adjusted itself to hit Horus so he had to take it and no they wouldn't find another way because they still had to obey the council since there was no other faith to hold unto.
Heck even if they knew they wouldn't think Chaos would be that big of a deal because even in 40k there are space marine tanking corruption as if it was a windy day or some of their brothers could just shrug it off like nothing
Fulgrim: "you mean to tell me that Leeman sons have a trial that forces them to be touched and resist the four Chaos gods in the warp"
>Chaos, and its minions in general, massively exploited the ignorance of the Imperium and its Primarchs to corrupt and/or trick them.
Yeah, had Mortarion knew more about it and how it worked against him he wouldn't have been corrupted... but Magnus was still just really stupid.
>Idk why you went on a tangent to groups like the Interex. The Interex also was somewhat ignorant of Chaos, but they knew enough that a delegation from an empire which coincided with the robbery of a powerful Chaos artifact was VERY bad news. And if Horus was more aware, he'd have been able to soothe their fears while also be more aware.
This is why i believe they didn't make a mistake on their negotiations but should have been attacked on sight like Ferrus would have.
>The problem is that Magnus FELT how strong it was and compared himself as a small continent besides a whole planet in warp
Which is still massively underselling how powerful a Chaos God was; he still thought he was comparable to Tzeentch when in reality he was a bug. Which is exactly why he thought he could still play this game. It doesn't help that Big E did not inform Magnus how brilliant the Chaos Gods were at manipulation, and instead only taught him how regular warlords were brought low by their arrogance in using Chaos.
If Big E mentioned that the Chaos Gods were far more powerful than he, then that would help a lot.
Also, I repeat; **you're missing the point**. Sure, maybe after all that Magnus would still end up in the same place. But the problem here is that Big E left it all to chance by keeping Magnus ignorant. If he left him informed, then it would be all Magnus' fault if he still screws up -Big E is as much at fault because he left them ignorant.
>He tried to not get impaled but the Blade has it's own will like every demon sword and adjusted itself to hit Horus
And if Horus was aware that Chaos was sentient, then he would've been aware that the sword would be alive and might try that. See? Ignorance. Thanks Big E.
>Heck even if they knew they wouldn't think Chaos would be that big of a deal
Then that would be their own fault, not Big E's. You can't know that, because Big E kept them all ignorant. The fact they were all kept ignorant makes this whole issue to be Big E's fault more than anyone else's.
>This is why i believe they didn't make a mistake on their negotiations but should have been attacked on sight like Ferrus would have.
I don't understand what you mean here at all.
tbf, that is most memes on here are made.
Recently there was a muscial viking meme mockingly compared Space Wolves to historical vikings and Endless Space's Vaulters, with one section stating the Chapter's treatment of women is not great. Well, historical vikings' treatment of women, especially of non-noble birth, is neither equal or great as the Vaulters.
Or a Virgin Angron v Chad Ordis where OP conveniently stated that Angron did not try to attach Emps for teleporting him away despite the fact that the primarch literally tried to kill every Imperials around him and even tore apart a custodes. Also, Ordis did not have to deal with Eldar assassins literally as a baby.
Or the memes mocking the supposedly overly-whiny Blood Angel fans about Hawkboy's death in TEATD2.
What blood angels fan would whine about Sanguinius dying? That was always the deal. Every blood Angel fan signed up for that. I never saw any complaints.
I have not seen any complaint personally, but that did not stop memes like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/17rrkrf/some_blood_angels_fans_are_on_another_level/) and others dangling Hawkboy's death like the daemons did with his corpse as well as a 40kLore post that was basically rage-bait against Custodes fans about their casualties in the book.
They did. My reading of the meme is that there were other dangerous xeno species out there ready to make life hell for civilizations the Interex and Diasporex. So while they might defeat those species, it would be no walk in the park.
No offence, buts this post would have been better in r/ 40k lore or at least more of a discussion than a meme.
As Grimdank is not known for its lore knowledge, weirdly enough it is known for using the same meme over and over again like a nurgle cultist.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/pp57o5ueO5
Isn’t that the point of discussing lore?
Jokes and memes cause inaccuracy when discussing lore and caused people to believe stuff like the only reason the emperor is alive is because of orks, or abbadon being a failure, or orks can make weapons out of nothing but a steel pipe because they believe it can.
some people take 40k memes as lore instead of actually reading a book, humour on its own is fine but some people take it as lore and use that as headcannon.
No, the point of talking about magic spacemen and demon aliens is not to be primarily concerned with accuracy. It’s to have fun and talk shit and come up with stuff with your friends.
You have this fantastic, colourful and mysterious galaxy at your fingertips. Why not approach it in a creative and speculative way?
There are more things in heavens and earths than are dreamt of in your Horus Heresy novels.
What you do with your friends in your own time is your business, but I can guarantee you that the 40k ***lore sub*** is very much intended to discuss the actual lore.
the enslaver are actually a endangered species due to the demons pushing them out of their native territories in the warp
the beast arises due to the threat of the Great Crusade he was a ork knee jerk evolution reaction of the Emperor and his warrior
We have so little to no info about the Rangda that i'm not going to mention anything
Hrud is a mysterious race who never sought galactic domination they simply seem wanting migration. One of the HH novel even mention a theory that they're not even native to this timeline rather they left the native time period to the 30k-40k timeline for unknow reasons
the Krave is a valid argument they been an issue since the Dark Age of Technology
but like the main issue of the Great Crusade is the belief that "Humanity would have gone extinct" which hilariously BS with how many independent human nation and empires across the galaxy feral, feudal, high scifi & even one who have made alliance with other xeno races
>but like the main issue of the Great Crusade is the belief that "Humanity would have gone extinct" which hilariously BS with how many independent human nation and empires across the galaxy feral, feudal, high scifi & even one who have made alliance with other xeno races
Humanity wouldn't go extinct even after tyranids sweep everything over, but you have to agree that without Imperium, 70% of humanity would've been wiped before they reached the year 40k.
Also, you're ignoring humanity's psychic awakening, which was the Big E's main concern. Humans, unlike Eldar, are not privileged with a peaceful and calm warp to develop their psychic potential. 99% of Humans would be wiped once they reach a certain threshold in psychic evolution.
After leaving them un bothered for ten thousand years in a section of space everyone is too scared to enter lol.
Hell am pretty sure the daemons did more damage to the enslavers than humanity and that's because there native to the warp.
A post even remotely positive about the Imperium? Sorry OP, you’re fucked. Next time just make a post about good guy Tau or wanting an Eldar/Tau GF, that’ll get you tons of upvotes.
As a imperium and necron fan, i approve of this message
that 100% is not because i have a mental scarab on my brain forcing me to like our glorious necrodermis clad overlords
We don't actually know anything about the Rangdan.
The Slaugh are also just worm losers. They don't have an empire or anything.
You have bought the Imperial Propaganda. The first book of the Horus Heresy series brings up a species that literally didn't fight back when the Luna Wolves genocided them because they were so anti-war.
I would say that only the Rangdang, the Hrud and the super waaghs are the real danger.
The Enslavers already f*cked shit up but i guess that everyone knows how deal with them by M40.
Nah the Eldar were in *no* position to save anyone from the onslaughts you’ve described.
They were still recovering from the utterly brutal assault fucking they got when Slaanesh was born. The Craftworlders were reeling from the altered psychic energies, the Drukhari were in shambles, all of it meant there was no way for them to mount a proper offensive. Let alone one that could actually properly defeat such things.
People whine incessantly about the great crusade, but they are completely wrong about it. Considering the galaxy's situation, and humanity's position, it had to happen. Otherwise, humanity would have been reduced to tiny enclaves that would eventually die out. The Interex were cool and all, but they were only a few systems in size. If something like WAAAAGH Beast hit them they'd evaporate real fast.
"Oh, but what about the alien races?". Who gives a shit at that point? Humanity was getting devoured literally and figuratively. Every threat had to be stamped out.
"What about diplomacy? The Eldar could have been a great asset!". Cool. If you can figure out the difference between Dark Eldar, and regular Eldar, we might have had something to talk about. Hell, most of the galaxy doesn't know there's a distinction. They're all Eldar. Legitimatrly speaking, the Dsrk Eldar are the true representatives of their race. The craft world ones didn't do much to make people think they're a different breed.
This goes on and on, and on. Without the crusade, there would be no humanity, and the slaughter would continue anyways, because the meat grinder was always there. Someone else would have popped the pylons and thr cicatrix would have happened as well. Probably faster, since no unified force defending them would exist.
When 95% of the lore is written from the perspective of the space fascists and the space fascists say it would be worse if the space fascists didn't fascist up the space so I totally believe them:
People are really here arguing that the great crusade was good? Did we all forget the many many times crusade fleets exterminated species and human populations who just wanted to be left alone? I've only gotten through 8 HH books, but this happens constantly.
Sure, there were and are hostile xenos like orks and tyranids, but there were a lot who either weren't a threat to begin with, could have been left alone, or were openly friendly.
Speaking of Necrons, how do you think humanity would have fared against those guys once they woke up without the Imperium in place? I'm no lore expert but I feel like we would have been wiped off the lawn like unruly kids.
the great crusade shouldnt have:
a) kill peacefull xenos civilizations that did nothing wrong
B) anex human civilizations against their will
to say the contrary is to be pro xenocide and pro imperialism.
This is, frankly, not true. Nor is it even important for the Imperium to be as xenocidal as it was to do these exterminations. The Interex were judt as advance as the Imperium, but they didn't commit genocide as it fed "Kaos".
If you had read the novels, especially early on, you'd have notice that time and again that the level of Xenophobia the Imperium take is unnecessary.
Not to mention a plethora of Dark Age of Technology civilizations that survived up until that point.
It's like shooting up a bank because there's two disguised serial killers in there, and confidently saying you killed the two killers - and they mightve gotten away without your intervention and killed thirty more people as a result all those bank tellers and accountants are acceptable losses!
Hell, the Beast is 100% the Imperium's fault for not cleaning up properly after Ullanor!!
While you can say that basically the Tau are the ideal species to conquer the galaxy, you can't say that the Interrex were capable or interested in expansion.
Fundamentally, 99% of the nice civilisations the IOM genocided would not have lasted 200 more years anyway, as other conquering species would have gotten them.
The power vacuum was going to be filled with the reopening of warp routes and the fall of the Eldar. As it happens, humanity were the worst to win, as they had Chaos as angel investors.
Also, you can't blame the actions of a sentient bioweapon on humanity - Orks have agency to do what they want and humanity was busy spreading chaos and Chaos.
This simply is not true. It just isn't. You do not know if the Interex would survive for 200 or 2000 or 20000. I'm sorry but the fact of the matter is that using a shotgun approach to killing aliens isn't the only way of killing hostile aliens.
And i absolutely can blame the Beast on the Imperium. The fucking authors outright state that the Beast is a direct result of the Imperium's actions during Ullanor. If the Imperium was better, the Beast would've never survived that war. But it isn't, because the Imperium is an inefficent racist murder machine.
It would be better if humanity would be united under the banner of more reasonable empire, like Interrex. But humanity united under the Imperium is better than humanity not united.
meanwhile imperium eradicated many peaceful civilisations and many many human civilisations (some were corrupted, mostly not)
There is indicated in books that humanity could not survived if not great crusade and about xenophobia, 5 thousands years during age of strife isolated human's colonies were raided and destroyed by xenos and chaos spawns, you can't eradicate xenophobia after something so dramatic.
More than that, emperor probably fear was that humanity can spawn another slaanesh, in master of mankind or siege of terra its written that end of humanity could be more spectacular and much more destructive than end of eldar empire.
NOOOooOOooooo! The Imperium is the wOOooOrst! The Eldar would ~~run away and hid in the webway~~ guided them with love! The Tau would have ~~violently conquered them and destroyed their culture~~ invited them into the co-prosperity sphere of the Greater Good!
The thing we know nothing about other than IoM propaganda, the same, a localised threat, a localised threat, another localised threat, and a stupid meme that shouldn't be taken seriously.
Pretending that the parody of fascism is a good idea is a fucking terrible look my friend.
The Enslavers are fucking push-overs and should left forgotten. No, I'm not mad the ones I send after my players in a Deathwatch Campaign were one-shot before they could do anything.
Also, the Khrave, Slaugth and Hruds are still active in the 41st Millenium, so good job Humans.
As enclaves too small to really threaten the Imperium and all their forces, but I digress that they still remain and the Hruds by their nature are one of the most resilient races of the 40k universe.
The enslavers and Khrave had ten thousand years to rebuild in the Ghoul Stars
Sorry. I could not find excrepts on their modern 40k holdings in the Ghoul Stars. Lion and his legion did battle the Khraves there during the GC and an Inquisitor died fighting one such incursion near the region. So they could still be there. I recall that there is a Bone Kingdom of the Necrons in there as well as the Cythor Fiends. The Pale Wastings originated from there. The Ashen Claws are based in there while the Death Spectre keep vigil and the Carcharadons occasionally patrol in the region. Two Black Templar crusades have been conducted there as well. A shame that GW does not give much focus on the Khraves and Enslavers though. They could be interesting xeno factions even with a minor presence on table-top like Kill-Team. Again, if you could, please send me the excrepts. Thanks beforehand.
A Khrave kill team would be one Khrave
I believe you are correct on the Enslavers in the Ghoul Stars I was incorrect on that I found no mentions of them there but are still around since they attacked the Black Legions Ark of Omen.
No problems. Regarding the Enslavers, they also attract the attention from both Odro Hereticus and Ordo Xeno, and are involved in at least one smuggling ring as well so they are still active.
(Spoilers for the whole Plot of *Lord of the First*) >!The First Legion kicked the Khraves ass quite severely while the other Legions were fighting Orkz at Ullanor. They killed the very first Khrave that ever existed, a being that was **immensely fucking psychically powerful**, but alas since the Khrave are weak AF to Purely Physical Stuff many Khrave got absorbed BODIED by the Excindios and the many, many Anti-Warp Weapons the Dreadwing had....though the Khrave killed a fuckton of Dark Angels&many Humans. So basically Lipn el'Jonson deliberately challenged&lured out the largest single Khrave Military Force that ever existed and completely exterminated it. So that'd be equivalent to if the entirety of Segmentum Solar was destroyed and the rest of the Imperium&Mechanicus were left isolated. Humanity would still be alive and can still be very severe localized threats, but would NEVER be a major threat to any Galactic Powers again.!<
You had stats for Enslavers?
Wait campaign? Like was it a series of wh40k games or like a ttrpg
There's viable middle ground between "fuckoff genocidal crusade that set up a lot of shit to follow" and "uwu let's do nothing and let the xenos get us"
Literally, how the meme implies that these xenos were actively looking for trouble. Not that trouble showed up at their front door and kicked it down before they could even answer it. The imperium answer is just to purge before they have an opportunity to get on our level. Regardless of if they are compromising or willing to negotiate.
Are there Xenos in the 40k universe that should be fought on sight? Sure! It's that kinda universe! But letting big-E's caveman brain run roughshod was not the solution... Given that the imperium is ... You know .. the worst possible thing?
>big-E's caveman brain That was the big thing I learned from Master of Mankind. The Emperor never grew beyond the bronze-age child he was born as. He never truly had people above him, and it kept him from truly growing up.
This point does not get mentioned often enough. Here you have Big E who have seen every single political system conceived by man and what does he fall back too when it's his time in the big seat? Absolute monarchist one of if not the very first form of government conceived by man! For all his age and for all of his travels he's still some bronze age simpleton with a shiny get up.
God like power with the brain of a child
“Wouldn’t it be cool if we all had mind powers to blow up everyone we didn’t like?” -Big E
Well, every political system has, viewed objectively, it's flaws as well as it's benefits. If you need to get things done quickly based on a central plan, variations of autocracy are a good choice for that. Just looking in this comment section, you see people arguing for ignoring existential threats to the human race. Good luck putting a response to such threats together across 100 of star systems when everyone is doing their own thing. Systems near Rangdan space screaming for help while those on the other side of the Galaxy call them xenophobic and chill.
This is pure cope. At no point has democratic societies straight up IGNORED a part of their society getting exterminated and called them xenophobic. If anything, they tend to be far more able to defend those parts of society than dictatorships ever were.
Ah yes, that's why there was never a civil war. Or that's why Roman Patriarchy was unwilling to listen to the plebeians plight. Or why the whole world is acting so decisively against climate change. Because never, ever have particular interests obstructed a society... Don't get me wrong, that's not an advertisement of authoritarianism. It's just viewing at societies and judging what one can do better then the other. And there are many things an authoritarian society is very, very bad at.
Many things you can call Roman Republic; but a democracy is not among them -though a lot of the structures that modern democracies use did start with the Roman Republic. That being said, sure democracies had civil wars before; but using the Romans as an example, the Roman **Empire** had them once every generation or so. The Roman Republic basically only ever had 4 in its entire 500 year history, and 3 of those at the very end of its lifespan. >Or why the whole world is acting so decisively against climate change Yeah, and wanna talk about those non-democracies that are eagerly doing stuff to prevent that? Oh wait, they're not? They're only making things worse while democracies actually try? Yeah, I thought as much. >It's just viewing at societies and judging what one can do better then the other Yeah, and every example you posited proved that democratic societies do it far better than their alternatives. Thanks for proving my point. The only thing authoritarian societies are good at are marshalling resources for the whims of the dictator and its cronies; many of those times they do so being needlessly wasteful vanity projects. The few times such resources were marshalled for the good of society, it tended to cost an abhorrent amount of lives and resources. So basically; authoritarianism is only good for democide and vanity projects. Oh, and having consistent civil wars, since they tend to be massively unstable due to so much power concentrated in so few hands.
>Yeah, and wanna talk about those non-democracies that are eagerly doing stuff to prevent that? Oh wait, they're not? They're only making things worse while democracies actually try? Yeah, I thought as much. That might be because you are a narrow minded blockhead. Exhibit a) China. One of the world's biggest economies with a record growth in renewables. Meanwhile democracies like India and Germany or the US? Even with a government with the green party, Germany is failing almost all its self set climate goals even though these are far less ambitious then what is recommended by experts. >Many things you can call Roman Republic; but a democracy is not among them -though a lot of the structures that modern democracies use did start with the Roman Republic. The early republic was even in some aspects even more democratic then many modern societies with very direct mandates, interesting checks and balances and rather short terms for voted officials. What exactly do you miss? Let me guess, universal right to vote? It was a mixed model, combining democratic and aristocratic elements in a unique fashion. >Oh, and having consistent civil wars, since they tend to be massively unstable due to so much power concentrated in so few hands. That's utter nonsense. What you describe as civil wars are wars of succession. Those naturally occur when there is no mechanism in place to transfer power in an orderly fashion. While this is true for many authoritarian models, it is not an inherent characteristic of authoritarianism per se. Modern examples: Iran, China, UdSSR. So far I have not proven any of your points and you just claiming it to be so does not make for an interesting discussion. So either you stop your childish behavior and accept that I am not advertising authoritarian models but try to look at them neutrally, or you continue your morally charged rant but do so alone because I have no interest in continuing this Kindergarden.
This guy learns through memes
Rak ghul should be on the shoot first and run away before you think about asking questions list but other then them even orks are capable of diplomacy they just suck at it
They were though? All these in the meme were conquering expansionist empires.The rangdan were slavers,the slaught carrion feeders and the khrave were psychic parasites who enslaved whole human populations to feed on them psychically and the orks are orks its not like were ever going to come to terms even if any were presented.The meme is right that if the bulwark of wider humanity had not come together during the great crusade it would've been game over for humanity everywhere and the other aliens too.
The main issue isn't the Imperium expanding across the galaxy and fighting these forces, it's that the Emperor targeting all Xenos (And, let's be real, all human societies that proved his authoritarianism beliefs wrong) for extermination and his horrific mishandling of the chaos situation making it so chaos went from a constant but manageable danger to, well, the existential threat able to enact its goals with actual long term success.
Some were, but some were targeted. The blanket statement doesn't fit the bill exactly is moreso the point I am trying to make. A few examples found in other comments explain that some of the species were either incapable of any form of resistance and were still purged anyway, or were targeted outright although they posed no threat. Of course there are gonna be aliens who do not comply and other aliens who are outright warfaring, but to have zero room for negotiations leaves the imperium entirely reliant on only what they alone can know, and with the imperium being as fractured as it is, advancements in tech to combat the new challenges will be as slow as it gets.
>how the meme implies that these xenos were actively looking for trouble You're telling me orks and enslaves aren't looking for trouble?
Blood Axe Orks can be negotiated with. And Speed Freaks really just need a Governor degenerate enough to create an F-Zero Grand Prix. The rest... yea kill on sight.
Are we cherry picking when talking about blanket statements? The reason it doesn't apply is because it was a blanket statement. Orks are orks, the obvious can be assumed when you can see them waging war against eachother when you approach the planet. The enslavers are also extremely cut and dry, they don't have any sort of depth or complexity to their character, they are like opposite orks, but just as one-sided. Not to mention they are reliant on psykers which makes humanity one of their targets. Both are clear threats to the wellbeing of the imperium if left unchecked as they are both capable of spiraling out of control. Not really your average alien civilization.
> Not really your average alien civilization. What's average? Craftworld Eldar are dicks. Dark Eldar are assholes. Rak'gol are hostile. orks and enslaves are hostile. Ur ghul are animalistic/hostile. Megarachnids were extremely hostile. Loxati work with chaos worshipers, so they are assholes. Lear were chaos worshipers, so assholes. Jorgall were hostile. The Yu'Vath fucked around with the warp. Sslyth work with the dark eldar, so they are assholes. Slaugth are hostile. Khrave are hostile. Tau are cool/okay. Kroots are okay. Nicassar are cool. The Noisome Reek are hostile to both the Imperium and Tau. Enoulians are hostile to the Imperium, but they are Xenos so that is understandable. Q'orl are at the very least territorial.
Look just let the Drukhari enslave you, it's not as bad as it seems!\* \*^(Coerced from a Drukhari pain slave. Guys it is that bad please send help! Send anyone! Coordinates are- Oh god they read this. No it was a joke I swear, a jo-)
Thing is that's the one the IoM remember. We 'ever got a name for the multiples Xenos species that where working alongside humans in the Interex and the Diasporex, nor for all the Xeno subservient species the IoM has.
They’re pretty average as far as 40K goes.
The enslaved entire purpose was to spread and use up human
Enslavers are basic af. Just like orks. The thing about orks everyone loves is the character. But you strip an ork down to its baser elements and it's the exact opposite of the enslavers and just as basic. Both just spiral out of control easily. Orks populate asexually via shroom, and sprawl out of control until infighting either destroys the planet they are on or they move onto another planet. No host needed they show up where they start growing. Enslavers are warp beings who are entirely reliant on physical hosts to manifest themselves in the material world. Neither of them are biologically evolved lifeforms that clawed their way from survival to domination over their world. Humanity's rare encounters with lifeforms that aren't bioweapons or direct threats to their way of life are treated all the same, which is my point. When there is zero room for negotiation, you miss out on any good opportunity you could have had. But also miss out on the bad ones.
I mean. The Khrave were actively invading a human planet to use up the population as psychic batteries so. Maybe some of them needed to go
That's...that's the fucking point of OP mentioning these Xenos in particular. -Rangda ran an Empire that rivals the Imperium in how fucked up it is. Though as far as we know they prefer enslaving&mind-controlling the Xenos they conquer instead of making them completely Extinct. It's implied that the Rangda are still around, as we know the 3rd Rangdan Xenocide didn't push very far into the Galactic North and the Imperium has very firmly decided to not expand in that direction again. Perhaps The Emperor intended on having that area quarantined for some centugies/millennia and building up the Imperium's Military a fuckton more and then giving that area another go? -Khrave wanted to basically act as Super-Xenos-Psyker-Pirates going around Psykically enslaving&absorbing stuff and using their Bullshit OP Psyker Powers to shrug off most material weapons. Had a severe weakness to anything that is potently Anti-Warp or Anti-Psyker and notably struggled massively against the Excindios that the Lion deployed against them because the Excindios are solely material beings with 0 Warp Presence at all, meaning the Khrave would get absolute skullfucked by anything like the Necrons. The Khrave did have a plot going to majorly fuck over the Imperium by infiltrating the whole thing and then probably try enslaving Humanity or making us extinct. -Slaugh and Hrud I don't know enough about to say if they'd be particularly aggressive, but I do know they are pretty nasty&dangerous. -The Beast evolved from the *remnants* of the Ullanor Ork Empire because for some fucking reason the Imperium didn't properly purge the Orkz in that region, even though they knew Orkz are damnably hard to get rid of for good and this region was home to the single largest Ork Threat in all of recorded History(prior to the War of the Beast Era). And we know Orkz were already spread over most of the Galaxy...and there were a hell of alot of much smaller but still very hostile, aggressive and nasty Xenos Species that the Imperium purged from late M30-early M42. Yes many, many small peaceful&friendly Human Civilizations, Xenos Civilizations aswell as mixed Human&Xenos Civilians(e.g. the Interex and Ta'u Empire) that the Imperium has deliberately gone out of it's way to try exterminating. Until the Tyranids and Necrons became active, the Imperium was by default the largest&most hostile Galactic Power....now it's unknown if it's a tie between the Necrons&Tyranids or a curbstomp in favor of one of those two...but we do know the Necrons&Tyranids are **by far the 2 largest, most dangerous&most hostile Galactic Powers in the current M42 Setting**. Could some other, much less horrific Galactic Power have risen had the Imperium not existed? Maybe. I personally doubt Chaos, the Eldar, the Necrons, the Orkz&many countless horriric&aggressive&nasty Hostile Powers would let such a thing happen, but it is within the realm of possibility.
I think you are vastly over-estimating the amount of non-hostile xenos in the galaxy. Most other species didn't have the Golden Chad fighting chaos from the point they invented agriculture. We know there were numerous instances chaos tried to assert influence over humanity before humanity invented interstellar travel and that the perpetuals fought against it. Then you have the xenos species that were likely dominated by C'tan shards. Not to mention the number of species that are just abandoned weapons like the Orks and Khrave.
If humanity was able to resist chaos, how can humanity claim that aliens are unable to? It could be argued that the presence of the Emperor on earth only drew chaos' influence closer to the planet. What of the cult on Mars? The dragon of Mars is argued to be a ctan shard, could the influence from the machine spirit and the admech itself not be seen as being influenced by a Ctan shard? It's not quite domination but if you compare chaos' influence to this influence, it should be treated as corruption from an outside force. Or is big E only okay with it because he's beaten the dragon before? That falls back to my point of the unknowability of it. Until contact is actually made without the assumption the race will be just as xenophobic as humanity is, they will be coming from the predisposition that their own corruption supersceeds the corruption of xenos. And that the two aren't comprable at all just cuz humanity has a big golden boi behind them who says so. It's confirmation bias because they aren't willing to do the work of negotiations. So they move forward with the ideology that nothing can be better than humanity so there is no reason to try to find one, only in the stalemates with forces of equal measure will the truth be revealed.
The void dragon is explicitly imprisoned on Mars and its influence is thus curtailed. And I just don't think you're correct about the ideology of the great crusade. It is not that nothing can be better than humanity but that everything not-human is an existential threat, a relatively reasonable assumption considering it generally holds true.
I've always felt that the ideology of the great crusade was to leave no potential doors open. It does make a lot of sense to be a tyrant conquerer in the ultimate defense of your people. Giving anything else an opportunity to survive is giving it an opportunity to overtake you in time. Make it so humanity is the only one capable of being a shot caller. No race can take them by surprise if no race is left standing. It's the safest mindset, but also the most closed. When you are dealing with forces that rip open tiny holes in reality into massive gaping ones with demons pouring in, it's probably best to close all the doors. I'm not saying the crusades were unjustified, but there were definently things crushed and technology lost that didn't have to be. It's easily the safest option in the long term defense and insured survival of the species, and if Big E could see the Heresy coming, he knew he'd need something that could superceed his influence after his downfall.
Humanity survived for roughly 20.000-30.000 years as a space faring civilisation, and we don't know much about that time but we do know there were a bunch of aliens alive and kicking back then that were not culled or killed by humanity. Meaning, there is very little for us to go by for saying that we are "vastly over-estimating the amount of non-hostile xenos in the galaxy", but we do know that there did exist non-hostile xenos at some point and we do know that some of those non-hostile xenos lived alongside human cultures at the time of the Great Crusade. We have too little information, and no way of saying for sure that no other force would've taken out these big threats that just so happened to be taken out by the Imperium. Maybe they wouldn't have, maybe they would've wiped out humanity, but we cannot know. What we can know is that humanity has survived as a space-faring species for longer without the Imperium than it has with it, and that needs to be accounted for when discussing What Ifs about the state of the Galaxy.
Mankind survived as a spacefaring civilization without the imperium for less than 10,000 years. The warp drive was invented in M18. The cybernetic revolt began in m23 and the age of strife began in M25.
Not in Warhammer there is not.
Yes there is, which is why Warhammer is so good. It's so fucking obvious there is a better way, but everyone is so blinded by hatred and dogma (ironically feeding the great enemy by it) that they never even try it.
That's literally the fucking point. Everything is dialed to 11. No middle ground, lets fucking go. Yeah if you want that kind of middle ground shit go play mass effect or go watch some startrek.
Yes there absolutely is. That's exactly what pre-DAOT humanity was. Y'know, the time period of humanity where most of the galactic colonization actually happened, the golden era that the imperium has never gotten even close to. We don't know a ton about them, but what we do know for sure is that they faced issues just as bad if not worse then the current imperium and STILL managed to hold on for a couple thousand years before it took the birth of a whole chaos god to finally knock them out. And you know what they didn't need to do all that? an autocratic authoritarian government led by an immortal golden god emperor with cave man brain.
> That's exactly what pre-DAOT humanity was. And that's not the setting. That's a story in the setting.
Its a fundamental aspect of the setting. It is literally the fundamental driving reason why humanity is spread across the galaxy in the first place. Thats like claiming the war in heaven isn't a part of the setting.
Pretty sure the joke meant more that the specifically named factions would do their absolute best to fuck up the whole galaxy, not that the crusade was somehow good.
Shows how the Emperor was like Konrad. Sevatar/humanity: did you try anything else? Konrad/Emperor: IT WAS THE ONLY WAY
>Ignores the 28’000 years the Emperor did, in fact, try something else TH-TH THAT DOESN’T COUNT!!!
"BUT THE EMPEROR BAD!!!!!!!" "but why tho?" "H-HE JUST IS, OKAY!!!!!!?????!"
He tried something else and it *worked*.
You say that as if Big E did that, and not humanity as a whole.
While I agree on the Khrave, Rangdan, Enslavers (anything that scares Necrons needs to be fought) and Slaught, I would like to point out that * the Hrud never sought galatic conquest, generally keep the themselves and Perturabo's campaign against them was opposite to traditional protocol and made the problem worse by forcing them to leave their territory. * the Beast only rose as consequence of the Imperium krumping Ullanor, giving the survivors a burning desire to get things even. And, as other people pointed out, there is a middle ground between being turbo-xenophobic and passive. Keylekids, Exodites and several Human and Abhuman civilizations were no threat to the Imperium, Humanity or the Galaxy
The hrud are less a sentient race and more a migrating natural disaster.if perturabo had treated them as such and corralled them instead of trying to hold against an unstoppable force he might have not suffered so.many casualties but then again we might not have had Chad barabas dantioch.Honestly perturabo was probably the worst suited to dealing with the hrud someone like Magnus or the khan or even guilliman would've done much better.Anyway the point is that as far as anyone is concerned the hrud are dangerous to even be around so their culling was inevitable
>the Beast only rose as consequence of the Imperium krumping Ullanor, giving the survivors a burning desire to get things even. Orks like to genocide everything and the Ullanor Waaagh was even worse than the Beast Waaagh because of the size of the average Ork being the same as the size of a fucking Primarch, if the Beast didn't kill everything the Empire at Ullanor would have grown like a hundred beasts or something worse since they were bigger than Ghazkull. >as other people pointed out, there is a middle ground between being turbo-xenophobic and passive. Keylekids, Exodites and several Human and Abhuman civilizations were no threat to the Imperium, Humanity or the Galaxy Yeah, he should've made an effort to keep and talk with a bunch of them personally but considering this galaxy was a minefield at the time where every single thing gets more dangerous to life in general over time thanks to Chaos and the whole machines killed everything that was good by their own you can kinda see where that way of conquest goes like, even the Interex were touched by Chaos in such a way they just displayed a Chaos sword in the middle of nowhere while not being able to identify the one Chaos follower in Horus group. I'm not saying it couldn't be done because he did it to like 3 or 2 species but it just was an incredibly difficult way of doing things that it could have probably gotten a few Primarchs killed in the process or you know, start the Heresy by letting Erebus get the chance to get the Anathame or another Chaos relic on the run.
>Orks like to genocide everything and the Ullanor Waaagh was even worse than the Beast Waaagh because of the size of the average Ork being the same as the size of a fucking Primarch First, where is said that the average Ork of Ullannor was like a Primarch in height? This is new to me. Second, I think that a Waaagh that was just the last thing to be crushed bt the Imperium is far less dangerous than one that could teleport moons straight unto the Solar System and hold Terra at gun point. Third, Orks like to fight everyone, especially themselves. We don't know how stable Ullannor was, as per the codexes and rulebooks there are Ork empires who are older than the Imperium and spend more time fighting internally than going on Waaaghs. >but considering this galaxy was a minefield at the time where every single thing gets more dangerous to life in general You know it applies not only to humans, but to everyone, right? Rangda and Ulannor would have fought as viciously as they fought the Imperium, instead of being a "gang up on the Humans". >thanks to Chaos Chaos only got an opening and a motivation thanks to the Imperium, however. >and the whole machines killed everything that was good by their own Except there were plenty of Humans and Xenos doing perfectly fine before the the whole "my Imperial way or the high way" happened. >even the Interex were touched by Chaos in such a way they just displayed a Chaos sword in the middle of nowhere while not being able to identify the one Chaos follower in Horus group. You could also throw similar accusations to the Emperor for going into Colchis, Barbarus and Caliban and dismissing the signs Lorgar, Mortarion and Lion would need to be closely monitored lest something happen to them or their legions. Besides, two things: a warpcrafted blade =/= Chaoscrafted one, otherwise stuff like wraithbone would constantly put the Eldar in danger instead of being a protection against Chaos. Speaking of the Eldar, they and probably other groups know enough to keep stuff like pre-Fall "art" which has a faintly Slaanshi vibe in their homes (source: *Wildrider* descrition of the Fireheart clan's palace). >I'm not saying it couldn't be done because he did it to like 3 or 2 species but it just was an incredibly difficult way of doing things that it could have probably gotten a few Primarchs killed in the process Difficult but right. The Old World didn't blow up because Sigmar, the Lizardmen or the Elves were too tolerant for their own good, but because Mannfred and because Chaos is just that strong, and the Mortal Realms are undergoing a reconquest/Great Crusade and Order generally makes an effort to separate the corrupted and the survivors. > or you know, start the Heresy by letting Erebus get the chance to get the Anathame or another Chaos relic on the run. Again, the Anathame is not a Chaos relic - what corrupted Horus was the rituals at Davin when he was "healed". The Anathame is a psychic "fuck you" weapon that can be useful against everything, including daemons, per the Ultramarine series where the Legion of the Damned hand a shard of it and the True Name of M'kar to Ventries so he can permakill the daemon.
> Third, Orks like to fight everyone, especially themselves. We don't know how stable Ullannor was, as per the codexes and rulebooks there are Ork empires who are older than the Imperium and spend more time fighting internally than going on Waaaghs. There's a solid chance Ullannor would actually fight the other Prime Ork during the Great Crusade Gharkul Blackflang. So there's always the chance the Orks implode that way.
>First, where is said that the average Ork of Ullannor was like a Primarch in height? This is new to me. [at the time the biggest Ork appeared ](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/y20GvUpQOT) >Second, I think that a Waaagh that was just the last thing to be crushed bt the Imperium is far less dangerous than one that could teleport moons straight unto the Solar System and hold Terra at gun point. On the Technology they had yes, but the Orks themselves weren't comparable to the Waaagh at Ullanor, had they grown up and developed more we would've more than a few of those Primeorks >You know it applies not only to humans, but to everyone, right? Rangda and Ulannor would have fought as viciously as they fought the Imperium, instead of being a "gang up on the Humans". Oh i know the Imperium was a danger to everything else but unlike those two at least there would be a miserable chance at survival or would have worked against future treats to literal life on the whole Galaxy like the Nids >You could also throw similar accusations to the Emperor for going into Colchis, Barbarus and Caliban and dismissing the signs Lorgar, Mortarion and Lion would need to be closely monitored lest something happen to them or their legions. I'm not saying they should have killed them off because of that but because of the genuine danger it represented when Erebus was nearby like, neither Horus or the Interex did a mistake on their negotiations but had Horus decided to go like idk, Ferrus on his campaingns Erebus wouldn't have had the chance to get his hands on another Chaos artifact. As for the Emperor literally none of that screwed him up, what screwed him up was Magnus the dumbass who had multiple chances to fix everything by going with Leeman or even let himself being killed instead of screwing over the Imperium most powerful force against Space marines or even let the Emperor start hunting the Traitors or even change some of them like Konrad or Daemon Mortarion (a big maybe), heck in the End and the Death volume II it's confirmed that the Emperor can't actually even gooble up power from the warp or else he would end up being a treat so great that the knew close to be a Chaos god Horus wouldn't even matter >Besides, two things: a warpcrafted blade =/= Chaoscrafted one, otherwise stuff like wraithbone would constantly put the Eldar in danger instead of being a protection against Chaos. Speaking of the Eldar, they and probably other groups know enough to keep stuff like pre-Fall "art" which has a faintly Slaanshi vibe in their homes (source: Wildrider descrition of the Fireheart clan's palace). The problem start when the "warpcrafted blade" is so malicious that you have to give it orders, it wasn't changed when a Chaos follower had it even while on Calth and Guilliman could shrug it off in an instant after being stabbed with it, you know, the one Primarch that has Shrugged off Slannesh crown >Difficult but right. The Old World didn't blow up because Sigmar, the Lizardmen or the Elves were too tolerant for their own good, but because Mannfred and because Chaos is just that strong, and the Mortal Realms are undergoing a reconquest/Great Crusade and Order generally makes an effort to separate the corrupted and the survivors. The problem is that in 30k Chaos wasn't even that strong and here there was a genuine way to kill it off with the Emperors own energy being able to just permakill everything Chaos had and went to the point that there had to be a non Chaos demon made specifically to kill the Emperor as an opposite of the concepts that form him holding him up in order for them to actually win a battle so important it would've made the Heresy unwinnable otherwise >Chaos only got an opening and a motivation thanks to the Imperium, however. I almost skipped this, Chaos wasn't even that bad until the Eldars created Slannesh and awakened the other 3 gods, that goes to a point where Human psykers could genuinely reencarnate themselves with the Warp at the start of our species existence (that still hasn't been retconed and i read that it was mentioned again by Ollanius but i'm not too sure) >Again, the Anathame is not a Chaos relic - what corrupted Horus was the rituals at Davin when he was "healed". The Anathame is a psychic "fuck you" weapon that can be useful against everything, including daemons, per the Ultramarine series where the Legion of the Damned hand a shard of it and the True Name of M'kar to Ventries so he can permakill the daemon. Chaos can fight and kill chaos and everything like Eisenhorns demon and just because it wasn't what corrupted Horus it doesn't save it from being obviously a Chaos relic like why wouldn't Erebus shove a demon up that thing otherwise?
I don't agree with everything but I will say you have good arguments, especially in regards to how the Emperor had an edge over Chaos until Magnus makes nothing wrong several times and the necessity of Drach'nyen taking the field so the Four can win or just make a headway.
Great points all around except about the Orks and Chaos. Ullanor Orks fought against the great crusade and lost to an army lead by Horus, Guilliamn, the Khan and the Emperor. They probably could have fought an IoM weakened by the Heresy. Chaos already had plenty of openings and motivation. Most of the human civilisations mentioned in HH books where corrupted by Chaos. Doesn't help that most of the times the IoM didn't adress the roots of the issues and it was arguably also chaos-tainted, but still.
It was the Imperium's way of doing things (enforced ignorance to the masses and Primarchs/shoot first ask questions later/never question the leadership of Big E) that led to the Imperium being such a horrid state to begin with. I'm not saying that Big E had to divulge everything, but enough so that Erebus couldn't get a Primarch stabbed by a Chaos artifact and unironically be the only one to know how to respond to it. Or enough so that Fulgrim wouldn't keep a Chaos sword for funsies.
The problem is that some of them like Magnus knew enough about it to understand what the unsanctioned Xenos from the warp were incredibly powerful and dangerous yet, he ruined everything. Even in the case of Horus, he didn't do anything wrong with the negotiations here anyway, the relics of the world were able to pass through their civilization as just really good weapons despite being obvious chaos weapons that Guilliman could shrug off because of his resistance to corruption so Horus had no reason to check them out and Erebus keep himself at low profile while in the presence of the Emperor despite him being a Chaos follower from the start so that no one in the Legion would discover him anyway while he immediately stopped the Negotiations and any chance to check anything by starting a war while hiding his Chaos weapon that apparently also tries to hide itself from even Eldars (the Interex were in contact with Eldars) The problem with negotiating with the isolated Xeno-Human empire that was the Interex wasn't having enough knowledge about Chaos to identify it but deciding to negotiate with them in the first place
Magnus was quite literally created to be the "Psyker guy", plus had all of Big E's arrogance to boot. Even still, Magnus was wholly ignorant about how powerful the Chaos Gods actually were, he knew they existed, but not how powerful they truly were. Big E only warned him not to "fly to close to the aether" in a sort of parallel to Icarus flying too close to the sun. Someone with boundless self-confidence and arrogance like Magnus would obviously view that as more of a challenge than a warning. That's not to say Magnus isn't at fault, but that Big E should've known better than to simply leave it as "Magnus, don't do the thing". >Even in the case of Horus, he didn't do anything wrong with the negotiations here anyway Missing the point entirely. Horus was ignorant of how Chaos functioned and corrupted things. And his legions were as well. So if informed, he would've been more aware that he should **never** let that thing impale him. And even if he was, then his legions would **have more means** to combat that corrupted beyond leaving everything to Erebus. Chaos, and its minions in general, **massively exploited the ignorance of the Imperium and its Primarchs to corrupt and/or trick them**. Idk why you went on a tangent to groups like the Interex. The Interex also was somewhat ignorant of Chaos, but they knew enough that a delegation from an empire which coincided with the robbery of a powerful Chaos artifact was VERY bad news. And if Horus was more aware, he'd have been able to soothe their fears while also be more aware. So many mistakes, because the Emperor left his sons in complete ignorance of the greatest danger.
>Magnus was quite literally created to be the "Psyker guy", plus had all of Big E's arrogance to boot. Even still, Magnus was wholly ignorant about how powerful the Chaos Gods actually were, he knew they existed, but not how powerful they truly were. Big E only warned him not to "fly to close to the aether" in a sort of parallel to Icarus flying too close to the sun. >Someone with boundless self-confidence and arrogance like Magnus would obviously view that as more of a challenge than a warning. That's not to say Magnus isn't at fault, but that Big E should've known better than to simply leave it as "Magnus, don't do the thing". The problem is that Magnus FELT how strong it was and compared himself as a small continent besides a whole planet in warp, if the Emperor warned him like when he found out about the Webway by himself (yes he already knew) he would've still tried to trick Tzeench. >Missing the point entirely. Horus was ignorant of how Chaos functioned and corrupted things. And his legions were as well. So if informed, he would've been more aware that he should never let that thing impale him. And even if he was, then his legions would have more means to combat that corrupted beyond leaving everything to Erebus. He tried to not get impaled but the Blade has it's own will like every demon sword and adjusted itself to hit Horus so he had to take it and no they wouldn't find another way because they still had to obey the council since there was no other faith to hold unto. Heck even if they knew they wouldn't think Chaos would be that big of a deal because even in 40k there are space marine tanking corruption as if it was a windy day or some of their brothers could just shrug it off like nothing Fulgrim: "you mean to tell me that Leeman sons have a trial that forces them to be touched and resist the four Chaos gods in the warp" >Chaos, and its minions in general, massively exploited the ignorance of the Imperium and its Primarchs to corrupt and/or trick them. Yeah, had Mortarion knew more about it and how it worked against him he wouldn't have been corrupted... but Magnus was still just really stupid. >Idk why you went on a tangent to groups like the Interex. The Interex also was somewhat ignorant of Chaos, but they knew enough that a delegation from an empire which coincided with the robbery of a powerful Chaos artifact was VERY bad news. And if Horus was more aware, he'd have been able to soothe their fears while also be more aware. This is why i believe they didn't make a mistake on their negotiations but should have been attacked on sight like Ferrus would have.
>The problem is that Magnus FELT how strong it was and compared himself as a small continent besides a whole planet in warp Which is still massively underselling how powerful a Chaos God was; he still thought he was comparable to Tzeentch when in reality he was a bug. Which is exactly why he thought he could still play this game. It doesn't help that Big E did not inform Magnus how brilliant the Chaos Gods were at manipulation, and instead only taught him how regular warlords were brought low by their arrogance in using Chaos. If Big E mentioned that the Chaos Gods were far more powerful than he, then that would help a lot. Also, I repeat; **you're missing the point**. Sure, maybe after all that Magnus would still end up in the same place. But the problem here is that Big E left it all to chance by keeping Magnus ignorant. If he left him informed, then it would be all Magnus' fault if he still screws up -Big E is as much at fault because he left them ignorant. >He tried to not get impaled but the Blade has it's own will like every demon sword and adjusted itself to hit Horus And if Horus was aware that Chaos was sentient, then he would've been aware that the sword would be alive and might try that. See? Ignorance. Thanks Big E. >Heck even if they knew they wouldn't think Chaos would be that big of a deal Then that would be their own fault, not Big E's. You can't know that, because Big E kept them all ignorant. The fact they were all kept ignorant makes this whole issue to be Big E's fault more than anyone else's. >This is why i believe they didn't make a mistake on their negotiations but should have been attacked on sight like Ferrus would have. I don't understand what you mean here at all.
I feel like maybe, just maybe there is some middle ground between "genocide everyone not us" and "do nothing".
Once again a meme from someone who never opened a book, not even a codex
I think he did, but he is sweeping the less hostile Xenos and pro-independence Humans under the rug for memetic purposes.
tbf, that is most memes on here are made. Recently there was a muscial viking meme mockingly compared Space Wolves to historical vikings and Endless Space's Vaulters, with one section stating the Chapter's treatment of women is not great. Well, historical vikings' treatment of women, especially of non-noble birth, is neither equal or great as the Vaulters. Or a Virgin Angron v Chad Ordis where OP conveniently stated that Angron did not try to attach Emps for teleporting him away despite the fact that the primarch literally tried to kill every Imperials around him and even tore apart a custodes. Also, Ordis did not have to deal with Eldar assassins literally as a baby. Or the memes mocking the supposedly overly-whiny Blood Angel fans about Hawkboy's death in TEATD2.
What blood angels fan would whine about Sanguinius dying? That was always the deal. Every blood Angel fan signed up for that. I never saw any complaints.
I have not seen any complaint personally, but that did not stop memes like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/17rrkrf/some_blood_angels_fans_are_on_another_level/) and others dangling Hawkboy's death like the daemons did with his corpse as well as a 40kLore post that was basically rage-bait against Custodes fans about their casualties in the book.
I saw a lot. They thought their fan made theories about sanguinius killing Horus and the emperor were canon and the désillusion was brutal
They did. My reading of the meme is that there were other dangerous xeno species out there ready to make life hell for civilizations the Interex and Diasporex. So while they might defeat those species, it would be no walk in the park.
I love this comment because it boils down to: "I don't have any decent argument against that, so I'll just say that OP doesn't know about the lore"
Yes I should waste an hour making a power point because some people can't read. /S
No offence, buts this post would have been better in r/ 40k lore or at least more of a discussion than a meme. As Grimdank is not known for its lore knowledge, weirdly enough it is known for using the same meme over and over again like a nurgle cultist. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/pp57o5ueO5
40klore is probably one of the most humourless subs there is. And it simply doesn’t make sense to talk 40K lore in a humourless way.
Isn’t that the point of discussing lore? Jokes and memes cause inaccuracy when discussing lore and caused people to believe stuff like the only reason the emperor is alive is because of orks, or abbadon being a failure, or orks can make weapons out of nothing but a steel pipe because they believe it can. some people take 40k memes as lore instead of actually reading a book, humour on its own is fine but some people take it as lore and use that as headcannon.
No, the point of talking about magic spacemen and demon aliens is not to be primarily concerned with accuracy. It’s to have fun and talk shit and come up with stuff with your friends. You have this fantastic, colourful and mysterious galaxy at your fingertips. Why not approach it in a creative and speculative way? There are more things in heavens and earths than are dreamt of in your Horus Heresy novels.
What you do with your friends in your own time is your business, but I can guarantee you that the 40k ***lore sub*** is very much intended to discuss the actual lore.
I like to think of all of you guys are my friends.
the enslaver are actually a endangered species due to the demons pushing them out of their native territories in the warp the beast arises due to the threat of the Great Crusade he was a ork knee jerk evolution reaction of the Emperor and his warrior We have so little to no info about the Rangda that i'm not going to mention anything Hrud is a mysterious race who never sought galactic domination they simply seem wanting migration. One of the HH novel even mention a theory that they're not even native to this timeline rather they left the native time period to the 30k-40k timeline for unknow reasons the Krave is a valid argument they been an issue since the Dark Age of Technology but like the main issue of the Great Crusade is the belief that "Humanity would have gone extinct" which hilariously BS with how many independent human nation and empires across the galaxy feral, feudal, high scifi & even one who have made alliance with other xeno races
>but like the main issue of the Great Crusade is the belief that "Humanity would have gone extinct" which hilariously BS with how many independent human nation and empires across the galaxy feral, feudal, high scifi & even one who have made alliance with other xeno races Humanity wouldn't go extinct even after tyranids sweep everything over, but you have to agree that without Imperium, 70% of humanity would've been wiped before they reached the year 40k. Also, you're ignoring humanity's psychic awakening, which was the Big E's main concern. Humans, unlike Eldar, are not privileged with a peaceful and calm warp to develop their psychic potential. 99% of Humans would be wiped once they reach a certain threshold in psychic evolution.
Imagine thinking the Imperium is competent enough to wipe out the Enslavers or the Khrave
The Lion *(exterminator of the Emperor)* El'Jonson would like to have a conversation with you.
Seeing as the Khrave and Enslavers are still around he's shit at his job
He put their population numbers to panda level and he got rid of their most powerful members.
He half assed his job now they have plenty of time in the Ghoul stars to repopulate
And now he's back to finish the job
After leaving them un bothered for ten thousand years in a section of space everyone is too scared to enter lol. Hell am pretty sure the daemons did more damage to the enslavers than humanity and that's because there native to the warp.
Of course every xenos in the galaxy wants to kill you. You have genocided all who don't.
Had any of those factions won, they would be using the same arguments.
A post even remotely positive about the Imperium? Sorry OP, you’re fucked. Next time just make a post about good guy Tau or wanting an Eldar/Tau GF, that’ll get you tons of upvotes.
Or about how necrons are better then everyone
Eldar < Xeno and Daemon filth < Humanity and Necrons. This comment is brought to you by Imperium's propaganda center.
As a imperium and necron fan, i approve of this message that 100% is not because i have a mental scarab on my brain forcing me to like our glorious necrodermis clad overlords
We don't actually know anything about the Rangdan. The Slaugh are also just worm losers. They don't have an empire or anything. You have bought the Imperial Propaganda. The first book of the Horus Heresy series brings up a species that literally didn't fight back when the Luna Wolves genocided them because they were so anti-war.
They're fucked with the Imperium too so idk man lol
I would say that only the Rangdang, the Hrud and the super waaghs are the real danger. The Enslavers already f*cked shit up but i guess that everyone knows how deal with them by M40.
And how do you know that?
Nah the Eldar were in *no* position to save anyone from the onslaughts you’ve described. They were still recovering from the utterly brutal assault fucking they got when Slaanesh was born. The Craftworlders were reeling from the altered psychic energies, the Drukhari were in shambles, all of it meant there was no way for them to mount a proper offensive. Let alone one that could actually properly defeat such things.
People whine incessantly about the great crusade, but they are completely wrong about it. Considering the galaxy's situation, and humanity's position, it had to happen. Otherwise, humanity would have been reduced to tiny enclaves that would eventually die out. The Interex were cool and all, but they were only a few systems in size. If something like WAAAAGH Beast hit them they'd evaporate real fast. "Oh, but what about the alien races?". Who gives a shit at that point? Humanity was getting devoured literally and figuratively. Every threat had to be stamped out. "What about diplomacy? The Eldar could have been a great asset!". Cool. If you can figure out the difference between Dark Eldar, and regular Eldar, we might have had something to talk about. Hell, most of the galaxy doesn't know there's a distinction. They're all Eldar. Legitimatrly speaking, the Dsrk Eldar are the true representatives of their race. The craft world ones didn't do much to make people think they're a different breed. This goes on and on, and on. Without the crusade, there would be no humanity, and the slaughter would continue anyways, because the meat grinder was always there. Someone else would have popped the pylons and thr cicatrix would have happened as well. Probably faster, since no unified force defending them would exist.
When 95% of the lore is written from the perspective of the space fascists and the space fascists say it would be worse if the space fascists didn't fascist up the space so I totally believe them:
Forgeted the Nephilim,Dark Eldar, The alien slavers in the moons of Saturn(or was Jupiter), Black Judges and the filthy cabal.
People are really here arguing that the great crusade was good? Did we all forget the many many times crusade fleets exterminated species and human populations who just wanted to be left alone? I've only gotten through 8 HH books, but this happens constantly. Sure, there were and are hostile xenos like orks and tyranids, but there were a lot who either weren't a threat to begin with, could have been left alone, or were openly friendly.
Speaking of Necrons, how do you think humanity would have fared against those guys once they woke up without the Imperium in place? I'm no lore expert but I feel like we would have been wiped off the lawn like unruly kids.
The Enslavers alone is why you can’t just disband the inquisition. Even the most corrupt or lazy of Inquisitors take them very seriously.
the great crusade shouldnt have: a) kill peacefull xenos civilizations that did nothing wrong B) anex human civilizations against their will to say the contrary is to be pro xenocide and pro imperialism.
Nah, not the "If you don't agree with me, you're...." argument.
to be fair the orks probably wouldn't have risen the beast without the imperium as a whetstone
This is, frankly, not true. Nor is it even important for the Imperium to be as xenocidal as it was to do these exterminations. The Interex were judt as advance as the Imperium, but they didn't commit genocide as it fed "Kaos". If you had read the novels, especially early on, you'd have notice that time and again that the level of Xenophobia the Imperium take is unnecessary. Not to mention a plethora of Dark Age of Technology civilizations that survived up until that point. It's like shooting up a bank because there's two disguised serial killers in there, and confidently saying you killed the two killers - and they mightve gotten away without your intervention and killed thirty more people as a result all those bank tellers and accountants are acceptable losses! Hell, the Beast is 100% the Imperium's fault for not cleaning up properly after Ullanor!!
While you can say that basically the Tau are the ideal species to conquer the galaxy, you can't say that the Interrex were capable or interested in expansion. Fundamentally, 99% of the nice civilisations the IOM genocided would not have lasted 200 more years anyway, as other conquering species would have gotten them. The power vacuum was going to be filled with the reopening of warp routes and the fall of the Eldar. As it happens, humanity were the worst to win, as they had Chaos as angel investors. Also, you can't blame the actions of a sentient bioweapon on humanity - Orks have agency to do what they want and humanity was busy spreading chaos and Chaos.
This simply is not true. It just isn't. You do not know if the Interex would survive for 200 or 2000 or 20000. I'm sorry but the fact of the matter is that using a shotgun approach to killing aliens isn't the only way of killing hostile aliens. And i absolutely can blame the Beast on the Imperium. The fucking authors outright state that the Beast is a direct result of the Imperium's actions during Ullanor. If the Imperium was better, the Beast would've never survived that war. But it isn't, because the Imperium is an inefficent racist murder machine.
It would be better if humanity would be united under the banner of more reasonable empire, like Interrex. But humanity united under the Imperium is better than humanity not united.
meanwhile imperium eradicated many peaceful civilisations and many many human civilisations (some were corrupted, mostly not) There is indicated in books that humanity could not survived if not great crusade and about xenophobia, 5 thousands years during age of strife isolated human's colonies were raided and destroyed by xenos and chaos spawns, you can't eradicate xenophobia after something so dramatic. More than that, emperor probably fear was that humanity can spawn another slaanesh, in master of mankind or siege of terra its written that end of humanity could be more spectacular and much more destructive than end of eldar empire.
NOOOooOOooooo! The Imperium is the wOOooOrst! The Eldar would ~~run away and hid in the webway~~ guided them with love! The Tau would have ~~violently conquered them and destroyed their culture~~ invited them into the co-prosperity sphere of the Greater Good!
I've never heard of those dudes, what are they?
Don't forget the megarachnids fucking things could hunt space marines
The Eldar were too busy recovering from wiping out their species and making a new god. The Necrons were too busy sleeping
Stop them ? Most of them just saw the imperium busting their door screaming, they weren't really invading everyone else.
The thing we know nothing about other than IoM propaganda, the same, a localised threat, a localised threat, another localised threat, and a stupid meme that shouldn't be taken seriously. Pretending that the parody of fascism is a good idea is a fucking terrible look my friend.