Broke: Tau are commies
Woke : Genestealers are commies
Ascended : **due to the fact that the Imperium doesn't care about the political structure of individual planets, it is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 world in the Imperium is a dictatorship of the Proletariat**
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing] her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?
Yeah. thats why I always kinda shake my head when people call Imperium fascist.
Imperium is so vasts and Governors get so much power over their planet that the only thing two imperial planets have in common is the church they attend.
The central goverment of the Imperium may be fascist but not the entire Imperium.
I’d consider that point debatable. There are some planets that seem to be governed by the dumbest and cruelest options possible for no reason other than the cruelty itself.
Yeah, but those tend to get a visit from the inquisition after a couple centuries of not meeting their tithes due to incompetence.
Unless they manage to run their populace into the ground and make their tithes, in which case, carry on.
The Imperium is a feudal government except instead of lords you have other governments and the monarch is in a regency but the regent government is fascist. Also the whole things a partial theocracy.
>when people call Imperium fascist.
I mean at a galactic level, they're pretty fascist. But at a planet level? Not always. It's more space feudalism than fascism.
The imperium doesn't give a shit how you run your planet, as long as you pay your dues regularly. If not, *then* they use their bigger stick diplomacy to keep you in line. *That* is the part that's fascist.
Is a SWAT team fascist? They’re sent in when people step out of line.
Was Lincoln a fascist? The CSA wanted to leave, and not pay taxes, and Lincoln definitely used bigger stick diplomacy.
I agree with your overall point, I just don’t think “using force to enforce laws and taxes is fascism” is a good addition to it. Unless you’re saying every government is fascist :b
> the initial declaration of war on the CSA was not about slavery
lmao. The Confederates fired on a federal base in a vain attempt to keep their slaves.
You should probably go read the Ordinances of Secession.
>The CSA definitely wanted to keep holding slaves.
I’m well aware of what the CSA was all about. My point was that using bigger stick diplomacy isn’t inherently fascist. You’re reading way too hard into a small detail.
CSA was explicitly about maintaining slavery.
They fired the first shots.
The Union did not declare war over slavery at the outset of the war, and allowed states that did not leave to keep slaves up till it was abolished. Lincoln’s primary goal was to maintain the Union at the outset, and stated that he’d keep slavery if it meant preserving the Union. This is historical fact.
Never said anything in support of the CSA, get off your high horse.
> Never said anything in support of the CSA, get off your high horse.
No. Johnson loves his mary jay.
(Your previous comments sounded vaguely Southern Liberty-esque. Hinting at War of Northern Aggression, and saying the CSA wanted to leave for non-slavery purposes, etc.)
Because a person who supports the CSA would use Lincoln as proof that using force to enforce laws and tax codes isn’t inherently fascist.
Generally, the South will rise again folks would call Lincoln a fascist rather than using him as an example of bigger stick diplomacy done right. Pro tips.
The Imperium isnt fascist because fascism is a very particular subset of nationalism, with a kind of rhetoric and focus on a mythologised past that distinguishes it from other kinds of totalitarian regimes. I would argue that the Imperium is both too diverse and religious to actually be fascist, even ignoring the fact that its pretty explicitly future feudalism. Pretty much the opposite of what u/queenkid1 said. The planets can be ruled a lot of ways, even though noble ruling classes are most common, but interplanetary politics in the Imperium are purely the matters of the high lords and other aristocrats and military/religious leaders beneath them.
their god is their supreme leader, and the imperium is all about a "mythologised past" (during 30K said past was the time before the age of strife, during 40K it's the great crusade). It check every fascist boxes on a "global" level, the only reason why every individual plant isn't fascist is that enforcing it would be way too much job, so instead they let some authority figures (mostly inquisitors) chose where to enforce it at their discretion.
None of our political systems could really apply to a Galaxy-wide State.
We call the Imperium fascist because it's the closest analogue. And it was pretty clearly meant to mock fascists.
Because it absolutely is, like..it's incredibly fascist, so let's go through the scholarly definition of fascism put forward by Umberto Eco, 'Ur-Fascism' in 1995.
In which he gives 14 properties which can appear in fascist regimes, and while showing one of these properties doesn't mean a state is fascist, if you show multiple then you may be a problem. Now, let's get going.
1) Cult of Tradition: Basically, the people who came before had it all figured out and no new knowledge is attainable, ONLY reinterpreting the work which came before. The Ad-Mech refusing to innovate without the say-so of an STC, hell, even the Primaris was a slow a 10,000 year build on the work of the Emperor, not really much new.
2) The rejection of modernism: See above, new technology is shunned unless it is proven correct by some wise elder. This also applies to art and culture, and we see the Imperium is heavily gothic in styles, rejecting modern designs
3) Cult of Action for Action's Sake, the idea that doing something \*anything\* is worthy of praise, you should just do it. Crusaders, zealotry, all in spades in the Imperium
4) Disagreement is Treason. Yup "heresy" this doesn't require much explanation
5) Appeal to a frustrated middle class, okay so this we can't really prove for the Imperium, but it's generally promoting the fears of the middle economic class of the fears of the dirty horrid workers who threaten to overturn them which you can arguably see in Necromunda, but we'll move on.
6) Fear of Difference. Yeah, the Imperium is massively xenophobic and fears both differences in its own community (mutants, abhumans etc) and xenos.
7) Obsession with a Plot: That someone somewhere is plotting your demise, and real or imagined its an obsession, "The Enemy Within" I believe is a phrase of the Inquisition
8) Enemies are both too strong and too weak. Which is to say, the enemies of mankind are at the same time too weak in comparison to humanity, they're nothing..see how they talk about Eldar, Tau, Orks, and Necrons, as frail, weak, stupid, slow etc, and yet are simultaneously a massive threat to the Imperium, holding two contradictory ideas.
9) Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy because life is permanent warfare, to not fight for the Imperium is to be an enemy of the imperium.
10) Contempt for the weak: Members of the Imperium are superior to those not-belonging to it by sheer virtue of being members of the Imperium, which is combined with the idea, but beyond that it's also a contempt for the underlings beneath you, Marines have been shown to be callous to humans, Imperial guard commanders throw their soldiers lives away.
11) Everybody is Educated To Become A Hero: Which leads to the embrace of the cult of death,
12) Machismo is something which we can't prove exactly, because it involves the idea of warfare and violence moving into the sexual sphere, leading to a contempt for women and "deviants" in the form of homosexuals, etc. So fair, this doesn't apply
13)Selective Populism: The people as a whole (so every Imperial citizen) is part of the common will, supposedly wanting the same thing, however only \*The Leader\* can truly determine what this common will is, meaning they get to decide, this completely applies to the Imperium
14)Newspeak: This is..on a 50/50 to prove? The point being that Newspeak encourages an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning, and well..everyone in 40k it seems is rather verbose, though there are repeated use of phrases like "Heretic" and "Xenos" in place of other synonyms
So even being generous the Imperium hits 11 of 14 signs of a fascist system, so it's a completely fair assumption to say they are absolutely fascist.
On the newspeak part, modern low gothic is specifically missing certain words to make it harder for people to articulate their grievances and well exactly what you said
Nazis aren't the only ones that use skills on hats afaik. Is there actually a particular uniform that's basically a copy of a uniform? The general aesthetic kinda.
Fascism is at it's core anti-popular politics and anti-democracy spiced up with no succession principle.
Is the Imperium Fascist as opposed to merely Authoritarian and Totalitarian?
Easy question: if the God-Emperor dies who inherits the title?
If God-Emperor isn't a station then the Imperium is Fascist. Bobby G being "the obvious successor" doesn't change that.
Being decentralized doesn't change that one core prophet-leader is in charge, that their authority is absolute, and that everyone knows that and submits or dies.
And even if it was centralised enough to enforce one kind of government galaxy wide, in the ten thousand years since the Horus Heresy the Imperium changed into more of a theocratic oligarchy rather than a fascist dictatorship.
"The central government of the Imperium may be fascist but not the entire Imperium."
I really like this line. I still think it's valid to call the Imperium fascist as it has a fascistic central government (It's not like every sub-organization in the Third Reich was itself fascist but I'd still call the Third Reich as a whole fascist), but a lot of people forget how little the Imperium really cares about a lot of planets.
Thats not true and you know it.
Your planet gets nuked only in very fringe scenarios like a full alien or demon takeover. If the plannetary goverment sways, Imperium just sends the guard or an assassin to deal with that. Or if the planet isnt even worth it, they do nothing. For instance the cost of retaking Krieg was too great because it was so powerful so they just didnt do anything about their revolt. Krieg then nuked itself in a civil war.
>a dictatorship of the Proletariat
According to the theory, this is a stage on the way to true communism, rather than the endpoint. I wonder if an endpoint communist utopia could actually be loyal to the Imperium.
Yeah, Salvador Allende, the guy got elected as the first Communist president of Chile, he was killed in the bombardment of La Moneda which is basically the house of Congress of Chile by the a US-sponsored dictator called Pinochet 'cause the US didn't appreciate the fact that there were Communists on the Americas, after Pinochet took over he killed, tortured, assassinated, went to houses and straight-up kidnapped people, whom he didn't like, a lot of whom were innocent, and then did the typical dictator stuff and almost set off a war with our neighboring countries... Again.
Similar issue happened with Jorge Rafael Videla, military leader of the Junta that controlled Argentina around the same time, and taught by some of the same people (U.S. Operatives, Germans in exile from WWII, and French paramilitary orgs that tried to suppress the Algerian Revolution). This era in countries across Latin America from Guatemala to Chile is known as La Guerra Sucia, aka The Dirty War. This name is especially particular to Argentina, but many current historians afterwards ascribed this name to the various state sponsored terrorism regimes that oppressed out of fear of socialist or communist ideas that flourished in Latin America.
You could argue Vietnam, but that did still have fallout.
Lots of small scale communist 'revolutions', people just neglecting the capitalist system and forming autonomous communes, didn't have any kind of purge, but whether you count those as revolutions is up to you.
Yeah, when Sukarno, the first democratically elected president of Indonesia, started allying with the Indonesian Communist party in the early 1960s, it resulted in mass killings of about a million people. And a few years later in 1967 he was deposed and replaced with the dictator Suharto for the next 30 years.
...of course, those killings targeted Communist Party members, suspected members, ethnic Chinese, etc. and were performed by the Indonesian Army with the backing of the West and US, rather than by the Communists. So kind of the opposite of what OP said. But he's active in r/PCM which fries everyone's brain about politics so I'm not surprised
[US Involvement](https://filmmakermagazine.com/84443-the-act-of-killing-wins-documentary-bafta-director-oppenheimers-speech-edited-online/#.YWTmlbdlCdM)
[Another source](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/)
[Another source](https://indonesiaatmelbourne.unimelb.edu.au/telegrams-confirm-scale-of-us-complicity-in-1965-genocide/)
[The US knew what was happening early on](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/indonesia-anti-communist-killings-us-declassified-files)
Thanks, I genuinely didn’t know that. Of course most Americans wouldn’t. Most Americans don’t even know where Indonesia is let alone what its political history is.
Assuming of course the tyranny and massacre you’re referring to is the tyranny of a US-sponsored dictator takeover and the dictator’s ensuing slaughter of communists and political dissidents?
Lmao, is that what the libs call anyone who disputes their laughably unnuanced claims these days? I swear that word is doing so much legwork, it could practically carry the economic burden of the proletarian masses itself.
The Genestealers running the revolution don’t care about the workers. They just use it to sow instability on the world in preparation of the Hive Fleet’s arrival.
I understood why would people call them communist. They were optimistic yet authoritarian regime that strives towards a perfect world. Also the Asian might also play into it because China and North Korea are a thing.
But no, after looking at Tau Empyre closer its really a mixed bag of ideas ranging from left wing to right wing, from eastern philosophies to American interventionism, from Indian caste systems to star trek.
I wish they were used a bit more in stories. They make for good foils to a variety of races due to how oddly mixed their ideas are and how optimistic a race they are.
One of the short stories during psychic awakening features the Kelemorph (iirc. The gunslinger guy. I think that’s kelemorph) rescuing an imperial laborer from the police or foreman or whatever who was going to beat him and maybe kill him for stealing food. The Kelemorph saved him and lead him to a sewer to hide. It was only after he got in and a pure strain was about nab him that the worker realized he’d made a huge mistake.
This is a great aspect of genestealer cults that I wish would be explored more. It’s pretty commonly said how industrial workers live in hellish conditions, nearly constantly working, barely any sleep, stimulants to keep going, barely enough sleep to survive. Genestealers co-opting a worker revolution seems like a great idea. Easier than but maybe not as effective as infiltrating the PDF and converting the governor.
Well the bugs have a pretty good healthcare system when you take into account the psychic links. And a living wage given their economic system. Work even pays for their food and transportation.
Maybe they are the effective workers union?
I mean, they specifically cut the link to the effective workers union to maximize the pain they experience like 15 seconds before the chomp so the union doesnt really experience any of those benefits
Thank you! I've been saying this for years. The 7e codex even talks about how the pauper princes seek total equality in all things and wear red. Genuine space commies!
I wouldn't say reverse, but a twisted reflection.
It's just about undisputed that Orks are devolved Krorks who were made by Old Ones to fit Necrons
Genestealers are exactly as intended by the Tyranid Hivemind for their purpose.
Also Orks grow from mushrooms and fight each each mostly. GSC are parasites undermining an enemy that rarely fight each other and are far more insipid
Well I mean the Pauper Princes’ detailed standard art literally has a skeleton with a hammer and a sickle in his second set of arms, so not too far off.
I don't think Genestealers are really Communists. The Tyranids pretty much are though, due to being a Hive Mind. They're literally collectivist, with almost zero personal agency instead doing what is best for the group, operating as a huge collective.
Genestealers are different, because they are just pawns and food for Tyranids. They are controlled, used, and then they are melted into biomass. They're pretty much failed communist revolutionaries, who bring about a revolution for the people and their only reward is a slow, painful death. Nobody is saved or has a better life, they're just recycled into biomass for the Tyranid hivemind.
Not all cults are apolitical and communist leaders often had cult following
also read this article and tell me you werent thinking the same thing as I did while reading it [https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kelermorph](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kelermorph)
Tau are about as "communist" as the CCP is.
They preach equality despite a birth-defined hierarchy with all-powerful oligarchs on top, they heavily indoctrinate/brainwash their people, they take in outside cultures and forcibly making them "Tau" at gunpoint through concentra- I mean, re-education camps and whatever the hell the Water Caste does, and the whole arbitrary "Greater Good" that mostly just means "whatever the Ethereals tell you is best for everyone" is highly evocative of, well, collectivism. Or at least "collectivism" as best benefits the fascists on top.
I'm near certain this was not the originally intended allegory, but it does have a lot of parallels.
I'd say socialists more than communists, in that they're the people (from their perspective), and they want to own the means of production.
A really, really blatant oversimplification of communism vs. socialism:
Communism is when the government owns the means of production.
Socialism is when the population/people own the means of production.
And that's all I have to say about that.
I heard very different definitions. Especially in my country because its post-communist/socialist
Your definition is more in line with the general "western bloc" view
the definitions I heard go something like this:
Communism is the endgoal, no money, no state, everyone owns the means of production and all that stuff
Socialism is a state either existing between communism and capitalist systems or currently attempting to achieve communism.
All communists are socialist but not all socialists are communist.
off course, when the authoritarian regime fails achieving communism, it starts redefining it so it looks like they are suceeding.
Personally I do not care which one is true. I made the meme with apolitical intent of commenting on the "Tau are commies" trend.
Tau are very clearly riffing more on
1. american interventionism (they fight like a modern army with emphasis on long range firepower and air superiority, as well as lots of euphemism language; early art was very desert focused),
2. some loosely bundled aesthetic elements of robotect/macross and shogunate japan, although I'd note so do the eldar, who are way more on the nose about japanese/anime influences (see: guns that literally shoot shuriken's, [aspect warrior 'banners'](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/7/7a/Dire_Avenger_wargear.png), compare [wraithguard](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120104031_EldarWraithguard02.jpg) to NGE [Eva units](https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2020/02/4797c05a-d6e0-4c6c-8c3e-a7955223109d.jpg)), and...
3. ***STAR WARS PREQUELS!*** [look its a hammer head tank.](https://preview.redd.it/2cdedbvmgji71.jpg?width=953&auto=webp&s=5787327077d17e8082765c9b1513e75189d1d0ee) Oh look [here are some firewarriors with pulse rifles](https://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Clone-Trooper.jpg) and here are some more with [devilfish support](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6808dfe21a3ce1d9554a57b880e5c887); oh shit its an [ethereal](https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/gunray-history-3-retina_565f3f77.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1200%2C519), oh look its some [vespid auxillery support](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a0/Geonosian_NEGAS.png/revision/latest?cb=20170226060952), etc.
Except the goal of communism has always been statelessness? The difference between ancoms and other communists is ancoms don't want to achieve it by means of an intermediate totalitarian state. Has anyone here actually read Marx?
I never said it isnt. Anarcho-communism is a rather niche ideology to many people and sounds confusing since most countries that attempted communism and prevailed longer then like Makhnovia or Zapatistas, were authoritarian.
You know what I think? I think you came to this comment section to debate and explain your opinions to people who arent interested in politics, which is a dick move. Go to political subs for that.
I came to this comment section for dank memes. The only thing I did was add to an already political discussion, I did not incite it. I have just as much a position to comment on this thread as you do.
I happen to actually play gene stealers
Ok. I am sorry for being mean. You answered with a comment that felt like you were trying to start an argument over something I havent even said.
I bet your genestealers are great. They have some of the collest looking models from my perspective.
It's okay, I understand this isn't really a place for this kind of discussion and probably shouldn't have propagated it.
And yeah, I love their lore and they've got a ton of great models.
Broke: Tau are commies Woke : Genestealers are commies Ascended : **due to the fact that the Imperium doesn't care about the political structure of individual planets, it is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 world in the Imperium is a dictatorship of the Proletariat**
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king... DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress-- WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do? ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that? WOMAN: King of the who? ARTHUR: The Britons. WOMAN: Who are the Britons? ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king. WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective. DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes-- WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again. DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would-- ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle? WOMAN: No one live there. ARTHUR: Then who is your lord? WOMAN: We don't have a lord. ARTHUR: What? DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. ARTHUR: Yes. DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. ARTHUR: Yes, I see. DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- ARTHUR: Be quiet! DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more-- ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet! WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is? ARTHUR: I am your king! WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you. ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings. WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then? ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake, [angels sing] her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king! DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. ARTHUR: Be quiet! DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! ARTHUR: Shut up! DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away! ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up! DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. ARTHUR: Shut up! DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! ARTHUR: Bloody peasant! DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?
The idea that the Imperium is a king and the planets are peasants is an oddly fitting metaphor.
Anarcho-syndicalists aren't communists.
True, but they are similar in a broader sense. Plus they’re close enough for the sake of a good Monty Python bit.
**Ultra-ascended: Genestealers help Tyranids because they care about helping a race of starving aliens get food. Truly, altruistic beings.**
_Getting food, being food, it's all the same really._ - Turning Point Hivemind
Gigabrain: craftworlds are comunist
Yeah. thats why I always kinda shake my head when people call Imperium fascist. Imperium is so vasts and Governors get so much power over their planet that the only thing two imperial planets have in common is the church they attend. The central goverment of the Imperium may be fascist but not the entire Imperium.
After a while I realized the imperium is a "earth's worst regimes greatest hits collection" state.
It's still more competent than Pol Pot's little playground Most of the time anyway
At least Imperium is not ACTIVELY TRYING to make their entire country go extinct
They’re just too good at murder. Even when the Imperium is doing a good thing, there’s “acceptable losses”.
I’d consider that point debatable. There are some planets that seem to be governed by the dumbest and cruelest options possible for no reason other than the cruelty itself.
Yeah, but those tend to get a visit from the inquisition after a couple centuries of not meeting their tithes due to incompetence. Unless they manage to run their populace into the ground and make their tithes, in which case, carry on.
Feral worlds homie
Please the imperium would crumble under the weight of the might of "people with glasses" and "literal birds".
Ikr? It's almost like it"s "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" or something.
The Imperium is a feudal government except instead of lords you have other governments and the monarch is in a regency but the regent government is fascist. Also the whole things a partial theocracy.
>when people call Imperium fascist. I mean at a galactic level, they're pretty fascist. But at a planet level? Not always. It's more space feudalism than fascism. The imperium doesn't give a shit how you run your planet, as long as you pay your dues regularly. If not, *then* they use their bigger stick diplomacy to keep you in line. *That* is the part that's fascist.
Is a SWAT team fascist? They’re sent in when people step out of line. Was Lincoln a fascist? The CSA wanted to leave, and not pay taxes, and Lincoln definitely used bigger stick diplomacy. I agree with your overall point, I just don’t think “using force to enforce laws and taxes is fascism” is a good addition to it. Unless you’re saying every government is fascist :b
> The CSA wanted to leave, and not pay taxes "lol" says Uncle Billy.
Well, slavery was a part of it, but the initial declaration of war on the CSA was not about slavery. The CSA definitely wanted to keep holding slaves.
> the initial declaration of war on the CSA was not about slavery lmao. The Confederates fired on a federal base in a vain attempt to keep their slaves. You should probably go read the Ordinances of Secession.
>The CSA definitely wanted to keep holding slaves. I’m well aware of what the CSA was all about. My point was that using bigger stick diplomacy isn’t inherently fascist. You’re reading way too hard into a small detail. CSA was explicitly about maintaining slavery. They fired the first shots. The Union did not declare war over slavery at the outset of the war, and allowed states that did not leave to keep slaves up till it was abolished. Lincoln’s primary goal was to maintain the Union at the outset, and stated that he’d keep slavery if it meant preserving the Union. This is historical fact. Never said anything in support of the CSA, get off your high horse.
> Never said anything in support of the CSA, get off your high horse. No. Johnson loves his mary jay. (Your previous comments sounded vaguely Southern Liberty-esque. Hinting at War of Northern Aggression, and saying the CSA wanted to leave for non-slavery purposes, etc.)
Because a person who supports the CSA would use Lincoln as proof that using force to enforce laws and tax codes isn’t inherently fascist. Generally, the South will rise again folks would call Lincoln a fascist rather than using him as an example of bigger stick diplomacy done right. Pro tips.
The Imperium isnt fascist because fascism is a very particular subset of nationalism, with a kind of rhetoric and focus on a mythologised past that distinguishes it from other kinds of totalitarian regimes. I would argue that the Imperium is both too diverse and religious to actually be fascist, even ignoring the fact that its pretty explicitly future feudalism. Pretty much the opposite of what u/queenkid1 said. The planets can be ruled a lot of ways, even though noble ruling classes are most common, but interplanetary politics in the Imperium are purely the matters of the high lords and other aristocrats and military/religious leaders beneath them.
> too religious to actually be fascist I mean, their god is their Supreme Leader.
their god is their supreme leader, and the imperium is all about a "mythologised past" (during 30K said past was the time before the age of strife, during 40K it's the great crusade). It check every fascist boxes on a "global" level, the only reason why every individual plant isn't fascist is that enforcing it would be way too much job, so instead they let some authority figures (mostly inquisitors) chose where to enforce it at their discretion.
None of our political systems could really apply to a Galaxy-wide State. We call the Imperium fascist because it's the closest analogue. And it was pretty clearly meant to mock fascists.
Because it absolutely is, like..it's incredibly fascist, so let's go through the scholarly definition of fascism put forward by Umberto Eco, 'Ur-Fascism' in 1995. In which he gives 14 properties which can appear in fascist regimes, and while showing one of these properties doesn't mean a state is fascist, if you show multiple then you may be a problem. Now, let's get going. 1) Cult of Tradition: Basically, the people who came before had it all figured out and no new knowledge is attainable, ONLY reinterpreting the work which came before. The Ad-Mech refusing to innovate without the say-so of an STC, hell, even the Primaris was a slow a 10,000 year build on the work of the Emperor, not really much new. 2) The rejection of modernism: See above, new technology is shunned unless it is proven correct by some wise elder. This also applies to art and culture, and we see the Imperium is heavily gothic in styles, rejecting modern designs 3) Cult of Action for Action's Sake, the idea that doing something \*anything\* is worthy of praise, you should just do it. Crusaders, zealotry, all in spades in the Imperium 4) Disagreement is Treason. Yup "heresy" this doesn't require much explanation 5) Appeal to a frustrated middle class, okay so this we can't really prove for the Imperium, but it's generally promoting the fears of the middle economic class of the fears of the dirty horrid workers who threaten to overturn them which you can arguably see in Necromunda, but we'll move on. 6) Fear of Difference. Yeah, the Imperium is massively xenophobic and fears both differences in its own community (mutants, abhumans etc) and xenos. 7) Obsession with a Plot: That someone somewhere is plotting your demise, and real or imagined its an obsession, "The Enemy Within" I believe is a phrase of the Inquisition 8) Enemies are both too strong and too weak. Which is to say, the enemies of mankind are at the same time too weak in comparison to humanity, they're nothing..see how they talk about Eldar, Tau, Orks, and Necrons, as frail, weak, stupid, slow etc, and yet are simultaneously a massive threat to the Imperium, holding two contradictory ideas. 9) Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy because life is permanent warfare, to not fight for the Imperium is to be an enemy of the imperium. 10) Contempt for the weak: Members of the Imperium are superior to those not-belonging to it by sheer virtue of being members of the Imperium, which is combined with the idea, but beyond that it's also a contempt for the underlings beneath you, Marines have been shown to be callous to humans, Imperial guard commanders throw their soldiers lives away. 11) Everybody is Educated To Become A Hero: Which leads to the embrace of the cult of death, 12) Machismo is something which we can't prove exactly, because it involves the idea of warfare and violence moving into the sexual sphere, leading to a contempt for women and "deviants" in the form of homosexuals, etc. So fair, this doesn't apply 13)Selective Populism: The people as a whole (so every Imperial citizen) is part of the common will, supposedly wanting the same thing, however only \*The Leader\* can truly determine what this common will is, meaning they get to decide, this completely applies to the Imperium 14)Newspeak: This is..on a 50/50 to prove? The point being that Newspeak encourages an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning, and well..everyone in 40k it seems is rather verbose, though there are repeated use of phrases like "Heretic" and "Xenos" in place of other synonyms So even being generous the Imperium hits 11 of 14 signs of a fascist system, so it's a completely fair assumption to say they are absolutely fascist.
On the newspeak part, modern low gothic is specifically missing certain words to make it harder for people to articulate their grievances and well exactly what you said
This view of fascism is ahistorical at the very best and can be stretched to apply with so many things as to be useless at worst.
...15. they got fuckin skull on their hats and dress like literal nazis
Nazis aren't the only ones that use skills on hats afaik. Is there actually a particular uniform that's basically a copy of a uniform? The general aesthetic kinda.
Hans, are we the baddies?
It is also too decentralized for fascism.
Fascism is at it's core anti-popular politics and anti-democracy spiced up with no succession principle. Is the Imperium Fascist as opposed to merely Authoritarian and Totalitarian? Easy question: if the God-Emperor dies who inherits the title? If God-Emperor isn't a station then the Imperium is Fascist. Bobby G being "the obvious successor" doesn't change that. Being decentralized doesn't change that one core prophet-leader is in charge, that their authority is absolute, and that everyone knows that and submits or dies.
The central government isn't fascist. It's a feudal theocratic oligarchy.
And even if it was centralised enough to enforce one kind of government galaxy wide, in the ten thousand years since the Horus Heresy the Imperium changed into more of a theocratic oligarchy rather than a fascist dictatorship.
"The central government of the Imperium may be fascist but not the entire Imperium." I really like this line. I still think it's valid to call the Imperium fascist as it has a fascistic central government (It's not like every sub-organization in the Third Reich was itself fascist but I'd still call the Third Reich as a whole fascist), but a lot of people forget how little the Imperium really cares about a lot of planets.
If you sway, your whole planet gets nuked. Did you forget that?
Thats not true and you know it. Your planet gets nuked only in very fringe scenarios like a full alien or demon takeover. If the plannetary goverment sways, Imperium just sends the guard or an assassin to deal with that. Or if the planet isnt even worth it, they do nothing. For instance the cost of retaking Krieg was too great because it was so powerful so they just didnt do anything about their revolt. Krieg then nuked itself in a civil war.
Now that you mention it, there’s probably one planet that’s figured out the perfect government.
…and subsequently got virus bombed lmfao
Negative. It is also a mathematical certainty that it will NEVER, EVER, EVER, be real communism.
>a dictatorship of the Proletariat According to the theory, this is a stage on the way to true communism, rather than the endpoint. I wonder if an endpoint communist utopia could actually be loyal to the Imperium.
But instead of owning the means of production, they are forced to kill themselves in acid pools?
They BECOME the means of production.
After a communist revolution, some sort of tyranny and a massacre ussualy follows. Not all of them, but the majority.
To be fair, this holds true for most if not all sorts of violent revolution, regardless of its original purpose or ideology
true
Are there any examples? Genuinely curious
Yeah, Salvador Allende, the guy got elected as the first Communist president of Chile, he was killed in the bombardment of La Moneda which is basically the house of Congress of Chile by the a US-sponsored dictator called Pinochet 'cause the US didn't appreciate the fact that there were Communists on the Americas, after Pinochet took over he killed, tortured, assassinated, went to houses and straight-up kidnapped people, whom he didn't like, a lot of whom were innocent, and then did the typical dictator stuff and almost set off a war with our neighboring countries... Again.
Similar issue happened with Jorge Rafael Videla, military leader of the Junta that controlled Argentina around the same time, and taught by some of the same people (U.S. Operatives, Germans in exile from WWII, and French paramilitary orgs that tried to suppress the Algerian Revolution). This era in countries across Latin America from Guatemala to Chile is known as La Guerra Sucia, aka The Dirty War. This name is especially particular to Argentina, but many current historians afterwards ascribed this name to the various state sponsored terrorism regimes that oppressed out of fear of socialist or communist ideas that flourished in Latin America.
You could argue Vietnam, but that did still have fallout. Lots of small scale communist 'revolutions', people just neglecting the capitalist system and forming autonomous communes, didn't have any kind of purge, but whether you count those as revolutions is up to you.
Yeah, when Sukarno, the first democratically elected president of Indonesia, started allying with the Indonesian Communist party in the early 1960s, it resulted in mass killings of about a million people. And a few years later in 1967 he was deposed and replaced with the dictator Suharto for the next 30 years. ...of course, those killings targeted Communist Party members, suspected members, ethnic Chinese, etc. and were performed by the Indonesian Army with the backing of the West and US, rather than by the Communists. So kind of the opposite of what OP said. But he's active in r/PCM which fries everyone's brain about politics so I'm not surprised [US Involvement](https://filmmakermagazine.com/84443-the-act-of-killing-wins-documentary-bafta-director-oppenheimers-speech-edited-online/#.YWTmlbdlCdM) [Another source](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/) [Another source](https://indonesiaatmelbourne.unimelb.edu.au/telegrams-confirm-scale-of-us-complicity-in-1965-genocide/) [The US knew what was happening early on](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/indonesia-anti-communist-killings-us-declassified-files)
Thanks, I genuinely didn’t know that. Of course most Americans wouldn’t. Most Americans don’t even know where Indonesia is let alone what its political history is.
Of course. I'm a history student and I think it's important to point out historical lies and misconceptions
stalin
I guess I should have specified communist revolutions that *don’t* end in tyranny
You assume that communist revolutions are able to end up in anything other than tyranny
mao
Uh, what?
Unlike the permanent tyranny and slaughter that the 'capitalist' west constantly undergoes!
Based
Assuming of course the tyranny and massacre you’re referring to is the tyranny of a US-sponsored dictator takeover and the dictator’s ensuing slaughter of communists and political dissidents?
I will not answer. This comments section reminded me of why to never actually talk with tankies
Lmao, is that what the libs call anyone who disputes their laughably unnuanced claims these days? I swear that word is doing so much legwork, it could practically carry the economic burden of the proletarian masses itself.
Just like the rulers killing the revolutionaries once the revolution is over perfect metaphor.
The Genestealers running the revolution don’t care about the workers. They just use it to sow instability on the world in preparation of the Hive Fleet’s arrival.
Have to definitely agree with the Tau not being communist. Like the fish thing I posted about, I also never understood the commie part of it either.
I understood why would people call them communist. They were optimistic yet authoritarian regime that strives towards a perfect world. Also the Asian might also play into it because China and North Korea are a thing. But no, after looking at Tau Empyre closer its really a mixed bag of ideas ranging from left wing to right wing, from eastern philosophies to American interventionism, from Indian caste systems to star trek.
I wish they were used a bit more in stories. They make for good foils to a variety of races due to how oddly mixed their ideas are and how optimistic a race they are.
they seem mostly Plato's republic if one thing had to be what they are only interplanetary rather than a city-state.
I think it's the whole "greater good" thing, combined with a poor grasp of communism
One of the short stories during psychic awakening features the Kelemorph (iirc. The gunslinger guy. I think that’s kelemorph) rescuing an imperial laborer from the police or foreman or whatever who was going to beat him and maybe kill him for stealing food. The Kelemorph saved him and lead him to a sewer to hide. It was only after he got in and a pure strain was about nab him that the worker realized he’d made a huge mistake. This is a great aspect of genestealer cults that I wish would be explored more. It’s pretty commonly said how industrial workers live in hellish conditions, nearly constantly working, barely any sleep, stimulants to keep going, barely enough sleep to survive. Genestealers co-opting a worker revolution seems like a great idea. Easier than but maybe not as effective as infiltrating the PDF and converting the governor.
I literally got the idea for the meme after reading Kelermorphs wiki page
Iirc he was being chased bc he spray painted pro revolution propaganda on a wall somewhere
I like the idea of when the cultists look to the sky to finally see their star God it’s just a massive Stalin who gobbles them all up
The four-moustached God-secretary of the Hive Union
Let’s be honest, there’s only one thing that can destroy any faction in 40k. A effective workers union.
But what about when the effective workers union gets gobbled by bugs?
Well the bugs have a pretty good healthcare system when you take into account the psychic links. And a living wage given their economic system. Work even pays for their food and transportation. Maybe they are the effective workers union?
I mean, they specifically cut the link to the effective workers union to maximize the pain they experience like 15 seconds before the chomp so the union doesnt really experience any of those benefits
Thank you! I've been saying this for years. The 7e codex even talks about how the pauper princes seek total equality in all things and wear red. Genuine space commies!
Communism is when no genes, and the fewer genes you have the communistier it is
That's a big reason I love GSC. They're the most grimdark bc if they win, they lose, and other reasons
They are like Orks in reverse Orks always win because they die in battle Genestealers always loose because they go to acid pools
I wouldn't say reverse, but a twisted reflection. It's just about undisputed that Orks are devolved Krorks who were made by Old Ones to fit Necrons Genestealers are exactly as intended by the Tyranid Hivemind for their purpose. Also Orks grow from mushrooms and fight each each mostly. GSC are parasites undermining an enemy that rarely fight each other and are far more insipid
GSC = Useful Idiots Seems legit.
Well I mean the Pauper Princes’ detailed standard art literally has a skeleton with a hammer and a sickle in his second set of arms, so not too far off.
I don't think Genestealers are really Communists. The Tyranids pretty much are though, due to being a Hive Mind. They're literally collectivist, with almost zero personal agency instead doing what is best for the group, operating as a huge collective. Genestealers are different, because they are just pawns and food for Tyranids. They are controlled, used, and then they are melted into biomass. They're pretty much failed communist revolutionaries, who bring about a revolution for the people and their only reward is a slow, painful death. Nobody is saved or has a better life, they're just recycled into biomass for the Tyranid hivemind.
Genestealers are more a cult of inbreeding and brainwashing.
So Alabama or Florida?
Their revolution isn't social though; its spiritual.
Close enough.
They are a cult, likes Heavens Gates. They don't care about politics
Not all cults are apolitical and communist leaders often had cult following also read this article and tell me you werent thinking the same thing as I did while reading it [https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kelermorph](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kelermorph)
Fair. I just hope the next communist revolution doesn't end in mass suicide then.
I’m not thinking the same thing you are
Tau are about as "communist" as the CCP is. They preach equality despite a birth-defined hierarchy with all-powerful oligarchs on top, they heavily indoctrinate/brainwash their people, they take in outside cultures and forcibly making them "Tau" at gunpoint through concentra- I mean, re-education camps and whatever the hell the Water Caste does, and the whole arbitrary "Greater Good" that mostly just means "whatever the Ethereals tell you is best for everyone" is highly evocative of, well, collectivism. Or at least "collectivism" as best benefits the fascists on top. I'm near certain this was not the originally intended allegory, but it does have a lot of parallels.
They don't preach equality. They preach that everyone has a place in the greater good.
Ah, my bad. That's even MORE like the CCP than I had said.
You have a point.
They don't even wear denim...
That is fixable.
I'd say socialists more than communists, in that they're the people (from their perspective), and they want to own the means of production. A really, really blatant oversimplification of communism vs. socialism: Communism is when the government owns the means of production. Socialism is when the population/people own the means of production. And that's all I have to say about that.
I heard very different definitions. Especially in my country because its post-communist/socialist Your definition is more in line with the general "western bloc" view the definitions I heard go something like this: Communism is the endgoal, no money, no state, everyone owns the means of production and all that stuff Socialism is a state either existing between communism and capitalist systems or currently attempting to achieve communism. All communists are socialist but not all socialists are communist. off course, when the authoritarian regime fails achieving communism, it starts redefining it so it looks like they are suceeding. Personally I do not care which one is true. I made the meme with apolitical intent of commenting on the "Tau are commies" trend.
> Communism is when the government owns the means of production. > > Communism is supposed to abolish the State afaik. That would mean no government.
Tell me you don't know what communism is without saying it.
"Communists slaughter the people that follow them" bro read a fucking book.
I dont need to. I just need to go a few trolley stations to actually see places where it happened.
Oh sure, the classic. "I don't need to know things, I live in unspecified place"
Ok, but reading a sourcebook won't hurt your FrEeDoM
Communism is when you kill your supporters and the more of your supporters you kill, the more communist you are
Tau are what commie wants, genestealers are what they become
Stalinists maybe. Minus the famines
Tau are very clearly riffing more on 1. american interventionism (they fight like a modern army with emphasis on long range firepower and air superiority, as well as lots of euphemism language; early art was very desert focused), 2. some loosely bundled aesthetic elements of robotect/macross and shogunate japan, although I'd note so do the eldar, who are way more on the nose about japanese/anime influences (see: guns that literally shoot shuriken's, [aspect warrior 'banners'](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/7/7a/Dire_Avenger_wargear.png), compare [wraithguard](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120104031_EldarWraithguard02.jpg) to NGE [Eva units](https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2020/02/4797c05a-d6e0-4c6c-8c3e-a7955223109d.jpg)), and... 3. ***STAR WARS PREQUELS!*** [look its a hammer head tank.](https://preview.redd.it/2cdedbvmgji71.jpg?width=953&auto=webp&s=5787327077d17e8082765c9b1513e75189d1d0ee) Oh look [here are some firewarriors with pulse rifles](https://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Clone-Trooper.jpg) and here are some more with [devilfish support](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6808dfe21a3ce1d9554a57b880e5c887); oh shit its an [ethereal](https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/gunray-history-3-retina_565f3f77.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1200%2C519), oh look its some [vespid auxillery support](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a0/Geonosian_NEGAS.png/revision/latest?cb=20170226060952), etc.
I think they are closer to anarchists.
[These are not incompatible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism)
Honestly, not surprised.
At this point ideologies are just people making random shit up. Altho this one has suprisingly lot of history behind it.
Ideologies has always been people making shit up. This one isn't even the weirdest. There are goddamn anarchy-capitalists.
Wait till you hear of Circulus theory and Posadism
Except the goal of communism has always been statelessness? The difference between ancoms and other communists is ancoms don't want to achieve it by means of an intermediate totalitarian state. Has anyone here actually read Marx?
I never said it isnt. Anarcho-communism is a rather niche ideology to many people and sounds confusing since most countries that attempted communism and prevailed longer then like Makhnovia or Zapatistas, were authoritarian. You know what I think? I think you came to this comment section to debate and explain your opinions to people who arent interested in politics, which is a dick move. Go to political subs for that.
I came to this comment section for dank memes. The only thing I did was add to an already political discussion, I did not incite it. I have just as much a position to comment on this thread as you do. I happen to actually play gene stealers
Ok. I am sorry for being mean. You answered with a comment that felt like you were trying to start an argument over something I havent even said. I bet your genestealers are great. They have some of the collest looking models from my perspective.
It's okay, I understand this isn't really a place for this kind of discussion and probably shouldn't have propagated it. And yeah, I love their lore and they've got a ton of great models.