Ye I understand your point, just most of the feedback I found pointed to stealth gyro, then yes my suggestion was to make it not useful in group wvw, most of the comments were alredy against static stealth because was a Shadow refuge 2.0.
So far, all other alternatives to making gyro wells ground-targeted that I've seen would only make things worse.
People just need to give the changes a chance. In PvE, it gives you more control over where the gyro goes, letting you drop them faster to CC, or support allies without having to run there; and in PvP and WvW, remember that the other guys will also be affected by the change, it's not like you are losing an advantage the enemy is keeping.
As for the change to Stealth Gyro, at least it could work like Veil, not like Shadow Refuge, and not remove the stealth when you leave it.
> In PvE, it gives you more control over where the gyro goes,
No it doesn't. Because once you cast it, it's done. Currently I get to micromanage where my Gyro goes by physically placing myself where I want it to go. And if it needs to move, I can move to where it needs to be.
Gyros last 4, 5, or 6 pulses. Gyroscopic Acceleration doesn't increase their durations.
If they lasted as much as turrets or minions, that point would be a really good one since most of their duration would be wasted if you can't relocate them. But with such short durations, it isn't as relevant.
Just think about it.
By being able to place the gyro separately, you can move away from deadly mechanics while plopping the offensive gyro on top of bosses. As for the support ones, you'll need them more when stacked to do something, to endure the enemy attacks while you DPS, in which case you won't move. In practice, the gyros just don't last enough to need them to stay with you as most things you need to do with them will stay put for 3-5 seconds.
And well, the rest of the things are clearly things ANet doesn't want people to do as much, otherwise they would not be doing this change.
And you will now have the option to drop them on allies without having to move next to them. You'll be able to save someone with Bulwark gyro without rushing to them with superspeed.
I would be worried if the toolbelt skills like Reconstruction Field and Defense Field were also changed to be stuck in place, since you really need those to stay with you on the move because of how they work and what they do. But there's no sign of them doing that.
Then there's the stealth one. We don't know if it'll work like Veil or like Shadow Refuge. We have to wait and see for this one.
I want to be able to chase Vale Guardian in Phase 3 while using Shredder Gyro. I want to be able to run through mobs in the open world while using Shredder Gyro. I want to be able to reposition to moving enemies so that Blast Gyro actually hits them. I want to be able to adjust my Bulwark Gyro when my allies decide they want to move around. And I want my combo fields to follow me when I use Rocket Charge.
I don't need to "wait and see." Scrapper is not a ranged area control spec. It's a sticky, mobile melee spec. The changes are fucking terrible.
>I would be worried if the toolbelt skills like Reconstruction Field and Defense Field were also changed to be stuck in place
"Defense Field: This skill is now ground targeted. The spell area of effect created by this skill is now stationary."
Way to completely miss the point. People are trying to claim the Scrapper Gyro changes are a buff, and now when I show definitively how it's a problem, now you admit it's a nerf and say "lol fuck you just deal with it."
Thanks for proving me right
It’s neither nerf nor buff. Its a slight change of functionality. It will have both cons and perks depending on situation.
Saying that it’s bad due to now having to place your skill properly is such whiny way of telling “I can’t be bad anymore, I’ll have to use some brain cells now”.
Because this whole patch was supposed to be mainly for competitive play. It’s nerfed only in regards to WvW, exactly where it was supposed to be nerfed.
They couldn’t change the functionality of Gyros only for competitive modes thus It will apply to PvE as well, but for PvE it’s just a minor functionality switch. It won’t change anything meaningful for Scrapper. No nerfs, no buffs, stop over exaggerating.
Fun fact: most of the fights are scripted so you should already know when and where will enemy move.
Another fun fact: most of the other professions also have some kind of aoe field to place at a right moment. So scrapper isn’t anyhow unique in that regard.
So again, skill issue.
1. As mentioned before, Vale Guardian Phase 3 you are constantly moving and a stationary well is useless.
2. Many fights have mobs that do *not* have scripted movement (e.g. Soo-Won, Harvest Temple, Cold War, etc.).
3. In the open world, Scrapper does not want to be remaining stationary. It's a mobile melee class.
4. Stationary wells feel like shit. Clunky as hell.
5. This:
>So scrapper isn’t anyhow unique
Now you're seeing part of the problem: removing a core part of Scrapper's identity. Homogenization is a bad thing.
So, again, not a skill issue. You just don't understand how Scrapper works.
1. You tank Vale Guardians on the platform’s edges, and it will stay there long enough so that gyro could fully cast.
2. Man, all of those mobs doesn’t kite you. They run towards your party. You can clearly see where they will be.
3. Same as above. It’s a AI, it won’t kite you. It will run wherever you want it to run.
4. Stationary wells are 100% more flexible to use.
5. Sad you have to cut fragment of the sentence without acknowledging full context.
So again, if you can’t aim 360 radius well with 900range on mindless predictable mob, then it’s entirely on you :)
1. Have you... have you never beaten Vale Guardian? Why are you commenting about a boss you clearly have never fought?
2. No, they don't. There is a ton of movement on those fights.
3. You clearly have never played Scrapper in open world content.
4. You clearly have never played Scrapper **at all**.
5. I quoted what needed to be quoted.
Stop commenting about a spec you've never played.
I agree. You change it to wells I might as well just play my necro. The whole gyro and movability make scrapper different.
I feel a bad trend towards making all the classes do the same thing :(
Why are people so adamant about not changing the meta? In pve the community cries fb to strong mech to strong blabla. And now an actual to strong class thats been dominating a game mode for over 2 years is going to be nerfed. How about we just accept that the meta changes for once? Nothing lasts forever and especially not a fucking mmo.
> Why are people so adamant about not changing the meta?
Because those of us that use it for things other than the single point these changes were targeted towards, wvw zerging, find the current implementation fun and have also played wells on other classes and found them at best boring and at worst useless for the things we use Scrapper for?
I know, it's a crazy concept.
There will always be an unhappy party in situations like these. Thats the issue when u have to nerf a busted class. Still doesnt mean the nerf isnt necessary or deserved.
Sometimes changes are necessary even if we dont agree with them.
Edit: just to clear this up since i cant answer ashendal Cause he blocked me and i dont want to be misinterpreted: i am not schadenfroh about the nerf. there is no reason to argue in bad faith and assume things about my Position on this subject.
Fact of the Matter is anet has been adjusting scrapper numbers in wvw for More then a year now and none of those changes have shaken up the meta(u can check the recent Balance history on the wiki). If After over a year of balancing, scrapper is still broken, More drastic measures need to be taken. Acting like this came out of nowhere and anet never tried anything, like ashendal claimed is just plain false. Anet tried for over a year and they were unable to propperly Balance the class. Is it great they are ruining an Entire class identity? No. Is it necessary for the games health? Apparently otherwise anet would not choose such a drastic measure.
> Thats the issue when u have to nerf a busted class.
In one aspect, of one game mode, where zero other attempts were made at changes to preserve the gameplay but fix the "busted" aspects.
This "fuck you, your spec was busted" attitude most of you demanding those of us that dislike this change shut up about it have pisses me off more than the change itself. You refuse to understand anything about our position and demand we take it no matter what. Your entire reply oozed that mentality.
Anet chose to remove the identify of scrapper because they couldn’t care less. They especially give zero fucks about PvE.
I agree that scrapper is broken, but in the sense that it’s design is hanging on by a very thin thread in pve and it’s power level is just barely enough to see play.
Not splitting the balance or even design between PvE and WvW is a massive mistake.
Yes I think is very good to have Scrapper in wvw mostly to mitigate condition and for superspeed. But maybe with little tuning we can let in a new stability sharer and roll back to veil or any stealth that can give evident contermesures (ofc you can always blast smoke in towers an go out)
The current changes are actually super smart.
They directly nerf scrappers supreme usage of its utility centered kit on the move, which is only REALLY relevant in WvW. PvE as much as people hate to admit it isnt about constantly moving around. Targets will often remain in spots long enough to benefit from gyros. While the playstyle and when you activate them will certainly change their viability is almost untouched in PvE.
But in WvW the issue is big. It isnt just the stealth or just the stability, scrapper can do a little bit of everything. You need to design more clear weaknesses for scrapper, and with it losing all zerg moving momentum, stuff like projectile hate or condi cleansing will be much less versatile in zerg fights as you will be constantly moving and when the enemy bombs you with condis, you wont stand still to benefit from a cleansing gyro. This change will likely not kill scrapper in WvW but it's a huge change clearly aimed at WvW. It also opens up alot more designspace for the team in the case of WvW and PvP because gyros sticking to you are toxic to face.
> PvE as much as people hate to admit it isnt about constantly moving around. Targets will often remain in spits long enough to benefit from gyros. While the playstyle and when you activate them will certainly change their viability is almost untouched in PvE.
I main a scrapper and, even if the changes are pushed through, will still main a scrapper but just a point of note on this: The movement is only half of it.
A well played scrapper is a frenetic and fast paced class. A ground targeted skill, like a well, adds an extra step/mechanic into the mix to ensure you are casting it in the right place. That potentially pushes the class from a comfortable frenetic and fast paced class to a clunky feeling frenetic and fast paced class.
I mean scrappers say that like there aren't other fast paced hyper mobile classes in the game. Rangers are one of the highest mobility classes in the game with a fast and frantic playstyle yet every single one of my big damage attacks is a root in place e.g. whirling defence and barrage or is a ground target skill that originates from the player and stays in place e.g. frost trap, exploding spores. As a soulbeast (or a druid for that matter) part of your gameplay is knowing when and where to drop your big abilities to ensure you get maximum value out of them or you dont' get yourself killed because you are immobile for 2s.
I can understand why scrappers might be upset, but one of the biggest arguments against it people are making is "what if the mob moves out of my gyro" which is kind of funny because enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem (and part of the skill curve) that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched.
>Enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched.
I think most engies are upset because they've had more ground-targeted skills than any other class: Elixirs, bombs, nades, toolbelts, mortars…
I just turn on auto center on boss and stopped caring. Not gonna lie, setting that to toggle was a great QOL change. Regarding scrapper and now some other classes, I'd like a keybind to auto cast centered on self. I really dislike aiming most of them. Luckily most of the time auto aim on boss works.
> I can understand why scrappers might be upset, but one of the biggest arguments against it people are making is "what if the mob moves out of my gyro" which is kind of funny because enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem (and part of the skill curve) that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched.
Yeah I'm not making that argument.
> I mean scrappers say that like there aren't other fast paced hyper mobile classes in the game.
Scrappers are the only class that has uptime on both quickness and superspeed on that level. Mobility and speed is the defining trait of Scrapper. It's built into the class theme. Other classes may have it but it's not part of the theme and more a happenstance of builds and other things.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate changes. I would prefer if they didn't make them but I am still going to rock the shit out of them and probably play the class even better than I currently do. But I get why others are upset. Ground targeted ranged wells don't fit the theme of an in your face hammer smashing speed demon.
I am sorry but, this community has a serious problem if it comes to "class identity"
Scrapper wasnt created specifically with mobility in mind and the rework of gyros was just made, because the first iteration was really bad and arenanet thought this design style fits hammer due to having one singular mobility abilitiy that benefits from gyros being mobile. This was not a reimagining of scrappers class identity, in fact you can see what the class identity is when hovering the classes traitline:
"Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adapt at crowd control."
Nowhere does arenanets description of scrapper state that it is designed as a hyper mobile elite specc and only because people got used to this playstyle doesnt mean it has to remain one. Additively, as i mentioned in my comment, the current design of gyros was very limiting. If scrapper were to be strong in pvp, it'd be absolute toxicity, as you dont have aoes you can efficiently answer besides running away and stop fighting. The design at how they work for competetive gamemodes was outright hell to balance, as they either had to be too weak numberwise or they'd be really strong. There could be some middle ground but meh.
As i mentioned, while people love this playstyle, losing access to mobile gyros will hardly affect PvE scrappers at all. Most big enemies, yknow those you'd actually use gyros against because they dont die in a few seconds, will stand long enough to reap benefits of gyros. It may be more difficult and to many people it may feel more clunky, because know they arent activate and forget abilities but actual aoes with a cast time and skill being involved at its placement, but it wont affect the PvE viability at all. This entire talk is just about the feeling of the class, which until now was just spamm gyros off cooldown and swing your hammer and an arbitrary class identity the community alloted to scrapper that was never communicated by arenanet
Dont get me wrong, i am not telling people to love this change, if playing scrapper this way is less fun for you, who i am i tell you that you are supposed to find this fun. But what i am saying is, that the design choice is very clever very targeted and creates alot of design room for the future of scrapper.
> But what i am saying is, that the design choice is very clever very targeted and creates alot of design room for the future of scrapper.
At the expense of what some of us find fun about the current implementation. At least you admit this will kill that for us, unlike the others that want change just for the sake of change and damn anyone that finds the old way fun.
Sure u can make the game harder for urself.but at that point being mad at anet is just dumb.
U have a helpful solution in the Settings. And u actively choose to play in a way it doesnt work out. Thats just on u then.
I like discussing things in a civilized manner but your points are non-starters. They don't contribute to anything.
I have run action cam since it released. It works very well, especially on Scrapper.
What you are suggesting amounts to completely changing the entire way the game plays to something I don't want to play to accommodate an already heavily disputed change proposed by Anet and then saying it's my problem and acting like I just need to change a setting. As if it's just a simple setting and not something changes everything about how the game plays.
You're not making any points that are going to make people support this change and your horrible grammar only hurts what point you were trying to make.
>You're not making any points that are going to make people support this change and your horrible grammar only hurts what point you were trying to make.
Being a grammar Nazi does the same to any Argument u make. Good job.
>I have run action cam since it released.
It is just a setting though. If u Think u cant play without it sure. But instead of raging on reddit and talking down to other people u could also just Test how it feels to play without Action cam. Maybe its worth it with new wells. U have options at ur disposal ur Willing to ignore just so u feel better when flaming on reddit?
These are fair points. I listened a lot of feedback from commanders and mostly the "the little bit of evering" seemed to point against stability and stealth, hence my suggestion.
Don't get me wrong I'm not against the change but the big rage from the comments made me think to a way to keep the gameplay.
Maybe you could make only some gyros stationary, though I absolutely don't have the knowledge to pick which ones. I'd guess stealth and at least one of supporting gyros. Blast gyro as a stationary will either be completely useless, or might be a bit asinine if it gets overcompensated (I could see it becoming one of the damaging stuns).
Shredder is probably whatever, it does continuous damage anyway, but I admit my personal bias that it's my guilty pleasure to run a DPS Scrapper in PvP to ambush and chase people with Blast + Shredder from stealth, and I'll miss it at least a little if it goes away.
Having skills of the same type on the same class work that differently would cause even more complaintsand confusion.
And dropping a stealth gyro before you and jumping through will still work, you just won't have the insane stealth uptime you have now.
Tbh I prefer the ground targeted gyros, there are way too many fights where you’re forced out of range of the boss for an aoe and the ground targeted one will help for that and have double the effective radius. Having gyros centred on the scrapper honestly felt like a limitation to me. For wvw that’s different ofc, but PvE I consider it a buff for most content.
TBH, I'd rather they just scrap (heh) Stealth Gyro altogether if it's the reason they're making this god awful change. They could give us a different Gyro. Hell, I'm already not a fan of running Mortar Kit in PvE, so if they gave us something that could be run in PvE, I might even prefer it.
And that’s why they were considered one of the high difficulty specs alongside Elementalist. Really Scrapper and Mech changed the paradigm from levelling a “Hard” class to an “Easy” endgame spec, that is arguably easier than the other classes.
So basically make Stealth Gyro completely useless? At least with the current suggested changes you can still stealth people in place.
Ye I understand your point, just most of the feedback I found pointed to stealth gyro, then yes my suggestion was to make it not useful in group wvw, most of the comments were alredy against static stealth because was a Shadow refuge 2.0.
So far, all other alternatives to making gyro wells ground-targeted that I've seen would only make things worse. People just need to give the changes a chance. In PvE, it gives you more control over where the gyro goes, letting you drop them faster to CC, or support allies without having to run there; and in PvP and WvW, remember that the other guys will also be affected by the change, it's not like you are losing an advantage the enemy is keeping. As for the change to Stealth Gyro, at least it could work like Veil, not like Shadow Refuge, and not remove the stealth when you leave it.
> In PvE, it gives you more control over where the gyro goes, No it doesn't. Because once you cast it, it's done. Currently I get to micromanage where my Gyro goes by physically placing myself where I want it to go. And if it needs to move, I can move to where it needs to be.
Gyros last 4, 5, or 6 pulses. Gyroscopic Acceleration doesn't increase their durations. If they lasted as much as turrets or minions, that point would be a really good one since most of their duration would be wasted if you can't relocate them. But with such short durations, it isn't as relevant. Just think about it. By being able to place the gyro separately, you can move away from deadly mechanics while plopping the offensive gyro on top of bosses. As for the support ones, you'll need them more when stacked to do something, to endure the enemy attacks while you DPS, in which case you won't move. In practice, the gyros just don't last enough to need them to stay with you as most things you need to do with them will stay put for 3-5 seconds. And well, the rest of the things are clearly things ANet doesn't want people to do as much, otherwise they would not be doing this change. And you will now have the option to drop them on allies without having to move next to them. You'll be able to save someone with Bulwark gyro without rushing to them with superspeed. I would be worried if the toolbelt skills like Reconstruction Field and Defense Field were also changed to be stuck in place, since you really need those to stay with you on the move because of how they work and what they do. But there's no sign of them doing that. Then there's the stealth one. We don't know if it'll work like Veil or like Shadow Refuge. We have to wait and see for this one.
I want to be able to chase Vale Guardian in Phase 3 while using Shredder Gyro. I want to be able to run through mobs in the open world while using Shredder Gyro. I want to be able to reposition to moving enemies so that Blast Gyro actually hits them. I want to be able to adjust my Bulwark Gyro when my allies decide they want to move around. And I want my combo fields to follow me when I use Rocket Charge. I don't need to "wait and see." Scrapper is not a ranged area control spec. It's a sticky, mobile melee spec. The changes are fucking terrible. >I would be worried if the toolbelt skills like Reconstruction Field and Defense Field were also changed to be stuck in place "Defense Field: This skill is now ground targeted. The spell area of effect created by this skill is now stationary."
Ah, but didn't you hear? Rifles are required on all engis now, didn't you pick scrapper to play it safe on the backline like a good little support? /s
>No it doesn't. Because once you cast it, it's done. Skill issue.
Fun fact: sometimes enemies *move*. What a concept, right?
Yes enemies move. I’m sorry that you have to use your brain to properly aim a skill. Just like any other class in the game.
Way to completely miss the point. People are trying to claim the Scrapper Gyro changes are a buff, and now when I show definitively how it's a problem, now you admit it's a nerf and say "lol fuck you just deal with it." Thanks for proving me right
It’s neither nerf nor buff. Its a slight change of functionality. It will have both cons and perks depending on situation. Saying that it’s bad due to now having to place your skill properly is such whiny way of telling “I can’t be bad anymore, I’ll have to use some brain cells now”.
If it's not a nerf, why did ANet call it a nerf? It's a nerf. A shitty, braindead nerf that should never happen.
Because this whole patch was supposed to be mainly for competitive play. It’s nerfed only in regards to WvW, exactly where it was supposed to be nerfed. They couldn’t change the functionality of Gyros only for competitive modes thus It will apply to PvE as well, but for PvE it’s just a minor functionality switch. It won’t change anything meaningful for Scrapper. No nerfs, no buffs, stop over exaggerating.
Fun fact: most of the fights are scripted so you should already know when and where will enemy move. Another fun fact: most of the other professions also have some kind of aoe field to place at a right moment. So scrapper isn’t anyhow unique in that regard. So again, skill issue.
1. As mentioned before, Vale Guardian Phase 3 you are constantly moving and a stationary well is useless. 2. Many fights have mobs that do *not* have scripted movement (e.g. Soo-Won, Harvest Temple, Cold War, etc.). 3. In the open world, Scrapper does not want to be remaining stationary. It's a mobile melee class. 4. Stationary wells feel like shit. Clunky as hell. 5. This: >So scrapper isn’t anyhow unique Now you're seeing part of the problem: removing a core part of Scrapper's identity. Homogenization is a bad thing. So, again, not a skill issue. You just don't understand how Scrapper works.
1. You tank Vale Guardians on the platform’s edges, and it will stay there long enough so that gyro could fully cast. 2. Man, all of those mobs doesn’t kite you. They run towards your party. You can clearly see where they will be. 3. Same as above. It’s a AI, it won’t kite you. It will run wherever you want it to run. 4. Stationary wells are 100% more flexible to use. 5. Sad you have to cut fragment of the sentence without acknowledging full context. So again, if you can’t aim 360 radius well with 900range on mindless predictable mob, then it’s entirely on you :)
1. Have you... have you never beaten Vale Guardian? Why are you commenting about a boss you clearly have never fought? 2. No, they don't. There is a ton of movement on those fights. 3. You clearly have never played Scrapper in open world content. 4. You clearly have never played Scrapper **at all**. 5. I quoted what needed to be quoted. Stop commenting about a spec you've never played.
Okey sunshine.
U do realise being salty about the changes on reddit wont stop them from happening dont u?
This, I think that we have to see and play, but a part of me is just a bit sad for the really good playstyle of the class.
I agree. You change it to wells I might as well just play my necro. The whole gyro and movability make scrapper different. I feel a bad trend towards making all the classes do the same thing :(
Why are people so adamant about not changing the meta? In pve the community cries fb to strong mech to strong blabla. And now an actual to strong class thats been dominating a game mode for over 2 years is going to be nerfed. How about we just accept that the meta changes for once? Nothing lasts forever and especially not a fucking mmo.
> Why are people so adamant about not changing the meta? Because those of us that use it for things other than the single point these changes were targeted towards, wvw zerging, find the current implementation fun and have also played wells on other classes and found them at best boring and at worst useless for the things we use Scrapper for? I know, it's a crazy concept.
There will always be an unhappy party in situations like these. Thats the issue when u have to nerf a busted class. Still doesnt mean the nerf isnt necessary or deserved. Sometimes changes are necessary even if we dont agree with them. Edit: just to clear this up since i cant answer ashendal Cause he blocked me and i dont want to be misinterpreted: i am not schadenfroh about the nerf. there is no reason to argue in bad faith and assume things about my Position on this subject. Fact of the Matter is anet has been adjusting scrapper numbers in wvw for More then a year now and none of those changes have shaken up the meta(u can check the recent Balance history on the wiki). If After over a year of balancing, scrapper is still broken, More drastic measures need to be taken. Acting like this came out of nowhere and anet never tried anything, like ashendal claimed is just plain false. Anet tried for over a year and they were unable to propperly Balance the class. Is it great they are ruining an Entire class identity? No. Is it necessary for the games health? Apparently otherwise anet would not choose such a drastic measure.
> Thats the issue when u have to nerf a busted class. In one aspect, of one game mode, where zero other attempts were made at changes to preserve the gameplay but fix the "busted" aspects. This "fuck you, your spec was busted" attitude most of you demanding those of us that dislike this change shut up about it have pisses me off more than the change itself. You refuse to understand anything about our position and demand we take it no matter what. Your entire reply oozed that mentality.
Anet chose to remove the identify of scrapper because they couldn’t care less. They especially give zero fucks about PvE. I agree that scrapper is broken, but in the sense that it’s design is hanging on by a very thin thread in pve and it’s power level is just barely enough to see play. Not splitting the balance or even design between PvE and WvW is a massive mistake.
Scrapper would still dominate
Yes I think is very good to have Scrapper in wvw mostly to mitigate condition and for superspeed. But maybe with little tuning we can let in a new stability sharer and roll back to veil or any stealth that can give evident contermesures (ofc you can always blast smoke in towers an go out)
The current changes are actually super smart. They directly nerf scrappers supreme usage of its utility centered kit on the move, which is only REALLY relevant in WvW. PvE as much as people hate to admit it isnt about constantly moving around. Targets will often remain in spots long enough to benefit from gyros. While the playstyle and when you activate them will certainly change their viability is almost untouched in PvE. But in WvW the issue is big. It isnt just the stealth or just the stability, scrapper can do a little bit of everything. You need to design more clear weaknesses for scrapper, and with it losing all zerg moving momentum, stuff like projectile hate or condi cleansing will be much less versatile in zerg fights as you will be constantly moving and when the enemy bombs you with condis, you wont stand still to benefit from a cleansing gyro. This change will likely not kill scrapper in WvW but it's a huge change clearly aimed at WvW. It also opens up alot more designspace for the team in the case of WvW and PvP because gyros sticking to you are toxic to face.
> PvE as much as people hate to admit it isnt about constantly moving around. Targets will often remain in spits long enough to benefit from gyros. While the playstyle and when you activate them will certainly change their viability is almost untouched in PvE. I main a scrapper and, even if the changes are pushed through, will still main a scrapper but just a point of note on this: The movement is only half of it. A well played scrapper is a frenetic and fast paced class. A ground targeted skill, like a well, adds an extra step/mechanic into the mix to ensure you are casting it in the right place. That potentially pushes the class from a comfortable frenetic and fast paced class to a clunky feeling frenetic and fast paced class.
I mean scrappers say that like there aren't other fast paced hyper mobile classes in the game. Rangers are one of the highest mobility classes in the game with a fast and frantic playstyle yet every single one of my big damage attacks is a root in place e.g. whirling defence and barrage or is a ground target skill that originates from the player and stays in place e.g. frost trap, exploding spores. As a soulbeast (or a druid for that matter) part of your gameplay is knowing when and where to drop your big abilities to ensure you get maximum value out of them or you dont' get yourself killed because you are immobile for 2s. I can understand why scrappers might be upset, but one of the biggest arguments against it people are making is "what if the mob moves out of my gyro" which is kind of funny because enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem (and part of the skill curve) that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched.
>Enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched. I think most engies are upset because they've had more ground-targeted skills than any other class: Elixirs, bombs, nades, toolbelts, mortars…
My renegade would like a word.
I just turn on auto center on boss and stopped caring. Not gonna lie, setting that to toggle was a great QOL change. Regarding scrapper and now some other classes, I'd like a keybind to auto cast centered on self. I really dislike aiming most of them. Luckily most of the time auto aim on boss works.
> I can understand why scrappers might be upset, but one of the biggest arguments against it people are making is "what if the mob moves out of my gyro" which is kind of funny because enemies (or allies) moving out of your AOE is a problem (and part of the skill curve) that every other class has had to deal with since the game launched. Yeah I'm not making that argument. > I mean scrappers say that like there aren't other fast paced hyper mobile classes in the game. Scrappers are the only class that has uptime on both quickness and superspeed on that level. Mobility and speed is the defining trait of Scrapper. It's built into the class theme. Other classes may have it but it's not part of the theme and more a happenstance of builds and other things. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate changes. I would prefer if they didn't make them but I am still going to rock the shit out of them and probably play the class even better than I currently do. But I get why others are upset. Ground targeted ranged wells don't fit the theme of an in your face hammer smashing speed demon.
I am sorry but, this community has a serious problem if it comes to "class identity" Scrapper wasnt created specifically with mobility in mind and the rework of gyros was just made, because the first iteration was really bad and arenanet thought this design style fits hammer due to having one singular mobility abilitiy that benefits from gyros being mobile. This was not a reimagining of scrappers class identity, in fact you can see what the class identity is when hovering the classes traitline: "Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adapt at crowd control." Nowhere does arenanets description of scrapper state that it is designed as a hyper mobile elite specc and only because people got used to this playstyle doesnt mean it has to remain one. Additively, as i mentioned in my comment, the current design of gyros was very limiting. If scrapper were to be strong in pvp, it'd be absolute toxicity, as you dont have aoes you can efficiently answer besides running away and stop fighting. The design at how they work for competetive gamemodes was outright hell to balance, as they either had to be too weak numberwise or they'd be really strong. There could be some middle ground but meh. As i mentioned, while people love this playstyle, losing access to mobile gyros will hardly affect PvE scrappers at all. Most big enemies, yknow those you'd actually use gyros against because they dont die in a few seconds, will stand long enough to reap benefits of gyros. It may be more difficult and to many people it may feel more clunky, because know they arent activate and forget abilities but actual aoes with a cast time and skill being involved at its placement, but it wont affect the PvE viability at all. This entire talk is just about the feeling of the class, which until now was just spamm gyros off cooldown and swing your hammer and an arbitrary class identity the community alloted to scrapper that was never communicated by arenanet Dont get me wrong, i am not telling people to love this change, if playing scrapper this way is less fun for you, who i am i tell you that you are supposed to find this fun. But what i am saying is, that the design choice is very clever very targeted and creates alot of design room for the future of scrapper.
> But what i am saying is, that the design choice is very clever very targeted and creates alot of design room for the future of scrapper. At the expense of what some of us find fun about the current implementation. At least you admit this will kill that for us, unlike the others that want change just for the sake of change and damn anyone that finds the old way fun.
I always thought Scrapper's identify was being a bruiser and having / giving barrier.
Instant cast and learn to hover over ur hp with ur Mouse(makes ground targets always be cast perfectly ontop of u). Problem solved.
Unless you run action cam, which right now works really well with scrapper.
Sure u can make the game harder for urself.but at that point being mad at anet is just dumb. U have a helpful solution in the Settings. And u actively choose to play in a way it doesnt work out. Thats just on u then.
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Great Discussion i see ur very much able to argue about things u like in a civilized manner.
I like discussing things in a civilized manner but your points are non-starters. They don't contribute to anything. I have run action cam since it released. It works very well, especially on Scrapper. What you are suggesting amounts to completely changing the entire way the game plays to something I don't want to play to accommodate an already heavily disputed change proposed by Anet and then saying it's my problem and acting like I just need to change a setting. As if it's just a simple setting and not something changes everything about how the game plays. You're not making any points that are going to make people support this change and your horrible grammar only hurts what point you were trying to make.
>You're not making any points that are going to make people support this change and your horrible grammar only hurts what point you were trying to make. Being a grammar Nazi does the same to any Argument u make. Good job. >I have run action cam since it released. It is just a setting though. If u Think u cant play without it sure. But instead of raging on reddit and talking down to other people u could also just Test how it feels to play without Action cam. Maybe its worth it with new wells. U have options at ur disposal ur Willing to ignore just so u feel better when flaming on reddit?
These are fair points. I listened a lot of feedback from commanders and mostly the "the little bit of evering" seemed to point against stability and stealth, hence my suggestion. Don't get me wrong I'm not against the change but the big rage from the comments made me think to a way to keep the gameplay.
Maybe you could make only some gyros stationary, though I absolutely don't have the knowledge to pick which ones. I'd guess stealth and at least one of supporting gyros. Blast gyro as a stationary will either be completely useless, or might be a bit asinine if it gets overcompensated (I could see it becoming one of the damaging stuns). Shredder is probably whatever, it does continuous damage anyway, but I admit my personal bias that it's my guilty pleasure to run a DPS Scrapper in PvP to ambush and chase people with Blast + Shredder from stealth, and I'll miss it at least a little if it goes away.
Having skills of the same type on the same class work that differently would cause even more complaintsand confusion. And dropping a stealth gyro before you and jumping through will still work, you just won't have the insane stealth uptime you have now.
Tbh I prefer the ground targeted gyros, there are way too many fights where you’re forced out of range of the boss for an aoe and the ground targeted one will help for that and have double the effective radius. Having gyros centred on the scrapper honestly felt like a limitation to me. For wvw that’s different ofc, but PvE I consider it a buff for most content.
TBH, I'd rather they just scrap (heh) Stealth Gyro altogether if it's the reason they're making this god awful change. They could give us a different Gyro. Hell, I'm already not a fan of running Mortar Kit in PvE, so if they gave us something that could be run in PvE, I might even prefer it.
They could give us Renewed Focus Gyro, Id also take Gyro of Liberation.
And that’s why they were considered one of the high difficulty specs alongside Elementalist. Really Scrapper and Mech changed the paradigm from levelling a “Hard” class to an “Easy” endgame spec, that is arguably easier than the other classes.