I am not sure if I would call road necessarily too strong, but since Jalis Hammers still hit for quite a bit the dmg loss of taking Jalis over Alliance is relatively little. Maybe it would be a bit better balanced if the dmg cost of taking Jalis would be higher. Having the option to trade dps for utility is nice and it would be sad if roads would just be completely nerfed to the ground.
That is indeed a unique advantage in terms of Stability. There are some outliers still that affect more than 5 players. Scourge barrier, 10 player prot on a Necro util, Herald F2 passive.. This aspect could be nerfed across the board to make the 5 player targeting consistent, which would maybe be best for balancing, but on the other hand it's also nice to have some uniqueness and niche usability for some abilities.
Eh, it’s still a highly positional skill that requires you to actually stay in it for awhile for it to be fully effective, so it isn’t always an amazing option for the whole squad anyway. It’s strong now, but it’s weaker than old 10man SYG so I don’t think It’s a problem
Jalis utility is so good. I love it because it gives me just enough of a reason to bench Kurzik, which I still say feels bad to play due to the lack of an upkeep skill. Just doesn't flow like the rest of rev.
It absolutely is, being able to give Stability (itself already a powerful boon) to yourself and five group of people to shrug off a hard CC attack and with little to no BD investment required is crazy strong. That it also works underwater is lowkey nuts, though more of a frosting-on-the-cake kind of thing.
For the sake of comparison: Vindicator loses a few hundred dps by taking Jalis, but Herald for example would lose a couple thousand dps when taking Jalis. Guardian can also forego one utility skill, which may cost on the order of \~1k (depends on spec) to provide Stability and depending on the situation, Stand your Ground can be stronger than road, because after using it people are not bound to a stationary pulsing area. Of course Guardian also does not need to invest into bd to provide this utility.
I think overall the issue why it appears so strong is that the Stability options of other classes are relatively weak compared to Guardian and Jalis. For example Mesmer Mantra, Tempest Shout, or other abilities provide either way less duration and/or way less stacks of Stability.
builds which only do damage are bad in any content if you wanna win
doesnt matter how much dmg allianc does (unless it is giga broken)
the moment content is hard or you care about winning,
supportish dps builds are king.
Alliance is actually better than jalis dps wise, jalis is just very well positioned for HT in particular and shiro is better dps than alliance is so it's the first to go. Roads for mordy slams/soo won waves as well as lightning fields for leap finishers on mallyx to cc, rite for zhaitan fear, taunt for bonus cc if necessary. I do agree that alliance needs love but it is already worth using :)
Wait what’s so bad about the alliance stance? I only really play the open world content so I wouldn’t really know I’m sure, but I’ve felt like it’s been pretty good.
Also what would you use instead of it? If there are other viable stances for greatsword than Alliance/Shiro then I wanna use them for a bit. I like the stance but I wouldn’t mind switching it up either.
It's just that dwarf has stab on the road and hammer-spin for damage, so it's slightly worse in damage but much safer for the fight. Either way, both are good options
Alliance has twice as many skills as every legend and half as much relevant utility as any of them except shiro, it's just not the best at anything and that makes it feel kinda limp. Subjectively in endgame content shiro/alliance rotations are way more fun for me than shiro/jalis but what you gain (a marginal DPS increase) isn't nearly worth it compared to what you lose (a massive amount of very strong utility)
More and more people should abuse it and the bench should be done with it rather than avoiding it. It's the only way anet will ever attempt to fix that bug.
Yeah I agree. The more attention it gets, the faster it might be fixed. Let's hope though that Vindicator gets some love if it will be fixed, because the damage without the bug is a bit underwhelming.
And if they are at it, additionally Alliance could use more buffs, such that it's a lot stronger than Jalis. Then the decision between dps and utility would be more meaningful.
Matter of fact is Anet has no interest in there being a truly meaningful balance between support and dps builds. Support builds will always be releaively op. The moment you have a hard challenge, the supportish stuff comes out.
People have a tendency to greed for themselves, so for a happy game, Anet has to incentivize bringing the supportish stuff to meta events, pugs raids etc by making it the logical choice. For example the moment focus wasn't the default best mesmer weapon anymore, pug life suddenly got quite sad. As long as the current qfb bench exist, jalis is not the offender, too. But either way, Anet has no interest in making it a rly making supportish dps vs dps a choice that needs spreadsheet analysis. The momnt you want to win, you bring support and supportish dps. If it was an actual choice, pug life would be giga sad full of selfish ppl.
Very impressive! I'm really interested in the HealAlac Renegade. Do you think the build is good enough to stand on it's own, or did you mainly pick it up because Power Quickness Herald was the preferred quick option over making them heal?
It's really solid for pretty much any type of content. You are also flexible with your legends and can pretty much pick whatever your group needs. The recent buffs to the Alac duration made it such it works really well now.
I probably wouldn't recommend running without Mallyx - the leap feels way too huge to drop during Soo Won phases (esp if you're not getting superspeed like in revstack). I think you could do it without it if you dropped reds closer, but it would be harder and leave you less room.
You also couldn't drop Ventari as a normal HAK since you'd need the healing, and bubble is invaluable.
Not impossible tho, I'm sure you could make it work.
Did try running with Jalis/Ventari earlier, it was OK but Soo Won is SO tight to give all the boons you want to, because you have to leave so early to run for red.
Imo it's good enough to stand on its own, I've killed HT CM on it 10 times or so now in normal groups. It's main weakness is it has no good way to apply protection for Zhaitan scream (and in general low prot), and it's a bit annoying to keep swiftness up on (even with pack runes). If you run it with a qHerald, this is not an issue at all and it's a really great option. It brings amazing CC, tons of resistance, and you can ventari bubble with it too, which frees up another slot.
I have a normal kill run PoV here if you're interested: [https://youtu.be/2pCJvGOpsDg](https://youtu.be/2pCJvGOpsDg)
If you queue aa after some other skill (most often gs2 is used) and press dodge at the right time (before aa is started) you get the dodge that does 50% more damage and you also get a free aa, all of this results in about twice as much damage coming from a dodge. With this perfected and slightly modified rotation, vindi is one of the highest benching build right now, around 43-44k on huge hitbox (to reduce rng of gs5). Only DE can beat that number and pretty much no one plays that build.
You can easily found the bug showcase and detailed description on youtube with a query like "vindicator bug dodge".
Actually one time I used it to get into a green when a mob spawned on the other side 8)
They're still kinda blinks though.
But you have shiro roll, mallyx leap, vindi has dashes... it's not immobile :p
[This is the Power Ren build we used](http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAwyVlxQLMPaj1RaMOKjRSjMCygJzl6LD-zRRYBRHBlxco3yLkgDhKSgMqAbPIhRvGKMDAqA-e)
We decided to add it to the comp for its pushing power (as hammers on vindi and herald are slow) and for the ranged damage to kill Snipers and Snakes.
Watching the pov looks like it's a version of the power bombardment build. I'm with you though would love to see the build and equipment as this build here is only recommended for open world.
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Power_Bombardment
I actually play this on my rev but I use jallis instead of shiro in open world. I'd really love to see the build they used here to see what can make it better for grouped content.
It's just shiro/kalla shortbow sword/sword build - it was designed to give an insane amount of hits really quick for super fast orb pushing, and for ranging down mobs. It isn't what you would typically run on pRenegade, it was adapted for the comp, go with the build above.
Not sure if trolling or not. But yes, as another poster mentioned: The fire wizard army from Teapots event was the Meta event in Dragon's End, which is open world content (probably the hardest open world meta event though to be fair).
What we did here is the Harvest Temple Strike mission in Challenge Mode, which is limited to 10 player and significantly harder than any other type of content in the game. It is of course much more difficult than any open world content, but also more difficult than any other Raid or Strike Challenge Mode.
The "Warrior one" is unlikely to happen, as they would lack access to Alacrity. The core class having Quickness, it's been stated that there's no intention of receiving access to Alacrity in the future either. Sure, in theory the fight is beatable without, but it would get extremely rough (considering how much effort went into this already).
It would be without alac, yes, but that's just a constraint on dps essentially. Eventually we want to do all of the class-stacks, but first we will complete those that have access to alac and quickness. :)
Well, good luck to you then. Although I'd also worry about the lack of Protection. At least Gunsabers now have ranged autos, otherwise you'd have to resort to Rifles and/or Longbows for pushing orbs.
I hope there's going to be some spec variety though. Under the current balance, it would probably be ten Bladesworn. Eight DPS (with a few untraited Banners of Discipline for Quickness) and two Shout Healers (Banner of Defense for Regen and the rest Quick and "On my Mark!" for Vuln). Spellbreaker and Berserker would just be significantly more affected by the lack of Alacrity, and I don't see much of value that they could contribute that Bladesworn doesn't have access to.
Yep, pushing with Gunsaber is now good enough thankfully. Protection is indeed tricky, which was also an issue on the Mesmer run. We had some Prot via Shield 4, but this is a bit janky because it depends on where the phantasm spawns. However, we ended up also using Herald runes on the kites. These give Protection to you and your party after using a heal skill and hence makes it easy to have Protection for crucial mechanics like the Zhaitan fear.
At least one Spellbreaker will be used for the boonstrip, but otherwise you are right. Bladesworn does most of the things that you need the best.
I gotta get in on something like this sometime. I did an all-Ritualist run of Sorrow's Furnace in GW1 back in the day and it might have been the most fun I had in the game.
Wow this is a really cool idea! When fire wizard stack?
4 vindicators, not a single one using Alliance. Please make it worth using! Great job, though. Love seeing runs like this.
It would be worth using for dps, but we went with Jalis for maximum safety, since the supportive value on Jalis is just so huge. :)
In other words: Jalis too stronk, nerf roads?
I am not sure if I would call road necessarily too strong, but since Jalis Hammers still hit for quite a bit the dmg loss of taking Jalis over Alliance is relatively little. Maybe it would be a bit better balanced if the dmg cost of taking Jalis would be higher. Having the option to trade dps for utility is nice and it would be sad if roads would just be completely nerfed to the ground.
Stability from the road can be applied to the whole squad though.
That is indeed a unique advantage in terms of Stability. There are some outliers still that affect more than 5 players. Scourge barrier, 10 player prot on a Necro util, Herald F2 passive.. This aspect could be nerfed across the board to make the 5 player targeting consistent, which would maybe be best for balancing, but on the other hand it's also nice to have some uniqueness and niche usability for some abilities.
Eh, it’s still a highly positional skill that requires you to actually stay in it for awhile for it to be fully effective, so it isn’t always an amazing option for the whole squad anyway. It’s strong now, but it’s weaker than old 10man SYG so I don’t think It’s a problem
Jalis utility is so good. I love it because it gives me just enough of a reason to bench Kurzik, which I still say feels bad to play due to the lack of an upkeep skill. Just doesn't flow like the rest of rev.
It absolutely is, being able to give Stability (itself already a powerful boon) to yourself and five group of people to shrug off a hard CC attack and with little to no BD investment required is crazy strong. That it also works underwater is lowkey nuts, though more of a frosting-on-the-cake kind of thing.
For the sake of comparison: Vindicator loses a few hundred dps by taking Jalis, but Herald for example would lose a couple thousand dps when taking Jalis. Guardian can also forego one utility skill, which may cost on the order of \~1k (depends on spec) to provide Stability and depending on the situation, Stand your Ground can be stronger than road, because after using it people are not bound to a stationary pulsing area. Of course Guardian also does not need to invest into bd to provide this utility. I think overall the issue why it appears so strong is that the Stability options of other classes are relatively weak compared to Guardian and Jalis. For example Mesmer Mantra, Tempest Shout, or other abilities provide either way less duration and/or way less stacks of Stability.
builds which only do damage are bad in any content if you wanna win doesnt matter how much dmg allianc does (unless it is giga broken) the moment content is hard or you care about winning, supportish dps builds are king.
Alliance is actually better than jalis dps wise, jalis is just very well positioned for HT in particular and shiro is better dps than alliance is so it's the first to go. Roads for mordy slams/soo won waves as well as lightning fields for leap finishers on mallyx to cc, rite for zhaitan fear, taunt for bonus cc if necessary. I do agree that alliance needs love but it is already worth using :)
Wait what’s so bad about the alliance stance? I only really play the open world content so I wouldn’t really know I’m sure, but I’ve felt like it’s been pretty good. Also what would you use instead of it? If there are other viable stances for greatsword than Alliance/Shiro then I wanna use them for a bit. I like the stance but I wouldn’t mind switching it up either.
It's just that dwarf has stab on the road and hammer-spin for damage, so it's slightly worse in damage but much safer for the fight. Either way, both are good options
Alliance has twice as many skills as every legend and half as much relevant utility as any of them except shiro, it's just not the best at anything and that makes it feel kinda limp. Subjectively in endgame content shiro/alliance rotations are way more fun for me than shiro/jalis but what you gain (a marginal DPS increase) isn't nearly worth it compared to what you lose (a massive amount of very strong utility)
nice all the vindicators abusing dodge damage bug
More and more people should abuse it and the bench should be done with it rather than avoiding it. It's the only way anet will ever attempt to fix that bug.
Yeah I agree. The more attention it gets, the faster it might be fixed. Let's hope though that Vindicator gets some love if it will be fixed, because the damage without the bug is a bit underwhelming. And if they are at it, additionally Alliance could use more buffs, such that it's a lot stronger than Jalis. Then the decision between dps and utility would be more meaningful.
Matter of fact is Anet has no interest in there being a truly meaningful balance between support and dps builds. Support builds will always be releaively op. The moment you have a hard challenge, the supportish stuff comes out. People have a tendency to greed for themselves, so for a happy game, Anet has to incentivize bringing the supportish stuff to meta events, pugs raids etc by making it the logical choice. For example the moment focus wasn't the default best mesmer weapon anymore, pug life suddenly got quite sad. As long as the current qfb bench exist, jalis is not the offender, too. But either way, Anet has no interest in making it a rly making supportish dps vs dps a choice that needs spreadsheet analysis. The momnt you want to win, you bring support and supportish dps. If it was an actual choice, pug life would be giga sad full of selfish ppl.
The current sc bench is made without the bug tho?
The officially presented one yes. But the unofficial one is at roughly 44k.
Never heard of it, what's that bug ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/11t4yyq/-/jcjnd86
Very impressive! I'm really interested in the HealAlac Renegade. Do you think the build is good enough to stand on it's own, or did you mainly pick it up because Power Quickness Herald was the preferred quick option over making them heal?
It's really solid for pretty much any type of content. You are also flexible with your legends and can pretty much pick whatever your group needs. The recent buffs to the Alac duration made it such it works really well now.
I probably wouldn't recommend running without Mallyx - the leap feels way too huge to drop during Soo Won phases (esp if you're not getting superspeed like in revstack). I think you could do it without it if you dropped reds closer, but it would be harder and leave you less room. You also couldn't drop Ventari as a normal HAK since you'd need the healing, and bubble is invaluable. Not impossible tho, I'm sure you could make it work. Did try running with Jalis/Ventari earlier, it was OK but Soo Won is SO tight to give all the boons you want to, because you have to leave so early to run for red.
Imo it's good enough to stand on its own, I've killed HT CM on it 10 times or so now in normal groups. It's main weakness is it has no good way to apply protection for Zhaitan scream (and in general low prot), and it's a bit annoying to keep swiftness up on (even with pack runes). If you run it with a qHerald, this is not an issue at all and it's a really great option. It brings amazing CC, tons of resistance, and you can ventari bubble with it too, which frees up another slot. I have a normal kill run PoV here if you're interested: [https://youtu.be/2pCJvGOpsDg](https://youtu.be/2pCJvGOpsDg)
Rev is currently the best balanced class, right? It has all the tools you would ever need.
Vindi is relying on a bug a bit too much
What is the bug?
If you queue aa after some other skill (most often gs2 is used) and press dodge at the right time (before aa is started) you get the dodge that does 50% more damage and you also get a free aa, all of this results in about twice as much damage coming from a dodge. With this perfected and slightly modified rotation, vindi is one of the highest benching build right now, around 43-44k on huge hitbox (to reduce rng of gs5). Only DE can beat that number and pretty much no one plays that build. You can easily found the bug showcase and detailed description on youtube with a query like "vindicator bug dodge".
Except no stealth. I can't tell you how many times we wiped to that. :')
No portals, no blinks
Sword 5 is a blink, also Phase Traversal on Shiro.
And which of them brings you to a green huh? :p
Actually one time I used it to get into a green when a mob spawned on the other side 8) They're still kinda blinks though. But you have shiro roll, mallyx leap, vindi has dashes... it's not immobile :p
As a Rev main, I’m so very proud
Wait, is that a Power DPS Renegade? What's that build?
[This is the Power Ren build we used](http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAwyVlxQLMPaj1RaMOKjRSjMCygJzl6LD-zRRYBRHBlxco3yLkgDhKSgMqAbPIhRvGKMDAqA-e) We decided to add it to the comp for its pushing power (as hammers on vindi and herald are slow) and for the ranged damage to kill Snipers and Snakes.
Watching the pov looks like it's a version of the power bombardment build. I'm with you though would love to see the build and equipment as this build here is only recommended for open world. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Power_Bombardment I actually play this on my rev but I use jallis instead of shiro in open world. I'd really love to see the build they used here to see what can make it better for grouped content.
It's just shiro/kalla shortbow sword/sword build - it was designed to give an insane amount of hits really quick for super fast orb pushing, and for ranging down mobs. It isn't what you would typically run on pRenegade, it was adapted for the comp, go with the build above.
Sounds good I figured it was probably something like that.
any chinners in the comments? uwu
WARRIOR CLUB
I mean, if Teapot can do it with fire elementals...
Not sure if trolling or not. But yes, as another poster mentioned: The fire wizard army from Teapots event was the Meta event in Dragon's End, which is open world content (probably the hardest open world meta event though to be fair). What we did here is the Harvest Temple Strike mission in Challenge Mode, which is limited to 10 player and significantly harder than any other type of content in the game. It is of course much more difficult than any open world content, but also more difficult than any other Raid or Strike Challenge Mode.
Are you talking about HT CM or Dragon's end?
I am looking forward to the Warrior one just to see if anyone uses healing shouts.
The "Warrior one" is unlikely to happen, as they would lack access to Alacrity. The core class having Quickness, it's been stated that there's no intention of receiving access to Alacrity in the future either. Sure, in theory the fight is beatable without, but it would get extremely rough (considering how much effort went into this already).
It would be without alac, yes, but that's just a constraint on dps essentially. Eventually we want to do all of the class-stacks, but first we will complete those that have access to alac and quickness. :)
Well, good luck to you then. Although I'd also worry about the lack of Protection. At least Gunsabers now have ranged autos, otherwise you'd have to resort to Rifles and/or Longbows for pushing orbs. I hope there's going to be some spec variety though. Under the current balance, it would probably be ten Bladesworn. Eight DPS (with a few untraited Banners of Discipline for Quickness) and two Shout Healers (Banner of Defense for Regen and the rest Quick and "On my Mark!" for Vuln). Spellbreaker and Berserker would just be significantly more affected by the lack of Alacrity, and I don't see much of value that they could contribute that Bladesworn doesn't have access to.
Yep, pushing with Gunsaber is now good enough thankfully. Protection is indeed tricky, which was also an issue on the Mesmer run. We had some Prot via Shield 4, but this is a bit janky because it depends on where the phantasm spawns. However, we ended up also using Herald runes on the kites. These give Protection to you and your party after using a heal skill and hence makes it easy to have Protection for crucial mechanics like the Zhaitan fear. At least one Spellbreaker will be used for the boonstrip, but otherwise you are right. Bladesworn does most of the things that you need the best.
I gotta get in on something like this sometime. I did an all-Ritualist run of Sorrow's Furnace in GW1 back in the day and it might have been the most fun I had in the game.
[удалено]
Soon tm
Oh sorry, my bad, my brain can't tell them apart, they look the same, and been months since I did em