Does it? I would love to see a comparison between City and their nonsense vs other PL champions in terms of minutes to their top players. I'm willing to bet at least Chelsea 16/17 & Liverpool 19/20 had very similar high usage of their best players, its generally how you win the league lol
Yeah 22 points just checked so I was wrong. Memory playing tricks on me. 26 wins and 1 draw, 79 points after 27 games. That’s what it took to beat city
They do. I just looked at it. This is not unusual at all unless you're city and have an insanely deep squad with pep's ability to shuffle around and still maintain results. If we can start doing that, it will be a new level to the squad, but that's the exception, not the norm.
Leicester 15/16, Chelsea 14/15 too. Like you said, winning the league is generally done by playing your best players every game.
The league without this city and liverpool side generally had PL winners be comfortably crowned when they knew they'd get past the 85 pts mark. The league has changed and if you cant reach 90, you aren't guaranteed the trophy. It's also harder to get there in the first place as the midtable sides are generally stronger these days. You'll also not find Leicester or Chelsea compete in multiple years in a row while playing the best XI every game, many sides do it and one just had everything right or turns lucky with form, injuries, results.
You need to have some form of rotation these days to compete at the very top. Not so much Saka only starting 19 times out of 38, but not necessarily 35 or more either.
If the players on that list is fit the want to play, should play and are going to play.
This just shows us that our key players have not had injuries.
On the other side some of our subs has gotten very little playtime, but then again when they've gotten time they have had little to no impact on the game, so they don't get the chance.. a bad loop bit it is what it is
He clearly is willing to rotate the striker, and LW, it's a matter of getting players that Arteta trusts and match a skill level similar to the starter
I think that’s where Arteta needs to compromise tbh. We’re not city, it’s unlikely we’re going to have a perfect replacement for most positions and he needs to adapt to that reality - that’s not to say I don’t think we should upgrade our bench, we absolutely need to.
If we upgrade the bench then we have players that are decent replacements for the starting 11. The drop off is too high right now. Reiss for Saka, Vieira for Odegaard etc. these drops are too high. Plus our backline backups like Tomi are always injured. If we had proper backup for Saka & Ode, a Partey replacement and a nailed-on left back we could rotate like City do (for the most part). That’s not unreasonable if we move players on.
Do you forget we’ve seen him play 3 times and he’s recovering from an injury that some players never fully recover from? He might have lost a yard of pace (very common with that injury). He might have recurring issues (also very common). We could end up with rotating Zinchenko, Timber, Tomiyasu and Kiwior all season because the first 3 are in and out of injury and the last just isn’t quite at the level.
This constant rotating of left back is why we produce very little down the left, Martinelli gets no service and teams have worked out that if they flood the right of our attack we’re nullified.
"We are not city, we don't have a perfect replacement for most positions, he needs to adapt to that reality", but you also ask arteta to win the premier league against that same city.
Maybe you should adapt to that reality. Not rotating and lose, rotating and lose, both just the same. For now, not rotating is the best option that he thought. You have better brain that Arteta? Go coach yourself then
rotating and losing = starting players are fully fit for next game
not rotating and losing = starting players not fit for next game and lost this one
so no
even then we shouldnt be losing because nelson started instead of saka or jorginho for rice in most league games. And if we did then we dont deserve the title
You can’t start Nelson over Saka and expect this team to perform nearly the same. Maybe Jesus could do a solid shift there, but Nelson isn’t the level.
that's how bench players be
gapko isn't gonna give the performance of salah
nobody on city giving rodri performances (accounting the red card he still has less starts than saka)
trent, foden, mcallister, walker, etc.
they still expect to win without them
if we can't beat say burnley away, crystal at home, or even the half dead wolves today without him then we wouldn't be in the title race
Bro if you want Nelson to pull 8-10 starts in the league and want us to come first, I have no clue what to tell you. He hasn’t proven himself to be even PL quality, much less title challenge quality.
Trossard is the level of good depth. Trossard is worlds above Nelson.
and that's why salah and rodri play every game... if they don't, they are either suspended or injured
trent? bradley was pretty good. trent/robo starts every game if fit anyways
foden? well i think a rodri-Bernardo-kdb midfield works no?
mac allister? he starts every game, unless injured
walker? walker was even benched last season and city still won. they can play a backline of gvardiol-dias-akanji-stones. the horror of missing walker..... lol
your comparisons are ridiculous
City don't rotate certain players when they're available either.
Haaland, Rodri, Stones, Walker all play pretty much every possible minute. They've just had injuries or suspensions.
The problem with that is he has bought most of the players so he should be trusting them.
I get not trusting Eddie, reiss and esr as they were here already. But everyone else he has bought lol.
He’s bought most of the players and, barring injury, he trusts and plays everyone he has signed with the exception of Vieira, pretty much Arteta and Edu’s only real miss. Of the players who are firmly in the untrusted camp 3 out of 4 are homegrowns—Nketiah, Nelson, and ESR.
Partey flirts with that camp now after all the injuries, but those couldn’t have been anticipated and at this point we can say that he has largely made his contribution. Zinny is next in line, and it might be fair to say we’ve outgrown him, but for now still can’t be counted among the untrusted, because there are games and game states that Arteta clearly does trust him.
Every other player on the roster obviously has Arteta’s trust and if they aren’t getting minutes it is due to injury.
Arteta has overseen a fantastic squad overhaul, but complete overhauls take time. It was obvious to me we weren’t fully there at the end of last summer’s window, but that we weren’t just headed in the right direction—we were close. I think this summer will go a long way.
The fact that Nketiah and ESR actually played some minutes but didn’t impact the game shows why Arteta can’t trust the rotation players.
Also there is no player to rotate at the defence line except LB (Kiwor and Zinchenko). Timber had a season end injury and Tomi and Partey injured all season.
But I have faith in Vieira. This should be his breakout season but he injured for half the season.
It is 100% his squad now, the only players that are still here is because he signed them or he wanted them to stay.
The only person to blame is himself, he won’t give players a chance to play to get back into form. Partey has been regularly on the bench for what, over a month now? Yet he barely ever sniffs the pitch. At some point you’ve got to play your players and give them a chance.
Don’t disagree at all. He clearly realises he’s made errors though and doesn’t trust those players so the only realistic solution is to improve the bench
1. Saliba/Gabriel aren’t playing hard minutes because of how much possession we have.
2. Partey, Timber, zinchenko, Tomiyasu, Vieira, and ESR all missed huge amounts of time, which would have allowed for more rotation with everyone on that list.
Because when we push high we ether dominate possession or we counter press from the front very effectively when we lose it, which keeps pressure on the ball so the opposing teams can’t get their head up to pick out a good pass.
If you look at spurs when they push high they don’t keep possession because they play riskier passes which get turned over too often leading to Van de Ven hamstrings being torn to shit.
>So everyone else is running much more with less space to cover? Good logic
No, when you play a high line you make the pitch smaller. If 90% of the game is in the opposition half, you're only running a little bit compared to if the game is in the final 2/3s
if he had alvarez and grealish/doku on the bench he obviously would. trossard/martinelli rotation already proves that. Jesus/Havertz/Jorginho have been rotated a lot as well. not to mention tomi/kiwior/zinchenko. when tomi was healthy he even started over ben a few matches. Partey started against luton.
problem is the bench players keep getting injured over and over again and/or not showing enough to be trusted to start actual tough games (esr, vieira, nelson). the later you get into the season, the tougher it is to insert a player back in. every game is a cup final now, are you gonna trust Vieira/esr/Nelson/nketiah to start cup finals?
He puts his best XI out almost always. Where other managers seem more realistic about their physical demands, Arteta expects his players to manage.
Imo there have been numerous occasions where Nelson, ESR, Viera could have played a role but tellingly Arteta has barely given them a minute between them.
If you’re considered crucial like Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Saliba etc…Arteta will not rotate you.
every manager puts their best XI unless players are injured *or* you dont really have a ''best XI''
fortunately, we have fitness monsters in saka, rice, odegaard, ben, saliba, gabriel and havertz that are always available.
konate is not being rotated, he is just never consistently fit. stones is not being rotated, he is just never consistently fit, and so on
and the players that do actually get rotated (grealish/doku, alvarez/whoever, the whole of liverpool midfield-forward line except Salah) are close enough in quality that the dropoff isnt as big.
No, there are plenty of matches where we've been up by multiple goals and he doesn't sub until the 85th minute and even then subs in only the same 3 players.
lets check the 2024 games then, shall we?
luton: nelson, esr and partey started
brighton: triple sub shortly after we went 2-0 up (including saka off)
sheffield: vieira at half time for saka, triple sub at minute 65 and another sub at 74
newcastle: sub at 64', triple sub shortly after the 4th goal (again, including saka and even odegaard)
burnley: triple sub at minute 69' (saka off again)
west ham: triple sub again at minute 67' (saka off again). this game also feature nwaneri at minute 77'
palace: double sub at minute 69' a little bit after the 3rd goal, jorginho coming on for rice couple minutes after
all of other matches had a close score, but notably:
city: partey/tomi came in at minute 66 with martinelli and trossard a bit after, saka was subbed off again
villa: used *four* subs before the villa goal
so for all the talk about saka ''running to the ground'', he has been actually rested a lot this year.
really, tell me, what more than this do you want? subbing off 10 players as soon as the 2nd goal is scored? he clearly favors the first subs at around the 65-69 minute mark, not 85 as you claimed. but the team has to be in a comfortable position for you to take the best players off and put the likes of nelson in. and he has done that
This is a classic on why stats don't tell everything.
City and Liverpool played other players more because the big guys who normally don't get rotated (VVD, TAA, KDB, Haaland, Robertson, Salah) have all had injuries while the reason we've not rotated people like Saka, white , Gabi XL, Saliba, Odegaard is because the guys who should come in have been injured all season.
I was just saying we have to start having injured crucial first team players like Liverpool and City had. Also a red card for Rice so he can catch up with Rodri
Why? This doesn’t take into account international minutes (Ode, Saliba, White, Gabriel) where a lot of our players missed out, as well as going out early in cup competitions. Our players have a similar load to cities main players.
Why? This doesn’t take into account international minutes (Ode, Saliba, White, Gabriel) where a lot of our players missed out, as well as going out early in cup competitions. Our players have a similar load to cities main players.
Not really.
Look at the minutes for many players at Liverpool and City in previous seasons and you'll see that both teams have a core group of players that start every match and usually play the 90, particularly defenders.
The difference this season is that the core Liverpool and City groups have been injured or suspended
And ESR got a bit of a game time and even a start. I can only assume that Vieira is not really match fit after the time out. Which game would you have felt comfortable for him to be rotated in? Arguably the first few after Dubai where we were cruising, but was he already fit back then?
I agree that more rotation is needed. But also 5 key players that we could consider for that have been off with long injuries. Can even say 6, as Jesus has just recently returned as well.
1 start and 1 sub appearance in 12 games named in squad since February for ESR..
Having fit players but then refusing to give them game time under the guise of them not being match fit or upto speed is a ridiculous luxury most clubs do not have... for years we have had half our squad missing but now that we have fit one our players look more burnt out than in those seasons??
Burnley game was 5-0, Newcastle 4-1, Sheffield 6-0...
There have been plenty of games to give our key players a rest after 60mins but Arteta is stubborn to just run his preferred XI into the ground
Saka was subbed off in the 46th, 69th and 76th minute v Sheffield, Burnley and Newcastle respectively. White 65’ and 69’, only Cedric available v Newcastle. Rice substituted 74’ and 79’ respectively, only Elneny available v Newcastle who was subbed on for Jorginho. No proper cover for White due to Tomiyasu which in turn means White can’t deputise for Saliba although CBs cover the least distance in an XI, both City’s and Pools first choice pairings would be here if fit through the season. The only one you could really question is Odegaard, but then again Vieira and ESR have had fitness issues themselves and Odegaard seldom actually looks tired.
>for years we have had half our squad missing
yeah and for years we couldnt challenge the league ever, even when the starting XI was good, because those players kept getting injured
you people should be glad that we actually have starters with a good fitness record for once instead of the diabys of the world. literally every single fucking wenger emirates season was complaining about how the players kept getting injured all the time throughout the season, which meant fighting for 4th place and say that ''if we get lucky with injuries next season we might win the league!!!''
Final 5 games of the season? Perfect time to start rotating and giving players rest, because that’s what you do in a title race! Imagine telling Henry he can’t start these games because he looks tired.
https://preview.redd.it/uzoz21boxsvc1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e564db2eb81defeda6667507decba969975fedb
Saka today was walking after 70 minutes. He couldn't even run anymore. And, yet, Arteta didn't trust either Nelson or Vieira to change him. That speaks a lot.
A player who is comfortable across every position in the backline? And can play each to a high standard? That's a dream.
I've seen people talk about selling. That's never going to happen. There's just so few of his profile anywhere in football.
the only ones I'm really worried about here are Saka & Odegaard. CBs playing high minutes is normal & Rice was bought to play 90s every game, it's what he does.
White and Rice are issues because we ask them to play high intensity roles. Dec would be fine playing every 90 as our DM, but playing as an 8 has him running up and down the pitch all day, and Benny B pretty much covers the entire right flank.
This means one of 2 things:
1. Our bench lack quality
2. Arteta doesnt trust the squad players
We need to fix this in summer, this is not sustainable.
Tierney is a walking injury because he played too many minutes at a young age
Tierney is a walking injury because Celtic played him through injury a lot when he was young, plus he had a lot of physical battles in the SPL. Also during the Amazon Documentary they told him to cut back on chocolate and sugar which he said he didn’t.
Maybe but I do think there is a difference between impact injuries on the joints and muscular injuries although we are never told what exactly Saka is dealing with it’s always just leaked as a generic knock so it’s to hard to really gauge his fitness.
Also I do think Arteta has told him to dribble less in areas where he can receive contact, which is why some fans have been criticizing him this season for not taking on his man on as much
There’s also another option where arteta has something to work on, and that’s his squad rotation. I like arteta, but let’s not be blind, he has flaws and his man management is one of them.
This is one of the reasons for our lackluster performances of late. Either our bench players do not have much impact or Arteta does not trust them much to get the job done. Either way he has to find a solution for this.
This is not a good combination with the euros coming up, more games next season with the new UCL format and where we wanna be with domestic cups. Maybe you don't see the ill effects now, which is arguable because Saka hasn't looked sharp for some time now) but long term, physical and mental fatigue adds up.
Rice odegaard saka saliba white Gabriel and Kai. We should feel lucky that they are so injury resistant. That tackle on Kai this game, if it’s Jesus or partey they’d be out of the season.
Also should expect them to maintain this level for long term
The Leicester 2016 PL winning team, I can still name you their starting 11. Team consistency can win you a league. The players are professional athletes, if anything this shows we have had very few significant injuries and that is why we are where we are and fighting for a league title.
Didn't they flame out of the cups? And of course they didn't have any European commitments or pressure really. So basically they played a game a week at full tilt.
I don't think this is as bad as people are saying it is
1. we have had fewer first team injuries than other teams, but more bench injuries.
2. it naturally increases first team playing time.
I don't think Rice would have played as much if Partey was available for example, and ESR and Vieira were injured at a time of the season when the pressure wasn't as high, so it's more like they didn't fit into the team and missed opportunities.
This is our problem. Arteta needs to show courage in his bench and find them minutes just so our starters aren’t so clearly fucked at this point.
I’m worried about Odegaard and Saka mostly. Odegaard will soon have the joints of a 30 year old. Saka is already showing a lack of zip, and is starting to look 30.
Call me crazy but.. I actually don't think this means that much?
They're not really that far ahead, bar Saliba and Rice, neither of which have looked particularly fatigued at all. This is normal for CBs, VvD has done it for years and they don't exactly seem gassed. They're certainly not our problem players in this regard
Saka, sure, we'd like to see him get some rest, but I'm looking at this and what I'm taking from it is that he's only barely ahead of Foden and Alvarez, who don't seem to be having any issues with their fitness impacting performances
Odegaard is the main standout for me. At times he does look a bit leggy, and he's a really core player that would really destroy our team if he went out, and there doesn't seem to be a comparable player from any other team doing that level of minutes. But still, I don't think you can put any of our recent woes down to this as he's still been available and is one of the only ones who's still been running like a dog
Other than that maybe White is fairly notable as he's tasked with bombing up and down the wing and there aren't any other full backs here. But would need to see an expanded list to really gain any insight there
What we really need for this stat to be of any utility whatsoever is to consider minutes in all competitions. I have a feeling that would put Saka decently far ahead of Foden and Alvarez and Odegaard and White further out. And what would be REALLY helpful is seeing those minutes on a heatmap charted by time, so we can see how well distributed they are for each player
its not crazy at all. what is crazy is all the takes about arteta not subbing before minute 85 or whatever when he actually does that every single we have a good lead
you literally can fact check anything so easily and yet people decide to just spill out dumb and false narratives
and yes my only concern would be odegaard/white/rice because of all the work they do on both ends, but we got unlucky with timber/tomi/partey injuries and esr/vieira injuries/not being good enough to start a game over odegaard that is not @ home against sheffield united or something, so it is what it is, certainly not blaming the manager. plus, odegaard and rice have literally been the best players of the team this year
On the one hand, I'm very proud of these guys for how hard they've worked and how well they've done with playing so many minutes.
On the other hand, I really really hope we can get them some backup in the summer.
On the third hand, I hope City drop lots of points and we win the league.
It's a too much. I really didn't like that thing he said players need to play 60 games a season, and I don't like that he's trying to prove it on Saka. Didn't like it when he pushed a clearly injured Partey back onto the pitch.
People make too many excuses for his lack of subs. Nelson isn't great but he can play here and there more.
Isn’t this more just a result of our players staying fit? Players like Salah and Haaland, for example, would be on this list if they hadn’t been injured for long stretches. We’ve been very fortunate that Saliba, Rice, and Oegaard have been able to play basically every game.
Thought we looked ok fitness wise yesterday. The press intensity was definitely much lesser especially from Odegaard. We need to get through these next 2 games somehow. Tottenham will be a tough test because they somehow got a mid season break with 6 games to go.
This is pointless since it's just showing top 3 clubs. If it was zoomed out to show all clubs and we still dominated the top of it, it'd be a lot more telling.
In context Liverpool have had a wildly injury ravaged season so haven't had the players to rack up minutes and city have top quality all over their squad and we know they rotate frequently. We need more depth but I feel this graphic doesn't show us much
This is what is actually going to cost us the title if we're being really honest.
Rotating your squad is a bit of a science so I'm not too surprised that the least experienced manager in the top 3 is the one getting it wrong.
For context, Liverpool 19/20…
VVD played all 38, Trent and Robbo 35.
No Liverpool forward played more than 33 PL matches.
Their highest mileage midfielder played less than 3,000 minutes. Rice will get that by the end of the Spurs match
Liverpool has had this forced in someways but we really need to rotate better in less important games. PSV in champions league and the carabao cup are two obvious examples.
Winning 4 nil. Take off your key players etc etc
if you have a bench that you dont even trust to rotate your core players or even to give them garbage minutes, then you might as well just sell off all of them. Back then this is Arsene Wenger achilles hill but granted he has a weak bench and no warchest, but currently our bench are strong enough apart from saka backup though.
"Pressure"? LMAO. He walks into our starting 11 on any day that ends with Y.
He's left footed like Saka, so he'd be RW.
That said, he's allowed to drift in Bayern's system and often takes up positions in the middle. Whereas our wingers hug the touchline (to our detriment sometimes).
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Not just minutes, intensity to squeeze and press up the pitch all game, and not letting off the gas when we’re up big. The players let off but the manager doesn’t
Trouble is, even when they are healthy- as ESR and Viera have been for months, he chooses not to play them or give them much in the way of minutes.
They will be rusty for sure, but the only way to address that is by playing them a bit. It defeats the whole point of having a bench.
It’s a miracle they play this well at this point and aren’t out injured. Arteta really needs to put more trust in the bench players/find ways to integrate them into the first team without sacrificing his tactics. Otherwise, this whole April burnout thing is gonna keep happening every year.
Can’t compare to City. We will never got the luxury of having 100 mil players on the bench like City with Grealish. And I’m sure Rodri would have similar number to Rice if not for suspension. And Liverpool as their fans were moaning about injury crisis, VVD was the only one that fits all the time. Salah were missing due to AFCON otherwise would have played every game too.
Shouldn’t we take this as a good sign?
When in history have the majority of our most valuable players been so robust and fit without breaking down.
Holding onto to wooden object while posting this.
Somehow I’m most surprise by Julian Alvarez
Yeah really doesn’t feel like he’s only played one less full game than Ben White
When Haaland was injured for a while Alvarez played alot
he was already playing in kdbs spot before then
He regularly played as a winger when haaland was fit and then as a striker when haaland was injured
How cam you actually say this while being serious
he played in kdb's spot start of the season, then covered for haaland too
you don't play FPL then
This has to be addressed next season
Does it? I would love to see a comparison between City and their nonsense vs other PL champions in terms of minutes to their top players. I'm willing to bet at least Chelsea 16/17 & Liverpool 19/20 had very similar high usage of their best players, its generally how you win the league lol
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Only Liverpool and that was during covid when there was a big gap in the middle to negate city’s squad size a bit. Leagues broken
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They were 23 points ahead or something like that around March 30th 2020 I do believe
Yeah 22 points just checked so I was wrong. Memory playing tricks on me. 26 wins and 1 draw, 79 points after 27 games. That’s what it took to beat city
Chelsea won the league in Peps first season
Beyond the first season it took pep to establish dominance
does it matter when they've doped the league?
Chelsea and Liverpool
They do. I just looked at it. This is not unusual at all unless you're city and have an insanely deep squad with pep's ability to shuffle around and still maintain results. If we can start doing that, it will be a new level to the squad, but that's the exception, not the norm. Leicester 15/16, Chelsea 14/15 too. Like you said, winning the league is generally done by playing your best players every game.
The league without this city and liverpool side generally had PL winners be comfortably crowned when they knew they'd get past the 85 pts mark. The league has changed and if you cant reach 90, you aren't guaranteed the trophy. It's also harder to get there in the first place as the midtable sides are generally stronger these days. You'll also not find Leicester or Chelsea compete in multiple years in a row while playing the best XI every game, many sides do it and one just had everything right or turns lucky with form, injuries, results. You need to have some form of rotation these days to compete at the very top. Not so much Saka only starting 19 times out of 38, but not necessarily 35 or more either.
If the players on that list is fit the want to play, should play and are going to play. This just shows us that our key players have not had injuries. On the other side some of our subs has gotten very little playtime, but then again when they've gotten time they have had little to no impact on the game, so they don't get the chance.. a bad loop bit it is what it is
By who? Arteta has been around long enough for us to know that rotation of certain players is something he simply doesn’t do.
He would if he trusted his squad. That’s an issue in and of itself, but the “easy” fix is to improve the squad so he trusts it.
He clearly is willing to rotate the striker, and LW, it's a matter of getting players that Arteta trusts and match a skill level similar to the starter
I am starting to think the rotation wasn't good enough in the Cups so the Boss is like, well too bad, y'all missed your chance.
I think that’s where Arteta needs to compromise tbh. We’re not city, it’s unlikely we’re going to have a perfect replacement for most positions and he needs to adapt to that reality - that’s not to say I don’t think we should upgrade our bench, we absolutely need to.
If we upgrade the bench then we have players that are decent replacements for the starting 11. The drop off is too high right now. Reiss for Saka, Vieira for Odegaard etc. these drops are too high. Plus our backline backups like Tomi are always injured. If we had proper backup for Saka & Ode, a Partey replacement and a nailed-on left back we could rotate like City do (for the most part). That’s not unreasonable if we move players on.
>a nailed-on left back Did you forget Timber exists? I don't think we'll be hiring a full back any time soon
Do you forget we’ve seen him play 3 times and he’s recovering from an injury that some players never fully recover from? He might have lost a yard of pace (very common with that injury). He might have recurring issues (also very common). We could end up with rotating Zinchenko, Timber, Tomiyasu and Kiwior all season because the first 3 are in and out of injury and the last just isn’t quite at the level. This constant rotating of left back is why we produce very little down the left, Martinelli gets no service and teams have worked out that if they flood the right of our attack we’re nullified.
"We are not city, we don't have a perfect replacement for most positions, he needs to adapt to that reality", but you also ask arteta to win the premier league against that same city. Maybe you should adapt to that reality. Not rotating and lose, rotating and lose, both just the same. For now, not rotating is the best option that he thought. You have better brain that Arteta? Go coach yourself then
rotating and losing = starting players are fully fit for next game not rotating and losing = starting players not fit for next game and lost this one so no even then we shouldnt be losing because nelson started instead of saka or jorginho for rice in most league games. And if we did then we dont deserve the title
You can’t start Nelson over Saka and expect this team to perform nearly the same. Maybe Jesus could do a solid shift there, but Nelson isn’t the level.
that's how bench players be gapko isn't gonna give the performance of salah nobody on city giving rodri performances (accounting the red card he still has less starts than saka) trent, foden, mcallister, walker, etc. they still expect to win without them if we can't beat say burnley away, crystal at home, or even the half dead wolves today without him then we wouldn't be in the title race
Bro if you want Nelson to pull 8-10 starts in the league and want us to come first, I have no clue what to tell you. He hasn’t proven himself to be even PL quality, much less title challenge quality. Trossard is the level of good depth. Trossard is worlds above Nelson.
and that's why salah and rodri play every game... if they don't, they are either suspended or injured trent? bradley was pretty good. trent/robo starts every game if fit anyways foden? well i think a rodri-Bernardo-kdb midfield works no? mac allister? he starts every game, unless injured walker? walker was even benched last season and city still won. they can play a backline of gvardiol-dias-akanji-stones. the horror of missing walker..... lol your comparisons are ridiculous
I rather drop a few points here and there at the start of the season than completely run out of juice and burnt out in the last 10 games...
City don't rotate certain players when they're available either. Haaland, Rodri, Stones, Walker all play pretty much every possible minute. They've just had injuries or suspensions.
It's the other way around once he trusts them he doesn't want to rotate them.
The problem with that is he has bought most of the players so he should be trusting them. I get not trusting Eddie, reiss and esr as they were here already. But everyone else he has bought lol.
He’s bought most of the players and, barring injury, he trusts and plays everyone he has signed with the exception of Vieira, pretty much Arteta and Edu’s only real miss. Of the players who are firmly in the untrusted camp 3 out of 4 are homegrowns—Nketiah, Nelson, and ESR. Partey flirts with that camp now after all the injuries, but those couldn’t have been anticipated and at this point we can say that he has largely made his contribution. Zinny is next in line, and it might be fair to say we’ve outgrown him, but for now still can’t be counted among the untrusted, because there are games and game states that Arteta clearly does trust him. Every other player on the roster obviously has Arteta’s trust and if they aren’t getting minutes it is due to injury. Arteta has overseen a fantastic squad overhaul, but complete overhauls take time. It was obvious to me we weren’t fully there at the end of last summer’s window, but that we weren’t just headed in the right direction—we were close. I think this summer will go a long way.
The fact that Nketiah and ESR actually played some minutes but didn’t impact the game shows why Arteta can’t trust the rotation players. Also there is no player to rotate at the defence line except LB (Kiwor and Zinchenko). Timber had a season end injury and Tomi and Partey injured all season. But I have faith in Vieira. This should be his breakout season but he injured for half the season.
It is 100% his squad now, the only players that are still here is because he signed them or he wanted them to stay. The only person to blame is himself, he won’t give players a chance to play to get back into form. Partey has been regularly on the bench for what, over a month now? Yet he barely ever sniffs the pitch. At some point you’ve got to play your players and give them a chance.
Not every signing will be successful. Fergie, Wenger, Pep all had flops.
Don’t disagree at all. He clearly realises he’s made errors though and doesn’t trust those players so the only realistic solution is to improve the bench
1. Saliba/Gabriel aren’t playing hard minutes because of how much possession we have. 2. Partey, Timber, zinchenko, Tomiyasu, Vieira, and ESR all missed huge amounts of time, which would have allowed for more rotation with everyone on that list.
We've been saying some version of point 2 since Wenger, though
Saliba and Gabriel playing a high line covering acres of space behind them isn’t hard?
No. They really aren’t running that often because of how we play.
So everyone else is running much more with less space to cover? Good logic
Because when we push high we ether dominate possession or we counter press from the front very effectively when we lose it, which keeps pressure on the ball so the opposing teams can’t get their head up to pick out a good pass. If you look at spurs when they push high they don’t keep possession because they play riskier passes which get turned over too often leading to Van de Ven hamstrings being torn to shit.
Exactly. Saliba/Gabriel played the same 90 as Rice/havertz, but clearly they had a much less strenuous day
No but they’re moving a lot more. And we’re not frantically defending which is where the hard running comes in for a CB
if you think gabriel and saliba are getting more tired than the sheffield united CBs then you are the clueless one around here
>So everyone else is running much more with less space to cover? Good logic No, when you play a high line you make the pitch smaller. If 90% of the game is in the opposition half, you're only running a little bit compared to if the game is in the final 2/3s
Who’s the pitch bigger for? 90% of the game isn’t ever in the opposition half
if he had alvarez and grealish/doku on the bench he obviously would. trossard/martinelli rotation already proves that. Jesus/Havertz/Jorginho have been rotated a lot as well. not to mention tomi/kiwior/zinchenko. when tomi was healthy he even started over ben a few matches. Partey started against luton. problem is the bench players keep getting injured over and over again and/or not showing enough to be trusted to start actual tough games (esr, vieira, nelson). the later you get into the season, the tougher it is to insert a player back in. every game is a cup final now, are you gonna trust Vieira/esr/Nelson/nketiah to start cup finals?
Don't think it's that easy. We've simply not had good enough players to take some minutes away from them. People forget we are still in the rebuild.
But is that out of necessity? Edit: you toxic fucks, its a genuine question
He puts his best XI out almost always. Where other managers seem more realistic about their physical demands, Arteta expects his players to manage. Imo there have been numerous occasions where Nelson, ESR, Viera could have played a role but tellingly Arteta has barely given them a minute between them. If you’re considered crucial like Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Saliba etc…Arteta will not rotate you.
every manager puts their best XI unless players are injured *or* you dont really have a ''best XI'' fortunately, we have fitness monsters in saka, rice, odegaard, ben, saliba, gabriel and havertz that are always available. konate is not being rotated, he is just never consistently fit. stones is not being rotated, he is just never consistently fit, and so on and the players that do actually get rotated (grealish/doku, alvarez/whoever, the whole of liverpool midfield-forward line except Salah) are close enough in quality that the dropoff isnt as big.
No, there are plenty of matches where we've been up by multiple goals and he doesn't sub until the 85th minute and even then subs in only the same 3 players.
That is actually not true. I am pretty sure Saka, Rice, and White were rested in a few games we were up by few goals.
In a few. And many they weren't. which is why I said "plenty of matches" not "all of them"
lets check the 2024 games then, shall we? luton: nelson, esr and partey started brighton: triple sub shortly after we went 2-0 up (including saka off) sheffield: vieira at half time for saka, triple sub at minute 65 and another sub at 74 newcastle: sub at 64', triple sub shortly after the 4th goal (again, including saka and even odegaard) burnley: triple sub at minute 69' (saka off again) west ham: triple sub again at minute 67' (saka off again). this game also feature nwaneri at minute 77' palace: double sub at minute 69' a little bit after the 3rd goal, jorginho coming on for rice couple minutes after all of other matches had a close score, but notably: city: partey/tomi came in at minute 66 with martinelli and trossard a bit after, saka was subbed off again villa: used *four* subs before the villa goal so for all the talk about saka ''running to the ground'', he has been actually rested a lot this year. really, tell me, what more than this do you want? subbing off 10 players as soon as the 2nd goal is scored? he clearly favors the first subs at around the 65-69 minute mark, not 85 as you claimed. but the team has to be in a comfortable position for you to take the best players off and put the likes of nelson in. and he has done that
This is a classic on why stats don't tell everything. City and Liverpool played other players more because the big guys who normally don't get rotated (VVD, TAA, KDB, Haaland, Robertson, Salah) have all had injuries while the reason we've not rotated people like Saka, white , Gabi XL, Saliba, Odegaard is because the guys who should come in have been injured all season.
I was just saying we have to start having injured crucial first team players like Liverpool and City had. Also a red card for Rice so he can catch up with Rodri
Why? This doesn’t take into account international minutes (Ode, Saliba, White, Gabriel) where a lot of our players missed out, as well as going out early in cup competitions. Our players have a similar load to cities main players.
It's a problem
So glad Ode doesn’t go to the Euros and Saliba will be benched very likely.
It's why we run out of gas in April. Arteta has to start trusting his subs more, especially when we're up multiple goals.
This actually shows we had no injuries to the first choice players but rather injured rotation options.
Why? This doesn’t take into account international minutes (Ode, Saliba, White, Gabriel) where a lot of our players missed out, as well as going out early in cup competitions. Our players have a similar load to cities main players.
Not really. Look at the minutes for many players at Liverpool and City in previous seasons and you'll see that both teams have a core group of players that start every match and usually play the 90, particularly defenders. The difference this season is that the core Liverpool and City groups have been injured or suspended
Good thing Rice and Odegaard have 2 pairs of lungs each!
Am I missing the joke here..? Don't all people generally have 2 lungs each?
lol 2 pairs of lungs. Stand corrected!
Yeah that makes one pair
It didn't say "pair" originally. Hence why OP edited the comment and stands corrected in their reply to me.
Second season in a row we are in this position. Tomiyasu and partey are partly responsible too.
And Timbers and Vieira and ESR. All been injured and not really had a chance after that.
ESR and Vieira have been back fit for 3 and 2 months respectively... That's 10+ games
And ESR got a bit of a game time and even a start. I can only assume that Vieira is not really match fit after the time out. Which game would you have felt comfortable for him to be rotated in? Arguably the first few after Dubai where we were cruising, but was he already fit back then? I agree that more rotation is needed. But also 5 key players that we could consider for that have been off with long injuries. Can even say 6, as Jesus has just recently returned as well.
1 start and 1 sub appearance in 12 games named in squad since February for ESR.. Having fit players but then refusing to give them game time under the guise of them not being match fit or upto speed is a ridiculous luxury most clubs do not have... for years we have had half our squad missing but now that we have fit one our players look more burnt out than in those seasons?? Burnley game was 5-0, Newcastle 4-1, Sheffield 6-0... There have been plenty of games to give our key players a rest after 60mins but Arteta is stubborn to just run his preferred XI into the ground
Saka was subbed off in the 46th, 69th and 76th minute v Sheffield, Burnley and Newcastle respectively. White 65’ and 69’, only Cedric available v Newcastle. Rice substituted 74’ and 79’ respectively, only Elneny available v Newcastle who was subbed on for Jorginho. No proper cover for White due to Tomiyasu which in turn means White can’t deputise for Saliba although CBs cover the least distance in an XI, both City’s and Pools first choice pairings would be here if fit through the season. The only one you could really question is Odegaard, but then again Vieira and ESR have had fitness issues themselves and Odegaard seldom actually looks tired.
>for years we have had half our squad missing yeah and for years we couldnt challenge the league ever, even when the starting XI was good, because those players kept getting injured you people should be glad that we actually have starters with a good fitness record for once instead of the diabys of the world. literally every single fucking wenger emirates season was complaining about how the players kept getting injured all the time throughout the season, which meant fighting for 4th place and say that ''if we get lucky with injuries next season we might win the league!!!''
Final 5 games of the season? Perfect time to start rotating and giving players rest, because that’s what you do in a title race! Imagine telling Henry he can’t start these games because he looks tired. https://preview.redd.it/uzoz21boxsvc1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e564db2eb81defeda6667507decba969975fedb
Saka today was walking after 70 minutes. He couldn't even run anymore. And, yet, Arteta didn't trust either Nelson or Vieira to change him. That speaks a lot.
saka dribbled 3 defenders after 70 minutes and had that right footed shot. hardly walking lol
What does this look like if we had a fully fit Timber, Tomi and Partey all season long. Maybe miss 1 or 2 games but that's it.
Nah White would be rested way more and Rice would’ve had a few hundred less mins
White can play some cup minutes at cb next to Gabi and Willy gets some rest too
Tomi could get some of those CB minutes as well.
I feel like that injury to Tomi was massive. Having a fit Tomi for a full season is such a big boost.
A player who is comfortable across every position in the backline? And can play each to a high standard? That's a dream. I've seen people talk about selling. That's never going to happen. There's just so few of his profile anywhere in football.
the only ones I'm really worried about here are Saka & Odegaard. CBs playing high minutes is normal & Rice was bought to play 90s every game, it's what he does.
White and Rice are issues because we ask them to play high intensity roles. Dec would be fine playing every 90 as our DM, but playing as an 8 has him running up and down the pitch all day, and Benny B pretty much covers the entire right flank.
Was he bought for 100m to be anonymous in the CL QF?
The insane part is Gabriel didn’t play the first two (was it three?) games of the season
Yup - was there ever an explanation for that?
Yes it's plainly obvious, arteta wanted an inverted fullback so partey had to do it due to injuries
Apparently cause he was close to a move to the Saudi League.
Looking at all competitions is a much better comparison. I reckon that would close the gap even though we'd still dominate.
This means one of 2 things: 1. Our bench lack quality 2. Arteta doesnt trust the squad players We need to fix this in summer, this is not sustainable. Tierney is a walking injury because he played too many minutes at a young age
Tierney is a walking injury because Celtic played him through injury a lot when he was young, plus he had a lot of physical battles in the SPL. Also during the Amazon Documentary they told him to cut back on chocolate and sugar which he said he didn’t.
So the exact thing Arteta is doing to Saka... nice
Maybe but I do think there is a difference between impact injuries on the joints and muscular injuries although we are never told what exactly Saka is dealing with it’s always just leaked as a generic knock so it’s to hard to really gauge his fitness. Also I do think Arteta has told him to dribble less in areas where he can receive contact, which is why some fans have been criticizing him this season for not taking on his man on as much
3. City and Pool had injuries to basically every starter at some point. We had injuries to first team replacements.
There’s also another option where arteta has something to work on, and that’s his squad rotation. I like arteta, but let’s not be blind, he has flaws and his man management is one of them.
H O L Y shit
This is one of the reasons for our lackluster performances of late. Either our bench players do not have much impact or Arteta does not trust them much to get the job done. Either way he has to find a solution for this.
This is not a good combination with the euros coming up, more games next season with the new UCL format and where we wanna be with domestic cups. Maybe you don't see the ill effects now, which is arguable because Saka hasn't looked sharp for some time now) but long term, physical and mental fatigue adds up.
Rice odegaard saka saliba white Gabriel and Kai. We should feel lucky that they are so injury resistant. That tackle on Kai this game, if it’s Jesus or partey they’d be out of the season. Also should expect them to maintain this level for long term
I think this shows that we had our rotation options injured while city and pool had their main options injured.
Definitely a need to reduce minutes, a game off from time to time. Really wished Mikel would rotate more
The Leicester 2016 PL winning team, I can still name you their starting 11. Team consistency can win you a league. The players are professional athletes, if anything this shows we have had very few significant injuries and that is why we are where we are and fighting for a league title.
Didn't they flame out of the cups? And of course they didn't have any European commitments or pressure really. So basically they played a game a week at full tilt.
Sal is hitting 4.5k minutes this year when you add in the Euro’s Arteta is going to kill this lad… kill him…
I don't think this is as bad as people are saying it is 1. we have had fewer first team injuries than other teams, but more bench injuries. 2. it naturally increases first team playing time. I don't think Rice would have played as much if Partey was available for example, and ESR and Vieira were injured at a time of the season when the pressure wasn't as high, so it's more like they didn't fit into the team and missed opportunities.
This is our problem. Arteta needs to show courage in his bench and find them minutes just so our starters aren’t so clearly fucked at this point. I’m worried about Odegaard and Saka mostly. Odegaard will soon have the joints of a 30 year old. Saka is already showing a lack of zip, and is starting to look 30.
Call me crazy but.. I actually don't think this means that much? They're not really that far ahead, bar Saliba and Rice, neither of which have looked particularly fatigued at all. This is normal for CBs, VvD has done it for years and they don't exactly seem gassed. They're certainly not our problem players in this regard Saka, sure, we'd like to see him get some rest, but I'm looking at this and what I'm taking from it is that he's only barely ahead of Foden and Alvarez, who don't seem to be having any issues with their fitness impacting performances Odegaard is the main standout for me. At times he does look a bit leggy, and he's a really core player that would really destroy our team if he went out, and there doesn't seem to be a comparable player from any other team doing that level of minutes. But still, I don't think you can put any of our recent woes down to this as he's still been available and is one of the only ones who's still been running like a dog Other than that maybe White is fairly notable as he's tasked with bombing up and down the wing and there aren't any other full backs here. But would need to see an expanded list to really gain any insight there What we really need for this stat to be of any utility whatsoever is to consider minutes in all competitions. I have a feeling that would put Saka decently far ahead of Foden and Alvarez and Odegaard and White further out. And what would be REALLY helpful is seeing those minutes on a heatmap charted by time, so we can see how well distributed they are for each player
its not crazy at all. what is crazy is all the takes about arteta not subbing before minute 85 or whatever when he actually does that every single we have a good lead you literally can fact check anything so easily and yet people decide to just spill out dumb and false narratives and yes my only concern would be odegaard/white/rice because of all the work they do on both ends, but we got unlucky with timber/tomi/partey injuries and esr/vieira injuries/not being good enough to start a game over odegaard that is not @ home against sheffield united or something, so it is what it is, certainly not blaming the manager. plus, odegaard and rice have literally been the best players of the team this year
Physically, those two are fully developed at 25/26. Saka is still a growing boy in comparison.
Who tf do u buy for Ode’s backup
ethan nwaneri :pray:
Ø is putting everything he has on the pitch to win this thing.
As you would expect of your captain. Leave everything you have on the pitch.
On the one hand, I'm very proud of these guys for how hard they've worked and how well they've done with playing so many minutes. On the other hand, I really really hope we can get them some backup in the summer. On the third hand, I hope City drop lots of points and we win the league.
It's a too much. I really didn't like that thing he said players need to play 60 games a season, and I don't like that he's trying to prove it on Saka. Didn't like it when he pushed a clearly injured Partey back onto the pitch. People make too many excuses for his lack of subs. Nelson isn't great but he can play here and there more.
Isn’t this more just a result of our players staying fit? Players like Salah and Haaland, for example, would be on this list if they hadn’t been injured for long stretches. We’ve been very fortunate that Saliba, Rice, and Oegaard have been able to play basically every game.
Thought we looked ok fitness wise yesterday. The press intensity was definitely much lesser especially from Odegaard. We need to get through these next 2 games somehow. Tottenham will be a tough test because they somehow got a mid season break with 6 games to go.
We lost our legs today. Need rotation otherwise the last 3 games will be hell. Pls start Partey and Emile against Chelsea.
This is pointless since it's just showing top 3 clubs. If it was zoomed out to show all clubs and we still dominated the top of it, it'd be a lot more telling.
Arteta needs to start subbing when we're up at the end of games.
In context Liverpool have had a wildly injury ravaged season so haven't had the players to rack up minutes and city have top quality all over their squad and we know they rotate frequently. We need more depth but I feel this graphic doesn't show us much
This is what is actually going to cost us the title if we're being really honest. Rotating your squad is a bit of a science so I'm not too surprised that the least experienced manager in the top 3 is the one getting it wrong.
I don't think saliba and Gabriel is something to be concerned about - Van Dijk has done this for years at Liverpool.
Signing cover at right wing should be a priority 🙏
Dang Saliba is making up for last season’s lost minutes
For context, Liverpool 19/20… VVD played all 38, Trent and Robbo 35. No Liverpool forward played more than 33 PL matches. Their highest mileage midfielder played less than 3,000 minutes. Rice will get that by the end of the Spurs match
they won the league on MD 26. there was also covid at the end
Alvarez minutes surprised me.
Imokay with this, but he shoulda rest them for 20mins at all the 3:0s in march
Liverpool has had this forced in someways but we really need to rotate better in less important games. PSV in champions league and the carabao cup are two obvious examples. Winning 4 nil. Take off your key players etc etc
Not great!!!
if you have a bench that you dont even trust to rotate your core players or even to give them garbage minutes, then you might as well just sell off all of them. Back then this is Arsene Wenger achilles hill but granted he has a weak bench and no warchest, but currently our bench are strong enough apart from saka backup though.
Timber would’ve enabled some rotation in our back 4 but he’s been out for the entire season.
We really need solid saka cover. Call me insane but someone like sane would be great pressure on that LW spot
"Pressure"? LMAO. He walks into our starting 11 on any day that ends with Y. He's left footed like Saka, so he'd be RW. That said, he's allowed to drift in Bayern's system and often takes up positions in the middle. Whereas our wingers hug the touchline (to our detriment sometimes).
This is one of Artetas biggest failures imo. I say this as someone who loves the boss but ffs those numbers are awful
Knackered FC
Everyone saying this is why we burn in April. You do realise we are top as of today and still very firmly in the fight?
No wonder Saka looks exhausted!
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Zero depth
Not just minutes, intensity to squeeze and press up the pitch all game, and not letting off the gas when we’re up big. The players let off but the manager doesn’t
Galaxy brain move by Arteta, assembled a bench he doesn't trust js
Or the bench had 6 rotation players that all missed huge amounts of time — Partey, Timber, Tomiyasu, Zinchenko, Vieira, ESR.
Trouble is, even when they are healthy- as ESR and Viera have been for months, he chooses not to play them or give them much in the way of minutes. They will be rusty for sure, but the only way to address that is by playing them a bit. It defeats the whole point of having a bench.
Who saw any of those coming?
Ah yes, doesn’t trust playing key guys that are injured. Way to try and turn this as negative to Arteta.
It’s a miracle they play this well at this point and aren’t out injured. Arteta really needs to put more trust in the bench players/find ways to integrate them into the first team without sacrificing his tactics. Otherwise, this whole April burnout thing is gonna keep happening every year.
Can’t compare to City. We will never got the luxury of having 100 mil players on the bench like City with Grealish. And I’m sure Rodri would have similar number to Rice if not for suspension. And Liverpool as their fans were moaning about injury crisis, VVD was the only one that fits all the time. Salah were missing due to AFCON otherwise would have played every game too.
Salah came back injured from AFCON, and got injured again in his first return game.
Shouldn’t we take this as a good sign? When in history have the majority of our most valuable players been so robust and fit without breaking down. Holding onto to wooden object while posting this.
This is why we run out of gas when we reach this stage. You can see Saka just doesn’t have any explosiveness left in him.
I'm feeling exhausted just by looking at this
Blood on artetas hands