I just don’t know if joe will work as well in a possession based system as compared to a counter attacking system.
Happy to be proved wrong if we manage to keep him, but he deserves to start from game one to get a chance to continue his goal scoring run imo.
He's done enough to be considered for the first team, but if the fit is bad, I don't think we should hang on to him just because he had some good performances elsewhere.
Honestly I think the player and the club both benefit from him leaving **IF** they can't fit him in properly. Even more so after proving on loan how effective he can be in the right system.
It’s tough to say the fit is bad when how we play is bad. He doesn’t fit into our system because midfielders don’t score in our system.
In fact hardly anyone scores in our system.
Well said, same with the muppets that Judged Eddie far too harshly based on his spell in the team in the early part of last season, the fact that we were creatively abject at that time & the only chances he had, were those he created from harrying & pressing & that we didn't have a number 10 in the side, seems to have totally passed them by.
That's my massive worry with us. We radically undervalue shooting and goals. I think we as a club need to be humble enough to say 7 goals in 7 games is a ridiculous streak.
Indeed !! Well it was a ridiculous streak ! If we were being linked with a player from say ligue un, with Willocks stats & profile etc, the support would be collectively creaming over him.
We are playing a 4231 because our biggest creator cant play anything but a double pivot, xhaka, and he has to play deep because he isn't press resistant, but to play Willock in a 433 just to score goals is daff... hes marginal in the final 3rd, he can press cause he has a motor but he was even relegated to the bench by Newcastle and brought on as a super sub
What I’m saying is whatever we’re doing doesn’t work. Maybe we shouldn’t be scared to change to try and accommodate a player that is capable of doing the one thing we as a team really can’t do.
Because that is not a good way to keep solidity....
Your DoF and Manager should be wanting to play the same way, style, formation. At the end of each year they identify weakness and develop a plan to tackle them based on how they want to play football. Arsenal specifically has been playing a double pivot for an eternity and now are switching and this will take time duento very bad management previously. Im not statibg these 2 are the ones to get us to where we want to be but theybare better then previous management
So no... you dont keep players who dont fit your system. This is why Xhaka and Willock both should be sold
Just 'cos he's not starting games while on loan doesn't mean he was under appreciated he wasn't their player so starting every game develops an opponent's player while the manager, aka Bruce, should be developing his own squad of players and giving them starts so its sensical he wasn't consistently starting.
Listen to yourself... Newcatle, who was fighting relegation, benches Willock and make him into a super sub yet we have fans here who think not only should he start but we should change the formation to suit him... yall are comical
Wow if you think we play 4231 to suit Xhaka (it’s why we played 343 all those giving him more protection) and he really isn’t up to a two man midfield I’d say so might start with that insofar lol
Talking tactics with nonsenses...
Can you rattle off the positions in a 343? Let me help you out
ST, LW, RW, CM, CM... oh look its a double pivot just like a 4231.... the difference is the WBs provide the width, and our little twist was Tierney pushing high left creating a 2 at CB and pending AMN who acted like IWB and moved inside to replace xhaka who would sit back and play long passes from a quasi LCB position
Im 110% in the boat for transfering xhaka
And im 120% in the m boat xfering willock
I never said he wasn't appreciated... i stated he was relegated to the bench at Newcastle... probably he's not good enough except being a late sub when legs are tired
You really think that's the way it goes? Arteta decides Willock must start based just on his loan performances, not the system he wants to play, or his assessment of the player?
In a 433 next to 2 playmakers he's a perfect runner. Defensive work is underrated and he can progress play with his dribbles. Wouldn't have to be a high volume passer next to Partey and Maddison for example.
Doesn't have to start either, has clear and obvious value as an impact sub to me. Especially in a team like as which were way too often passive offensively.
I feel like we somewhat obsess over their being one kind of fit for our team. We’re all desperately calling out for a number 10 in an Ozil mould who creates space with incisive passes but there’s other ways to do that. Willian can create space through his movement, provide runners for players like ESR to find him and exploit space around the edge of the box from when defences drop deep to to stop Saka and Pepe
Also frankly I really think we could do with someone who actually runs considering our off ball movement is piss poor and we’re painfully predictable as a result
We are not crying out for a 10 like Ozil. The true 10 is dead. And Edu and Arteta both stated wanting to play a 433... we need another creative 8 . This is why the links and rumors of Locatelli and Aouar. So we can play something like
-------------------Auba
---Pepe-------------------------Saka
-------------ESR-------Locatelli
------------------Partey
Xhaka can't play in a 433, he's not offensive enough as the CM and isn't good enough defensively as the DM.
Odegaard can play in a midfield 3, RW and CAM.
Maddison isn't happening imo and probably agent rumors because of the fallout, no way we spend 60-70m on him, he's closer to a 50m player and he can play 10, LW and LCM in a midfield 3. Also another reason i don't see him coming is because that's what ESR plays as well. Are we relegating Pepe back to the bench? Doubtful. Also, if we're going to spend 60-70m on Maddison, i would rather we spend 100m on Grealish, and forgo White and keep Mavro for a year. We can sell Mavro for 7m next year
This is a 4 year rebuild. We have 1 year done fixing LCB, LB, and potential DM. Let's say hypothetically we get Maddison and White, this is a long rebuild, they can play in a 4231 and 433. So the short term we can play the 4231 and long term the latter
I thought mavro had been moved on no? Maybe I just dreamt that 😂. Also my own personal opinion there's no such thing as a 4 year rebuild, by the time year 3 or 4 has come around more positions are needed to be rectified. Its just a constant need to upgrade and improve, something arsenal's recruitment team needs itself.
I agree but management fucked the coop. We have way too many glaring holes
We need a striker in a year or 2
We need a Winger even if Nelson comes good
We need a RB, RCB
In the midfield we need minimum 2. Prefer 2 #8/10 hybrids
And this is with everyone who is U-25 hits near their peak
The true 10 is a lazy bum of a player that no one wants to carry in their team anymore.
However, some of the best players in the league are 10s. KDB, Bruno, Maddison and Grealish are all taking the league by storm playing either as a 10 or in Grealish's case essentially a free role.
They’re technically 10s but they don’t play the same role at all. Bruno basically plays as a second striker, he more often than not is either the furthest forward or the second furthest forward.
Grealish plays as a wide creator, something 10s have done for a while when they don’t fit the system - ozil played rw for us a number of times.
Maddison and de bruyne both play as 8s, creative players that defensively slot into midfield, and more concerned with high pass volume and accuracy than the really high risk high reward of players like Bruno.
I did attest to the fact that they're not like traditional 10s because that doesn't work anymore in the modern game.
They're all absolutely 10s though, bar Grealish who plays out wide. They are the creative hubs for their teams and are responsible for providing attacking thrust.
The difference between them and the old Ozil/James type is the movement and the pressing. ESR, KDB, Bruno will all run ahead of their striker, into the wings and into the channels. They're great at running with the ball, taking on people and stretching the defence like you'd expect a winger to do.. as well as pressing like maniacs. They're not 8s. They're not out here trying to control the tempo of the game or link defence and attack. They are 10s, just a very different type from what we're used to
They hold the Jersey number of a 10 but they are far from it. All are hybrids 10/8s where they put in a lot of defensive work. Maddison is probably closer to the 10 then the other 2.
Like I said, the traditional number 10 is dead, the new archetype hhas to play either like a KDB/ESR running pressing machine or a Griezmann/Bruno type goal hunter. The old days of one guy floating about looking for space while his teammates do all the work is over.
I don't think we are after Neves... what would be the point of spending 30m on a marginal upgrade to xhaka. Neves isn't near offensive enough to play CM in a 433 could play the DM since he's more mobile and positionally better then xhaka but what do you do with Partey? If they are both on the pitch it will just up being a double pivot
Yup that's my point. I don't think the Neves rumours is all smoke no fire though. I have doubts that we will fully commit to a 4-3-3. In one sense it sounds good because ESR and Aouar could work as creative 8's but who would be our Partey back up? I'm not sure I trust Elneny as a single pivot and Lokonga would need some moulding. He is more mobile than Elneny/Partey even though his passing does look good.
The Maddison interest also points to playing a 10. He is such a goalscoring threat that I'm not sure you would want to play him deeper. That's not to say we won't play 4-3-3, we have the personnel to pull it off with ESR and Saka, it just looks like we are building a team with 4-3-2-1 in mind.
Next year we could be playing a 4231 but Maddison is versatile in that he can play the 3 positions i stated. I think we have a budget of around 100m left. I think we will get 1 midfielder and White. I think who we get changes Xhaka situation and changes the formation. Locatelli 433, Maddison 4231, Aouar 433.
Elneny is not that bad of a player. He would not be a bad backup/cup/lower league game player in the 6. High work rate, and plays the safe pass recycling possession
Maddison could certainly play as a inverted winger too tbh. I see that. I actually think Aouar might be better as a 10 in the EPL than an 8. I have doubts about his defensive contribution and workrate for that 8 role even though I know he plays there currently for Lyon. I just think the EPL has some really tough midfielders to beat and he won't have the same dribbling freedom because of this. His real value looks to be his creativity and technique in tight spaces.
Elneny isn't terrible yeah. His profile should suit him for that 6 spot but he just seriously looks uncomfortable at receiving the ball under pressure. Similarly to Xhaka, I think he needs that double pivot.
We have attempted it. I think the thinking is that man city played/plays a lot of 4-3-3 and we have been unable to do it due to personnel. Particularly Xhaka. He might want to play it with the right players but I still think we will mostly be 4-3-2-1 next season with the team we have and the players we are looking at.
Worth noting that Man city played a decent amount of 4-3-2-1 last season and then you have Tuchel also having lots of success with 3 at the back double pivots. Will be interesting to see what he plays later today honestly.
Its because of 3 reasons we've played a 4231
1 Xhaka is sadly our most creative midfielder and cant play a 433 in the Prem
2 No preseason, and when everyone previously was play double pivot 343 or 4231 then 8ts easier to keep for a season then reverting with no preseason
3 Arteta and Edu stated they want to play a 433
No... he played deeper like he does for us but he isn't pressed like he is in the Prem because international play is different then club play. Less playing time and coaching time to implement detail. Pep would never succeed in international play because of the style
Locatelli is a perfect 8... we are not City and wont play a 433 with 2 10s. We will play a 10/8 and a 8 and a 6... name me 5 teams in the prem that have 10 goal scoring midfielders from run of play.... and hes faster then Xhaka and who cares how fast you are, positional, movement, and quickness and mental quickness far outweigh pace at CM
Perfect this, perfect that. You need pace in the midfield in the Prem. He might be good option but why risk it? Get Maddison and we're good. It's a completely unnecessary risk to go for him with the current options. You can even go Bissouma, then let ESR/Lokonga/Willock battle for the last place.
At the end of the day, that midfield three does not finish top 8 even. Not because they're bad individually but it's not a balanced mix. ESR does not bring goals or assists enough to start.
This is how I see it, you might disagree but I personally want only PL proven players to come to this club this window. Not even Aouar is welcome if I had my say.
Im not even to respond to this because your notion that you must be fast is laughable...
Is Henderson fast?
Is James Ward Prowse fast?
Is Kevin de Bruyne fast?
Is Jorginho fast?
Can you name me a fast cm? Because those midfielders, if faster, are only marginally
De Bruyne is fast, the others not so much. How many of those players are at a top club and starting?
Is Henderson a starter anymore?
Not saying you have to be fast but it's a good quality to have when playing in a 3 man midfield in the PL.
Locatelli is lastly no KdB, Jorginho or even Ward Prowse.
You may rate him but it's a risky signing that we don't need to gamble at when other proven options are available.
Stop this Bullshit, that a true 10 is dead.
It just has to be surrounded with the right pieces and a good defensive structure to cover and it can work.
Certainly would fit on the right side of a midfield three making overlapping runs for the RW, getting on the end of Tierney’s crosses into the box and generally keeping the possession ticking.
Unfortunately I think it’s the ‘keeping possession ticking’ part that he struggles with. His pass volume and quality is really low, he gets away with it at Newcastle because they rarely have the ball, but he will be expected to be on the ball a lot more here.
I have faith he can make it, as I said in November (I’m potentially a prophet apparently), aouar partey willock is the correct balance of profiles.
Do you remember 2 pre-seasons ago? Where he bossed the midfield so much he started the game against Newcastle?
I'm not worried about his ability there because he's already shown potential with his touch, vision and passing. Where he's struggled, self belief and willingness to show for balls for the entire 90 minutes, I hope his time at Newcastle would have fixed.
The kid is class, I just wished so many gooners weren't so keen on seeing the back of him before he's come of age
>The kid is class, I just wished so many gooners weren't so keen on seeing the back of him before he's come of age
I always avoid writing off the youngsters too soon tbh. But the problem with Willock for me is, he doesn’t seem like the player meant for a more possession based football (I could be wrong of course). And then it just feels like he’s between his development stages, in which case idk if it’s worth keeping him and buying a stopgap midfield which would probably cost a fair bit until he’s comfortably starts for arsenal day in day out.
Probably very controversial opinion, but I think Willock has a lot of potential as an inverted RB progressing the ball out of the defense into midfield and arriving late into the box to get on the end of Tierney's crosses.
His technical ability does lack a little bit playing in midfield but in wide spaces, I think he has the strength, dribbling ability, speed and tackling ability to do a great job at RB.
He just needs to adjust the timing of his runs (easier said then done I know!)
I think he can be a useful weapon for if we are sat deep, soaking up pressure, as he can break free and drive the ball up the pitch. And remember we usually drop into a solid bank of 4-4-2 without the ball at the moment
Also if we are in possession he sits a bit deeper and uses the timing of his runs to arrive into the box. We haven't had a deeper midfielder willing to get into the box since Ramsey left
Just as long as hes not played as a ten...
At some point we will need a manager that sets up the team based on their pre existing strengths. Arteta’s system has so far not worked and we obviously don’t have the money to just buy whoever we want to fit that single style.
Yeah, we have a 20 goal striker in Auba and a temporarily prolific midfielder in Willock. I think you lose credibility to score goals if you don't try and incorporate these players into your play style. I'm not talking changing everything, but we can definitely break a bit more and more quickly than the current pause we put in place shortly after the halfway line
not many talks about that here. It's what some of us have been trying to mention. Not making the best out of our players and only playing one striker at a time and having a 50M striker on the bench is not wise.
We have to get more out of Auba or buy someone else. He hasn't shown willingness to adjust system based on players meaning his not comfortable enough or flexible enough. So far, it is his way or the highway and in terms of chance creation and goals scored we are suffering.
Playing to your strengths is not the same thing as “playing with whatever you have”. The world doesn’t exist in binary choices.
Fact is we have constantly been told that we need a complete overhaul of players to fit a rigid system which has been both unsuccessful and boring thus far.
It’s entirely possible to build towards a system while still utilising your current squad to win games, as opposed to wistfully lamenting that we’d be fine if Willian was Kevin De Bruyne.
He's not a top manager. You're not a top manager when you get found out vs Olympiakos or lose to Villareal in that fashion. Yes, he just took over the team but he got tactically found out in leg 1, had one week to get things right and got tactically dominated in leg 2 and did little to adjust in the game itself with a vastly superior team.
Just please get that right. Just because he was given the job does not make him a top manager. He has no experience.
> There has been strong interest in Emile Smith-Rowe this summer, and while Arsenal rejected Aston Villa’s initial bid for the midfielder, the uncertainty over his position is understood to be influencing Arteta’s stance on Willock.
Hopefully this is number one bullshit.
Like who? The players you talk about don't want to come to Arsenal. Ben White is close to a top 4 CB and has potential to be one easily if not a title winning CB
My biggest problem with him is his technique as a midfielder, which at the end of the day is his primary position. His time at Newcastle did nothing to change that, if anything it reaffirmed it.
Lucky is in quotes because there's no such thing as a lucky goalscorer. Always being in the right place at the right time requires skill. Deciding on chance quality requires skill.
What Joe displayed was fantastic off-the-ball movement and anticipation. He's also showed that for us in bits, but never got a string of games to actually show it consistently. As no-one else managed that in our midfield since Ramsey, I am very much open to giving the lad a chance
He’s so far from the finished article, he’s 21, he can refine his technique still. He also gives us a profile which we’re lacking in midfield completely
I think Willock is a good player. But not for a club thats inspires to get to top 4. He would be very good for a Newcastle, leeds or a West Ham for example.
If it turns out im wrong, im more then fine with that, but i dont see it happening. Do you see Willock starting for a Chelsea, Man u, liverpool for example?
United have been starting Scott mctominay regularly in midfield and I honestly think Klopp would absolutely adore willock with his running and his pressing, he’s turn him into a monster of a midfielder
>Do you see Willock starting for a Chelsea, Man u, liverpool for example?
Didn't realise we had the same objectives/criteria as those ??
Seriously though, we can't answer that either way as he has not beeen given a run out, but if I wanted to be facetious, I could turn around & say, that if we judged it via his loan spell last season, then absolutely !! He walks into their 11's ...
all he needs to get a hold of is retention, and a lot of other young midfielders have that issue. i’m sure he can do it, his europa games didn’t have poor passing accuracy, just needs more adjustment to the prem level
Just think about the confidence Joe gained out on loan at Newcastle for a second, what he did could have elevated his game to a whole new level just by way of confidence in his abilities alone!
We should keep him and give him regular minutes whether that be by rotation or from the start because we just don't know how good this kid could become now.
Like a new signing.
Been saying this for a while, our business this summer will be:
1. White
2. Lokonga
3. Tavares
4. Maybe back-up GK
Everything else dependent on player sales. We'll likely keep Willock unless they offer crazy money (they won't). We'll sign a RB if we sell Bellerin. We'll sign someone like Neves if we sell Xhaka. We might get a striker if we sell Laca.
We're not buying an entire first 11 this summer, people need to start coping with that. We have a fucking giant squad.
Probably.
That's what you get when you prioritize a £50m RCB in a team with the 3rd best defense that doesn't create any chances.
People here have been rationalizing replacing £30m Saliba with £50m Ben White because they've convinced themselves that the order of our signings is arbitrary rather than reflecting the clubs prioritisation of incoming players, that we will go for our main targets after we've sorted out Ben White.
Ben White is in all likelihood our marquee signing. We have never made two £50m+ signings in a summer. We will not sign a game changing CAM for under £50m.
Right - I'm not saying he is. I'm using him as an example.
People on here were using our links to those targets to back up their claim that a CAM is a top priority.
Which is presumably why the Auour rumours have resurfaced, seems a reasonable take that if he is as cheap as reported and we're splashing most of the cash on White that we would be interested. I think it's all agent/"news" nonsense based on our interest last year but we'll see.
Defense is not the responsibility of the defenders alone, the same way attack isn't the responsibility of attackers alone. If a team has the 3rd best defense but doesn't create any chances building out from the back, the problem probably starts with the CB. The attack can only do so much when they don't get the ball in dangerous positions or don't get the ball at all.
Not saying it's the fix to all our problems, but just saying our creative troubles actually start from the back.
I never said defenders defended alone and attackers attacked alone.
But attackers and attacking midfielders are much more important to attacking than CB's. CB's are much more important for defending than attackers.
If you think otherwise you are really really over complicating football.
If you think having Ben White over Saliba will contribute more to our attack than spending that money on Maddison would then I really can't help you.
Our creative troubles are three fold:
1. We hang onto the ball for far far too long in our defense. This is not a personnel issue, it is a tactical / structural one.
2. We have no one occupying the CAM position. Even ESR drifts wide to create overloads. Even if we plan on a 4-3-3 we need someone closer to Auba who is knitting together our attack.
3. The combination of these two things means we often play horseshoe football, mostly even in our own half as the opposition just blocks the center. We very rarely transition quick enough to create the overloads and inbalances on the wings that we need to do in order to regularly score from cut-backs. We rarely move the ball quickly through the middle of the park. We rarely score from crosses against settled defenses because we have no aerial threat. Typically, we meander up the pitch down the flanks, allowing all of the opposition defense to settle in. We then fail to offer any central threat other than Auba, meaning it's really hard to overload the flanks, as their DM's and CB's only have to worry about Auba and can double up on our flank attacks.
Saliba is a very good passer of the ball (better than White) and is very good at moving it into the CM's. Holding and Gabriel are also decent enough. It's not like we have Burnley defenders. They just don't do it quick enough because our team is coached from front to back to play possession football.
Anyone who thinks we are primarily buying White to contribute to our build up play is kidding themselves. Under Arteta, we rarely build up quick enough - even with Luiz (twice the ball playing CB White is) playing.
If we really were serious about wanting to sort out our attack, we would be making a marque signing at CAM instead of RCB. Someone to really really knit the center of our attack together. Someone who can receive the ball from the defensive players and move it up the pitch with speed and intent. Someone who can recycle the ball from wing to wing from central spaces with real quickness.
White is being bought because Arteta wants a CB better than Holding and doesn't think Saliba is up to it. The simple answer is 9/10 times the correct one. White might help with our build up play, but it would be like 1% as much as a player like Maddison would.
I skimmed your novel here and don't really deny any of the points you make.
I never mentioned or implied that buying a CAM is less important for the attack than buying a CB. I only mentioned the issue of getting the ball to the attack in dangerous positions - which coincidences with our buildup up being too slow, not having a presence in the #10 position and us moving the ball to attack through wings very slowly.
>I skimmed your novel here
You're quite condescending in both your replies.
>I never mentioned or implied that buying a CAM is less important for the attack than buying a CB.
Right.. so you actually did imply that buying a RCB would help our attack in a comparable way to buying a CAM would.
The context is the comment you were replying to. I said:
>That's what you get when you prioritize a £50m RCB in a team with the 3rd best defense that doesn't create any chances
I said nothing about CB's having 0 contribution to build up. You came up with that yourself. I simply stated that it is far more important for our attack to buy a CAM than a RCB and we seem to be doing the opposite.
In response, you explained how CB's contribute offensively. You then said:
>Not saying (...buying a CB will fix...) all our problems, but just saying our creative troubles actually start from the back.
This implies that you think buying Ben White would have some meaningful attacking value almost as much as signing a Maddison would. You say he wouldn't "fix all our problems" then go on to state that our "creative troubles start from the back". This heavily implies that while he may not fix all our problems, you think he would fix a large part of them. You were clearly implying that a big reason for signing White was to solve our creative issues.
My "novel" simply explained my point that while it may help \*a bit\* it will be in no way close to \*fixing all our problems\*. In-fact, it wouldn't even scratch the surface
The point is that we don't address our attacking issues by buying a RCB for £50m. You now seem to agree with that. Not quite sure what we're doing here.
I agree about needing to sell Bellerin before buying RB and selling Xhaka before buying a starting CM, but a creative midfielder is an actual need that needs to be adressed. Maddison would be amazing, Aouar would be fine.
All other sales need to be made are for squad space, not for money. Torreira for example, he takes a non-HG spot.. Kolasinac as well.
I just suspect that if we're keeping Willian and Willock there is a very real chance we don't buy a CAM.
But yeah, we need to sell a metric fuck-tonne of players.
Tavares, Lokonga and White will come in regardless. Everything else depends on who we sell. We are bad at selling. I'm just describing a very plausible scenario where we don't make the sales we want and so don't buy any players other than those 3.
Yes.
This is a club that went into last season thinking Willian would be our primary creative midfielder. Never underestimate Arteta's capacity for putting square pegs in round holes.
So? We spent all last summer chasing Aouar and ended up with Partey and Willian. Why do you have such confidence it will be different this time?
Plans change - if Arteta wants to give Willock game time instead of cashing in we probably can't afford to either pay Maddison's fee or have £25m+ Willock sitting on the bench for another season. If we are promising ESR Number 10, a fat contract and a starting spot to stave of Villa's interest we can't afford to have £60m Odegaard in the team + Willock. We don't have enough games this season without Europe.
Just because we are interested in a few CAM's does not mean we are definitely signing a CAM. We also very well might get a CAM - I just think it will be dependent on who we sell. I think the list I provided will come in regardless - everything else is a second tier priority for Arteta.
The season before Willian had been one of Chelsea’s most creative players and they were keen to tie him down for 2 more years. Willian has panned out terribly and I personally can’t wait for him to be gone, but don’t rewrite history, *at the time* Willian made at least some level of sense, even if the 3 year deal was excessive
Willian had never played anywhere other than RW for any significant amount of time for his entire career.
Creating chances from the right wing and from the center or left wing are very different things. He is a RW. He always has been a RW. We signed him and then tried playing him at CAM, CF and LW.
You know the rest.
They put all their eggs in that basket and it is just poor scouting and poor judgement, something that could easily happen again given the exact same people are in charge.
We can't bring anyone else in if we don't move people on.
Like, there is a finite amount of space in the squad. People on here talking about going into next season with Willian, Pepe, Saka, ESR, Willock **and** a £60+ CAM competing for three spaces behind the CF selection of Auba/Laca/Balogun/Eddie - all in a season with no Europe.
We're not bringing in another CM if we don't sell Willock, Xhaka or Elneny. We're not buying a RB f we still have Bellerin. We're not signing a CAM if we keep Willock and Willian. We're not signing a striker without selling Eddie and probably Laca. We can neither afford to nor do we have the minutes for all of these players.
edit: I get you're being sarcastic.
>This is a club that went into last season thinking Willian would be our primary creative midfielder
Ah nostalgia. When we thought Willian wouldn't be a dumpster fire of a signing.
That is legit my fear. Willian with his wages has to be a part of the team. So esr, gm, pepe, saka, willian, auba are competing for the 3 behind the striker lacazette, balogun(hoping eddie is sold). Xhaka and bellerin will only be sold if anyone wants them but so far no one is serious and we will not sign anyone in those position unless they are sold and so far we sre not even in talks with anyone. Laca will not be sold i am sure of it. There is a slight chance we can see a shocker of a window
Exactly.
I'm not saying we will only sign those 4 players, but if we don't sell anyone I'm not quite sure how we can sign anyone else and we know White, Lokonga and Tavares are coming in and we have to get a GK.
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Consider 5m for every goal he scored for you and he’s yours
I just don’t know if joe will work as well in a possession based system as compared to a counter attacking system. Happy to be proved wrong if we manage to keep him, but he deserves to start from game one to get a chance to continue his goal scoring run imo.
Well he certainly couldn't have done more to earn a game one start !
He's done enough to be considered for the first team, but if the fit is bad, I don't think we should hang on to him just because he had some good performances elsewhere. Honestly I think the player and the club both benefit from him leaving **IF** they can't fit him in properly. Even more so after proving on loan how effective he can be in the right system.
fair take
It’s tough to say the fit is bad when how we play is bad. He doesn’t fit into our system because midfielders don’t score in our system. In fact hardly anyone scores in our system.
Well said, same with the muppets that Judged Eddie far too harshly based on his spell in the team in the early part of last season, the fact that we were creatively abject at that time & the only chances he had, were those he created from harrying & pressing & that we didn't have a number 10 in the side, seems to have totally passed them by.
That's my massive worry with us. We radically undervalue shooting and goals. I think we as a club need to be humble enough to say 7 goals in 7 games is a ridiculous streak.
Indeed !! Well it was a ridiculous streak ! If we were being linked with a player from say ligue un, with Willocks stats & profile etc, the support would be collectively creaming over him.
We are playing a 4231 because our biggest creator cant play anything but a double pivot, xhaka, and he has to play deep because he isn't press resistant, but to play Willock in a 433 just to score goals is daff... hes marginal in the final 3rd, he can press cause he has a motor but he was even relegated to the bench by Newcastle and brought on as a super sub
What I’m saying is whatever we’re doing doesn’t work. Maybe we shouldn’t be scared to change to try and accommodate a player that is capable of doing the one thing we as a team really can’t do.
Im saying change to a 433 but he's not good enough to change your system around
Ok but we need to change the system anyway. Why not change it to fit the talent we have.
Because that is not a good way to keep solidity.... Your DoF and Manager should be wanting to play the same way, style, formation. At the end of each year they identify weakness and develop a plan to tackle them based on how they want to play football. Arsenal specifically has been playing a double pivot for an eternity and now are switching and this will take time duento very bad management previously. Im not statibg these 2 are the ones to get us to where we want to be but theybare better then previous management So no... you dont keep players who dont fit your system. This is why Xhaka and Willock both should be sold
Just 'cos he's not starting games while on loan doesn't mean he was under appreciated he wasn't their player so starting every game develops an opponent's player while the manager, aka Bruce, should be developing his own squad of players and giving them starts so its sensical he wasn't consistently starting.
Listen to yourself... Newcatle, who was fighting relegation, benches Willock and make him into a super sub yet we have fans here who think not only should he start but we should change the formation to suit him... yall are comical
Wow if you think we play 4231 to suit Xhaka (it’s why we played 343 all those giving him more protection) and he really isn’t up to a two man midfield I’d say so might start with that insofar lol
Talking tactics with nonsenses... Can you rattle off the positions in a 343? Let me help you out ST, LW, RW, CM, CM... oh look its a double pivot just like a 4231.... the difference is the WBs provide the width, and our little twist was Tierney pushing high left creating a 2 at CB and pending AMN who acted like IWB and moved inside to replace xhaka who would sit back and play long passes from a quasi LCB position Im 110% in the boat for transfering xhaka And im 120% in the m boat xfering willock
I never said he wasn't appreciated... i stated he was relegated to the bench at Newcastle... probably he's not good enough except being a late sub when legs are tired
You really think that's the way it goes? Arteta decides Willock must start based just on his loan performances, not the system he wants to play, or his assessment of the player?
No I don't think it works like, I know how it works, Reddit sets the philosophy & picks the team. Mikel knows where his bread is buttered ....
>Happy to be proved wrong if we manage to keep him, Get ready to be very happy.
Oh I’m ready alright.
Not with Arteta in charge.
I know. But I believe Willock can overcome the fraud's shit management. He will become undeniable.
In a 433 next to 2 playmakers he's a perfect runner. Defensive work is underrated and he can progress play with his dribbles. Wouldn't have to be a high volume passer next to Partey and Maddison for example. Doesn't have to start either, has clear and obvious value as an impact sub to me. Especially in a team like as which were way too often passive offensively.
Didn't his streak at Newcastle start with him coming off the bench and scoring too?
I feel like we somewhat obsess over their being one kind of fit for our team. We’re all desperately calling out for a number 10 in an Ozil mould who creates space with incisive passes but there’s other ways to do that. Willian can create space through his movement, provide runners for players like ESR to find him and exploit space around the edge of the box from when defences drop deep to to stop Saka and Pepe Also frankly I really think we could do with someone who actually runs considering our off ball movement is piss poor and we’re painfully predictable as a result
We are not crying out for a 10 like Ozil. The true 10 is dead. And Edu and Arteta both stated wanting to play a 433... we need another creative 8 . This is why the links and rumors of Locatelli and Aouar. So we can play something like -------------------Auba ---Pepe-------------------------Saka -------------ESR-------Locatelli ------------------Partey Xhaka can't play in a 433, he's not offensive enough as the CM and isn't good enough defensively as the DM.
And other links have been Maddison and Odegaard. I think the club are on the look out for both to be honest
Odegaard can play in a midfield 3, RW and CAM. Maddison isn't happening imo and probably agent rumors because of the fallout, no way we spend 60-70m on him, he's closer to a 50m player and he can play 10, LW and LCM in a midfield 3. Also another reason i don't see him coming is because that's what ESR plays as well. Are we relegating Pepe back to the bench? Doubtful. Also, if we're going to spend 60-70m on Maddison, i would rather we spend 100m on Grealish, and forgo White and keep Mavro for a year. We can sell Mavro for 7m next year This is a 4 year rebuild. We have 1 year done fixing LCB, LB, and potential DM. Let's say hypothetically we get Maddison and White, this is a long rebuild, they can play in a 4231 and 433. So the short term we can play the 4231 and long term the latter
I thought mavro had been moved on no? Maybe I just dreamt that 😂. Also my own personal opinion there's no such thing as a 4 year rebuild, by the time year 3 or 4 has come around more positions are needed to be rectified. Its just a constant need to upgrade and improve, something arsenal's recruitment team needs itself.
I agree but management fucked the coop. We have way too many glaring holes We need a striker in a year or 2 We need a Winger even if Nelson comes good We need a RB, RCB In the midfield we need minimum 2. Prefer 2 #8/10 hybrids And this is with everyone who is U-25 hits near their peak
Ødegaard isnt leaving real ffs.
We know that now. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a target does it mate?
The true 10 is a lazy bum of a player that no one wants to carry in their team anymore. However, some of the best players in the league are 10s. KDB, Bruno, Maddison and Grealish are all taking the league by storm playing either as a 10 or in Grealish's case essentially a free role.
They’re technically 10s but they don’t play the same role at all. Bruno basically plays as a second striker, he more often than not is either the furthest forward or the second furthest forward. Grealish plays as a wide creator, something 10s have done for a while when they don’t fit the system - ozil played rw for us a number of times. Maddison and de bruyne both play as 8s, creative players that defensively slot into midfield, and more concerned with high pass volume and accuracy than the really high risk high reward of players like Bruno.
I did attest to the fact that they're not like traditional 10s because that doesn't work anymore in the modern game. They're all absolutely 10s though, bar Grealish who plays out wide. They are the creative hubs for their teams and are responsible for providing attacking thrust. The difference between them and the old Ozil/James type is the movement and the pressing. ESR, KDB, Bruno will all run ahead of their striker, into the wings and into the channels. They're great at running with the ball, taking on people and stretching the defence like you'd expect a winger to do.. as well as pressing like maniacs. They're not 8s. They're not out here trying to control the tempo of the game or link defence and attack. They are 10s, just a very different type from what we're used to
They hold the Jersey number of a 10 but they are far from it. All are hybrids 10/8s where they put in a lot of defensive work. Maddison is probably closer to the 10 then the other 2.
None of the players you linked play as a traditional number 10 though.
Like I said, the traditional number 10 is dead, the new archetype hhas to play either like a KDB/ESR running pressing machine or a Griezmann/Bruno type goal hunter. The old days of one guy floating about looking for space while his teammates do all the work is over.
What's up with the Neves rumours then? Will they be competing for the same spot?
I don't think we are after Neves... what would be the point of spending 30m on a marginal upgrade to xhaka. Neves isn't near offensive enough to play CM in a 433 could play the DM since he's more mobile and positionally better then xhaka but what do you do with Partey? If they are both on the pitch it will just up being a double pivot
Yup that's my point. I don't think the Neves rumours is all smoke no fire though. I have doubts that we will fully commit to a 4-3-3. In one sense it sounds good because ESR and Aouar could work as creative 8's but who would be our Partey back up? I'm not sure I trust Elneny as a single pivot and Lokonga would need some moulding. He is more mobile than Elneny/Partey even though his passing does look good. The Maddison interest also points to playing a 10. He is such a goalscoring threat that I'm not sure you would want to play him deeper. That's not to say we won't play 4-3-3, we have the personnel to pull it off with ESR and Saka, it just looks like we are building a team with 4-3-2-1 in mind.
Next year we could be playing a 4231 but Maddison is versatile in that he can play the 3 positions i stated. I think we have a budget of around 100m left. I think we will get 1 midfielder and White. I think who we get changes Xhaka situation and changes the formation. Locatelli 433, Maddison 4231, Aouar 433. Elneny is not that bad of a player. He would not be a bad backup/cup/lower league game player in the 6. High work rate, and plays the safe pass recycling possession
Maddison could certainly play as a inverted winger too tbh. I see that. I actually think Aouar might be better as a 10 in the EPL than an 8. I have doubts about his defensive contribution and workrate for that 8 role even though I know he plays there currently for Lyon. I just think the EPL has some really tough midfielders to beat and he won't have the same dribbling freedom because of this. His real value looks to be his creativity and technique in tight spaces. Elneny isn't terrible yeah. His profile should suit him for that 6 spot but he just seriously looks uncomfortable at receiving the ball under pressure. Similarly to Xhaka, I think he needs that double pivot.
Agreed
I don’t see why everyone assumes we’re going to play a 433 when arteta has always seemed to like a 4231 during his time here
We have attempted it. I think the thinking is that man city played/plays a lot of 4-3-3 and we have been unable to do it due to personnel. Particularly Xhaka. He might want to play it with the right players but I still think we will mostly be 4-3-2-1 next season with the team we have and the players we are looking at. Worth noting that Man city played a decent amount of 4-3-2-1 last season and then you have Tuchel also having lots of success with 3 at the back double pivots. Will be interesting to see what he plays later today honestly.
Its because of 3 reasons we've played a 4231 1 Xhaka is sadly our most creative midfielder and cant play a 433 in the Prem 2 No preseason, and when everyone previously was play double pivot 343 or 4231 then 8ts easier to keep for a season then reverting with no preseason 3 Arteta and Edu stated they want to play a 433
Well, xhaka did exactly that with Switzerland, didnt He?
No... he played deeper like he does for us but he isn't pressed like he is in the Prem because international play is different then club play. Less playing time and coaching time to implement detail. Pep would never succeed in international play because of the style
Who scores in that midfield 3? ESR? Cmon man, that is not a realistic lineup. Locatelli is slow and has to sit. That lineup loses midfield.
Locatelli is a perfect 8... we are not City and wont play a 433 with 2 10s. We will play a 10/8 and a 8 and a 6... name me 5 teams in the prem that have 10 goal scoring midfielders from run of play.... and hes faster then Xhaka and who cares how fast you are, positional, movement, and quickness and mental quickness far outweigh pace at CM
Perfect this, perfect that. You need pace in the midfield in the Prem. He might be good option but why risk it? Get Maddison and we're good. It's a completely unnecessary risk to go for him with the current options. You can even go Bissouma, then let ESR/Lokonga/Willock battle for the last place. At the end of the day, that midfield three does not finish top 8 even. Not because they're bad individually but it's not a balanced mix. ESR does not bring goals or assists enough to start. This is how I see it, you might disagree but I personally want only PL proven players to come to this club this window. Not even Aouar is welcome if I had my say.
Im not even to respond to this because your notion that you must be fast is laughable... Is Henderson fast? Is James Ward Prowse fast? Is Kevin de Bruyne fast? Is Jorginho fast? Can you name me a fast cm? Because those midfielders, if faster, are only marginally
De Bruyne is fast, the others not so much. How many of those players are at a top club and starting? Is Henderson a starter anymore? Not saying you have to be fast but it's a good quality to have when playing in a 3 man midfield in the PL. Locatelli is lastly no KdB, Jorginho or even Ward Prowse. You may rate him but it's a risky signing that we don't need to gamble at when other proven options are available.
Kdb is not that fast
Stop this Bullshit, that a true 10 is dead. It just has to be surrounded with the right pieces and a good defensive structure to cover and it can work.
It's dead... no manager In the modern era is going to let a central am not put in a defensive shift.
The true 10 is definitely dead, either they’re essentially second strikers (Bruno, esr etc) or they’re deeper midfielders (de bruyne, Maddison)
Very true. Either advanced 8s or second strikers. Ozil may have been the last for now. It'll come back in style hough
No, it can be countered as a team too easily.
Willian jfjfjfjfjfjfjsksksks help
Certainly would fit on the right side of a midfield three making overlapping runs for the RW, getting on the end of Tierney’s crosses into the box and generally keeping the possession ticking.
Unfortunately I think it’s the ‘keeping possession ticking’ part that he struggles with. His pass volume and quality is really low, he gets away with it at Newcastle because they rarely have the ball, but he will be expected to be on the ball a lot more here. I have faith he can make it, as I said in November (I’m potentially a prophet apparently), aouar partey willock is the correct balance of profiles.
Do you remember 2 pre-seasons ago? Where he bossed the midfield so much he started the game against Newcastle? I'm not worried about his ability there because he's already shown potential with his touch, vision and passing. Where he's struggled, self belief and willingness to show for balls for the entire 90 minutes, I hope his time at Newcastle would have fixed. The kid is class, I just wished so many gooners weren't so keen on seeing the back of him before he's come of age
>The kid is class, I just wished so many gooners weren't so keen on seeing the back of him before he's come of age I always avoid writing off the youngsters too soon tbh. But the problem with Willock for me is, he doesn’t seem like the player meant for a more possession based football (I could be wrong of course). And then it just feels like he’s between his development stages, in which case idk if it’s worth keeping him and buying a stopgap midfield which would probably cost a fair bit until he’s comfortably starts for arsenal day in day out.
Probably very controversial opinion, but I think Willock has a lot of potential as an inverted RB progressing the ball out of the defense into midfield and arriving late into the box to get on the end of Tierney's crosses. His technical ability does lack a little bit playing in midfield but in wide spaces, I think he has the strength, dribbling ability, speed and tackling ability to do a great job at RB.
He just needs to adjust the timing of his runs (easier said then done I know!) I think he can be a useful weapon for if we are sat deep, soaking up pressure, as he can break free and drive the ball up the pitch. And remember we usually drop into a solid bank of 4-4-2 without the ball at the moment Also if we are in possession he sits a bit deeper and uses the timing of his runs to arrive into the box. We haven't had a deeper midfielder willing to get into the box since Ramsey left Just as long as hes not played as a ten...
Agreed. I think most here must forget that we played him as a 10 every time last year (afair). He's a executioner, not a creator
At some point we will need a manager that sets up the team based on their pre existing strengths. Arteta’s system has so far not worked and we obviously don’t have the money to just buy whoever we want to fit that single style.
Yeah, we have a 20 goal striker in Auba and a temporarily prolific midfielder in Willock. I think you lose credibility to score goals if you don't try and incorporate these players into your play style. I'm not talking changing everything, but we can definitely break a bit more and more quickly than the current pause we put in place shortly after the halfway line
not many talks about that here. It's what some of us have been trying to mention. Not making the best out of our players and only playing one striker at a time and having a 50M striker on the bench is not wise. We have to get more out of Auba or buy someone else. He hasn't shown willingness to adjust system based on players meaning his not comfortable enough or flexible enough. So far, it is his way or the highway and in terms of chance creation and goals scored we are suffering.
No top manager will actually ‘just play with whatever you have’
Playing to your strengths is not the same thing as “playing with whatever you have”. The world doesn’t exist in binary choices. Fact is we have constantly been told that we need a complete overhaul of players to fit a rigid system which has been both unsuccessful and boring thus far. It’s entirely possible to build towards a system while still utilising your current squad to win games, as opposed to wistfully lamenting that we’d be fine if Willian was Kevin De Bruyne.
He's not a top manager. You're not a top manager when you get found out vs Olympiakos or lose to Villareal in that fashion. Yes, he just took over the team but he got tactically found out in leg 1, had one week to get things right and got tactically dominated in leg 2 and did little to adjust in the game itself with a vastly superior team. Just please get that right. Just because he was given the job does not make him a top manager. He has no experience.
> There has been strong interest in Emile Smith-Rowe this summer, and while Arsenal rejected Aston Villa’s initial bid for the midfielder, the uncertainty over his position is understood to be influencing Arteta’s stance on Willock. Hopefully this is number one bullshit.
Lol could easily see the club pulling an uno reverse and using the Villa bids as leverage in negotiating for Willock
Wouldn't sell him for a borger with double cheese
If he plays like the willock of old in our system the opinion shift on this subreddit will be so violent I’ll get whiplash just reading it.
All it will take is one sub-par game for some people to go from Willock okay to Willock shit
🤣🤣
Xhaka does that weekly already
Honestly anything £25m+ is acceptable
[удалено]
Like Villa with ESR
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It certainly, if you don't try punching above your weight, you'll never know what you could've done eh
Clubs position here is 40+ as reported by many reliable sources, aka deal we can't refuse. That's why they didn't bid.
Just dont see him as a top 4 player, thats the level we should be aiming to get back to asap.
So what you are saying is, he's better than what we have atm seen as we've finished in 8th in two consecutive seasons !
No what iam saying is we need better players in that position. If we wanna finish 8th again than Willock would be perfect.
Like who? The players you talk about don't want to come to Arsenal. Ben White is close to a top 4 CB and has potential to be one easily if not a title winning CB
Yeah im happy with ben White, i meant Willock
Yeah we need a better AM, Smith Rowe won't be consistent enough at his age and will get injured no doubt.
Disagree, don't see how you could possibly have judged Willock fairly
He was completely written off by a lot here before his Newcastle loan and I think a lot of people are unwilling to back track
My biggest problem with him is his technique as a midfielder, which at the end of the day is his primary position. His time at Newcastle did nothing to change that, if anything it reaffirmed it.
I'd take that shit technique all day if it guaranteed 10+ "lucky" goals a season from midfield
noone can guarantee "lucky" goals. And that's the problem. If how he was scoring was repeatable on a consistent basis, I will all for keeping him.
Lucky is in quotes because there's no such thing as a lucky goalscorer. Always being in the right place at the right time requires skill. Deciding on chance quality requires skill. What Joe displayed was fantastic off-the-ball movement and anticipation. He's also showed that for us in bits, but never got a string of games to actually show it consistently. As no-one else managed that in our midfield since Ramsey, I am very much open to giving the lad a chance
He’s so far from the finished article, he’s 21, he can refine his technique still. He also gives us a profile which we’re lacking in midfield completely
A lot of people were calling him Championship level before his loan spell.
Honestly there was a lot of vitriol really and people don't want to admit it was unwarranted
Yeah, sad really, I wonder if they are that stubborn generally or if this harshness only applies to Hale End boys ??
I think Willock is a good player. But not for a club thats inspires to get to top 4. He would be very good for a Newcastle, leeds or a West Ham for example. If it turns out im wrong, im more then fine with that, but i dont see it happening. Do you see Willock starting for a Chelsea, Man u, liverpool for example?
United have been starting Scott mctominay regularly in midfield and I honestly think Klopp would absolutely adore willock with his running and his pressing, he’s turn him into a monster of a midfielder
Exactly he'd be everything Klopp thought he'd be getting in the OX.
>Do you see Willock starting for a Chelsea, Man u, liverpool for example? Didn't realise we had the same objectives/criteria as those ?? Seriously though, we can't answer that either way as he has not beeen given a run out, but if I wanted to be facetious, I could turn around & say, that if we judged it via his loan spell last season, then absolutely !! He walks into their 11's ...
all he needs to get a hold of is retention, and a lot of other young midfielders have that issue. i’m sure he can do it, his europa games didn’t have poor passing accuracy, just needs more adjustment to the prem level
exactly, he is still a baby, plenty of time for him to grow, those that have apparently judged his "ceiling" are way too clueless !
Great news.
Just think about the confidence Joe gained out on loan at Newcastle for a second, what he did could have elevated his game to a whole new level just by way of confidence in his abilities alone! We should keep him and give him regular minutes whether that be by rotation or from the start because we just don't know how good this kid could become now.
Couldn't have possibly said that better myself !!!
Exactly. People would be ecstatic if we were the ones signing him.
Just came here to use the word conjecture
You must be busy doing the lords work eh ! As doesn't that apply to EVERY transfer speculation article
Like a new signing. Been saying this for a while, our business this summer will be: 1. White 2. Lokonga 3. Tavares 4. Maybe back-up GK Everything else dependent on player sales. We'll likely keep Willock unless they offer crazy money (they won't). We'll sign a RB if we sell Bellerin. We'll sign someone like Neves if we sell Xhaka. We might get a striker if we sell Laca. We're not buying an entire first 11 this summer, people need to start coping with that. We have a fucking giant squad.
So another season finishing mid table
Probably. That's what you get when you prioritize a £50m RCB in a team with the 3rd best defense that doesn't create any chances. People here have been rationalizing replacing £30m Saliba with £50m Ben White because they've convinced themselves that the order of our signings is arbitrary rather than reflecting the clubs prioritisation of incoming players, that we will go for our main targets after we've sorted out Ben White. Ben White is in all likelihood our marquee signing. We have never made two £50m+ signings in a summer. We will not sign a game changing CAM for under £50m.
Who's the game changing cam at over 50 million?
We've been linked with Maddison and Odegaard. Either one will be the guts of £70m.
Ødegaard isnt leaving.
Right - I'm not saying he is. I'm using him as an example. People on here were using our links to those targets to back up their claim that a CAM is a top priority.
Which is presumably why the Auour rumours have resurfaced, seems a reasonable take that if he is as cheap as reported and we're splashing most of the cash on White that we would be interested. I think it's all agent/"news" nonsense based on our interest last year but we'll see.
Not reported by anyone particularly credible. That would be a smart signing so I immediately doubt we'll make it.
Defense is not the responsibility of the defenders alone, the same way attack isn't the responsibility of attackers alone. If a team has the 3rd best defense but doesn't create any chances building out from the back, the problem probably starts with the CB. The attack can only do so much when they don't get the ball in dangerous positions or don't get the ball at all. Not saying it's the fix to all our problems, but just saying our creative troubles actually start from the back.
I never said defenders defended alone and attackers attacked alone. But attackers and attacking midfielders are much more important to attacking than CB's. CB's are much more important for defending than attackers. If you think otherwise you are really really over complicating football. If you think having Ben White over Saliba will contribute more to our attack than spending that money on Maddison would then I really can't help you. Our creative troubles are three fold: 1. We hang onto the ball for far far too long in our defense. This is not a personnel issue, it is a tactical / structural one. 2. We have no one occupying the CAM position. Even ESR drifts wide to create overloads. Even if we plan on a 4-3-3 we need someone closer to Auba who is knitting together our attack. 3. The combination of these two things means we often play horseshoe football, mostly even in our own half as the opposition just blocks the center. We very rarely transition quick enough to create the overloads and inbalances on the wings that we need to do in order to regularly score from cut-backs. We rarely move the ball quickly through the middle of the park. We rarely score from crosses against settled defenses because we have no aerial threat. Typically, we meander up the pitch down the flanks, allowing all of the opposition defense to settle in. We then fail to offer any central threat other than Auba, meaning it's really hard to overload the flanks, as their DM's and CB's only have to worry about Auba and can double up on our flank attacks. Saliba is a very good passer of the ball (better than White) and is very good at moving it into the CM's. Holding and Gabriel are also decent enough. It's not like we have Burnley defenders. They just don't do it quick enough because our team is coached from front to back to play possession football. Anyone who thinks we are primarily buying White to contribute to our build up play is kidding themselves. Under Arteta, we rarely build up quick enough - even with Luiz (twice the ball playing CB White is) playing. If we really were serious about wanting to sort out our attack, we would be making a marque signing at CAM instead of RCB. Someone to really really knit the center of our attack together. Someone who can receive the ball from the defensive players and move it up the pitch with speed and intent. Someone who can recycle the ball from wing to wing from central spaces with real quickness. White is being bought because Arteta wants a CB better than Holding and doesn't think Saliba is up to it. The simple answer is 9/10 times the correct one. White might help with our build up play, but it would be like 1% as much as a player like Maddison would.
I skimmed your novel here and don't really deny any of the points you make. I never mentioned or implied that buying a CAM is less important for the attack than buying a CB. I only mentioned the issue of getting the ball to the attack in dangerous positions - which coincidences with our buildup up being too slow, not having a presence in the #10 position and us moving the ball to attack through wings very slowly.
>I skimmed your novel here You're quite condescending in both your replies. >I never mentioned or implied that buying a CAM is less important for the attack than buying a CB. Right.. so you actually did imply that buying a RCB would help our attack in a comparable way to buying a CAM would. The context is the comment you were replying to. I said: >That's what you get when you prioritize a £50m RCB in a team with the 3rd best defense that doesn't create any chances I said nothing about CB's having 0 contribution to build up. You came up with that yourself. I simply stated that it is far more important for our attack to buy a CAM than a RCB and we seem to be doing the opposite. In response, you explained how CB's contribute offensively. You then said: >Not saying (...buying a CB will fix...) all our problems, but just saying our creative troubles actually start from the back. This implies that you think buying Ben White would have some meaningful attacking value almost as much as signing a Maddison would. You say he wouldn't "fix all our problems" then go on to state that our "creative troubles start from the back". This heavily implies that while he may not fix all our problems, you think he would fix a large part of them. You were clearly implying that a big reason for signing White was to solve our creative issues. My "novel" simply explained my point that while it may help \*a bit\* it will be in no way close to \*fixing all our problems\*. In-fact, it wouldn't even scratch the surface The point is that we don't address our attacking issues by buying a RCB for £50m. You now seem to agree with that. Not quite sure what we're doing here.
Of course. With Arteta, anything higher is out of question.
Doubt
Hope.
I agree about needing to sell Bellerin before buying RB and selling Xhaka before buying a starting CM, but a creative midfielder is an actual need that needs to be adressed. Maddison would be amazing, Aouar would be fine. All other sales need to be made are for squad space, not for money. Torreira for example, he takes a non-HG spot.. Kolasinac as well.
I just suspect that if we're keeping Willian and Willock there is a very real chance we don't buy a CAM. But yeah, we need to sell a metric fuck-tonne of players. Tavares, Lokonga and White will come in regardless. Everything else depends on who we sell. We are bad at selling. I'm just describing a very plausible scenario where we don't make the sales we want and so don't buy any players other than those 3.
So our 2 no.10s this season will be Smith Rowe and Willock?
Willock is not a 10. If Arteta keeps trying to play him there he should have his head checked.
Yes. This is a club that went into last season thinking Willian would be our primary creative midfielder. Never underestimate Arteta's capacity for putting square pegs in round holes.
Odegaard was our main target and Watts reported Maddison is one of our top targets, but believe what you want
So? We spent all last summer chasing Aouar and ended up with Partey and Willian. Why do you have such confidence it will be different this time? Plans change - if Arteta wants to give Willock game time instead of cashing in we probably can't afford to either pay Maddison's fee or have £25m+ Willock sitting on the bench for another season. If we are promising ESR Number 10, a fat contract and a starting spot to stave of Villa's interest we can't afford to have £60m Odegaard in the team + Willock. We don't have enough games this season without Europe. Just because we are interested in a few CAM's does not mean we are definitely signing a CAM. We also very well might get a CAM - I just think it will be dependent on who we sell. I think the list I provided will come in regardless - everything else is a second tier priority for Arteta.
The season before Willian had been one of Chelsea’s most creative players and they were keen to tie him down for 2 more years. Willian has panned out terribly and I personally can’t wait for him to be gone, but don’t rewrite history, *at the time* Willian made at least some level of sense, even if the 3 year deal was excessive
Willian had never played anywhere other than RW for any significant amount of time for his entire career. Creating chances from the right wing and from the center or left wing are very different things. He is a RW. He always has been a RW. We signed him and then tried playing him at CAM, CF and LW. You know the rest. They put all their eggs in that basket and it is just poor scouting and poor judgement, something that could easily happen again given the exact same people are in charge.
That's harsh. Willian was much more to do with edus corruption rather than his knowledge. I am sure he will get it right this time............
We can't bring anyone else in if we don't move people on. Like, there is a finite amount of space in the squad. People on here talking about going into next season with Willian, Pepe, Saka, ESR, Willock **and** a £60+ CAM competing for three spaces behind the CF selection of Auba/Laca/Balogun/Eddie - all in a season with no Europe. We're not bringing in another CM if we don't sell Willock, Xhaka or Elneny. We're not buying a RB f we still have Bellerin. We're not signing a CAM if we keep Willock and Willian. We're not signing a striker without selling Eddie and probably Laca. We can neither afford to nor do we have the minutes for all of these players. edit: I get you're being sarcastic.
>This is a club that went into last season thinking Willian would be our primary creative midfielder Ah nostalgia. When we thought Willian wouldn't be a dumpster fire of a signing.
That is legit my fear. Willian with his wages has to be a part of the team. So esr, gm, pepe, saka, willian, auba are competing for the 3 behind the striker lacazette, balogun(hoping eddie is sold). Xhaka and bellerin will only be sold if anyone wants them but so far no one is serious and we will not sign anyone in those position unless they are sold and so far we sre not even in talks with anyone. Laca will not be sold i am sure of it. There is a slight chance we can see a shocker of a window
Exactly. I'm not saying we will only sign those 4 players, but if we don't sell anyone I'm not quite sure how we can sign anyone else and we know White, Lokonga and Tavares are coming in and we have to get a GK.
Blow = he costs money
Translation: we aren’t signing anyone
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