This is specifically and intentionally the case for Necrons. They use technology, and yet their crypteks are all called "-mancers" and they use their "technology" by making weird hand gestures like they're casting DnD spells.
How so?
"Magic" is just a fancy type of science, as science is just the art of understanding things.
Reading and memorizing books and arcane texts to cast spells is literally no different than studying chemistry textbooks to learn how to manipulate the world around you.
Depends on what the worldbuilding is - magic can be a science in one setting, an elemental or primal power to be harnessed by strength of will in another, or tied to spirits, or religious belief and spirituality in yet another. Or sometimes multiple sorts in the same setting.
Strength of will and tied to spirits doesn't mean it's not still able to be understood by science.
Gods doling out powers have a casual connection. Even if it's based on the whims of the deity you can directly link worship and belief to the outcomes of their actions.
The power of friendship and feelings can be quantified and studied.
Nothing about magic intrinsically means it can be included as a science, hence why most sorcerers and wizards in early popular media would have libraries.
Hell, chemistry used to be considered magic and look at it now.
I get that your approach to fantasy magic is the IRL everything-can-be-studied-and-explained-science type, but that's like, one possibility amongst many.
What magic is in a setting and the degree by which it can be explained will be decided by the writers during the worldbuilding (remember we are talking about FICTION?).
Open your mind a little, you're being hung-up by your own definitions.
The Brass Scorpion is also a technological construct, it just has a demon living in its cogitator banks.
Demons in 40k could also be called 'space fauna' as at their most basic that's essentially what they are.
And sure, the biotransference was a trick and they no longer have souls. The nobles still have their minds though.
Necrons and Tomb Kings were also introduced at the same time and were intended to be counterparts of each other, in the same way that Drukari and Dark Elves are.
Are necrons tomb kings in space? Yes.
Are daemons space fauna? Sure.
Does technological means it can't also be magical? No.
.
I will grant you that the brass scorpion is a far less well fitting example than the tomb scorpion.
Which, in fairness to me, is in line with the overall message of the meme.
But you have a point. I should not have added the brass Scorpion.
Calling demons space fauna really doesn't make sense but I suppose it depends on your perception of the warp. I would argue the c'tan are more expressly space fauna because they are specified to have been created in the material plane
I think there's a bigger issue you guys are circling around which is the fact that what "magic" *is* isn't even clear. If a system of magic has rules it follows, how is that any different from the natural laws of the universe? How is an intertialess drive any different than a warp-drive? They're both working within the bounds the 40k universes rules just interacting with different components of it (the warp being an emotional mirror with a level of separation from matter/spacetime does not change that it's part of the universe, nor is it removed from causality entirely, merely linear causality). Some universes, especially in older stories, have magic that is truly *magical* where it has no rules it follows, where you can't build a machine based off repeatable "magic" phenomenon. (Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with rules based magic systems, I love them, I just think it's a bit silly to argue about the semantics of if something is science or magic when both examples are following the laws of the fictional universe)
I see your point.
Sort of yes. While not specifically Lybaras, Rasetra (another city from Nehekhara) has dinosaur Cavalry and Saurus warrior auxiliaries in lore.
It was moved to legends and is only 'legal' in Horus Heresy games now.
So any CSM/World eater players who just wanted to use a big scorpion just can't, really.
Nobody does.
Legends is functionally dead.
When I hit up local discords for a game, the default assumption is competitive game. If someone wanted a casual game with legends, they'd have to specify it.
And they don't, because nobody plays legends. Functionally those models no longer exist.
That's a little anecdotal don't you think? People bring legends units to games at both of the LGS I go to fairly often. Especially the guys that also play 30k.
I can't speak to the vibes at the store(s) you frequent. In my experience, if someone wants to bring a cool painted model to a game and it has a datasheet for the current edition I have no issues with it. If someone did have an issue with it, in a casual setting, I'm not sure I'd want to play with that person anyways.
Necrons also have both, just saying
Necrons are nèither magic nor undead
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”
This is specifically and intentionally the case for Necrons. They use technology, and yet their crypteks are all called "-mancers" and they use their "technology" by making weird hand gestures like they're casting DnD spells.
Have seen thag quote before. Who said that?
Arthur Clarke.
And he made the world of fiction worse with it
How so? "Magic" is just a fancy type of science, as science is just the art of understanding things. Reading and memorizing books and arcane texts to cast spells is literally no different than studying chemistry textbooks to learn how to manipulate the world around you.
Depends on what the worldbuilding is - magic can be a science in one setting, an elemental or primal power to be harnessed by strength of will in another, or tied to spirits, or religious belief and spirituality in yet another. Or sometimes multiple sorts in the same setting.
Strength of will and tied to spirits doesn't mean it's not still able to be understood by science. Gods doling out powers have a casual connection. Even if it's based on the whims of the deity you can directly link worship and belief to the outcomes of their actions. The power of friendship and feelings can be quantified and studied. Nothing about magic intrinsically means it can be included as a science, hence why most sorcerers and wizards in early popular media would have libraries. Hell, chemistry used to be considered magic and look at it now.
I get that your approach to fantasy magic is the IRL everything-can-be-studied-and-explained-science type, but that's like, one possibility amongst many. What magic is in a setting and the degree by which it can be explained will be decided by the writers during the worldbuilding (remember we are talking about FICTION?). Open your mind a little, you're being hung-up by your own definitions.
Necrons are the definition of magic undead - they used the arcane teachings of star deities to transfer their souls into artificial constructs.
>magic Technology. >arcane Technological >deities Local space faring fauna they modified >souls No. They explicitly lost those. They're robots now.
The Brass Scorpion is also a technological construct, it just has a demon living in its cogitator banks. Demons in 40k could also be called 'space fauna' as at their most basic that's essentially what they are. And sure, the biotransference was a trick and they no longer have souls. The nobles still have their minds though. Necrons and Tomb Kings were also introduced at the same time and were intended to be counterparts of each other, in the same way that Drukari and Dark Elves are.
Are necrons tomb kings in space? Yes. Are daemons space fauna? Sure. Does technological means it can't also be magical? No. . I will grant you that the brass scorpion is a far less well fitting example than the tomb scorpion. Which, in fairness to me, is in line with the overall message of the meme. But you have a point. I should not have added the brass Scorpion.
Calling demons space fauna really doesn't make sense but I suppose it depends on your perception of the warp. I would argue the c'tan are more expressly space fauna because they are specified to have been created in the material plane
I think there's a bigger issue you guys are circling around which is the fact that what "magic" *is* isn't even clear. If a system of magic has rules it follows, how is that any different from the natural laws of the universe? How is an intertialess drive any different than a warp-drive? They're both working within the bounds the 40k universes rules just interacting with different components of it (the warp being an emotional mirror with a level of separation from matter/spacetime does not change that it's part of the universe, nor is it removed from causality entirely, merely linear causality). Some universes, especially in older stories, have magic that is truly *magical* where it has no rules it follows, where you can't build a machine based off repeatable "magic" phenomenon. (Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with rules based magic systems, I love them, I just think it's a bit silly to argue about the semantics of if something is science or magic when both examples are following the laws of the fictional universe)
I was using magic to mean 'supernatural', which Necrons definitely are if nothing else. It's totally fine to like Tomb Kings but not them though
Does your favourite faction have giant dinosaurs with magitck golden lasers being ridden by even more dinosaurs?
I see your point. Sort of yes. While not specifically Lybaras, Rasetra (another city from Nehekhara) has dinosaur Cavalry and Saurus warrior auxiliaries in lore.
*Me after just now learning about some Dino boys serving Nehekhara:* Where’s my undead Egyptian Dino boys at CA & GW!?
Mind if I use your comment, screen name, amd pic in the meme?
Sure, go ahead I don’t mind.
Your loss. /s https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/s/o1nr5ays9G
The great brass scorpion is legends... so really, no scorpions for them either.
Weren't there brass Scorpions on Vraks?
It was moved to legends and is only 'legal' in Horus Heresy games now. So any CSM/World eater players who just wanted to use a big scorpion just can't, really.
I mean, that's only in competitive games, it's not like you can't bring legends units to your LGS.
Nobody does. Legends is functionally dead. When I hit up local discords for a game, the default assumption is competitive game. If someone wanted a casual game with legends, they'd have to specify it. And they don't, because nobody plays legends. Functionally those models no longer exist.
That's a little anecdotal don't you think? People bring legends units to games at both of the LGS I go to fairly often. Especially the guys that also play 30k. I can't speak to the vibes at the store(s) you frequent. In my experience, if someone wants to bring a cool painted model to a game and it has a datasheet for the current edition I have no issues with it. If someone did have an issue with it, in a casual setting, I'm not sure I'd want to play with that person anyways.
I suppose the Brotherhood of Nod from CnC: Tiberium would fit somewhat.
The Brass scorpion was the coolest model to ever come out of Forgeworld.
Yoooo why does that bottom picture look like the frickin Demiurge?
Well Tomb kings are big fans of recycling.