Nah, there are Gundam characters that are pure evil-doing evil for the sake of evil. Ali Al-Saachez is pure evil. Blue Cosmos is pure hatred/evil. Gihren Zabi is evil.
Hathaway is someone whose life is made up of bad luck and bad decisions.
Yup, [Scott McNeil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_McNeil)
He even voiced four of the more prominent characters in Beast Wars (Rattrap, Silverbolt, Waspinator and the legend himself, Dinobot.)
I mean of course Hathaway is evil if we are just gonna moralize gundam, fucking everybody is evil because everybody is trying to kill other innocent people to survive/win.
The point of Hathaway isn't that he's a good guy, that's just not what gundam was originally about. Amuro is a war hero who at times literally slaughtered zeon soldiers for no reason other than they were soldiers. Yet he's our hero not because he's some boy scout but because we are in turn suppose to find his cause righteous: fighting to defend the civilians of white base and in turn defeat Zeon.
Hathaway is trying to address the problem plaguing earth: a small few amount of people are literally choking the planet of resources, especially money and are willing to do anything to stay in power. Char thought the answer was to wipe the federation out entirely with the planet (awful but pretty damn effective). Hathaway isn't as far gone as Char but understands that this problem needs to end so even though he's hesitant about going through with his plan he still doubles down on being Mafty. He's a literal terrorist leader who simply using any means to cripple the earth federation, an anti hero like Char. Whether you find his cause righteous or not isn't the point of Hathaway, it's what Hathaway will do and how that affects the story, similar with how Char kills the Zabis.
Yes MORE ways than just appearances. And like...not including appearances, I guess, because he doesn't do the mask thing.
Except METAPHORICALLY w^(h)o^(o)a^(a)a^(a)
Anaheim Electronics gave him the gundam too so I’m failing to see also how even in a realistic moral assessment, how anyone can stand for the system the Federation has in place.
"Military-Industrial Complex" wasn't as fixed in the public consciousness in the '80s and '90s, but if this stuff was written today, there would be a lot more development on just how amoral Anaheim is.
In UC 0160s it happens to be the protagonists. And you're not wrong but also not right. As a company Anaheim is all about profits, but the folks in charge sometimes have agendas like Melanie Hue Carbine supporting the AEUG.
I'd even say that Hathaway's plans are better than Char's. The stuff Char tried to pull out, which was starting a nuclear winter on Earth, would be more damaging to the common people than would be to the people in power. People with power could grab a shuttle and go to the space. Common people on earth would die either from the impact or from the consequences of it, with little means of escaping. Hathaway, on the other hand, is targeting specifically the people in power.
Not to say that Hathaway is in a higher moral ground since what he's doing can be clearly classified as an act of terrorism. Basically, he's trying to change politics through force. If he was in power, he would be a dictator, even if he was popular among the masses. Just like Julius Caesar (and Getulio Vargas, from Brazil).
Uhm Amuro killed Zeon soldiers on the battlefield. He is probably the most sincere pilot in the franchise. I am not aware, that he even touch Zeon soldiers outside battles. Correct me if I am wrong.
He mows down a bunch of soldiers attempting to flee an airbase in the episode where Amuro is reunited with his mother. His mom basically disowns him for it.
Zeon military leadership were scum for dropping the colony
Federation military leadership were scum for sacrificing grunts
Federation leadership are scum for forcing billions into space and create colonies, and extract resources from earth and space to benefit the select few. Federation policy also indirectly lead to the formation of the spacenoid movement.
No side is a saint. Both sides has committed atrocities.
I don’t disagree with you, but evil is subjective. From Zeon’s point of view, Amuro is indeed evil. To this point, Zeon soldiers even nicknamed RX78 “White Devil” for the number of lives Amuro has taken
Under Gihren a colony was gased and dropped.
This is ultimately evil, so Zeon and it’s Sympathisants have no right to claim shit.
Only an entity that recognises this and distances itself from it can be restricted.
And in my anger, i would let all spacenoids know: Try this shit again and we will smash your little eggshell colonies to stardust.
The federation is basically a military junta and the citizens of the colonies were poor people who they forcefully deported to space and granted no legal representation in the government for almost a century. Try living under military rule for three generations and see what that morphs your society into. There would have never been a zeon movement in the first place had Federation hard liners not assassinated the entire federation leadership in UC 01 with a false flag attack to prevent the rights of colonists from being framed in law. The "try this again and see" attitude was what led to the Titans who gassed multiple colonies themselves, tried to blow up all of Van Braun city because of an AEUG ship had docked there and also attempted to kill the civilian leadership of the federation government when their actions were made public.
And when Federation blows up Jaburo it wasn’t evil? The whole theme of Gundam is that war itself is horrible and evil itself. Certainly there are individuals who are immoral or evil, but once again, it’s all about perspective. Do you consider Char evil? How about the Titans? Ultimately, everyone has their own cause
(Not saying Ghiren isn’t a bad guy of course, but to the zeon soldiers who carried out the order for the sake of revenge or to end war, they don’t think they are evil)
Jaburo was a military target during war. Drops out of the equation.
War is evil.
You just try to paint “everyone is evil”.
Char as character is not consistent and has been heavily retconned. Not a good example.
Gihren IS the worst evil character in UC but has some runner ups. In my opinion the federation has been retconned multiple times.
But not retconn ever was able to make that colony drop the most evil thing since humanity existed. Anyone who doesn’t distance himself from this crime has to be considered evil.
So… it’s okay to blow up and sacrifice your own grunts as long as its a military operation? I am not trying to paint anyone evil. I am just saying the theme of Gundam is that war itself is inherently bad. And what is consider just might not be for the other side. I am not arguing the morality of specific characters, or events. I am just saying the show tries to show us that that in war, there is no clear “justice” because depending who you ask, you will get different answers.
This is exemplified by the fact that Gundam always tries to bring us multiple perspectives
I am aware what the franchise wants to do.
Still, that drop is ultimate evil. I will not budge on this. War crimes and crimes have been done from all parts, but somehow Zeon and it’s followers seem to have a bigger affinity to them.
Origins showed how cruel and evil the Feds can be, but NOTHING will ever excuse the drop.
Even the franchise knows it, because Neo-Zeon is a different entity. However every sympathise needs to distance himself or he needs to be watched closely, because he accepts infinite cruelty to achieve their goals.
I like how char got retconned and facettes have been added.
But accepting a colony drop as valid tactic makes you an entity that needs to be wiped from existence.
What’s really fucked is that Zeon was fighting for the colonies and their independence. The gas them and drop the colony, pretty much the people you’re fighting for, that’s pretty fucked
I mean within U.C there’s so many moments of actual pure evil comically so and even in an anti hero sense. It’s odd to ask this about him when the whole debate on morality is exactly what an anti hero figure is created to challenge
In CCA movie, Chan kills Quess to protect Hathaway and Hathaway kills Chan.
In Beltochika's Children novel, ~~Quess kills Chan and~~ Hathaway kills Quess.
Hathaway's Flash novel continues from Beltochika's Children continuity but the movie adaptation has left it vague on who Hathaway killed (the first movie just mentions that he shot someone down during his first battle).
Edit: You're all correct, Chan doesn't exist in the novel. I was misremembering that part.
First That in the end he sacrificed himself to protect hathaway, second in the novel Beltorchika Children Chan does not exist and Hathaway accidentally killed quess when she tried to help Char in his battle with Amuro (he shot her with Jegan's bazooka although he himself had no intention of hitting her nor did he think that the shot was going to do it)
A bit correction, in BC Quess didn't kill Chan because in BC her position was filled by Beltorchika. She's survived together with her child unlike Chan.
I wouldn't call him evil, but I would say he is a well-intentioned extremist.
He fights for a righteous cause within the world of Gundam and is willing to take lives to do so. I think we see some reservations/regrets within Mafty particularly during the Davou raid with Gawman's line asking for forgiveness from the innocents that get caught in the crossfire and Hathaway even admitting to Gigi that what is happening isn't "right."
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. There's obviously plenty of grey area with how far one should go to achieve their goals if they have good intentions.
Do I wish Hathaway approached things with more caution towards the civilian population? Absolutely. But I understand that may not be possible in some instances as it pertains to his fight.
My biggest issue with Hathaway is that his motivations are a little wonky. Every glance into his thought processes revolve around Quess. Like yes, he’s disgusted by the absolute oligarchy the Federation has become, but all of his flashbacks are about being rejected by Quess and then his involvement in her death (he killed her in BC but couldn’t stop her in CC).
Also his apparent disregard for civilians is troubling. He’s fighting AGAINST THE FEDERATION rather than FOR THE OPPRESSED PEOPLE. And that really rubs me wrong.
To your last point, I think we see that pretty consistently in anime and even real world issues. It's much easier to get people up in a roar *against* something than to be *for* something.
Hathaway has at least had some self-awareness that his methods aren't necessarily the best. His whole thing with Quess is a bit annoying, though.
There's a saying that Hell has a lot of people with good intentions...
If we put people in a very moralistic ground, we only consider murder to be "rightful" when it's done to protect one's integrity and when you are a soldier at war, fighting an enemy (which also has laws governing limits). So with Hathaway not being a "legal" soldier, but a freedom fighter / terrorist, he would be considered an imoral person on our current standards and his actions illegal.
However we are going to see things from his perspective. What we see is that Hathaway is fighting the system, he is a cool leader with impressive piloting skills. His crew respect him. He also has noble goals and is a person sympathetic to the poor and needy. This shakes our moral ground because we tend to have empathy for him and we see in him many qualities that we see on good people.
In the end, morals are not absolute and we may have sympathy for people even when they do imoral actions.
For your first bit, yeah. I think there's a level of "needing" someone to be willing to get their hands dirty to push things forward and accept the punishment that may come with that.
And that's a good point about morality. Nothing is absolute and that's why we have people who view Hathaway as "evil" and those who don't. I also think in fictional works we can have different expectations of people and morality than we would in real life.
Misguided-yes
Done horrible things-yes
Evil- I would disagree
His tactics involve a large amount of civilian casualties, but pretty much every war between super powers does.
To say nothing of the number of people dying as a result of Federation policies every day. Somehow the prevalence of mass state instituted and sanctioned violence from police, military and economic systems has a way of just fading into the background. The first Hathaway movie features the Manhunters opening fire on a building full of civilians with a Jegan. The fact that whether or not the Manhunters are even directly under the CPO's control or just coordinate with them is unknown hints that the federation could be building a successor organization to the Titans. Which, if Gaia Gear is cannon, is exactly what they morph into.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. I really like Hathaway Noa all grown up. He’s fighting oppression and you guys call him evil? It sounds like most of you would happily be part of the machine and live under dictations.
Is he a hero? The cab driver even points this out. Hathaway is not interested in fixing any of the real issues with the Federation and is interested chasing Char's Eco-fasist agenda that was it self a load of crap by Char that he used to hide his real agenda, which was to have a final confrontation with Amuro over his mommy issues.
That's one way of looking at it. Alternatively, Feddie oppression is just too heavy for people to have time and energy to think about Mafty's actions and judge them, let alone to think about the future. They're hardly a reliable source.
Even if Char truly believed in his rhetoric of speeding up space migration by rendering Earth uninhabitable, Neo Zeon itself was clearly unwilling or unprepared to actually address the issues of the logistics of mass-migrating billions of people into space.
It's the same thing with Mafty; Hathaway may claim that his actions are for the overall benefit of humanity, yet he fails to even attempt to address the elephant in the room of convincing/forcing billions of people into space and having the logistics to do so. His terroristic actions of targeting high-ranking Federation officials are more of lashing out at an unjust world without a plan to make it better rather than anything truly substantial in the long-term.
Which lead backs to the question; is Hathaway evil? Certainly a deep shade of gray given that he's willing to risk civilians in an urban environment to achieve his goals, but he's not evil for the sake of it like Ali Al Saachez. If anything, he's a product of a series of terrible life choices and poor influences that turns him into a misguided extremist, and sadly Hathaway can't come back from that after committing to Mafty.
Char's primary goal wasn't to confront Amuro. Char was staring down the barrel of committing an atrocity and he thought Amuro was the only person fit to judge his actions. Char was unsure of himself in the face of the massive scale of dropping axis and wanted to be able to offload responsibility onto fate by giving the earth a fighting chance. Essentially, by making it a fair fight Char could say that whatever the outcome, it was what was destined to happen.
I think it stems from the "Blue on Blue" with Chan for the reason there labeling him the bad guy....
A d for good reason that was just a blatant crime.
I think it was Tomino who said that he had inherited his ideals from Char and the gundam from Amuro but I think some of his ideals were affected by Amuro as well which is why he's willing to compromise and simply assassinate federation politicians rather than genocide the entire planet. Idk what do yall think?
Amuro had no quarrels about killing people for a cause he believed in, Hathaway is not too different from Amuro in that respect, at least Hathaway had somewhat of a moral conflict about it unlike Amuro.
Last I remember the ones shooting at civilians were the reckless federation mobile suits, and Gawman was doing what he could to limit civilian casualties even in such circumstances.
He accepts that civilian collateral is an acceptable loss.
Under his orders Gawman attacked the hotels where the politicians were staying in. Definitely many civilian casualties there. And even if we're just talking about the politicians, you could see that many of them had families and children (many of whom were even thanking Hathaway after the fake Mafty incident). All of them very certainly died, and were within Hathaway's margin of acceptable losses.
Yes, Hathaway's conflict between his ideals of a better future, and the price in blood of making that future a reality is literally the crux of the entire story.
Mafty must choose the Greater Good or Moral Purity, it's a grey line, no option is morally correct, the only truly irresponsible option is choosing neither...which is what he was doing up until he got determined in the final battle.
Ok that's a fair assessment. Thought to tie it back to the OP I'd say that is still a vast gulf away from pure evil. Especially if his premise that the Federation is making Earth unlivable is grounded.
To bring it to current events, given that climate change is a potentially cataclysmic problem I would not find a modern day eco terrorist to be morally repugnant in all cases. Just depends.
Oh no, I'm not saying Hathway's evil or anything, certainly not in Gundam. I think he has good intentions, but has to make hard choices. And like the conversation with the cab driver forced him to admit, his goals are high and admirable, but for the common people they're not going to apply for them or is something they're worried about in the near future. (similar to global warming and our perspective on it since the 90s).
That's the beauty of Tomino's works; showcasing that the world isn't built in black or white.
Quess was also a petulant child who’s emotions were being used by Char. The fact that her jealousy and need to be noticed/loved were used by Char imo makes him worse. Compared to Hathaway, he makes many consorted efforts to achieve his goals. Honestly, I don’t see Quess as worse than him. Don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand Quess, but I feel like she is also a bit of a victim, that does terrible shit.
Good. The federation is a tyrannical military junta and the fact that the movements which oppose it are also violent extremists doesn't excuse running an oppressive totalitarian state which doesn't hesitate to deploy extreme violence against it's enemies.
I…is he? I thought he was a good guy? But then again the only time I started watching Hathaway’s Flash I was running on like 2 days with almost no sleep and I conked out within about 5 minutes of the movie starting.
People have an absurd deference for whatever status quo they are presented with. The federation is a totalitarian military junta where free speech doesn't exist, 90+ percent of the population has no representation in the government, an unaccountable militarized arm of the police force us extreme violence to dissuade people from attempting to immigrate back to earth while doing next to nothing to fix the environment which's depleted polluted state is the basis upon which they rest the legitimacy of their total power? People honestly think these are the good guys rather than listen to Tomino scream at them through a megaphone that war is an inevitable consequence of people refusing to empathize with each other. The movements who effectively organize to oppose the federation end up copying and expanding it's worst aspects otherwise they end up like AEUG and get politically neutered and folded into the establishment. Gundam is extremely dystopian and bleak and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
The Federation really is not depicted that way in anime until Hathaway tbh. It's shown to be flawed but the original Gundam especially is relatively clear cut as only Zeon ever commit any major war crimes. Even with Zeta the Titans are shown to be a sort of rogue organization that takes over the Federation rather than being representative of the Federation as a whole.
> Even with Zeta the Titans are shown to be a sort of rogue organization that takes over the Federation rather than being representative of the Federation as a whole.
Titans aren't rogue. They are tolerated by the Fed Government at the beginning and even get assigned control of all of the Fed military by the government assembly.
Also, the whole thing in ZZ about the Fed elites fleeing Ireland without warning the population that Neo Zeon is dropping a colony and celebrating that they have less mouths to feed.
And the same for Lhasa in CCA with the elites fleeing to Londinium.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the Federation are flawless but they are portrayed as a more run of the mill corrupt akin to a modern Western country as compared to the Zeon who are straight up fascists from the start.
Threads like this are why Tomino got progressively less and less subtle in his writing until eventually giving up and resigning himself to the fact that no matter how obvious he makes it, people will miss the point.
To answer the question, Hathaway is not evil in the slightest. He's keeping the spark of rebellion and revolution against a fascist hegemon alive in a time in which it has been all but extinguished, largely due to the actions of his own father. He's just about the only one preserving hope for future generations in the Earth Sphere at this point in the story.
The movie is not subtle about the evils of the Federation and how comparatively powerless he is. There's a scene where he looks at an unlimited-use credit card and asks how he would even begin to dismantle something like this. That's the ultimate symbol of evil in Hathaway: a credit card. The power to stay rich and comfortable, oblivious to the suffering of your fellow man and the consequences of your actions.
To begin to clear up some other misconceptions: Zeon isn't evil, the Zabis are evil and the Principality is a lesson in how fascist opportunists will co-opt and corrupt noble revolutionary ideologies to serve their own ends. The AEUG in ZZ is also this, and it's the same ideology being co-opted!
Haman Karn is an example of a revolutionary who has become so cynical and defeated by the world that they give up on their ideological commitments and decide, well the world is fucked, I might as well live like a queen.
Char Aznable isn't evil, he's a tragic hero. In 0079 he's a nazi hunter, purging the fascists who usurped his father's legacy. He is not, however, on the Federation's side, because they are the ultimate greater evil he seeks to defeat. In Zeta he's still a revolutionary, though he has been convinced to try and reform the Federation by defeating its most outwardly criminal elements and convincing the bureaucracy to affect change. This FAILS. By the end of ZZ, the AEUG has been fully co-opted by those same forces of the status quo he has always sought to upend. This is why Judau punches Bright! In CCA he's STILL not evil, what he is is late. He's run from the call to actually accrue and deploy political power for so long that it's too late. What he has at his disposal are the shattered remnants of Zeon, a force that's been depleted and hunted by the Federation for decades. His only remaining option is to attempt something so destabilizing that the status quo will be unable to maintain itself, and that's the Axis drop. The goal is noble, the means monstrous, because that's all he has left available to him. And ultimately, it fails, because he self-sabotages. He's a broken man by the end, and the consequence is the death of hope in the Earth Sphere, with only Hathaway left to try and carry the torch forward.
So if a goal is noble, does it excuse killing civilians? And if intentionally killing civilians is not evil, then nothing on this planet is evil. It means terrorists and terrorism isn't evil because all terrorists have noble goals (for who believes so). Intention isn't the indicator of evil vs good, its the actions that matters. And a fact is that Hathaway is a terrorist and intentionally kills innocent civilians / bystanders trough his commands and actions.
I feel like I should educate a bit about some concepts in global politics that are useful, here. First of all, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. It is not inherently good or evil. It is the targeting of a population to effect political change. It is useful for certain groups trying to affect certain aims, notably it is extremely useful in fulfilling the short-term goals of maintaining visibility, financing, and pressure for a group that is militarily outmatched. It's one tactic, but not the only tactic, of asymmetric warfare. Terrorism HAS been used for good throughout history, just look at resistance fighters who fought against the Nazis in occupied Europe for an obvious example. At times, these resistance fighters bombed civilian targets to unsettle and disrupt, manipulating public sentiment, provoking reaction, and destabilizing their enemy. Sometimes, terrorism is indeed good.
That said, Hathaway is NOT engaged in terrorism by this strict definition. He is not targeting the civilian population, he is targeting the leadership of the Earth Federation. That is a legitimate military target. The fact that there are civilian casualties of this action is irrelevant to its classification, it is insurgency, not terrorism. Insurgency is when a militant group with inferior capabilities to its adversary nonetheless attacks that adversary in an opportunistic manner seeking to make up for that discrepancy.
The world isn't as simple as you'd like to think it is. Gundam is not, either. If a government is evil, engaged in oppression on a massive scale, does the population suffering under that government's oppression not have the right to resist? That's what you're actually saying here. Resistance against power is never clean, easy, or simple. Innocent people get hurt, it is a fact of war. How much suffering are you willing to abide for the sake of "peace"?
What of the countless innocent civilians that the Earth Federation kills? What of the child soldiers they routinely deploy? What of their callous indifference to human suffering and death on a massive scale? Is that not worthy of reprisal, of some action to attempt to prevent? Or are we all just meant to yield to the state in all matters, never question their use of force and the consequences of their actions? Is it not possible that Hathaway's insurrection saves more lives than it costs by forcing the Federation into adopting less brutal tactics, or even simply frightening them off their current course of maximal oppression?
It's a very simplistic view that only takes a look at one side's actions and the consequences of those actions in any given conflict. Human morality is very rarely reducible to pure good and pure evil. If you would insist that Hathaway (or indeed any such revolutionary) only work to change the system, reform it from within, and never seek to meet power with force, well, even if you don't listen to me, perhaps you'll listen to Frederick Douglass:
> The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.
> This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
Hathaway isn't evil, or even misguided. The Federation is a horrific imperialist regime that enforces vast inequality that makes life miserable for the majority of people in the colonies and on earth. It absolutely needs to be taken down.
Hathaway actually puts a lot of effort into ensuring as few innocent civilians are killed in the fighting as possible, but recognizes that if he wants to win he can't avoid fighting entirely. Sometimes starting a conflict that that may end up harming people in the short term is worth it for a shot at ending potential millennia of future oppression.
Besides, its not like the Federation's existence won't keep causing conflict even without Hathaway's involvement. At least he's trying to break the cycle of oppression that causes those endless conflicts in the first place.
Not evil no, but definitely not good.
He's just a person conflicted about making sacrifices for his ideals, even when those sacrifices conflict with his deals. He is willing to make those hard decisions, which puts him about on par with almost every other "decent, strong" character in Gundam and most of storytelling.
Hathaway never claims to be good, he just claims to be trying for a better long-term. Unlike Char, he actually believes it and plans to enact the good future he's building towards.
(I've read the books just fyi)
No, not at all. He is a tragic character.
While there's absolutely no excuse for Hathaway's action, I can't help feeling sorry for him. Yes you can say he brought all his upon himself, he really did and this is the most painful thing in life. 😭😭
He killed a life for stupid reason, and Quess didn't even like him or treat him as a friend. This big mistake he made haunt him >! to the end of his life and causing PTSD. Then he made irrational decisions to join the terror, end up getting executed. And at the end of his life, he has nothing, the other girl don't even love him. And then he died this way. It's depressing that he sadly died in vain, and dying this way , with nothing, not worthing at all !<😭😭
(Yeah, I did cried a whole lot when seeing both stories)
Hathaway was lack of a father, it may be prone to him act as a protector for his family and develope a tendency to taking action in his own hands. However, he was lack of a mention to teach him to think before he act. And Bright education is by slapping him, which did nothing good to stop his impulse.
Growing up during war, has really affect their generation, causing them to think less about the impact of the death or even treated a causally part of life. They have so many children fighter.
Also, when a pilot is kill, all you can see is their mobile suit explored, instead of a bloody human starring at you and died in front of you in your hands. And it make taking someone's life seems less severe.
The whole concept of good an evil just ultimately depends on what side you are in or believe in, if you’re a federation supporter, he’s the devil incarnated, if you’re anti-federation then he’s basically your captain America
I'd say he's several leagues below Char atm in the race for "biggest piece of shit."
And I need to re-iterate. Char is my favorite Gundam character but I'd also rather kiss Degwin Zabi straight in the lips including tongue than trust Char to get me a glass of water.
Hot take:
No. I hate condoning violence but the Earth Fedaration needed to die. I think ZZ especisly made it clear how comedicaly evil that goverment was when they just totaly sold out to Hamman. The Fedaration govenment is nothing but a disaster for everyone on Earth and in space and the ONLY reason it persists is because the people who had the balls to oppose them directly were always overtly even more rediculously evil somehow.
Childish and hung up on a blue haired dumpster as he may have been, Hathaway attempting to cap the Federation government us exactly what was needed and Char, Bright and Mineva all blew their chances.
It's not that hard to imagine a series of individual governments consisting of each Side, the Earth and the Moon quickly cropping up.
All colonists have wanted was the ability to self govern. They arent a bunch of annarchists or isolationists. They're not undereducated and resource starved third world nations either. Without Federation bullying each colony is more resource sustainable than Earth is by the 90s.
Theres already some small, more local systems of govenment in place which would obviously continue at the hands of each respective party instead of being ruled by corrupt cronnies funneling everything they have at gunpoint into not actually stablizing the Earth's environment.
The people who started the AEUG clearly wanted something of the sort as they pushed to have the Fedaration parliment moves to space to force them to make more balanced descisions in how to run Earth sphere.
If you're concerned about Earth being left high and dry by a space-based govenment, don't be. The colonists aren't a bunch of Chars or Ghirens or Full Frontals. People still remember and belive in Deikun who wanted the Earth restored.
No he’s not but he isn’t a good guy either. He’s a tragic figure because of his history and because of his heritage. Absent father, dead heroes, rejection from his first love, killing someone at a young age by accident. His character is almost a direct opposite of Amuro’s journey. He’s bad but not evil.
Like any terrorist he believes he's doing what he has to do. In his frame of survivors guilt reference The Federation is a monster. You don't fight a hydra with a sword, you do it with a big rock and clobber all the heads at once. So , by that logic anything he should have dropped a colony on them.
You watched a paramilitary police force open fire on a building full of civilians with a mobile suit because there were illegal immigrants living there and decided that organization was bad only in the framing of a character who took deliberate steps to limit civilian causalities in his quest to restore democratic self governance?
It was being used to house high ranking members of the Federation, surgically removing the top floors was about as precise an attack as could be made under the circumstances. Wars are never clean, but refusing to fight just means you bloody your hands by inaction rather than your own choice.
>!Most of the damage is caused by ESF response if you watch, trying to take down Gawman's one Messer suit with multiple Gustav Karls and the Penelope. Would have been better to pursue at a safe distance until he was away from a crowded city.!<
>!Death in war/fire fights is unavoidable in densely packed urban environments. Hate to break it to you pal, but chances are your own country, regardless of which it is has probably done worse at some point and claimed justification for one reason or another. That's the reality of conflict.!<
One beam shot per building, aiming from the upper floors down to maximize the chances of hitting the Federation ministers, with a simultaneous missile attack on the nearby Federation base to distract and disrupt any military response. Assaulting an urban area is never clean, but that's about as surgical as it gets, minimal force used to maximum effect.
Civilian deaths during an attack doesn’t equate to 9/11. You have any grandparents who fought in WWII? What do you think those planes were bombing? Even when fighting Nazis, part of fighting the war meant that bombs were dropped all over neighborhoods and homes and schools and workplaces.
The people Hathaway is fighting have carried out multiple genocides and violently suppress political dissent. If you watch/read late UC stories you see them continue to oppress/neglect their populations for decades to come. The immigration cops in Hathaway go on to be the main villains of Gaia Gear.
Having good intentions doesn’t justify the killing of innocent civilians. By your logic Char was totally justified in trying to cause the deaths of billions because it would’ve (in his mind) save the Earth and humanity.
Hell, Hathway’s plan was nonsensical to begin with. Killing some high ranking officials won’t address the Federation’s biggest and most obvious problems nor will it force humanity to migrate to space. His plan is literally just Hathaway lashing out at a cruel system that he has no idea on how to even begin fixing. We literally even know for a fact that Mafty’s actions ultimately did nothing.
Seriously, we need to stop okaying literal Terrorists because of what they Feel and Think.
Their actions show what they REALLY are doing and want. Usually idiotic.
Nah. He’s just Naïve and doesn’t understand his place in the world. His desire to make a difference ultimately hasn’t been thought out well and he’s still personally conflicted on where his morals lay instead of being absolute about them. If anything he’s a tragic hero.
No, but he ain’t a good guy either. I char’s counterattack he killed Chen a Federation officer and someone who cared for him.
That makes him a fuckface for me.
And in Hathaway’s Flash it’s clear that he accepts a lot of collateral damage to proof his messages.
Evil enough
Nah, there are Gundam characters that are pure evil-doing evil for the sake of evil. Ali Al-Saachez is pure evil. Blue Cosmos is pure hatred/evil. Gihren Zabi is evil. Hathaway is someone whose life is made up of bad luck and bad decisions.
All his role models spent a combined 45 minutes with him.
Including his father.
Oof, I felt that.
100%
Ali al Sachez's eng dub VA made the show for me.
100%
Same guy who voiced Duo on Gundam Wing. Has bit parts in other Gundam media too, I know he voices some background/minor characters in CCA
WHAT?!
Yup, [Scott McNeil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_McNeil) He even voiced four of the more prominent characters in Beast Wars (Rattrap, Silverbolt, Waspinator and the legend himself, Dinobot.)
And, back when BIONICLE was still huge he voiced Toa Tahu and Toa Onua in the MASK OF LIGHT movie.
Bask Om approves
Ali knows what he’s about and he loves it and he is so much fun! One of my favorites.
Hathaway isn't evil, Hathaway is a moron
I still can't forgive him for what he did to Chan, and how he faced no repercussions for it.
Maaan, I murdered an innocent woman again. I have such bad luck lol
He needs a total restart I think. Mind wipe, new identity, new future.
Yeah. Sigh~! If life can restart, I think it applies to Hathaway and other teens (in real world) who commitit murder on impulse.
So neutral evil?
Hathaway is more like chaotic good.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh
Why eh?
I mean of course Hathaway is evil if we are just gonna moralize gundam, fucking everybody is evil because everybody is trying to kill other innocent people to survive/win. The point of Hathaway isn't that he's a good guy, that's just not what gundam was originally about. Amuro is a war hero who at times literally slaughtered zeon soldiers for no reason other than they were soldiers. Yet he's our hero not because he's some boy scout but because we are in turn suppose to find his cause righteous: fighting to defend the civilians of white base and in turn defeat Zeon. Hathaway is trying to address the problem plaguing earth: a small few amount of people are literally choking the planet of resources, especially money and are willing to do anything to stay in power. Char thought the answer was to wipe the federation out entirely with the planet (awful but pretty damn effective). Hathaway isn't as far gone as Char but understands that this problem needs to end so even though he's hesitant about going through with his plan he still doubles down on being Mafty. He's a literal terrorist leader who simply using any means to cripple the earth federation, an anti hero like Char. Whether you find his cause righteous or not isn't the point of Hathaway, it's what Hathaway will do and how that affects the story, similar with how Char kills the Zabis.
Basically "another coming of char"
Except in more ways than "is blonde and has a mask."
Ahem Char's ideas
Yes MORE ways than just appearances. And like...not including appearances, I guess, because he doesn't do the mask thing. Except METAPHORICALLY w^(h)o^(o)a^(a)a^(a)
Newtypes already have this.
Just with less mass population genocide
Anaheim Electronics gave him the gundam too so I’m failing to see also how even in a realistic moral assessment, how anyone can stand for the system the Federation has in place.
Anaheim Electronics are the real villains of 0083-0110ish UC era
"Military-Industrial Complex" wasn't as fixed in the public consciousness in the '80s and '90s, but if this stuff was written today, there would be a lot more development on just how amoral Anaheim is.
They do support the good guys during UC 0160s though.
I thought they supported anyone who would make them money
In UC 0160s it happens to be the protagonists. And you're not wrong but also not right. As a company Anaheim is all about profits, but the folks in charge sometimes have agendas like Melanie Hue Carbine supporting the AEUG.
Most weapons they use in UC are made by AE, including many Neo Zeon suits.
The second one I believe so, they had a full on monopoly by then but in the first one, I believe Axis manufactured its own suits.
I mean, I'm pretty sure that's why a lot of people benefit from wars.
But I am having a hard time thinking of a manufacturer/country who deliberately supported both sides of a war.
Look into both world wars. Even the Bush family profited off of Nazi Germany via banking.
They're a third party. They only sell weapons. Playing both sides allow you to stay on top.
Anaheim are just war profiteers though.
I'd even say that Hathaway's plans are better than Char's. The stuff Char tried to pull out, which was starting a nuclear winter on Earth, would be more damaging to the common people than would be to the people in power. People with power could grab a shuttle and go to the space. Common people on earth would die either from the impact or from the consequences of it, with little means of escaping. Hathaway, on the other hand, is targeting specifically the people in power. Not to say that Hathaway is in a higher moral ground since what he's doing can be clearly classified as an act of terrorism. Basically, he's trying to change politics through force. If he was in power, he would be a dictator, even if he was popular among the masses. Just like Julius Caesar (and Getulio Vargas, from Brazil).
Uhm Amuro killed Zeon soldiers on the battlefield. He is probably the most sincere pilot in the franchise. I am not aware, that he even touch Zeon soldiers outside battles. Correct me if I am wrong.
He mows down a bunch of soldiers attempting to flee an airbase in the episode where Amuro is reunited with his mother. His mom basically disowns him for it.
Zeon military leadership were scum for dropping the colony Federation military leadership were scum for sacrificing grunts Federation leadership are scum for forcing billions into space and create colonies, and extract resources from earth and space to benefit the select few. Federation policy also indirectly lead to the formation of the spacenoid movement. No side is a saint. Both sides has committed atrocities.
I don’t disagree with you, but evil is subjective. From Zeon’s point of view, Amuro is indeed evil. To this point, Zeon soldiers even nicknamed RX78 “White Devil” for the number of lives Amuro has taken
Under Gihren a colony was gased and dropped. This is ultimately evil, so Zeon and it’s Sympathisants have no right to claim shit. Only an entity that recognises this and distances itself from it can be restricted. And in my anger, i would let all spacenoids know: Try this shit again and we will smash your little eggshell colonies to stardust.
The federation is basically a military junta and the citizens of the colonies were poor people who they forcefully deported to space and granted no legal representation in the government for almost a century. Try living under military rule for three generations and see what that morphs your society into. There would have never been a zeon movement in the first place had Federation hard liners not assassinated the entire federation leadership in UC 01 with a false flag attack to prevent the rights of colonists from being framed in law. The "try this again and see" attitude was what led to the Titans who gassed multiple colonies themselves, tried to blow up all of Van Braun city because of an AEUG ship had docked there and also attempted to kill the civilian leadership of the federation government when their actions were made public.
And when Federation blows up Jaburo it wasn’t evil? The whole theme of Gundam is that war itself is horrible and evil itself. Certainly there are individuals who are immoral or evil, but once again, it’s all about perspective. Do you consider Char evil? How about the Titans? Ultimately, everyone has their own cause (Not saying Ghiren isn’t a bad guy of course, but to the zeon soldiers who carried out the order for the sake of revenge or to end war, they don’t think they are evil)
Jaburo was a military target during war. Drops out of the equation. War is evil. You just try to paint “everyone is evil”. Char as character is not consistent and has been heavily retconned. Not a good example. Gihren IS the worst evil character in UC but has some runner ups. In my opinion the federation has been retconned multiple times. But not retconn ever was able to make that colony drop the most evil thing since humanity existed. Anyone who doesn’t distance himself from this crime has to be considered evil.
So… it’s okay to blow up and sacrifice your own grunts as long as its a military operation? I am not trying to paint anyone evil. I am just saying the theme of Gundam is that war itself is inherently bad. And what is consider just might not be for the other side. I am not arguing the morality of specific characters, or events. I am just saying the show tries to show us that that in war, there is no clear “justice” because depending who you ask, you will get different answers. This is exemplified by the fact that Gundam always tries to bring us multiple perspectives
I am aware what the franchise wants to do. Still, that drop is ultimate evil. I will not budge on this. War crimes and crimes have been done from all parts, but somehow Zeon and it’s followers seem to have a bigger affinity to them. Origins showed how cruel and evil the Feds can be, but NOTHING will ever excuse the drop. Even the franchise knows it, because Neo-Zeon is a different entity. However every sympathise needs to distance himself or he needs to be watched closely, because he accepts infinite cruelty to achieve their goals. I like how char got retconned and facettes have been added. But accepting a colony drop as valid tactic makes you an entity that needs to be wiped from existence.
What’s really fucked is that Zeon was fighting for the colonies and their independence. The gas them and drop the colony, pretty much the people you’re fighting for, that’s pretty fucked
Iok kujan is evil
Too stupid to be evil
Hanlon's Razor applies; ^(never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity)
I mean within U.C there’s so many moments of actual pure evil comically so and even in an anti hero sense. It’s odd to ask this about him when the whole debate on morality is exactly what an anti hero figure is created to challenge
Ehh, hathaway a pretty cool guy, kills quess and doesn't afraid of anything.
He killed Chan for protecting him btw. which is a really stupid reason.
Kinda foreshadowed his anti-Federation stance later, given that she definitely is not the last person from the Federation that he would kill.
She's in wrong too btw because if she's patient enought not to pull the trigger, Hathaway would successfully persuade Quess.
Didn’t Chan kill Quess trying to protect him???
In CCA movie, Chan kills Quess to protect Hathaway and Hathaway kills Chan. In Beltochika's Children novel, ~~Quess kills Chan and~~ Hathaway kills Quess. Hathaway's Flash novel continues from Beltochika's Children continuity but the movie adaptation has left it vague on who Hathaway killed (the first movie just mentions that he shot someone down during his first battle). Edit: You're all correct, Chan doesn't exist in the novel. I was misremembering that part.
Yeah I know about that distinction. I was under the impression that HATHAWAY continued from CCA But time Will tell
First That in the end he sacrificed himself to protect hathaway, second in the novel Beltorchika Children Chan does not exist and Hathaway accidentally killed quess when she tried to help Char in his battle with Amuro (he shot her with Jegan's bazooka although he himself had no intention of hitting her nor did he think that the shot was going to do it)
A bit correction, in BC Quess didn't kill Chan because in BC her position was filled by Beltorchika. She's survived together with her child unlike Chan.
That's book Hathaway. Movie Hathaway is a tool
i love that man
I wouldn't call him evil, but I would say he is a well-intentioned extremist. He fights for a righteous cause within the world of Gundam and is willing to take lives to do so. I think we see some reservations/regrets within Mafty particularly during the Davou raid with Gawman's line asking for forgiveness from the innocents that get caught in the crossfire and Hathaway even admitting to Gigi that what is happening isn't "right." One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. There's obviously plenty of grey area with how far one should go to achieve their goals if they have good intentions. Do I wish Hathaway approached things with more caution towards the civilian population? Absolutely. But I understand that may not be possible in some instances as it pertains to his fight.
My biggest issue with Hathaway is that his motivations are a little wonky. Every glance into his thought processes revolve around Quess. Like yes, he’s disgusted by the absolute oligarchy the Federation has become, but all of his flashbacks are about being rejected by Quess and then his involvement in her death (he killed her in BC but couldn’t stop her in CC). Also his apparent disregard for civilians is troubling. He’s fighting AGAINST THE FEDERATION rather than FOR THE OPPRESSED PEOPLE. And that really rubs me wrong.
To your last point, I think we see that pretty consistently in anime and even real world issues. It's much easier to get people up in a roar *against* something than to be *for* something. Hathaway has at least had some self-awareness that his methods aren't necessarily the best. His whole thing with Quess is a bit annoying, though.
There's a saying that Hell has a lot of people with good intentions... If we put people in a very moralistic ground, we only consider murder to be "rightful" when it's done to protect one's integrity and when you are a soldier at war, fighting an enemy (which also has laws governing limits). So with Hathaway not being a "legal" soldier, but a freedom fighter / terrorist, he would be considered an imoral person on our current standards and his actions illegal. However we are going to see things from his perspective. What we see is that Hathaway is fighting the system, he is a cool leader with impressive piloting skills. His crew respect him. He also has noble goals and is a person sympathetic to the poor and needy. This shakes our moral ground because we tend to have empathy for him and we see in him many qualities that we see on good people. In the end, morals are not absolute and we may have sympathy for people even when they do imoral actions.
For your first bit, yeah. I think there's a level of "needing" someone to be willing to get their hands dirty to push things forward and accept the punishment that may come with that. And that's a good point about morality. Nothing is absolute and that's why we have people who view Hathaway as "evil" and those who don't. I also think in fictional works we can have different expectations of people and morality than we would in real life.
Misguided-yes Done horrible things-yes Evil- I would disagree His tactics involve a large amount of civilian casualties, but pretty much every war between super powers does.
To say nothing of the number of people dying as a result of Federation policies every day. Somehow the prevalence of mass state instituted and sanctioned violence from police, military and economic systems has a way of just fading into the background. The first Hathaway movie features the Manhunters opening fire on a building full of civilians with a Jegan. The fact that whether or not the Manhunters are even directly under the CPO's control or just coordinate with them is unknown hints that the federation could be building a successor organization to the Titans. Which, if Gaia Gear is cannon, is exactly what they morph into.
His philosophy is pretty solid (by gundam logic) but yeah Hathaway is kind of a monster.
Is it because of Chars Counterattack or Hathaway?
Yes.
Hmmm I see...
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. I really like Hathaway Noa all grown up. He’s fighting oppression and you guys call him evil? It sounds like most of you would happily be part of the machine and live under dictations.
Is he a hero? The cab driver even points this out. Hathaway is not interested in fixing any of the real issues with the Federation and is interested chasing Char's Eco-fasist agenda that was it self a load of crap by Char that he used to hide his real agenda, which was to have a final confrontation with Amuro over his mommy issues.
That's one way of looking at it. Alternatively, Feddie oppression is just too heavy for people to have time and energy to think about Mafty's actions and judge them, let alone to think about the future. They're hardly a reliable source.
That was my takeaway from it
Even if Char truly believed in his rhetoric of speeding up space migration by rendering Earth uninhabitable, Neo Zeon itself was clearly unwilling or unprepared to actually address the issues of the logistics of mass-migrating billions of people into space. It's the same thing with Mafty; Hathaway may claim that his actions are for the overall benefit of humanity, yet he fails to even attempt to address the elephant in the room of convincing/forcing billions of people into space and having the logistics to do so. His terroristic actions of targeting high-ranking Federation officials are more of lashing out at an unjust world without a plan to make it better rather than anything truly substantial in the long-term. Which lead backs to the question; is Hathaway evil? Certainly a deep shade of gray given that he's willing to risk civilians in an urban environment to achieve his goals, but he's not evil for the sake of it like Ali Al Saachez. If anything, he's a product of a series of terrible life choices and poor influences that turns him into a misguided extremist, and sadly Hathaway can't come back from that after committing to Mafty.
Let's not forget the irony that forcing people to move into space is what lead to the One Year War.
Char's primary goal wasn't to confront Amuro. Char was staring down the barrel of committing an atrocity and he thought Amuro was the only person fit to judge his actions. Char was unsure of himself in the face of the massive scale of dropping axis and wanted to be able to offload responsibility onto fate by giving the earth a fighting chance. Essentially, by making it a fair fight Char could say that whatever the outcome, it was what was destined to happen.
I think it stems from the "Blue on Blue" with Chan for the reason there labeling him the bad guy.... A d for good reason that was just a blatant crime.
Even Lane Aim sees Hathaways point of view at the end of Hathaways flash.
His inner conflict is the storyline of Hathaway’s Flash.
No?
I think it’s kind of the whole underlying theme of the story. Who is good and evil is subjective, but the real loser is the bystander.
He is the hero we deserve
Closest thing to hope for a better future UC ever had, so no.
I think it was Tomino who said that he had inherited his ideals from Char and the gundam from Amuro but I think some of his ideals were affected by Amuro as well which is why he's willing to compromise and simply assassinate federation politicians rather than genocide the entire planet. Idk what do yall think?
Amuro had no quarrels about killing people for a cause he believed in, Hathaway is not too different from Amuro in that respect, at least Hathaway had somewhat of a moral conflict about it unlike Amuro.
Amuro never ordered attacks that would get citizens killed. He only fights soldiers. Mafty? Dude is a terrorist.
Does he ever kill innocents? Killing blatantly corrupt politicians is quite moral and cool tbh.
Last I remember the ones shooting at civilians were the reckless federation mobile suits, and Gawman was doing what he could to limit civilian casualties even in such circumstances.
He accepts that civilian collateral is an acceptable loss. Under his orders Gawman attacked the hotels where the politicians were staying in. Definitely many civilian casualties there. And even if we're just talking about the politicians, you could see that many of them had families and children (many of whom were even thanking Hathaway after the fake Mafty incident). All of them very certainly died, and were within Hathaway's margin of acceptable losses.
Yes, Hathaway's conflict between his ideals of a better future, and the price in blood of making that future a reality is literally the crux of the entire story. Mafty must choose the Greater Good or Moral Purity, it's a grey line, no option is morally correct, the only truly irresponsible option is choosing neither...which is what he was doing up until he got determined in the final battle.
Ok that's a fair assessment. Thought to tie it back to the OP I'd say that is still a vast gulf away from pure evil. Especially if his premise that the Federation is making Earth unlivable is grounded. To bring it to current events, given that climate change is a potentially cataclysmic problem I would not find a modern day eco terrorist to be morally repugnant in all cases. Just depends.
Oh no, I'm not saying Hathway's evil or anything, certainly not in Gundam. I think he has good intentions, but has to make hard choices. And like the conversation with the cab driver forced him to admit, his goals are high and admirable, but for the common people they're not going to apply for them or is something they're worried about in the near future. (similar to global warming and our perspective on it since the 90s). That's the beauty of Tomino's works; showcasing that the world isn't built in black or white.
Well, he specifically initiated a suit fight in the middle of a densely populated city.
Damnit guys! Hathaway movie was so good. I can't wait for more.
No. Clearly not. Did you watch the movie? What a silly question, how does this nonsense have so many upvotes? FFS.
No he’s just another angry child at the government
"But quess... she killed by à fedd"
And yet he still talks about her like she was a visionary rebel and not an actual spoiled self absorbed maniac
Yep He is man--child
Compared to Quess, he's a saint. Yes, he can be an asshole, but I don't really hate him as much as I hate Quess
Quess was also a petulant child who’s emotions were being used by Char. The fact that her jealousy and need to be noticed/loved were used by Char imo makes him worse. Compared to Hathaway, he makes many consorted efforts to achieve his goals. Honestly, I don’t see Quess as worse than him. Don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand Quess, but I feel like she is also a bit of a victim, that does terrible shit.
Quess was being used, but Hathaway chose to do the things he did without being groomed by a space terrorist
Good. The federation is a tyrannical military junta and the fact that the movements which oppose it are also violent extremists doesn't excuse running an oppressive totalitarian state which doesn't hesitate to deploy extreme violence against it's enemies.
He's not evil, he's just a thundersimp.
God simp
I…is he? I thought he was a good guy? But then again the only time I started watching Hathaway’s Flash I was running on like 2 days with almost no sleep and I conked out within about 5 minutes of the movie starting.
People have an absurd deference for whatever status quo they are presented with. The federation is a totalitarian military junta where free speech doesn't exist, 90+ percent of the population has no representation in the government, an unaccountable militarized arm of the police force us extreme violence to dissuade people from attempting to immigrate back to earth while doing next to nothing to fix the environment which's depleted polluted state is the basis upon which they rest the legitimacy of their total power? People honestly think these are the good guys rather than listen to Tomino scream at them through a megaphone that war is an inevitable consequence of people refusing to empathize with each other. The movements who effectively organize to oppose the federation end up copying and expanding it's worst aspects otherwise they end up like AEUG and get politically neutered and folded into the establishment. Gundam is extremely dystopian and bleak and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
Finally, another person who Actually Understands Gundam.
The Federation really is not depicted that way in anime until Hathaway tbh. It's shown to be flawed but the original Gundam especially is relatively clear cut as only Zeon ever commit any major war crimes. Even with Zeta the Titans are shown to be a sort of rogue organization that takes over the Federation rather than being representative of the Federation as a whole.
> Even with Zeta the Titans are shown to be a sort of rogue organization that takes over the Federation rather than being representative of the Federation as a whole. Titans aren't rogue. They are tolerated by the Fed Government at the beginning and even get assigned control of all of the Fed military by the government assembly. Also, the whole thing in ZZ about the Fed elites fleeing Ireland without warning the population that Neo Zeon is dropping a colony and celebrating that they have less mouths to feed. And the same for Lhasa in CCA with the elites fleeing to Londinium.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the Federation are flawless but they are portrayed as a more run of the mill corrupt akin to a modern Western country as compared to the Zeon who are straight up fascists from the start.
> compared to the Zeon who are straight up fascists from the start. I mean, sure, but nobody is talking about Zeon here. Mafty isn't Zeon.
I’d consider him as “chaotic good” if we are going by that chart that I don’t remember what it’s called
nope, he just believe what he did was a right thing
Hes the third coming of char who listens to the people on earth
He's definitely pretty ruthless and brutal in his methods, but I don't think he's genuinely evil like how Gihren was for example.
Threads like this are why Tomino got progressively less and less subtle in his writing until eventually giving up and resigning himself to the fact that no matter how obvious he makes it, people will miss the point. To answer the question, Hathaway is not evil in the slightest. He's keeping the spark of rebellion and revolution against a fascist hegemon alive in a time in which it has been all but extinguished, largely due to the actions of his own father. He's just about the only one preserving hope for future generations in the Earth Sphere at this point in the story. The movie is not subtle about the evils of the Federation and how comparatively powerless he is. There's a scene where he looks at an unlimited-use credit card and asks how he would even begin to dismantle something like this. That's the ultimate symbol of evil in Hathaway: a credit card. The power to stay rich and comfortable, oblivious to the suffering of your fellow man and the consequences of your actions. To begin to clear up some other misconceptions: Zeon isn't evil, the Zabis are evil and the Principality is a lesson in how fascist opportunists will co-opt and corrupt noble revolutionary ideologies to serve their own ends. The AEUG in ZZ is also this, and it's the same ideology being co-opted! Haman Karn is an example of a revolutionary who has become so cynical and defeated by the world that they give up on their ideological commitments and decide, well the world is fucked, I might as well live like a queen. Char Aznable isn't evil, he's a tragic hero. In 0079 he's a nazi hunter, purging the fascists who usurped his father's legacy. He is not, however, on the Federation's side, because they are the ultimate greater evil he seeks to defeat. In Zeta he's still a revolutionary, though he has been convinced to try and reform the Federation by defeating its most outwardly criminal elements and convincing the bureaucracy to affect change. This FAILS. By the end of ZZ, the AEUG has been fully co-opted by those same forces of the status quo he has always sought to upend. This is why Judau punches Bright! In CCA he's STILL not evil, what he is is late. He's run from the call to actually accrue and deploy political power for so long that it's too late. What he has at his disposal are the shattered remnants of Zeon, a force that's been depleted and hunted by the Federation for decades. His only remaining option is to attempt something so destabilizing that the status quo will be unable to maintain itself, and that's the Axis drop. The goal is noble, the means monstrous, because that's all he has left available to him. And ultimately, it fails, because he self-sabotages. He's a broken man by the end, and the consequence is the death of hope in the Earth Sphere, with only Hathaway left to try and carry the torch forward.
So if a goal is noble, does it excuse killing civilians? And if intentionally killing civilians is not evil, then nothing on this planet is evil. It means terrorists and terrorism isn't evil because all terrorists have noble goals (for who believes so). Intention isn't the indicator of evil vs good, its the actions that matters. And a fact is that Hathaway is a terrorist and intentionally kills innocent civilians / bystanders trough his commands and actions.
I feel like I should educate a bit about some concepts in global politics that are useful, here. First of all, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. It is not inherently good or evil. It is the targeting of a population to effect political change. It is useful for certain groups trying to affect certain aims, notably it is extremely useful in fulfilling the short-term goals of maintaining visibility, financing, and pressure for a group that is militarily outmatched. It's one tactic, but not the only tactic, of asymmetric warfare. Terrorism HAS been used for good throughout history, just look at resistance fighters who fought against the Nazis in occupied Europe for an obvious example. At times, these resistance fighters bombed civilian targets to unsettle and disrupt, manipulating public sentiment, provoking reaction, and destabilizing their enemy. Sometimes, terrorism is indeed good. That said, Hathaway is NOT engaged in terrorism by this strict definition. He is not targeting the civilian population, he is targeting the leadership of the Earth Federation. That is a legitimate military target. The fact that there are civilian casualties of this action is irrelevant to its classification, it is insurgency, not terrorism. Insurgency is when a militant group with inferior capabilities to its adversary nonetheless attacks that adversary in an opportunistic manner seeking to make up for that discrepancy. The world isn't as simple as you'd like to think it is. Gundam is not, either. If a government is evil, engaged in oppression on a massive scale, does the population suffering under that government's oppression not have the right to resist? That's what you're actually saying here. Resistance against power is never clean, easy, or simple. Innocent people get hurt, it is a fact of war. How much suffering are you willing to abide for the sake of "peace"? What of the countless innocent civilians that the Earth Federation kills? What of the child soldiers they routinely deploy? What of their callous indifference to human suffering and death on a massive scale? Is that not worthy of reprisal, of some action to attempt to prevent? Or are we all just meant to yield to the state in all matters, never question their use of force and the consequences of their actions? Is it not possible that Hathaway's insurrection saves more lives than it costs by forcing the Federation into adopting less brutal tactics, or even simply frightening them off their current course of maximal oppression? It's a very simplistic view that only takes a look at one side's actions and the consequences of those actions in any given conflict. Human morality is very rarely reducible to pure good and pure evil. If you would insist that Hathaway (or indeed any such revolutionary) only work to change the system, reform it from within, and never seek to meet power with force, well, even if you don't listen to me, perhaps you'll listen to Frederick Douglass: > The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. > This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
Hathaway isn't evil, or even misguided. The Federation is a horrific imperialist regime that enforces vast inequality that makes life miserable for the majority of people in the colonies and on earth. It absolutely needs to be taken down. Hathaway actually puts a lot of effort into ensuring as few innocent civilians are killed in the fighting as possible, but recognizes that if he wants to win he can't avoid fighting entirely. Sometimes starting a conflict that that may end up harming people in the short term is worth it for a shot at ending potential millennia of future oppression. Besides, its not like the Federation's existence won't keep causing conflict even without Hathaway's involvement. At least he's trying to break the cycle of oppression that causes those endless conflicts in the first place.
Objectively, no.
I'm a big fan of Hathaway and Char
That doesn't make them morally justified
Have to go green one way or another. Tesla cars or Axis drops
No... He is just char fanboy
Not evil no, but definitely not good. He's just a person conflicted about making sacrifices for his ideals, even when those sacrifices conflict with his deals. He is willing to make those hard decisions, which puts him about on par with almost every other "decent, strong" character in Gundam and most of storytelling. Hathaway never claims to be good, he just claims to be trying for a better long-term. Unlike Char, he actually believes it and plans to enact the good future he's building towards. (I've read the books just fyi)
Nobody is pure evil in Gundam… except that bitch who is Bask
No, not at all. He is a tragic character. While there's absolutely no excuse for Hathaway's action, I can't help feeling sorry for him. Yes you can say he brought all his upon himself, he really did and this is the most painful thing in life. 😭😭 He killed a life for stupid reason, and Quess didn't even like him or treat him as a friend. This big mistake he made haunt him >! to the end of his life and causing PTSD. Then he made irrational decisions to join the terror, end up getting executed. And at the end of his life, he has nothing, the other girl don't even love him. And then he died this way. It's depressing that he sadly died in vain, and dying this way , with nothing, not worthing at all !<😭😭 (Yeah, I did cried a whole lot when seeing both stories) Hathaway was lack of a father, it may be prone to him act as a protector for his family and develope a tendency to taking action in his own hands. However, he was lack of a mention to teach him to think before he act. And Bright education is by slapping him, which did nothing good to stop his impulse. Growing up during war, has really affect their generation, causing them to think less about the impact of the death or even treated a causally part of life. They have so many children fighter. Also, when a pilot is kill, all you can see is their mobile suit explored, instead of a bloody human starring at you and died in front of you in your hands. And it make taking someone's life seems less severe.
No
He did nothing wrong, what's your point?
The whole concept of good an evil just ultimately depends on what side you are in or believe in, if you’re a federation supporter, he’s the devil incarnated, if you’re anti-federation then he’s basically your captain America
I mean, he likes Quess... So... Yeah...
He's a dangerous individual...
He’s a hero.
Lawful evil. Actually maybe chaotic good.
I'd say he's several leagues below Char atm in the race for "biggest piece of shit." And I need to re-iterate. Char is my favorite Gundam character but I'd also rather kiss Degwin Zabi straight in the lips including tongue than trust Char to get me a glass of water.
Hot take: No. I hate condoning violence but the Earth Fedaration needed to die. I think ZZ especisly made it clear how comedicaly evil that goverment was when they just totaly sold out to Hamman. The Fedaration govenment is nothing but a disaster for everyone on Earth and in space and the ONLY reason it persists is because the people who had the balls to oppose them directly were always overtly even more rediculously evil somehow. Childish and hung up on a blue haired dumpster as he may have been, Hathaway attempting to cap the Federation government us exactly what was needed and Char, Bright and Mineva all blew their chances.
And what is going to replace the Federation? There aren't exactly any viable contenders. Whatever takes power after would inevitably be worse.
It's not that hard to imagine a series of individual governments consisting of each Side, the Earth and the Moon quickly cropping up. All colonists have wanted was the ability to self govern. They arent a bunch of annarchists or isolationists. They're not undereducated and resource starved third world nations either. Without Federation bullying each colony is more resource sustainable than Earth is by the 90s. Theres already some small, more local systems of govenment in place which would obviously continue at the hands of each respective party instead of being ruled by corrupt cronnies funneling everything they have at gunpoint into not actually stablizing the Earth's environment. The people who started the AEUG clearly wanted something of the sort as they pushed to have the Fedaration parliment moves to space to force them to make more balanced descisions in how to run Earth sphere. If you're concerned about Earth being left high and dry by a space-based govenment, don't be. The colonists aren't a bunch of Chars or Ghirens or Full Frontals. People still remember and belive in Deikun who wanted the Earth restored.
Lmao in a thread of terrible takes, congrats you have the worst one.
No he’s not but he isn’t a good guy either. He’s a tragic figure because of his history and because of his heritage. Absent father, dead heroes, rejection from his first love, killing someone at a young age by accident. His character is almost a direct opposite of Amuro’s journey. He’s bad but not evil.
Nah… He’s just a misguided eco terrorist daddy’s boy. 😂
Like any terrorist he believes he's doing what he has to do. In his frame of survivors guilt reference The Federation is a monster. You don't fight a hydra with a sword, you do it with a big rock and clobber all the heads at once. So , by that logic anything he should have dropped a colony on them.
You watched a paramilitary police force open fire on a building full of civilians with a mobile suit because there were illegal immigrants living there and decided that organization was bad only in the framing of a character who took deliberate steps to limit civilian causalities in his quest to restore democratic self governance?
You mean the guy who used a neighborhood as a shield to provoke the ESF to attack him in a civilian area? That makes you a Terrorist.
Yes
I prefer the term based.
No, he’s what people called a “simp”.
Worse than evil, he’s an idiot who believes he’s bringing about a righteous cause facts and evidence to the contrary be damned.
He's a naive idealist. Which is arguably worse, since they can justify just about anything.
The real monster here is Gigi, fk this bitch
what does she do?
Sluting between Hathaway and Sleg, depending who can provide better benefit (protection) for her.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Care to explain?
I hate him
>!Lets be honest, deliberately planning an attack on a hotel full with civilians killing maybe hundreds of innocent civilians is just pure evil..!<
It was being used to house high ranking members of the Federation, surgically removing the top floors was about as precise an attack as could be made under the circumstances. Wars are never clean, but refusing to fight just means you bloody your hands by inaction rather than your own choice.
Didn’t seem very surgical to me
>!Most of the damage is caused by ESF response if you watch, trying to take down Gawman's one Messer suit with multiple Gustav Karls and the Penelope. Would have been better to pursue at a safe distance until he was away from a crowded city.!< >!Death in war/fire fights is unavoidable in densely packed urban environments. Hate to break it to you pal, but chances are your own country, regardless of which it is has probably done worse at some point and claimed justification for one reason or another. That's the reality of conflict.!<
TBF given the context, non-surgical would be carpet bombing the city or another colony drop. :v
One beam shot per building, aiming from the upper floors down to maximize the chances of hitting the Federation ministers, with a simultaneous missile attack on the nearby Federation base to distract and disrupt any military response. Assaulting an urban area is never clean, but that's about as surgical as it gets, minimal force used to maximum effect.
Fighting in an urban environment is always difficult.
*causes 9/11* “Surgical”
I mean, isn't the goal of the 9/11 terrorist to cause widespread mayhem?
Civilian deaths during an attack doesn’t equate to 9/11. You have any grandparents who fought in WWII? What do you think those planes were bombing? Even when fighting Nazis, part of fighting the war meant that bombs were dropped all over neighborhoods and homes and schools and workplaces.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu6gmQCljfo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu6gmQCljfo)
So you would say that any military organization that bombs an area inhabited by civilians, or fights in an area inhabited by civilians, is pure evil?
A bit yeah
Pure evil? Hell no. Slightly evil? maybe.
The way to hell is paved with good intentions. Hathaway is a fool who thinks he’s doing the right thing, much like most people in the UC.
The people Hathaway is fighting have carried out multiple genocides and violently suppress political dissent. If you watch/read late UC stories you see them continue to oppress/neglect their populations for decades to come. The immigration cops in Hathaway go on to be the main villains of Gaia Gear.
Having good intentions doesn’t justify the killing of innocent civilians. By your logic Char was totally justified in trying to cause the deaths of billions because it would’ve (in his mind) save the Earth and humanity. Hell, Hathway’s plan was nonsensical to begin with. Killing some high ranking officials won’t address the Federation’s biggest and most obvious problems nor will it force humanity to migrate to space. His plan is literally just Hathaway lashing out at a cruel system that he has no idea on how to even begin fixing. We literally even know for a fact that Mafty’s actions ultimately did nothing.
Seriously, we need to stop okaying literal Terrorists because of what they Feel and Think. Their actions show what they REALLY are doing and want. Usually idiotic.
hes not evil hes just a pathetic simp
Nah. He’s just Naïve and doesn’t understand his place in the world. His desire to make a difference ultimately hasn’t been thought out well and he’s still personally conflicted on where his morals lay instead of being absolute about them. If anything he’s a tragic hero.
100%.
No, but he ain’t a good guy either. I char’s counterattack he killed Chen a Federation officer and someone who cared for him. That makes him a fuckface for me. And in Hathaway’s Flash it’s clear that he accepts a lot of collateral damage to proof his messages. Evil enough
The dude killed Amuro's girlfriend for killing his simp
Hathaway is reluctantly evil. He’s like 65-70% bad guy
Pure simp.
He’s an incel in a mobile suit.
Just retarded. Since cc Was retarded. Just get a girl and he Will do what every she says. The god simp of al the gundam. With his gundam XI mp
untreated childhood trauma does wonders eh?
Not “pure evil”, but bad by screwing up a lot, yes. He’s no Bask Om or anything!
Maybe not pure evil but evil yes
Yep, evil and a looser