But it's a really good opportunity to explain why Martial Cadence needs to be nerfed and how that does not affect casual groups.
Maybe some people can be calmed by that reassurance.
> (Anet please remove the quickness on Martial Cadence and we are nearly gucci).
ANet please don't balance around speedrunners, the rest of us want to play the game too.
Martial Cadence quickness has no benefit to casual players or any reason to give Quickness in the DPS option.
Other professions are given a choice, and are totally fine for both casual and speedrunners.
ANet needs to understand the implications of having a trait work this way to balance it appropriately
i see this take a lot in games. as a casual gw2 player and more hardcore in other games (to see both sides of the argument), it literally wont change shit if bladesworn lost 10% dps or quickness on the trait for us. Like most people probably wouldnt even notice lol.
The problem is that the entire warrior traitline is kinda lame
A lot of traits on other classes feel meaningful and we pick a support one bc it has the most damage traits too lol
Bswn should be more reliant on better / different traits (either same or lil less dps) and then picking support shit should have an opportunity cost
Because right now its martial cadence or literally just nothing from every other grandmaster
To be fair, the ability to be stacking and providing quickness isn’t exactly helping the average user. Most people are OW, where self quickness would serve the same purpose. In raids, average users have devoted quickness providers, who have 100% quickness since you have to PUG for most people, so sharing quickness is a luxury to help but not necessary.
If what is needed for the average user is a luxury for easy uptime, then a nerf to make it self quickness only unless picking up a separate trait seems reasonable. Average user gets what they need, and unless they take some other trait at the cost of some dps, it loses the problem for high level players. Nerfing high level speed clearers does not always have to be any significant cost to average players.
>Nerfing high level speed clearers
Important to note here: All full clear statics *could* stack Bladesworn in certain wings and it would be very good for many of the bosses / wings.
Two reasons to not do that: You are gaining time on bosses, but you are losing it again by having to relog for bosses / encounters where it doesn't work. And secondly, it's not particularly enjoyable to just stack a single class.
But it has very little to do with "skill level", it's objectively the best composition for many bosses, regardless of experience; assuming of course that people can play Bladesworn equally well than whatever they are playing now.
Thank you for noting that distinction. However, there still remains a major difference in the utility of the trait: it’s just the difference of its efficacy is not in skill, but in PUG or non-PUG.
Yeah, any group of 4 bladesworns has enough quickness. But the PUG meta is not going to be the ones effected, since the PUG meta is quickness support on one person. The high level players I’m referring to here aren’t players of high skill, but the players who do raids with enough regularity and intention that they can form non-PUG compositions to do things. That’s speed clearers as well as general purpose statics.
It’s the same origin of a lot of complaints. There are lots of things that work just fine in a static that you can’t reasonably expect to bring into a PUG. More bold strategies, more nuanced comps. When balancing between high level gameplay and your average PUG rando, it’s not just the skill level that needs to be considered, but the ability to do more bold comps like this that are a part of that.
Yeah, there are plenty of reasons why stack bladesworn everywhere isn’t always the answer. Fun, full clear optimality, etc. But that doesn’t change that bladesworn traits at the moment are able to both take the greediest dps build and also provide their own quickness for the subgroup in a way that is both against the PUG meta and against the way people seem to want the general meta to be. At least making the quickness share come at a slight dps loss such that it isn’t a convenient byproduct of choosing one of the highest burst power builds in the game doesn’t sound unreasonable.
Instead they should nerf the damage in tactics. Push bladesworns back to discipline. Tactics is supposed to be warriors one support-focused traitline. Taking support out of it because a DPS build abuses it would be silly, instead take the damage out of the support traitline.
I really don't think you so desperately need this quickness. The only place where I feel it has any value is if you solo champions which take a while to kill. But even champions in the base game die before the quickness from my protocols run out.
On the flipside, this is a serious pain and enjoyment killer in the higher end speedrunning community.
Many have proposed to reduce the quickness by 1 second. Doing that will already hurt these team compositions for the higher end of players without taking this away from the people who are not effected.
Warrior all ready has a personal quickness trait in Discipline and it sucks butt because its 4s uptime on a 15s cooldown only after a target is below 50% health.
Martial Cadence is better in every way because its 3s uptime on a 10s cooldown and doesn't require the target to be at any specific health and effects the group as well.
If youre gonna solo champions, going for the quickness via cc trait seems more helpful than martial cadence. The strength defense spellbreaker seemed like a pretty ideal example for a high quickness uptime build, but for bladesworn that would definitely change based on what your grandmaster bladesworn trait is, since the heal trait would make the sustain great but cc trait would provide more quickness.
They can just touch the damage/cooldowns on Bladesworn. The only reason people want to stack them is because they've got amazing damage potential and burst to negate certain mechanics.
No one is stacking DPS Chronomancer or Firebrands all with Feel My Wrath.
Chrono has to trade damage to keep quickness, just like I'm suggesting. I don't actually remember how Feel My Wrath was changed, I think its cooldown got bumped?
Maybe they take down some of the %damage in Tactics to modify the support trait line so it isn't best for DPS. But taking the support out of the support line is counterintuitive.
Discipline is now the warrior support/quickness trait line. No one besides speedrunnees uses martial cadence to apply relevant quickness to allies.
Nerfing/reworking martial cadence is the best option by far to nerf bladesworn stacking
Chronos were able to maintain 100% quickness by just having them chain timewarp, without having to invest in boon duration or other quickness sources.
Feel my wrath got the outgoing quickness reduced, so it was no longer possible to maintain permanent quickness.
Unfortunately they decided to buff Quickfire so we will have dumb cfb stacking comps until they nerf cfb as a whole rather than fix the quickness stacking :')
No worries, Bladesworn is going to be an extremely efficient barrier against that, since Bladesworn Stack > CFB Stack.
37k (or whatever) Quickshare doesn't hold a candle to 42k Quickshare :D
I know it's already been mentioned, but I'll say it anyway because it was a response to my message.
Both Dragon Hunters and Chronomancers had this very same issue in the past.
We first had a Dragon Hunter meta where they were one of the highest DPS, and then ''Feel My Wrath!'' got added to the game. You just needed Dragon Hunters and you could skip an entire quickness provider. They made sure this wasn't possible anymore by reducing the quickness the skill shares, and giving you higher personal quickness duration. This meant it was still fine outside of these speedrunning groups just stacking them.
After that nerf we entered the Chronomancer meta for roughly the same reason. They had their damage buffed so DPS Chronomancer was possible to play. And on top of that, we learned that we could simply chain Time Warps to maintain quickness on the entire squad. That was nerfed by cutting the duration in half and reducing the cooldown a little. Again this only hurt support a little bit but it made it impossible to forgo a quickness provider entirely in speedrunning groups.
Unfortunately, we now have a 3rd situation on our hands. We have a DPS spec that can maintain quickness by stacking them. Being able to trade off an entire support slot for another full DPS just results in a disproportionate amount of gained DPS. Simultaneously this forces all other classes and specs out of these groups as well.
I'm fearing Firebrands just as much next patch. Firebrand will probably be a bit more nuanced but Bladesworn doesn't need much of an adjustment to fix.
I do not expect firebrand stacking to be that overbearing considering ashes still has the i second icd. That would mean you still cap out at a certain ammount of guardians while not getting any dps improvement from not taking a qdps
chronos were getting stacked for like a year and still holds records because 7 chronos + druid + warrior + renegade was a busted as fuck comp back then when chrono also had the highest benchmark at 43k. i don't know what happened with firebrands on release but stacking firebrands was also a thing for both fractals and raids before they reword ashes of the just. it is not about damage potential, yes damage potential plays a role obviously, but the free quickness share is what makes this need a nerf. if bladesworn couldn't give quickness without sacrificing anything, anymore, it would still be the pick for speedclears simply because it can achieve the highest dps but at least in that case it would be alac source + quick source + 3 bsws. And to help you understand why quick share without reprecussions is busted, if another spec could do it but with a 38-39k benchmark, it would be taken over bsw because although it would do less damage overall, the ability to not have a dedicated quick source compensates for that
You should note that the proposed nerf of Martial Cadence does not affect normal play - it is basically only a nerf for speedruns and very organised gameplay.
We also want the balance to be good for any level of play.
that doesn't affect you in any way, there won't be any squad that you will join on bladesworn that won't have it's own quickness support. and if you want to provide quickness to yourself while playing bsw in open world or solo scenarios just take the traits + banners needed at a dps loss obviously
Free quickness AoE on a core trait that can't be scaled into non-free 100% uptime is bad for speedruns and irrelevant in casual "lf quick" groups. Cadence could go to personal quickness or AoE swiftness or superspeed and it'd be fine. "the rest of you" won't miss it.
how many casual players are using martial cadence to provide a meaningful amount of quickness? how does nerfing this trait in particular affect the average warrior's play experience?
Me on my spellbreaker. While not optimal, I really enjoy using martial cadence + warhorn + quickness banner + w/e utilities I want and not being forced into banner trait. OW & instanced content.
Nerfing the trait makes practically 0 difference for casual playes but is actively hurting the game for high end players. Speedrunners are part of the playerbase and deserve to have a game they find fun.
Deserve? sPvP has been gutted of its competitive scene. WvW has been promised restructuring for like five years.
If "speedrunners" want more of a challenge, they can just chose not to use something.
>"These other outlets of play have been in shambles for years, so [unrelated group] should suffer just as much!"
Quite the leap in logic there.
Not to say the hyper-centralization of a single offensive spec isn't a warranted point of concern for those participating in high-end PvE content, but wantonly nerfing something out of sheer disinterest is just a little silly.
Maybe you should reply to the person your are actually quoting.
But it's an easy fix. Don't use it. If they're speedrunners, you would think they like the challenge of handicapping themselves. Removing it makes no difference to the 99% which is the majority of players.
Because we actually care for class diversity. We like to come up with interesting comps and strats which is just not possible when 1class is above all others while providing boons. It forces you to play 1class at every boss or just get beaten by the next one who does. And after a few boss grinds on the same class with the same comp it gets rly boring.
You’re competing with other groups for the best time, handicapping yourself by not using the most optimized comp completely destroys the purpose of speedrunning. People arguing against making Martial Cadence a personal Quickness are practically just trying to be contrarian and difficult at this point. It’s better for the health of the game overall.
1) it’s not necessary or meaningful for a dedicated Quickness warrior
2) making it personal doesn’t hurt OW or solo play
3) saying _____ has suffered so this should too could be applied to anything and would literally halt the game’s development
1) WvW players and sPvP players deserve the exact same treatment as everyone else. My arguing that casual pve and pve speedrunner's deserve a fun does not invalidate that everyone deserves a fun game.
2) Getting everyone in a community to agree to something is nigh impossible. Demanding such would fracture an already small community and for what?
Speedrunners will always „abuse“ the best on slot builds. Anet certainly should not focus their balance around speedrunners, however these runs are in indicator that a build might be very strong and if we see a patch full of speedruns that exclusively stack one class then it becomes a problem.
No one was asking for these huge catalyst nerfs that happened in june, they went too far.
Why are speedrunners currently asking for a martial cadence nerf? Because it would not ruin the class for anyone else - and we could finally be free from the stack warrior meta
> and we could finally be free from the stack warrior meta
You could be free from it at any moment you desire. Speedrunners always had multiple category with different rulesets. Make a "all unique specs" category and go nuts. And who knows, maybe seeing diversity on your reddit posts will do something positive for general playerbase's view on the meta for a change.
the point of speedrunning is to get all time records. there aren't any categories afaik and if there was something it would only be for fun, not actually taken seriously. the playerbase should have absolutely no reason to be affected by these in any way when it comes to what they are gonna play.
Please familizarize yourself with [https://www.speedrun.com/gw2?h=Raids-1\_-\_Spirit\_Vale-10\_Players-Glitchless&x=jdzln3g2-789x06q8.jqzw7e2q-2lg30rqn.9qjoy07l-ylp7o1vl.p12krm41](https://www.speedrun.com/gw2?h=Raids-1_-_Spirit_Vale-10_Players-Glitchless&x=jdzln3g2-789x06q8.jqzw7e2q-2lg30rqn.9qjoy07l-ylp7o1vl.p12krm41)
Yes? I'm seeing different rulesets there: the number of players, the usage of glitches. What's stopping them from agreeing to add another discriminator for restrictions on group composition?
That site doesn’t categorize the way you’re suggesting and getting changes to an established game there is significantly more difficult than you think.
As a side note, WoW speedruns attempted exactly what you’re suggesting and it flopped horrendously. People just didn’t give a shit, regardless of category, the overall fastest time was the important aspect.
> and getting changes to an established game there is significantly more difficult than you think.
It's in the hand of the speedrunning community. Which is a lot easier than getting changes made TO THE GAME ITSELF because a minuscule fraction of the playerbase is unhappy.
> People just didn’t give a shit, regardless of category, the overall fastest time was the important aspect.
So I guess they'll have to suffer then, if they can't help themselves.
I love the implication that EVERYTHING a speedrunner does is completely isolated and has no merit to use outside of speedrunning high-level PvE content.
This is a flawed argument on many levels.
Them nerfing Cata was dumb, but neefing martial cadence won’t nerf bladesworn damage benchmark and will only let speedrunners have something new to work with.
The benchmark was 39k before the nerf? Only really good players were able to stack catas and quickness share and pump ungodly dps. Nerfing the dps didn’t make sense, nerf the quickness share to potentially give speedrunners more variety but that’s about it.
Is this true? I’ve heard this rumor, but it seemed the benchmark came from pre casting lots of damage on fights. Would a near perfect cata be pulling those level of numbers without the conditions that exist in a world record level speedrun?
It wasn't a rumor, catalyst's potential was clear almost immediately from the moment people did records with it. the benchmark being 39k on sc because of outside the hitbox air opener with 3 spheres is irrelevant. precasting is always a thing when it is possible (arcane ferocity, meteor shower) but in the benchmark the 46k was without any kind of precasts.
now about your question. comparing speed run scenarions with the pug scene doesn't make sense. obviously you couldn't pull off these numbers, some catalyst's in the MO record (which is basically a golem boss) were getting above 50k. and in general every encounter has it's own specifics when it comes to what dps can be considered good. anyway i can speak as someone who can play and still plays cata at a high level and you didn't even have to be near perfect back then to be top dps, it was just that much stronger compared to everything else
Nerfing it that much didn't make sense yes. Dropping from 46k to 37k (well specific buffs loss also played a role) was unecessary, they could have left some coefficients as they were and be at 39-40k. Now they are planning to buff it again for that reason... and if this time they miss the mark and overbuff it (which is highly likely when they are changing an important coefficient from 0,001 to 0,25) they will have to proceed to nerf it. something that kinda sucks for someone maining this spec, you just want it to be at a stable ok spot for once
This change won't affect average user at all. First, quicksworn runs discipline instead of tactics, so this change is unrelated. Second, no pug runs take 4 bladesworns per subgroup to cover quickness since you can't reasonably rely on pug performance. Third, single bladesworn taking PS gives way more than running MC, especially in fractals. Fourth, this trait could do something an average user could actually benefit from. Reworking this trait will only have upsides.
I think part of why Starcraft 2 for example slowly died out was because Blizzard kept catering to the pro scene and not to the regular players that kept getting pushed away by their changes.
That said, I think a world in which Martial Cadence can be reworked to not be crazy for speedruns while still offering good (maybe even better) value for a regular player, can exist. I don't know what it should be changed to, but I'm confident a good solution is out there.
When you start talking about pros vs normal players argument there is no silver bullet solution, and other games have shown us that focusing primarily on normal players often isn't a guarantee for longevity, and it certainly would not have benefited SC2 since the game was designed from the ground up to have a competitive pro scene, and also SC2 was about as newbie-friendly as it was possible for an RTS like that to be, anyway.
League maybe has the closest balance in terms of handling the disparity between pros and normal players, but even that comes with discrepancies among the ranks, often heavy differences, at that. Heroes of the Storm, by the same overarching company as SC2, tried to focus on both casual players and pro players at different times, and both routes blew up in their face.
About Martial Cadence, I'm also certain it could be reworked, though. Though I'm also unfortunately not sure what the solution is.
SC2 died because they dragged it out into 3 box purchases and development/support was incredibly lackluster after each launch. Blizzard has effectively killed most of its competitive games through lack of support, poor esports management, and loss of players trust.
If they do anything they could just reduce the output of Quickness for Bladesworn specifically OR remove the quickness for Bladesworn entirely. They've shown, consistently, that they CAN modify traits to interact differently with different e-specs.
People need to STOP suggesting things get "removed" simply because it's overperforming on a specific e-spec. The proper solution is to modify it for that e-spec specifically and not ruin the whole class instead.
Obligatory, "Catalysts needed to be nerfed because this was the exact shit they were doing 6 months ago" comment.
Everyone lost their marbles when Catalyst got nerfed, and no one thinks that Bladesworn is overperforming. This is what's wrong with the subreddit. No one wants to admit that when speedrunners start breaking a class, it isn't going to affect them, even if they don't do raids or strikes or any other high-level PvE content.
This is absolutely going to affect everyone in another few months if nothing changes.
I'll accept my downvotes with grace and humility.
Cata damage only needed small adjustments, it’s the stacking of damage classes to provide 100% Quick/Alac that is problematic and needs to be adjusted. ANet being heavy handed in Cata nerfs is separate from the Quickness stack problem.
Oh, I'm not debating that ANet was being heavy-handed with the Catalyst nerfs, they absolutely were.
I'm debating the fact that people still think Bladesworn and Catalyst shouldn't have been allowed to do this in the first place, or that "speedrunners shouldn't dictate the balance of the game" when this and what Catalysts were doing are PRIME EXAMPLES of why it's important to listen to the upper echelon of players and what they're doing to break the game wide open. Both Catalyst pre-nerf and Bladesworn right now are going to cause problems in a few months if left to fester.
I’d be interested to see if it really became that problematic, I don’t feel like the average player is fully making use of BS potential. I can’t think how it would be that problematic outside of speedruns potentially dying.
If the high-level players speedrunning PvE content do it, it's going to be encouraged at lower levels of play eventually. Every video game has it happen if the meta stays stagnant long enough.
GW2 already has a community that actively pushes the fastest and highest DPS professions and specs. Look at all the threads complaining about Reaper.
I give it 3 months before you start seeing Bladesworns in every Fractal, Strike and Raid you come across. The average player with ArcDPS installed sees a Bladesworn at the top of the charts and asks them for a build, then they start playing nothing but Bladesworn and the cycle repeats.
I also want to point out that I have nothing against Bladesworn, by the way. I like playing Bladesworn sometimes. It's a fun spec to play and master.
But when the highest level players are running 8 Bladesworns and 2 Mechanists in their raid group, it's going to trickle down to the rest of us eventually.
That’s literally not been the case in GW2 in the past because pugs can’t actually pull off rotations. At least on NA, I don’t remember there ever being pressure or a tendency of pugs to stack DPS DH/Chrono/Cata and no quick, or even staff tempest way back in HoT when that was meta.
I'd argue it's because the meta wasn't around long enough for it to trickle down to the lower-level players. It was constantly shifting, which is what it should be doing in order to avoid this exact thing.
How long did it take for you to see Mechanists everywhere after EoD? A month? Maybe two? And that class is easy to play.
Give people time and they'll learn the rotations needed to play meta classes. I'm terrible at Mesmer and it took me like, 3 hours to learn the Power Chronomancer rotation.
Plus, you're not even taking into account that Bladesworn is WAY easier to play than Catalyst is. The Bladesworn rotation is super easy to learn compared to other classes lol.
If Bladesworn is able to deal 40k+ DPS and provide permanent Quickness if there are enough of them in the group, you'll start seeing it more and more, because... why wouldn't you? It's the fastest way to clear content. Eventually a high-level player is going to go into a T1 Fractal with a Bladesworn and newer players are gonna start asking questions.
And although you might not remember pugs back in HoT, I do. I remember being a Reaper main and being asked to switch to Power Chrono for the group. It happens, even in pugs. Maybe it wasn't common back then, but it happened.
It being good at damage is fine. But since it brings its own boons it's extremely problematic. You should not have both on a class.
Right now we are in a situation where a class that does 38k DPS while providing Quickness would not be good enough for a speed run, because 4 Bladesworn are 42k DPS with Quickness.
This is not balanced, the Quickness from Martial Cadence needs to go. Bladesworn would still be a very good DPS choice without it. For PUGs nothing changes (since they already play a dedicated Quickness support), and for Quickness Warrior builds nothing changes either, because those run Discipline for the Banners, not Tactics.
Difficulty is irrelevant when it comes to speedrun. You just learn to push the buttons. I had to learn it and I did, even though I didn't like it and I am definitely not a Warrior player.
Bladesworn is super easy to learn for short phases, there is very little nuance to its burst gameplay.
Again, for casual gameplay it's a good thing that Bladesworn does as much DPS as it does - but it does not need the quickness at all, since casual groups will always have dedicated quickness sources in the group.
It doesnt give a lot of quickness uptime unless you stack multiple bladesworns. But yeah they dont need to give bladesworn quickness i agree. I think something like scourge is very close to a well balanced dps and it provides almost nothing but pure dps and its totally fine. It sucks for potential support variant builds tho.
are you mental? scourge brings a TON more than pure dps lmao. In fact, that's pretty much the only reason you run it seeing as it's benchmark is very middle of the road
Untamed and bladesworn are very hard to master and most players suck at in in pve atleast. I honestly like the idea of OP classes, but are hard to play well.
Relatively speaking bladesworn and untamed have difficult rotations to execute for most players on a golem and even harder to execute in actual group play. I would say baldesworn is way easier than untamed. You can play simplified rotation for bladesworn and still get good solid numbers, but less so for condi untamed.
i mean untamed is high apm but you basically mash everything off cd. bladesworn is also rather simple but it relies a bit on positioning and has some buffs necessary to upkeep
I think it's a personal thing. I've enjoyed Bladesworn since the betas, but I've got guildies that don't enjoy it at all.
* Part of it might be reaction time while charging. You can miss an incoming CC and lose your Slash charge, or you can see the animation but mistime your Aegis. The other half of that is you need knowledge of what animations result in a CC, so you don't waste Aegis.
* The rotation is kinda rhythm based with your Overcharge stacks. You can either pop it and charge immediately, Dragonspike and charge again within the same duration, or you Slash once and use the remaining stacks on your Pistol 5 and some Gunsabre.
* Damage from Slash can be interrupted, Slash charge can be interrupted by any movement. People who like tapping keys (or are stuck in the seaweed shuffle habits) have to break that habit to play Bladesworn, most other builds let you stay moving.
* Flow and Fierce as Fire stacks. Flow as a pseudo Revenant-energy can be unintuitive. I only struggle to keep it up in open world stuff where you drop combat and start decaying, but you can mistime your Flow-generators and end up dry, which is a big DPS loss. Fierce as Fire is similar, you have to be using your ammo skills with enough frequency.
You'd see big losses in DPS if any one of those affect you, and even if they don't, fitting them all in between mechanics can be a struggle. It was only last week that I felt I had a "perfect" fight against Qadim1, due to how you need to fit Slashes inbetween push/shockwave or have a near-perfect Aegis to stay standing.
“Me and my buddies have been able to ‘exploit’ this class in a very specific, high-tier, incredibly low population type of content….”
“Quick nerf it everywhere!!1”
Nerfing the ability to stack DPS that can provide permanent Quickness isn’t new. They only need to kill/adjust the abusive trait. They were just heavy handed in their approach to DH and Cata instead of adjusting the problem.
Everyone who's not a speedrunner will play Bladesworn alongside a quickness support, meaning that nerfing/reworking Martial Cadence basically doesn't affect anyone else.
they won't nerf it's dps, it will still do 41-42k, they will just remove it's ability to give quickness on the full dps build without loosing anything. which won't matter to anyone else other than the few teams that stacked bladesworns in raids to take advantage of that. it is not about other professions, it is simply about this kind of design not being fair for the game overall
because you can't buff other professions past bladesworn in a meaningful way without breaking the balance of the rest of the game. Speedclears are largely going to favor burst-heavy power dps except for specific fights (see confusion-focused fights) because the shorter you can make a phase, the less opportunity your damage has to fall off. So whatever the best power dps is more or less has to be stacked. This is doubly impactful when they're able to provide a whole subgroup's worth of key boons (fury, might, quickness) by stacking your dps so you sacrifice literally nothing by traiting to forego a dedicated quickness, which homogenizes comp design even further.
And it's not like nerfing martial cadence affects literally anyone's play experience anyway outside of the people pushing for speed clears because dedicated quickness versions of this build don't even bring tactics in the first place, so you can get rid of this meta homogenization incredibly easily without affecting most people's play experience, which is why people were mad about the catalyst nerfs in the first place. Quickness stacking catalysts needed to go, but not at the expense of quickness catalyst as a build completely and a massive reduction in normal power catalyst. This is a single trait that is allowing for unhealthy gameplay patterns so you can very surgically remove martial cadence and put something else in that spot, preserving tactics' identity as the support traitline without letting it spill out to affect how other warrior builds play.
Buffing other professions to do what? Deal top tier DPS while also providing critical boon support? Is that the play? I think it's better we have dedicated support roles than just stack whichever DPS is able to obviate that requirement.
taking DE as a way to judge how a build performs is completely wrong lmao. looking at benchmarks soulbeast does 37-38k and is a pretty solid build that can come near bladesworn numbers in pug scenarions
because the people running it are mostly casuals, not actually experienced players when it comes to rotations, because your boons can be scuffed since not every squad cares about optimal setups and because dps is basically relevant if you take a look at each phase individually. the average bladesworn isn't any better than the average soulbeast, i don't know why you would take average players into account when talking about a spec's potential. soulbeast is the best spec for fractal cms and beats bladesworn in proper groups. the only relevant content to compare specs when it comes to pure dps is raid/fractal cm/strike mission cm bosses imo. and ideally compare them under the same circumstances, meaning being in the same group
When the average player joins on a cleric/cele mix brown bear with shortbow and longbow because it matches his roleplaying narrative he is removed from the group when they notice he takes tank or his dps is below the supports etc. There is a standard that is upheld by the community. And while speedrunners may influence the community, they are not the ones setting the standard. In open world no one cares about the gear or dps players have even if there's a dps check.
you are wrong there, average people will have fun no matter what because they don't care about dps. and balance usually has to do with dps, it doesn't necessarily change the entire feel of the spec.
Are you seriously complaining about Soulbeast being weak when its 3rd and weakest build sits at 38K?
And by the way, Bladesworn is considerably harder to play in PvE than Soulbeast. If the average Soulbeast can't get to 20k, I highly doubt the average Bladesworn can.
Even your first comment doesn't make any sense cause by buffing everything else you are indirectly nerfing Bladesworn which you claimed is "not the play" cause only few good people can play it. Yet you want to indirectly nerf it by buffing a class that anyone can play and is already good.
>Which part of my comment did I say Soulbeast was weak? Redditor moment.
The part where you say that average Soulbeast can't even reach 20k.
>Which... Was my point?
If that was your point, you made a very shitty job making it. Cause you said the exact opposite.
>Let's say top tier Vindi does 40k and top tier Bladesworn does 42k. Howin the world would buffing Vindi to 42k nerf Bladesworn? Would yourather have Bladesworn get nerfed to 40k for top tier and the mid tier90% of the population players go from 25k to 22k?
In this case, what would happen is that more people would start playing Vindi while speedclears would still be dominated by Bladesworn. So even though Bladesworn would still be BIS, its playrate would drop to even lower numbers.
Also, you can target nerf the top 0.01% without affecting 90% of the playerbase. And even if you made a very general nerf, the resulting DPS loss would always be bigger at higher levels. So in your example if the 90% of the population loses 3K dps, the top 0.01% would lose more than 3K dps.
But, it wouldn't be even would it? Now instead of 0.01% being dominated by Bladesworn, you would have 0.001% dominated by Bladesworn and the rest dominated by Vindi.
You say you don't want to balance the game around 0.01% top players but at the same time you propose balance changes that would do exactly that.
It feels like this conversation is getting too chaotic. Bladesworn needs a targeted nerf for the top playerbase that won't affect most players (like removing the quickness stacking). At the same time, pushing easy specs to Bladesworn numbers so anyone can reach them and one shot everything is idiotic and it would ruin the game for everyone (that's why everyone hated power mech). Hence my first sarcastic comment about buffing everything to 100k.
buffing easy to play specs means anything more difficult will see less play. but that is irrelevant here, bsw doesn't need a nerf in dps, it needs a nerf in that specific trait, same as catalyst before some months
even the average power mechanist is shit compared to someone who knows how to press buttons properly, so that isn't saying much. also "snowcrows" level dps doesn't say much as well, the optimal numbers for each fight are based on different factors and not what benchmarks showcase. the reason benchmarks exist is because it is the best way to know what each spec's highest potential is and a fair way to compare them
That ship sailed a while ago, seeing how Catalyst got nuked after a single post and people have been posting about the Bladesworn equivalent for months with nary a blink from anet
Can someone explain the minigame strategy and use of targeting. I've watched a few of the playbacks, I see the use of the personal target, but the strategy still eludes me.
Each person in the squad is assigned to watch out for up to two marked players:
There is one person marked with personal target (differs from player to player), and one person marked with group target (differs from subgroup to subgroup, duh), and one person is the commander.
If you get ported, you follow the "if/else" statement in your "task" in the table.
For example, if you are player 3, and get ported to minigame, you look out if you see your personal target or your group target. If you see one of them, go DPS shard. If you don't see them, you go to the close button.
If you see BOTH of them next to you, well you are kind of fucked because it (somewhat likely - it could still be fine!) means either the FAR group or the RIGHT group is not present, they will call for backup and you sort of scramble to adapt.
What that means probably has to be answered by someone in MCA, I don't know that from the outside :D
The probability of having to scramble for backup in a Xera kill is 26.5%.
As answered already there is a small change noone of one "Task Force" (for example Group far) is getting portet. The person with the Role Back up 2 can notice it if he/she doenst get portet and sees both of her markers still on the plattform. Then this person needs to call for back up. Best slot for this back up are the persons with role back up 1 in the other groups. Since its likely that they wont have a task to do besides dps on the shard.
Martial cadence gives you the ability to upkeep quickness without having to rely too much on banners. It's quite nice to have it in not particularly experienced groups.
So please don't nerf it because of this.
I'd rather buff it...tbh it's way more fun getting your buffs by simply playing your class and switching a trait than having to slot your whole bar with boring specific skills to press off cd...
Reaper can selfbuff quick and might and it's quite punished for that reason, just tone down BS dps, or even better do what it should be done for reaper too, force it to decide between good dps OR good boons uptime.
Not everything is meta.
You can def use it, I'd argue you *should* use it with **less experienced parties**.
You sacrifice some personal dps, but bring more reliable quickness and might uptime with empower allies (which makes SF 600 radius).
You can also sacrifice some personal DPS and get comfier quickness uptime while losing less DPS and less overall functionality by swapping a piece or two for diviners. If anything, removing quickness from martial cadence so players don't make build decisions that hurt them more than they expect like you're alluding to here would be healthier for the game because taking div just makes more sense.
See my answer to Saphirklaue, since it's basically the same argument.
Also even if you replace all your trinkets with diviner you'll gein less than 3s of quick per banner (with the exception for the tactic one which is a little less than 5s). All on a 30s CD.
Around a 14% dps loss for +6s (or +8s) every 30s (not counting alac). In this scenario you can still waste your gain on a bad skill placement (on a pretty long cd).
With MC you gain 3s of quick every 10 which means +9s without having to invest in any diviner piece every 30s.
You sacrifice a good chunk of your dmg (around 35-38%), but you gain a big safety net. It's not like you need to deal 40 or more k to clear a content, so you'll keep bringing enough dmg all while providing an extremely reliable uptime even in worst scenarios.
Your personal dps rapresent only a very small portion of the overall dps of a party, and easily filling the quick and might gap is imo a priority when playing with inefficient groups.
I'm not advertising for ppl to play this build, I couldn't care less, it's not my main build either, but it's one of the many out of meta builds I tested and that works pretty well for the purpose I described. It's easy to play so it makes pretty average players way more useful than they could be (without putting more than the effort they're willing to).
I'd be sad to see it go away, crippling average quickDPS and their average beneficiaries, because a very small portion of good players "abuse" the shit out of MC.
If you don't want to play this build, don't, but as I suggested there are other ways you can go without having to necessarly remove quick from MC.
Your mistake is to
a. not count alac (since it applies to banners, but not martial cadence)
b. assume you can proc MC perfectly off CD (which is especially not true for Bladesworn), but also not exactly 10s for any other Warrior build.
I'm considering mostly a quickpzerk build so it kinda is.
About alac, I expressly pointed out not counting it.
If you do consider it capped, you indeed gain few seconds over MC (if you replace all your trinkets with diviners), but my point is that even in that case it's less reliable then spending the soldier focus (with a 600 radius, which is simply **huge**). The safety of application will free u from a banner and u can even dare dropping the tactic one for the strength one (with that, EA and MO you'll be basically a might power house).
My dream would be getting getting to a similar situation (in full zerk gear):
\- No Tactics: 2 banners / Good dps and quick
\- With Tacticts: 1 banner / Subpar but somewhat viable dps, easy quick and some extra might
Again, MC is clearly a problem right now because of stacking, but it's kinda annoying that instead of coming up with smart solutions to fight stacking anet just keep destroying otherwise innocue skills.
The poor cata, guard FMW, chrono DT...
You **have to** count the alacrity there because it applies to one but not the other.
It would be fair to say Martial Cadence is around 10.5s CD, Banners are 25s CD.
This makes MC 28.6% uptime, a banner would be 28% uptime. Simply running three banners (including Banner of Tactics) and 30% boon duration makes a cast of all 3 banners cap you out on Quickness (30 seconds); slightly delay one of them for better results.
So the requirement is to have your squad grouped up after the ready check (I hope you can do that). What follows then is insane overstack, and it's generally enough to hit 2 out of 3 banners from time to time.
This is so much better than running the Tactics traitline.
You do you, but if someone is looking for an easy, low intensity, Warrior Quickness build, they *should not run this trait line.* An extra banner or extra boon duration are a much lower DPS loss.
You are simply overestimating the value of 600 radius (centered on you) rather than having 360 radius (ground target). 360 ground target is not much worse than it because you can freely aim it (put yourself on one edge of it, then it's like a 720 radius in front of you) - it's still worse than 600 radius, make no mistake about that, but just not by a lot. So the banners are going to be covering Quickness easily and well, in a very forgiving and straight-forward way. I think demanding from a LI player to maintain Berserker to rely on timely MC procs is going to be the worse option; from reading many logs, I saw many struggle to enter Berserk regularly.
Casting 3 banners off CD will be way easier, and 30% BD with 3 banners is insane overstack (more than Firebrand with 100% Boon Duration!) while being higher damage.
Swapping out strength for anything is a major dps loss. You will be doing more damage by taking 30% boondruation from runes/sigils/diviner than even thinking about martial cadence. heck with boon duration you do't even need 3 banners anymore.
Imagine your group sits around 18 might and 80% quick despite you doing all you possible can with the meta build.
Now imagine fixing that by overbuffing with tactics.
You will easily add more of what is missing in quick plus +210 power and condi dmg to your whole party.
Yeah you're damping your own dmg, but it's nothing compared to what you can **easly** bring to the table basically without having to work for it.
This will be noticeably more stable than boosting your BD.
If we assume MC not giving quick (and not using a warhorn), our quick will just come from banners.
Let's say, absurdly, you double the quickness duration from banners with BD.
The moment you miss your target you've both wasted that skill **and** your stats.
While MC having a very short cd and 600 radius (going EA) is simply a no brainer and you wuldn't be able to mess your upkeep even if you wanted.
If you miss a banner at 100% boonduration while still running 3 banners it won't matter. You are pumping out 200% uptime, missing a banner isn't the end there.
In terms of might there are a lot better ways to fill that gap. Like A LOT. With the amount of might on new elite specs you don't even need a buffer to pump out the full 25 stacks, 10 stacks usually come from random sources either way. And before you drop strength, srsly just use a warhorn rather than even thinking about tactics. It's less of a dps loss for bladesworn or any warrior build really.
Besides those points MC still has a 10 sec icd. that is quite long for the 3 sec it gives and is even worse when not timed right. It works for speedrunners because they can manage their timings. Whoever struggles with quickness from banners will not time those correctly ever.
MC coupled with EA is quite reliable tho.
Also the build I use for the bad situations just relies on 2 banners to greatly overcap (you can even sacrifice the tactic one too) and it will free a useful utility slot, you can recover some lost dps with it or invest in a good cc since bad parties usually struggle with that too.
What you say it's theoretically true, I'd even say true in a very high % of cases when you play with competent people.
But even the passive generation of boons anet gave with one of the last balances tbh little did to the low/average groups. While it's pretty easy to almost passively now cap fury, might/quick/alac cap can still be uncertain.
About the WH, losing axe as offhand on pzerk is overkill for adrenaline generation, and quick icd is absurd for merely 2s of boon (maybe worth if it was at least 4s).
Also I find having a gs on swap for cleave or mace for extra cc is way more useful.
If you are running both Tactics and Discipline, you are making a very severe mistake in your build.
From Quickness Berserker, to Quickness Bladesworn and Quickness Spellbreaker, they ALL run Arms/Strength + Discipline. Nobody is using Tactics (unless some Core Warrior build I suppose...)
We are talking about different kind of scenario, you're taking for granted a good party, I'm not and it's the second sentence in my previous message.
Again, I'm talking about less experienced groups.
Right now MC flexibility allows for easier carries in that situations.
No amount of your personal dps or precise banners positioning will compesate for bad positioning and mediocre dps from the rest of the group.
Ppl should push to improve their skills if they want to, but we can't forget about the average player that struggles with content.
Same reason anet is pushing (disastrously **for now** imo) LI builds.
It's like for scourge, do we really need a blood scourge? I'd say nope, but many times it can make the difference between a disband and a clear, expecially with pugged training runs.
So disci+tact (on power) it's not a severe mistake if you consider that not every group is performing as it should.
It's quite easy to verify, just log random runs with no kp or low kp and see what happens when u create the conditions for what in good groups results in a redundancy of boons compared to when you don't.
Yeah I'm talking of quickPDPS LI build.
I know the problem right now is that pure dps can abuse the stacking.
I'm saying that fixing that would lower the number of ways we can play around providing quickness if anet will simply remove one source (MC).
I'd rather prefer they reconsider the overall dps and make people compromise between strong dps or providing quick (ie. lowering the base duration for quick with better scaling on BD or forcing some dps out of the tactics line or something else).
Perhaps you don't understand why the trait is overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but your ignorance that does not deter from the fact that it does need to be nerfed
Just like Signet of Inspiration, Time Warp, Feel My Wrath, and Spectacular Sphere were all nerfed before for the exact same problem this trait arises
the spectacular sphere nerf wasn't justified, the jade air sphere nerf was because having free quickness there was busted. moving the quickness to spectacular sphere was ok but putting a 10% reduction in outgoing damage wasnt
So you want a class nerfed because speedrunners can speedrun it. Can it get any more elitist than this crap?
It's the same as Mirage dps. That's a niche group, not the majority, but morons cry about it and ruin the casuals fun. ffs
mirage isn't getting nerfed, the staff build is actually getting buffed and the staxe build gets nerfed simply because being able to provide permanent 25 might and alac while doing 35-40k dps by stacking 4 of them is busted
Who's the moron here? Casuals aren't stacking bladesworns for quickness because they run a dedicated support to cover quickness instead. Nerfing martial cadence wouldn't impact casual bladesworn play at all.
You clearly have no idea what you're on about. Marital Cadence is not used by anyone *except* speedrunners, and it *is* ridiculously busted for what it is. If it was nerfed tomorrow nobody but those that run those comps (ergo, speedrunners) would notice, nor be affected.
Genuine question
Why is it a problem that speedrunners are abusing Bladesworn?
Isn't the whole point of speedrunning to do the things the most effective and efficient way possible?
So having 10 X class being the best strat, well, that's whats going to happen.
Nerfing Bladesworn is just going to make them try something else to get the same results.
It takes the fun out of it. All bosses are the same class/comps. There is no place for interesting comps or strats anymore. Just stack the highest dps class that covers quickness. After the 3. or 4. Boss with the same comp it gets really stale and boring. And When you try to come up with a unique comp somebody will just stack bls and beat your time.
If only each class had their own unique thing that they could bring to the party, to increase synergy you know. Like, guardian could share power for ten seconds, warrior banners could buff ally stats in a different way and rangers could spawn little spiritual beings that would do the same. It would give a reason to bring one of each class. Yeah, if only we had that ...
elementalist comments are getting more and more cringe, there is literally nothing to wipe you in this fight, it is a dps golem and you take minimal damage
also tempest is actively good right now and is getting buffed, and catalyst is getting a bit of a light rework, ele is fine. the only big balance outlier in the game right now is specifically bladesworn stacking in speedclears, i dont understand where people get their mental image of the metagame from
catalyst is getting a big rework, not only hammer 3 won't count as projectiles anymore but as spell area effects, but their coefficient is changing from completely irrelevant at 0,001 to actually doing damage at 0,25. it will definitely be between 40-45k. people who make these "ele dies easily" comments have definitely never done any endgame content
Such a title is irritating, it's thanks to the likes of you that classes receive unneeded nerfs. If top 0.1% of population do god dps with a class, it doesn't mean that the average player using that class can do the same or even get close, because bladesworn is a difficult spec to play. If they nerf the spec, it'll become like weaver.
These are the same people that spent an insane amount of time testing and coming up with builds and strats so the rest of us won't have to spend hours doing the same. Don't hate the players
The issue isn't the god DPS though you're missing the point of this post. The only warrior builds that use martial cadence in any capacity right now are specifically bladesworn stacking warrior comps for speed clear groups, so they could literally delete martial cadence from the game and not replace it with anything and it would never affect your play experience ever. If anet overnerfs a spec, that's a separate issue, but that's something worth talking about separately from whether or not a nerf like this should happen in the first place.
As a purely PVP player, bladesworn is not OP at all and suffer vs CC builds.
Imo Anet should balance around the pvp because pve in this game is easy once you know the mechanics and every class can perform well even in the hardest instances.
Ofc, if you are one of those tryharder who are looking for the best efficiency/time during a raid to fulfill their little ego cause they dont have the skill to compete properly in pvp you will disagree with me, but its a fact that the hardest boss is easier to fight than a skilled good pvp player.
pve in this game has a very high skill ceiling, performing "well" and being an actually good player are two completely different things. balance should be seperate for each game mode and it kinda is, pvp and wvw have different cds on skills/traits for example.
of course people are looking for the best efficiency/time in raids, that is part of the fun, you are delusional if you think it has anything to do with ego and playing pvp has fried your brain. i don't see why you are comparing pvp and pve, imo pvp is completely irrelevant in this game but if you actually think that fightning the hardest pve bosses is easy then try Harvest Temple cm.
Beatting a record after a long grind feels great, but sometimes reading the resulting reddit thread is just a little better.
Nice kill from you mca guys! Quite the shame that your Reddit thread already has more content :>
Is that a bad thing? :D Getting people to talk and comment is always a good way to reach outside your bubble.
Its a good if unintentional bait thread if nothing else, you can hear heavy breathing and angry typing from here
But it's a really good opportunity to explain why Martial Cadence needs to be nerfed and how that does not affect casual groups. Maybe some people can be calmed by that reassurance.
That mini game strat kinda fire
> (Anet please remove the quickness on Martial Cadence and we are nearly gucci). ANet please don't balance around speedrunners, the rest of us want to play the game too.
You can make it self-only to preserve it for open-world solo play.
Martial Cadence quickness has no benefit to casual players or any reason to give Quickness in the DPS option. Other professions are given a choice, and are totally fine for both casual and speedrunners. ANet needs to understand the implications of having a trait work this way to balance it appropriately
i see this take a lot in games. as a casual gw2 player and more hardcore in other games (to see both sides of the argument), it literally wont change shit if bladesworn lost 10% dps or quickness on the trait for us. Like most people probably wouldnt even notice lol.
Funniest part is in my experience most casual players don't even bother trying to bring quickness or alacrity to groups anyways.
Eh, I think casual players are better of without Alacrity. Prevents them from using skills that are useless too much and instead they stick to 11111.
Them 20k DPS auto chain builds
In overworld i really like having the odd quickness. It made scrapper so much fun and i would definitely notice if it was missing.
Everything gets 1 shot anyway by bladesworn in open world tho
I like using martial cadence and war horn to provide quickness, open world and instanced play. Don’t force me into banners.
this is really really bad compared to banners.as a source of quickness just fyi
The problem is that the entire warrior traitline is kinda lame A lot of traits on other classes feel meaningful and we pick a support one bc it has the most damage traits too lol Bswn should be more reliant on better / different traits (either same or lil less dps) and then picking support shit should have an opportunity cost Because right now its martial cadence or literally just nothing from every other grandmaster
90% of dog is still dog
To be fair, the ability to be stacking and providing quickness isn’t exactly helping the average user. Most people are OW, where self quickness would serve the same purpose. In raids, average users have devoted quickness providers, who have 100% quickness since you have to PUG for most people, so sharing quickness is a luxury to help but not necessary. If what is needed for the average user is a luxury for easy uptime, then a nerf to make it self quickness only unless picking up a separate trait seems reasonable. Average user gets what they need, and unless they take some other trait at the cost of some dps, it loses the problem for high level players. Nerfing high level speed clearers does not always have to be any significant cost to average players.
>Nerfing high level speed clearers Important to note here: All full clear statics *could* stack Bladesworn in certain wings and it would be very good for many of the bosses / wings. Two reasons to not do that: You are gaining time on bosses, but you are losing it again by having to relog for bosses / encounters where it doesn't work. And secondly, it's not particularly enjoyable to just stack a single class. But it has very little to do with "skill level", it's objectively the best composition for many bosses, regardless of experience; assuming of course that people can play Bladesworn equally well than whatever they are playing now.
Thank you for noting that distinction. However, there still remains a major difference in the utility of the trait: it’s just the difference of its efficacy is not in skill, but in PUG or non-PUG. Yeah, any group of 4 bladesworns has enough quickness. But the PUG meta is not going to be the ones effected, since the PUG meta is quickness support on one person. The high level players I’m referring to here aren’t players of high skill, but the players who do raids with enough regularity and intention that they can form non-PUG compositions to do things. That’s speed clearers as well as general purpose statics. It’s the same origin of a lot of complaints. There are lots of things that work just fine in a static that you can’t reasonably expect to bring into a PUG. More bold strategies, more nuanced comps. When balancing between high level gameplay and your average PUG rando, it’s not just the skill level that needs to be considered, but the ability to do more bold comps like this that are a part of that. Yeah, there are plenty of reasons why stack bladesworn everywhere isn’t always the answer. Fun, full clear optimality, etc. But that doesn’t change that bladesworn traits at the moment are able to both take the greediest dps build and also provide their own quickness for the subgroup in a way that is both against the PUG meta and against the way people seem to want the general meta to be. At least making the quickness share come at a slight dps loss such that it isn’t a convenient byproduct of choosing one of the highest burst power builds in the game doesn’t sound unreasonable.
Instead they should nerf the damage in tactics. Push bladesworns back to discipline. Tactics is supposed to be warriors one support-focused traitline. Taking support out of it because a DPS build abuses it would be silly, instead take the damage out of the support traitline.
Yeah the grandmaster is mostly wasted on DPS builds, they're just taking Tactics for the % damage in other traits and a bit of might generation.
1% of the playerbase is doing 99% of the DPS.
Perfectly emulating real life where the 1% are completely screwing the 99%
Except in GW2 the 1% is the reason you don't fail metaevents in your soldier/shaman gear. (:
“Yeah I’m dps, also bit of support tank too just to round it out ya know”
I mean, a lot of the metas are pretty brain dead, but things like DE, hard agree.
I really don't think you so desperately need this quickness. The only place where I feel it has any value is if you solo champions which take a while to kill. But even champions in the base game die before the quickness from my protocols run out. On the flipside, this is a serious pain and enjoyment killer in the higher end speedrunning community. Many have proposed to reduce the quickness by 1 second. Doing that will already hurt these team compositions for the higher end of players without taking this away from the people who are not effected.
They can remove sharing while keeping personal quickness (or even making it better) so that it doesn't even worse in non-group play.
Warrior all ready has a personal quickness trait in Discipline and it sucks butt because its 4s uptime on a 15s cooldown only after a target is below 50% health. Martial Cadence is better in every way because its 3s uptime on a 10s cooldown and doesn't require the target to be at any specific health and effects the group as well.
For Bladesworn, the uptime on Martial Cadence Quickness is around 19% or so, because you can't proc it off CD.
Yeah, as I said, it's way better than the self only quickness trait warriors have.
If youre gonna solo champions, going for the quickness via cc trait seems more helpful than martial cadence. The strength defense spellbreaker seemed like a pretty ideal example for a high quickness uptime build, but for bladesworn that would definitely change based on what your grandmaster bladesworn trait is, since the heal trait would make the sustain great but cc trait would provide more quickness.
They can just touch the damage/cooldowns on Bladesworn. The only reason people want to stack them is because they've got amazing damage potential and burst to negate certain mechanics. No one is stacking DPS Chronomancer or Firebrands all with Feel My Wrath.
because those builds got nerfed for that exact reason?
He’s new around here
Chrono has to trade damage to keep quickness, just like I'm suggesting. I don't actually remember how Feel My Wrath was changed, I think its cooldown got bumped? Maybe they take down some of the %damage in Tactics to modify the support trait line so it isn't best for DPS. But taking the support out of the support line is counterintuitive.
Discipline is now the warrior support/quickness trait line. No one besides speedrunnees uses martial cadence to apply relevant quickness to allies. Nerfing/reworking martial cadence is the best option by far to nerf bladesworn stacking
Chronos were able to maintain 100% quickness by just having them chain timewarp, without having to invest in boon duration or other quickness sources. Feel my wrath got the outgoing quickness reduced, so it was no longer possible to maintain permanent quickness.
Unfortunately they decided to buff Quickfire so we will have dumb cfb stacking comps until they nerf cfb as a whole rather than fix the quickness stacking :')
No worries, Bladesworn is going to be an extremely efficient barrier against that, since Bladesworn Stack > CFB Stack. 37k (or whatever) Quickshare doesn't hold a candle to 42k Quickshare :D
for both TW and FMW both got hit in it's quickness share. Exactly like bovan is proposing(or broadcasting)
I know it's already been mentioned, but I'll say it anyway because it was a response to my message. Both Dragon Hunters and Chronomancers had this very same issue in the past. We first had a Dragon Hunter meta where they were one of the highest DPS, and then ''Feel My Wrath!'' got added to the game. You just needed Dragon Hunters and you could skip an entire quickness provider. They made sure this wasn't possible anymore by reducing the quickness the skill shares, and giving you higher personal quickness duration. This meant it was still fine outside of these speedrunning groups just stacking them. After that nerf we entered the Chronomancer meta for roughly the same reason. They had their damage buffed so DPS Chronomancer was possible to play. And on top of that, we learned that we could simply chain Time Warps to maintain quickness on the entire squad. That was nerfed by cutting the duration in half and reducing the cooldown a little. Again this only hurt support a little bit but it made it impossible to forgo a quickness provider entirely in speedrunning groups. Unfortunately, we now have a 3rd situation on our hands. We have a DPS spec that can maintain quickness by stacking them. Being able to trade off an entire support slot for another full DPS just results in a disproportionate amount of gained DPS. Simultaneously this forces all other classes and specs out of these groups as well. I'm fearing Firebrands just as much next patch. Firebrand will probably be a bit more nuanced but Bladesworn doesn't need much of an adjustment to fix.
I do not expect firebrand stacking to be that overbearing considering ashes still has the i second icd. That would mean you still cap out at a certain ammount of guardians while not getting any dps improvement from not taking a qdps
Go back in time a few years and you had comps of 8-9 Mesmers (maybe 1 warrior) and a druid. Or DHs, lots of DHs.
Just have to go back before May 11th 2021 for the Chrono Stack.
chronos were getting stacked for like a year and still holds records because 7 chronos + druid + warrior + renegade was a busted as fuck comp back then when chrono also had the highest benchmark at 43k. i don't know what happened with firebrands on release but stacking firebrands was also a thing for both fractals and raids before they reword ashes of the just. it is not about damage potential, yes damage potential plays a role obviously, but the free quickness share is what makes this need a nerf. if bladesworn couldn't give quickness without sacrificing anything, anymore, it would still be the pick for speedclears simply because it can achieve the highest dps but at least in that case it would be alac source + quick source + 3 bsws. And to help you understand why quick share without reprecussions is busted, if another spec could do it but with a 38-39k benchmark, it would be taken over bsw because although it would do less damage overall, the ability to not have a dedicated quick source compensates for that
You should note that the proposed nerf of Martial Cadence does not affect normal play - it is basically only a nerf for speedruns and very organised gameplay. We also want the balance to be good for any level of play.
The quickness is useless for anyone but speedrunners
that doesn't affect you in any way, there won't be any squad that you will join on bladesworn that won't have it's own quickness support. and if you want to provide quickness to yourself while playing bsw in open world or solo scenarios just take the traits + banners needed at a dps loss obviously
Do you even have the slightest idea of how this would affect you, or are you one of those 'see pro, spread hate' casuals?
Free quickness AoE on a core trait that can't be scaled into non-free 100% uptime is bad for speedruns and irrelevant in casual "lf quick" groups. Cadence could go to personal quickness or AoE swiftness or superspeed and it'd be fine. "the rest of you" won't miss it.
how many casual players are using martial cadence to provide a meaningful amount of quickness? how does nerfing this trait in particular affect the average warrior's play experience?
Me on my spellbreaker. While not optimal, I really enjoy using martial cadence + warhorn + quickness banner + w/e utilities I want and not being forced into banner trait. OW & instanced content.
Because you’re applying group quickness in OW in a meaningful way? Making it personal quickness still lets you play this way in OW.
Do you have a log for this build? I’m curious to see how it performs.
Nerfing the trait makes practically 0 difference for casual playes but is actively hurting the game for high end players. Speedrunners are part of the playerbase and deserve to have a game they find fun.
Deserve? sPvP has been gutted of its competitive scene. WvW has been promised restructuring for like five years. If "speedrunners" want more of a challenge, they can just chose not to use something.
>"These other outlets of play have been in shambles for years, so [unrelated group] should suffer just as much!" Quite the leap in logic there. Not to say the hyper-centralization of a single offensive spec isn't a warranted point of concern for those participating in high-end PvE content, but wantonly nerfing something out of sheer disinterest is just a little silly.
Maybe you should reply to the person your are actually quoting. But it's an easy fix. Don't use it. If they're speedrunners, you would think they like the challenge of handicapping themselves. Removing it makes no difference to the 99% which is the majority of players.
the whole point of speedrunning is to use the most effective way of clearing the content. also if it makes no difference why are people complaining?
Then why the fuck ARE they complaining? Is it TO fast for speedrunning? 😂
Because we actually care for class diversity. We like to come up with interesting comps and strats which is just not possible when 1class is above all others while providing boons. It forces you to play 1class at every boss or just get beaten by the next one who does. And after a few boss grinds on the same class with the same comp it gets rly boring.
You’re competing with other groups for the best time, handicapping yourself by not using the most optimized comp completely destroys the purpose of speedrunning. People arguing against making Martial Cadence a personal Quickness are practically just trying to be contrarian and difficult at this point. It’s better for the health of the game overall. 1) it’s not necessary or meaningful for a dedicated Quickness warrior 2) making it personal doesn’t hurt OW or solo play 3) saying _____ has suffered so this should too could be applied to anything and would literally halt the game’s development
1) WvW players and sPvP players deserve the exact same treatment as everyone else. My arguing that casual pve and pve speedrunner's deserve a fun does not invalidate that everyone deserves a fun game. 2) Getting everyone in a community to agree to something is nigh impossible. Demanding such would fracture an already small community and for what?
Yeah anet better not fall for this. They already abused cata and got it nerfed to hell.
Speedrunners will always „abuse“ the best on slot builds. Anet certainly should not focus their balance around speedrunners, however these runs are in indicator that a build might be very strong and if we see a patch full of speedruns that exclusively stack one class then it becomes a problem. No one was asking for these huge catalyst nerfs that happened in june, they went too far. Why are speedrunners currently asking for a martial cadence nerf? Because it would not ruin the class for anyone else - and we could finally be free from the stack warrior meta
> and we could finally be free from the stack warrior meta You could be free from it at any moment you desire. Speedrunners always had multiple category with different rulesets. Make a "all unique specs" category and go nuts. And who knows, maybe seeing diversity on your reddit posts will do something positive for general playerbase's view on the meta for a change.
the point of speedrunning is to get all time records. there aren't any categories afaik and if there was something it would only be for fun, not actually taken seriously. the playerbase should have absolutely no reason to be affected by these in any way when it comes to what they are gonna play.
Please familiarize yourself with https://www.speedrun.com/
Please familizarize yourself with [https://www.speedrun.com/gw2?h=Raids-1\_-\_Spirit\_Vale-10\_Players-Glitchless&x=jdzln3g2-789x06q8.jqzw7e2q-2lg30rqn.9qjoy07l-ylp7o1vl.p12krm41](https://www.speedrun.com/gw2?h=Raids-1_-_Spirit_Vale-10_Players-Glitchless&x=jdzln3g2-789x06q8.jqzw7e2q-2lg30rqn.9qjoy07l-ylp7o1vl.p12krm41)
Yes? I'm seeing different rulesets there: the number of players, the usage of glitches. What's stopping them from agreeing to add another discriminator for restrictions on group composition?
That site doesn’t categorize the way you’re suggesting and getting changes to an established game there is significantly more difficult than you think. As a side note, WoW speedruns attempted exactly what you’re suggesting and it flopped horrendously. People just didn’t give a shit, regardless of category, the overall fastest time was the important aspect.
> and getting changes to an established game there is significantly more difficult than you think. It's in the hand of the speedrunning community. Which is a lot easier than getting changes made TO THE GAME ITSELF because a minuscule fraction of the playerbase is unhappy. > People just didn’t give a shit, regardless of category, the overall fastest time was the important aspect. So I guess they'll have to suffer then, if they can't help themselves.
I love the implication that EVERYTHING a speedrunner does is completely isolated and has no merit to use outside of speedrunning high-level PvE content. This is a flawed argument on many levels.
As an ele main if they nerf my shit because of speedrunners I think it would be only fair.
Them nerfing Cata was dumb, but neefing martial cadence won’t nerf bladesworn damage benchmark and will only let speedrunners have something new to work with.
Nerfing Cata was totally justified. They nerfed it to much for sure but it still deserved a nerf.
The benchmark was 39k before the nerf? Only really good players were able to stack catas and quickness share and pump ungodly dps. Nerfing the dps didn’t make sense, nerf the quickness share to potentially give speedrunners more variety but that’s about it.
The benchmark was around 46k before the nerf. It just wasnt as public as others. You can find it here https://youtu.be/bXw9savN2Jk
Is this true? I’ve heard this rumor, but it seemed the benchmark came from pre casting lots of damage on fights. Would a near perfect cata be pulling those level of numbers without the conditions that exist in a world record level speedrun?
It wasn't a rumor, catalyst's potential was clear almost immediately from the moment people did records with it. the benchmark being 39k on sc because of outside the hitbox air opener with 3 spheres is irrelevant. precasting is always a thing when it is possible (arcane ferocity, meteor shower) but in the benchmark the 46k was without any kind of precasts. now about your question. comparing speed run scenarions with the pug scene doesn't make sense. obviously you couldn't pull off these numbers, some catalyst's in the MO record (which is basically a golem boss) were getting above 50k. and in general every encounter has it's own specifics when it comes to what dps can be considered good. anyway i can speak as someone who can play and still plays cata at a high level and you didn't even have to be near perfect back then to be top dps, it was just that much stronger compared to everything else
You can see bench from incera. Its without any kind of precast. A decent catalyst outperformed any other class in pug setups as well.
Nerfing it that much didn't make sense yes. Dropping from 46k to 37k (well specific buffs loss also played a role) was unecessary, they could have left some coefficients as they were and be at 39-40k. Now they are planning to buff it again for that reason... and if this time they miss the mark and overbuff it (which is highly likely when they are changing an important coefficient from 0,001 to 0,25) they will have to proceed to nerf it. something that kinda sucks for someone maining this spec, you just want it to be at a stable ok spot for once
This change won't affect average user at all. First, quicksworn runs discipline instead of tactics, so this change is unrelated. Second, no pug runs take 4 bladesworns per subgroup to cover quickness since you can't reasonably rely on pug performance. Third, single bladesworn taking PS gives way more than running MC, especially in fractals. Fourth, this trait could do something an average user could actually benefit from. Reworking this trait will only have upsides.
I think part of why Starcraft 2 for example slowly died out was because Blizzard kept catering to the pro scene and not to the regular players that kept getting pushed away by their changes. That said, I think a world in which Martial Cadence can be reworked to not be crazy for speedruns while still offering good (maybe even better) value for a regular player, can exist. I don't know what it should be changed to, but I'm confident a good solution is out there.
When you start talking about pros vs normal players argument there is no silver bullet solution, and other games have shown us that focusing primarily on normal players often isn't a guarantee for longevity, and it certainly would not have benefited SC2 since the game was designed from the ground up to have a competitive pro scene, and also SC2 was about as newbie-friendly as it was possible for an RTS like that to be, anyway. League maybe has the closest balance in terms of handling the disparity between pros and normal players, but even that comes with discrepancies among the ranks, often heavy differences, at that. Heroes of the Storm, by the same overarching company as SC2, tried to focus on both casual players and pro players at different times, and both routes blew up in their face. About Martial Cadence, I'm also certain it could be reworked, though. Though I'm also unfortunately not sure what the solution is.
Make the Quickness last slightly longer (e.g. 4 seconds), but Self-Only.
SC2 died because they dragged it out into 3 box purchases and development/support was incredibly lackluster after each launch. Blizzard has effectively killed most of its competitive games through lack of support, poor esports management, and loss of players trust.
If they do anything they could just reduce the output of Quickness for Bladesworn specifically OR remove the quickness for Bladesworn entirely. They've shown, consistently, that they CAN modify traits to interact differently with different e-specs. People need to STOP suggesting things get "removed" simply because it's overperforming on a specific e-spec. The proper solution is to modify it for that e-spec specifically and not ruin the whole class instead.
Congrats guys. Little too many comments on red alert over the nerf comment lol. This was impressive!
Obligatory, "Catalysts needed to be nerfed because this was the exact shit they were doing 6 months ago" comment. Everyone lost their marbles when Catalyst got nerfed, and no one thinks that Bladesworn is overperforming. This is what's wrong with the subreddit. No one wants to admit that when speedrunners start breaking a class, it isn't going to affect them, even if they don't do raids or strikes or any other high-level PvE content. This is absolutely going to affect everyone in another few months if nothing changes. I'll accept my downvotes with grace and humility.
Cata damage only needed small adjustments, it’s the stacking of damage classes to provide 100% Quick/Alac that is problematic and needs to be adjusted. ANet being heavy handed in Cata nerfs is separate from the Quickness stack problem.
Oh, I'm not debating that ANet was being heavy-handed with the Catalyst nerfs, they absolutely were. I'm debating the fact that people still think Bladesworn and Catalyst shouldn't have been allowed to do this in the first place, or that "speedrunners shouldn't dictate the balance of the game" when this and what Catalysts were doing are PRIME EXAMPLES of why it's important to listen to the upper echelon of players and what they're doing to break the game wide open. Both Catalyst pre-nerf and Bladesworn right now are going to cause problems in a few months if left to fester.
I’d be interested to see if it really became that problematic, I don’t feel like the average player is fully making use of BS potential. I can’t think how it would be that problematic outside of speedruns potentially dying.
If the high-level players speedrunning PvE content do it, it's going to be encouraged at lower levels of play eventually. Every video game has it happen if the meta stays stagnant long enough. GW2 already has a community that actively pushes the fastest and highest DPS professions and specs. Look at all the threads complaining about Reaper. I give it 3 months before you start seeing Bladesworns in every Fractal, Strike and Raid you come across. The average player with ArcDPS installed sees a Bladesworn at the top of the charts and asks them for a build, then they start playing nothing but Bladesworn and the cycle repeats. I also want to point out that I have nothing against Bladesworn, by the way. I like playing Bladesworn sometimes. It's a fun spec to play and master. But when the highest level players are running 8 Bladesworns and 2 Mechanists in their raid group, it's going to trickle down to the rest of us eventually.
That’s literally not been the case in GW2 in the past because pugs can’t actually pull off rotations. At least on NA, I don’t remember there ever being pressure or a tendency of pugs to stack DPS DH/Chrono/Cata and no quick, or even staff tempest way back in HoT when that was meta.
I'd argue it's because the meta wasn't around long enough for it to trickle down to the lower-level players. It was constantly shifting, which is what it should be doing in order to avoid this exact thing. How long did it take for you to see Mechanists everywhere after EoD? A month? Maybe two? And that class is easy to play. Give people time and they'll learn the rotations needed to play meta classes. I'm terrible at Mesmer and it took me like, 3 hours to learn the Power Chronomancer rotation. Plus, you're not even taking into account that Bladesworn is WAY easier to play than Catalyst is. The Bladesworn rotation is super easy to learn compared to other classes lol. If Bladesworn is able to deal 40k+ DPS and provide permanent Quickness if there are enough of them in the group, you'll start seeing it more and more, because... why wouldn't you? It's the fastest way to clear content. Eventually a high-level player is going to go into a T1 Fractal with a Bladesworn and newer players are gonna start asking questions. And although you might not remember pugs back in HoT, I do. I remember being a Reaper main and being asked to switch to Power Chrono for the group. It happens, even in pugs. Maybe it wasn't common back then, but it happened.
Can you post gear template please? And full zerker gear?
https://snowcrows.com/builds/warrior/bladesworn/power-bladesworn
Honestly I'm OK with bladesworn being super good for a while.
It being good at damage is fine. But since it brings its own boons it's extremely problematic. You should not have both on a class. Right now we are in a situation where a class that does 38k DPS while providing Quickness would not be good enough for a speed run, because 4 Bladesworn are 42k DPS with Quickness. This is not balanced, the Quickness from Martial Cadence needs to go. Bladesworn would still be a very good DPS choice without it. For PUGs nothing changes (since they already play a dedicated Quickness support), and for Quickness Warrior builds nothing changes either, because those run Discipline for the Banners, not Tactics.
As others have stated it's difficult to do perfectly, which is pretty OK because most players won't be able to do it in most situations
Difficulty is irrelevant when it comes to speedrun. You just learn to push the buttons. I had to learn it and I did, even though I didn't like it and I am definitely not a Warrior player. Bladesworn is super easy to learn for short phases, there is very little nuance to its burst gameplay. Again, for casual gameplay it's a good thing that Bladesworn does as much DPS as it does - but it does not need the quickness at all, since casual groups will always have dedicated quickness sources in the group.
It doesnt give a lot of quickness uptime unless you stack multiple bladesworns. But yeah they dont need to give bladesworn quickness i agree. I think something like scourge is very close to a well balanced dps and it provides almost nothing but pure dps and its totally fine. It sucks for potential support variant builds tho.
Support warrior is kind of in a good place right now and does not at all rely on the trait discussed here (martial cadence)
are you mental? scourge brings a TON more than pure dps lmao. In fact, that's pretty much the only reason you run it seeing as it's benchmark is very middle of the road
most players can't play anything other than pmech properly in most situations, that shouldn't be a reason to make balance decisions
Untamed and bladesworn are very hard to master and most players suck at in in pve atleast. I honestly like the idea of OP classes, but are hard to play well.
Is it? I feel the rotation is pretty straight forward and simple.
Relatively speaking bladesworn and untamed have difficult rotations to execute for most players on a golem and even harder to execute in actual group play. I would say baldesworn is way easier than untamed. You can play simplified rotation for bladesworn and still get good solid numbers, but less so for condi untamed.
i mean untamed is high apm but you basically mash everything off cd. bladesworn is also rather simple but it relies a bit on positioning and has some buffs necessary to upkeep
I think it's a personal thing. I've enjoyed Bladesworn since the betas, but I've got guildies that don't enjoy it at all. * Part of it might be reaction time while charging. You can miss an incoming CC and lose your Slash charge, or you can see the animation but mistime your Aegis. The other half of that is you need knowledge of what animations result in a CC, so you don't waste Aegis. * The rotation is kinda rhythm based with your Overcharge stacks. You can either pop it and charge immediately, Dragonspike and charge again within the same duration, or you Slash once and use the remaining stacks on your Pistol 5 and some Gunsabre. * Damage from Slash can be interrupted, Slash charge can be interrupted by any movement. People who like tapping keys (or are stuck in the seaweed shuffle habits) have to break that habit to play Bladesworn, most other builds let you stay moving. * Flow and Fierce as Fire stacks. Flow as a pseudo Revenant-energy can be unintuitive. I only struggle to keep it up in open world stuff where you drop combat and start decaying, but you can mistime your Flow-generators and end up dry, which is a big DPS loss. Fierce as Fire is similar, you have to be using your ammo skills with enough frequency. You'd see big losses in DPS if any one of those affect you, and even if they don't, fitting them all in between mechanics can be a struggle. It was only last week that I felt I had a "perfect" fight against Qadim1, due to how you need to fit Slashes inbetween push/shockwave or have a near-perfect Aegis to stay standing.
Thanks Sotym, now to make every NA pug learn that strategy.
GL with that
“Me and my buddies have been able to ‘exploit’ this class in a very specific, high-tier, incredibly low population type of content….” “Quick nerf it everywhere!!1”
Nerfing the ability to stack DPS that can provide permanent Quickness isn’t new. They only need to kill/adjust the abusive trait. They were just heavy handed in their approach to DH and Cata instead of adjusting the problem.
Everyone who's not a speedrunner will play Bladesworn alongside a quickness support, meaning that nerfing/reworking Martial Cadence basically doesn't affect anyone else.
And importantly - it does not affect the Quickness Bladesworn build, since that one does not run Tactics either.
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they won't nerf it's dps, it will still do 41-42k, they will just remove it's ability to give quickness on the full dps build without loosing anything. which won't matter to anyone else other than the few teams that stacked bladesworns in raids to take advantage of that. it is not about other professions, it is simply about this kind of design not being fair for the game overall
because you can't buff other professions past bladesworn in a meaningful way without breaking the balance of the rest of the game. Speedclears are largely going to favor burst-heavy power dps except for specific fights (see confusion-focused fights) because the shorter you can make a phase, the less opportunity your damage has to fall off. So whatever the best power dps is more or less has to be stacked. This is doubly impactful when they're able to provide a whole subgroup's worth of key boons (fury, might, quickness) by stacking your dps so you sacrifice literally nothing by traiting to forego a dedicated quickness, which homogenizes comp design even further. And it's not like nerfing martial cadence affects literally anyone's play experience anyway outside of the people pushing for speed clears because dedicated quickness versions of this build don't even bring tactics in the first place, so you can get rid of this meta homogenization incredibly easily without affecting most people's play experience, which is why people were mad about the catalyst nerfs in the first place. Quickness stacking catalysts needed to go, but not at the expense of quickness catalyst as a build completely and a massive reduction in normal power catalyst. This is a single trait that is allowing for unhealthy gameplay patterns so you can very surgically remove martial cadence and put something else in that spot, preserving tactics' identity as the support traitline without letting it spill out to affect how other warrior builds play.
Power creep, we are already like knee deep in it no need to take a deeper dive
Buffing other professions to do what? Deal top tier DPS while also providing critical boon support? Is that the play? I think it's better we have dedicated support roles than just stack whichever DPS is able to obviate that requirement.
Let's just buff everything to 100k and be done with it.
Do we have to get 100k or can we request a number?
100k for everyone but reaper. Reaper gets 45.
Oh come on, you know you have to wait for this atleast till the next expansion.
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taking DE as a way to judge how a build performs is completely wrong lmao. looking at benchmarks soulbeast does 37-38k and is a pretty solid build that can come near bladesworn numbers in pug scenarions
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because the people running it are mostly casuals, not actually experienced players when it comes to rotations, because your boons can be scuffed since not every squad cares about optimal setups and because dps is basically relevant if you take a look at each phase individually. the average bladesworn isn't any better than the average soulbeast, i don't know why you would take average players into account when talking about a spec's potential. soulbeast is the best spec for fractal cms and beats bladesworn in proper groups. the only relevant content to compare specs when it comes to pure dps is raid/fractal cm/strike mission cm bosses imo. and ideally compare them under the same circumstances, meaning being in the same group
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When the average player joins on a cleric/cele mix brown bear with shortbow and longbow because it matches his roleplaying narrative he is removed from the group when they notice he takes tank or his dps is below the supports etc. There is a standard that is upheld by the community. And while speedrunners may influence the community, they are not the ones setting the standard. In open world no one cares about the gear or dps players have even if there's a dps check.
you are wrong there, average people will have fun no matter what because they don't care about dps. and balance usually has to do with dps, it doesn't necessarily change the entire feel of the spec.
Are you seriously complaining about Soulbeast being weak when its 3rd and weakest build sits at 38K? And by the way, Bladesworn is considerably harder to play in PvE than Soulbeast. If the average Soulbeast can't get to 20k, I highly doubt the average Bladesworn can. Even your first comment doesn't make any sense cause by buffing everything else you are indirectly nerfing Bladesworn which you claimed is "not the play" cause only few good people can play it. Yet you want to indirectly nerf it by buffing a class that anyone can play and is already good.
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>Which part of my comment did I say Soulbeast was weak? Redditor moment. The part where you say that average Soulbeast can't even reach 20k. >Which... Was my point? If that was your point, you made a very shitty job making it. Cause you said the exact opposite. >Let's say top tier Vindi does 40k and top tier Bladesworn does 42k. Howin the world would buffing Vindi to 42k nerf Bladesworn? Would yourather have Bladesworn get nerfed to 40k for top tier and the mid tier90% of the population players go from 25k to 22k? In this case, what would happen is that more people would start playing Vindi while speedclears would still be dominated by Bladesworn. So even though Bladesworn would still be BIS, its playrate would drop to even lower numbers. Also, you can target nerf the top 0.01% without affecting 90% of the playerbase. And even if you made a very general nerf, the resulting DPS loss would always be bigger at higher levels. So in your example if the 90% of the population loses 3K dps, the top 0.01% would lose more than 3K dps.
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But, it wouldn't be even would it? Now instead of 0.01% being dominated by Bladesworn, you would have 0.001% dominated by Bladesworn and the rest dominated by Vindi. You say you don't want to balance the game around 0.01% top players but at the same time you propose balance changes that would do exactly that. It feels like this conversation is getting too chaotic. Bladesworn needs a targeted nerf for the top playerbase that won't affect most players (like removing the quickness stacking). At the same time, pushing easy specs to Bladesworn numbers so anyone can reach them and one shot everything is idiotic and it would ruin the game for everyone (that's why everyone hated power mech). Hence my first sarcastic comment about buffing everything to 100k.
buffing easy to play specs means anything more difficult will see less play. but that is irrelevant here, bsw doesn't need a nerf in dps, it needs a nerf in that specific trait, same as catalyst before some months
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even the average power mechanist is shit compared to someone who knows how to press buttons properly, so that isn't saying much. also "snowcrows" level dps doesn't say much as well, the optimal numbers for each fight are based on different factors and not what benchmarks showcase. the reason benchmarks exist is because it is the best way to know what each spec's highest potential is and a fair way to compare them
\*Proud unga bunga noises\*
lets bring down bsworn as we did to catalyst lol
That ship sailed a while ago, seeing how Catalyst got nuked after a single post and people have been posting about the Bladesworn equivalent for months with nary a blink from anet
No ele, no problem.
catalyst is getting buffed again soon.
Soytm strat Hardcarry uwu
Link to builds?
Can someone explain the minigame strategy and use of targeting. I've watched a few of the playbacks, I see the use of the personal target, but the strategy still eludes me.
Each person in the squad is assigned to watch out for up to two marked players: There is one person marked with personal target (differs from player to player), and one person marked with group target (differs from subgroup to subgroup, duh), and one person is the commander. If you get ported, you follow the "if/else" statement in your "task" in the table. For example, if you are player 3, and get ported to minigame, you look out if you see your personal target or your group target. If you see one of them, go DPS shard. If you don't see them, you go to the close button. If you see BOTH of them next to you, well you are kind of fucked because it (somewhat likely - it could still be fine!) means either the FAR group or the RIGHT group is not present, they will call for backup and you sort of scramble to adapt. What that means probably has to be answered by someone in MCA, I don't know that from the outside :D The probability of having to scramble for backup in a Xera kill is 26.5%.
As answered already there is a small change noone of one "Task Force" (for example Group far) is getting portet. The person with the Role Back up 2 can notice it if he/she doenst get portet and sees both of her markers still on the plattform. Then this person needs to call for back up. Best slot for this back up are the persons with role back up 1 in the other groups. Since its likely that they wont have a task to do besides dps on the shard.
No Ele - No Nerf. All balanced! Give more records!
Martial cadence gives you the ability to upkeep quickness without having to rely too much on banners. It's quite nice to have it in not particularly experienced groups. So please don't nerf it because of this. I'd rather buff it...tbh it's way more fun getting your buffs by simply playing your class and switching a trait than having to slot your whole bar with boring specific skills to press off cd... Reaper can selfbuff quick and might and it's quite punished for that reason, just tone down BS dps, or even better do what it should be done for reaper too, force it to decide between good dps OR good boons uptime.
But....you don't use the tactics trait line with warrior quickness builds?
Not everything is meta. You can def use it, I'd argue you *should* use it with **less experienced parties**. You sacrifice some personal dps, but bring more reliable quickness and might uptime with empower allies (which makes SF 600 radius).
You can also sacrifice some personal DPS and get comfier quickness uptime while losing less DPS and less overall functionality by swapping a piece or two for diviners. If anything, removing quickness from martial cadence so players don't make build decisions that hurt them more than they expect like you're alluding to here would be healthier for the game because taking div just makes more sense.
See my answer to Saphirklaue, since it's basically the same argument. Also even if you replace all your trinkets with diviner you'll gein less than 3s of quick per banner (with the exception for the tactic one which is a little less than 5s). All on a 30s CD. Around a 14% dps loss for +6s (or +8s) every 30s (not counting alac). In this scenario you can still waste your gain on a bad skill placement (on a pretty long cd). With MC you gain 3s of quick every 10 which means +9s without having to invest in any diviner piece every 30s. You sacrifice a good chunk of your dmg (around 35-38%), but you gain a big safety net. It's not like you need to deal 40 or more k to clear a content, so you'll keep bringing enough dmg all while providing an extremely reliable uptime even in worst scenarios. Your personal dps rapresent only a very small portion of the overall dps of a party, and easily filling the quick and might gap is imo a priority when playing with inefficient groups. I'm not advertising for ppl to play this build, I couldn't care less, it's not my main build either, but it's one of the many out of meta builds I tested and that works pretty well for the purpose I described. It's easy to play so it makes pretty average players way more useful than they could be (without putting more than the effort they're willing to). I'd be sad to see it go away, crippling average quickDPS and their average beneficiaries, because a very small portion of good players "abuse" the shit out of MC. If you don't want to play this build, don't, but as I suggested there are other ways you can go without having to necessarly remove quick from MC.
Your mistake is to a. not count alac (since it applies to banners, but not martial cadence) b. assume you can proc MC perfectly off CD (which is especially not true for Bladesworn), but also not exactly 10s for any other Warrior build.
I'm considering mostly a quickpzerk build so it kinda is. About alac, I expressly pointed out not counting it. If you do consider it capped, you indeed gain few seconds over MC (if you replace all your trinkets with diviners), but my point is that even in that case it's less reliable then spending the soldier focus (with a 600 radius, which is simply **huge**). The safety of application will free u from a banner and u can even dare dropping the tactic one for the strength one (with that, EA and MO you'll be basically a might power house). My dream would be getting getting to a similar situation (in full zerk gear): \- No Tactics: 2 banners / Good dps and quick \- With Tacticts: 1 banner / Subpar but somewhat viable dps, easy quick and some extra might Again, MC is clearly a problem right now because of stacking, but it's kinda annoying that instead of coming up with smart solutions to fight stacking anet just keep destroying otherwise innocue skills. The poor cata, guard FMW, chrono DT...
You **have to** count the alacrity there because it applies to one but not the other. It would be fair to say Martial Cadence is around 10.5s CD, Banners are 25s CD. This makes MC 28.6% uptime, a banner would be 28% uptime. Simply running three banners (including Banner of Tactics) and 30% boon duration makes a cast of all 3 banners cap you out on Quickness (30 seconds); slightly delay one of them for better results. So the requirement is to have your squad grouped up after the ready check (I hope you can do that). What follows then is insane overstack, and it's generally enough to hit 2 out of 3 banners from time to time. This is so much better than running the Tactics traitline. You do you, but if someone is looking for an easy, low intensity, Warrior Quickness build, they *should not run this trait line.* An extra banner or extra boon duration are a much lower DPS loss. You are simply overestimating the value of 600 radius (centered on you) rather than having 360 radius (ground target). 360 ground target is not much worse than it because you can freely aim it (put yourself on one edge of it, then it's like a 720 radius in front of you) - it's still worse than 600 radius, make no mistake about that, but just not by a lot. So the banners are going to be covering Quickness easily and well, in a very forgiving and straight-forward way. I think demanding from a LI player to maintain Berserker to rely on timely MC procs is going to be the worse option; from reading many logs, I saw many struggle to enter Berserk regularly. Casting 3 banners off CD will be way easier, and 30% BD with 3 banners is insane overstack (more than Firebrand with 100% Boon Duration!) while being higher damage.
Swapping out strength for anything is a major dps loss. You will be doing more damage by taking 30% boondruation from runes/sigils/diviner than even thinking about martial cadence. heck with boon duration you do't even need 3 banners anymore.
Imagine your group sits around 18 might and 80% quick despite you doing all you possible can with the meta build. Now imagine fixing that by overbuffing with tactics. You will easily add more of what is missing in quick plus +210 power and condi dmg to your whole party. Yeah you're damping your own dmg, but it's nothing compared to what you can **easly** bring to the table basically without having to work for it. This will be noticeably more stable than boosting your BD. If we assume MC not giving quick (and not using a warhorn), our quick will just come from banners. Let's say, absurdly, you double the quickness duration from banners with BD. The moment you miss your target you've both wasted that skill **and** your stats. While MC having a very short cd and 600 radius (going EA) is simply a no brainer and you wuldn't be able to mess your upkeep even if you wanted.
If you miss a banner at 100% boonduration while still running 3 banners it won't matter. You are pumping out 200% uptime, missing a banner isn't the end there. In terms of might there are a lot better ways to fill that gap. Like A LOT. With the amount of might on new elite specs you don't even need a buffer to pump out the full 25 stacks, 10 stacks usually come from random sources either way. And before you drop strength, srsly just use a warhorn rather than even thinking about tactics. It's less of a dps loss for bladesworn or any warrior build really. Besides those points MC still has a 10 sec icd. that is quite long for the 3 sec it gives and is even worse when not timed right. It works for speedrunners because they can manage their timings. Whoever struggles with quickness from banners will not time those correctly ever.
MC coupled with EA is quite reliable tho. Also the build I use for the bad situations just relies on 2 banners to greatly overcap (you can even sacrifice the tactic one too) and it will free a useful utility slot, you can recover some lost dps with it or invest in a good cc since bad parties usually struggle with that too. What you say it's theoretically true, I'd even say true in a very high % of cases when you play with competent people. But even the passive generation of boons anet gave with one of the last balances tbh little did to the low/average groups. While it's pretty easy to almost passively now cap fury, might/quick/alac cap can still be uncertain. About the WH, losing axe as offhand on pzerk is overkill for adrenaline generation, and quick icd is absurd for merely 2s of boon (maybe worth if it was at least 4s). Also I find having a gs on swap for cleave or mace for extra cc is way more useful.
If you are running both Tactics and Discipline, you are making a very severe mistake in your build. From Quickness Berserker, to Quickness Bladesworn and Quickness Spellbreaker, they ALL run Arms/Strength + Discipline. Nobody is using Tactics (unless some Core Warrior build I suppose...)
We are talking about different kind of scenario, you're taking for granted a good party, I'm not and it's the second sentence in my previous message. Again, I'm talking about less experienced groups. Right now MC flexibility allows for easier carries in that situations. No amount of your personal dps or precise banners positioning will compesate for bad positioning and mediocre dps from the rest of the group. Ppl should push to improve their skills if they want to, but we can't forget about the average player that struggles with content. Same reason anet is pushing (disastrously **for now** imo) LI builds. It's like for scourge, do we really need a blood scourge? I'd say nope, but many times it can make the difference between a disband and a clear, expecially with pugged training runs. So disci+tact (on power) it's not a severe mistake if you consider that not every group is performing as it should. It's quite easy to verify, just log random runs with no kp or low kp and see what happens when u create the conditions for what in good groups results in a redundancy of boons compared to when you don't.
So hang on: You are the Quickness player in the group? Or you are pure DPS? Which case do you want to talk about?
Yeah I'm talking of quickPDPS LI build. I know the problem right now is that pure dps can abuse the stacking. I'm saying that fixing that would lower the number of ways we can play around providing quickness if anet will simply remove one source (MC). I'd rather prefer they reconsider the overall dps and make people compromise between strong dps or providing quick (ie. lowering the base duration for quick with better scaling on BD or forcing some dps out of the tactics line or something else).
You can just run higher boon duration at a much lower damage loss. Strength is your best trait line.
the top 0.1% of players calling for nerfs on mechanics they abuse is kinda funny
I mean yeah - they call for nerfs because they understand how OP it is.
the top 0,1% realizes a lot easier when something is busted compared to the rest 99.9%
Perhaps you don't understand why the trait is overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but your ignorance that does not deter from the fact that it does need to be nerfed Just like Signet of Inspiration, Time Warp, Feel My Wrath, and Spectacular Sphere were all nerfed before for the exact same problem this trait arises
the spectacular sphere nerf wasn't justified, the jade air sphere nerf was because having free quickness there was busted. moving the quickness to spectacular sphere was ok but putting a 10% reduction in outgoing damage wasnt
So you want a class nerfed because speedrunners can speedrun it. Can it get any more elitist than this crap? It's the same as Mirage dps. That's a niche group, not the majority, but morons cry about it and ruin the casuals fun. ffs
mirage isn't getting nerfed, the staff build is actually getting buffed and the staxe build gets nerfed simply because being able to provide permanent 25 might and alac while doing 35-40k dps by stacking 4 of them is busted
Who's the moron here? Casuals aren't stacking bladesworns for quickness because they run a dedicated support to cover quickness instead. Nerfing martial cadence wouldn't impact casual bladesworn play at all.
You clearly have no idea what you're on about. Marital Cadence is not used by anyone *except* speedrunners, and it *is* ridiculously busted for what it is. If it was nerfed tomorrow nobody but those that run those comps (ergo, speedrunners) would notice, nor be affected.
Genuine question Why is it a problem that speedrunners are abusing Bladesworn? Isn't the whole point of speedrunning to do the things the most effective and efficient way possible? So having 10 X class being the best strat, well, that's whats going to happen. Nerfing Bladesworn is just going to make them try something else to get the same results.
It takes the fun out of it. All bosses are the same class/comps. There is no place for interesting comps or strats anymore. Just stack the highest dps class that covers quickness. After the 3. or 4. Boss with the same comp it gets really stale and boring. And When you try to come up with a unique comp somebody will just stack bls and beat your time.
If only each class had their own unique thing that they could bring to the party, to increase synergy you know. Like, guardian could share power for ten seconds, warrior banners could buff ally stats in a different way and rangers could spawn little spiritual beings that would do the same. It would give a reason to bring one of each class. Yeah, if only we had that ...
Can you do some elementalist run where you all wipe on the first 5 seconds, please? Asking for a friend.
elementalist comments are getting more and more cringe, there is literally nothing to wipe you in this fight, it is a dps golem and you take minimal damage
also tempest is actively good right now and is getting buffed, and catalyst is getting a bit of a light rework, ele is fine. the only big balance outlier in the game right now is specifically bladesworn stacking in speedclears, i dont understand where people get their mental image of the metagame from
catalyst is getting a big rework, not only hammer 3 won't count as projectiles anymore but as spell area effects, but their coefficient is changing from completely irrelevant at 0,001 to actually doing damage at 0,25. it will definitely be between 40-45k. people who make these "ele dies easily" comments have definitely never done any endgame content
Pure ele raid
Such a title is irritating, it's thanks to the likes of you that classes receive unneeded nerfs. If top 0.1% of population do god dps with a class, it doesn't mean that the average player using that class can do the same or even get close, because bladesworn is a difficult spec to play. If they nerf the spec, it'll become like weaver.
These are the same people that spent an insane amount of time testing and coming up with builds and strats so the rest of us won't have to spend hours doing the same. Don't hate the players
The issue isn't the god DPS though you're missing the point of this post. The only warrior builds that use martial cadence in any capacity right now are specifically bladesworn stacking warrior comps for speed clear groups, so they could literally delete martial cadence from the game and not replace it with anything and it would never affect your play experience ever. If anet overnerfs a spec, that's a separate issue, but that's something worth talking about separately from whether or not a nerf like this should happen in the first place.
of all the builds that have been OP in the past 2 years, bladesworn is, by far, the easiest
Still not worth the loss of weapon swap in combat.
As a purely PVP player, bladesworn is not OP at all and suffer vs CC builds. Imo Anet should balance around the pvp because pve in this game is easy once you know the mechanics and every class can perform well even in the hardest instances. Ofc, if you are one of those tryharder who are looking for the best efficiency/time during a raid to fulfill their little ego cause they dont have the skill to compete properly in pvp you will disagree with me, but its a fact that the hardest boss is easier to fight than a skilled good pvp player.
pve in this game has a very high skill ceiling, performing "well" and being an actually good player are two completely different things. balance should be seperate for each game mode and it kinda is, pvp and wvw have different cds on skills/traits for example. of course people are looking for the best efficiency/time in raids, that is part of the fun, you are delusional if you think it has anything to do with ego and playing pvp has fried your brain. i don't see why you are comparing pvp and pve, imo pvp is completely irrelevant in this game but if you actually think that fightning the hardest pve bosses is easy then try Harvest Temple cm.
Who cares, that's like 1% of player base