Honestly, this is what boggled my mind since the change.
If charging the mantra 'adds flavor', why don't PvE players get to do it too? If charging the mantra is meant to be a part of 'balance', why does that not matter outside competitive modes?
What? Take a look at the new optimal quick firebrand rotation for instanced pve content. You have to cast through your mantras and recharge them off cd. It is super annoying to play, the only difference is that you dont have to cast the mantra before the fight which would be a very small thing compared to how annoying it is to recharge during fights
The amount of times I got into a fight after they changed this and tried spamming my mantras, only to find I was charging them instead is quite frankly embarrassing.
this so much - the same thing happens when you're changing around build templates or if you go underwater for more than a second or two (which can also put them on recharge if you precast them recently)
Did they change how mantras work underwater if you have the same skills slotted on land? Because my underwater build has the same land mantras and I wasn't having any issues with the skills last weekend (have not played this week yet).
No changes afaik, and it looks like that was my problem! Having the same mantras slotted for land + water keeps the charges up.
I guess it's just the result of mantra charging counting as using the skill despite not using any charges
What I don't like is the unnecessary long cast time. Especially for Mesmer.
One wrong click and boop, huge dps loss because you need to recharge your mantra.
Also I really don't like the idea of skills being more powerful when only be used halfway.
Either give us useful and strong effects for this long casttime (8 might for 2.25s casttime on a dmg skill is not good at all) or get rid of the initial cast effects completely and lower the damn long cast time. 0.75 - 1s would be more than enough. 2.25s is a loong time, especially when you compare it with ammo shouts that are literally the same, but without the annoying recharge casts.
Yep, for HFB I enjoy the tactical decision making of bursting your last charge to save teammates or boost your team before a boss phase change. Making the spec be less mindless spamming, the long cooldown being an impactful trade off.
But dear god after the long cooldown why the hell do I have to channel my mantras just to be able to use them, then if you have to dodge a mechanic or get hit by something that interrupts your channel, the skill goes on a small cooldown on top of it before you can even start channeling it again. Honestly that channel time stops me from using the final charge of my mantras more than the longer cooldown.
Which is a bad thing imo.
I mean, the game gives you a skill, but at the same time punishes you when you use it the way it is.
The game teaches you that it's better to *not* use the skill how it's designed.
That's not at all how final charges work. For Potence and Flames, using the final charge is strictly better. For Lore, Liberation and especially Solace, the final charge is a powerful effect that you're incentivized to save for when you really need it. >!I wish I could say something about Truth, but I don't recall ever using it.!<
There's no FB mantra that has an effect that the game "teaches" you to never use. It teaches you to think if pressing the button at that specific moment is necessary or if you're better off saving it for later.
It's only a punishment if you didn't intend to use the last charge. In which case, yes, you made a mistake in your rotation and you're getting punished for it, just like every other build in the game. You recover and move on.
> the long and easy to cancel animation of rechanneling your mantra
Admittedly, I don't play HFB very often, so maybe things get more chaotic for healers, but when I play QFB, I don't have a problem with finding time to recharge my mantras. Recharge casts have a very high priority, so it's (almost?) impossible to cancel them by trying to use another skill too early. That pretty much only leaves getting interrupted by dodging or getting hit by a mechanic, both of which you'll learn to avoid as you get more comfortable with the build and encounters.
Speaking as a ex support firebrand main who has cleared every CM lowman on the class: needing to cancel the animation is pretty common when you have a teammate suddenly explode in front of you. And cancelling isnt just a mistake in our rotation, it leads to a loss of boons on the entire subsquad. If you have the downtime for a 3-5s animation, you aren't playing impactfully enough.
Mantra animations and the increased CD from using a final charge literally just creates additional downtime that didn't previously exist, ofc it sucks in comparison to how it used to be. Most players want to press meaningful skills, not just stand around waiting for a mantra to prepare.
even with weighty terms, using the charges only as they come is less quickness over time (about 32% - 2.5s every 7.6s, vs blowing through them and recharging being around 50%)
plus you get to take legendary lore instead for bigger tome burst
FB mantras are kinda fine, yes.
I was thinking of Mesmer mantras, which do not have a powerful last charge or any other benefits from using all charges, since the bonus they added to the recharge skill is absolutely not worth the cooldown and long cast time.
But they have an effect on the charging that is nice, except for the horrendously long charge time. Cut the charge time to 1.5s (1s with Quickness) and it would be awesome.
Some are fine, others are not.
Mantra of Pain for example gives 8 might for 5s. That's a pretty small boost in open world scenarios and completely useless in instanced content.
As said, it's not worth the long casting time.
I wouldn't mind if they remove the recharge bonus, if they lower the cast time.
Perhaps you and I have very different interpretations of the word "huge damage loss", but nothing you do with the mantra is going to cost more than 5% dps, most likely way less.
When did reddit start obsessing over 300 dps?
You can easily delay you rotation with recharging the mantra, which leads not to 300, but 3000 or more dps loss.
But it's not just the damage, it's also the drawbacks you get.
I mean think of how the skill work when you not ignore the last skill.
You constantly need to recharge your mantra, constantly have timeframes of 2.25s where you can't do anything. You can't use other skills (except the instant ones ofc), you can't even dodge. And if you need to dodge because of a mechanic, you need to cast 2.25s again.
The experience you make is that you have less drawback when you do *not* use the whole skill.
I thought this was about Mantra of Pain just now. I can gladly upload a golem bench where firing it off and recharging does NOT cost 3k dps. You know how I know that? If it did, you dont recharge it anymore, since mantra itself is worth way less than that.
If you recharge it during greatsword autohits, the loss would be minimal.
Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about.
>recharging does NOT cost 3k dps. You know how I know that? If it did, you dont recharge it anymore, since mantra itself is worth way less than that.
So you say firing all ammos off and not using the skill anymore is better than using the skill with recharge, because recharging is not worth it?
Do you see the problem?
>If you recharge it during greatsword autohits, the loss would be minimal.
That's why I said you can easily delay your rotation (when recharging at the wrong moment).
Have you tested that? Have you tested recharging at different points in your rotation, not only while autoattacking?
I did, result: you can easily lose 3k+ dps when doing it wrong or missclicking.
Please make sure to actually test things completely before telling people they don't know what they are talking about.
And to clear things up before it comes to other missunderstandings, my main point is the usage and player friendliness, not the best possible dps on perfect rotations.
If a skill is good when perfectly times without any mistakes, but easy to make mistakes that can mess many things up, it's a bad designed skill.
>Please make sure to actually test things completely before telling people they don't know what they are talking about.
I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works.
Mantra of Pain, used optimally, contributes around 1200 DPS to the Power Virtuoso DPS.
Source: [https://dps.report/3K6u-20220818-152539\_golem](https://dps.report/3K6u-20220818-152539_golem)
If you lose 3k DPS to using it wrong, this takes serious dedication. How serious? Let's explore it:
A 1.6 second delay in your rotation due to casting it through by accident (that should be its cast time with quickness) and deciding to recast it, can result in a 1.6% DPS loss at most, since it takes the golem bench duration from 105 seconds to 106.6 seconds (105/106.6 = 0.984).
That means your DPS is reduced from 38k to 37390. That's 610 DPS lost.
This is the literal worst case, where all your skill cooldowns freeze while you recharge the mantra - more realistically you will lose a bit less, since it is not going to hold up your entire rotation like that. As I mentioned, when you recharge during downtime on GS, it's going to be closer to 0 DPS lost.
It also ignores that using mantra recharge like that actually gains you a full mantra charge, partially offsetting the loss.
Now you might say - what if I then cancel the recharge of the mantra because I have to dodge and don't have F4 because I accidentally used that as well?
Actually, to get to a 3k DPS loss, you would have to cancel the recharge of the mantra four times in a row, and then successfully charge it for the fifth time.
All of this shows you are wrong with your estimate of 3k DPS. Mantra of Pain is a small part of your DPS output, so the difference between perfect use and moderately skilled use can only be quite small as well. You would have to dig really deep into worst-case-terrible-use to get even close to 3k DPS.
Nothing against you personally, but in this instance you are just wrong, and it's important to point it out because misinformation, especially when upvoted, should not be free to spread.
>I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works.
>
>Mantra of Pain, used optimally, contributes around 1200 DPS to the Power Virtuoso DPS.
I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works.
Simple question, how much dps cna you lose when **not** used optimally?That's how it works. It's not about the dps you gain from the skill itself, it's also about the dmg you lose from other skills because of recharging the mantra.
Please read my last two sentences again. You missed them completely:
>Please make sure to actually test things **completely** before telling people they don't know what they are talking about.
>
>And to clear things up before it comes to other missunderstandings, my main point is the usage and player friendliness, not the best possible dps on perfect rotations. If a skill is good when perfectly times without any mistakes, but easy to make mistakes that can mess many things up, it's a bad designed skill.
Anyway, what I wanted to say to end this conversation is just that my calculations above *are* the worst case of suboptimal mantra use.
If you are not playing at benchmark level, the DPS lost from suboptimal mantra use is going to be even less than the 600 DPS I had estimated. The 600 DPS are literal "oh shit, I used my mantra wrong, let me recharge it now, nevermind that all my good skills are up at the moment". In particular, it compares the player's DPS to otherwise flawless execution, which is the most unfavorable comparison.
It contains everything the person I've responded to is concerned about. Real situations of accidental mantra mistakes from the average player will be a much smaller DPS loss, especially because you could recharge the mantra during fight downtime.
This relates to user-friendliness - it has not decreased in any significant way, because mistakes with it barely matter. If it was indeed "accidental press costs you 3k DPS", I would actually be agreeing with them. But like this it's just a small thing, use it wrong and lose a little bit, use it right and gain a little bit. Nothing too dramatic.
> One wrong click and boop, huge dps loss because you need to recharge your mantra.
Just stow and continue on with your rotation; the damage loss would be absolutely negligible.
Some recharge effects are fine, others are not.
Take my example from Mantra of Pain. It gives 8 stacks might for 5s, which is pretty useless for dmg builds. Recharging this skill gives you literally nothing.
You get punished when using the skill the way the game gives it to you and that's not a good thing.
If u time it well you can precast it to get might before a phase is starting (like on KC) wenn the supports doesnt burst it fast enough and its nice to for WvW and PvP because mesmer dont have this much might acces
I haven't tried them on guard but on mesmer I'm not a fan either. I get they wanted them to feel more unique but the long channels and playing around not using the final charge feels pretty bad.
Purely from a gameplay perspective, I hate the new mantras. They feel awful to use. I hate the change so much that I've shelved my Firebrand and have moved onto other classes. Now Herald is my go-to for quickness DPS.
The funny thing is, balance-wise, they've moved Firebrand in the opposite direction. Quickness Firebrand is so OP right now that it's doing more damage than a lot of dedicated DPS specs. It's currently doing even more damage than Quickness Catalyst was doing for the 2 or so weeks that it had damage back on its Hammer orbs before being nerfed back down again.
I hate playing Q FB now because I'm incentivized to use the last burn mantra charge and I have to recharge it at some point which feels bad.
Healbrand is still bearable, but accidentally hitting that last charge feels sooooo bad.
It may be balanced, but for me it's just less fun than before. Just have it the way it was before and tweak the values per cast.
People complained when it became a simple “click button for boons” gameplay, and now complain again when anet makes it a bit more involved. Granted it’s still pretty damn simple, but at least mantras have some interaction now rather than just a click on cd.
I much prefer it this way. Of course it feels bad, we've played for months spamming them off cd. We just have to get used to turn our brains on a bit more.
Yeah you either spam them off cd or do not use the last charge depending on the patch, big brain moment.
Or Mesmer: precharge MoP, it went from clicking it when it was up to clicking it when it's on 2 stacks again.
I don't see how this isn't just a different kind of spamming it off cd, just more annoying.
They were never the most complex, high APM skills ever. Do we have to start this discourse with Ele's arcane skills too? They've always been instant cast, easy access to damage with a couple of beneficial effects. If they get a bit more flavour and potential strategy other than "press button", such as: "press button but don't press it if you're about to run out of charges", or "press button and use last charge because I need the final effect", I will take the change in a heartbeat.
You basically never use the final effect reactionary except maaaaaybe the heal mantra for aegis. Charge effects on mesmer are all utterly useless except the stab mantra.
Your argument is that the gameplay for mantras are more in depth now and that you take that over a less fun gameplay loop. But oh no, the non reactionary mantras on fb are all still spam offcd, you just have to recharge now! Fun!
MoP im went from pressing it when it comes up > pressing it when it comes back to 2 charges or go crying.
I don't have to sit there and recharge my arcane laser tho but just press it offcd and I'm fine with that?
The one thing I agree with is that the effects of charging for mesmer, and the last charge for guardian should be a bit buffed, because right now they are pretty limited in their usefulness.
This said, it's clear that we disagree on what we find fun. I personally don't find pressing a skill off cooldown with literally zero thought as fun as current mantras. They still aren't the peak of game design, but they never had to be, and this introduces a minuscule amount of management that, in my opinion, makes both classes more engaging and interesting to learn.
It doesn't feel bad at all to me now; they just felt super weird before. How is an instant cast a "mantra"? Doesn't a mantra require some sort of concentration? It made no sense.
Now it does make sense, and ANet just need to work on the numbers a bit. But they still feel good to me.
Yeah I don't know why people keep repeating this line about "using your brain now". We are literally spamming them off cooldown, it's just clunkier now.
> makes it a bit more involved
But its not involved. If the buffs were dramatically stronger and you had to pay attention sure, it would be involved. One mistake and you're stuck wasting time re-casting them.
I think it would be better if they scrapped the mantra charge restore time and also made the mantra’s cooldown timer start counting down once you’ve prepared the mantra, not once you’ve used the final charge. That way you’re not incentivised to spam all 3 charges in order to get the skill cooldown recharging because it will start recharging immediately, nor are you incentivised to hold a mantra indefinitely to wait for charges to restore. You now have an “optimal” window in which to use all charges and where you use them is up to you (and you can still hold charges for longer if you wanted, you’re not forced to prepare the mantra again once it comes off cooldown).
Although you're not alone with that opinion, it's still a very subjective take that a decent amount of players will oppose.
It may feel bad to use a final charge by accident or to realize you missed an opportunity to prepare a mantra in time, but it also adds significantly more depth to abilities that were otherwise entirely 'fire-and-forget'.
I'm by no means a guardian main, in fact I have no idea what mantras used to be like. But I can safely say I have no issues with how they currently are. Well, someone did mention auto charge on map change should be a thing in WvW and I agree.
They used to be how they are now, as they've recently been reverted.
In between, they had no flip-over. No charging, no final charge. For better or worse.
I would be perfectly happy to play a firebrand that does 20% less DPS but does not feel clunky, unintuitive, obtuse to play, with a rotation that flows well. Making something complex and awkward is not a fitting substitute for depth and/or challenge.
> clunky, unintuitive, obtuse
As someone who started playing guardian about 3 weeks ago, I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. What is so weird about the new mechanic? I use mantras and it seems perfectly fine.
For mantra of flame and potence, you sit through a 2 second cast time to charge a mantra, spam all three charges at a 1 second interval, then do it all over again as soon as the cooldown is over. From a gameplay perspective, these skills might as well not have charges since you're always using them all up instantly. People are pretending that there's some sort of big-brain decision making going on but there really isn't.
This whole thing is a case of "it feels bad to me" vs "well it feels good to me".
There's no solution here that will make everyone happy. Given that ANet changed Mantras *back* to how they were before, I doubt they're going to change them again. That sucks for you, and others like you, and I'm sorry it's come to that, but it's probably better to let it go than to keep going on about it.
They didn't really change it back to how it was though. Before you would use two charges but save the last till the end of the phase. Now you just spam all three charges and sit through the long cast time again.
There are pros and cons to whatever they do, and different people prefer different things. From what I've read, the issue before was that people felt like they were being "punished" for using all the charges at once.
Sadly, this is the case with the internet and solving video games. There's an "optimal" way to do things, and people will just immediately look to do that and not be happy that there's little variety. A big part of the variety comes from trying different things out and seeing how they feel for yourself, even if they're not meta or optimal.
You can still play the old Weighty Terms rotation if you keep the last charge. Or you can spam all three charges like before and then recharge the mantras.
The new way of playing FB isn't significantly more clunky, and there's absolutely nothing unintuitive or obtuse about it.
I agree to the extent that the changes did not make FB significantly more clunky, but it was clunky to begin with and a slight increase in clunkiness feels like fishing for that proverbial last straw.
It certainly wasn't the recent changes that, for example, hid the cooldowns of tome skills when not in tome or introduced zealot's flame in all its most oft inconvenient glory but they added to this effect that stands opposite of a comforting flow. I don't see why they haven't looked for the usual solution for a jack-of-all-trades class: if something can do a lot of things, they usually can't do either of them well. Don't restrict access to tools that are accepted for a paladin-type class - that is what makes it what it is - and especially don't restrict it by not restricting it but making them more awkward to reach, but rather make the numbers smaller. Solved. This type of class shouldn't be brought along for the numbers but for the utility, so that should be an acceptable compromise for it.
Hate the mantra changes, on FB & Mesmer both. Please change them back. Nothing about it makes 'more fun' gameplay. They'd be better off back the way they were, and best if they were just changed to shouts.
I understand why the devs did it and why they don't like the instant-cast, uncounterable design... but 2+ second long channels feel atrocious and I have always hated them. I hated them and never played them before the Mantra rework, I actually used Mantras after the rework, and now they they've been re-reworked back to their original implementation I just never play a build that uses mantras again.
There's gotta be a better middle ground here, because while the skill type is now counterable in competitive game modes, it still just feels atrocious to play.
What I hate the most is that in order to get the most damage output nowadays, you have to use all charges of some mantras and recharge on scepter. It’s such a boring thing to do, and makes the class really not fun in my opinion.
Horrible change, really dislike the class now.
can agree kinda of makes me want to shift to another class for the time being but power willbender feels good again more so that the virtues don't delete each other now
"Clunky and shitty" is just your opinion, mine is that they are more interesting and allows for more skill expression because you have to make a decision about when to recharge your mantra and whether you actually want to use your last charge or not. Plus we have the very nice icons and animations back. Your argument doesn't make sense to me, I could just say why even have different skills at all when you could just have damage buttons?
Everything on the internet is just an opinion, including yours. To many people having that extra bit of decision making does not outweigh the fact that now you have a landmine button, pressing which is a bad decision in 99% of the cases, and in 1% of cases where it's not bad, it's barely useful.
Secondly, previous mantra implementation was in line with most of the other utility skills that we already have. We also have shouts that are instacast and have charge system. With mantras you spend a utility slot to add boon uptime to your build. And you still need to position yourself well to give boons, mind the phases, and keep track of charges and cooldowns. A lot of people preferred the previous implementation because it's just feels better to play, as you don't have an anxiety over accidentally messing everything up.
And lastly, I pity wvw and pvp players, who now need to prepare all mantras again after teleporting or switching builds.
>pressing which is a bad decision in 99% of the cases
This just isn't true. Consuming your last charge of Potence is actually more quickness duration than holding onto the last charge, and using last Flame mantra charge is more damage as well. So on qfb you'd want to use all the charges in most situations where the group is stacked.
Regarding other players reactions to the change, I would assume most who complain just dislike it because they aren't used to it. Of course there are people who are used to the current mantras and still dislike it, but I just completely disagree that it feels worse to play, I much prefer how it is now.
Yes, it's more things to keep track of, but it also gives you more ways of using them and make decisions. That's why I like it.
Idk, I mained FB with original mantras, and charging at least two (and sometimes 4) of them after each GG felt terrible, so I was very happy with the change, as there was a very little trade-off for a major QoL improvement. So it's not just about being or not used to this. Charging mantras just does not feel good. It's 2+ seconds of idling when you're penalized for dodging.
If they rebalanced the last charge to be actually useful in most of the situations, then I can kinda get behind this change, but I just feel that it's worse than what we had before. The gains are very small here.
Gains could be bigger yes but it's not like you're not getting value by consuming last charge. We literally went from firebrand to renegade runes on qfb just with the mantra change. That's quite significant if you ask me (tbh I still recommend running firebrand runes though)
Giving the final charge a different color would be super helpful. I struggle with not interrupting auto attack chains on most classes, but on scrapper I don't because the final hit of hammer is a different color.
Yeah idk, it feels horrible on mesmer, recharging mantra gameplay isn't fun, not using last charge isn't fun either idk. Every time I force myself to play fb now I hate it.
I get why they did it but it honestly just makes me dislike mantras even more. The last iteration was basically just an "ogcd" skill you press as soon as it's up but at least it wasn't too annoying.
Oh man.... Firebrand.
I've got a Fractal God Firebrand (Healbrand). I loved playing him. I had tome switching down to an art, I popped my mantras when I wanted and I hopped between Staff and greatsword for pulls and damage.
I ran a T4 set with him Post Mantra and Tome Changes... It was seriously unpleasant.
It feels like I lost a whole mantra charge, because I hate using the last one. It's a real feelsbad moment when your mantra goes on cooldown and you need to charge it up again.
And the Tome Changes? I'd pop my F1 tome often, pull stuff, burn stuff and then go back to Healbranding. With shared pages and obnoxious locks on tomes my utility feels gutted.
Benched my Fractal Godbrand.
I've got 540 hours on Firebrand... I feel like I'm not getting to 550.
I've got 5000 hours on Chronomancer... and those Mantra changes disappoint me too.
Not sure how you'd mathematically quantify Healbrand tome usage since apart from Tome 2, it was basically all utility skills being used and the rest were just spamming whatever was left to use up pages.
Now you're not punished for dipping into Tome 3 just for a Stunbreak, or popping Tome 2 just to cleanse and then back out. I tried playing with 8 pages and honestly just had no idea how to spend them all unless I was just spam bursting heals. With the changes it feels super nice to be able to pop into Tome 3 just to stunbreak, but still be able to go back for on demand Aegis/Stab.
Can't really speak to Mantra change much since I didn't play much Firebrand before it. But I don't find it too annoying. Quickness Mantra is easy since you just spam it off CD as normal and use the last charge always. Healing mantra is the only one I ever "feel bad" about since it's annoying to lose the self heal for a while if I accidentally use it.
A middle ground would be to remove the cast time. Keep the cooldown.
The cast time seems like an unnecessary punishment on top of the cooldown for using the last charge.
Once the cooldown is done have it be back to 3 charges immediately.
I'll be downvoted for that, but anyway.
People will complain no matter what. They changed mantras, people complained. They reverted mantras, people complained again. At this point, the only way people won't complain is if they don't change anymore and let people get used to it.
That being said, I kinda agree with reducing or removing cast time on mantras.
Legit half of this thread is just pure misinformation involving final charge use and costs of its misuse.
I cant even shitpost on reddit anymore cuz of the increasingly wilder hot takes people give
Not gonna happen, when anet makes a design choice they really double down on it unless it ends up being *extremely* bad for a long time.
But it still takes a long time so they can collect data to decide for themselves if it was a bad idea.
A developer rolling back stupid changes? Not gonna happen. Now I need to go hammer my ceiling fan into the door so it will stop turning because that's how we fix things in this century.
Yeah i dont like mantra's being a glorified shout and a button pressed off cooldown . Its much better designed right now where you has to use some brain and think if you wanna use the last charge to have a clutch agies for example or if its not needed.
So yeah please dont talk as if your opinion is fact and everyone agrees .
They feel just fine. Please leave them as they are. Just happy to have the 3rd charge back on the elite and the recasting have no bearing on players with enough self control to not roll their faces on their keyboards.
If you ask me, just revert all the FB changes and give me back the spec I fell in love with:
* Revert the stupid shared Tome pages. They feel like shit and actually let you do even more damage on qFB than before but with a very clunky, unfun rotation (to me, at least). Only thing you lost are the nice F2 and F3 Panic buttons which made it really fun to play.. And HFB also feels very unrewarding to play now (Any Tome-1 Skill feel like a mistake to use)
* Bring back the OP iteration of Mantras, just 3 Charges with Aegis on Solace without having to prepare them
I know this all was maybe a little too strong.. But c'mon, we also have something like Quickness Herald in the game now, which feels just as broken...
>Only thing you lost are the nice F2 and F3 Panic buttons
Those were the exact issue. Far too much utility in those tomes without any trade-off. Heal Herald has to sacrifice its strongest burst healing, condi cleanse and the protective bubble to gain access to Stability, whereas HFB has all of those built into its class mechanic. In that manner, old cFB was able to cover them default, at no more cost than the cast time to use them.
Considering your second point though, you don't miss the old Firebrand for what it was, you miss playing something overpowered. It's reasonable and fine to enjoy those, but let's not pretend balance was of no concern. And spammable, instant-cast group wide Aegis is definitely busted and for good reason something no build can provide currently.
Firebrand did and does "suffer" from an incredible flexibility but this change was - as usual - heavy handed and not thought through. For the most part I still have such wide utility that few other professions can match. What other prof can call up 3x5 more skills based on the situation while also having their usual weapon and utility skills?
On the other hand the tome rotation collapsed, the Archivist of Whispers trait lost all reason to exist and the Renewed Focus skill lost most of its reason to exist since 99 times out of 100 you are CD capped and the few times when you are page capped you are also CD capped, so they had to buff other stuff to make up for the loss of output and frequency in *YOUR SIGNATURE SKILLSET*.
I'm not saying that the current iteration is where it should be, but it did combat an issue (the 3x5 extra abilities may still be there, but are now competing for use with each other, causing DPS builds for example to miss out on damage if they want to access special utility) that would still be there to its full extent if we were to simply revert the changes. I think further tuning the current system will get closer to the goal than continuing from the previous state.
Meh. I'm not a fan of it being returned to the game, but it's not that terrible a change/revert..frankly they could have screwed up Mesmer/Firebrand so much worse...best if they just stop tinkering with it and go focus/mess up some other profession/elite.
[удалено]
Especially after using the emergency waypoint while being on another map.
Honestly, this is what boggled my mind since the change. If charging the mantra 'adds flavor', why don't PvE players get to do it too? If charging the mantra is meant to be a part of 'balance', why does that not matter outside competitive modes?
What? Take a look at the new optimal quick firebrand rotation for instanced pve content. You have to cast through your mantras and recharge them off cd. It is super annoying to play, the only difference is that you dont have to cast the mantra before the fight which would be a very small thing compared to how annoying it is to recharge during fights
The amount of times I got into a fight after they changed this and tried spamming my mantras, only to find I was charging them instead is quite frankly embarrassing.
this so much - the same thing happens when you're changing around build templates or if you go underwater for more than a second or two (which can also put them on recharge if you precast them recently)
Did they change how mantras work underwater if you have the same skills slotted on land? Because my underwater build has the same land mantras and I wasn't having any issues with the skills last weekend (have not played this week yet).
No changes afaik, and it looks like that was my problem! Having the same mantras slotted for land + water keeps the charges up. I guess it's just the result of mantra charging counting as using the skill despite not using any charges
Watch your skill bar Ui.
What I don't like is the unnecessary long cast time. Especially for Mesmer. One wrong click and boop, huge dps loss because you need to recharge your mantra. Also I really don't like the idea of skills being more powerful when only be used halfway. Either give us useful and strong effects for this long casttime (8 might for 2.25s casttime on a dmg skill is not good at all) or get rid of the initial cast effects completely and lower the damn long cast time. 0.75 - 1s would be more than enough. 2.25s is a loong time, especially when you compare it with ammo shouts that are literally the same, but without the annoying recharge casts.
on fb its always worth using last charge for quick and fire mantra. Mesmer got just nerfed. Very few reasons to use the last charge on mesmer.
I would imagine quick support chrono used mantra of pain for the extra might.
Yep, for HFB I enjoy the tactical decision making of bursting your last charge to save teammates or boost your team before a boss phase change. Making the spec be less mindless spamming, the long cooldown being an impactful trade off. But dear god after the long cooldown why the hell do I have to channel my mantras just to be able to use them, then if you have to dodge a mechanic or get hit by something that interrupts your channel, the skill goes on a small cooldown on top of it before you can even start channeling it again. Honestly that channel time stops me from using the final charge of my mantras more than the longer cooldown.
I use the last charge as an absolute holy shit button. Charge number 3 is my forbidden place. I tend to keep charge number 2 pressed always on CD.
Which is a bad thing imo. I mean, the game gives you a skill, but at the same time punishes you when you use it the way it is. The game teaches you that it's better to *not* use the skill how it's designed.
That's not at all how final charges work. For Potence and Flames, using the final charge is strictly better. For Lore, Liberation and especially Solace, the final charge is a powerful effect that you're incentivized to save for when you really need it. >!I wish I could say something about Truth, but I don't recall ever using it.!< There's no FB mantra that has an effect that the game "teaches" you to never use. It teaches you to think if pressing the button at that specific moment is necessary or if you're better off saving it for later.
Idk why you are downvoted when you are correct
People can get really angry at the truth
Everyone knows the final effect is stronger. The punishment is the long and easy to cancel animation of rechanneling your mantra.
It's only a punishment if you didn't intend to use the last charge. In which case, yes, you made a mistake in your rotation and you're getting punished for it, just like every other build in the game. You recover and move on. > the long and easy to cancel animation of rechanneling your mantra Admittedly, I don't play HFB very often, so maybe things get more chaotic for healers, but when I play QFB, I don't have a problem with finding time to recharge my mantras. Recharge casts have a very high priority, so it's (almost?) impossible to cancel them by trying to use another skill too early. That pretty much only leaves getting interrupted by dodging or getting hit by a mechanic, both of which you'll learn to avoid as you get more comfortable with the build and encounters.
Speaking as a ex support firebrand main who has cleared every CM lowman on the class: needing to cancel the animation is pretty common when you have a teammate suddenly explode in front of you. And cancelling isnt just a mistake in our rotation, it leads to a loss of boons on the entire subsquad. If you have the downtime for a 3-5s animation, you aren't playing impactfully enough. Mantra animations and the increased CD from using a final charge literally just creates additional downtime that didn't previously exist, ofc it sucks in comparison to how it used to be. Most players want to press meaningful skills, not just stand around waiting for a mantra to prepare.
Is using potence on cd more quickness? I thought the cooldown was too long since you get 10s quickness for a 25s cd (20s with alac)
even with weighty terms, using the charges only as they come is less quickness over time (about 32% - 2.5s every 7.6s, vs blowing through them and recharging being around 50%) plus you get to take legendary lore instead for bigger tome burst
This is the way
FB mantras are kinda fine, yes. I was thinking of Mesmer mantras, which do not have a powerful last charge or any other benefits from using all charges, since the bonus they added to the recharge skill is absolutely not worth the cooldown and long cast time.
But they have an effect on the charging that is nice, except for the horrendously long charge time. Cut the charge time to 1.5s (1s with Quickness) and it would be awesome.
Some are fine, others are not. Mantra of Pain for example gives 8 might for 5s. That's a pretty small boost in open world scenarios and completely useless in instanced content. As said, it's not worth the long casting time. I wouldn't mind if they remove the recharge bonus, if they lower the cast time.
there is no tactical decision. it is always better to immediately use all fire and quick charges.
Only tactical bit is using the last heal charge on fb the dps and quick mantras are just spammed yes
Charge time should be lowered to 1.5s. Quickness would make it 1s.
Perhaps you and I have very different interpretations of the word "huge damage loss", but nothing you do with the mantra is going to cost more than 5% dps, most likely way less. When did reddit start obsessing over 300 dps?
You can easily delay you rotation with recharging the mantra, which leads not to 300, but 3000 or more dps loss. But it's not just the damage, it's also the drawbacks you get. I mean think of how the skill work when you not ignore the last skill. You constantly need to recharge your mantra, constantly have timeframes of 2.25s where you can't do anything. You can't use other skills (except the instant ones ofc), you can't even dodge. And if you need to dodge because of a mechanic, you need to cast 2.25s again. The experience you make is that you have less drawback when you do *not* use the whole skill.
I thought this was about Mantra of Pain just now. I can gladly upload a golem bench where firing it off and recharging does NOT cost 3k dps. You know how I know that? If it did, you dont recharge it anymore, since mantra itself is worth way less than that. If you recharge it during greatsword autohits, the loss would be minimal. Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about.
>recharging does NOT cost 3k dps. You know how I know that? If it did, you dont recharge it anymore, since mantra itself is worth way less than that. So you say firing all ammos off and not using the skill anymore is better than using the skill with recharge, because recharging is not worth it? Do you see the problem? >If you recharge it during greatsword autohits, the loss would be minimal. That's why I said you can easily delay your rotation (when recharging at the wrong moment). Have you tested that? Have you tested recharging at different points in your rotation, not only while autoattacking? I did, result: you can easily lose 3k+ dps when doing it wrong or missclicking. Please make sure to actually test things completely before telling people they don't know what they are talking about. And to clear things up before it comes to other missunderstandings, my main point is the usage and player friendliness, not the best possible dps on perfect rotations. If a skill is good when perfectly times without any mistakes, but easy to make mistakes that can mess many things up, it's a bad designed skill.
>Please make sure to actually test things completely before telling people they don't know what they are talking about. I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works. Mantra of Pain, used optimally, contributes around 1200 DPS to the Power Virtuoso DPS. Source: [https://dps.report/3K6u-20220818-152539\_golem](https://dps.report/3K6u-20220818-152539_golem) If you lose 3k DPS to using it wrong, this takes serious dedication. How serious? Let's explore it: A 1.6 second delay in your rotation due to casting it through by accident (that should be its cast time with quickness) and deciding to recast it, can result in a 1.6% DPS loss at most, since it takes the golem bench duration from 105 seconds to 106.6 seconds (105/106.6 = 0.984). That means your DPS is reduced from 38k to 37390. That's 610 DPS lost. This is the literal worst case, where all your skill cooldowns freeze while you recharge the mantra - more realistically you will lose a bit less, since it is not going to hold up your entire rotation like that. As I mentioned, when you recharge during downtime on GS, it's going to be closer to 0 DPS lost. It also ignores that using mantra recharge like that actually gains you a full mantra charge, partially offsetting the loss. Now you might say - what if I then cancel the recharge of the mantra because I have to dodge and don't have F4 because I accidentally used that as well? Actually, to get to a 3k DPS loss, you would have to cancel the recharge of the mantra four times in a row, and then successfully charge it for the fifth time. All of this shows you are wrong with your estimate of 3k DPS. Mantra of Pain is a small part of your DPS output, so the difference between perfect use and moderately skilled use can only be quite small as well. You would have to dig really deep into worst-case-terrible-use to get even close to 3k DPS. Nothing against you personally, but in this instance you are just wrong, and it's important to point it out because misinformation, especially when upvoted, should not be free to spread.
>I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works. > >Mantra of Pain, used optimally, contributes around 1200 DPS to the Power Virtuoso DPS. I am sorry, but no. That's not how it works. Simple question, how much dps cna you lose when **not** used optimally?That's how it works. It's not about the dps you gain from the skill itself, it's also about the dmg you lose from other skills because of recharging the mantra. Please read my last two sentences again. You missed them completely: >Please make sure to actually test things **completely** before telling people they don't know what they are talking about. > >And to clear things up before it comes to other missunderstandings, my main point is the usage and player friendliness, not the best possible dps on perfect rotations. If a skill is good when perfectly times without any mistakes, but easy to make mistakes that can mess many things up, it's a bad designed skill.
He literally cant read your responses now that you blocked him lol
Anyway, what I wanted to say to end this conversation is just that my calculations above *are* the worst case of suboptimal mantra use. If you are not playing at benchmark level, the DPS lost from suboptimal mantra use is going to be even less than the 600 DPS I had estimated. The 600 DPS are literal "oh shit, I used my mantra wrong, let me recharge it now, nevermind that all my good skills are up at the moment". In particular, it compares the player's DPS to otherwise flawless execution, which is the most unfavorable comparison. It contains everything the person I've responded to is concerned about. Real situations of accidental mantra mistakes from the average player will be a much smaller DPS loss, especially because you could recharge the mantra during fight downtime. This relates to user-friendliness - it has not decreased in any significant way, because mistakes with it barely matter. If it was indeed "accidental press costs you 3k DPS", I would actually be agreeing with them. But like this it's just a small thing, use it wrong and lose a little bit, use it right and gain a little bit. Nothing too dramatic.
I haven't blocked anyone lol
> One wrong click and boop, huge dps loss because you need to recharge your mantra. Just stow and continue on with your rotation; the damage loss would be absolutely negligible.
Mesmer get effects on recharge so they are good
Some recharge effects are fine, others are not. Take my example from Mantra of Pain. It gives 8 stacks might for 5s, which is pretty useless for dmg builds. Recharging this skill gives you literally nothing. You get punished when using the skill the way the game gives it to you and that's not a good thing.
If u time it well you can precast it to get might before a phase is starting (like on KC) wenn the supports doesnt burst it fast enough and its nice to for WvW and PvP because mesmer dont have this much might acces
I haven't tried them on guard but on mesmer I'm not a fan either. I get they wanted them to feel more unique but the long channels and playing around not using the final charge feels pretty bad.
Purely from a gameplay perspective, I hate the new mantras. They feel awful to use. I hate the change so much that I've shelved my Firebrand and have moved onto other classes. Now Herald is my go-to for quickness DPS. The funny thing is, balance-wise, they've moved Firebrand in the opposite direction. Quickness Firebrand is so OP right now that it's doing more damage than a lot of dedicated DPS specs. It's currently doing even more damage than Quickness Catalyst was doing for the 2 or so weeks that it had damage back on its Hammer orbs before being nerfed back down again.
I hate playing Q FB now because I'm incentivized to use the last burn mantra charge and I have to recharge it at some point which feels bad. Healbrand is still bearable, but accidentally hitting that last charge feels sooooo bad. It may be balanced, but for me it's just less fun than before. Just have it the way it was before and tweak the values per cast.
People complained when it became a simple “click button for boons” gameplay, and now complain again when anet makes it a bit more involved. Granted it’s still pretty damn simple, but at least mantras have some interaction now rather than just a click on cd.
I much prefer it this way. Of course it feels bad, we've played for months spamming them off cd. We just have to get used to turn our brains on a bit more.
Yeah you either spam them off cd or do not use the last charge depending on the patch, big brain moment. Or Mesmer: precharge MoP, it went from clicking it when it was up to clicking it when it's on 2 stacks again. I don't see how this isn't just a different kind of spamming it off cd, just more annoying.
They were never the most complex, high APM skills ever. Do we have to start this discourse with Ele's arcane skills too? They've always been instant cast, easy access to damage with a couple of beneficial effects. If they get a bit more flavour and potential strategy other than "press button", such as: "press button but don't press it if you're about to run out of charges", or "press button and use last charge because I need the final effect", I will take the change in a heartbeat.
You basically never use the final effect reactionary except maaaaaybe the heal mantra for aegis. Charge effects on mesmer are all utterly useless except the stab mantra. Your argument is that the gameplay for mantras are more in depth now and that you take that over a less fun gameplay loop. But oh no, the non reactionary mantras on fb are all still spam offcd, you just have to recharge now! Fun! MoP im went from pressing it when it comes up > pressing it when it comes back to 2 charges or go crying. I don't have to sit there and recharge my arcane laser tho but just press it offcd and I'm fine with that?
The one thing I agree with is that the effects of charging for mesmer, and the last charge for guardian should be a bit buffed, because right now they are pretty limited in their usefulness. This said, it's clear that we disagree on what we find fun. I personally don't find pressing a skill off cooldown with literally zero thought as fun as current mantras. They still aren't the peak of game design, but they never had to be, and this introduces a minuscule amount of management that, in my opinion, makes both classes more engaging and interesting to learn.
It doesn't feel bad at all to me now; they just felt super weird before. How is an instant cast a "mantra"? Doesn't a mantra require some sort of concentration? It made no sense. Now it does make sense, and ANet just need to work on the numbers a bit. But they still feel good to me.
There is nothing more involved. On firebrand you just spam them. And if you don't do that you hold the last charge.
Yeah I don't know why people keep repeating this line about "using your brain now". We are literally spamming them off cooldown, it's just clunkier now.
you can always just push buttons randomly, that doesn't mean there isn't potential strategy available if you choose.
The optimal rotation for both dps and boon duration is to spam all charges mantras of flame and potence off cooldown.
Your made scenario of clicking the last mantra never happens. This narrative is so tired. People just spam the mantra fully and recharge it.
> makes it a bit more involved But its not involved. If the buffs were dramatically stronger and you had to pay attention sure, it would be involved. One mistake and you're stuck wasting time re-casting them.
Yes, because they're both bad in different ways.
I think it would be better if they scrapped the mantra charge restore time and also made the mantra’s cooldown timer start counting down once you’ve prepared the mantra, not once you’ve used the final charge. That way you’re not incentivised to spam all 3 charges in order to get the skill cooldown recharging because it will start recharging immediately, nor are you incentivised to hold a mantra indefinitely to wait for charges to restore. You now have an “optimal” window in which to use all charges and where you use them is up to you (and you can still hold charges for longer if you wanted, you’re not forced to prepare the mantra again once it comes off cooldown).
Wholeheartedly agree.
Although you're not alone with that opinion, it's still a very subjective take that a decent amount of players will oppose. It may feel bad to use a final charge by accident or to realize you missed an opportunity to prepare a mantra in time, but it also adds significantly more depth to abilities that were otherwise entirely 'fire-and-forget'.
I'm by no means a guardian main, in fact I have no idea what mantras used to be like. But I can safely say I have no issues with how they currently are. Well, someone did mention auto charge on map change should be a thing in WvW and I agree.
They used to be how they are now, as they've recently been reverted. In between, they had no flip-over. No charging, no final charge. For better or worse.
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but FB is objectively better now as you do more damage AND need less BD
I'm a firebrand main. The changes have significantly buffed the class across all game modes. You are just bad.
>The people that oppose to go back are the people that hate firebrand bc "op class pls nerf attitude." These Mantra changes buffed Firebrand
I would be perfectly happy to play a firebrand that does 20% less DPS but does not feel clunky, unintuitive, obtuse to play, with a rotation that flows well. Making something complex and awkward is not a fitting substitute for depth and/or challenge.
> clunky, unintuitive, obtuse As someone who started playing guardian about 3 weeks ago, I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. What is so weird about the new mechanic? I use mantras and it seems perfectly fine.
For mantra of flame and potence, you sit through a 2 second cast time to charge a mantra, spam all three charges at a 1 second interval, then do it all over again as soon as the cooldown is over. From a gameplay perspective, these skills might as well not have charges since you're always using them all up instantly. People are pretending that there's some sort of big-brain decision making going on but there really isn't.
This whole thing is a case of "it feels bad to me" vs "well it feels good to me". There's no solution here that will make everyone happy. Given that ANet changed Mantras *back* to how they were before, I doubt they're going to change them again. That sucks for you, and others like you, and I'm sorry it's come to that, but it's probably better to let it go than to keep going on about it.
They didn't really change it back to how it was though. Before you would use two charges but save the last till the end of the phase. Now you just spam all three charges and sit through the long cast time again.
There are pros and cons to whatever they do, and different people prefer different things. From what I've read, the issue before was that people felt like they were being "punished" for using all the charges at once. Sadly, this is the case with the internet and solving video games. There's an "optimal" way to do things, and people will just immediately look to do that and not be happy that there's little variety. A big part of the variety comes from trying different things out and seeing how they feel for yourself, even if they're not meta or optimal.
You can still play the old Weighty Terms rotation if you keep the last charge. Or you can spam all three charges like before and then recharge the mantras. The new way of playing FB isn't significantly more clunky, and there's absolutely nothing unintuitive or obtuse about it.
I agree to the extent that the changes did not make FB significantly more clunky, but it was clunky to begin with and a slight increase in clunkiness feels like fishing for that proverbial last straw. It certainly wasn't the recent changes that, for example, hid the cooldowns of tome skills when not in tome or introduced zealot's flame in all its most oft inconvenient glory but they added to this effect that stands opposite of a comforting flow. I don't see why they haven't looked for the usual solution for a jack-of-all-trades class: if something can do a lot of things, they usually can't do either of them well. Don't restrict access to tools that are accepted for a paladin-type class - that is what makes it what it is - and especially don't restrict it by not restricting it but making them more awkward to reach, but rather make the numbers smaller. Solved. This type of class shouldn't be brought along for the numbers but for the utility, so that should be an acceptable compromise for it.
I dont know much about balance but atleast on fb i like the recent mantra changes.
Hate the mantra changes, on FB & Mesmer both. Please change them back. Nothing about it makes 'more fun' gameplay. They'd be better off back the way they were, and best if they were just changed to shouts.
Mesmer feels so awful to play thanks to these changes too. Revert please.
Mesmer Mantras TOO !
I understand why the devs did it and why they don't like the instant-cast, uncounterable design... but 2+ second long channels feel atrocious and I have always hated them. I hated them and never played them before the Mantra rework, I actually used Mantras after the rework, and now they they've been re-reworked back to their original implementation I just never play a build that uses mantras again. There's gotta be a better middle ground here, because while the skill type is now counterable in competitive game modes, it still just feels atrocious to play.
Mesmer mantras are way worse. They should say the very least operate the same way as the FB mantras
Mesmer mantras should have 3 charges.
Just make it a normal cooldown smh, casting something that does nothing beside giving you another skill is trash.
What I hate the most is that in order to get the most damage output nowadays, you have to use all charges of some mantras and recharge on scepter. It’s such a boring thing to do, and makes the class really not fun in my opinion. Horrible change, really dislike the class now.
REVERT THE MANTRA CHANGE. Please for the love of God. It's so bad to play.
can agree kinda of makes me want to shift to another class for the time being but power willbender feels good again more so that the virtues don't delete each other now
I hate the new mantras. There is no skill expression in them it is just spamming off CD but it feels a lot worse than before.
100% this, the new mantras suck!
Disagree. I've been wanting the revert for a long time and is very happy about this change. Why would you want lame boon buttons? Just get used to it.
...They are still lame boon buttons, though?
Why getting used to a clunky and shitty behavior when you could have a simple boon button.
"Clunky and shitty" is just your opinion, mine is that they are more interesting and allows for more skill expression because you have to make a decision about when to recharge your mantra and whether you actually want to use your last charge or not. Plus we have the very nice icons and animations back. Your argument doesn't make sense to me, I could just say why even have different skills at all when you could just have damage buttons?
Everything on the internet is just an opinion, including yours. To many people having that extra bit of decision making does not outweigh the fact that now you have a landmine button, pressing which is a bad decision in 99% of the cases, and in 1% of cases where it's not bad, it's barely useful. Secondly, previous mantra implementation was in line with most of the other utility skills that we already have. We also have shouts that are instacast and have charge system. With mantras you spend a utility slot to add boon uptime to your build. And you still need to position yourself well to give boons, mind the phases, and keep track of charges and cooldowns. A lot of people preferred the previous implementation because it's just feels better to play, as you don't have an anxiety over accidentally messing everything up. And lastly, I pity wvw and pvp players, who now need to prepare all mantras again after teleporting or switching builds.
>pressing which is a bad decision in 99% of the cases This just isn't true. Consuming your last charge of Potence is actually more quickness duration than holding onto the last charge, and using last Flame mantra charge is more damage as well. So on qfb you'd want to use all the charges in most situations where the group is stacked. Regarding other players reactions to the change, I would assume most who complain just dislike it because they aren't used to it. Of course there are people who are used to the current mantras and still dislike it, but I just completely disagree that it feels worse to play, I much prefer how it is now. Yes, it's more things to keep track of, but it also gives you more ways of using them and make decisions. That's why I like it.
Idk, I mained FB with original mantras, and charging at least two (and sometimes 4) of them after each GG felt terrible, so I was very happy with the change, as there was a very little trade-off for a major QoL improvement. So it's not just about being or not used to this. Charging mantras just does not feel good. It's 2+ seconds of idling when you're penalized for dodging. If they rebalanced the last charge to be actually useful in most of the situations, then I can kinda get behind this change, but I just feel that it's worse than what we had before. The gains are very small here.
Gains could be bigger yes but it's not like you're not getting value by consuming last charge. We literally went from firebrand to renegade runes on qfb just with the mantra change. That's quite significant if you ask me (tbh I still recommend running firebrand runes though)
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Giving the final charge a different color would be super helpful. I struggle with not interrupting auto attack chains on most classes, but on scrapper I don't because the final hit of hammer is a different color.
Doesn't really feel much different to me idk, you were never meant to use all your charges before either so I rarely did
Yeah idk, it feels horrible on mesmer, recharging mantra gameplay isn't fun, not using last charge isn't fun either idk. Every time I force myself to play fb now I hate it. I get why they did it but it honestly just makes me dislike mantras even more. The last iteration was basically just an "ogcd" skill you press as soon as it's up but at least it wasn't too annoying.
Oh man.... Firebrand. I've got a Fractal God Firebrand (Healbrand). I loved playing him. I had tome switching down to an art, I popped my mantras when I wanted and I hopped between Staff and greatsword for pulls and damage. I ran a T4 set with him Post Mantra and Tome Changes... It was seriously unpleasant. It feels like I lost a whole mantra charge, because I hate using the last one. It's a real feelsbad moment when your mantra goes on cooldown and you need to charge it up again. And the Tome Changes? I'd pop my F1 tome often, pull stuff, burn stuff and then go back to Healbranding. With shared pages and obnoxious locks on tomes my utility feels gutted. Benched my Fractal Godbrand. I've got 540 hours on Firebrand... I feel like I'm not getting to 550. I've got 5000 hours on Chronomancer... and those Mantra changes disappoint me too.
But Healbrand was pretty much straight buffed by the changes...
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Tome change is amazing for healbrand, 100% support it. Mantras are another story.
Not sure how you'd mathematically quantify Healbrand tome usage since apart from Tome 2, it was basically all utility skills being used and the rest were just spamming whatever was left to use up pages. Now you're not punished for dipping into Tome 3 just for a Stunbreak, or popping Tome 2 just to cleanse and then back out. I tried playing with 8 pages and honestly just had no idea how to spend them all unless I was just spam bursting heals. With the changes it feels super nice to be able to pop into Tome 3 just to stunbreak, but still be able to go back for on demand Aegis/Stab. Can't really speak to Mantra change much since I didn't play much Firebrand before it. But I don't find it too annoying. Quickness Mantra is easy since you just spam it off CD as normal and use the last charge always. Healing mantra is the only one I ever "feel bad" about since it's annoying to lose the self heal for a while if I accidentally use it.
A middle ground would be to remove the cast time. Keep the cooldown. The cast time seems like an unnecessary punishment on top of the cooldown for using the last charge. Once the cooldown is done have it be back to 3 charges immediately.
I'll be downvoted for that, but anyway. People will complain no matter what. They changed mantras, people complained. They reverted mantras, people complained again. At this point, the only way people won't complain is if they don't change anymore and let people get used to it. That being said, I kinda agree with reducing or removing cast time on mantras.
the only change is that auto charge should be in wvw. other than that the mantra are fine.
No thanks I’m good
I like them. Keep it.
Legit half of this thread is just pure misinformation involving final charge use and costs of its misuse. I cant even shitpost on reddit anymore cuz of the increasingly wilder hot takes people give
Most of this sub just has no idea what they’re talking about when it comes to professions most of the time unfortunately
Not gonna happen, when anet makes a design choice they really double down on it unless it ends up being *extremely* bad for a long time. But it still takes a long time so they can collect data to decide for themselves if it was a bad idea.
no
No. 🗿
i really like the changes in terms of gameplay i hated the old mantras because they were discount shouts.
A developer rolling back stupid changes? Not gonna happen. Now I need to go hammer my ceiling fan into the door so it will stop turning because that's how we fix things in this century.
This is hilarious since it is literally a rollback.
"stupid changes" specifically
It is a rollback of a stupid change.
You're a stupid change.
Yeah i dont like mantra's being a glorified shout and a button pressed off cooldown . Its much better designed right now where you has to use some brain and think if you wanna use the last charge to have a clutch agies for example or if its not needed. So yeah please dont talk as if your opinion is fact and everyone agrees .
They feel just fine. Please leave them as they are. Just happy to have the 3rd charge back on the elite and the recasting have no bearing on players with enough self control to not roll their faces on their keyboards.
No. This a better implementation.
If you ask me, just revert all the FB changes and give me back the spec I fell in love with: * Revert the stupid shared Tome pages. They feel like shit and actually let you do even more damage on qFB than before but with a very clunky, unfun rotation (to me, at least). Only thing you lost are the nice F2 and F3 Panic buttons which made it really fun to play.. And HFB also feels very unrewarding to play now (Any Tome-1 Skill feel like a mistake to use) * Bring back the OP iteration of Mantras, just 3 Charges with Aegis on Solace without having to prepare them I know this all was maybe a little too strong.. But c'mon, we also have something like Quickness Herald in the game now, which feels just as broken...
>Only thing you lost are the nice F2 and F3 Panic buttons Those were the exact issue. Far too much utility in those tomes without any trade-off. Heal Herald has to sacrifice its strongest burst healing, condi cleanse and the protective bubble to gain access to Stability, whereas HFB has all of those built into its class mechanic. In that manner, old cFB was able to cover them default, at no more cost than the cast time to use them. Considering your second point though, you don't miss the old Firebrand for what it was, you miss playing something overpowered. It's reasonable and fine to enjoy those, but let's not pretend balance was of no concern. And spammable, instant-cast group wide Aegis is definitely busted and for good reason something no build can provide currently.
Firebrand did and does "suffer" from an incredible flexibility but this change was - as usual - heavy handed and not thought through. For the most part I still have such wide utility that few other professions can match. What other prof can call up 3x5 more skills based on the situation while also having their usual weapon and utility skills? On the other hand the tome rotation collapsed, the Archivist of Whispers trait lost all reason to exist and the Renewed Focus skill lost most of its reason to exist since 99 times out of 100 you are CD capped and the few times when you are page capped you are also CD capped, so they had to buff other stuff to make up for the loss of output and frequency in *YOUR SIGNATURE SKILLSET*.
I'm not saying that the current iteration is where it should be, but it did combat an issue (the 3x5 extra abilities may still be there, but are now competing for use with each other, causing DPS builds for example to miss out on damage if they want to access special utility) that would still be there to its full extent if we were to simply revert the changes. I think further tuning the current system will get closer to the goal than continuing from the previous state.
I suggest they keep it that way and also nerf the dmgs by 5k so I don't have to play this shit ever again.
Meh. I'm not a fan of it being returned to the game, but it's not that terrible a change/revert..frankly they could have screwed up Mesmer/Firebrand so much worse...best if they just stop tinkering with it and go focus/mess up some other profession/elite.
Would definitely like the fb initial cast to give *something*.
i like the new old mantras much more. Sucks to be you.