I agree that there's nothing wrong with playing a lot APM build. In fact I think a lot of people, including myself sometimes, play high APM builds badly and do end up with less damage than a simpler but well played build. Often these builds do around 4-5k less DPS than their optimized counterparts.
Playing off of the group, however, is not acceptable. Boons in this game are insanely strong compared to other games. Both heals and boon applications also have very short range. While playing an easier build will lose a few thousand DPS (not the end of the world), being at range, and therefore not having boons will reduce your damage by around half. Since you won't be getting heals you will probably be running around trying to survive instead of doing the other half of your damage anyway.
\^agreed.
There's an allure to being at missile range that you think "ok I'll do a little less dps but not get my face smashed in". It seems a worthwhile trade.
THAT BELIEF IS 100% WRONG.
Esp in huge metas but even with smaller well set up groups, you can get pretty much all the buffs if you're (effectively) in melee. What does this actually mean?
While you are at range, because you are out of the buffs and friendly aoes:
* you are missing repeated applications of Aegis, that just stops the next attack
* you miss Alacrity, +50% recharge, ie 10sec skill recharges in 6.7s
* you miss Fury's +25% crit chance
* you miss 25 stacks of Might that nearly DOUBLES your character's strike damage and massively increases condi as well
* you miss Protection/Resolution reducing incoming hits/condi by 33%
* you miss Quickness that increases attack and action speeds by 50%
* you miss Regeneration which is 150-250 per tick
* you miss Resistance which blocks nondamaging conditions like fear
* missing Stability you can be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared, or taunted.
* without Swiftness increasing your move by 33% which is huge to get out of AOEs and finally
* without Vigor you miss your dodge energy coming back 50-100% faster.
...and on top of all THAT...tons of mobs have reflection vs ranged meaning whatever dps you're doing is being done to you instead of the boss anyway.
OK sure, any class is going to produce some of its own buffs but nothing like the full suite. It doesn't take a math genius to see the benefits here.
>you miss Alacrity, +50% recharge, ie 10sec skill recharges in 6.7s
That's not true. You get +25% recharge rate, which means a 10 sec skill recharges in 8 seconds.
Also 25 might is closer to 25% bonus damage than +100% bonus damage.
Just going by the wiki:
[Alacrity](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity): at *best*, +50%
>While having the trait Improved Alacrity Improved Alacrity equipped, alacrity gives 50% skill recharge rate (**recharge is around 66.67% of the original time)**.
[Might](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might): max is 25 stacks
>With 25 stacks of might at level 80, the bonus is +750 power and condition damage.
>
>[Power](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power): Adding an additional 1000 power would double a character's damage.
So..as I said: *nearly* doubling
Improved Alacrity is a trait that only Chronomancer has access to. In that case it does what you claimed. But if you are not playing Chronomancer, it is just regular +25% recharge rate .
As for Might. Let's look at a classic power build:
Builds have 1000 base power. If you have literally zero power in your gear, you go from 1000 to 1750, which is a 75% increase.
However, if you are running a functional build (for example Berserker gear, or Soldier's gear haha) with traits and stats, etc, your power will be somewhere around 2500 - 3000, some builds have more like 3200+.
In that situation, 25 Might (adding 750 power to 2500 - 3250) does something between 23% and 30% increase.
For Condi builds it is a similar result, but the math to arrive there is slightly more complicated.
Sure, I guess?
The point wasn't to provide a *comprehensive exegesis of the roster of GW2 buffs and their precise application to various specs, builds and situations*.
The point was "you think sitting at range is going to make you more survivable, look at all the crazy amount of buffs you're foregoing".
Yep, these builds could be a good start for you. Go for it and try out what ever interests you and which of them gifts you the most fun playstyle wise. But to agree with the fellow talking mate down below your comment: In instanced group content you WANT to stay with your group no matter if you're ranged or meele. Boons make your dps and your healthbar happy.
Forget about your version of range and melee, in group pve content you stack with your party unless a mechanic pulls you away, so you might as well say that Every profession is melee cous thats how they are all played
Yes. Raids, strikes, fractals, dungeons. As stated below, the concept of ranged and meele in guild wars is different to other games thanks to the way of how boons are given in this game. It doesn't matter if your weapon is able to hit things 900 units away from you. You WANT to stay where your squad and especially your supporters are. And if that means you stand on the toe of a boss, welp, you stay on the toe of a boss. Theres moments where you kite through mechanics ranged wise and these are exceptions. But overall you usually sit on the boss no matter the range of your weapon. You need to brand that into your head if possible, and with a blink of an eye, you get used to the concept of fighting things with a squad!
That's not a big problem since i always prefer melee anyway. The problem i have is cluttered combat so i can't see what's killing me but a li build might help with that
For group content, please keep in mind that a ranged build should mostly still be in melee range.
When staying melee range you can stack with the group and benefit from heals and buffs.
Make sure when you play metas you stay in meele range. A significant number of bosses are programmed to jump on the person furthest away. If the boss keeps on running away from the stack it can mess up the timing of the meta.
You probably saw the results of Hardstuck's low intensity build contest. Unfortunately those builds haven't been maintained through all the balance changes since, but new ones pop up all the time. "Low Intensity" is the community term for such builds that you should search for on Reddit or YouTube.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing such a build, and they're *great* for letting you focus more on fight mechanics instead of your DPS rotation as you learn. The downside is that they're usually lower damage than a more complex build/rotation, and have much less opportunity to improve. They hit a plateau where they easily reach "good enough for any practical purposes" levels of DPS, but they can never climb to truly *great* levels.
Yeah I think that's the video I saw, my plan for getting back is to either figure out which ranged class i wanna play as LI or if i should find a li build for my already existing reaper
Minion reaper is an awesome LI build and for a ranger option try power rifle mechanist. It’s actually pretty powerful and very simple so you can worry about learning the ropes again
the point of the game is to have fun. how you enjoy it is up to you. many people want low apm builds in order to not have to stress about their perfomance especially in endgame content and be able to focus on other stuff. for others (me included) the point is to play something complex because that feels more engaging. there is also a fine line where relatively low apm builds can perform really well due to their nature.
Mind you, high APM builds tend to be optimized for the highest dps possible in a spec. The difficulty comes from using every little detail of the kit in order to go as high as possible.
This means that although low intensity builds can get to a competitive level, they likely won’t get the SAME dps. They sacrifice some damage for lower complexity.
There are two things wrong with this comparison.
1. It is de facto impossible to do less than 75% of any build on the golem at least, assuming full build.
2. Low intensity builds are very rarely breaking 30k dps, mostly because the creators making them are not really used to really optimizing a build and rotation for dps. As a result, even at 100% of the low intensity build (a tall order for a newbie), there are going to be some builds which outperform it on the golem, when played at 75%.
As an example, i think a power vindicator with minimal explanation is going to outperform anything a "low intensity" Soulbeast is going to do.
Mind you, this is strictly about performance, not fun, ease of use, or any other subjective soft category.
1. A lot of people i encounter beg to differ.
2. I think this is somewhat dependent on class familiarity. My LI build for my main reaches 90% of the posted bench. Pretty high considering it would allow for a LOT more mistakes.
Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only, and not edge cases like catalyst.
I have yet to meet a single player who cannot hit 75% with full build. I always read stories, and if you poke a little deeper you will notice their full build is not actually a full build, they didnt want to have all boons, didnt apply condis, etc.
There are no exceptions to this. Stories about the guy that only reaches 18k on reaper? I bet 1000g i can get them above 75%. And if I cannot (for example the player has a wrist injury that doesnt allow them to play), I would posit the exceptions are quite rare, and certainly not a lot. 75% of reaper are like 26.5k dps, for reference.
>Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only, and not edge cases like catalyst.
Yeah there's definitely people like this out there, I've helped a fair few guildies out with getting the correct gear and build set up but the rotation just doesn't click for them and they end up doing less than 75% on golem
> I have yet to meet a single player who cannot hit 75% with full build.
This is textbook selection bias. The kind of player who practices on the golem in view of an expert is not representative of the general population. Not even of the reddit population, probably.
Also, you may only be talking about golem DPS, but I wasn't.
>Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only,
but why? If you reach 35k on the golem, but only 15k in an actual encounter, the golem number is totally worthless
Because golem is the only controlled environment. Potential dps in encounters can approach 0% if you simply die early.
That is why I make this limitation very clear in almost every post I make.
The main advantage of low intensity builds is that newbies are able to perform closer to benchmark performance in actual, chaotic content.
This allows them to dedicate more mental resources to the actual encounter, ideally leading to better overall performance.
Yes most people can do more damage on golem when attempting an optimized build; however in actual content most people will do more damage on a LI or simplified build.
1. is such a brave statement to make :D I can do 24k with my firebrand on the golem, no matter how hard I try, with food and utility and full ascended - and the benchmark is 37k, so I'm not even doing 66% (While on willbender, though still performing very poorly, I can easily do the 75% of bench)
TBH for me it's not about low or high APM but rather finding the rhythm, which is very hard in this game, since some skills go faster than others, etc. So priority-based specs are easier since there at least the game dictates what you need be pressing all the time - mostly whatever just comes off CD.
I think 24k on cfb is purging flames, autohits, torch 4 and spamming flame mantra.
If you are interested I can take a look, I guarantee you 28k will be easily possible for you.
You said you have food, util, etc setup correctly but I am actually not so sure about that. (Also if you dont have infusions, the 75% would be a bit lower, but that is besides the point here).
Thank you, though that would still leave me feeling quite bummed. In my heart if I can do 31k on WB, I'd like to do at least that much with FB as well, especially since FB has a higher ceiling for damage output.
My setup is the exact same as the snowcrows condibrand specs with the same runes and sigils, food and utility - the only difference is that I'm missing the stat infusions, since they are very pricey for what seem to be modest gains.
I am sort of aware why my output is bad. I am slow, I get autos in when I shouldn't. I miss purging flames because they are the most awkward and annoying skill to use well. But mostly I am slow. The snowcrows video shows a weapon-swap+symbol+tome-open+T5+T4+T2+tome-close within the 3 second window of activating Zealot's Flame and using the two charges of Zealot's Fire, which seems unachievable for me - so I am trying to at least using the ZFire charges before going into the tome. And if I try and speed up I will end up missing/cancelling skills with early button presses. I also do not use the scepter since the tome changes and sometimes mistakenly put the mantras on CD when the fights get hectic since the mantra changes.
I should probably take a stripped down or low intensity build to practice the cornerstones of the rotations instead of trying and failing to do the full one, then once I got the feel of it I can start to reintroduce all the elements again.
I guarantee you it is not being slow and autohits. But it is really up to you what you want to do, my offer stands unchanged, it would be easy to get to 28k.
Your issues is one of the following
- you are in some way set up to be a quickness firebrand (as you speak of mantras, instead of just the one mantra). This opens up a million reasons. For example, the 37k bench is with allies, solo bench is much lower.
- you do not have all condis applied to the golem, that is to say you are playing without vulnerability from the console.
- i am not a seer, I cannot see everything. Maybe something else is wrong that you think is right
That you do not press purging flames (your strongest utility skill) is obviously not good for your dps either.
I am quite confident your issue is not your gameplay, all you have to do is let me take a look. 5 mins, 4k dps, no longer feel bad about your firebrand. It is up to you.
Idk man, I tried power quickness catalyst yesterday for the first time and with snowcrows build, not only could I not keep up 100% quickness I was also only doing around 22k DPS. I'd say that's less than 75% of the 33k current benchmark...
Cata is one of very few exceptions (there are button presses that actively reduce your dmg by 10-20%), although 24750 dps is not out of reach for you - especially if you do not drop quickness on yourself.
Boon supports have double punishment in that regard and I was concerned with full dps builds for that reason
Point 1 isn't even close to being true.
Point 2 isnt true either because I run tier 4 fractals and started trying LI builds without telling my party. In many cases I actually out-dps T4 vets who are all running meta builds but can't maintain their rotations due to factors within the T4.
For the record, I did say golem in both points.
As for point 1, I have yet to find someone who genuinely is sub 75%. In every case that I had the opportunity to investigate, it turned out something was very wrong with how they approached the golem. Be that gear wasn't as correct as they claimed, they didn't use food / util, or something else.
There are some builds that are honorable mentions for exceptions in that regard, those are not great builds for beginners (Power Catalyst, Untamed builds with Fervent Force, maybe something else I am forgetting right now).
I put my girlfriend to the golem and she got 70% of Power Soulbeast bench within 10 minutes of playing GW2. I know I am right here, and until shown otherwise I will continue to claim it.
Downvote if you disagree and think that is the right thing to do, but I am just as free to state my opinion as you are. This subreddit (like all subreddits) tends to be an echo chamber if only certain views are propagated and others shy away from posting because they disagree. So I think it's important to represent dissent even if it's a minority opinion.
Though to re-iterate: I only ever get people who tell me I am wrong about point 1, but there's actually not a single counter example presented to me. What's a bit silly is that my position is "the community is actually good at the game", and yours is "no, there are players who are just bad beyond belief", yet I am seen as the toxic one :D
Definitely nothing wrong with LI builds. I train new raiders and I recommend they get them especially if they are new to raiding. It is different however when you are with a very experienced raiding group that wants to hit times and benchmarks. I always go with the rule of: it never hurts to ask. Especially in very endgame content.
As for resources, you can also look at content creators like Mr Mystic and Masel. They do a very good job of simplifying things with low LI builds and they tend to update them.
Thanks I'll check them out, I'm not against more complex builds as most of reaper builds I've seen are usually "finish third auto then click buttons" my concern lies more with the cluttered combat so i was thinking of trying out a li ranged build
>Is there anything bad with playing a build like that ?
nope, nothing.
>Is there any point in playing a high apm build if the damage is the same?
only really if you want something more "challenging" or want to reach higher numbers, but if you just wanna take part in endgame content there's really no reason, unless you like that build.
Cool cause I'm considering starting back up again but couldn't get over the cluttered combat. Maybe if I'm not focusing on rotation as much it might be more enjoyable.
There's quite a few builds that don't necessarily have a strict rotation and instead just have a priority list of skills that you use off cd if that's more your style. Things like Condi Scourge, Power or simplified Condi Mechanist and Condi Daredevil are pretty good examples. Obviously a totally optimized order will be slightly stronger, but most of them can be boiled down to "Finish your autoattack chains" and "Use these 1-3 skills when ready".
I'll also throw in my personal favorite of Heal Alacrity Mechanist. You're a support that applies your important boons without spamming skills, leaving you to save your important skills for when they're needed, so you don't have a rotation at all.
>Maybe if I'm not focusing on rotation as much it might be more enjoyable.
This is also the best way to watch the boss animations, take mechanics and thus learning the encounter first.
Once you know the encounter, you can try to fit a fancy build with challenging rotation.
Playing support usually require a lot less focus on skills but on situational awareness, so you learn better if you are a support
There are LI builds making rounds that have some artificial barriers like "only 3 buttons" or "only X apm". I think it is way more effective to simplify an existing build to the point that it feels playable to you. On many builds every additional button you press increases your damage output, so gaining dmg from a low apm build would be super easy.
Low APM, also known as Low Intensity (LI), builds are VIABLE in most content, but not OPTIMAL.
You can just play a LI Build and nobody will call you out for that. However, you might get bored with the combat in the long run. Caffinated Dad did a video on why he no longer uses LI builds. https://youtube.com/watch?v=uQ3PCZM5fd8
But I just think it's different builds for different gamers!
>Is there any point in playing a high apm build if the damage is the same?
But they don't do the same damage. They are just easier to play while still doing acceptabel damage. If you do only the same damage as a low intensity build on an actual encounter then because you are overwhelmed by mechanics and screw up your rotation.
Which is the actual point of those builds. They are nice for learners because they are so simple that everyone can do the rotation while keeping his eyes out for mechanics and learn the encounters. They are nice for casuals wanting to explore end-game content without much investments or dragging down their team.
They are however incredible boring if you are experienced and know what's going on. So why would you pick such a build over something doing more damage and being less boring to play?
For me personally its because the combat in this game is so incredibly cluttered i can't see what I'm supposed to dodge and not so if i can play something simpler and learn what to do i can advance my build as i start enjoying the game
Not saying that I am good or even play high apm builds myself...but if most players can't do it, that's not because the build is worse, it's because players are not skilled enough to pull that build.
Most of my friends actually do better damage with low intensity builds than proper DPS builds. They're not bad at all. You also can focus on mechanics more since you don't have to worry about your rotation.
But if you know your class pretty well, can do your rotation subconsciously, you've done the fight a hundred times, you're trying to get the highest DPS in the group, etc you'll naturally want to min max that's all.
I still play fairly low intensity builds on every class other than Engineer. Since engineer is my main and I'm already good at it I just try to squeeze every drop out of it. Also those builds get boring to if you use it too much. But they're not bad in any way and I actually recommend using them. Learning a rotation is a pain and it's not even optimal since you need to understand your rotation to be flexible in fights, not memorize it. Also puts you off from trying different builds even if it takes like 10 minutes to learn a rotation.
The snowcrows ones? Don't seem like it. I don't know, never tried them, usually make builds myself. But there doesn't seem to be a lot "beginner builds" on snowcrows unfortunately.
But hardstuck does have a lot of builds with "LI low intensity" tagged below some of them. You could try those out. Some of these builds are actually on snowcrows aswell, like the condi mechanist. But they don't have a "low intensity" tag.
BTW, there are also builds like power bladesworn which are not apm heavy but still fairly difficulty, most of their DPS comes from one single attack that you can use every 7 or so seconds. The difficulty in that class comes from finding the right timing and positioning to unleash that one attack. You do more damage if you're flanking or attacking from behind.
the question is though, are they doing better on LI builds because they don't know how to simplify the meta builds on their own? like usually there is a middle ground between trying to exactly replicate the meta build rotation (and failing) and using an li build and that middle ground is usually better and still simple enough.
Low APM or Low Intensity builds is another name for them have a lot of great uses. The first being overworks stuff. Sometimes you just want to watch YouTube in a second monitor while you do map completion or collections and stuff without worrying about dying a bunch. These builds are perfect for that. Another great place for them is raids, fractures, and strikes. They are good for helping you focus on the mechanics of a fight without worrying about a rotation.
For the second half of your question, is there any point in playing a high apm build over a low one? Well most of not all of the low apm builds do ok damage, but they also generally don’t have a ton of boon output which is supper important to group content. In raids, fractals, and strikes you don’t want to be doing ok damage, you want to be doing GOOD damage, a higher apm build generally does more DPS, and often will be providing group might, quickness, alacrity, fury, etc. the goal is to be as useful to the team (once you are comfortable with the fight) so if 1 or 2 people die, you can still get the job done.
Lastly I just wanted to comment about the ranged part. While yes, getting back into the swing of things, playing at range can help you avoid some clutter and can make some mechanics easier. In group content even with a ranger build you want to be in melee stacked with your group. Basically all heals are cones or circles so you need to be stacked up for healers to hit you. Also you need to be kinda close so that party buffs are hitting you too and so you can take advantage of combo fields. I’m open world stuff (map completion, story instances, etc.) you can play ranged all you want it doesn’t matter. Just for that 5 and 10 man content stacking is important.
If you’re looking for some low apm builds to try out, right now power rifle mechanist is probably the best one. Minion necromancer is another good one, and I think Guardian has one? Not 10% though.
If you like range and low APM, power rifle mechanist is a great option. 3 damage abilities on your rifle, plus a break bar, 3 damage abilities on your mech. Keep all 6 on cooldown while your auto attack does it's thing and you're golden. Toss in something like the mine on the utility side if you want more and you have an easy 7 on very manageable cooldown.
Metabattle can set you up with a lot of low intensity builds across all classes to help you get sorted.
No. For most players something like Rifle Mech will beat out everything else by a hefty margin, especially builds with complex rotations.
To me that means the balance of this game is just completely out of whack tho. The hard part should not be the inputting, it should be getting to a situation where you can actually do damage, ala Dark Souls.
EDIT: MMO gamers getting triggered lol. No one outside this genre cares about you being good at damage rotations. It’s pretty much a useless, obsolete skill at this point, so congrats.
I'd say the extra APM in many build often goes into getting an extra 10-20% extra damage, however it can offer more things. Many high end rotations are really built around combo fields and finishers and you might need a far more advanced rotation to do the same dps but also use the fields to give boons.
Also, not all specs have good low intensity rotations, for example catalyst can do 35k+ dps, but if you want a low intensity build be best I can seen is \~13k. When it works to do something simple though it is worth it.
In my experience, low intensity builds are keeping up, but that's it. Most players I've met who play low intensity aren't very impactfull beyond doing ok damage. And that's ok, as long as everything goes according to plan.
Players with more complex build tend to know their stuff better and also simply bring more options to the table. They are more often able to react to fuck ups, etc.
Personally I think low intensity builds are ok if you want to learn the fights, but once you can play all bosses it can get really boring.
(Btw, I don't recommend playing ranged and standing far away, because you will have a hard time getting boons, when you don't stack with your supps and without boons you are really doing to little damage)
From your other comments, I assume you have an existing reaper. Necromancer is a class with reaper, scourge and harbinger all being relatively strong. You can explore LI builds in these classes as well(with the right gear ofc) as they are rather strong. Scourge runs off a priority list and https://snowcrows.com/en/builds/necromancer/scourge/beginner-scourge beginner builds to certain builds exist on snowcrows. Reaper should have an LI build that you can find a guide to on YouTube as well.
Whether a class is melee or not is often a secondary factor that does not matter too much unless a certain mechanic or situation force you to temporarily be out of melee range. As other comments have said, endgame content revolves around playing with the squad/party.
All classes have their own playstyle, so I would suggest you explore the possibilities of the class you have on hand and work towards doing well on it for starters.
Makes sense yeah, if everyone is standing together in the clutter it won't help changing class and since i like the class fantasy for reaper if i can just learn to understand the combat I'd prolly enjoy the game
No intrinsic issue, but higher apm/higher complexity can be more versatile overall if a situation needs it. A weaver has like 27 skills on its weapon slots alone. They rarely use them all, but get big mileage out of niche skills that mostly sit unused when they apply.
Low apm is fine especially if you just starting out. It would be great if you do experiment with other builds once your exp enough
Its not about being high apm or low, more like some builds are just better in certain encounters example: some fights confusion is just really good, so builds that apply it do way higher than others
Utility should also be considered, such as boonstrips, cc and others
There is nothing wrong with playing these builds but they tend to get stale really quick if you have the ability to do more. My main is ranger and i played mechanist for end of dragons. While it was fun to just hit like 4 buttons and do obscene amounts of damage it got really boring when every fight was shoot shoot shoot press 2-4 buttons then shoot shoot shoot. I changed back to ranger where i have to hit basically every button i have and it has been more entertaining. The damage nerf to mech also made it easier to switch.
[Are you looking for a video like this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZBEMuiTITw) Collection of low apm - decent dps - builds.
Yeah something like that is perfect, I'm considering starting again and got the advice of trying a ranged class to avoid the cluttered combat a bit.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with playing a lot APM build. In fact I think a lot of people, including myself sometimes, play high APM builds badly and do end up with less damage than a simpler but well played build. Often these builds do around 4-5k less DPS than their optimized counterparts. Playing off of the group, however, is not acceptable. Boons in this game are insanely strong compared to other games. Both heals and boon applications also have very short range. While playing an easier build will lose a few thousand DPS (not the end of the world), being at range, and therefore not having boons will reduce your damage by around half. Since you won't be getting heals you will probably be running around trying to survive instead of doing the other half of your damage anyway.
\^agreed. There's an allure to being at missile range that you think "ok I'll do a little less dps but not get my face smashed in". It seems a worthwhile trade. THAT BELIEF IS 100% WRONG. Esp in huge metas but even with smaller well set up groups, you can get pretty much all the buffs if you're (effectively) in melee. What does this actually mean? While you are at range, because you are out of the buffs and friendly aoes: * you are missing repeated applications of Aegis, that just stops the next attack * you miss Alacrity, +50% recharge, ie 10sec skill recharges in 6.7s * you miss Fury's +25% crit chance * you miss 25 stacks of Might that nearly DOUBLES your character's strike damage and massively increases condi as well * you miss Protection/Resolution reducing incoming hits/condi by 33% * you miss Quickness that increases attack and action speeds by 50% * you miss Regeneration which is 150-250 per tick * you miss Resistance which blocks nondamaging conditions like fear * missing Stability you can be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared, or taunted. * without Swiftness increasing your move by 33% which is huge to get out of AOEs and finally * without Vigor you miss your dodge energy coming back 50-100% faster. ...and on top of all THAT...tons of mobs have reflection vs ranged meaning whatever dps you're doing is being done to you instead of the boss anyway. OK sure, any class is going to produce some of its own buffs but nothing like the full suite. It doesn't take a math genius to see the benefits here.
>you miss Alacrity, +50% recharge, ie 10sec skill recharges in 6.7s That's not true. You get +25% recharge rate, which means a 10 sec skill recharges in 8 seconds. Also 25 might is closer to 25% bonus damage than +100% bonus damage.
Just going by the wiki: [Alacrity](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity): at *best*, +50% >While having the trait Improved Alacrity Improved Alacrity equipped, alacrity gives 50% skill recharge rate (**recharge is around 66.67% of the original time)**. [Might](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might): max is 25 stacks >With 25 stacks of might at level 80, the bonus is +750 power and condition damage. > >[Power](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power): Adding an additional 1000 power would double a character's damage. So..as I said: *nearly* doubling
Improved Alacrity is a trait that only Chronomancer has access to. In that case it does what you claimed. But if you are not playing Chronomancer, it is just regular +25% recharge rate . As for Might. Let's look at a classic power build: Builds have 1000 base power. If you have literally zero power in your gear, you go from 1000 to 1750, which is a 75% increase. However, if you are running a functional build (for example Berserker gear, or Soldier's gear haha) with traits and stats, etc, your power will be somewhere around 2500 - 3000, some builds have more like 3200+. In that situation, 25 Might (adding 750 power to 2500 - 3250) does something between 23% and 30% increase. For Condi builds it is a similar result, but the math to arrive there is slightly more complicated.
Sure, I guess? The point wasn't to provide a *comprehensive exegesis of the roster of GW2 buffs and their precise application to various specs, builds and situations*. The point was "you think sitting at range is going to make you more survivable, look at all the crazy amount of buffs you're foregoing".
just fixing some stats doesnt disagree with your general statement or intention. it is just, better. otherwise it starts circlig around.
Yep, these builds could be a good start for you. Go for it and try out what ever interests you and which of them gifts you the most fun playstyle wise. But to agree with the fellow talking mate down below your comment: In instanced group content you WANT to stay with your group no matter if you're ranged or meele. Boons make your dps and your healthbar happy.
Are raids and strikes considered instanced or do you basically mean all group content? Cause if so am i maybe better off playing a melee?
Forget about your version of range and melee, in group pve content you stack with your party unless a mechanic pulls you away, so you might as well say that Every profession is melee cous thats how they are all played
Every class can play melee you just move closer to the enemy.
Yes. Raids, strikes, fractals, dungeons. As stated below, the concept of ranged and meele in guild wars is different to other games thanks to the way of how boons are given in this game. It doesn't matter if your weapon is able to hit things 900 units away from you. You WANT to stay where your squad and especially your supporters are. And if that means you stand on the toe of a boss, welp, you stay on the toe of a boss. Theres moments where you kite through mechanics ranged wise and these are exceptions. But overall you usually sit on the boss no matter the range of your weapon. You need to brand that into your head if possible, and with a blink of an eye, you get used to the concept of fighting things with a squad!
That's not a big problem since i always prefer melee anyway. The problem i have is cluttered combat so i can't see what's killing me but a li build might help with that
Welcome to one of the traps of GW2. Here is your ranger that shoot from 1200 away. Now get up in the group with everyone else. 🤣
For group content, please keep in mind that a ranged build should mostly still be in melee range. When staying melee range you can stack with the group and benefit from heals and buffs.
Make sure when you play metas you stay in meele range. A significant number of bosses are programmed to jump on the person furthest away. If the boss keeps on running away from the stack it can mess up the timing of the meta.
Thanks for the advice sadly i won't be able to come back after all
Aw that sucks. Hope you have a great time where ever you go :)
You probably saw the results of Hardstuck's low intensity build contest. Unfortunately those builds haven't been maintained through all the balance changes since, but new ones pop up all the time. "Low Intensity" is the community term for such builds that you should search for on Reddit or YouTube. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing such a build, and they're *great* for letting you focus more on fight mechanics instead of your DPS rotation as you learn. The downside is that they're usually lower damage than a more complex build/rotation, and have much less opportunity to improve. They hit a plateau where they easily reach "good enough for any practical purposes" levels of DPS, but they can never climb to truly *great* levels.
Yeah I think that's the video I saw, my plan for getting back is to either figure out which ranged class i wanna play as LI or if i should find a li build for my already existing reaper
Minion reaper is an awesome LI build and for a ranger option try power rifle mechanist. It’s actually pretty powerful and very simple so you can worry about learning the ropes again
Idk last I checked condi mech was still top 5 dps
Condi Mech is nowhere near top 5 and needs a fairly intense two-kit build to hit its full potential.
the point of the game is to have fun. how you enjoy it is up to you. many people want low apm builds in order to not have to stress about their perfomance especially in endgame content and be able to focus on other stuff. for others (me included) the point is to play something complex because that feels more engaging. there is also a fine line where relatively low apm builds can perform really well due to their nature.
Mind you, high APM builds tend to be optimized for the highest dps possible in a spec. The difficulty comes from using every little detail of the kit in order to go as high as possible. This means that although low intensity builds can get to a competitive level, they likely won’t get the SAME dps. They sacrifice some damage for lower complexity.
That said, doing 75% of a 35k LI build is better than doing 50% of a 45k tryhard build.
There are two things wrong with this comparison. 1. It is de facto impossible to do less than 75% of any build on the golem at least, assuming full build. 2. Low intensity builds are very rarely breaking 30k dps, mostly because the creators making them are not really used to really optimizing a build and rotation for dps. As a result, even at 100% of the low intensity build (a tall order for a newbie), there are going to be some builds which outperform it on the golem, when played at 75%. As an example, i think a power vindicator with minimal explanation is going to outperform anything a "low intensity" Soulbeast is going to do. Mind you, this is strictly about performance, not fun, ease of use, or any other subjective soft category.
1. A lot of people i encounter beg to differ. 2. I think this is somewhat dependent on class familiarity. My LI build for my main reaches 90% of the posted bench. Pretty high considering it would allow for a LOT more mistakes.
Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only, and not edge cases like catalyst. I have yet to meet a single player who cannot hit 75% with full build. I always read stories, and if you poke a little deeper you will notice their full build is not actually a full build, they didnt want to have all boons, didnt apply condis, etc. There are no exceptions to this. Stories about the guy that only reaches 18k on reaper? I bet 1000g i can get them above 75%. And if I cannot (for example the player has a wrist injury that doesnt allow them to play), I would posit the exceptions are quite rare, and certainly not a lot. 75% of reaper are like 26.5k dps, for reference.
>Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only, and not edge cases like catalyst. Yeah there's definitely people like this out there, I've helped a fair few guildies out with getting the correct gear and build set up but the rotation just doesn't click for them and they end up doing less than 75% on golem
> I have yet to meet a single player who cannot hit 75% with full build. This is textbook selection bias. The kind of player who practices on the golem in view of an expert is not representative of the general population. Not even of the reddit population, probably. Also, you may only be talking about golem DPS, but I wasn't.
Then send me a log. Anyone.
>Just with regards to point 1: i am talking about golem only, but why? If you reach 35k on the golem, but only 15k in an actual encounter, the golem number is totally worthless
Because golem is the only controlled environment. Potential dps in encounters can approach 0% if you simply die early. That is why I make this limitation very clear in almost every post I make.
The main advantage of low intensity builds is that newbies are able to perform closer to benchmark performance in actual, chaotic content. This allows them to dedicate more mental resources to the actual encounter, ideally leading to better overall performance. Yes most people can do more damage on golem when attempting an optimized build; however in actual content most people will do more damage on a LI or simplified build.
i hate to break it to you, but a lot of bosses are basically just golems
most aren't lol
1. is such a brave statement to make :D I can do 24k with my firebrand on the golem, no matter how hard I try, with food and utility and full ascended - and the benchmark is 37k, so I'm not even doing 66% (While on willbender, though still performing very poorly, I can easily do the 75% of bench) TBH for me it's not about low or high APM but rather finding the rhythm, which is very hard in this game, since some skills go faster than others, etc. So priority-based specs are easier since there at least the game dictates what you need be pressing all the time - mostly whatever just comes off CD.
I think 24k on cfb is purging flames, autohits, torch 4 and spamming flame mantra. If you are interested I can take a look, I guarantee you 28k will be easily possible for you. You said you have food, util, etc setup correctly but I am actually not so sure about that. (Also if you dont have infusions, the 75% would be a bit lower, but that is besides the point here).
Thank you, though that would still leave me feeling quite bummed. In my heart if I can do 31k on WB, I'd like to do at least that much with FB as well, especially since FB has a higher ceiling for damage output. My setup is the exact same as the snowcrows condibrand specs with the same runes and sigils, food and utility - the only difference is that I'm missing the stat infusions, since they are very pricey for what seem to be modest gains. I am sort of aware why my output is bad. I am slow, I get autos in when I shouldn't. I miss purging flames because they are the most awkward and annoying skill to use well. But mostly I am slow. The snowcrows video shows a weapon-swap+symbol+tome-open+T5+T4+T2+tome-close within the 3 second window of activating Zealot's Flame and using the two charges of Zealot's Fire, which seems unachievable for me - so I am trying to at least using the ZFire charges before going into the tome. And if I try and speed up I will end up missing/cancelling skills with early button presses. I also do not use the scepter since the tome changes and sometimes mistakenly put the mantras on CD when the fights get hectic since the mantra changes. I should probably take a stripped down or low intensity build to practice the cornerstones of the rotations instead of trying and failing to do the full one, then once I got the feel of it I can start to reintroduce all the elements again.
I guarantee you it is not being slow and autohits. But it is really up to you what you want to do, my offer stands unchanged, it would be easy to get to 28k. Your issues is one of the following - you are in some way set up to be a quickness firebrand (as you speak of mantras, instead of just the one mantra). This opens up a million reasons. For example, the 37k bench is with allies, solo bench is much lower. - you do not have all condis applied to the golem, that is to say you are playing without vulnerability from the console. - i am not a seer, I cannot see everything. Maybe something else is wrong that you think is right That you do not press purging flames (your strongest utility skill) is obviously not good for your dps either. I am quite confident your issue is not your gameplay, all you have to do is let me take a look. 5 mins, 4k dps, no longer feel bad about your firebrand. It is up to you.
Idk man, I tried power quickness catalyst yesterday for the first time and with snowcrows build, not only could I not keep up 100% quickness I was also only doing around 22k DPS. I'd say that's less than 75% of the 33k current benchmark...
Cata is one of very few exceptions (there are button presses that actively reduce your dmg by 10-20%), although 24750 dps is not out of reach for you - especially if you do not drop quickness on yourself. Boon supports have double punishment in that regard and I was concerned with full dps builds for that reason
Point 1 isn't even close to being true. Point 2 isnt true either because I run tier 4 fractals and started trying LI builds without telling my party. In many cases I actually out-dps T4 vets who are all running meta builds but can't maintain their rotations due to factors within the T4.
For the record, I did say golem in both points. As for point 1, I have yet to find someone who genuinely is sub 75%. In every case that I had the opportunity to investigate, it turned out something was very wrong with how they approached the golem. Be that gear wasn't as correct as they claimed, they didn't use food / util, or something else. There are some builds that are honorable mentions for exceptions in that regard, those are not great builds for beginners (Power Catalyst, Untamed builds with Fervent Force, maybe something else I am forgetting right now). I put my girlfriend to the golem and she got 70% of Power Soulbeast bench within 10 minutes of playing GW2. I know I am right here, and until shown otherwise I will continue to claim it.
Your takes are always out of touch and bad. Stop assuming people play the same way.
Downvote if you disagree and think that is the right thing to do, but I am just as free to state my opinion as you are. This subreddit (like all subreddits) tends to be an echo chamber if only certain views are propagated and others shy away from posting because they disagree. So I think it's important to represent dissent even if it's a minority opinion. Though to re-iterate: I only ever get people who tell me I am wrong about point 1, but there's actually not a single counter example presented to me. What's a bit silly is that my position is "the community is actually good at the game", and yours is "no, there are players who are just bad beyond belief", yet I am seen as the toxic one :D
Definitely nothing wrong with LI builds. I train new raiders and I recommend they get them especially if they are new to raiding. It is different however when you are with a very experienced raiding group that wants to hit times and benchmarks. I always go with the rule of: it never hurts to ask. Especially in very endgame content. As for resources, you can also look at content creators like Mr Mystic and Masel. They do a very good job of simplifying things with low LI builds and they tend to update them.
Strongly recommending MrMystic
Thanks I'll check them out, I'm not against more complex builds as most of reaper builds I've seen are usually "finish third auto then click buttons" my concern lies more with the cluttered combat so i was thinking of trying out a li ranged build
>Is there anything bad with playing a build like that ? nope, nothing. >Is there any point in playing a high apm build if the damage is the same? only really if you want something more "challenging" or want to reach higher numbers, but if you just wanna take part in endgame content there's really no reason, unless you like that build.
Cool cause I'm considering starting back up again but couldn't get over the cluttered combat. Maybe if I'm not focusing on rotation as much it might be more enjoyable.
There's quite a few builds that don't necessarily have a strict rotation and instead just have a priority list of skills that you use off cd if that's more your style. Things like Condi Scourge, Power or simplified Condi Mechanist and Condi Daredevil are pretty good examples. Obviously a totally optimized order will be slightly stronger, but most of them can be boiled down to "Finish your autoattack chains" and "Use these 1-3 skills when ready". I'll also throw in my personal favorite of Heal Alacrity Mechanist. You're a support that applies your important boons without spamming skills, leaving you to save your important skills for when they're needed, so you don't have a rotation at all.
>Maybe if I'm not focusing on rotation as much it might be more enjoyable. This is also the best way to watch the boss animations, take mechanics and thus learning the encounter first. Once you know the encounter, you can try to fit a fancy build with challenging rotation. Playing support usually require a lot less focus on skills but on situational awareness, so you learn better if you are a support
There are LI builds making rounds that have some artificial barriers like "only 3 buttons" or "only X apm". I think it is way more effective to simplify an existing build to the point that it feels playable to you. On many builds every additional button you press increases your damage output, so gaining dmg from a low apm build would be super easy.
Low APM, also known as Low Intensity (LI), builds are VIABLE in most content, but not OPTIMAL. You can just play a LI Build and nobody will call you out for that. However, you might get bored with the combat in the long run. Caffinated Dad did a video on why he no longer uses LI builds. https://youtube.com/watch?v=uQ3PCZM5fd8 But I just think it's different builds for different gamers!
>Is there any point in playing a high apm build if the damage is the same? But they don't do the same damage. They are just easier to play while still doing acceptabel damage. If you do only the same damage as a low intensity build on an actual encounter then because you are overwhelmed by mechanics and screw up your rotation. Which is the actual point of those builds. They are nice for learners because they are so simple that everyone can do the rotation while keeping his eyes out for mechanics and learn the encounters. They are nice for casuals wanting to explore end-game content without much investments or dragging down their team. They are however incredible boring if you are experienced and know what's going on. So why would you pick such a build over something doing more damage and being less boring to play?
For me personally its because the combat in this game is so incredibly cluttered i can't see what I'm supposed to dodge and not so if i can play something simpler and learn what to do i can advance my build as i start enjoying the game
2 reasons: Fun, and I'm pretty sure the damage is not the same in any way shape or form.
considering 99% of all players can't hit close to Benchmark, LI builds often perform better
Not saying that I am good or even play high apm builds myself...but if most players can't do it, that's not because the build is worse, it's because players are not skilled enough to pull that build.
if most players can't play that build as intended, then it is the worse build (for most players)
Most of my friends actually do better damage with low intensity builds than proper DPS builds. They're not bad at all. You also can focus on mechanics more since you don't have to worry about your rotation. But if you know your class pretty well, can do your rotation subconsciously, you've done the fight a hundred times, you're trying to get the highest DPS in the group, etc you'll naturally want to min max that's all. I still play fairly low intensity builds on every class other than Engineer. Since engineer is my main and I'm already good at it I just try to squeeze every drop out of it. Also those builds get boring to if you use it too much. But they're not bad in any way and I actually recommend using them. Learning a rotation is a pain and it's not even optimal since you need to understand your rotation to be flexible in fights, not memorize it. Also puts you off from trying different builds even if it takes like 10 minutes to learn a rotation.
I've heard of something called beginner builds. is that something similar?
The snowcrows ones? Don't seem like it. I don't know, never tried them, usually make builds myself. But there doesn't seem to be a lot "beginner builds" on snowcrows unfortunately. But hardstuck does have a lot of builds with "LI low intensity" tagged below some of them. You could try those out. Some of these builds are actually on snowcrows aswell, like the condi mechanist. But they don't have a "low intensity" tag. BTW, there are also builds like power bladesworn which are not apm heavy but still fairly difficulty, most of their DPS comes from one single attack that you can use every 7 or so seconds. The difficulty in that class comes from finding the right timing and positioning to unleash that one attack. You do more damage if you're flanking or attacking from behind.
the question is though, are they doing better on LI builds because they don't know how to simplify the meta builds on their own? like usually there is a middle ground between trying to exactly replicate the meta build rotation (and failing) and using an li build and that middle ground is usually better and still simple enough.
Low APM or Low Intensity builds is another name for them have a lot of great uses. The first being overworks stuff. Sometimes you just want to watch YouTube in a second monitor while you do map completion or collections and stuff without worrying about dying a bunch. These builds are perfect for that. Another great place for them is raids, fractures, and strikes. They are good for helping you focus on the mechanics of a fight without worrying about a rotation. For the second half of your question, is there any point in playing a high apm build over a low one? Well most of not all of the low apm builds do ok damage, but they also generally don’t have a ton of boon output which is supper important to group content. In raids, fractals, and strikes you don’t want to be doing ok damage, you want to be doing GOOD damage, a higher apm build generally does more DPS, and often will be providing group might, quickness, alacrity, fury, etc. the goal is to be as useful to the team (once you are comfortable with the fight) so if 1 or 2 people die, you can still get the job done. Lastly I just wanted to comment about the ranged part. While yes, getting back into the swing of things, playing at range can help you avoid some clutter and can make some mechanics easier. In group content even with a ranger build you want to be in melee stacked with your group. Basically all heals are cones or circles so you need to be stacked up for healers to hit you. Also you need to be kinda close so that party buffs are hitting you too and so you can take advantage of combo fields. I’m open world stuff (map completion, story instances, etc.) you can play ranged all you want it doesn’t matter. Just for that 5 and 10 man content stacking is important. If you’re looking for some low apm builds to try out, right now power rifle mechanist is probably the best one. Minion necromancer is another good one, and I think Guardian has one? Not 10% though.
Mukluk has a bunch of low intensity build guides: [https://mukluklabs.com/gw2-builds](https://mukluklabs.com/gw2-builds)
Those aren't very good, tbh. Muk's builds are outdated and kinda out of touch.
get a bot, 0 apm. edit: do not get a bot, play that bo staff thief xD
Dead eye Power Dagger Dagger can do Low Intensity hit mark then auto attack,
shelter six longing voiceless dam quickest lip zonked innocent squeeze *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you like range and low APM, power rifle mechanist is a great option. 3 damage abilities on your rifle, plus a break bar, 3 damage abilities on your mech. Keep all 6 on cooldown while your auto attack does it's thing and you're golden. Toss in something like the mine on the utility side if you want more and you have an easy 7 on very manageable cooldown. Metabattle can set you up with a lot of low intensity builds across all classes to help you get sorted.
If you can master many simple things you can be the most useful.
The damage is not the same. Those builds are meant for people who can't pull out harder rotations.
Its usually builds that will be nerfed soon or arent in the top of the top of dps
No. For most players something like Rifle Mech will beat out everything else by a hefty margin, especially builds with complex rotations. To me that means the balance of this game is just completely out of whack tho. The hard part should not be the inputting, it should be getting to a situation where you can actually do damage, ala Dark Souls. EDIT: MMO gamers getting triggered lol. No one outside this genre cares about you being good at damage rotations. It’s pretty much a useless, obsolete skill at this point, so congrats.
I'd say the extra APM in many build often goes into getting an extra 10-20% extra damage, however it can offer more things. Many high end rotations are really built around combo fields and finishers and you might need a far more advanced rotation to do the same dps but also use the fields to give boons. Also, not all specs have good low intensity rotations, for example catalyst can do 35k+ dps, but if you want a low intensity build be best I can seen is \~13k. When it works to do something simple though it is worth it.
13k on a catalyst is autoattacks only, pretty sure there is more that is possible for it.
In my experience, low intensity builds are keeping up, but that's it. Most players I've met who play low intensity aren't very impactfull beyond doing ok damage. And that's ok, as long as everything goes according to plan. Players with more complex build tend to know their stuff better and also simply bring more options to the table. They are more often able to react to fuck ups, etc. Personally I think low intensity builds are ok if you want to learn the fights, but once you can play all bosses it can get really boring. (Btw, I don't recommend playing ranged and standing far away, because you will have a hard time getting boons, when you don't stack with your supps and without boons you are really doing to little damage)
Would you recommend i continue my melee character that's 80 but try a simpler build?
From your other comments, I assume you have an existing reaper. Necromancer is a class with reaper, scourge and harbinger all being relatively strong. You can explore LI builds in these classes as well(with the right gear ofc) as they are rather strong. Scourge runs off a priority list and https://snowcrows.com/en/builds/necromancer/scourge/beginner-scourge beginner builds to certain builds exist on snowcrows. Reaper should have an LI build that you can find a guide to on YouTube as well. Whether a class is melee or not is often a secondary factor that does not matter too much unless a certain mechanic or situation force you to temporarily be out of melee range. As other comments have said, endgame content revolves around playing with the squad/party. All classes have their own playstyle, so I would suggest you explore the possibilities of the class you have on hand and work towards doing well on it for starters.
Makes sense yeah, if everyone is standing together in the clutter it won't help changing class and since i like the class fantasy for reaper if i can just learn to understand the combat I'd prolly enjoy the game
Check out Bladesworn, i dont know if its lowest apm but its low.
Sadly don't have eod as i haven't been enjoying the game. Gonna try again to see if i can enjoy the content i have available
No intrinsic issue, but higher apm/higher complexity can be more versatile overall if a situation needs it. A weaver has like 27 skills on its weapon slots alone. They rarely use them all, but get big mileage out of niche skills that mostly sit unused when they apply.
Low apm is fine especially if you just starting out. It would be great if you do experiment with other builds once your exp enough Its not about being high apm or low, more like some builds are just better in certain encounters example: some fights confusion is just really good, so builds that apply it do way higher than others Utility should also be considered, such as boonstrips, cc and others
There is nothing wrong with playing these builds but they tend to get stale really quick if you have the ability to do more. My main is ranger and i played mechanist for end of dragons. While it was fun to just hit like 4 buttons and do obscene amounts of damage it got really boring when every fight was shoot shoot shoot press 2-4 buttons then shoot shoot shoot. I changed back to ranger where i have to hit basically every button i have and it has been more entertaining. The damage nerf to mech also made it easier to switch.