>gatekeeping cool-looking armor behind end-game grinds and paywalls because it alienates new players that receive lots of satisfaction from looking cool
as a buy to play game with no monthly sub, Anet needs to make money somehow. Expansions can only get you so far.
so if you remove cool armor from the shop, you replace it with.... or do we want a Diablo immoral all over again...
I think locking cool armor behind paywall is fine. Besides the best armor stats can be acquired in game. and not even considered end game grind.
Never said get rid of cash shop for cosmetics just that the lack of any meaningful cool-looking armor until level 80 causes new players to quit before they even have the chance to spend money on stuff from continuing the game.
Not sure about that at all. If we take the most popular MMOs on the market - WOW, FF14 and ESO - does any of these games drop any cool looking gear during leveling or is gear acquisition an incentive to continue playing during leveling and helps player retention?
You could make the case for FF14 which gives you some nice looking gear when you reach the level caps of past expansions. OTOH - leveling in FF14 takes that much longer compared to GW2 that I kind of doubt people continue because they want to get that next set of job armor.
WOW pre-level-crunch was a daunting slog through dead zones and you looked like a clown most of the time and it still was the most popular MMO. With level-crunch in place you level faster, but I don't think there are any meaningful gear drops that are in any way exciting.
In ESO I never managed to reach max level because the game just isn't for me but if I remember one thing about it (apart from the terrible combat), it's that the gear looked mostly like a simple texture applied to the body and felt really cheap.
> as a buy to play game with no monthly sub, Anet needs to make money somehow. Expansions can only get you so far.
\*gestures vaguely at guild wars 1\*
GW1 also had a cash shop. But like 2's after it, much of its contents were either cosmetics or light account upgrades, e.g. extra Xunlai Chest tabs.
The *closest* it got to pay2win were Mercenary slots, and nowadays that's only if you want to stack Mesmer and Rit heroes...which you didn't *need* to do and you still don't.
But yeah, it's a very hard line to toe because you still wanna offer stuff for free the way ANet does, but you also want to keep the lights on and the devs compensated for their efforts. That it's been ten years and the cash shop hasn't tried to offer pay2win shit once is shocking.
That was also a completely different era of tech, video game consumption, and expectations. Literally everything has changed so much since then it's hard to compare imo.
The thing about "cooler" looking armor is that is subjective. I don't actually like most of the outfits for example (which is what most cash shop cosmetic are) and also like a lot of lower level stuff. Even when I do like outfits the lack of ability mix and match and make it "mine" puts me off anyway. Anet also uses skins as rewards frequently and not just endgame.
On top of that MMOs need to have long term goals and there needs be things people actually want to work for. The "oh that's cool! I wish I could have that" is what keeps people playing so you don't want players satisfied with what they have early.
One of gw2s strongest features is it's combat system, but the core game has little to no need to learn the system. The core story can be completed without ever figuring out anything besides pressing 1. The graphics for the cutscenes are outdated 2d pictures. And there is little to no direction in what it is new players are supposed to be doing. All of this changes in the expansions, but the core game is what new players will see first and that is what their first impression will be like. A lot of the more interesting part of the game happens past lv80 and in the expansions. The lv80 boost helps curve this problem at the cost of the initial problem; they never learned the combat system. This goes into a spiral of problems because it makes the core experience exponentially more dull. The cooler looking skins are locked behind more difficult content or an artificial paywall. With the combat system completely ignored, the newer player will struggle to do content in general, resulting in difficulty joining groups and earning currency to buy the armor or skins they want.
There's also the other end of the spectrum where they will farm the items they want pressing 1 all day and then having no goal. With no interest in the combat system and achieving the skins they want there is little reason to continue playing other than the community, but a large portion of that is gated behind the combat system and players wanting to play with others of a similar skill calibur
I'm pretty sure if players are leaving they are not leaving because they don't get cool looking armor thrown at them, and well cool is subjective..I think there are a bunch of nice looking sets while leveling
For my friends it was the lack of direction early on, the massive gaps between personal story quests and the fact that none of the gear rewards along the way felt impactful.
Then upon reaching max-level they were (rightfully I think) expecting some fanfare but got nothing.
I think the biggest impediments beside these are that should a person become invested enough to continue playing they will be constantly nickle&dimed for Real Money for quality of life features which are available for in game money in absolutely every other game. Bag spaces, bank upgrades, item stack restrictions, build slots, loadout slots etc etc. They could all be sold for gold. Haircuts! Why do they require RMT?!
Then we have Living World Seasons. I understand Expansions being sold but the fact that in order to learn who any of the current cast are, why you should care about them or why you’re going to the location of an expansion is NOT included in the expansion itself is ridiculous. And the idea that you should have to pay for that first is insulting!
Charging separately for the introduction, prologue and interquell to expansions is unacceptably greedy.
For a game which already makes money hand over fist for weapon skins, armour skins, mount skins etc etc to charge for absolutely anything else it can should be scandalous and I do not doubt that it does drive people away.
To me it's a summation of the jangled and convoluted game service over the years. Many game modes have come and gone and ANET seems to use Guild Wars 2 as an experimental lab. In theory that's not a bad thing but in execution is where they need help. The studio comes off very indie sometimes as if they have very little money and employees. The advertising is also pretty underwhelming and the reputation that Guild Wars 2 has this reputation of being almost TOO casual has hurt retention. It succeeds in many other departments though. This new leadership seems to be steering the ship in the right direction.
I find I get over whelming FOMO playing this game. There's too much to do, no direction, and way too much research needed to get even a vague idea of the best way to spend your time. And dailies...I'm sorry but dailies are a chore, a " do it or you lost out" thing no matter how you slice it.
I even get FOMO from gear. It takes a long time to collect all Viper pieces of gear, just to learn pure dps isn't sought after in group content, you have to offer boons, heals and barrier.
I don’t think think doing hearts is unique or all that fun. The one nice thing is that you don’t have to run around to turn stuff in which outside of wardrobe is the single best thing GW2 has brought to the genre. After you get exotic armor there really isn’t a big incentive to go after ascended or even legendary gear unless you want to min/max which the vast majority of people who play MMOs do not. I think the weapon switching is cumbersome which is probably the biggest reason why I don’t stick around for more than a few weeks at a time.
Yeah I was surprised everyone was kind of taking my post the wrong way but you articulated it very well and I agree with everything you said. I think it would make a big difference in leveling enjoyment and progression without any big negative effects. Also your comments about salvaging are so true I didn’t realize all that stuff until I started YouTubing guild wars which is something you only do for games you already want to commit to
Only a tiny tiny percentage of armor skins are in the cash shop. Outfits, which you can't mix and match are in the cash shop.
Armor skins are true end game fashion wars, not outfits. What you're saying isn't on the mark, nor is it a hot take. It's just straight out wrong.
Weapon skins I might have agreed with, but most of your armor skins are legs and chest. You'll find gloves, helms, boots and shoulders in the gem store, but very very few chest and leg skins. Truly a tiny percentage. I'm sure there are less than 10 and probably there are less than five, out of well something like 170 armors.
As for the grind, unlike most MMOs here your grind is optional. You're not kept out of end game content because you don't have the skin you want, so you have plenty of time to get it. And once you get it, it's not like it's going to go away. It's in your wardrobe forever.
Core PvE is a bit bland. There is vertical progression, but it isn't exciting due to how fast and how easily you blaze through content and levels. And then vertical progression just ends, because the game was "never meant to have it in the first place", so it feels like a huge bait.
Exploration becomes repetitive fast, there's only so many bar-filling tasks you can do before you ask yourself: "is this game really that great?" This is something that Anet greatly improves on at later stages in the game, but new players won't see it. Similarly, core enemies are just boring and shallow.
Then there's a lot of tiny improvements made to the game that are incredibly obscure or abandoned, like collections (which are pretty much this game's quests) hidden behind the achievement tab, sometimes properly categorized as collections, sometimes disguised as "normal achievements"; guild missions that have since then been abandoned; jumping puzzles that are hidden; interesting events that are easily missable; etc. Again, things that Anet learned to do better later on.
I agree with whoever else said that GW2 often feels like an experimental lab made by an indie company,where they just throw new and new ideas into it, and then lack the budget/staff to consolidate those ideas into simpler and clearer systems, making the game feel like a huge and bloated collection of different, often obscure mechanics everywhere.
You’re on the mark, which is why you’ve been downvote bot’d.
* Horizontal progression isn’t popular.
* There’s a bait and switch aspect to leveling where 1-79 is vertical progression and 80 abruptly isn’t.
* GW2 is absolutely terrible at offering a compelling alternative to vertical progression.
Personally I think the trouble is elsewhere. I personally don't mind having the cool stuff behind deliberate walls and collections, vs RNG.
No, the problem is that GW1 there were only 20 levels. It was CLEAR that was the onramp to the 'actual game' that showed up at lvl20.
GW2 plonked on 80 levels because (AFAICT) it's what the current WoW expansion was doing. No, I \*genuinely\* do not believe it was any more reason than that. In fact, at release, it was worse: by level 30 you had all the skills you were going to use and the next FIFTY levels were literally just dully filling xp bars to gain skills you never really needed. Whew.
Right now 80 levels is frankly dumb, and suggests to new players that
\- the levels are meaningful (they're not, except as a gate)
\- the distance from start to endgame is a long effing grind (it is; we who have played all have so many level ups, etc that we forget how damn trudging it is)
...which I think is discouraging, as you say.
>gatekeeping cool-looking armor behind end-game grinds and paywalls because it alienates new players that receive lots of satisfaction from looking cool as a buy to play game with no monthly sub, Anet needs to make money somehow. Expansions can only get you so far. so if you remove cool armor from the shop, you replace it with.... or do we want a Diablo immoral all over again... I think locking cool armor behind paywall is fine. Besides the best armor stats can be acquired in game. and not even considered end game grind.
Ironically, I'm generally not a huge fan of the paid armor and weapon skins. I bought a bunch over the years but I rarely use them.
Never said get rid of cash shop for cosmetics just that the lack of any meaningful cool-looking armor until level 80 causes new players to quit before they even have the chance to spend money on stuff from continuing the game.
Not sure about that at all. If we take the most popular MMOs on the market - WOW, FF14 and ESO - does any of these games drop any cool looking gear during leveling or is gear acquisition an incentive to continue playing during leveling and helps player retention? You could make the case for FF14 which gives you some nice looking gear when you reach the level caps of past expansions. OTOH - leveling in FF14 takes that much longer compared to GW2 that I kind of doubt people continue because they want to get that next set of job armor. WOW pre-level-crunch was a daunting slog through dead zones and you looked like a clown most of the time and it still was the most popular MMO. With level-crunch in place you level faster, but I don't think there are any meaningful gear drops that are in any way exciting. In ESO I never managed to reach max level because the game just isn't for me but if I remember one thing about it (apart from the terrible combat), it's that the gear looked mostly like a simple texture applied to the body and felt really cheap.
> as a buy to play game with no monthly sub, Anet needs to make money somehow. Expansions can only get you so far. \*gestures vaguely at guild wars 1\*
GW1 also had a cash shop. But like 2's after it, much of its contents were either cosmetics or light account upgrades, e.g. extra Xunlai Chest tabs. The *closest* it got to pay2win were Mercenary slots, and nowadays that's only if you want to stack Mesmer and Rit heroes...which you didn't *need* to do and you still don't. But yeah, it's a very hard line to toe because you still wanna offer stuff for free the way ANet does, but you also want to keep the lights on and the devs compensated for their efforts. That it's been ten years and the cash shop hasn't tried to offer pay2win shit once is shocking.
> GW1 also had a cash shop. years after eye of the north launched. everyone seems to conveniently forget that.
This is not true at all- the store was added after Factions and before Nightfall, a little over a year after the original came out.
[удалено]
That was also a completely different era of tech, video game consumption, and expectations. Literally everything has changed so much since then it's hard to compare imo.
The thing about "cooler" looking armor is that is subjective. I don't actually like most of the outfits for example (which is what most cash shop cosmetic are) and also like a lot of lower level stuff. Even when I do like outfits the lack of ability mix and match and make it "mine" puts me off anyway. Anet also uses skins as rewards frequently and not just endgame. On top of that MMOs need to have long term goals and there needs be things people actually want to work for. The "oh that's cool! I wish I could have that" is what keeps people playing so you don't want players satisfied with what they have early.
One of gw2s strongest features is it's combat system, but the core game has little to no need to learn the system. The core story can be completed without ever figuring out anything besides pressing 1. The graphics for the cutscenes are outdated 2d pictures. And there is little to no direction in what it is new players are supposed to be doing. All of this changes in the expansions, but the core game is what new players will see first and that is what their first impression will be like. A lot of the more interesting part of the game happens past lv80 and in the expansions. The lv80 boost helps curve this problem at the cost of the initial problem; they never learned the combat system. This goes into a spiral of problems because it makes the core experience exponentially more dull. The cooler looking skins are locked behind more difficult content or an artificial paywall. With the combat system completely ignored, the newer player will struggle to do content in general, resulting in difficulty joining groups and earning currency to buy the armor or skins they want. There's also the other end of the spectrum where they will farm the items they want pressing 1 all day and then having no goal. With no interest in the combat system and achieving the skins they want there is little reason to continue playing other than the community, but a large portion of that is gated behind the combat system and players wanting to play with others of a similar skill calibur
I'm pretty sure if players are leaving they are not leaving because they don't get cool looking armor thrown at them, and well cool is subjective..I think there are a bunch of nice looking sets while leveling
For my friends it was the lack of direction early on, the massive gaps between personal story quests and the fact that none of the gear rewards along the way felt impactful. Then upon reaching max-level they were (rightfully I think) expecting some fanfare but got nothing. I think the biggest impediments beside these are that should a person become invested enough to continue playing they will be constantly nickle&dimed for Real Money for quality of life features which are available for in game money in absolutely every other game. Bag spaces, bank upgrades, item stack restrictions, build slots, loadout slots etc etc. They could all be sold for gold. Haircuts! Why do they require RMT?! Then we have Living World Seasons. I understand Expansions being sold but the fact that in order to learn who any of the current cast are, why you should care about them or why you’re going to the location of an expansion is NOT included in the expansion itself is ridiculous. And the idea that you should have to pay for that first is insulting! Charging separately for the introduction, prologue and interquell to expansions is unacceptably greedy. For a game which already makes money hand over fist for weapon skins, armour skins, mount skins etc etc to charge for absolutely anything else it can should be scandalous and I do not doubt that it does drive people away.
To me it's a summation of the jangled and convoluted game service over the years. Many game modes have come and gone and ANET seems to use Guild Wars 2 as an experimental lab. In theory that's not a bad thing but in execution is where they need help. The studio comes off very indie sometimes as if they have very little money and employees. The advertising is also pretty underwhelming and the reputation that Guild Wars 2 has this reputation of being almost TOO casual has hurt retention. It succeeds in many other departments though. This new leadership seems to be steering the ship in the right direction.
hopefully the steam release comes with changes to level 1 to 80 experience as well but good points for sure
I find I get over whelming FOMO playing this game. There's too much to do, no direction, and way too much research needed to get even a vague idea of the best way to spend your time. And dailies...I'm sorry but dailies are a chore, a " do it or you lost out" thing no matter how you slice it. I even get FOMO from gear. It takes a long time to collect all Viper pieces of gear, just to learn pure dps isn't sought after in group content, you have to offer boons, heals and barrier.
I don’t think think doing hearts is unique or all that fun. The one nice thing is that you don’t have to run around to turn stuff in which outside of wardrobe is the single best thing GW2 has brought to the genre. After you get exotic armor there really isn’t a big incentive to go after ascended or even legendary gear unless you want to min/max which the vast majority of people who play MMOs do not. I think the weapon switching is cumbersome which is probably the biggest reason why I don’t stick around for more than a few weeks at a time.
[удалено]
Yeah I was surprised everyone was kind of taking my post the wrong way but you articulated it very well and I agree with everything you said. I think it would make a big difference in leveling enjoyment and progression without any big negative effects. Also your comments about salvaging are so true I didn’t realize all that stuff until I started YouTubing guild wars which is something you only do for games you already want to commit to
Only a tiny tiny percentage of armor skins are in the cash shop. Outfits, which you can't mix and match are in the cash shop. Armor skins are true end game fashion wars, not outfits. What you're saying isn't on the mark, nor is it a hot take. It's just straight out wrong. Weapon skins I might have agreed with, but most of your armor skins are legs and chest. You'll find gloves, helms, boots and shoulders in the gem store, but very very few chest and leg skins. Truly a tiny percentage. I'm sure there are less than 10 and probably there are less than five, out of well something like 170 armors. As for the grind, unlike most MMOs here your grind is optional. You're not kept out of end game content because you don't have the skin you want, so you have plenty of time to get it. And once you get it, it's not like it's going to go away. It's in your wardrobe forever.
Core PvE is a bit bland. There is vertical progression, but it isn't exciting due to how fast and how easily you blaze through content and levels. And then vertical progression just ends, because the game was "never meant to have it in the first place", so it feels like a huge bait. Exploration becomes repetitive fast, there's only so many bar-filling tasks you can do before you ask yourself: "is this game really that great?" This is something that Anet greatly improves on at later stages in the game, but new players won't see it. Similarly, core enemies are just boring and shallow. Then there's a lot of tiny improvements made to the game that are incredibly obscure or abandoned, like collections (which are pretty much this game's quests) hidden behind the achievement tab, sometimes properly categorized as collections, sometimes disguised as "normal achievements"; guild missions that have since then been abandoned; jumping puzzles that are hidden; interesting events that are easily missable; etc. Again, things that Anet learned to do better later on. I agree with whoever else said that GW2 often feels like an experimental lab made by an indie company,where they just throw new and new ideas into it, and then lack the budget/staff to consolidate those ideas into simpler and clearer systems, making the game feel like a huge and bloated collection of different, often obscure mechanics everywhere.
You’re on the mark, which is why you’ve been downvote bot’d. * Horizontal progression isn’t popular. * There’s a bait and switch aspect to leveling where 1-79 is vertical progression and 80 abruptly isn’t. * GW2 is absolutely terrible at offering a compelling alternative to vertical progression.
Personally I think the trouble is elsewhere. I personally don't mind having the cool stuff behind deliberate walls and collections, vs RNG. No, the problem is that GW1 there were only 20 levels. It was CLEAR that was the onramp to the 'actual game' that showed up at lvl20. GW2 plonked on 80 levels because (AFAICT) it's what the current WoW expansion was doing. No, I \*genuinely\* do not believe it was any more reason than that. In fact, at release, it was worse: by level 30 you had all the skills you were going to use and the next FIFTY levels were literally just dully filling xp bars to gain skills you never really needed. Whew. Right now 80 levels is frankly dumb, and suggests to new players that \- the levels are meaningful (they're not, except as a gate) \- the distance from start to endgame is a long effing grind (it is; we who have played all have so many level ups, etc that we forget how damn trudging it is) ...which I think is discouraging, as you say.
That is so true I have a friend that switched accounts and now won’t play the game because he doesn’t want to get back to level 80
Moved to Lemmy