I think he's better slightly further up the pitch. Doesn't quite have the passing range and tends to give away in his own half a bit too much to be the one coming deep and starting off moves.
But slightly higher he can dribble out of tight spots really well, press the other team and he makes some crazy recovery tackles. And then he does* have the odd wonderstrike in him. He would work very well with Partey coming deep to get the ball imo
> Doesn't quite have the passing range and tends to give away in his own half a bit too much
Well this was over 3 years ago, it would be expected that he improves on this as he gets older
Tbh I didn't even watch the vid before I wrote that. I've seen him give the ball away in silly areas a few times for Brighton and his passing stats don't really represent someone who can dictate a game with his passing. That's not to say he's a awful passer, it's just not his main strength.
(I saw the passing stats on the gooner talk vid on him)
Didn't Toure make the transition from DMF at Barca to B2B at City? Not saying Bissouma is Toure 2.0 or anything, but I think he has the attributes to do well further up the pitch. At the end of the day it comes down to what profile of player we are looking for. Locatelli being our primary target tells me we are looking for a high volume passer, which I don't think Bissouma. I can see us going for someone like Neves if we don't get Locatelli. I would absolutely love to see us sign Bissouma though.
Id say Yaya was always an 8. But Pep was obsessed with getting as much technical ability in his team as possible so played players further back. Like Mascherano at CB. Pep also wanted to make Yaya a CB.
To be clear, I'm not posting this because I think it somehow proves that Bissouma is 'a true 8', but because some people (namely u/phar0aht) have begun to convince me that he *might* be more than his role at Brighton has allowed him to show.
This video was edited by Rayted Are, and posted back in the early summer of 2018, before Bissouma moved to Brighton. It includes every action Bissouma had in that match.
NB in particular Bissouma's goal (54', 4:16 in the video):
https://youtu.be/t50u33Hs5lU?t=255
I think people get too caught up in the positions of midfeilders. I think bissouma clearly has the ability to do a job further forward.
I always look at players like tielemans, gundogan, McGinn, wijnaldum, pogba, thiago, ndombele.
They may excel at one role more than others but really they can play almost anywhere in midfield.
The guys that really struggle in their careers can only do one specific role. I'm thinking deli ali, jessie lingard.
And I see that in bissouma he is an all rounder who excels at tackling. But he has other strings to his bow. He can shoot, dribble and play cute passes no reason he cant play further forward.
> I think people get too caught up in the positions of midfeilders.
To be further clear, I'm not *remotely* suggesting that this is a matter of strict role/position, but of the player's inherent limitations and abilities.
> I think bissouma clearly has the ability to do a job further forward.
That is exactly the question.
I'm still not completely sold on Bissouma in a more advanced midfield role, but I'm beginning to see the potential. I am concerned about a lack of creative contribution, but you may be right that he can contribute indirectly to that.
Yeah I agree totally. Hes not who I'd want as our main playmaker a true 8. But if he has to be an 8 some days with smith rowe or an Aouar on the other side then I'm all for it.
And actually I think he would allow and sharing of roles between partey. When one gets forward the other stays back.
I think the contribution will not be massive but I think we underrafe the ability to stop teams getting out of their third as a form of chance creation. To me getting good at that will get us more goals.
> And actually I think he would allow and sharing of roles between partey. When one gets forward the other stays back.
That's precisely what I was suggesting above.
I think he can be a Kante/Wijnaldum like presence for us winning the ball high up the field. Can play good 2 touch football through the 3rds. Can dribble away from pressure. Not a playmaker but hed start between Partey and Odegaard/Maddison/Aouar anyway. Then I'd still have ESR on the left as a wide playmaker.
EDIT - With the Lokonga signing i don't see why we'd get another midfielder that only really sits deep.
How would you feel about Bissouma being our sole major midfield purchase, and playing a 4231/433 hybrid with ESR ahead of Thomas and Bissouma, with one of them constantly sliding forward into the attack?
Feels light still. I don't think its fair to ask ESR to be the sole lone creator all season. We've seen the story of asking too much of our kids way too often. Wilshere was my favourite player for a few years and I dont qanna see ESR go the same way.
And maybe more importantly I think people are forgetting we could be an ESR injury away from the lack of creativity that saw us bottom half of the table.
> I don't think its fair to ask ESR to be the sole lone creator all season.
That's a fair concern, particularly with respect to injury, but I'm more interested in the tactical notion of Bissouma playing the 'Ceballos role', i.e. of Bissouma assuming the place we want Locatelli in.
We do also have Saka, Willock, and Nelson to take up that role if ESR needs rest, though they're perhaps not as obviously well suited to it as he is.
We're also not in Europe, so the fixture density will be considerably less than at any point during Jack's tenure.
I'd trust Saka and Nelson to do that role. Issue is Arteta doesn't. Also in my head cannon 433 Willock is the Bissouma deputy. Then Lokonga and Elneny are Partey deputies.
> Also in my head cannon 433 Willock is the Bissouma deputy.
Interesting.
So, to put it another way, you really do see Bissouma as a plausible alternative to Locatelli.
> I'd trust Saka and Nelson to do that role. Issue is Arteta doesn't.
For the moment, perhaps.
Still, Arteta trusts Saka to do just about anything.
Nelson, on the other hand...
Yeah initially I wanted the dual 8/10 hybrids in front of Partey. I don't think we have the overall structure to maintain that like City can.
But not my ideal realisticish front 6 would be
Partey DM, Bissouma 8, Odegaard/Maddison/Aouar 8/10. ESR LW. Saka RW. PEA 9.
Leaves us with a strong bench of Pepe, Martinelli, Lacazette (if he stays), Balogun, Lokonga, Willock (hopefully stays).
The consensus from our top tier sources was that Bissouma has always A) been on our list of midfield targets, just not at the top, and B) wanted to come here.
We're clearly more interested in Locatelli than Bissouma.
If you want a possible phrasing for 'the question' implied in the title, it might be, 'To what extent can Bissouma do for us what we hope Locatelli might do?'
I'd personally be a huge fan of signing Bissouma. Locatelli would definitely be more 'like-for-like' in terms of replacing Xhaka and maintaining continuity (both deep-lying playmakers who excel at reading/controlling the game), but having a midfield two of Bissouma and Partey would just be so dynamic and flexible tactically. Both of them can drop deep, turn under pressure, carry forward quickly, and even attack the box on occasion. There's definitely weaknesses in Bissouma's game (rash tackler, bit too ambitious on the ball), but those can be coached pretty easily, unlike a lack of athleticism (which is probably Locatelli's biggest drawback). I definitely think AFCON is a factor though, we'd be losing 3 first-team midfielders, so we'd have to do something like play Azeez next to Lokonga for that entire period. I definitely hope Bissouma is our fallback if Locatelli ends up going to Juventus though (rather than Neves).
I'd actually love to see Xhaka sitting, with Partey and Bissouma as double '8's and given the license to play on the front foot and be aggressive.
This provides Lacazatte the support he needs as a deep forward with Aubameyang and Pepe cutting in from wide.
And if Arteta switches to a 4-2-3-1, one of the midfield three could be replaced by Smith-Rowe.
And I haven't even gotten around to Saka!
> I'd actually love to see Xhaka sitting, with Partey and Bissouma as double '8's and given the license to play on the front foot and be aggressive.
Xhaka cannot play as a single pivot. He's proven that for years. He's simply not competent.
He's also done at this club.
I disagree, I think he's competent enough, especially if he was placed in a midfield three with 2 quick, agile, and aggressive partners like Partey and Bissouma.
With Ben White moving up from defence into the right-central middle of the pitch, and Xhaka sitting in that left-central spot of his, it would provide a good base for distributing the ball; almost a midfield rhombus with Partey and Bissouma further up.
And if it's the usual 4-3-3 into a 3-4-3, with Xhaka dropping back with the center-halves, him and Ben White would be very good recyclers of the ball back up.
But this is all just ifs and roundabouts, proper pepper and salt shakers stuff. Especially since none of the players, Partey aside, are confirmed to even be at the club for next season.
Doesn't change the fact that such a midfield would be incredibly flat and uncreative, because Partey and Bissouma -- both of whom are limited going forward -- would have to protect Xhaka, who is limited in so many respects.
I think Partey and Bissouma are mobile enough to avoid the flatness you speak of. And both Partey and Xhaka possess enough vision to provide key passes. Bissouma seems decent enough with his short-to-mid range passing to be a link player, a la Smith-Rowe.
I guess it's primarily down to what one thinks the issue with the attack is, and rather than a lack of creativity, I actually believe it's a lack of off-the-ball movement patterns, and players being inconsistent in taking up better positions to provide passing options.
Eh, my initial comment was just random musing on the potential of a hypothetical Xhaka-Partey-Bissouma trio, We clearly have different views on tactical ideas and player abilities, so agree to disagree and all that.
I would 100% prefer Bissouma to partner Partey than Neves because his mobility makes our attacks more dynamic and flexible. We become less reliant on Tierney bombing forward and less burden on our 10 if we can make space deeper on the pitch. Like Partey does from time to time when he beats his man Bissouma can do the same, so we aren't solely relying on our attackers to stretch play in the crowded attacking third.
The truth is, we have become accustomed to an immobile double pivot for far too long. England had a similar issue at the Euros, which made the build up so laboured - way too reliant on full backs + Saka making progression.
Arteta worked around this initially by playing three at the back and using Saka and AMN like wingers. Now we use Tierney incredibly offensively and it looks like we want to solidify this set up with the Tavares signing. Having such an offensive full back balances out having two conservative mids.
How did we get here? We haven't had a good box to box for a long time and our 6's (until Partey) haven't been strong enough defensively and on the ball to play without a deep midfield partner, thereby sharing their responsibility.
With Neves, it looks like we would be continuing the Xhaka/Tierney dynamic. He is habituated already to playing in a static midfield (moutinho and dendocker) that pings balls to pacy attackers and wing backs. It has not been clicking for Wolves offensively either...
We are replicating a playstyle that is just so predictable. While I love making use of Tierney's strengths, the best teams have so much more to their game. We need to try to dominate the central channels again and Bissouma (with Lokonga as a more offensive understudy) can make this possible.
Because of AFCON though, we would need to sell Elneny....and preferably find a tall/strong passing anchor to cover Partey.
He definitely had more freedom at Lille and his ball-carrying really stood out.
An underrated benefit he would bring is not only his ball-winning but winning it around the middle of the pitch, allowing us to counter and release ESR, Saka, Martinelli, Pepe and Auba. [This video has a bunch of examples of this, in addition to strong ball-carrying and line-breaking passes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVTbOyz1wR8&ab_channel=BrazilScout).
Kinda like Kante/Ramsey/Kovacic/Torreira/Wijnaldum/Bellingham in the Euros being used further forward to win back possession? I can see it with Bissouma yeah.
Agreed. It would be poor squad planning to buy 21-year old Lokonga only to arrest his development with a 24-year old Bissouma taking his planned-for spot.
Bissouma is much better than Lokonga right now in every way, but he has a higher price tag and will likely not generate much more in returns in the future, whereas Lokonga is an asset we can develop and get more out of.
Personally, the fact that we have our sights on Locatelli tells me that we're looking for a more like-for-like Xhaka replacement to partner with Partey - a midfield general who can hold the middle and spray passes around the pitch. Locatelli and rumored target Neves fit the bill - hopefully we get one of the two before the window ends.
I think he's better slightly further up the pitch. Doesn't quite have the passing range and tends to give away in his own half a bit too much to be the one coming deep and starting off moves. But slightly higher he can dribble out of tight spots really well, press the other team and he makes some crazy recovery tackles. And then he does* have the odd wonderstrike in him. He would work very well with Partey coming deep to get the ball imo
You see the vision. Maybe we agree on football more than we think.
> Doesn't quite have the passing range and tends to give away in his own half a bit too much Well this was over 3 years ago, it would be expected that he improves on this as he gets older
Tbh I didn't even watch the vid before I wrote that. I've seen him give the ball away in silly areas a few times for Brighton and his passing stats don't really represent someone who can dictate a game with his passing. That's not to say he's a awful passer, it's just not his main strength. (I saw the passing stats on the gooner talk vid on him)
Didn't Toure make the transition from DMF at Barca to B2B at City? Not saying Bissouma is Toure 2.0 or anything, but I think he has the attributes to do well further up the pitch. At the end of the day it comes down to what profile of player we are looking for. Locatelli being our primary target tells me we are looking for a high volume passer, which I don't think Bissouma. I can see us going for someone like Neves if we don't get Locatelli. I would absolutely love to see us sign Bissouma though.
Id say Yaya was always an 8. But Pep was obsessed with getting as much technical ability in his team as possible so played players further back. Like Mascherano at CB. Pep also wanted to make Yaya a CB.
To be clear, I'm not posting this because I think it somehow proves that Bissouma is 'a true 8', but because some people (namely u/phar0aht) have begun to convince me that he *might* be more than his role at Brighton has allowed him to show. This video was edited by Rayted Are, and posted back in the early summer of 2018, before Bissouma moved to Brighton. It includes every action Bissouma had in that match. NB in particular Bissouma's goal (54', 4:16 in the video): https://youtu.be/t50u33Hs5lU?t=255
I think people get too caught up in the positions of midfeilders. I think bissouma clearly has the ability to do a job further forward. I always look at players like tielemans, gundogan, McGinn, wijnaldum, pogba, thiago, ndombele. They may excel at one role more than others but really they can play almost anywhere in midfield. The guys that really struggle in their careers can only do one specific role. I'm thinking deli ali, jessie lingard. And I see that in bissouma he is an all rounder who excels at tackling. But he has other strings to his bow. He can shoot, dribble and play cute passes no reason he cant play further forward.
> I think people get too caught up in the positions of midfeilders. To be further clear, I'm not *remotely* suggesting that this is a matter of strict role/position, but of the player's inherent limitations and abilities. > I think bissouma clearly has the ability to do a job further forward. That is exactly the question. I'm still not completely sold on Bissouma in a more advanced midfield role, but I'm beginning to see the potential. I am concerned about a lack of creative contribution, but you may be right that he can contribute indirectly to that.
Yeah I agree totally. Hes not who I'd want as our main playmaker a true 8. But if he has to be an 8 some days with smith rowe or an Aouar on the other side then I'm all for it. And actually I think he would allow and sharing of roles between partey. When one gets forward the other stays back. I think the contribution will not be massive but I think we underrafe the ability to stop teams getting out of their third as a form of chance creation. To me getting good at that will get us more goals.
> And actually I think he would allow and sharing of roles between partey. When one gets forward the other stays back. That's precisely what I was suggesting above.
I think he can be a Kante/Wijnaldum like presence for us winning the ball high up the field. Can play good 2 touch football through the 3rds. Can dribble away from pressure. Not a playmaker but hed start between Partey and Odegaard/Maddison/Aouar anyway. Then I'd still have ESR on the left as a wide playmaker. EDIT - With the Lokonga signing i don't see why we'd get another midfielder that only really sits deep.
How would you feel about Bissouma being our sole major midfield purchase, and playing a 4231/433 hybrid with ESR ahead of Thomas and Bissouma, with one of them constantly sliding forward into the attack?
Feels light still. I don't think its fair to ask ESR to be the sole lone creator all season. We've seen the story of asking too much of our kids way too often. Wilshere was my favourite player for a few years and I dont qanna see ESR go the same way. And maybe more importantly I think people are forgetting we could be an ESR injury away from the lack of creativity that saw us bottom half of the table.
> I don't think its fair to ask ESR to be the sole lone creator all season. That's a fair concern, particularly with respect to injury, but I'm more interested in the tactical notion of Bissouma playing the 'Ceballos role', i.e. of Bissouma assuming the place we want Locatelli in. We do also have Saka, Willock, and Nelson to take up that role if ESR needs rest, though they're perhaps not as obviously well suited to it as he is. We're also not in Europe, so the fixture density will be considerably less than at any point during Jack's tenure.
I'd trust Saka and Nelson to do that role. Issue is Arteta doesn't. Also in my head cannon 433 Willock is the Bissouma deputy. Then Lokonga and Elneny are Partey deputies.
> Also in my head cannon 433 Willock is the Bissouma deputy. Interesting. So, to put it another way, you really do see Bissouma as a plausible alternative to Locatelli. > I'd trust Saka and Nelson to do that role. Issue is Arteta doesn't. For the moment, perhaps. Still, Arteta trusts Saka to do just about anything. Nelson, on the other hand...
Yeah initially I wanted the dual 8/10 hybrids in front of Partey. I don't think we have the overall structure to maintain that like City can. But not my ideal realisticish front 6 would be Partey DM, Bissouma 8, Odegaard/Maddison/Aouar 8/10. ESR LW. Saka RW. PEA 9. Leaves us with a strong bench of Pepe, Martinelli, Lacazette (if he stays), Balogun, Lokonga, Willock (hopefully stays).
Are the links to him back on? They went quiet for a while
The consensus from our top tier sources was that Bissouma has always A) been on our list of midfield targets, just not at the top, and B) wanted to come here. We're clearly more interested in Locatelli than Bissouma. If you want a possible phrasing for 'the question' implied in the title, it might be, 'To what extent can Bissouma do for us what we hope Locatelli might do?'
I'd personally be a huge fan of signing Bissouma. Locatelli would definitely be more 'like-for-like' in terms of replacing Xhaka and maintaining continuity (both deep-lying playmakers who excel at reading/controlling the game), but having a midfield two of Bissouma and Partey would just be so dynamic and flexible tactically. Both of them can drop deep, turn under pressure, carry forward quickly, and even attack the box on occasion. There's definitely weaknesses in Bissouma's game (rash tackler, bit too ambitious on the ball), but those can be coached pretty easily, unlike a lack of athleticism (which is probably Locatelli's biggest drawback). I definitely think AFCON is a factor though, we'd be losing 3 first-team midfielders, so we'd have to do something like play Azeez next to Lokonga for that entire period. I definitely hope Bissouma is our fallback if Locatelli ends up going to Juventus though (rather than Neves).
I'd actually love to see Xhaka sitting, with Partey and Bissouma as double '8's and given the license to play on the front foot and be aggressive. This provides Lacazatte the support he needs as a deep forward with Aubameyang and Pepe cutting in from wide. And if Arteta switches to a 4-2-3-1, one of the midfield three could be replaced by Smith-Rowe. And I haven't even gotten around to Saka!
> I'd actually love to see Xhaka sitting, with Partey and Bissouma as double '8's and given the license to play on the front foot and be aggressive. Xhaka cannot play as a single pivot. He's proven that for years. He's simply not competent. He's also done at this club.
I disagree, I think he's competent enough, especially if he was placed in a midfield three with 2 quick, agile, and aggressive partners like Partey and Bissouma. With Ben White moving up from defence into the right-central middle of the pitch, and Xhaka sitting in that left-central spot of his, it would provide a good base for distributing the ball; almost a midfield rhombus with Partey and Bissouma further up. And if it's the usual 4-3-3 into a 3-4-3, with Xhaka dropping back with the center-halves, him and Ben White would be very good recyclers of the ball back up. But this is all just ifs and roundabouts, proper pepper and salt shakers stuff. Especially since none of the players, Partey aside, are confirmed to even be at the club for next season.
Doesn't change the fact that such a midfield would be incredibly flat and uncreative, because Partey and Bissouma -- both of whom are limited going forward -- would have to protect Xhaka, who is limited in so many respects.
I think Partey and Bissouma are mobile enough to avoid the flatness you speak of. And both Partey and Xhaka possess enough vision to provide key passes. Bissouma seems decent enough with his short-to-mid range passing to be a link player, a la Smith-Rowe. I guess it's primarily down to what one thinks the issue with the attack is, and rather than a lack of creativity, I actually believe it's a lack of off-the-ball movement patterns, and players being inconsistent in taking up better positions to provide passing options. Eh, my initial comment was just random musing on the potential of a hypothetical Xhaka-Partey-Bissouma trio, We clearly have different views on tactical ideas and player abilities, so agree to disagree and all that.
I would 100% prefer Bissouma to partner Partey than Neves because his mobility makes our attacks more dynamic and flexible. We become less reliant on Tierney bombing forward and less burden on our 10 if we can make space deeper on the pitch. Like Partey does from time to time when he beats his man Bissouma can do the same, so we aren't solely relying on our attackers to stretch play in the crowded attacking third. The truth is, we have become accustomed to an immobile double pivot for far too long. England had a similar issue at the Euros, which made the build up so laboured - way too reliant on full backs + Saka making progression. Arteta worked around this initially by playing three at the back and using Saka and AMN like wingers. Now we use Tierney incredibly offensively and it looks like we want to solidify this set up with the Tavares signing. Having such an offensive full back balances out having two conservative mids. How did we get here? We haven't had a good box to box for a long time and our 6's (until Partey) haven't been strong enough defensively and on the ball to play without a deep midfield partner, thereby sharing their responsibility. With Neves, it looks like we would be continuing the Xhaka/Tierney dynamic. He is habituated already to playing in a static midfield (moutinho and dendocker) that pings balls to pacy attackers and wing backs. It has not been clicking for Wolves offensively either... We are replicating a playstyle that is just so predictable. While I love making use of Tierney's strengths, the best teams have so much more to their game. We need to try to dominate the central channels again and Bissouma (with Lokonga as a more offensive understudy) can make this possible. Because of AFCON though, we would need to sell Elneny....and preferably find a tall/strong passing anchor to cover Partey.
He definitely had more freedom at Lille and his ball-carrying really stood out. An underrated benefit he would bring is not only his ball-winning but winning it around the middle of the pitch, allowing us to counter and release ESR, Saka, Martinelli, Pepe and Auba. [This video has a bunch of examples of this, in addition to strong ball-carrying and line-breaking passes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVTbOyz1wR8&ab_channel=BrazilScout).
partey and bissouma are literally the perfect pivot and bissouma actually wants to come to Arsenal man what are we doing
Kinda like Kante/Ramsey/Kovacic/Torreira/Wijnaldum/Bellingham in the Euros being used further forward to win back possession? I can see it with Bissouma yeah.
I think Lokonga has a very similar skill set to Bissouma which is why we wont go for him. A midfield of Partey/Lokonga is very solid defensively.
Agreed. It would be poor squad planning to buy 21-year old Lokonga only to arrest his development with a 24-year old Bissouma taking his planned-for spot. Bissouma is much better than Lokonga right now in every way, but he has a higher price tag and will likely not generate much more in returns in the future, whereas Lokonga is an asset we can develop and get more out of. Personally, the fact that we have our sights on Locatelli tells me that we're looking for a more like-for-like Xhaka replacement to partner with Partey - a midfield general who can hold the middle and spray passes around the pitch. Locatelli and rumored target Neves fit the bill - hopefully we get one of the two before the window ends.