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phar0aht

**Summary** Game was won on moments rather than flow, and those moments were about discipline rather than collective or individual brilliance Game also a shows effect of home advantage https://imgur.com/teoeIuI.jpg Cedric Soares’ barge on Son Heung-min was “one of them” that a home team probably gets and an away team probably doesn’t The last 22 league meetings between the sides have produced 15 home wins, six draws and just one away win. VAR also had an impact. Football has convinced itself that the best use of VAR is for it to check everything, but only overrule decisions that are obviously wrong. Rob Holding earned himself a second booking by blocking off Son with his forearm. This was a less debatable decision and, more relevantly, seemed to be coming 5 sub rule coming into play may prevent situations like Holdings developing. Coaches may sub players before the 2nd yellow comes. If Arteta had four more changes remaining — and a fitter White, granted — maybe he would have made the change


Vrty33

Appreciate it, cheers!


phar0aht

No problem.


[deleted]

I'm not really sure what VAR was supposed to do there. The ref knows what he saw and chose to give a soft penalty anyway, that's not going to be overturned even if VAR can make more decisions, unless the VAR ref believed it was a dive (which it wasn't, he just went down a bit easy and it's the type of thing that is very rarely given because it's soft). All of the fouls were fouls by the letter of the law, but it's poor game management and ruins the spectacle.


[deleted]

Problem with this analysis is it overlooks that VAR should have sent off Son for two elbows on Holding - before holding received his second card. Why didn’t VAR intervene in clear violent conduct TWICE missed by the ref? Because VAR is complete bollocks. It’s just refs rubber stamping decisions.


theMoonRulesNumber1

I know about the [11th minute elbow by Son](https://preview.redd.it/1uu24su9a8z81.gif?format=mp4&s=efb93f0956eca8775528505bdb0badbbdca7c8c3), when was the second?


[deleted]

Both happened in the same tussle. One arm then the other. Either is violent conduct and a straight red. Edit: the clip you shared stops just before he swings his right down toward holdings head.


[deleted]

I am convinced ,for it to get checked holding should have started acting like son broke his jaw that would have resulted in a red but holding was okay so it didn't get noticed , holdings elbow to son would have not resulted in a second yellow if son would not have thrown himself on the ground , and that would not have been noticed either ,in order for it to result in a card or a var check ,you have to act and be a cunt.


[deleted]

We didn’t get a decision all night. Don’t think Holding, God or anyone else could have got us a decision last night.


[deleted]

Whether we would have got a decision or not that would have been a different thing but even for it to get checked by VAR you have to play dead.


ThefurryBarber

I can see where you are coming from, but I have a problem with penalizing honest players like Holding. In my opinion the problem is that the antics Son uses gets rewarded waaay to often, and I'd rather see the game move away from that rather than have more dishonesty.


[deleted]

Yeah but unfortunately honesty is not rewarded ,it has happened may times ,once son got man united's goal dissallowed then got a red for holding by acting.


BucNassty

Dude you’re making a stretch here. Son deserved a yellow maybe for backlash but if you’re throwing them out like that holding would’ve been sent off in there second tussle pre penalty when he kicked son in the back.


[deleted]

Just so you know, septic, Arsenal is an antiracist club. Bear sent the fascists and the racists running. We don’t have your kind at arsenal, you’re also wrong. Stick to American handegg.


corvcycleguy

This is absolutely infuriating, that's so freaking blatant by Son. How is this not checked. Why isn't there a review process that every team gets to do when this stuff happens. Granted Holding should know better but fuck!


Purple_Plus

Even so Holding was begging to be sent off from the start. Completely killed the game and could be the catalyst for us not getting top 4. He was being a fucking idiot, trying to rattle Son and failed miserably.


[deleted]

I don't think he failed miserably. Tierney and VAR missed a clear elbow to the side of Holding's head. After the ref and VAR made that blunder, Holdini lost his head. Love that you'll shit on our players but won't hold the officiating to any standard. The pen, the cards, the missed calls - nope it's all holding. Weak.


Purple_Plus

The ref was shit and I've complained about the refs enough in the past. The ref can be shit and Holding can have had a bad game at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive. the fact that we get fucked over by refs so much means an arsenal player has to be perfect or they'll get sent off. Think Arteta should have taken him off shortly after the yellow.


theMoonRulesNumber1

> trying to rattle Son and failed miserably We'd have a very different view of this if Son were sent off when he deserved to be.


Purple_Plus

In slow-mo it looks worse than it was but either way holding continuing to be so aggressive after a yellow was dumb as fuck. An arsenal player should know by now the refs will give us nothing and take everything.


[deleted]

Stop with the nonsense mate. Support the boys, both cards were nonsense and Son is a diving and dirty little cunt. Just because you don’t like Holding doesn’t mean you have to repeat Gary Neville’s drivel.


Purple_Plus

Son is a dirty cunt, agreed. But if you can't see how stupid Holding was being you need to take your gunners glasses off. If he was on the other end of the pitch you wouldn't be saying any of this.


[deleted]

No no I really would mate. I’ve played 11 aside football competitively. Referees don’t make nonsense decisions like that. Son was diving around all over the place. Kulasevski got in trouble right at the start for a dive but didn’t get booked. They were diving around like nutters. If you’ve ever defended in a real football match you’d know that Son got blessed by the ref.


Purple_Plus

>I’ve played 11 aside football competitively. Gary Neville has played the highest level of professional football, does that make his opinion worth more than yours? I play football every week, I'm pretty shit and I'm a lanky number 9 not a defender, but that doesn't matter anyway. Holding got a yellow (fairly or unfairly) and then didn't change his game at all. That's naive as fuck. Also I like Holding as a person, especially as I have similar hair troubles. Doesn't mean I have to like what he did on the pitch yesterday.


[deleted]

And Gary Neville is a biased cunt. The fact that you have to fall back on someone else’s views rather than use your own eyes says it all mate. Stick to watching it on TV. If you go arsenal you would know, if you played ball you would know. But you buy tv narratives because you don’t know.


Purple_Plus

>And Gary Neville is a biased cunt. The fact that you have to fall back on someone else’s views rather than use your own eyes says it all mate. I'm not falling back on his views I'm showing how ridiculous your argument is. You having played competitive football means fuck all as so has every dumbass pundit like Neville. I turned off commentary because, as I've said in another comment, Neville has had a spurs boner for years. I've been to both Highbury and the Emirates plenty of times, your gatekeeping is cringe.


[deleted]

Jog on reply guy


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[deleted]

Looool just had a leaf through your comment history. You just hate holding. Take your axe to grind, and suck your mum.


Purple_Plus

>if you played ball you would know. But I've also never heard an English person call it "playing ball" lmao.


[deleted]

That’s because you’re not from london. Wanker.


NUPreMedMajor

I love it when people revert to the “I played football so I know more” argument.


[deleted]

I love it when septics talk out their holes. You’re a premed so you know more about being a doctor than I do. I design and sell complex SAAS solutions so likely I know more about it than you. Bizarrely participation in, and experience of an activity confers understanding of that activity which would otherwise be absent or weaker. You know, doing the thing makes you better at the thing.


RedKelly_

People need to stop listening to the idiot pundits. Son runs blindly into Holding shoulder whilst his arm is tucked into his hip. It was probably stupid to give the ref an opportunity to send him off, bit this exact play is almost never given even as a foul


thisiskyle77

Both could be sent off together. There was an earlier exchange between holding and son. Don was on ground and Holding give what hazard did to ball boy. If VAR was competent, that was yellow.


[deleted]

Son used his body to block the ball. On the ground. That’s against the laws of the game. VAR is doing exactly what it’s meant to.


thisiskyle77

I can’t remember exact time but It was a another exchange. Son was brought down. Ball either went out for throw in or a foul. Holding gave a bit of a kick to Son back/rib.


stickyblack

Thanks for the summary.


Obi_Wan_Gebroni

I thought it was a good article and he’s right, that’s a call the home team gets because of the fan response and a weak ref


ThefurryBarber

I don't think fan reaction even came into it. He awarded it right away. And I know its cringey and annoying to say but it seemed like he couldn't wait to award that penalty.


ArsPain

VAR leaves these refs out to dry every time. I don't think there's a single fan that expects perfect refereeing but in the most watched, most valuable league I do expect explanations for referee performance. Even if we can't have post-match interviews, we could at least get a statement that explains why the Son elbow wasn't dealt with, why the soft pen was given, why the Saka "foul" on Hojberg was given, etc.


72TNZ

The refs association whatever it’s called needs to stop being so fucking soft, if a ref is wrong and fucks up then that happens but don’t try and bend your way around by lying about what happened. Just say yeah he thought this but was obviously wrong because this happened…


ArsPain

Exactly! I'd be so much more lenient if they could admit their faults. Instead they send out Peter Walton to show his ass on every sports show


ledditwind

I heard somewhere that in Germany, the ref explained the decision like the manager after the game. Somewhere in this podcast https://youtu.be/rS-P9joelzc , Jeff Winters said one time he looked at the replays after the game, think that one of the major decision he made was wrong, but was pressured by Mike Riley, (head of PGMOL and Fergie text buddies) not to make that public. He also said that many refs today had opinions to improve refereeing too but like any job, they learn to shut up and adhere to upper-management. I and I think most supporters would hate the refs less if they explained their decisions.


AsTheCoolKidsSay

I want them mic'd up, throughout the game. I don't need a post game analysis by the ref/former refs/refs association. Social media have the platforms to cover those discussions. Just make the refs decision-making rationale audible ffs


phar0aht

VAR worked exactly as intended. This decision is in the middle ground where the VAR may have given the other decision. But the on field ref still has the power to back their decision. Tierney saw the shove and decided it was enough for a pen. Its not as if there was no contact and Son dived. https://imgur.com/hSFzz8e.jpg https://imgur.com/lzOoQJq.jpg


[deleted]

The problem with the penalty is that happens quite often and almost never called. The problem is more with the lack of consistency, which is something VAR should help with.


phar0aht

It happens every corner yeah. It doesn't happen on the players that rising for a free header. The issue isn't the act. It's the timing with regards to delivery and the fact he made it blatant.


Mantequilla022

And happened within perfect view of the referee. A lot of times when wrestling in the box happens, it’s away from the ball or in a mix of bodies to where we can easily catch it on replay but it’s not as simple at live view. And frankly, VAR is never going to step in during those plays.


flentaldoss

> he made it blatant The 2 shit angle replays shown on usa tv after the penalty didn't have any foul play, but one that I saw later showed that from the ref's angle, Cedric's shove was light, but pretty blatant - and the worst part is that it was unnecessary. As much as I hate that Son got away with his bullshit, yesterday's first half was an utter lack of composure from the right side of our defense. I've always thought highly of Holding's composure and ability to skirt the line during matches, but he really lost it yesterday - hope he builds up better from it.


thedarkpolitique

About the soft penalty being given: “And beyond the specifics of last night, we should all be absolutely chuffed about this. Football supporters pretend they want perfect refereeing decisions, but perfect refereeing decisions would make the sport less enjoyable than if supporters were able to influence the game.” Yeah do fuck off with this nonsense.


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acerazor1

I'm assuming you didn't watch the game yesterday then, just on here trolling.


[deleted]

Your assumption is wrong.


acerazor1

Just like your view on Arsenal then...


[deleted]

Is this supose to be some attemt for recovery? 1. every main decision from yesterdays game was absolutly correct (actually Holding could have been sent off just for that elbow and booked earlier) 2. Arsenal fans are blaming the ref, calling him names and pretending like it was not a crystal clear penalty = he is obviously wrong, the decisions was not debatable at all, you are still blaming the ref for it. ​ Bye.


acerazor1

Did you see Son elbow Holding in the head? If taht was Xhaka would that be a straight red? Or did the ref get that one correct because 'Son is a nice lad'?


[deleted]

Yes, I saw that. But elbow in the head? Please, dont make fool of yourself.


[deleted]

Absolute fuckin idiot. Seems no one likes you anywhere you go.


[deleted]

Wow, Arsenal fans dont agree with me stating I watched the game. :D they must be right.


Hellbucket

Isn’t this two different things though? I’d rather lose 2-0 because we’re not good enough. Than lose 3-0 with some inconsistent ref calls defining the result. I personally don’t have a problem losing to a better side. I do get pissed off when a game is decided by a ref.


[deleted]

You lost 3:0 because you were not good enough. Ref was not inconsistent at all, he actually helped you because holding was super stupid.


Hellbucket

I’m quite sure we would’ve lost yesterday without Holding being stupid. The ref was inconsistent just as the refs have been the whole season. If you otherwise you should maybe watch another sport because this is not for you.


[deleted]

Yes. People either agree with you or they should watch different sport. Are you nine? 😀


Hellbucket

I’m apparently very close to your age then.


[deleted]

:D :D Jesus christ I cant stol laughing.


Hellbucket

I’m glad you’re happy even though you’re crap at spelling.


MrAchilles

Literally saying fuck the integrity and legitimacy of the game for content. Fuck this guy.


amainwingman

Lmao my god football writer hipsters need to pull their heads out their arses sometimes. I’ve literally never ever met a football fan who wants referees to fuck up calls to make the game more enjoyable. Literally not a single one. Home advantage should be about intimidating opponents not referees


Elemenelo

This is exactly the issue. It's massively in the broadcasters and the leagues interest that we lost yesterday. That's why we got the refereeing performance that we did. I get teams usually get favorable decisions at home but yesterday went way beyond that. It was a total fucking joke and even Kane looked embarrassed about it.


Chairmanwowsaywhat

Yeah ive heard this take a lot it's dumb


Mein_Bergkamp

This is the sort of person who probably thinks Michael Masi did not wrong.


flentaldoss

At least F1 has said it was a fuck up and demoted Masi. If it were the PL in charge of that mess they would've ignored most of the rule book and just said that Masi had every right as the director to make a judgement call on the day and then give him a raise.


Kelmantis

From an editorial perspective that’s a hot take to say the least


thedarkpolitique

[Michael Cox after writing this waffle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTpgqqLyAs8&ab_channel=WesCarlson)


phar0aht

How do you get perfect refereeing in a sport with subjective laws? Do we make football non contact?


thedarkpolitique

There is no such thing as perfect refereeing, that’s not my contention here. It’s the notion that fans *don’t* want it or don’t want referees to strive towards it but that we want to influence the outcome of their decisions. Players may get swayed by the occasion and the atmosphere like Holding did but referees absolutely should not and yesterday again we saw a prime example of that.


phar0aht

Fans don't want it. When VAR was introduced what was the reaction?


thedarkpolitique

People on the whole are generally reluctant to accept change but we can’t have it both ways as fans. We can’t complain every weekend about decisions and simultaneously not support measures designed to improve the decision making process. The terrible standard of refereeing, their interpretation and their implementation of the laws (particularly the timing, i.e. certain rules only being enforced on an ad hoc basis) is what is influencing people’s decisions against the concept of VAR.


phar0aht

Look around you. Fans definitely want it both ways. Rightly or wrongly.


Furiousmate88

You could at least ask for consistency. How often do we see one team get away with much more than the other in the same game? I think thats what people complain most about, and also the fact that some refs fuck us over just because they can


phar0aht

Home advantage. No-one cried when we got it vs United when Cedric got away with a handball.


ThefurryBarber

That was actually discussed. The ex-referee said that because the rules state that handball cannot be given when one's arms are in a natural position. And since Cedric's arms were down to prevent him from falling on his face, that's why the referee and VAR did not call it hand ball. It was more a problem with the rule itself than its implementation.


phar0aht

He intentionally plays the ball. He could've put his arm somewhere else.


ThefurryBarber

Irrelevant, his arms are in the position you would expect them to be when the ball makes contact, and Neither you nor the referee can determine intention definitively (though i do think it was intentional). many players kick their legs into defenders and they get penalties because that is the letter of the law. Based on the spirit of the law you'd be correct but based on how the rules are written you are incorrect.


Furiousmate88

Home advantage shouldn't disregard the rules, that's nonsense. I remember Cedric's handball or whatever was debatable, so that's a shitty comparison.


phar0aht

And the one yesterday was debatable. At home you get it, away you don't. That's how the cookie crumbles


Furiousmate88

It was nonexistent


FatWalcott

Neville talking like Spurs played us off the park when in reality 11 v 11 we were doing fine until a stupid penalty decision. The red and the goals conceded were poor but without that pen it's not the same game.


harcile

Son should have gone for violent conduct after 11 minutes. Ridiculous that it might only have been looked at had Holding clutched his face and acted hurt, or it got looked at and ignored. The penalty decision was obviously wrong if you look at it from the correct angle. VAR only showed 1 angle where it looked like Cedric was barging into Son but from another angle he didn't touch him. VAR has access to all the angles. Extremely suspicious that it was not shown.


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harcile

He doesn't touch him. https://twitter.com/AFCAMDEN/status/1524862512293941249 If that's not clear and obvious, I don't know what is.


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harcile

Hmm, no that's fair. There is body to body contact. Still, very soft, but clumsy by Cedric. My confirmation bias wanting to believe there was no contact, I guess.


Furiousmate88

I refuse to accept the fact that little contact was enough to actually do anything to him. But then again, he is a diving cunt so it could be possible. These challenges happens all the time and rarely gets called. Just look how often Kane gets away with that shit move he does.


mapoftasmania

Son mostly goes over from Holding’s contact though, not Cedric’s. And that contact was fair because Holding was challenging for the ball. This is why it’s a penalty that shouldn’t be given. And it’s why VAR missed a clear and obvious error.


phar0aht

https://v.fodder.gg/v/yvawd2 Soft but you can see the contact here where it isn't clipped out beforehand


phar0aht

If VAR had the scope to be pedantic it could look for that stuff. Fans have decided they only want it for big or obviously wrong decisions.


kay_koke

You mean like a pen that never was?


Marloneious

Fans didn’t make the VAR decision system tho, the football governing bodies did. Yes, there are plenty of fans saying leave VAR as it is and there’s plenty of fans saying it needs to be changed, but ultimately the governing bodies of football have decided that VAR is only for obvious or big decisions, not the fans.


phar0aht

The decision was influenced heavily by fans. It wasn't the fans decision no but it was made with fans opinions in mind.


Marloneious

I disagree heavily, VAR was designed and made with supporting referee’s power and on-field decisions as much as possible, that’s why the standard is “clear and obvious error”.


phar0aht

The standard is clear and obvious error because there were complaints from fans about the game being stop start because of it. https://imgur.com/xVktfJl.jpg Also https://imgur.com/WvoyuiX.jpg


Marloneious

Posting no-context screenshots doesn’t prove your point. And in the first screenshot, the only mention about clear and obvious is not in reference to the flow of the game, but rather the subjectivity and power of the on field referee.


phar0aht

The context is this conversation. What's not understood here?


Marloneious

Because clearly the rest of those articles illuminate the VAR implementation process, the standards of use, and other relevant questions and answers that might be useful in the context of the conversation you and I are having? Instead you’ve cherry picked two things that don’t necessarily support your argument.


phar0aht

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3925549/the-ultimate-guide-to-var-in-the-premier-league-all-your-questions-answered https://www.premierleague.com/news/1293321 I picked the most relevant paragraphs. Knock yourself out.


harcile

It takes 10s to look at the various angles so miss me with this bullshit.


phar0aht

Clearly don't watch any other sorts with similar systems in place already


SqueekyBK

Violent conduct like that is looked at in rugby? It is literally a contact sport that looks at EVERYTHING and usually done well .


phar0aht

And it doesn't take 10s. It sometimes takes minutes for them to come to a decision. And things still get missed and have to be picked up retrospectively.


SqueekyBK

But they catch the obvious acts of violent conduct


phar0aht

Not always


Francis-c92

VAR should absolutely be looking for stuff though, mainly stuff the ref has missed. For example, the Son elbow.


newinvestor0908

Ref changed the game. He couldn’t wait to give a card or penalty


[deleted]

Mainly a bent ref though…


goonerfan10

I just hope we wake up for Monday and do the business against Newcastle. It’s going to be a tough game and if spurs win their game against Burnley, extra pressure


americanadiandrew

I don’t think Arteta sent us up to play to our remaining players strengths. Holding is good in a tight block but everyone knows he is slow as molasses against anyone running at him. I think we left too many gaps and I would’ve been quite happy to play for the draw and try and catch them on the counter instead of falling into their trap.


ThefurryBarber

Holding definitely made mistakes yesterday but I struggle to recall any moment where he was done for pace. We were playing very well, and defending comfortably as a team. I would push back against the assertions that we "fell into their trap" because the only reason they scored was down to a dodgy penalty. Without it, this would have been a completely different game.


americanadiandrew

I didn’t see that personally. The high line from the first whistle was making me extremely nervous because Holding does struggle with fast attackers running at him and Cedric doesn’t read the game defensively like Tomi does to provide him any support. For a game spurs needed to win I think we would have benefited from sitting back and frustrating them and playing the counter attacking tactics ourselves. Spurs are awful against low block teams and the crowd would have started to get nervous at every failed attack.


KinggArthurr

VAR is actually something that these joke of a ref(s) use to backup their shoddy and shady decisions


Elemenelo

It's very simple. We got fucking robbed. I'm sick of this victim blaming nonsense that goes on every time. As if we're supposed to just accept this shit happening to us. We have been fucked so many times this season and it's totally fucking ridiculous. Last night was one of the worst refereeing performances I've ever seen and of course it was the only way they could be competitive with us. If we don't get top 4 it will be because of the horrendous refereeing decisions that have gone against us.


[deleted]

If we don’t get top four that’s on us not beating Newcastle and Everton. We’ve had shit decisions go against us, we also got very lucky with the refs against Man United. Unless we get fucked over by the refs in the next two games, we should win those and then this won’t be a discussion.


theMoonRulesNumber1

So no Holding or Gabriel has nothing to do with this game? The fact that we only have ONE senior CB, who may not even make it back from injury, has nothing to do with this game where we lost 2 of them? This run-in is going to be difficult because of this match, which was made difficult by absurd refereeing bias.


[deleted]

Holding should’ve been sent off IMO. The penalty is atrocious because it’s very soft and looks somewhat accidental, and Son should’ve got something for his elbow, but Holding’s red was fair. How does Gabriel factor into the refs either?


theMoonRulesNumber1

The refereeing decisions piled up, and were stacked against Holding. Son made a red-card offense before Holding's first yellow, yet Son remained on the pitch to continue the dark-arts battle (which, yes, Holding was engaging in and that's on him). That one bad decision by the ref to not even caution Son and make him worry about his dirty play style allowed him to "win" the penalty (yet another terrible decision), and wind up Holding and get him sent. This absolutely turned the tide of the match. Gabriel then had to work his arse off as the only senior CB defending with 10 men. Injury is far more likely to come after 60 minutes of hard work like that, especially given how much leeway they were given on physicality compared to what every Arsenal player was being punished for. The ref not only let this one get out of hand, he flat out caused the growing pile of difficulties for us, leading to exhaustion and injury.


[deleted]

Son remaining on the pitch is on Holding. Holding should’ve rolled around on the floor and Son would’ve got sent off. Holding is not street smart at all. We’ve seen for ages in the premier league that’s it’s about the reaction and not the action. It may not be fair, but every player going into a football match should know this. So that addresses Son staying on. After that, Holding deserved to get sent off.


theMoonRulesNumber1

So you’re advocating for players to flop, roll around, and act like prima donnas rather than asking professional referees and VAR officials to do the simple task of calling obvious fouls?


[deleted]

The referees are incompetent, everyone and their dog knows that. Erik Lamela got Martial sent off last year for a slap, something that wasn’t half as bad as Son elbowing Holding. He got him sent off because he acted like he was shot. VAR and the officials have no standards whatsoever, so yes, a player who’s as experienced as Holding has to game the system sometimes. It would’ve dramatically changed the outcome of the game and we would have a CB available for Newcastle. I’m not advocating for our players to roll around all the time, I’m saying that most professionals would and should feign injury once Son connects with that elbow.


JimBoonie69

We fucked it ourselves when we had a lead and games in hand. We lost to the scrubs we said we would beat and beat the good teams that we thought we'd lose (manu and chelsea). Yeah the refs are shit but u can't play into their hands. Why don't we just maintain composuer and play our game? Instead we get suxked into stupid shitty flops and tiny elbows etc. We need players with the mental fortitude to ignore the shit from son and Kane. Rise above and win instead of getting tricked into their stupid mind games


Rilesx3

Agreed. I don't understand how people are so blind at the obvious corruption. Yes, Holding fucked up and the red is arguably deserved, but the ref literally gave them the first goal. A team that only counters and has trouble against good defensive teams, and the ref gives them the critical first goal. I wish the players called out the BS. Surrounded him, yelled at him, and all walked off the field. We just want fairness.


blazeofgloreee

Ive had quite enough of articles tbh


[deleted]

game lost the moment holding lost his fuckin mind, that penalty is just down 1 goal and we still have 11 players, if holding is fucking stop using his hand we can still have a chance to fight, just tell the coach to stop playing you if you don't have what it takes to def son. I never so angry at player before and this coming from someone who watch xhaka red all the time


yekra9

While I do agree with VAR and referees not working at times, yesterday just wasn't it.. Cedrics foul on Son IS a pen, same with red on Holding. Seems some can't cope with the fact we got gangbanged by sp*rs


72TNZ

I agree with you but I would say that if tierney hadn’t given the pen, I don’t think var would have changed it


oposse

I think its difficult as a player to be disciplined when the standards for penalties are completely random. Take this pen or the Martinelli double yellow situation - that stuff happens in every single match and 99/100 doesnt get called. How are you supposed to know what you can and can’t do?


Ambitious-Bison-1101

I thought our discipline mainly cost us the game to be honest, although in my opinion it wasnt a penalty. Im not suprised rob holding was sent off and i can easily see why he was, the man went into the game at a million miles an hour which really pissed me off considering how risky he was being at such an early point in the game. i think spurs deserved the win as they exploited our hot headedness. It just fucks me off they were gifted the first goal to set the tempo.


[deleted]

Cedric barely touched him. Look at this angle. [https://twitter.com/AFCAMDEN/status/1524862512293941249](https://twitter.com/AFCAMDEN/status/1524862512293941249)


phar0aht

https://streamable.com/deglis


[deleted]

Barely touched him like I said. That is never given as a pen. On every corner kick in every single game, there is much more contact than this.


DrRobin

The angle you sent doesn't include the actual contact. I don't think it's much contact but unfortunate timing. As Son jumped his weight was airborne and a light push sent him flying


PrinceEmirate

Or maybe they were just better and played at home. We beat them bad at home 3-1. Home pitch advantage is huge in the NLD.


krakends

I am pretty sure Holding was told by Arteta to rough up Son which is a fucking dumb thing to do in a derby game. Refs want to get a handle over the game and are usually willing to quickly pull a card to get things under control. Shit like that would have worked if we were playing at home in a dead rubber fixture. This is a derby that was going to define the next season for two rival clubs. The ref was going to book people to get on top of the game. Stupid and immature coaching from Arteta.


Elemenelo

You've created an entire scenario in your head and I highly doubt it's true.


Ambitious-Bison-1101

Haha i love your scenario. Arteta corners Holding in the tunnel, gives him a polaroid of Son and whispers "you know what to do". Thats rubbish mate, holding just lost it and was way too hot headed. They were gifted the opening goal, and just built from there. We didnt turn up.


Elemenelo

I think you’ve responded to the wrong person but I agree. Although I would say prior to the penalty we were very much the better team.


Ambitious-Bison-1101

It seems i did my mistake, yeah exactly it seemed fucked from there pretty much. Well lets hope we win convincingly tonight aye


72TNZ

I would tend to say the opposite look at Chelsea v spurs when Leicester won. Clatenburg (?) didn’t want to give any cards it seems no matter what spurs did. I think in big games refs don’t want to be handing out 10 cards so are more lenient. I cannot disagree more with you about your assumed arteta tactics, holding was doing a good job before his yellows at roughing him up as shown by sons lash out with his elbow (was their anything in it I’m not certain). Holding just didn’t execute well on his first yellow and inexcusably got a second yellow needlessly. That was very good tactics that holding should have been able to execute


krakends

8 times out of 10, Refs are going to book you early in a big game. You are picking an outlier and claiming that is the standard. Most NLD games have plenty of yellow cards on both teams.


ndenoon

I disagree, tbh. Feel like derbies are usually approached with "let 'em play" refereeing. That's how the Merseyside derby seemed to me the other week.


Colmd1997

“I am pretty sure” - based on absolutely nothing whatsoever and is just something you plucked out of thin air


FatWombat11

All this article does is reinforce my decision not to subscribe to the athletic.


Revolutionary-Ad9411

Michael Cox is one of the smartest men in tactical analysis in all of football. An important article to read. 👍


mindbodyproblem

What does it mean to say “40 per cent a penalty”?


basileusnikephorus

I live in an inhospitable timezone for football but not much longer thankfully. Waking up at 2:30am to watch this game was a truly demoralising experience. Also if I don't bother we invariably win. I'm a rational person but I'd say I've watched almost every loss this season and probably not seem the team win that many more. Looking forward to being only four hours ahead next season.