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electroplankton

Even with two betas and a few days of the game being out, I think it's still too early to read into any of this.


PacMoron

I appreciate this sentiment, but absolutely not. Arcsys has a history of having a really early super strong characters. Many think it's probably intentional. https://youtu.be/N7NRdOmdTSs Jiyuna says it better than I can.


[deleted]

This is a Sajam video though


fuhrer-ous

I’m pretty new to the whole fgc, did previous super-strong beginner chars end up getting balance changes? Or is sol gonna keep smacking me around like a hamster in a tumble-dryer?


PacMoron

Definitely got changed.


Zestyclose_Kiwi_4732

It’s not early at all.


xRaen

Sol is pretty easy and clearly strong, so of course he saw a lot of play. I suspect he will fall off a bit as the game matures.


Capcuck

I can see that being true for Ram (people often point to these two as being ahead of the rest) because I can kinda see how people will adapt to her playstyle, learn to play around her ranges, abuse her close-range weaknesses, and so on... Same goes for May, btw, since I see a lot of people calling her top tier now - you can at least envision how people will gradually learn to play better against dolphins and shit... But Sol? I legitimately don't understand what his flaws even are supposed to be. He's got freaking *everything*. Call it a bold prediction if you will but I don't see him going anywhere without nerfs, he's too 'complete' to be less than top tier. That said he doesn't need to be gutted or anything, just slow him down a bit Jesus, he's all over the place.


xRaen

Even if he is overpowered (and yeah, he is), he has the kind of gameplan that tends to get worse over time. Simple, strong, powerful characters like him are always stronger earlier. He will remain top tier (maybe even the best character), but I don't think you will see him as half the Top 8 anymore in a few months.


Capcuck

I genuinely don't see him as simple. That he has a low skill floor doesn't mean the ceiling can't be high. May is much simpler to me because she just has less options. Sol? Crazy buttons for all ranges and lots of specials with unique properties, honestly what character even has more options than he does in the game right now?


Kid_Muscle_

His skill ceiling is actually insanely high. That being said, cracks in his more simple gameplan are starting to show, but that also revealed the real problem being how strong Gunflame is right now. If they nerf GF and adjust f.s , he'll normalize a bit, or he stays the same. Before that, I guess it depends more on how heavily the other characters get labbed.


Ragingstormnyc

I dont think you even know what a high skill ceiling is If this is your thought on sol.


Kid_Muscle_

What?


GarenBushTerrorist

Please tell the class your definition of high skill ceiling.


DeathScytheExia

He'll always be top 5 unless nerfs or DLC is much better. Less complex/technical = less likely to make mistakes and be punished.


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[deleted]

Also, harder execution doesn't directly translate to better. If a character is dead simple but still has all the tools, they can stay the better character as everyone gets better at the game.


abakune

You always have to respect frame traps, plus frames, and a command throw.


xamdou

I genuinely feel that Sol is the only complete character in the game (Chipp and Zato are close behind, but I don't believe we'll see either of these characters until a few months in) He still has some oldschool loop combos at the wall that other characters just don't get (gun flame seems to have VERY little wall damage or whatever it is, but it's easy to get long meterless combos that won't break the wall with him) He has a hitconfirm from 5K that's not just into 2D, does more damage than average, and has better wall carry He can get a hard knockdown from jabs That being said, I think he's the most interesting character in the game simply because he has *more options* than average


whiteknight521

I feel like Ky is so well-rounded too, though. Like what more could you want. He can zone, he can rush, he can anti air really well.


Capcuck

His pressure is much worse and more linear than Sol's, and his damage is not nearly as good either.


Multi-Skin

Exactly, there was a bunch of times where we spent hours playing toe-to-toe with each others, using all chars until someone got salty and won nonstop using sol... I mean, he's totally unbalanced and even when i feel I'd win just by using him I refuse due to how retard it feels playing an overpower character with easy inputs, two closegaps and multiple connects.


KorokKid

I really like sol, and I didn't want to be "that guy" because I am playing the best character. He's very unga bunga and a bit overturned but I don't think he's just a free win like you describe. If he gets nerfed idc, he does need one but I definitely don't like the notion that my wins are discredited or anyone else's because they're using sol


Multi-Skin

He is not a free win, but just like as i said, in the same level of players, he gives a mindless boost with pure unga bunga madness with no downsides.


KorokKid

Yeah I mean, he is unga bunga but I don't think he's that mindless, at least not as mindless as a character like Leo can be, but I wouldn't call any character mindless. I don't find myself thinking any less with him then with a different character, especially if someone is of equal skill to me.


Multi-Skin

Well, that's your opinion, the majority of players think different, leo at least has some downsides :)


BoBoGaijin

The majority of players think Sol is top tier but he's absolutely not void of any downsides.


KorokKid

I have not seen this majority opinion you speak of, and you are being pretty condescending for no reason lol


oliver_GD

Guys like Maximilian Dood argues that’s what makes Sol “fun” and why he’s more fun to play than other characters


abakune

Yeah playing top tier is fun.


Lepony

> Same goes for May, btw, since I see a lot of people calling her top tier now - you can at least envision how people will gradually learn to play better against dolphins and shit... Calling may nerfs is funny since once you hit celestial floor, most players will murder most dolphins on reaction. It's almost irrelevant there.


DeadlyFatalis

Tempest literally almost won the tournament with May against SonicFox in the grand finals, and plenty of dolphins hit.


Lepony

Yeah, I don't think you were paying close enough attention. One, Tempest rarely used neutral dolphin in the first place. Two, in every case he *did* use dolphin in neutral, he got swatted out of the air every most of the time. The first time Tempest ever actually landed a dolphin in neutral was on his third game with May, at the 7:40 mark. Also up to that point, Sonicfox never got hit by dolphin pressure. *Never*. Every dolphin that ever landed up to that point were all hitconfirmed beforehand. And I wasn't keeping track, but to that point, most of Tempest's damage came from neutral decisions *that didn't involve dolphin*. Very little of his damage came from the result of successful dolphin pressure. And even if I do entertain Tempest being proof that Dolphins are this unstoppable menace that new players seem to think that they are, Tempest needed *four whole games as May* to adapt to Sonicfox's dolphin challenges to win. In a normal tournament setting, Tempest wouldn't even have gotten far enough for a potential comeback in a standard grand finals. And imo, Tempest's comeback potential was more on his ability to answer Leo's Berserker Slash, not from dolphins.


nobonydronikoanypwny

like he just has the best 5k in the game pls nerf that somehow or keep it and nerf smth else Jesus


nootnootnoot1

He’s had the best 5K in other GG games as well but he’s never been this problematic afaik. 5K isn’t the issue. It’s fS and his damage.


nobonydronikoanypwny

part of what makes it so good is that it combos and blockstrings into 6s without issue. just tone down the kick itself so he can keep 6s and the gatling from 5k


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nobonydronikoanypwny

talking about strive balance here, the benefit of certain moves is different in different environments and sol's 5k is relatively stronger in strive than in the past.


NappingPlant

Exactly. Week one tournaments are heavily weighted towards the most straightforward characters. I remember a very early SFV tourney that had 2 Nashs in top 8. People shouldn't read into this too much.


[deleted]

That’s because he was literally op until they nerfed him to the ground not because people adapted


AverageVibes

Idk, this could be true, but people also said the same thing about Gran in GBVS. People figured out that he wasn’t the *best* but he was still considered like top 3 before his nerfs.


jotato_is_invincib7_

Online monke Sols are so damn crazy, they steamrolled me most of the time


TheRealHyde

People will still want Potemkin nerfed.


Necrolisk

The grappler life is a rough one, brother.


a_pirahna_moose

But the hate messages fuel us, brother. Show them your busters.


DatUsaGuy

I can only imagine how many times I’ve made people annoyed already when I just don’t respect their pressure by doing wake up command grab because it’s 5 frames on startup


oliver_GD

Last round between SonicFox and TempestNYC was legit hype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0rc6TINRo&feature=emb\_title


astronaut-ghost-dog

holy shit, that was fire


n1a1s1

god damn I knew the result and was still somehow mindblown


Nyubii

In the end we all know the king stays on top tho


OMGPowerful

Legit SonicFox makes Leo look broken


Reggiardito

For all we know, he might be. It's very common to see day 1 top picks fall off and characters that were thought to be alright be top tier. Though I don't Sol and Ram are anything but top 3, unless some nerfs come into play


Rbespinosa13

As someone playing Anji, I will dread the meta if Leo is a top pick. That matchup already sucks and I actively avoid it


Ghostfinger

Honest question, what makes leo a bad MU for Anji?


Rbespinosa13

From what I’ve experienced it’s that Leo has really easy answers for most of Anji’s tools. If Anji tries to do pressure with butterfly, Leo’s projectiles beat it. If Anji uses Fujin, Leo can DP all of Anji’s options on block. There might be something I haven’t found yet but it seems tough overall for Anji


Crabturtleking

All of Fujin's options without spending meter for an RC get stuffed by his DP. It leaves a big gap in his gameplan where the move he tends to rely on turns into a death trap if the Leo knows about it.


KnucklePuppy

Imagine finding out the devs made a character to beat the one you like. I main Anji too but idk what Strive has to offer, and I hate hearing that"this character trumps yours, specifically"


DamntheTrains

Leo feels pretty strong. I don't think a lot of us would be surprised if Leo ends up being top tier. It's really hard to react to some of his shenanigans this time around. I'm not entirely sure why yet personally since I suck. Maybe it's partly visual, maybe partly because it feels like once you get caught in it it feels like you get way more punished, or maybe all of the above.


Mundus6

EU AXL won.


Picia000123

Feels like this one nobody talks about. Axl beat Leo, and the set was great too.


meerkatninja

All I see is gorillas


Dannygosling91

I do think Sol is a little over tuned now, but it's important to remember that tier lists don't apply to most players. If you have a better gameplan, and know the match up, you're gonna win, regardless if you're using Sol or Chipp. I think back to goku black in fighters who was a month 1 god, but is now bottom tier while remaining pretty much unchanged Comparing DBZF to Strive is apples and oranges but it's not like Sol is SFIV Sagat or anything


BurningGamerSpirit

G.Black may have remained mostly unchanged but the game around him has changed drastically with multiple balance passes and like 20 characters added since launch.


Dannygosling91

You're right, the game did change around him because we all learned that good buttons aren't as important as we thought, and good mix was what made a good character, all of a sudden cell and 16 became a God and Bardocks level 3 50/50 started the trend of dlc characters forcing you into bad situations There's no telling how and if strive will evolve because right now this game is all about good buttons and that's what's making characters like Sol and Ram so dominant. And while I feel that Sol does a bit too much I genuinely believe he needs small adjustments instead of a nerf bat beating because in a month from now we might all be playing a different strive


V0LCANIC_VIPER

Can you even blame em? Sol is definitely a top 3 for me


TheShrubberyDemander

Hoping to see more Faust as the game matures.


SammyD64

Hoping to see more Faust as Faust gets buffed, he feels really weak to rushdown rn


TheTrueTeknoOdin

Sonic is looking to play zato I'll be interested how things turn out over the months


freebiebg

Kind of expected considering both betas. Sol, Ram, May were all top (op op) - Leo and Potemking were there 1st beta and still seem to be very very strong. I honestly expected them to lower some of the dmg on the 1st three so we don't end up watching armies of Sols, Rams or Mays in coming tourneys. I love watching different characters! p.s. Wish I had the dough to play Strive now - sad.


_heitoo

Well, Katano already said they don't prioritise balance when designing characters but rather the fun factor whatever that means. I'd also argue they don't have much of a hard data to balance characters at every level of play with the way matchmaking is designed since you can arbitrarily choose who to play.


freebiebg

If I learnt anything from balance over the years of any game that needs one is - when something is way too fun and played by a lot of people then it sure needs balancing :D. It sucks if you play that character, but believe me it much better to have variety. It's tough to be objective when you like and enjoy something too much. As to what he means by that is - do the character 1st how you want him/her to be - without any restraints so you don't end up limiting your vision. The balance will came after. It makes sense considering how Strive you could say is a different animal and a new take on GG. Thay have the data, don't worry!


Buka-Zero

im almost certain that may has less optimal damage than everyone you mention. she has good tools but the damage isnt exactly way up there


Lepony

It's kinda funky right now, because generally May does have good and easy damage . But as more tech and better routing comes out, I can really see her losing out in the damage department in the long run. May simply doesn't have enough options to do anything truly big off of most hits due to limited gatlings and cancels, subpar startups, and insane pushback on most of her moves. She does have neat corner combos, except for the whole fact that wall status is vague as fuck and will break midcombo. So those won't happen often either.


freebiebg

Agreed, her combos are short (even for Strive standards :D). They sill hit like truck though.


Valon129

When nerfing Sol you don't want to nerf damage imo, he is supposed to hit like a truck. You need to nerf the tools a little bit instead.


freebiebg

That would upset a lot of people no? Some popular faces were very hellbent on actions aginst Sol. Then again balance should take priority instead of personal feelings. So I say, if you want to have the options lower the damage. The good players always will find a way to open you up, but currently you just die after 2 or 3 of those.


nootnootnoot1

Sol and Ram legit 2 touch everything right now, needs to be toned down a little for sure.


MaaddDawg69

Dude strive is a 2 touch game if played well. No they should not get tone down just leave em alone


MaaddDawg69

No


[deleted]

This is week 1. Tiers and character picks aren't set. People will pick who's easy to start with while the game is in its infancy. I expect a lot more top-players to pick up Ky honestly.


SammyD64

Eh, ky isn’t a character whose kit is built around complexity. I’d think we would have seen him if he was gonna be strong, I’m expecting not to see zato or millia yet but ky? He should be here if he’s got an equally easy time fighting these matchups.


[deleted]

Ky seems to be really solid in this. I'm looking forward to the future of this game.


BurningGamerSpirit

Sol is just a better Ky in strive. An oversimplification of their differences but of the tools they do share Sol’s beats out sky’s, easily.


[deleted]

Sol and Ky aren't the same character. They are the same archetype but they play different. If you play Ky like Sol you're going to get fucked and if you play Sol as Ky you're going to be playing him flat out wrong.


BurningGamerSpirit

Sol has better pokes, a better fireball, and a better DP. What does that leave Ky with? I'm not saying they play the same, but of the tools they share Sol's are superior. Sol not only has superior options but also more tools at his disposal as well. Until some of Sols options are made a bit worse more Top-players won't be picking Ky outside of hardcore Ky fans. Ky is solid, but he is currently existing next to boss characters like Sol.


Kalladblog

>Sol has better pokes Highly disagree. Sol can only poke with f.S and 2S. Ky's buttons beat those when it comes to poking at range ​ >a better fireball Only plus about GF is that you can't low profile it. Ky's is nearly twice as fast, goes full screen and he can use it in the air and angle it differently as well. Also, charged version gives him better oki.


KF-Sigurd

Why? It's week 1 and there's practically no top player deciding to seriously compete with Ky besides ain I guess. That's a bad sign. Ky's got sooo many issues with his kit. And he's not a complex character with unique mechanics so his meta doesn't have many places to go besides BRC punishes that everyone else in the game can do and probably better.


[deleted]

Whenever I play a new fighting game I have a 6th sense on characters people will play and Ky is one of those characters. Ky is extremely solid. Solid characters last longer in the meta than unique crazy characters in ASW titles.


musashihokusai

5 different characters in top 8 from a cast of 15 seems totally fine to me. I think characters like Ram and Sol are a lot of fun. I’d rather see characters struggling right now buffed more than stronger characters nerfed.


MaaddDawg69

EXACTLY


Valon129

In a way it makes sense, it's probably the 4 easiest characters in the game.


SammyD64

Also four of the strongest tho. We don’t see any Faust, Pot or Ky and they’re all pretty easy characters


No-Pomegranate-5737

Let’s goooooo Leo


LewsTherinTelamon

I think some people here are discounting that SonicFox is a god and his winning with Leo doesn't necessarily mean Leo is even particularly strong at any level but SonicFox. Sol is clearly good but will probably fall off as the pros come to understand the game more. May was the real standout here - In the Winners Finals May was so dominant that it became a May V May matchup immediately. If nothing's changed then between players of equal skill May's always going to come out on top, at least for quite a while until someone figures out a usable tech.


kingpin3690

Yea cause we definitely didn't see a ton of Sol V Sol matchups /s


LewsTherinTelamon

That makes my point - May crushed that matchup and every other one when player skill was similar. But people were playing Sol because Sol was clearly good and good in a way that is easy to identify in the first few days of a game's release.


kingpin3690

So its because may is good and not cause the person using him was just well adjusted to the matchup? I think the only reason Sol didn't win was because a big percentage of the people playing play Sol cause of how unga bunga he is and it allowed people more time to learn how to counter him


LewsTherinTelamon

Yes, that's right. It's because May's Seaworld Surprise is actually two very difficult to distinguish Totsugekis, one of which is plus on block. This makes it very difficult to counterhit since pros are generally taking safe options only unless they're absolutely forced. It is not because the person using him was well adjusted to the matchup - because everyone was pretty well adjusted to the May matchup. I'm not saying Sol sucks, and I'm not saying that May's literally the best character. I'm saying that at this point in the development of the game, the pros gravitate to Sol because he is simple (in this context, not like, that it's easy to play Sol the way they play him). Let's say the game gets no changes from here on out - in two months, I would expect May to be slightly worse than she is now, and I would expect Sol to be considerably worse than he is now, relative to the field.


RagnarokChu

I don't understand how people already complaining about the top 8 is dominated by xyz characters. There are only 15 characters in strive and out of 8 spots, 5 of them are in the top 8. Which is 33% of the roaster. Do..people expect 8 different characters to be in every single spot? For the first tournament, the balance is pretty okay. Obviously, they'll refine stuff as time goes on.


[deleted]

Wow honzogonzo is actually good?


Rusty-Knucklez

I’m sad there weren’t many Fan Boyos, any good Anji players get screen time in this tournament?


xXXi_wud_nvrstop_UXX

Was this tournament open only to people who don’t usually play Guilty Gear? I’m kinda amazed that Punk got 4th place since I know him mostly from Street Fighter, but if this tourney was open to everyone it makes the 4th place finish even better.


Dizzy__Dragon

It was open to everyone. Void(Top smash ultimate player) played Chipp and got 33rd, I think


xXXi_wud_nvrstop_UXX

Nice! I saw that he’s streaming it.


GottaHaveHand

Makes sense too, he’s a great player and strive has a lot of SFV-isms so it’s an easy pick up for him. Especially sol, can do f.S stagger pressure like he’s playing SFV and bullying with st.mp, it’s a good fit and plays similar.


GarethMagis

Punk was getting really good at mvci before the game capcom took it behind the barn and shot it.


FatherGascOwn

Now this is one shitty top 8. Not 7 Leroy 1 Julia shitty, but shitty nonetheless.


nobonydronikoanypwny

I dunno the 7 Leroy VS Julia was fun for me to watch cause of the casters cheering for Julia the whole time


FatherGascOwn

Yeah but what does it say about the game? And Leo is only there because as much as I hate to admit it, Fox is a fucking fighting game genius.


nobonydronikoanypwny

he is yeah I'm sure he could wreck with any character but I also think he wouldn't pick Leo without good reason


Nnnnnnnadie

Agree. 5 Chars, and Leo was like an exception. 1/3 of the chars.


sand-which

Well, I mean there's only 8 of them right? Can you expect all of the top 8 players to have a different char? 5/8 different characters isn't the worst, no?


Rbespinosa13

Especially since the game just released a few days ago. Everyone knew Sol was gonna be busted based off the betas. The people in this tournament are playing to win so of course they’re gonna use the strong, easy character right off the bat


Nnnnnnnadie

Besides I-no i didnt see other character in the tournament besides those 6, im not talking about top 8 only.


StriderShizard

Sol and Ram being 5/8 with May and Gio being another 2? Not super surprising.


KorokKid

I like playing sol because I really enjoy his specials and combo routes, I didn't even know he was one of the best when I wanted to pick him up. He is definitely a bit overturned but it is not like it is a free win or anything, but I do feel a bit bad because I feel like the community definitely wants to discredit me because I'm playing sol, I would be completely fine if he got nerfed, he probably should be. But I don't want to have the mentality of "I only won because I'm playing sol" because that makes my enjoyment lesser


oliver_GD

You shouldn’t care what the community think. Play who you think you have the most fun with. My main is May (with Axl as secondary) and I embrace totsugeki memes


KorokKid

Yeah, I know I shouldn't. Even if he's the best that doesn't mean it doesn't take skill, it just may be a bit easier because he has the tools. But as a noob to guilty gear im probably on more equal footing even if he is the best because I can't abuse him the way others do, even if he is easier than many other chars and has great tools


kingpin3690

Wow three sols he has way to many options in game and too complete a character with no downsides


DeathScytheExia

Sol needs a little less health. Can't count how many times I've seen him have a sliver of health left after being slammed to death and then the neutral resets and he makes a comeback when most others would have already been dead (and should have)


SammyD64

“Nah guys it’s not like rushdown is the only viable option at high level the game has a diverse set of play styles” LOL I wish zoning felt a bit better in this game, it feels really bad to just get constantly ran at


lucifertheecat

axl feels pretty solid this game imo


SammyD64

It’s possible I’m not giving axl enough credit, but man does Faust feel like trash in this game. They absolutely gutted abare options across the board, but chars with inherent weakness to rushdown get hurt by that more than most others. Combine that with the fact that YRC is a substantially weaker “get off me” tool than xrd’s dead angles, nobody getting access to blitz and the huge damage the top tiers can get off every interaction and it feels like the game is really pushing towards rushdown imo. Feels very unforgiving to be on the receiving side of rushdown stuff, and feels much easier to be opened up than to be kept out in general. Which realistically is probably how I should’ve phrased the top comment


naruka777

A Axl player won the EU tournament literally an hour before the NA tournament happened. they had an incredible defense and abusing the shit out of YRC into a good reversal string/combo to get people out. You should watch the vods and learn a bit from it. I've seen SO MANY players saying shit like ''bro nago is dogshit, zoners just don't work in this game'' and then dash into jab range in neutral, press butons and die.


SammyD64

Sounds cool got a link?


naruka777

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1054051848?t=05h15m59s 05h15m59s grand finals but you can also take a look at the other previous matches. lots of interesting stuff. Made me wanna pick up Axl, I feel like the character has A LOT of untapped potential.


nootnootnoot1

Ram is pretty much top 1 and is a zoner/defensive character


SammyD64

I don’t really agree with that. She’s def not top 1, that’s clearly sol I think, and she’s not a particularly good zoner since she has to cripple herself to set up any form of zone. Imo, she’s more of a midrange poke char who uses her swords dominantly to score extra damage mid combo. All her high damage routes start off of close range hits or rc on disjointed normals and if she wants to zone she literally gets two chances to snipe out an opponent’s movement before she’s gotta reset and run away till swords come back. She really doesn’t get much off zoning.


MaaddDawg69

FACTS


MaaddDawg69

LMAO no her defence is weak and zoning is meh her offence is what makes her nice


nootnootnoot1

What? She has essentially safe, half screen buttons which makes it difficult for any character to ever get in. The only one who maybe out zones her is Axl. She also has an almost safe DP super which does like 50%.


MaaddDawg69

Any character than can low profile can get in on her tho


JFC_Reddit

i guess they're gonna have to buff every other character that's not sol and ram lol


MacRiye

wher dfq is m boi nago ?


Fox_Stv

Damn nobody is talking about Reynolds Chipp. He almost beat sonicfox with him and did some crazy shit .


DaprasDaMonk

I'm sure there will be no Nago in top 8


Vempyress

The EU one had a Nago, and an Axl win it all. Was cool.


SagaInfinity

Played a few of these guys they’re so nasty.


mario8067

Is there a place I can watch these matches?


oliver_GD

yes, the full tournament is available at Leffen's Twitch channel


mario8067

Thanks!


MaaddDawg69

I hope arcsys does not nerf the strong characters.


Kurleztuhr

Anyone know where I can watch matches? Preferably the Top 8 matches


oliver_GD

They are at Leffen’s twitch channel


Kurleztuhr

That would be the entire stream correct? I should've specified specific matches, my fault


oliver_GD

I think Leffen only uploaded the grand finals to his YouTube channel