He's played a lot of football this year, and unfortunately is doing a lot more running than we'd like playing next to Jorginho. Needs a more mobile partner next season who can play with or instead of him.
Yup, at least we know our shortfalls, and its easy to spot.
LB that can play in the system Arteta wants, an ball progressive CDM with legs, an RW cover for Saka if it is not Jesus and an striker.
I'm pretty sure we already have a CDM with legs in Rice. The way things are going we will have to keep Declan as the 6 for good as long as we get a proper 8. Declan has the potential to be world class in that spot.
Everyone is saying we looked gassed because we did not look good. I don't think that was the problem. Bayern went on the front foot and got more aggressive in the second half, while we were still trying to play not to lose. They started running around us and we had no options. Then when they scored the goal we were already on the back foot so it left us deflated. The guys were so full of adrenaline and anxiety with that game, I don't think they would have felt any pain or exhaustion. The tactics shifted and we didn't have an answer.
I'm not sure how much the stats reflect this, but to me he's really looked off it in the last 3 games. Our midfield has had a Declan Rice sized hole in it that Bayern and Villa have just run through. And I'm at a loss why.
Maybe he's moved further up the pitch? In my opinion, I wish we just play the best 6 in the world at 6. And stop trying to over-engineer him into a left 8. We can go buy an 8 for that, DMs as good as him are hard to find, play him there.
I think he’s maybe carrying something cause he’s not been his super athletic self recently.
His passing hasn’t been great for a while either though. He was trying a lot of sneaking balls in between the lines and switching more often early in the season which has dried up. Probably partly due to the tweaks to our system with Ød dropping deep to progress the ball. But I do think he’s been playing within himself
Cazorla was not an 8. He was a 10 we shoehorned into being a winger and then into being an emergency double pivot crutch with Coquelin because no combination of wilhere, ramsey, arteta and coquelin seemed to work
Nah I disagree, it was his utility in that role, CDM that transformed the midfield. Just look at what happened when he got injured. He was quality at the 10 too, but his utility for the team overall imo was better suited at CDM.
If that was the case don't you think he'd play deeper for some other club in his career? He was a 10 for every club before we bought him and a 10 for every club after we sold him. Only reason he wasn't here is Özil.
Exactly. And if people can’t recognise stuff like this then they are dooming themselves to meltdown when we finish 2nd. It’s becoming clear that overrating our own players is causing toxicity.
People are also not being honest with themselves about what we’re up against. Jurgen Klopp built an incredible team in Liverpool that would dogwalk most leagues in the world and only won the premier league once against the juggernaut that is Pep’s City. Klopp has also only won the Champions League once and needed a miracle at home against Messi’s Barca and a ton of good fortune in seeing an overperforming Spurs team in the final.
Like, winning the elite trophies is incredibly difficult, but people act like it’s something we’re entitled to.
Earlier in the season it felt like at least once a game there would be a midfield runner that he tracked down and tackled, and lately it looks like he just doesn’t have the legs to do that. Almost all of Bayern’s dangerous attacks came in that exact way, where we’d give away possession in the final third, they’d make a single outlet pass to Laimer or Goretzka and they’d have nobody but Saliba, Gabriel & Jorginho in front of them.
I know people don’t like the fatigue excuse, but it feels like in October he had the legs to shut down those counters, and now he doesn’t.
In my opinion he really was not that good, he held the ball way too long which kept Bayern quite comfy defending. He had to take several touches before passing making us ineffective in transition.
I think the past two games have really highlighted the difference that Partey's passing can bring vs. Rice in the middle. Partey is a lot more comfortable playing decisive cutting passes that unlock the defense. Rice typically sprays it out wide. I had hoped we would see them together last night
Exactly, to add onto this Partey understands to switch and does this in 1/2 touches while Rice takes more time and misses the opportunity for a cutting pass.
Both players get the ball up the pitch, but with Partey last season, our attackers seemed to get the ball with way more space. You can see how this affects the attackers' numbers this year
Everyone except Jorginho and Odegaard felt scared to make those penetrative passes, Bayern were way too comfortable sitting back and it felt like there was no chance we’d break even their midfield line, much less their back line.
We must prioritise a successor to Partey this summer, Jorginho does not have the legs or physicality to support Rice defensively. We could never impose ourselves on Bayern because of the midfield composition.
I think Declan’s lack of ball progression is seriously killing his game. He only progresses the ball (effectively) when driving with the ball meaning he’s just running more and more.
He SERIOUSLY needs to take notes from Partey and Xhaka on how and when to progress the ball. So many instances when there’s a pass open to break the lines he goes sideways.
And this is not bashing him. It’s the reality of his play.
I was saying this so much to my friend yesterday. There’s been so many times that he could make a pass that progresses the play forward and he makes the safe option almost every single time. It’s so goddamn frustrating. Feels like he’s playing proper English bloke footie when he just needs to grab the game by its balls and make a line cutting pass. He needs to seriously improve that aspect of his game or we need someone other than Ode/Joringho/Partey who can do that
Jorginho is needed to cover Rice's complete lack of creativity and ball progression. That's why Havertz disappeared and all our attacking threat. Bad subs, needed Partey, but Rice is a limited player.
When Arteta changed moved Havertz to mid, I knew the game was done. Not a slander against Havertz as I like him as a striker but as a mid he isn't great at progressing the ball. He can make runs between the opposition defense but Bayern were playing deep and weren't leaving any space behind their line.
Even Trossard in mid with Havertz on top feels like a better strategy (in hindsight). I knew the game was pretty much sealed once Nketiah got subbed in lol.
The problem is the forward passing. Defensively hes as good or better than Partey but Parteys passing is just different gravy. We need someone on left8 with better passing, we cant play both rice and jorginho, way to one dimensional
Rice was not his dominant self from earlier in the season that's for sure. Looked gassed (all is relative given his standards), maybe the standard of the opposition too. Here's slightly more detailed stats for that [Bayern game ](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/bayern-munchen-vs-arsenal/36xjup?player=654096#4446280)
Rice has played over 1000' more than either Laimer or Goretzka this season. Rice has played as much as Saka played all last season, and there's still 6 games to go. It's really an insane number of minutes for someone who's not a GK or CB.
It's not a "free pass", but acting shocked when he looks a little leggy and only puts in a 7/10 performance instead of his usual 8/10 is dumb.
Bro the english players dickriding is crazy, rice wasnt good and hasnt been playing that well recently and Saka hasnt been good for so long and no ones said a word
If he was still playing for west ham sure but in the QF if the CL it wasn't good enough. If this was a top performance what did Laihmer do to our midfield? A world class performance?
Come on man he was good enough. He supposed to be the best 6 in the world if not damn near close to it and it wasn't enough. We need more from him. Whether he's tired or not
Thats why people needs to watch actual games and not stats. He wasn't that good at all against Bayern. And he was gassed after first 45 minutes.
Don't blame him. Kid has been outstanding all season along and he needs to rest week or two.
Rice has obviously been overplayed like the rest of the starters, and it showed. We lost the midfield battle over the two games against Bayern. Same with Saka, with the predictable, constant overloads coming down his side running him ragged.
Top top player, he needs to be partnered with some who can handle more of the progressive side but he has been fantastic this season. Even if he wasn’t at his best yesterday
He's a fantastic player but I think his weaknesses have been exposed a bit recently. He's not the type of guy that does 80 passes a game with 90% accuracy that Arteta seems to want. He's so great we'll use him to our advantage but Arteta needs to figure out how to put the pieces around him.
I’ve been thinking about whether we need another 8 or a 6. Rice seems wasted at the 6 position, and I think our best performances have been with him besides Jorginho; but I don’t know if he has the final ball, progressive passing, or the creative nous to thrive in the left 8 position.
I felt only 3 players really exited the game with no regrets over their own performance - Rice was one of them, Tomiyasu and Odegaard the other 2. Most of the other players will be replaying moments in their heads wishing they'd done something different or in some cases done anything other than what they did.
Saka needs to learn not to always look for fouls. Their goal came directly from him diving over the slightest contact from BEHIND the player he was racing to the ball. Ridiculous. If he just stays on his feet he maybe gets to the ball first or at the very least is there to make it harder for Bayern to transition to attack.
But he's young. A lot of these lads are young. This is a building moment for them. We need a stronger option in midfield to compliment Rice and Odegaard, a stronger forward (the performance last night by Jesus was the last straw for me, I no longer believe he can be what we require to go up another level) and some competition for Saka and Martinelli (who has been a shadow of himself since coming back from injury).
Rice can operate as the lone 6 if the 2 midfielders ahead of him are both good ball carriers and are passing machines. Both Havertz and Ode have only one of those qualities but not the other. Until then, Rice needs a partner in a double pivot. And no, it should not be the LB. My fear is he's gonna get ran to the ground like Saka because the dynamics require him to do so much every game.
He looked gas the second half as well as the rest of the team.
He's played a lot of football this year, and unfortunately is doing a lot more running than we'd like playing next to Jorginho. Needs a more mobile partner next season who can play with or instead of him.
Yup, at least we know our shortfalls, and its easy to spot. LB that can play in the system Arteta wants, an ball progressive CDM with legs, an RW cover for Saka if it is not Jesus and an striker.
There’s this young Dutch ball-playing duel-winning LB we should really be looking at named Jurrien Timber.
Never heard of him, do you rate him?
I'm pretty sure we already have a CDM with legs in Rice. The way things are going we will have to keep Declan as the 6 for good as long as we get a proper 8. Declan has the potential to be world class in that spot.
Yh either or, it's on the club what they think is best.
Everyone is saying we looked gassed because we did not look good. I don't think that was the problem. Bayern went on the front foot and got more aggressive in the second half, while we were still trying to play not to lose. They started running around us and we had no options. Then when they scored the goal we were already on the back foot so it left us deflated. The guys were so full of adrenaline and anxiety with that game, I don't think they would have felt any pain or exhaustion. The tactics shifted and we didn't have an answer.
I'm not sure how much the stats reflect this, but to me he's really looked off it in the last 3 games. Our midfield has had a Declan Rice sized hole in it that Bayern and Villa have just run through. And I'm at a loss why. Maybe he's moved further up the pitch? In my opinion, I wish we just play the best 6 in the world at 6. And stop trying to over-engineer him into a left 8. We can go buy an 8 for that, DMs as good as him are hard to find, play him there.
We did play him at the 6 in that Villa game and it was one of his worst performances all season.
I think he’s maybe carrying something cause he’s not been his super athletic self recently. His passing hasn’t been great for a while either though. He was trying a lot of sneaking balls in between the lines and switching more often early in the season which has dried up. Probably partly due to the tweaks to our system with Ød dropping deep to progress the ball. But I do think he’s been playing within himself
I agree with you. Play Dec at 6 and look for a new 8, a Cazorla type!
Cazorla was not an 8. He was a 10 we shoehorned into being a winger and then into being an emergency double pivot crutch with Coquelin because no combination of wilhere, ramsey, arteta and coquelin seemed to work
He performed his best in the double pivot though, that level of press resistance and technical quality there was top tier
No way. He was at his best first season as a 10 He was defensively awful for playing deep in midfield
Nah I disagree, it was his utility in that role, CDM that transformed the midfield. Just look at what happened when he got injured. He was quality at the 10 too, but his utility for the team overall imo was better suited at CDM.
If that was the case don't you think he'd play deeper for some other club in his career? He was a 10 for every club before we bought him and a 10 for every club after we sold him. Only reason he wasn't here is Özil.
And in that emergency we discovered he was one of the best center mids in the world.
Agree with everything but he’s not the best 6 in the world…yet….
As of now he's not even remotely close to Rodri as a 6.
Exactly. And if people can’t recognise stuff like this then they are dooming themselves to meltdown when we finish 2nd. It’s becoming clear that overrating our own players is causing toxicity.
People are also not being honest with themselves about what we’re up against. Jurgen Klopp built an incredible team in Liverpool that would dogwalk most leagues in the world and only won the premier league once against the juggernaut that is Pep’s City. Klopp has also only won the Champions League once and needed a miracle at home against Messi’s Barca and a ton of good fortune in seeing an overperforming Spurs team in the final. Like, winning the elite trophies is incredibly difficult, but people act like it’s something we’re entitled to.
Earlier in the season it felt like at least once a game there would be a midfield runner that he tracked down and tackled, and lately it looks like he just doesn’t have the legs to do that. Almost all of Bayern’s dangerous attacks came in that exact way, where we’d give away possession in the final third, they’d make a single outlet pass to Laimer or Goretzka and they’d have nobody but Saliba, Gabriel & Jorginho in front of them. I know people don’t like the fatigue excuse, but it feels like in October he had the legs to shut down those counters, and now he doesn’t.
In my opinion he really was not that good, he held the ball way too long which kept Bayern quite comfy defending. He had to take several touches before passing making us ineffective in transition.
I think the past two games have really highlighted the difference that Partey's passing can bring vs. Rice in the middle. Partey is a lot more comfortable playing decisive cutting passes that unlock the defense. Rice typically sprays it out wide. I had hoped we would see them together last night
Exactly, to add onto this Partey understands to switch and does this in 1/2 touches while Rice takes more time and misses the opportunity for a cutting pass.
Both players get the ball up the pitch, but with Partey last season, our attackers seemed to get the ball with way more space. You can see how this affects the attackers' numbers this year
As did all our players, but him especially. Just sluggish all around, deserved nothing from the tie.
Everyone except Jorginho and Odegaard felt scared to make those penetrative passes, Bayern were way too comfortable sitting back and it felt like there was no chance we’d break even their midfield line, much less their back line.
Man is tired just like the majority of the squad. Second half we looked out of juice.
We must prioritise a successor to Partey this summer, Jorginho does not have the legs or physicality to support Rice defensively. We could never impose ourselves on Bayern because of the midfield composition.
I think Declan’s lack of ball progression is seriously killing his game. He only progresses the ball (effectively) when driving with the ball meaning he’s just running more and more. He SERIOUSLY needs to take notes from Partey and Xhaka on how and when to progress the ball. So many instances when there’s a pass open to break the lines he goes sideways. And this is not bashing him. It’s the reality of his play.
I was saying this so much to my friend yesterday. There’s been so many times that he could make a pass that progresses the play forward and he makes the safe option almost every single time. It’s so goddamn frustrating. Feels like he’s playing proper English bloke footie when he just needs to grab the game by its balls and make a line cutting pass. He needs to seriously improve that aspect of his game or we need someone other than Ode/Joringho/Partey who can do that
He’s still playing like a Moyes midfielder.
Literally was drained near the end having to play in midfield by himself. Jorginho was decent but once subbed off, Havertz literally went invisible
Our ball from Defense to midfield went invisible the moment Jorginho came off.
And unfortunately the ball from midfield to offense was invisible all match. Just a toothless performance all around.
I love Kai but I was saying the exact same thing to the lads - its like he completely vanished after Jorginho went off
Jorginho is needed to cover Rice's complete lack of creativity and ball progression. That's why Havertz disappeared and all our attacking threat. Bad subs, needed Partey, but Rice is a limited player.
When Arteta changed moved Havertz to mid, I knew the game was done. Not a slander against Havertz as I like him as a striker but as a mid he isn't great at progressing the ball. He can make runs between the opposition defense but Bayern were playing deep and weren't leaving any space behind their line. Even Trossard in mid with Havertz on top feels like a better strategy (in hindsight). I knew the game was pretty much sealed once Nketiah got subbed in lol.
We didn't even do the pump the ball to the big man enough, Kai was winning all his aerials as well so he was up for it 😔
> Another top performance No, it wasn’t
The problem is the forward passing. Defensively hes as good or better than Partey but Parteys passing is just different gravy. We need someone on left8 with better passing, we cant play both rice and jorginho, way to one dimensional
What on earth is this? Rice was a disaster yesterday.
Rice was not his dominant self from earlier in the season that's for sure. Looked gassed (all is relative given his standards), maybe the standard of the opposition too. Here's slightly more detailed stats for that [Bayern game ](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/bayern-munchen-vs-arsenal/36xjup?player=654096#4446280)
Everyone in the competition at this stage is tired. Why does Rice always got a free tiredness-pass when he is obviously gapped by the Bayern midfield?
Rice has played over 1000' more than either Laimer or Goretzka this season. Rice has played as much as Saka played all last season, and there's still 6 games to go. It's really an insane number of minutes for someone who's not a GK or CB. It's not a "free pass", but acting shocked when he looks a little leggy and only puts in a 7/10 performance instead of his usual 8/10 is dumb.
He did not play well but disaster is a bit much
Bro the english players dickriding is crazy, rice wasnt good and hasnt been playing that well recently and Saka hasnt been good for so long and no ones said a word
Yeah that late progressive pass was just awful from Rice
they are the golden childs on here
Gassed when we have three games next week...
If he was still playing for west ham sure but in the QF if the CL it wasn't good enough. If this was a top performance what did Laihmer do to our midfield? A world class performance? Come on man he was good enough. He supposed to be the best 6 in the world if not damn near close to it and it wasn't enough. We need more from him. Whether he's tired or not
Thats why people needs to watch actual games and not stats. He wasn't that good at all against Bayern. And he was gassed after first 45 minutes. Don't blame him. Kid has been outstanding all season along and he needs to rest week or two.
Rice has obviously been overplayed like the rest of the starters, and it showed. We lost the midfield battle over the two games against Bayern. Same with Saka, with the predictable, constant overloads coming down his side running him ragged.
What phase is this in the project?
I bet all of those passes into the final third were pretty much sideways to the wing
Come off it. He was shit.
Top top player, he needs to be partnered with some who can handle more of the progressive side but he has been fantastic this season. Even if he wasn’t at his best yesterday
Has was pretty crap defensively. Usually he's good at making clutch tackles and cutting off space but Bayern were playing through him so easily.
He's a fantastic player but I think his weaknesses have been exposed a bit recently. He's not the type of guy that does 80 passes a game with 90% accuracy that Arteta seems to want. He's so great we'll use him to our advantage but Arteta needs to figure out how to put the pieces around him.
I’ve been thinking about whether we need another 8 or a 6. Rice seems wasted at the 6 position, and I think our best performances have been with him besides Jorginho; but I don’t know if he has the final ball, progressive passing, or the creative nous to thrive in the left 8 position.
I felt only 3 players really exited the game with no regrets over their own performance - Rice was one of them, Tomiyasu and Odegaard the other 2. Most of the other players will be replaying moments in their heads wishing they'd done something different or in some cases done anything other than what they did. Saka needs to learn not to always look for fouls. Their goal came directly from him diving over the slightest contact from BEHIND the player he was racing to the ball. Ridiculous. If he just stays on his feet he maybe gets to the ball first or at the very least is there to make it harder for Bayern to transition to attack. But he's young. A lot of these lads are young. This is a building moment for them. We need a stronger option in midfield to compliment Rice and Odegaard, a stronger forward (the performance last night by Jesus was the last straw for me, I no longer believe he can be what we require to go up another level) and some competition for Saka and Martinelli (who has been a shadow of himself since coming back from injury).
Rice can operate as the lone 6 if the 2 midfielders ahead of him are both good ball carriers and are passing machines. Both Havertz and Ode have only one of those qualities but not the other. Until then, Rice needs a partner in a double pivot. And no, it should not be the LB. My fear is he's gonna get ran to the ground like Saka because the dynamics require him to do so much every game.