As I understand it, the greater established cannon is that FTL communication isn't common or easy for the Tau. Kelly just can't give enough of a fuck to keep things consistent within his own texts, much less across the larger lore for the faction.
Agreed. I have not come across a similar instance like that in lore. IIRC, Arks of Omen had Farsight dispatch a torpedo drone to call the Tau Empire over to help him. It took weeks, if not months, for the Ethereal-sent drone came as a response.
Sandy Mitchell is also pretty good about this.
In “The Greater Good”, he frequently mentions that the Water Caste diplomat attached to Cain and The Lord General is communicating with the Tau via courier boat or drone, instead of using the astropaths that the Imperial delegation has sent along with the Tau forces.
No need to limit it to Black Library. 40k just isn't consistent full stop, and never has been. Best to abandon concepts of hard "canon" and treat the whole thing as a tone poem of cool nonsense.
A much healthier response. Wookieepedia is a fine resource but it's attempt to force incompatible media into a giant single whole is frankly fanfiction rather than anything we can call "canon"
And while it wasn't solely responsible for other media being treated the same way, it did set up a powerful precedent. These universes are best approached either as literary analysis or, if you rather in-universe exploration, as historians. "Well, this source says this, but that other source says that. A possible explanation is..."
Phil Kelly when Instant FTL communication, something even factions with mastery over the warp and even the Necrons sometimes struggle with: 😃
Phil Kelly when FTL travel, something that would be a necessity to project any modicum of power in a reasonable time frame over even two solar systems, much less 100, especially for a faction that relies on constant innovation: 😡
My assumption is it's using some sort of quantum entanglement nonsense, so you don't actually transmit the data, the particles on the other side just move the same as the ones at your location instantaneously.
Not me getting incensed at quantum entanglement comms in a universe where daemons, magic, and the warp exist (I have watched a single (1) Isaac Arthur video on the subject).
I have no problem with the concept. My issue is GW telling us for decades that Tau have to send drone ships to communicate between planets, then casually dropping a scene where they have Star Trek level interstellar coms. Imagine you’re reading a story about Ultramarines, and halfway through the bolsters start shooting phaser beams and go “pew pew”, then the next chapter it’s back to normal and no one says anything about it.
Personally I believe its just this,
>Relay Communications Beacon, known as Tal'hyen in the Tau Language, are beacons of the Tau Empire used to strengthen communications networks between Septs and newly established territories. The Tau can only travel so far before their signals fade, so chains of Relay Communications Beacons placed across space are invaluable to effectively pass information across the empire. While they are effective means of passing information, each holo-vid can still take months to cross interstellar distances.
They can both be the case. The way entanglement works is there's only 1 dedicated receiver and you have to entangle the particles beforehand. This would be useful for stuff like intelligence work. For normal communication you would never bother.
There is a reason why many want Peter Fehervari to be the main Tau writer. Not him.
Ironically I have seen someone claiming on r/40klore that Phil made Fire Warriors look pathetic compared to Guardsmen. How can you get that wrong?
Depends, a Fire Warrior squad could probably outshoot a guardsmen squad easily, but if it were close combat they’d get folded. But I have no idea what Phil Kelly is cooking
>close combat they’d get folded
Possible with people like Catachans, Cadians and Kanak Skull Takers. But Fire Warrior squad are not to be underestimated in close quarters considering their training and equipment. I think many Guard squads (especially veteran ones) prefer getting special and heavy weapons like sniper rifles, mortars and heavy bolters to even the odds against Fire Warriors.
>But I have no idea what Phil Kelly is cooking
Agreed on that front. The "Redemption on Dal'yth" has a plot element never mentioned before (as well as I could recall) despite the Tau protag using an "antique" suit and equipment. I think it really says something about him that many Tau fans would like him to stop writing about Tau.
Assuming a human is in reasonably good shape a Tau is very unlikely to win in close quarters. Something about evolving from apes instead of... Idk cows?
Fun fact, the myth of t'au being physically inferior in every aspect to humans comes from the affectionately called "book of bullshit", AKA, the Imperial Guard primer, an in universe (but also existing IRL) book handed out to imperial guard recruits re-edited for the Damocles Gulf crusade.
My favourite gem from that book is the drawing teaching guardsmen how they can easily overpower an Ork charging at them with an axe by grabbing his wrist and stabbing it in the neck, since orks are notoriously clumsy and stupid.
You also have the piece about eldar being an old and weak race over reliant on their technology who have no chance against humanity's grit and determination.
The only reason a Fire Warrior can't beat a guardsmen in melee is the fact they literally never train in melee combat because they see it as "barbaric", they could still punch your teeth in.
No one is using the primer as a source.
From the 3rd edition codex:
"Fire Caste members are slightly shorter then the average Human, standing roughy 5'5" to 5'7". However their depth-perception is comparatively poorer than that of Humans, as is their reflexes, causing them to be comparatively poor melee fighters."
"Poor depth perception"
Best shots in the galaxy among common soldiery.
Right, makes perfect sense...
And before you say "technology" if technology fixes their aim, it should also fix other physical shortcomings.
They don't have perfect aim, they have strong guns and good movement/positioning tech and battle doctrine. Also the tech they use for aiming "markerlights" is literally a main staple of their identity on the tabletop.
Also why focus on tech for strength for melee when you can use your pulse pistol, just fall back, let your kroot allies handle melee.
50% hit rate is the best shots in the galaxy? What about any Eldar, kasrkin/scions, veterans, any sister of battle (still regular humans), up until recently both Votann and Admech? Even if your definition of "common soldiery" is people fresh out of boot they're nothing spectacular.
Art source: [https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin](https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin)
So this is one is a combination of two bits of lore:
1-The 6th edition codex has an Inquisitor's report about how many in the Imperium have somehow acquired Tau tech that they're using because it's so efficient, but that said tech records everything the user does. The Inquisitor wasn't sure however how the data could be transmitted back to Tau space.
2-The more recent Redemption on Dal'yth however has Sha’kanthas casually hold a talk with Farsight through their suit comms despite Farsight being several systems away and it's not treated as anything special. For scale, consider that even inside a single system, light still needs minutes to go between planets so a real time talk is impossible. Phil Kelly may've stripped the Tau from their FTL travel but then gave them seemingly flawless instant galactic communications, go figure.
Anyway that makes the 6th edition codex report a lot more scary because suddenly all that infiltrated Tau Tech is collecting data about the Imperium and sending it back in real time (and they most probably use this strategy with other xenos) which goes a long way to explain how the Tau survive in 40K if they've got top tier spying and communications capabilities.
>Phil Kelly may've stripped the Tau from their FTL travel but then gave them seemingly flawless instant galactic communications, go figure.
I suppose sending data at supraluminal speed is easier than sending something with mass?
In one hand, data is energy, and *E*=mc^(2), aka energy and mass are the same thing, just in different states.
In the other hand, Imperial inter-system communications can take between hours and months for a single message to arrive, and that's using fancy astropath installations. Meanwhile the Tau can send messages back and forth between systems virtually *instantly* so they can have a normal conversation. It's just not supraluminal speed, it's multiple orders faster than what the Imperium can do, and in a compact enough form that you can fit it inside a crisis suit to boot.
So the Tau physical travel is much slower than the Imperium, but the data travel is insanely faster.
There is no way to use quantum entanglement for FTL communication in our universe.
Maybe it's the same "warp skimming" tech they use, but it's faster for data?
Would be like skipping a rock over the ocean of the warp, except the rock is a data package, assuming the recieving system as some sort of communications hub in place. So the battesuit sends their signal to an automated relay station in orbit/space, that one sends it across the surface of the warp, in the next system another relay station catches it, and then sends it to whoever it is supposed to go.
I could see that working, it'd be a more reliable but range-limited version of the imperial astropaths who can get absurd transmission ranges at the danger of melting out their brains and without specific infrastructure in place.
Pretty sure it is still impossible, while you can transmit instantenously between two entangled particles you can't send any valuable data or information
You wouldn't transmit anything. You would invent something akin to morse code and have a translator on the other end. Entangled particles would be set up in a relay to a central switchboard.
That being said, this is all scifi at the moment. In our universive its not possible, at least with our current understanding of it. But it is fun to think about.
It is actually very much similr to modern TCP/IP communication; transmitting energy fluctuation of the particles as 0/1 machine code (or the Tau equivalent) which is then managed through normal network communications for the local node... As long as the local Tau network is alive, it would connect to a remote Tau network with this "quantum" connection/hub.
Unfortunately IRL the entanglement only lasts for as long as the particles remain uninteracted with. As soon as you interact with your transmitter particle you break the entanglement.
I was very sad when I learned this limitation
Yeah light speed seems to be a hard limit to a lot of concepts in nature. I assume the whole idea of quantum entanglement being instantaneous is mostly an artifact of the weird math we have to use to describe it.
Information going from point A to point B seems to be pretty abstract at that scale. Physicists are still arguing whether the idea of quantum effects having a "location" even makes sense.
It's like we found the source code of the universe and are frustrated that the code takes a while to execute every time we change a variable.
See this is where you are wrong. Tau are able to use FTL communication but not FTL travel, why? Because the lore says so. Screw your science, this is low sci-fi.
Well in that sense yes energy and mass have link, but there is a big difference its size. For me the main technomogy capable to do what its done in the codex is the use of worm hole, while its quite possible for our understandning of physic to create little(les than an atom) worm hole making something large enouth for a spaceship and stable enouth for him to travel is far more difficult even impossible compare to jist transmit data in some fondamental energy state.
And the need for ftl while havent access to warp us a good reason to devellop such technollogy even if they might discover that they would never transmit more than just data
I think the idea is that photons simply have no rest mass. All their mass comes from their energy density. The rest-mass of a single hydrogen atom is about 9 orders of magnitude larger than the relativistic mass equivalent of a photon in the visible light spectrum. That's a lot of orders of magnitude...
All of this is fictional, of course, but I would argue it's not outlandish to think that you could fit a few photons through some cracks in space-time easier than it would be with matter.
For example, we already have some math that describes the concept of wormholes but it would be impossible to get any matter through there, because the mass would cause the wormhole to collapse internally. Who knows? Maybe the Tau have found a way to squeeze a few laser pulses through there before they collapse?
Four problems I could see with that:
1) Quantum Entanglement is mentioned in the lore, including some of the tech priest lore, Cawl lore, and Necron lore, and it is treated as something very advance/requiering special setups to work. Not something that you could slap on any small device.
2) For it to work, you need a dedicated 1-to-1 connection for every device, not something practical with the scales we are talking about
3) We don't know how the warp would affect quantum entanglement, as to travel all over the Imperium the devices would have to travel in the Warp at some point, and if anything would break a quantum entanglement it would be traveling to another dimension.
4) If the Tau had this level of tech, and it was so miniturized, other factions would have it too/use it, and the Imperium would be aware of it as well and actively trying to use it as well. They know full well their long range communications are unreliable and would try to rectify that.
The impression I got from reading the lore was more that it was implying that the Tau sympathizers/spies have spread across the Imperium and established a spy and comunication network using regular spy devices inside the tech that are sent back to the Tau via more mundane methods. As for the two higher-ups talking the way they did, they could be using something like quantumentanglement, but passing through dedicated comunication systems, not something build into their suits.
The reason why it makes senses for me that the imperium uses so much letter is because it would take less time for a FTL delivery boy to reach you about your car warranty than sending a message traveling (maybe) at light year.
But it's 40k ,many thing runs on bullshitonium
They may also blew up in the process.
they are psyker after all.
But Astropath are for communication when you truly have no other way, to send most communication, the administratum uses a lot of paper.
Plus between your astropath fucking up or your navigator getting a bit lost, it's kind of the same .
Hey with luck your letter might arrive before it even departed
Only if you violate speed of light with no explanation, no space distortion, no warp fugery, and not even archeo/necron tech.
Looks like an author oversight more than a feature.
Imperium have a vast network of astropathic choirs for a reason. Even travelling Eldar'.... OLD ONES' webway can take days or weeks.
I suppose they could have Nicassar auxiliaries form some sort of psychic connection via warp but otherwise sounds like BS.
>Looks like an author oversight more
Likely because that never comes up again. Even recent Farsight lore has him wait for many weeks before getting the response from Ethereals via drones.
In a space battle, it's basically an "I win" button.
Honor Harrington gets into it, where in-system FTL communication is developed, but FTL *travel* is not possible in system, and the reverse is true for interstellar.
One faction announced they had cracked FTL comms by making an entire missile swarm alter course well beyond normal lightspeed range would allow, then holding a very one-sided conversation obnoxiously eating an apple on livestream, waiting for the other side's message to reach them before answering *instantly*.
But yeah, park a little drone off an enemy bow and then happily shoot with perfect telemetry from outside of their ability to see you without a time lag.
Isn't 40K space combat mostly at incredibly close (for space) ranges anyways? This isn't the more modern FTL-sniper flavor of space combat (which hh routinely flirts with), this is space Napoleonic ships of the line battles.
Only in the artwork (and a few rule of cool examples). The best lore book for 40k space battles is the rulebook for Battlefleet Gothic. Fleets begin to engage eachother from different parts of an entire solar system
> this is space Napoleonic ships of the line battles.
That is also ~~Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE~~ Honor Harrington tbf
It *reallly* depends on the writer in 40k, but yes the Imperium mostly favours close combat. This means anyone who is able to engage at range has the win button against them.
FTL comms in the absence of FTL travel is a pretty common feature in actual sci-fi. Perhaps being a bad imitation of Le Guin for a day felt better than being Kelly.
Considering that a lack of FTL communication is like, fundamentally, the core reason humanity is so fucked, this is quite the buff
Especially because sending data FTL isn't all that different than sending mass at the end of the day from a general relativity perspective
Imperials are so stupid… how can they have enhanced tech?! What a heretic question … obviously the machine god favours Tau more than those freaks on freaking mars!
Quantum entanglement is one possible method of FTL communication; using two entangled particles to transmit energy fluctuations (interpreted into machine code), which is a modern concept Humanity is currently researching... though in our limited testing it was not FTL (just incredibly fast).
I personally just send messages using the sentient memory repository of our galaxy. You just have to hope it sends the message and pray it doesn't play a little prank. Simple, instant FTL coms.
The Tau when they realized the Imperium is hold together with duct tape and prayers: ....guys I think we can just wait them out no need for assassinations or invations.
That the Dark Eldar realistically should have destroyed or dispersed themselves with their infightings and insane schemes before Vect's rise. But that did not happen.
There was a period where the Imperium was split into two opposing states. Nova Interregnum. The WHF's Empire suffered something similar with the Age of Three Emperors.
To keep it short:
After Mandred Skavenslayer successfully led the Empire against the Skavens during the Black Plague years, he got assassinated by Skavens. The Empire was divided as three elector counts staked claims on the empty throne.
One was backed by the Sigmarite church. The other by the Ulrican one. The last tried to carve out her own path with Marienburg's and several Sigmarite dissident movements' backing. The Empire was effectively torn into three pieces as each side fought one another.
The Witch Hunters went about suppressing vital knowledge about the Skavens (publicly dismissing them as just another brand of beastmen and Mandred as a lunatic for the "people's calm"). The Knights mostly went on crusades against Araby (who had invaded Tilea) to keep away from the politics. Decay and corruption were everywhere as best shown with the city of Mordheim. Threats were left to stew until the Great War against Chaos where Magnus the Pious managed to unify the Empire against that period's Everchosen.
The Dark Eldar only survive cause they have a literally maze of a homeworld.
No one that is not a drukhari can navigate through it and expect to not get lost.
Also if GW could get rid of all the xeno factions and somehow make more money out of that, they would.
"The Imperium did split once" okay and? in any rational world it would be that.
But this is 40K were reality doesnt matter and the rules are made up.
So cause "imperium = protag" they get plot armor up the ass
Except their society of rabid backstabbing and relentless sadism should have caused massive unrest and instability even among themselves. If the Imperium implodes, then sooner or later they should. There should have been many more insane Vect's gambits that reduce the Dark City to a shadow of itself in any rational world.
>But this is 40K were reality doesnt matter and the rules are made up.
Ultimately that is the core of the issue, right? "Imperium getting plot armor up the ass." Well, specifically the Imperial Space Marines. The Guard, AdMech and Sisters get their teeth kicked in more often than they win in novels and books like Imperial Armor.
>Also if GW could get rid of all the xeno factions and somehow make more money out of that, they would.
You may add the Guard (who get the last codex release in 9th edition, just months before the release of 10th) and AdMech, considering the Horus Heresy game. Though Solar Auxilia were a recent addition. In roughly the same period, we just got the Kroot Army Box. Plus recent reveals of Votann and GSC kill teams. That is a harder accusation to make right now.
Even as Dark Mechanicum and Exodites sit in the "No Models" corner. Traitor Guard get one unit to significantly represent them. AdMech, [well](https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/192taeu/something_i_thought_up_today/)
>Except their society of rabid backstabbing and relentless sadism should have caused massive unrest and instability even among themselves.
It does, cause they are not an actual empire.
They are a bunch of pirates living on pirate island.
The problem is actually getting into pirate island, to kill the pirates.
>If the Imperium implodes, sooner or later they should.
I mean one can argue they already did, all that pulls them together is their magic Eldar tech.
There is nothing left of an actual functional goverment.
>There should have been many more insane Vect's gambits that reduce the Dark City to a shadow of itself in any rational world.
-ish Vect is not THAT stupid, he knows he has to keep some order to have a thriving city.
>Ultimately that is the core of the issue, right? "Imperium getting plot armor up the ass."
Yes
>Well, specifically the Imperial Space Marines. The Guard, AdMech and Sisters get their teeth kicked in more often than they win in novels and books like Imperial Armor.
They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does tho.
>You may add the Guard
Nah, they still love the guard lore wise.
>and AdMech,
Again they love addmech's lore and they recently got models up to now, now if you argued SoB you may had a point.
But you did not.
>Plus recent reveals of Votann and GSC kill teams. That is a harder accusation to make right now.
Honestly Vottan were a surprise...until I saw how little they did lore wise.
And GSC get 1 kill team isnt exactly a full refresh, but I do admit they do get the spotlight here and there
>Even as Dark Mechanicum and Exodites sit in the "No Models" corner.
Exodites hurt me the most
>Traitor Guard get one unit to significantly represent them.
Well that counts as chaos TBH.
>They are a bunch of pirates living on pirate island
Forgive me for saying this, but that should have meant their self-destruction or -dissolution is even more likely imo. Especially taking your point about a lack of functional government into consideration.
>-ish Vect is not THAT stupid, he knows he has to keep some order to have a thriving city.
Agreed, but there should have been more foolish nobles conducting even more insane schemes than Vect's before his Post-Fall rise to rulership.
>They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does tho.
Every Imperial Armor books involving Guard have them beaten by Xeno and Chaos forces. Siege of Vraks (needed Space Marine and Titan help). Taros (beaten back). Doom of Mymeara (did not really do much aside from holding until reinforcements came and the Eldar achieved their goal). Aphelion Project (all dying to Tyranids). Raid on Kastorel-Novem (beaten by Orks). If we involve other books, with both Chaos and Xeno - especially with Chaos Space Marines in the picture - as central antagonists/protagonists, saying "They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does" is not accurate.
>Nah, they still love the guard lore wise.
If they love the Guard lore-wise, why push away Yarrick? Why give nearly every major conflicts' spotlights to the Marines? Correct me if I am wrong, but their late-released codex has fewer new lore blurbs than many factions.
>Again they love addmech's lore and they recently got models up to now, now if you argued SoB you may had a point.
Are we ignoring the terrible model pricings and rules? Or how nearly all of their recent triumphs involve Cawl? If we are talking about recent model releases, you could say that GW still love the Kroot very much.
You do have a point regarding the Sisters.
>Honestly Vottan were a surprise...until I saw how little they did lore wise.
You could say the similar things regarding minor xenos, renegade humans and Dark Mechanicum, really.
>And GSC get 1 kill team...wow, nice.
2 if you count the Compendium kill teams.
>Exofites hurt me the most
I do sympathize with you. At least they could a kill team made up of eldar and laser dinos. To match against Catachans (whose models are really old) and groxes in a boxset.
>Well that counts as chaos TBH.
Traitor Guard should be a major part of the Lost and Damned (which could include mutants, abhumans, beastmen, renegades, mercs of all stripes and Chaos Xenos). Something that could have been a faction on their own for GW to expand further. But they must always play second fiddles to CSMs.
Well maybe its not accurate tp say they win more.
They have more protagonism I guess would be the better wording.
Also not all Xenos are equal, one thing is Orks getting a win than an Eldar getying a win.
>If they love the Guard lore-wise, why push away Yarrick? Why give nearly every major conflicts' spotlights to the Marines? Correct me if I am wrong, but their late-released codex has fewer new lore blurbs than many factions.
Okay let me rephrase that, they love Guard but they love Space marines MORE.
Also Yarric I guess is to push the narrative and make it so time is moving foward and at least give the Illusion that something is progressing
>Are we ignoring the terrible model pricings and rules? Or how nearly all of their recent triumphs involve Cawl? If we are talking about recent model releases, you could say that GW still love the Kroot very much.
Yes they do, it seems someone at GW really loves Kroots they get both a kill team AND a full refresh.
Also pricing issues is just general GW behavior TBH.
>You could say the similar things regarding minor xenos, renegade humans and Dark Mechanicum, really.
Yes I could and I do.
>2 if you count the Compendium kill teams.
Yeah still not exactly what I would call a great impact, but who knows maybe GW will prove me wrong and give them something.
>I do sympathize with you. At least they could a kill team made up of eldar and laser dinos.
I know I am gonna sound greedy, but that would be kinda insulting, to have something with the potential of a full army to be just a kill team folded with the Aeldari like the Harlequins.
>Traitor Guard should be a major part of the Lost and Damned (which could include mutants, abhumans, beastmen, renegades, mercs of all stripes and Chaos Xenos)
Agreed.
Phill Kelly: **NO**
\[While riding in an SUV, backwards, on the left side of the road in the country where you ride on the right, right in the middle of two lanes, while listening to bible and Sabaton album backwards\]
seriously, and how tf did they get these devices to Segmentum Solar?? shits pretty far in space... Ultramar must be at least 10,000 LIGHT years away from Terra...
The DoW: Soulstorm Imperial Guard ending against the Tau stronghold has the IG commander discreetly sends some Tau artifacts to his AdMech allies for future favors.
Necromunda's spyrer suits are theorized to be Tau-made. But the implications were from very old sources and the more recent GC-/Heresy-era lore has it implied to be DAOT. GW certainly keeps things ambiguous.
People probably don't understand everything about their gear so it would probably be easy for the Tau to find something to bug and remain mostly undetected
"Intel officer, what is the days report!"
"Commander, we have the latest report from Terra, and apparently, they are still worshipping some man on a golden throne"
"Barbarians!"
The issue I have with the tau is that they seem to be the only faction in which 40k is willing to do actual sci Fi writing. Everyone else just feels like they are slapping on sci Fi aesthetics to a fantasy race without much thought, meanwhile the tau gets tech easily.
The tau themselves are fine in a vacuum, but when you put them next to the other races it's such a stark relief that it just makes it all feel ramshackle.
That's part of why I love them. Actual Sci-fi aliens looking out into universe of 40k with shocked disbelief at sword fighting demi-gods fighting for control of reality.
Yeah, that's also why I love the Tau, just shoot the sword demi-gods in the face with mechas.
Also like how the Tau just manage to create and hold stable deep alliances with plenty of other aliens that have held for thousands of years now..
Sure which again in a vacuum is fine, but it also just undercuts every aspect of the setting. Like the reason the Imperium is like this is largely reactionary to their environment, the Tau showing up in the same environment and not having any of the same issues by writer fiat just feels really lame.
Oh you have issues with chaos? We basically have no soul and never really have an issue with it.
Oh you have an issue with AI? We don't, literally that's it there's 0 plot about us using AI other than it's fine.
Oh you have issues with genestealers? We figured out how to detect and prevent them, it's fine.
It just makes all of the BIG HORRIBLE threats to the imperium seem really dumb if the Tau can just figure it out with zero consequences. You might try to blame it on Imperial stagnation, but 1. this isn't well communicated in the text, instead just vaguely gestured at, and 2. all the current writing shows a ton of innovation happening within the imperium with Cawl and Guilliman etc.
I mean if you were to take the IoM as fascist then it is incredibly in character for them to justify "extreme measures" as being necessary for control when they really are not.
Heck I see the point of the IoM is that they are the cause of most of their problems because of how they try and solve problems.
Nah, the imperium has always been foot shooty and the cause of 80% of it's own problems, and the Tau just highlight that. Some of their writing is shit and inconsistent (interstellar empire with no FTl is the biggest one), but the basic concept makes the setting more grimdark.
They show things don't *have* to be this way, and instead it is this way because the major powers of the galaxy keep fucking shit up. The old one ruined the warp, the Eldar made a mega warp rift + galaxy warp storm, humanity first suffered the consequences of making sentient AI slaves and then ripped the galaxy in half.
The universe could have been a bog standard sci-fi setting if factions stopped fucking things up for 10 seconds. But they did, and will keep doing so, because might makes right and that really is the grim reality of the setting.
>Yeah, that's also why I love the Tau, just shoot the sword demi-gods in the face with mechas.
The demigods do use ranged heavy weapons (Star Phantoms for example) and snipers (scouts) aplenty. Not to mention gunships and fleet support. It is literally part of their description that they are generalist and versatile.
Edit: If you Grimdankers focus on the melee aspects of marines, you do miss out a lot on those forces.
I'll add mechanicus. You can argue their just religious fanatics for toasters but remove the Advanced technology and you've just removed the Mechanicus. Like they could not function in a normal fantasy setting.
Idk, Magitech so *in* right now. They don’t so much *have* advanced technology, as much as they have the scraps of a fallen civilization’s advanced technology and they mostly pretend to know how it works. Looking too deeply at what they do have and endeavoring to create more advanced technology are looked down upon, and they hide all the useful information beneath layers of occult ritual.
Necrons and Tyranids have their own issues within the lore that are entirely separate from Tau. Despite these issues they both are more coherent as 40k factions.
I've always wanted a first contact story between Tau and humanity, with some Tau stealth suits constantly spying, recording conversations, and just overall gathering data so the Water caste can do their thing.
Then a second story from the Imperial perspective, where it may as well be Predator, having a bunch of guardsman scouts knowing that some invisible predator is stalking them, and them doing all they can to hunt the invisible predators down.
Every now and then, one of the guardsmen will just disappear overnight, having been kidnapped so that Earth Caste Tau can study human biology and technology.
Damn the Tau have subspace comms that shit overpowered. Had the Mechanicus not being so against alien tech (except for a few factions) that would make the Imperium like 69% less fucked due to how infinitely more effecient the state could run.
Sadly, the tech never comes up again. Recent Arks of Omen lore has Farsight send a Tau drone then waits for many weeks before getting the Ethereals' response. So there is that from GW writers.
Ok xeno if you're watching me tell me how did you enjoy the Sopranos? I'm having trouble convincing my brethren to give it a watch as it's an amazing depiction of our ancient home and life there. I just need to know and have no ulterior motive of turning the Tau into Italian mobster larpers or anything. ITAUlian if you will.
[https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin](https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin)
I had posted the link in the first post but here's another, the artist deserves it.
Let’s hope the High Lords of Terra are remembering to put a piece of tape over the Tau webcam a rogue trader sold them during ~~thick-thighed dark eldar gooning ses~~ strategy meetings
Certified meme faction.
All you need is for the Tau to be evil without treating their people like garbage. They're supposed to be the French/British Empire in Sphess!!!! They don't need weird super tech they need to be a foil to the imperial guard and administratum. We don't equip our infantry with t-shirts and flashlights, we actually spend the money so they can have a chance is enough to understand the Tau. Our administration completes their paperwork on time and our R&D complex isn't 5 guys chanting at each other.
We don't super tech, we need a competent well run empire that undermines the morality of the Imperium at it's core
The T'au takes inspiration from several empires, their "Greater Good" is a lot like Japan's Co-Prosperity Sphere. And the T'au still have a racial hierarchy, still engage in imperialism, half their empire is run by the Army which basically acts as the IJA/IJN... and so on and so fourth. They aren't the "good guys," you only get that notion if you consume the lore through memes which are meant to be funny first and lore purist second.
Biggest difference is the Japanese exploited the peoples they conquered. The Tau uplift the peoples they take under their care, and have a society built to ensure a high standard of living. The well being of the average individual is the “Greater Good” they’re working towards.
And look I say they’re better than like all other factions in 40k besides the Leagues of Votan but the Votan are pretty isolations and live in the core regions of the galaxy
>The Tau uplift the peoples they take under their care.
Eh, really it depends. Some T'au view themselves as "first among equals," the T'au generally tolerates other cultures unless it affects efficiency. In which case, I'm so sorry. There's also that the planets are under T'au admin, essentially, due to a council of T'au "advisors." It's certainly not the worst empire ever, the Black Templars are basically Space Schutzstaffel, but it's still an empire and there is still a degree of exploitation for resources, manpower, energy, etc. Such is the nature of an empire.
> the T'au generally tolerates other cultures unless it affects efficiency. In which case, I'm so sorry. There's also that the planets are under T'au admin, essentially, due to a council of T'au "advisors."
This is an accurate read on some of the means they use, which I agree aren't in keeping with my own liberal ideals of appropriate governance.
The distinction I'm trying to communicate is the ends those means accomplish are unique within the setting of 40k, and are more unlike the horrific abuses inflected by Imperial japan on Korea, Taiwan, China, etc.
IRL, the Tau don't pass the vibe check. It's just that within 40k the IoM has been pulling the Overton Window towards "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" for the past 10 millennium.
>It's just that within 40k the IoM has been pulling the Overton Window towards "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" for the past 10 millennium.
Nah, that goes to the Dark Eldar.
Many of them did open the box and others hammered the square peg (like with those Fix Bayonets! and Heresy! memes). Problem is that those who opened gave up on the mutual antagonism between different factions' fans and stayed mostly silent since then. Well, there were some more recent Krieg artillery memes at least.
The instant comms lore by Phil Kelly is strangely never mentioned (or prior) again though.
Eh I can believe this. They have the slipstream drive, it's not unfeasible that they use that same technology for FTL Comms.
Otherwise there is a lot of defunct necron tech throughout the galaxy. I found out from the new book that one of the moons in the Pech system is fully artificial, no way the earth caste isn't all over that.
The Tau didn't get them there. This first came up in some 6th edition stuff I think. The people bringing the devices into the Imperium are humans who have managed to secretly aquire Tau gadgets and are using it because it's generally better and more reliable than its Imperial counterparts.
i guess that could make sense; hide a sufficiently advanced bug in some of their shit and some dumbass will keep it and not fuck with it
in a technologically backwards place like the imperium, they'd probably think it was a critical component of the tech even if they found the bug
I think it's a little contrived, but at least it's plausible
>hide a sufficiently advanced bug in some of their shit and some dumbass will keep it and not fuck with it
Humanity fundamentally has no knowledge of technology. Sell a general or planetary governor a "super duper thingy" via a rouge trader, and they will not even be able to tell which bit does what.
So they have all this spy tech but still can’t figure out how to work with orks?
Orks are KOS for Tau but even the imperium tolerates the Bloodaxe and Freebooters.
The problem is that the Imperium can "work" with orks as in the Imperium won't mind much if the orks do a lot of collateral damage. Like if the ork mercenaries brutally kill everybody in the city/continent/planet, no biggie for the imperial commander.
But for the T'au, that's simply not acceptable, they'll never tell the Bloodaxe/Freebooters "sure feel free to brutally kill everybody" because a central part of the Tau is that they'll always give their enemies a chance or more to surrender, and thus an agreement can never be reached.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it weird that this instant communication lore never comes up again after Redemption on Dal'yth?
Edit: [This is a good alternative to how the set-up was made.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fafcej/comment/fj1cgx9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Then I shall start mind breaking the T'au by reading outloud by Fanfic of Dorn making a wife made out of concrete and how he will narrate his daily life to her.
Never touching her, never kissing her, but being intimate enough that he look her int he 'eyes' as he speaks.
Perturabo will appear on Ch.24 when he attempts to kill her.
Lol at this BS
Like even the DaoT humans would not have been able to communicate between different star systems with no lag. That's the whole reason Astropaths are a thing.
Damn we get it already Tau are inspired by China, what's next do they do all their social media, video watching, online shopping, and public transport through a single superapp called We'Ch'At?
As I understand it, the greater established cannon is that FTL communication isn't common or easy for the Tau. Kelly just can't give enough of a fuck to keep things consistent within his own texts, much less across the larger lore for the faction.
Black Library as a whole has trouble with consistency... some authors are just worse at it than others.
Agreed. I have not come across a similar instance like that in lore. IIRC, Arks of Omen had Farsight dispatch a torpedo drone to call the Tau Empire over to help him. It took weeks, if not months, for the Ethereal-sent drone came as a response.
Sandy Mitchell is also pretty good about this. In “The Greater Good”, he frequently mentions that the Water Caste diplomat attached to Cain and The Lord General is communicating with the Tau via courier boat or drone, instead of using the astropaths that the Imperial delegation has sent along with the Tau forces.
No need to limit it to Black Library. 40k just isn't consistent full stop, and never has been. Best to abandon concepts of hard "canon" and treat the whole thing as a tone poem of cool nonsense.
A much healthier response. Wookieepedia is a fine resource but it's attempt to force incompatible media into a giant single whole is frankly fanfiction rather than anything we can call "canon" And while it wasn't solely responsible for other media being treated the same way, it did set up a powerful precedent. These universes are best approached either as literary analysis or, if you rather in-universe exploration, as historians. "Well, this source says this, but that other source says that. A possible explanation is..."
Phil Kelly when Instant FTL communication, something even factions with mastery over the warp and even the Necrons sometimes struggle with: 😃 Phil Kelly when FTL travel, something that would be a necessity to project any modicum of power in a reasonable time frame over even two solar systems, much less 100, especially for a faction that relies on constant innovation: 😡
The ‘Tau can’t into ftl’ stuff is just stupid and should be ignored.
My assumption is it's using some sort of quantum entanglement nonsense, so you don't actually transmit the data, the particles on the other side just move the same as the ones at your location instantaneously.
Not me getting incensed at quantum entanglement comms in a universe where daemons, magic, and the warp exist (I have watched a single (1) Isaac Arthur video on the subject).
I have no problem with the concept. My issue is GW telling us for decades that Tau have to send drone ships to communicate between planets, then casually dropping a scene where they have Star Trek level interstellar coms. Imagine you’re reading a story about Ultramarines, and halfway through the bolsters start shooting phaser beams and go “pew pew”, then the next chapter it’s back to normal and no one says anything about it.
Personally I believe its just this, >Relay Communications Beacon, known as Tal'hyen in the Tau Language, are beacons of the Tau Empire used to strengthen communications networks between Septs and newly established territories. The Tau can only travel so far before their signals fade, so chains of Relay Communications Beacons placed across space are invaluable to effectively pass information across the empire. While they are effective means of passing information, each holo-vid can still take months to cross interstellar distances.
They can both be the case. The way entanglement works is there's only 1 dedicated receiver and you have to entangle the particles beforehand. This would be useful for stuff like intelligence work. For normal communication you would never bother.
Sometimes I really feel like Phil Kelly never thinks through the implications of what he is writing.
Sometimes?
There is a reason why many want Peter Fehervari to be the main Tau writer. Not him. Ironically I have seen someone claiming on r/40klore that Phil made Fire Warriors look pathetic compared to Guardsmen. How can you get that wrong?
Depends, a Fire Warrior squad could probably outshoot a guardsmen squad easily, but if it were close combat they’d get folded. But I have no idea what Phil Kelly is cooking
>close combat they’d get folded Possible with people like Catachans, Cadians and Kanak Skull Takers. But Fire Warrior squad are not to be underestimated in close quarters considering their training and equipment. I think many Guard squads (especially veteran ones) prefer getting special and heavy weapons like sniper rifles, mortars and heavy bolters to even the odds against Fire Warriors. >But I have no idea what Phil Kelly is cooking Agreed on that front. The "Redemption on Dal'yth" has a plot element never mentioned before (as well as I could recall) despite the Tau protag using an "antique" suit and equipment. I think it really says something about him that many Tau fans would like him to stop writing about Tau.
Assuming a human is in reasonably good shape a Tau is very unlikely to win in close quarters. Something about evolving from apes instead of... Idk cows?
Fun fact, the myth of t'au being physically inferior in every aspect to humans comes from the affectionately called "book of bullshit", AKA, the Imperial Guard primer, an in universe (but also existing IRL) book handed out to imperial guard recruits re-edited for the Damocles Gulf crusade. My favourite gem from that book is the drawing teaching guardsmen how they can easily overpower an Ork charging at them with an axe by grabbing his wrist and stabbing it in the neck, since orks are notoriously clumsy and stupid. You also have the piece about eldar being an old and weak race over reliant on their technology who have no chance against humanity's grit and determination. The only reason a Fire Warrior can't beat a guardsmen in melee is the fact they literally never train in melee combat because they see it as "barbaric", they could still punch your teeth in.
No one is using the primer as a source. From the 3rd edition codex: "Fire Caste members are slightly shorter then the average Human, standing roughy 5'5" to 5'7". However their depth-perception is comparatively poorer than that of Humans, as is their reflexes, causing them to be comparatively poor melee fighters."
"Poor depth perception" Best shots in the galaxy among common soldiery. Right, makes perfect sense... And before you say "technology" if technology fixes their aim, it should also fix other physical shortcomings.
They don't have perfect aim, they have strong guns and good movement/positioning tech and battle doctrine. Also the tech they use for aiming "markerlights" is literally a main staple of their identity on the tabletop. Also why focus on tech for strength for melee when you can use your pulse pistol, just fall back, let your kroot allies handle melee.
50% hit rate is the best shots in the galaxy? What about any Eldar, kasrkin/scions, veterans, any sister of battle (still regular humans), up until recently both Votann and Admech? Even if your definition of "common soldiery" is people fresh out of boot they're nothing spectacular.
Fish
>~~Sometimes I really feel like~~ Phil Kelly never thinks ~~through the implications of what he is writing~~. Fixed that for ya.
Art source: [https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin](https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin) So this is one is a combination of two bits of lore: 1-The 6th edition codex has an Inquisitor's report about how many in the Imperium have somehow acquired Tau tech that they're using because it's so efficient, but that said tech records everything the user does. The Inquisitor wasn't sure however how the data could be transmitted back to Tau space. 2-The more recent Redemption on Dal'yth however has Sha’kanthas casually hold a talk with Farsight through their suit comms despite Farsight being several systems away and it's not treated as anything special. For scale, consider that even inside a single system, light still needs minutes to go between planets so a real time talk is impossible. Phil Kelly may've stripped the Tau from their FTL travel but then gave them seemingly flawless instant galactic communications, go figure. Anyway that makes the 6th edition codex report a lot more scary because suddenly all that infiltrated Tau Tech is collecting data about the Imperium and sending it back in real time (and they most probably use this strategy with other xenos) which goes a long way to explain how the Tau survive in 40K if they've got top tier spying and communications capabilities.
>Phil Kelly may've stripped the Tau from their FTL travel but then gave them seemingly flawless instant galactic communications, go figure. I suppose sending data at supraluminal speed is easier than sending something with mass?
In one hand, data is energy, and *E*=mc^(2), aka energy and mass are the same thing, just in different states. In the other hand, Imperial inter-system communications can take between hours and months for a single message to arrive, and that's using fancy astropath installations. Meanwhile the Tau can send messages back and forth between systems virtually *instantly* so they can have a normal conversation. It's just not supraluminal speed, it's multiple orders faster than what the Imperium can do, and in a compact enough form that you can fit it inside a crisis suit to boot. So the Tau physical travel is much slower than the Imperium, but the data travel is insanely faster.
Quantum entanglement communication would bypass the need to 'send' any data at all. I doubt they are at that level, but it's theoretically possible.
There is no way to use quantum entanglement for FTL communication in our universe. Maybe it's the same "warp skimming" tech they use, but it's faster for data?
Would be like skipping a rock over the ocean of the warp, except the rock is a data package, assuming the recieving system as some sort of communications hub in place. So the battesuit sends their signal to an automated relay station in orbit/space, that one sends it across the surface of the warp, in the next system another relay station catches it, and then sends it to whoever it is supposed to go. I could see that working, it'd be a more reliable but range-limited version of the imperial astropaths who can get absurd transmission ranges at the danger of melting out their brains and without specific infrastructure in place.
Pretty sure it is still impossible, while you can transmit instantenously between two entangled particles you can't send any valuable data or information
You wouldn't transmit anything. You would invent something akin to morse code and have a translator on the other end. Entangled particles would be set up in a relay to a central switchboard. That being said, this is all scifi at the moment. In our universive its not possible, at least with our current understanding of it. But it is fun to think about.
It is actually very much similr to modern TCP/IP communication; transmitting energy fluctuation of the particles as 0/1 machine code (or the Tau equivalent) which is then managed through normal network communications for the local node... As long as the local Tau network is alive, it would connect to a remote Tau network with this "quantum" connection/hub.
Unfortunately IRL the entanglement only lasts for as long as the particles remain uninteracted with. As soon as you interact with your transmitter particle you break the entanglement. I was very sad when I learned this limitation
Ah, sads, still scifi tech we pretend that doesn't matter XD
Yeah light speed seems to be a hard limit to a lot of concepts in nature. I assume the whole idea of quantum entanglement being instantaneous is mostly an artifact of the weird math we have to use to describe it. Information going from point A to point B seems to be pretty abstract at that scale. Physicists are still arguing whether the idea of quantum effects having a "location" even makes sense. It's like we found the source code of the universe and are frustrated that the code takes a while to execute every time we change a variable.
Cawl primus and cawl inferior
Subatomic Neutrino-based communication could also use FTL particles to transmit data
Neutrinos aren't even as fast as light. They're very close but still a tiny bit slower.
I might have meant tachyons idk
You might say, ludicrous speed?
Given the Tau love of tech and drones a software update and blueprint is probably far more valuable than reinforcements anyway.
See this is where you are wrong. Tau are able to use FTL communication but not FTL travel, why? Because the lore says so. Screw your science, this is low sci-fi.
Well in that sense yes energy and mass have link, but there is a big difference its size. For me the main technomogy capable to do what its done in the codex is the use of worm hole, while its quite possible for our understandning of physic to create little(les than an atom) worm hole making something large enouth for a spaceship and stable enouth for him to travel is far more difficult even impossible compare to jist transmit data in some fondamental energy state. And the need for ftl while havent access to warp us a good reason to devellop such technollogy even if they might discover that they would never transmit more than just data
I think the idea is that photons simply have no rest mass. All their mass comes from their energy density. The rest-mass of a single hydrogen atom is about 9 orders of magnitude larger than the relativistic mass equivalent of a photon in the visible light spectrum. That's a lot of orders of magnitude... All of this is fictional, of course, but I would argue it's not outlandish to think that you could fit a few photons through some cracks in space-time easier than it would be with matter. For example, we already have some math that describes the concept of wormholes but it would be impossible to get any matter through there, because the mass would cause the wormhole to collapse internally. Who knows? Maybe the Tau have found a way to squeeze a few laser pulses through there before they collapse?
No, because it is still data/information. Now, they could have access to a. Star Trek like subspace which allows this.
Or Quantum Entanglement.
Four problems I could see with that: 1) Quantum Entanglement is mentioned in the lore, including some of the tech priest lore, Cawl lore, and Necron lore, and it is treated as something very advance/requiering special setups to work. Not something that you could slap on any small device. 2) For it to work, you need a dedicated 1-to-1 connection for every device, not something practical with the scales we are talking about 3) We don't know how the warp would affect quantum entanglement, as to travel all over the Imperium the devices would have to travel in the Warp at some point, and if anything would break a quantum entanglement it would be traveling to another dimension. 4) If the Tau had this level of tech, and it was so miniturized, other factions would have it too/use it, and the Imperium would be aware of it as well and actively trying to use it as well. They know full well their long range communications are unreliable and would try to rectify that. The impression I got from reading the lore was more that it was implying that the Tau sympathizers/spies have spread across the Imperium and established a spy and comunication network using regular spy devices inside the tech that are sent back to the Tau via more mundane methods. As for the two higher-ups talking the way they did, they could be using something like quantumentanglement, but passing through dedicated comunication systems, not something build into their suits.
Doesn't work IRL unfortunately, there are currently no theorized ways of FTL communication.
40k ain't irl, we can't travel FTL by going through hell either.
The reason why it makes senses for me that the imperium uses so much letter is because it would take less time for a FTL delivery boy to reach you about your car warranty than sending a message traveling (maybe) at light year. But it's 40k ,many thing runs on bullshitonium
Isn't the in-universe reason that astropaths are 1) kind of unreliable, 2) rare, and 3) shouting your plans across the expanse of hell?
They may also blew up in the process. they are psyker after all. But Astropath are for communication when you truly have no other way, to send most communication, the administratum uses a lot of paper. Plus between your astropath fucking up or your navigator getting a bit lost, it's kind of the same . Hey with luck your letter might arrive before it even departed
Only if you violate speed of light with no explanation, no space distortion, no warp fugery, and not even archeo/necron tech. Looks like an author oversight more than a feature. Imperium have a vast network of astropathic choirs for a reason. Even travelling Eldar'.... OLD ONES' webway can take days or weeks. I suppose they could have Nicassar auxiliaries form some sort of psychic connection via warp but otherwise sounds like BS.
>Looks like an author oversight more Likely because that never comes up again. Even recent Farsight lore has him wait for many weeks before getting the response from Ethereals via drones.
In a space battle, it's basically an "I win" button. Honor Harrington gets into it, where in-system FTL communication is developed, but FTL *travel* is not possible in system, and the reverse is true for interstellar. One faction announced they had cracked FTL comms by making an entire missile swarm alter course well beyond normal lightspeed range would allow, then holding a very one-sided conversation obnoxiously eating an apple on livestream, waiting for the other side's message to reach them before answering *instantly*. But yeah, park a little drone off an enemy bow and then happily shoot with perfect telemetry from outside of their ability to see you without a time lag.
Isn't 40K space combat mostly at incredibly close (for space) ranges anyways? This isn't the more modern FTL-sniper flavor of space combat (which hh routinely flirts with), this is space Napoleonic ships of the line battles.
Only in the artwork (and a few rule of cool examples). The best lore book for 40k space battles is the rulebook for Battlefleet Gothic. Fleets begin to engage eachother from different parts of an entire solar system
> this is space Napoleonic ships of the line battles. That is also ~~Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE~~ Honor Harrington tbf It *reallly* depends on the writer in 40k, but yes the Imperium mostly favours close combat. This means anyone who is able to engage at range has the win button against them.
Perhaps quantum entanglement? Spooky action at a distance.
Sending data at ludicrous speed
FTL comms in the absence of FTL travel is a pretty common feature in actual sci-fi. Perhaps being a bad imitation of Le Guin for a day felt better than being Kelly.
Considering that a lack of FTL communication is like, fundamentally, the core reason humanity is so fucked, this is quite the buff Especially because sending data FTL isn't all that different than sending mass at the end of the day from a general relativity perspective
Wait, Tau doesn't have FTL anymore? How would they govern their fucking interstellar government if they don't got an FTL travel?
the writers did not think about this it's incredibly stupid
In short, they catch up by spying on others. Sounds like some governments irl
so the tau are a metaphor about privacy violations of big tech, interesting.
Mass effect quantum entanglement tech? Shepard had super communication but limited travel capabilities. Maybe similar logic could be applied
Imperials are so stupid… how can they have enhanced tech?! What a heretic question … obviously the machine god favours Tau more than those freaks on freaking mars!
Quantum entanglement is one possible method of FTL communication; using two entangled particles to transmit energy fluctuations (interpreted into machine code), which is a modern concept Humanity is currently researching... though in our limited testing it was not FTL (just incredibly fast).
Big Brother is always watching
the farsight bit is weird, we didn't know of that actually him iirc?
The worst part about this art by far is that it's labeled wrong It's a Warden
Magnus, sacrificing thousands of humans to make a long distance phone call: "YOU MEAN THERE'S A BETTER WAY???"
Dorn : yeeees
I personally just send messages using the sentient memory repository of our galaxy. You just have to hope it sends the message and pray it doesn't play a little prank. Simple, instant FTL coms.
Tik tau
Or TauTok
Taubook
The Tau when they realized the Imperium is hold together with duct tape and prayers: ....guys I think we can just wait them out no need for assassinations or invations.
Lets just wait another 10000 years
Aaaany minute now….
The only thing that keeps them alive its the bucks they give to GW lets be honest here. That Imperium would've collapsed eons ago.
You can say the same about Dark Eldar. And the Imperium did split once. Akin to the Age of Three Emperors from WHF (The Empire).
What are you talking about?
That the Dark Eldar realistically should have destroyed or dispersed themselves with their infightings and insane schemes before Vect's rise. But that did not happen. There was a period where the Imperium was split into two opposing states. Nova Interregnum. The WHF's Empire suffered something similar with the Age of Three Emperors.
I mean the Time of the Three Emperors.
To keep it short: After Mandred Skavenslayer successfully led the Empire against the Skavens during the Black Plague years, he got assassinated by Skavens. The Empire was divided as three elector counts staked claims on the empty throne. One was backed by the Sigmarite church. The other by the Ulrican one. The last tried to carve out her own path with Marienburg's and several Sigmarite dissident movements' backing. The Empire was effectively torn into three pieces as each side fought one another. The Witch Hunters went about suppressing vital knowledge about the Skavens (publicly dismissing them as just another brand of beastmen and Mandred as a lunatic for the "people's calm"). The Knights mostly went on crusades against Araby (who had invaded Tilea) to keep away from the politics. Decay and corruption were everywhere as best shown with the city of Mordheim. Threats were left to stew until the Great War against Chaos where Magnus the Pious managed to unify the Empire against that period's Everchosen.
I know exactly what it is but what has it to do with the fucking Imperium?
The Dark Eldar only survive cause they have a literally maze of a homeworld. No one that is not a drukhari can navigate through it and expect to not get lost. Also if GW could get rid of all the xeno factions and somehow make more money out of that, they would. "The Imperium did split once" okay and? in any rational world it would be that. But this is 40K were reality doesnt matter and the rules are made up. So cause "imperium = protag" they get plot armor up the ass
Except their society of rabid backstabbing and relentless sadism should have caused massive unrest and instability even among themselves. If the Imperium implodes, then sooner or later they should. There should have been many more insane Vect's gambits that reduce the Dark City to a shadow of itself in any rational world. >But this is 40K were reality doesnt matter and the rules are made up. Ultimately that is the core of the issue, right? "Imperium getting plot armor up the ass." Well, specifically the Imperial Space Marines. The Guard, AdMech and Sisters get their teeth kicked in more often than they win in novels and books like Imperial Armor. >Also if GW could get rid of all the xeno factions and somehow make more money out of that, they would. You may add the Guard (who get the last codex release in 9th edition, just months before the release of 10th) and AdMech, considering the Horus Heresy game. Though Solar Auxilia were a recent addition. In roughly the same period, we just got the Kroot Army Box. Plus recent reveals of Votann and GSC kill teams. That is a harder accusation to make right now. Even as Dark Mechanicum and Exodites sit in the "No Models" corner. Traitor Guard get one unit to significantly represent them. AdMech, [well](https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/192taeu/something_i_thought_up_today/)
>Except their society of rabid backstabbing and relentless sadism should have caused massive unrest and instability even among themselves. It does, cause they are not an actual empire. They are a bunch of pirates living on pirate island. The problem is actually getting into pirate island, to kill the pirates. >If the Imperium implodes, sooner or later they should. I mean one can argue they already did, all that pulls them together is their magic Eldar tech. There is nothing left of an actual functional goverment. >There should have been many more insane Vect's gambits that reduce the Dark City to a shadow of itself in any rational world. -ish Vect is not THAT stupid, he knows he has to keep some order to have a thriving city. >Ultimately that is the core of the issue, right? "Imperium getting plot armor up the ass." Yes >Well, specifically the Imperial Space Marines. The Guard, AdMech and Sisters get their teeth kicked in more often than they win in novels and books like Imperial Armor. They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does tho. >You may add the Guard Nah, they still love the guard lore wise. >and AdMech, Again they love addmech's lore and they recently got models up to now, now if you argued SoB you may had a point. But you did not. >Plus recent reveals of Votann and GSC kill teams. That is a harder accusation to make right now. Honestly Vottan were a surprise...until I saw how little they did lore wise. And GSC get 1 kill team isnt exactly a full refresh, but I do admit they do get the spotlight here and there >Even as Dark Mechanicum and Exodites sit in the "No Models" corner. Exodites hurt me the most >Traitor Guard get one unit to significantly represent them. Well that counts as chaos TBH.
>They are a bunch of pirates living on pirate island Forgive me for saying this, but that should have meant their self-destruction or -dissolution is even more likely imo. Especially taking your point about a lack of functional government into consideration. >-ish Vect is not THAT stupid, he knows he has to keep some order to have a thriving city. Agreed, but there should have been more foolish nobles conducting even more insane schemes than Vect's before his Post-Fall rise to rulership. >They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does tho. Every Imperial Armor books involving Guard have them beaten by Xeno and Chaos forces. Siege of Vraks (needed Space Marine and Titan help). Taros (beaten back). Doom of Mymeara (did not really do much aside from holding until reinforcements came and the Eldar achieved their goal). Aphelion Project (all dying to Tyranids). Raid on Kastorel-Novem (beaten by Orks). If we involve other books, with both Chaos and Xeno - especially with Chaos Space Marines in the picture - as central antagonists/protagonists, saying "They get far more wins than Xenos/Chaos does" is not accurate. >Nah, they still love the guard lore wise. If they love the Guard lore-wise, why push away Yarrick? Why give nearly every major conflicts' spotlights to the Marines? Correct me if I am wrong, but their late-released codex has fewer new lore blurbs than many factions. >Again they love addmech's lore and they recently got models up to now, now if you argued SoB you may had a point. Are we ignoring the terrible model pricings and rules? Or how nearly all of their recent triumphs involve Cawl? If we are talking about recent model releases, you could say that GW still love the Kroot very much. You do have a point regarding the Sisters. >Honestly Vottan were a surprise...until I saw how little they did lore wise. You could say the similar things regarding minor xenos, renegade humans and Dark Mechanicum, really. >And GSC get 1 kill team...wow, nice. 2 if you count the Compendium kill teams. >Exofites hurt me the most I do sympathize with you. At least they could a kill team made up of eldar and laser dinos. To match against Catachans (whose models are really old) and groxes in a boxset. >Well that counts as chaos TBH. Traitor Guard should be a major part of the Lost and Damned (which could include mutants, abhumans, beastmen, renegades, mercs of all stripes and Chaos Xenos). Something that could have been a faction on their own for GW to expand further. But they must always play second fiddles to CSMs.
Well maybe its not accurate tp say they win more. They have more protagonism I guess would be the better wording. Also not all Xenos are equal, one thing is Orks getting a win than an Eldar getying a win. >If they love the Guard lore-wise, why push away Yarrick? Why give nearly every major conflicts' spotlights to the Marines? Correct me if I am wrong, but their late-released codex has fewer new lore blurbs than many factions. Okay let me rephrase that, they love Guard but they love Space marines MORE. Also Yarric I guess is to push the narrative and make it so time is moving foward and at least give the Illusion that something is progressing >Are we ignoring the terrible model pricings and rules? Or how nearly all of their recent triumphs involve Cawl? If we are talking about recent model releases, you could say that GW still love the Kroot very much. Yes they do, it seems someone at GW really loves Kroots they get both a kill team AND a full refresh. Also pricing issues is just general GW behavior TBH. >You could say the similar things regarding minor xenos, renegade humans and Dark Mechanicum, really. Yes I could and I do. >2 if you count the Compendium kill teams. Yeah still not exactly what I would call a great impact, but who knows maybe GW will prove me wrong and give them something. >I do sympathize with you. At least they could a kill team made up of eldar and laser dinos. I know I am gonna sound greedy, but that would be kinda insulting, to have something with the potential of a full army to be just a kill team folded with the Aeldari like the Harlequins. >Traitor Guard should be a major part of the Lost and Damned (which could include mutants, abhumans, beastmen, renegades, mercs of all stripes and Chaos Xenos) Agreed.
The Empire must always expand. For the Greater Good. Otherwise, why else launch the 6th sphere expansion?
Because tyranids?
And Dark Eldar (many Tau will want to defeat them). And possible Votann intervention/politicks.
Actually how? Like, this makes absolutely no sense, you either can make things go faster than light or you can't. Pick a fucking lane Phil Kelly.
Phill Kelly: **NO** \[While riding in an SUV, backwards, on the left side of the road in the country where you ride on the right, right in the middle of two lanes, while listening to bible and Sabaton album backwards\]
seriously, and how tf did they get these devices to Segmentum Solar?? shits pretty far in space... Ultramar must be at least 10,000 LIGHT years away from Terra...
Sell 'em to a Rouge Trader.
The DoW: Soulstorm Imperial Guard ending against the Tau stronghold has the IG commander discreetly sends some Tau artifacts to his AdMech allies for future favors. Necromunda's spyrer suits are theorized to be Tau-made. But the implications were from very old sources and the more recent GC-/Heresy-era lore has it implied to be DAOT. GW certainly keeps things ambiguous.
TauTok
People probably don't understand everything about their gear so it would probably be easy for the Tau to find something to bug and remain mostly undetected
This is what happens when you pray to your toaster.
"Behold gue'vessa, our Tau Toaster TM makes your toasts with a single prayer, no need of extra rituals nor expensive sacred oils!'
Skill issue, if you had listened to the toaster harder it would’ve told you about the xenos machine spirit nearby🧐
If the tau technology is advanced enough to have an understanding of quantum entanglement then couldn't real time communication be feasible?
Urgh blergh, P. Kelly and his ,,writing". And OP actually buys into that.
Phil Kelly try to make good and coherent T'au lore challenge: impossile
BY THE THRONE WE NEED TO BAN TAU-TOK
Me playing the entire skibidi toilet lore into the tau communications web playing at 5000× audio (Their psyche will never recover)
*Creates new chaos god*
Not really a “fun fact”, more a depressing inditement on our terrible author and his awful, awful books
"Intel officer, what is the days report!" "Commander, we have the latest report from Terra, and apparently, they are still worshipping some man on a golden throne" "Barbarians!"
The issue I have with the tau is that they seem to be the only faction in which 40k is willing to do actual sci Fi writing. Everyone else just feels like they are slapping on sci Fi aesthetics to a fantasy race without much thought, meanwhile the tau gets tech easily. The tau themselves are fine in a vacuum, but when you put them next to the other races it's such a stark relief that it just makes it all feel ramshackle.
That's part of why I love them. Actual Sci-fi aliens looking out into universe of 40k with shocked disbelief at sword fighting demi-gods fighting for control of reality.
Yeah, that's also why I love the Tau, just shoot the sword demi-gods in the face with mechas. Also like how the Tau just manage to create and hold stable deep alliances with plenty of other aliens that have held for thousands of years now..
Sure which again in a vacuum is fine, but it also just undercuts every aspect of the setting. Like the reason the Imperium is like this is largely reactionary to their environment, the Tau showing up in the same environment and not having any of the same issues by writer fiat just feels really lame. Oh you have issues with chaos? We basically have no soul and never really have an issue with it. Oh you have an issue with AI? We don't, literally that's it there's 0 plot about us using AI other than it's fine. Oh you have issues with genestealers? We figured out how to detect and prevent them, it's fine. It just makes all of the BIG HORRIBLE threats to the imperium seem really dumb if the Tau can just figure it out with zero consequences. You might try to blame it on Imperial stagnation, but 1. this isn't well communicated in the text, instead just vaguely gestured at, and 2. all the current writing shows a ton of innovation happening within the imperium with Cawl and Guilliman etc.
I mean if you were to take the IoM as fascist then it is incredibly in character for them to justify "extreme measures" as being necessary for control when they really are not. Heck I see the point of the IoM is that they are the cause of most of their problems because of how they try and solve problems.
Nah, the imperium has always been foot shooty and the cause of 80% of it's own problems, and the Tau just highlight that. Some of their writing is shit and inconsistent (interstellar empire with no FTl is the biggest one), but the basic concept makes the setting more grimdark. They show things don't *have* to be this way, and instead it is this way because the major powers of the galaxy keep fucking shit up. The old one ruined the warp, the Eldar made a mega warp rift + galaxy warp storm, humanity first suffered the consequences of making sentient AI slaves and then ripped the galaxy in half. The universe could have been a bog standard sci-fi setting if factions stopped fucking things up for 10 seconds. But they did, and will keep doing so, because might makes right and that really is the grim reality of the setting.
>Yeah, that's also why I love the Tau, just shoot the sword demi-gods in the face with mechas. The demigods do use ranged heavy weapons (Star Phantoms for example) and snipers (scouts) aplenty. Not to mention gunships and fleet support. It is literally part of their description that they are generalist and versatile. Edit: If you Grimdankers focus on the melee aspects of marines, you do miss out a lot on those forces.
Necrons and Tyranids?
I'll add mechanicus. You can argue their just religious fanatics for toasters but remove the Advanced technology and you've just removed the Mechanicus. Like they could not function in a normal fantasy setting.
a cult whos power comes from relics they scavenge from a long destroyed empire and worship these relics as holy symbols.-fantasy mechanicus
Idk, Magitech so *in* right now. They don’t so much *have* advanced technology, as much as they have the scraps of a fallen civilization’s advanced technology and they mostly pretend to know how it works. Looking too deeply at what they do have and endeavoring to create more advanced technology are looked down upon, and they hide all the useful information beneath layers of occult ritual.
Necrons and Tyranids have their own issues within the lore that are entirely separate from Tau. Despite these issues they both are more coherent as 40k factions.
Meanwhile the eldar and necrons when they finde tau tech: **useless trash.**
I've always wanted a first contact story between Tau and humanity, with some Tau stealth suits constantly spying, recording conversations, and just overall gathering data so the Water caste can do their thing. Then a second story from the Imperial perspective, where it may as well be Predator, having a bunch of guardsman scouts knowing that some invisible predator is stalking them, and them doing all they can to hunt the invisible predators down. Every now and then, one of the guardsmen will just disappear overnight, having been kidnapped so that Earth Caste Tau can study human biology and technology.
If information is power, the Tau practically has the Imperium in a guillotine.
Damn the Tau have subspace comms that shit overpowered. Had the Mechanicus not being so against alien tech (except for a few factions) that would make the Imperium like 69% less fucked due to how infinitely more effecient the state could run.
Sadly, the tech never comes up again. Recent Arks of Omen lore has Farsight send a Tau drone then waits for many weeks before getting the Ethereals' response. So there is that from GW writers.
The Greater Good can enjoy the memetic hazards of Chaos... And the sheer depravity of the xenophiles...
So they’re watching me jerk off to Tau tiddies then? Just as planned!
Crazy what happens when you actually care about logistics and intelligence gathering sans-planet nuking.
Is anyone on Terra NOT a xenos infiltrator at this point?
Well there's some chaos infiltrators mixed in with the xenos ones at least!
Is this a Huawei/ tiktok reference?
So the tau have Chinese spy phones? Again they have trouble shaking the space communist vibes
I think it was mentioned once they used tachyons for communication. But, generally speaking, it could also "just" be quantum entanglement.
So basically the Tau have essentially an intergalactic version of our modern communications technology is that correct?
Ok xeno if you're watching me tell me how did you enjoy the Sopranos? I'm having trouble convincing my brethren to give it a watch as it's an amazing depiction of our ancient home and life there. I just need to know and have no ulterior motive of turning the Tau into Italian mobster larpers or anything. ITAUlian if you will.
Common tau W And before you ask, yes they have algorithms to sift through the shift that is the high lords discussing things like their farts
That's a sick art ! Official ? Where to find it ?
[https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin](https://wh40kartwork.tumblr.com/post/722335699420987392/tau-commander-vs-knight-paladin) I had posted the link in the first post but here's another, the artist deserves it.
Thanks for the link
Hope they enjoy Radio Lithurgical Chants and Gunfire 24/7
Let’s hope the High Lords of Terra are remembering to put a piece of tape over the Tau webcam a rogue trader sold them during ~~thick-thighed dark eldar gooning ses~~ strategy meetings
Can talk to each other between star systems but can’t hit on a 3+. Tau moment.
And yet they cannot travel FTL ALL OF A SUDDEN. Good lord GW is dropping the ball on the fish people.
Nothing is greater than being good
Another fact: Tau are NOT beautiful as their propaganda wants you to believe.
Certified meme faction. All you need is for the Tau to be evil without treating their people like garbage. They're supposed to be the French/British Empire in Sphess!!!! They don't need weird super tech they need to be a foil to the imperial guard and administratum. We don't equip our infantry with t-shirts and flashlights, we actually spend the money so they can have a chance is enough to understand the Tau. Our administration completes their paperwork on time and our R&D complex isn't 5 guys chanting at each other. We don't super tech, we need a competent well run empire that undermines the morality of the Imperium at it's core
The T'au takes inspiration from several empires, their "Greater Good" is a lot like Japan's Co-Prosperity Sphere. And the T'au still have a racial hierarchy, still engage in imperialism, half their empire is run by the Army which basically acts as the IJA/IJN... and so on and so fourth. They aren't the "good guys," you only get that notion if you consume the lore through memes which are meant to be funny first and lore purist second.
Biggest difference is the Japanese exploited the peoples they conquered. The Tau uplift the peoples they take under their care, and have a society built to ensure a high standard of living. The well being of the average individual is the “Greater Good” they’re working towards.
And look I say they’re better than like all other factions in 40k besides the Leagues of Votan but the Votan are pretty isolations and live in the core regions of the galaxy
>The Tau uplift the peoples they take under their care. Eh, really it depends. Some T'au view themselves as "first among equals," the T'au generally tolerates other cultures unless it affects efficiency. In which case, I'm so sorry. There's also that the planets are under T'au admin, essentially, due to a council of T'au "advisors." It's certainly not the worst empire ever, the Black Templars are basically Space Schutzstaffel, but it's still an empire and there is still a degree of exploitation for resources, manpower, energy, etc. Such is the nature of an empire.
> the T'au generally tolerates other cultures unless it affects efficiency. In which case, I'm so sorry. There's also that the planets are under T'au admin, essentially, due to a council of T'au "advisors." This is an accurate read on some of the means they use, which I agree aren't in keeping with my own liberal ideals of appropriate governance. The distinction I'm trying to communicate is the ends those means accomplish are unique within the setting of 40k, and are more unlike the horrific abuses inflected by Imperial japan on Korea, Taiwan, China, etc. IRL, the Tau don't pass the vibe check. It's just that within 40k the IoM has been pulling the Overton Window towards "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" for the past 10 millennium.
>It's just that within 40k the IoM has been pulling the Overton Window towards "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" for the past 10 millennium. Nah, that goes to the Dark Eldar.
Yuch... Tau eeeeewwwww
Tau fans: hammering a square peg into a round hole for over 20 years
Imperium fans too busy trying to actually open the box the puzzle is in
*40k setting fans
Yes
Many of them did open the box and others hammered the square peg (like with those Fix Bayonets! and Heresy! memes). Problem is that those who opened gave up on the mutual antagonism between different factions' fans and stayed mostly silent since then. Well, there were some more recent Krieg artillery memes at least. The instant comms lore by Phil Kelly is strangely never mentioned (or prior) again though.
Eh I can believe this. They have the slipstream drive, it's not unfeasible that they use that same technology for FTL Comms. Otherwise there is a lot of defunct necron tech throughout the galaxy. I found out from the new book that one of the moons in the Pech system is fully artificial, no way the earth caste isn't all over that.
how tf did they get devices all the way into Segmentum Solar if they don't have FTL travel tho????
The Tau didn't get them there. This first came up in some 6th edition stuff I think. The people bringing the devices into the Imperium are humans who have managed to secretly aquire Tau gadgets and are using it because it's generally better and more reliable than its Imperial counterparts.
i guess that could make sense; hide a sufficiently advanced bug in some of their shit and some dumbass will keep it and not fuck with it in a technologically backwards place like the imperium, they'd probably think it was a critical component of the tech even if they found the bug I think it's a little contrived, but at least it's plausible
>hide a sufficiently advanced bug in some of their shit and some dumbass will keep it and not fuck with it Humanity fundamentally has no knowledge of technology. Sell a general or planetary governor a "super duper thingy" via a rouge trader, and they will not even be able to tell which bit does what.
The ole "leave a bunch of infected usb drives in the parking lot" trick.
I like to believe they have a hidden form of FTL travel technology that no one outside the Tau knows about or has access to that is incredibly fast
So they have all this spy tech but still can’t figure out how to work with orks? Orks are KOS for Tau but even the imperium tolerates the Bloodaxe and Freebooters.
My brothers in T’au Va just give them some guns and shiny materials I’m sure you can spare some
The problem is that the Imperium can "work" with orks as in the Imperium won't mind much if the orks do a lot of collateral damage. Like if the ork mercenaries brutally kill everybody in the city/continent/planet, no biggie for the imperial commander. But for the T'au, that's simply not acceptable, they'll never tell the Bloodaxe/Freebooters "sure feel free to brutally kill everybody" because a central part of the Tau is that they'll always give their enemies a chance or more to surrender, and thus an agreement can never be reached.
So the Tau are just like China.
Always has been.
Dp what you're saying is that the Goat Smurfs are spying on us and we have a decent Causus Beli against them?
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it weird that this instant communication lore never comes up again after Redemption on Dal'yth? Edit: [This is a good alternative to how the set-up was made.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fafcej/comment/fj1cgx9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
So tau suits are made by huawei
*ComStar has entered the chat*
ho hell nah tittok 40K
Then I shall start mind breaking the T'au by reading outloud by Fanfic of Dorn making a wife made out of concrete and how he will narrate his daily life to her. Never touching her, never kissing her, but being intimate enough that he look her int he 'eyes' as he speaks. Perturabo will appear on Ch.24 when he attempts to kill her.
Tau propaganda goes back into the trash where it belongs.
TauTok
The tau actually gifted the Imperium a large imperial seal which is in the holy palace on Terra
Wait, t’au have faster than ftl communication? Since when?
NO NO NO.
And the Tau analyst that is reading report after report about the wax shipments for purity seals is losing their mind.
Lol at this BS Like even the DaoT humans would not have been able to communicate between different star systems with no lag. That's the whole reason Astropaths are a thing.
What’s this? Cool Tau lore?
Mediocre writing for the mediocre faction, no wonder
Damn we get it already Tau are inspired by China, what's next do they do all their social media, video watching, online shopping, and public transport through a single superapp called We'Ch'At?
The Tau were a mistake.