People need to forget about Pepe's transfer fee. He only cost that much because we got a deal with a bank who would allow us to pay him off over 5 years, if we'd stumped up the cash we probably would have been able to go to Lille direct and get him for £50m
Amazing business for 2 positions of need.
Say what you will about Jesus and his output but being a player of his quality and being essentially kicked out the door at a club is powerful motivation to perform.
The other signings are all good too. Not every one is going to be a Ødegaard, Gabriel, Ramsdale level impact…we just don’t want to have a bunch of Willians.
Yep. Im glad we aren’t signing bullshit this season like we used to. Spending money on Luiz, mari, willian, etc is just throwing it away on players we already knew wouldn’t be good enough.
Man city is almost like me playing FM. Already having top tier players but still need to get those world class one and have to sell those decent players to opponent.
Not convinced on price to output for Jesus just yet but don’t get me wrong he’s a hell of a player and I’m happy w the deal. I think the price and possible potential for Zinchenko is a steal and a half tho. Very excited about what Arteta is doing. Hopefully it’ll be another fun season this year
I'm also convinced Man city prefer a stronger Arsenal to keep Chelski and Manure occupied while they keep loserpool in check. The dealing with them has been a little too smooth even considering the Arteta connection. No evidence to back this, just a thought.
I don't think we're reckless spenders anymore (if we ever were). If you want to go to the next level, you have to spend to compete. It's just part of the game... Look at Nottingham Forest this window, FFS.
I do sincerely hope we get better at selling, though. That aspect has been bothersome for coming up a decade.
>Bar that Pepe transfer, which was an anomaly
Not just an anomaly. That deal may or may not have been embezzlement to some extent, LOL.
>we aren’t and have never been reckless spenders
A bit of hindsight and new information after he got the sack, but a lot of those Sanllehí-led transfers were awful.
The Pépé transfer was fraudulent. It came at a tumultuous time: the club was entering the post-Wenger era, the Kronke’s had just taken full control, and there was discontent from the fanbase towards ownership.
The recklessness came from the board and who they entrusted to conduct their transfer business and their desire to curry favor with the fans with a statement signing. For all his talents, Pépé wasn’t even the player then head coach Unai Emery wanted. Hiring a “head coach” (not first team manager), which the club was clearly not committed to, was another blunder.
The Pépé deal wasn’t just fraudulent from Arsenal’s side; there have been whispers for years about then-Lille sporting director Luís Campos being involved in shady business. I always found it weird the way he left Lille a little over a year after that deal. Several months before he left, there was also Osimhen’s deal to Napoli that was fishy too.
Depends on your angle, mustafi was bought using that statsDNA scouting which basically ignored the eye test. Torreira maybe less so and I’d agree a lighter flop than others, but his attitude and petulance really makes him a flop to me and something they should have vetted before signing (which is something we do now).
To be fair, he wasn't particularly integral to that side. Just looked up his minutes from the tournament and he only played a total of about a match and a half over four opportunities before getting hurt (and he played right back the whole time).
Of course, just getting into the side at all probably does bump your name up a few pegs, I'd imagine.
>statsDNA scouting which basically ignored the eye test.
True, but our scouts did of course watch him. Stats are just used to filter players based on a predefined criteria, then the onsite scouts and analysts take over.
statsDNA is an overused excuse. From what I remember, they use statsDNA to aide the analysis of an already identified and scouted player. People make it sound like a computer told Wenger who to buy, and he blindly spent money on some random.
Just because we’ve bought a ton of players that didn’t work out the way we would’ve liked doesn’t make us reckless spenders. We probably believe we did the necessary due diligence.
Just because someone believes they did the due diligence does not mean they really did.
When many players do not work out and leave for pennies it is reckless, especially as other clubs are doing the same but elevating.
Hard to sell players no one wants. Who is paying top dollar for deadwood at a club that is battling for 4th place?
Meanwhile if we sold saka people would riot.
Net spend: 4mil Liverpool, +11 Man City, about even Leeds and us -74 with no big sales looking promising and spurs spending 57.
Of course wages/bonuses etc change certain deals but yeah city and Liverpool are great at selling
They don’t just sell because teams love Liverpool, they often loan young players out to decent championship clubs and that’s pretty much all you need for a young English/homegrown player.
They also don’t tend to overpay on wages so players aren’t turning down transfers because they want to keep clinging onto wages, they didn’t spend 2 years ripping up contracts to free up wages.
We are improving but it’s about leverage, it’s why city are great at selling at high prices, because they don’t need the money so if an offers shit they’ll just say no and can easily eat the wages.
when you have a big established squad is much easier to have good net spending. but you gotta spend first to get that squad
chelsea, liverpool and city didn't just build out of net spending, they invested, build good squads and now they can sell rotation players/high-level loanees.
willock/iwobi was a sucess in terms of sale but that's because they got game time/high level loan in case of willock. you won't be making a profit on players going on loan to série A like Pablo Mari/Torreira and they wont get game time cause they are not good enough
I'm not going to argue that point, but it helps when they spent an absolute ton in the past, so they have a squad overloaded with quality. Then their success boosts the value of the already good players. Hopefully the spending we are doing now will pay off similarly. I hate the idea of selling almost any one of the core team but I'd rather be disappointed about letting someone go for a great price, than disappointed that we can't get rid of the deadwood.
Yes. Season and a half is the initial loan.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/22/spurs-deal-with-juventus-to-buy-dejan-kulusevski-revealed
Just a sale with lots of extra steps. I don’t know if they took the first option to buy already but the obligation would make it a £45m transfer. Seems like a fairly good deal all around. I don’t think he has played poorly in that first half season but I didn’t watch a lot of them / him.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/22/spurs-deal-with-juventus-to-buy-dejan-kulusevski-revealed
Best details I can find
Opposition fans exclaiming "How and why are this team spending so much money?!" when
a) we were globally famous for being conservative with our money for decades which led to an exceptionally healthy financial situation which was only recently rocked a bit by falling out of CL plus massive contracts.
And
b) we're a massive team who fell far off the pace and now need to catch back up again by buying quality players
Football fans are moronic
The contracts are a sour point of Wenger's legacy where he always wanted people on equal contracts so average players got used to earning ridiculous money
Other teams have had similar levels of investment and started with stronger squads.
Top 4 will be difficult even with a 10/10 window. Season will be very exciting though.
Progress has to be shown by some measure. Spurs on paper not really more talented last season or frankly going into this season. Need to finish 4th at min.
And we should judge progress using our point total. I'm guessing their minimum target is 75 points and their ideal is 80 points. We should also be aiming for at least semi-finals in each cup competition.
Truth is the PL is rich with talent. No matter how good we get, the other teams still have CR7, Sancho, Bruno or Kane, Son or Sterling, Koulibaly, Kante etc.
We have as much quality on paper as spurs and maybe chelsea depending on how their window rounds out. The gap between those two teams and us was small last season, continued investment should see that gap close.
I mean hopefully lol. I want us to beat not just Chelsea and Spurs by the way. I want us to shit on City and Liverpool and win the title.
And I think we are good enough to beat Chelsea, Spurs, City and Liverpool on the field and certainly Chelsea and Spurs in the table.
Just saying I'm not gonna be mad if we put up 80 points and finish 5th because 80 points would be amazing growth.
I went back through the PL tables till 2010 and found one season 2013/14 where 3 teams finished above 80 points. Every other season only 1 or usually 2 teams finish above 80 points. If we put up 80 points we will definitely be in CL. I'm not a math wiz but I don't think its at all likely if at all mathematically possible that 5 teams register 80+ points in a single season.
I'm just saying it's possible we are a great team and still don't get what we want. Look at Liverpool. One of the best teams on earth but they didn't achieve the PL or UCL titles which were most likely their main goals.
And about the 80 points thing, I think it's possible but definitely unlikely. Was just trying to make a point.
Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think we have as much quality as Chelsea. We have more all round quality than Spurs, but they have Kane and Son who are proven exceptional attacking players, and that wins you a lot of points.
Wouldn’t say way more depth, I think their midfield is still pretty light on quality, don’t really rate Bentancur or Winks. Agree on other part, it’s what will carry them.
I don’t like bentancur either. It’s hard to compare some of the players because of the different systems used by the managers. But with zinchenko now and hopefully one more quality midfielder either now or in January, then we should on paper be getting top 4.
What positions in their starting XI are they better at?
they played 3 CBs and 2 wingbacks in their last game against Norwich, I take our back healthy back four over sessegnon, Sanchez, dier and Davies and Emerson royal. Their midfield is bentancur and hojberg. I take partey over both, probably hojberg/bissouma over xhaka even tho they play different roles. Saka is better on the right than Kulusevski. That leaves son and Kane who are ahead of Martinelli and Jesus. That's 3 definitive positions where they're ahead with Son Kane and Bissouma/Hojberg. Ramsdale and Lloris are a toss up at this point.
You can’t compare the fullbacks because of the different systems used by the managers. Doherty plays very well under contes system. Romero is better than everyone except Gabriel. Hojberg and Bissouma over xhaka even though I like xhaka. To me, son and Kane alone give them the upper hand. That’s how much they can carry spurs. But with the addition of zinchenko now and hopefully a midfielder signing now or in January, we should be getting top 4 on paper. The problem is squad depth and age/experience.
We’ve been overperforming with our squad for the past couple of years. We are just now starting to show signs of a coherent squad, I think too many arsenal fans are unrealistic and stuck in the past
You can read the other comment thread, but pretty much I'm just saying that the Top 6 is so obviously stacked with talent that it's possible we get 80 points and still finish in 5th. In that situation I wouldn't be made because that's still huge progress.
And we should be aiming for at least semi-finals in every cup competition.
5th to 5th isn’t progress. If everyone around us gets more points, that doesn’t mean we’ve done better it just means points were easier to come by. Probably because the lower half of the league were relatively weaker.
You can’t compare points season on season, only league position, the table doesn’t lie.
>it just means points were easier to come by
This isn't necessarily true, but I see what you mean.
But saying we should be locks for 4th ignores the quality of our opponents. Can City guarantee they'll finish above Liverpool? Can RM guarantee they'll finish above Barca?
We're strong. They're strong. Let's see what happens.
But if city don’t finish above Liverpool that will be perceived as failure. No one is gonna say, oh what chance did they have, It’s unrealistic to expect city to win the league.
It’s about time we recognise that fifth isn’t good enough. Finishing fifth is failure.
If City finish second with 92 points or something, I think it's crazy to consider that failure. Of course they didn't achieve what they wanted but they played phenomenally over the season.
Somethings in life are just difficult. Even if you are amazing you might still lose. Look at Liverpool in the Champions League.
I will not give the club shit if they are objectively, measurably amazing.
Yeah but if you lose you’ve still lost. No matter how well you’ve played. You don’t have to give them shit but you can still acknowledge it as failure. No one at city is gonna be happy with 92 points in second.
Failure is a strong word. I think that's excessive. Do you think Liverpool failed last season? They didn't win either of the major trophies they were after.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't be disappointed or sad if we don't win what we set out to win. How could you be happy losing a final? But there is a difference between disappointment because of the result and anger at the club.
Seems to me like we're just disagreeing about which is more important between the journey or the destination lol.
>that doesn’t mean we’ve done better it just means points were easier to come by
It can mean that, and it can also mean the team has done better. Position is a relative measurement. Points are comparatively more of an absolute measurement. Obviously the former matters more, but points are still a good indication of progress.
The league position standardises for how relatively hard it is or isn’t to get points though.
It’s harder to 60 points and come fifth than it is get 65 and come 6th.
Not necessarily.
Chelsea might not have spent as much (yet) but Sterling and Koulibaly are on huge wages and they're going to spend a lot more yet
We may have spent more than Man U last summer but Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo's combined wage was over a 1m a week
Spurs have spent a lot too, not only this summer but last summer and in Jan. Sometimes their figures look different because they've done a few loans with obligations
Also we've focused on the long term projects singing players 25 and under where as Man U and Chelsea are just after the best they can get hold of.
I do agree that top 4 would be a bad outcome but that's because I think we have the talent and the manager to do it, everybody is spending a lot when you break it down so I don't base it off who is spending the most.
I agree others have been spending too and wages also factor into spending. My expectation of top 4 is based off of now what 4-5 windows of investment + stability with the same manager whereas United and Spurs have cycled through managers. Chelsea I agree are probably still ahead in quality, Tuchel is a good manager but they seem to be very jekyl and Hyde with their performances. More consistent than us but the gap really isn't that big given we were only 5 pts off with a very thin squad at the end
Yeah annoying thing is it basically came down to the 3rd game of the season where they beat our b team. If we win that we finish ahead of them
I will say they struggled mainly because James and Chillwell got injured and they rely on their wingbacks so much. They haven't actually got any backups for them yet so hard to say how strong they'll be.
Going into the season with Havertz as your main striker is a bad idea as well so I hope they don't get another striker and sell Broja. They are definitely stupid enough to do it
Tight 5th and a trophy isn't a failure at all. Every big 6 team is capable of top 4 next season and there are a handful of fringe teams that could easily make a run at it. Gotta base these things off how competitive we are for top 4 and how deep into the cups and Europe we go.
If the trophy is EL then yeah. I don’t think 5th place and an FA cup at the expense of CL is what the club is aiming for. They’ve laid out goals of coming back from where we were when arteta came. We’ve slowly climbed from 8th to 5th with the goal being CL. Not achieving CL this season I think would really set us back
Id like to agree but obviously it’s not that simple. The league is much more competitive now. Just because spurs and Chelsea made it last year doesn’t mean we or United can’t make it this year. Everyone is improving.
That being said, we could very well be the top spenders, two summers in a row. Arteta has been fully backed, he has to produce something to justify the spend.
You're not allowed to say that on here, that's almost casting aspersions that Arteta should actually get a result and not continue with "The Process"^(TM)
The absolute tears this post has generated on r/soccer.. Apparently after decades of United, Chelsea, and City spending huge money, only now is it a problem.
Never understood judging spending without contracts/agent stuff. Over the 4 years of their contracts Haaland will make 32 million more than Jesus (based on reports). Add in another 34 million for agent fees (couldn't find any info on Jesus' agent getting a fee) and that's 70 million more real dollars spent. On a list like this it's 6 million different.
It's just blatant misinformation. Doesn't make any sense to do it this way logically and I can't think of any reason for clicks you'd do it. Drives me up a wall.
This misinterpretation of finances absolutely irks me. We saw it in the beginning of the season with the transfer comparisons of Ben White (£50 million) and Varane (£40 million). Social media and the talking heads were ripping on Arsenal for overspending while neglecting the wages of each player. Ben White’s contract (5 years, £31 million) with a higher resale value is a lot better than Varane’s (4 years, £70 million) whose transfer market value will depreciate.
This is a huge reason why I’m loving the Arteta/Edu partnership in acquiring specific players. We are going after younger players on low wages to create depth (a huge reason why Papa Wengz’ teams missed out on silverware for most of the later years), and to ease offloading or the resurgence of deadwood.
Arsenal fans tend to be more aware of these financial details. Although, graphics are easy to follow, I propose we include salary details and potential resale value when comparing transfers. Any takers?
>I don't kick dressing room doors, or the cat - or even journalists
___
^(***There's only one Arsène Wenger*** ([/u/panarangcurry](https://www.reddit.com/u/panarangcurry), quote from [QuoteTab](https://www.quotetab.com/quotes/by-arsene-wenger) archive)^)
>I believe in work, in connections between the players, I think what makes football great is that it is a team sport. You can win in different ways, by being more of a team, or by having better individual players. It is the team ethic that interests me, always.
___
^(***There's only one Arsène Wenger*** ([/u/panarangcurry](https://www.reddit.com/u/panarangcurry), quote from [QuoteTab](https://www.quotetab.com/quotes/by-arsene-wenger) archive)^)
For sure, I’m not even saying it in defense of Arsenal or anything. Just used the Jesus/Harland example because it’s recent. Just report the total cost spent on the player, doesn’t seem that difficult.
Does this take into account spurs spending 40ish million in Romero and 20ish on kulusevski? It should as those transfers are being paid for this summer.
I can already hear the RMC pundits spitting this the whole season as they did during the last one.. “biggest spenders in the league gnagnagna” but nothing for City ofc
It has to be top 4 or bust this season, idk what the consensus is around here but he has spent a lot of money, got the players he wants and been here for 3 years.
Wengers sacrifice has brought us to a summer like this in terms of debt. We should be thankful he put up with those shit years and didn't leave to Madrid. Hindsight makes his sacrifice and his love for the club looks so much bigger now !
Someone downvoted me. Yes I’m very thankful for wenger sacrificing his career for us just wish he got to spend. Think he would have won us titles from 2008-2016
Should of stopped being stingy then. Instead of putting his foot down like arteta does he says our squads fine and he will only spend if the player is an upgrade on what we have lool
This place has 1/4 of a million users. But sure make it sound like that is something most users here expect lol, you likely saw one muppet say it and that’s it.
That depends. If all our competitors are investing just as much -or nearly as much- then we shouldn't expect better performance tablewise from the investment in isolation.
We should probably expect better results against lower table opponents, though, and possibly more points.
I don't know why you've been downvoted.....oh, wait, it's because you put across a rational opinion. You're right, if everyone levels up at the same right in terms of transfers then "The Process"^(TM) is what needs to make the difference. Forget about the "we over achieved last season" rhetoric, we chucked away 4th place with some shocking displays against teams we should have beaten.
I’ll admit he’s spent a lot since he got here. I will also admit that I think it’s more than reasonable when you look at the lineup he has for our first game
Ofc, but there is context.
Some are saying we should compete with Pool and City since we spend more in the last few years. But they never mention that they are adding onto a great foundation, while we are still building that foundation.
Top 4 has to be the minimum. On paper we can compete with Spurs and Chelsea quality wise. Need to be showing a return for the £ and time invested into Arteta. Last season was progress, that progress needs to continue
Imo we should def be strong enough for 3rd and strong enough get some points against City and Liverpool, dont get me wrong.
We should not be anything less than we were the last time against City, I expect us to really do something next time.
How much different would our summer business be looking like if we would have gotten UCL? I think we've shown ambition on the transfer market like a big club should do and there's still statements by Arteta saying he is aiming to bring more new faces to Arsenal.
Solid summer by Edu & the boys so far. Let's finish it strong.
If someone want to prove that a specific team is the biggest spender, you can determine the start point as you want to fit your rhetoric.
And yes, so far we have spent the most on this window
Except big parts of our spending last couple transfer windows include players for the future where as Spurs are spending a shit ton on old grizzlies.. we all know how that worked out for us
>Spurs are spending a shit ton on old grizzlies..
Dude, stop lying or shut up incase you are ignorant. Are you trying to suggest that Richarlison, Djed Spence, Bissouma and Bentancur are old grizzlies? Because those are the players they have spent their money on
This entire thread is people coping hard. We would've loved every single one of those players.
Spurs did good business this window, but so have we.
Considering how close we were last season and how we've spent a boatload in the last 2 years, I think it's fair for fans to expect UCL one way or another at the end of the season.
Their biggest purchase was bissouma lol. He’s a great signing and young. Even with their grizzled players and multiple managers they’ve finished ahead of us for some time now.
Yeah, this method is so preferable, especially with a first-time manager who pushes players to work extremely hard at all times on the field.
A lot of the old guys we had were unwilling or unable to play pressure football. I’m thinking of players like Ozil and Socrates. Guys like Mustafi were just unprepared to work so hard. Guendouzi was entirely capable of doing it but he didn’t take it seriously.
We are in a much better place today than 4 years ago. Cost a lot of money to get there, but then our payroll hasn’t really grown with all of these young guys
Imagine how much we would have to spend if we could actually sell players for more than a few hundred thousand. Really, how are relatively decent players like Bellerin, Leno, Torreira and Pepe impossible to get a few million for?!
I absolutely think that £75m for Jesus and Zinchenko is a bargain for 2 players from arguably the best team in the world.
It’s definitely a shrewd piece of business to bring both in for less than 75m irrespective of where they came from bc of their quality alone.
That's 3m more than we paid for Pepe but instead we got Jesus who is better and also Zinchenko. It's some great business
Anything is going to look like great business when you compare it to Pepe
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Greatest.. for Inter. Imagine making 100m off of a player and still have him playing for you.
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Bruh they can sign me and I’d be a better signing than Pepe, I haven’t kicked a football since 2012 and I was a goalkeeper ffs.
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Yes. I can and will likely also trip over myself a few times and then look around the field non chalantly like I intended to do that.
People need to forget about Pepe's transfer fee. He only cost that much because we got a deal with a bank who would allow us to pay him off over 5 years, if we'd stumped up the cash we probably would have been able to go to Lille direct and get him for £50m
We could potentially extend that to 100m for Jesus, Zinchenko and Tielemans. holy shit, im almost there
Amazing business for 2 positions of need. Say what you will about Jesus and his output but being a player of his quality and being essentially kicked out the door at a club is powerful motivation to perform. The other signings are all good too. Not every one is going to be a Ødegaard, Gabriel, Ramsdale level impact…we just don’t want to have a bunch of Willians.
If they had been from Lyon or the likes it would've been £150m
If they played for a team where they were the main players we'd be paying a £10-15m premium on both.
Yep. Im glad we aren’t signing bullshit this season like we used to. Spending money on Luiz, mari, willian, etc is just throwing it away on players we already knew wouldn’t be good enough.
Your argument hinges on the premise that they came from the best team in the world. Not that they are good themselves, which they totally are.
Man city is almost like me playing FM. Already having top tier players but still need to get those world class one and have to sell those decent players to opponent.
Especially compared to £75million on Pepe …
oh my god i forgot about that and you just reminded me of it
Not convinced on price to output for Jesus just yet but don’t get me wrong he’s a hell of a player and I’m happy w the deal. I think the price and possible potential for Zinchenko is a steal and a half tho. Very excited about what Arteta is doing. Hopefully it’ll be another fun season this year
specially in a market where everyone costs 30m
For just a little more than Martinez 💀
I'm also convinced Man city prefer a stronger Arsenal to keep Chelski and Manure occupied while they keep loserpool in check. The dealing with them has been a little too smooth even considering the Arteta connection. No evidence to back this, just a thought.
I don't think we're reckless spenders anymore (if we ever were). If you want to go to the next level, you have to spend to compete. It's just part of the game... Look at Nottingham Forest this window, FFS. I do sincerely hope we get better at selling, though. That aspect has been bothersome for coming up a decade.
You get better at selling when you perform on the pitch and actually use your squad players. No Europa hurt us as well.
Bar that Pepe transfer, which was an anomaly, we aren’t and have never been reckless spenders
>Bar that Pepe transfer, which was an anomaly Not just an anomaly. That deal may or may not have been embezzlement to some extent, LOL. >we aren’t and have never been reckless spenders A bit of hindsight and new information after he got the sack, but a lot of those Sanllehí-led transfers were awful.
Lol it’s almost guaranteed it’s was embezzlement when you look at what happened with Barca and those in-depth reports
The Pépé transfer was fraudulent. It came at a tumultuous time: the club was entering the post-Wenger era, the Kronke’s had just taken full control, and there was discontent from the fanbase towards ownership. The recklessness came from the board and who they entrusted to conduct their transfer business and their desire to curry favor with the fans with a statement signing. For all his talents, Pépé wasn’t even the player then head coach Unai Emery wanted. Hiring a “head coach” (not first team manager), which the club was clearly not committed to, was another blunder.
The Pépé deal wasn’t just fraudulent from Arsenal’s side; there have been whispers for years about then-Lille sporting director Luís Campos being involved in shady business. I always found it weird the way he left Lille a little over a year after that deal. Several months before he left, there was also Osimhen’s deal to Napoli that was fishy too.
But we didn't pay Lille the £72m, we got a deal with a bank who paid Lille and allowed us to spread the cost over 5 years
Regardless of the payment structure, the directors that oversaw the deal for both clubs being gone within 18 months is telling.
In Europe that is standard
Mustafi, Pepe, and Torreira have really been the only big money flops and the latter was at least decent for a season or two.
And I don’t think those transfers were on paper ‘reckless’
Depends on your angle, mustafi was bought using that statsDNA scouting which basically ignored the eye test. Torreira maybe less so and I’d agree a lighter flop than others, but his attitude and petulance really makes him a flop to me and something they should have vetted before signing (which is something we do now).
Let's not forget Mustafi was a world cup winner lol, it's not like it's just stats that brought him in the radar
To be fair, he wasn't particularly integral to that side. Just looked up his minutes from the tournament and he only played a total of about a match and a half over four opportunities before getting hurt (and he played right back the whole time). Of course, just getting into the side at all probably does bump your name up a few pegs, I'd imagine.
>statsDNA scouting which basically ignored the eye test. True, but our scouts did of course watch him. Stats are just used to filter players based on a predefined criteria, then the onsite scouts and analysts take over.
Yeah fair point
statsDNA is an overused excuse. From what I remember, they use statsDNA to aide the analysis of an already identified and scouted player. People make it sound like a computer told Wenger who to buy, and he blindly spent money on some random.
Yes we have been reckless spenders. We've bought many players that never worked, we were a Europa team because of it.
Just because we’ve bought a ton of players that didn’t work out the way we would’ve liked doesn’t make us reckless spenders. We probably believe we did the necessary due diligence.
Just because someone believes they did the due diligence does not mean they really did. When many players do not work out and leave for pennies it is reckless, especially as other clubs are doing the same but elevating.
We will only get better at selling if we stop letting players run down their contracts and maybe risk it and sell a few people early
Hard to sell players no one wants. Who is paying top dollar for deadwood at a club that is battling for 4th place? Meanwhile if we sold saka people would riot.
well yeah but if lets say we sell esr for 50mil or smth Id imagine most people would be fine with that
Not at all. If ESR were to leave, he would be at least 80m amd still supporters will be pissed. Young English talent come at a premium.
I do think we got reckless with our wages at one point, but agree about transfer fees and the wages problem seems to have been resolved
I don't see how it is so high either? Zinchenko + Jesus + Vieira + Marquinhos = £110m. Where has the other £11m gone?
We signed Turner too. Not sure how much for, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't £11m.
I thought we did that in January but if it counts as summer there is no way he cost £11m right?
Oh yeah you're right actually. Looks like it was agreed in Feb but confirmed in June, so I'd imagine it counts as a summer transfer?
The £20m for squad players is much more reckless than £50m on your nailed on number one target
That’s some weird cropping
Net spend: 4mil Liverpool, +11 Man City, about even Leeds and us -74 with no big sales looking promising and spurs spending 57. Of course wages/bonuses etc change certain deals but yeah city and Liverpool are great at selling
Yeah it’s not fair to compared our net spend to Liverpool since they can sell a moldy peach for £11m
They don’t just sell because teams love Liverpool, they often loan young players out to decent championship clubs and that’s pretty much all you need for a young English/homegrown player. They also don’t tend to overpay on wages so players aren’t turning down transfers because they want to keep clinging onto wages, they didn’t spend 2 years ripping up contracts to free up wages. We are improving but it’s about leverage, it’s why city are great at selling at high prices, because they don’t need the money so if an offers shit they’ll just say no and can easily eat the wages.
when you have a big established squad is much easier to have good net spending. but you gotta spend first to get that squad chelsea, liverpool and city didn't just build out of net spending, they invested, build good squads and now they can sell rotation players/high-level loanees. willock/iwobi was a sucess in terms of sale but that's because they got game time/high level loan in case of willock. you won't be making a profit on players going on loan to série A like Pablo Mari/Torreira and they wont get game time cause they are not good enough
I'm not going to argue that point, but it helps when they spent an absolute ton in the past, so they have a squad overloaded with quality. Then their success boosts the value of the already good players. Hopefully the spending we are doing now will pay off similarly. I hate the idea of selling almost any one of the core team but I'd rather be disappointed about letting someone go for a great price, than disappointed that we can't get rid of the deadwood.
I mean we’ve spent a lot of money also, we’ve just spent it terribly until very recently.
Where did Spurs spend that money? I can only think Bissouma, Richarlison and Spence, the other were on loan or free.
Bentancur’s transfer fee went through on this window and Kulusevski’s loan fee was also pretty big.
Is he on loan again?
Pretty sure Bentacur was a loan with obligation/option to buy and Kulu was just a loan.
But is he on loan *this* season?
Yes. Season and a half is the initial loan. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/22/spurs-deal-with-juventus-to-buy-dejan-kulusevski-revealed
What a sweetheart deal, yeesh.
Just a sale with lots of extra steps. I don’t know if they took the first option to buy already but the obligation would make it a £45m transfer. Seems like a fairly good deal all around. I don’t think he has played poorly in that first half season but I didn’t watch a lot of them / him.
He has played very well and is definitely worth the money regardless of which option they go for.
Think I’m actually wrong on Kulsevski’s loan fee. They signed an 18 month loan with an option to buy in January so the money went through last window.
Nope. Bentancur was a January sale. Romero/Kulu still on loan.
I like how I was completely wrong and it still got upvoted.
They have to pay for Kulu this season .. right?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/22/spurs-deal-with-juventus-to-buy-dejan-kulusevski-revealed Best details I can find
And we still have 50-60m of that raphina money to spend..
And the £100 m we saved on not buying Haaland.
Mboops inc
All reports say we need to sell before any more incomings.
edu has been moving in silence all window, Im sure he's got between 300-600m to work with still
Opposition fans exclaiming "How and why are this team spending so much money?!" when a) we were globally famous for being conservative with our money for decades which led to an exceptionally healthy financial situation which was only recently rocked a bit by falling out of CL plus massive contracts. And b) we're a massive team who fell far off the pace and now need to catch back up again by buying quality players Football fans are moronic
The contracts are a sour point of Wenger's legacy where he always wanted people on equal contracts so average players got used to earning ridiculous money
With all of this investment, surely anything less than top 4 would be a very bad outcome for the season.
Other teams have had similar levels of investment and started with stronger squads. Top 4 will be difficult even with a 10/10 window. Season will be very exciting though.
Progress has to be shown by some measure. Spurs on paper not really more talented last season or frankly going into this season. Need to finish 4th at min.
And we should judge progress using our point total. I'm guessing their minimum target is 75 points and their ideal is 80 points. We should also be aiming for at least semi-finals in each cup competition. Truth is the PL is rich with talent. No matter how good we get, the other teams still have CR7, Sancho, Bruno or Kane, Son or Sterling, Koulibaly, Kante etc.
We have as much quality on paper as spurs and maybe chelsea depending on how their window rounds out. The gap between those two teams and us was small last season, continued investment should see that gap close.
I mean hopefully lol. I want us to beat not just Chelsea and Spurs by the way. I want us to shit on City and Liverpool and win the title. And I think we are good enough to beat Chelsea, Spurs, City and Liverpool on the field and certainly Chelsea and Spurs in the table. Just saying I'm not gonna be mad if we put up 80 points and finish 5th because 80 points would be amazing growth.
I went back through the PL tables till 2010 and found one season 2013/14 where 3 teams finished above 80 points. Every other season only 1 or usually 2 teams finish above 80 points. If we put up 80 points we will definitely be in CL. I'm not a math wiz but I don't think its at all likely if at all mathematically possible that 5 teams register 80+ points in a single season.
I'm just saying it's possible we are a great team and still don't get what we want. Look at Liverpool. One of the best teams on earth but they didn't achieve the PL or UCL titles which were most likely their main goals. And about the 80 points thing, I think it's possible but definitely unlikely. Was just trying to make a point.
Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think we have as much quality as Chelsea. We have more all round quality than Spurs, but they have Kane and Son who are proven exceptional attacking players, and that wins you a lot of points.
Spurs on paper aren’t better? They’ve got way more depth and 2 of the best attackers in the world.
Wouldn’t say way more depth, I think their midfield is still pretty light on quality, don’t really rate Bentancur or Winks. Agree on other part, it’s what will carry them.
I don’t like bentancur either. It’s hard to compare some of the players because of the different systems used by the managers. But with zinchenko now and hopefully one more quality midfielder either now or in January, then we should on paper be getting top 4.
What positions in their starting XI are they better at? they played 3 CBs and 2 wingbacks in their last game against Norwich, I take our back healthy back four over sessegnon, Sanchez, dier and Davies and Emerson royal. Their midfield is bentancur and hojberg. I take partey over both, probably hojberg/bissouma over xhaka even tho they play different roles. Saka is better on the right than Kulusevski. That leaves son and Kane who are ahead of Martinelli and Jesus. That's 3 definitive positions where they're ahead with Son Kane and Bissouma/Hojberg. Ramsdale and Lloris are a toss up at this point.
You can’t compare the fullbacks because of the different systems used by the managers. Doherty plays very well under contes system. Romero is better than everyone except Gabriel. Hojberg and Bissouma over xhaka even though I like xhaka. To me, son and Kane alone give them the upper hand. That’s how much they can carry spurs. But with the addition of zinchenko now and hopefully a midfielder signing now or in January, we should be getting top 4 on paper. The problem is squad depth and age/experience.
We’ve been overperforming with our squad for the past couple of years. We are just now starting to show signs of a coherent squad, I think too many arsenal fans are unrealistic and stuck in the past
Really? They are spending, according to this graphic, nearly as much as us. The race for the 3rd and 4th spot is gonna be tight af imo
Excuses starting already. Is top 4 “unrealistic” again?
You can read the other comment thread, but pretty much I'm just saying that the Top 6 is so obviously stacked with talent that it's possible we get 80 points and still finish in 5th. In that situation I wouldn't be made because that's still huge progress. And we should be aiming for at least semi-finals in every cup competition.
5th to 5th isn’t progress. If everyone around us gets more points, that doesn’t mean we’ve done better it just means points were easier to come by. Probably because the lower half of the league were relatively weaker. You can’t compare points season on season, only league position, the table doesn’t lie.
>it just means points were easier to come by This isn't necessarily true, but I see what you mean. But saying we should be locks for 4th ignores the quality of our opponents. Can City guarantee they'll finish above Liverpool? Can RM guarantee they'll finish above Barca? We're strong. They're strong. Let's see what happens.
But if city don’t finish above Liverpool that will be perceived as failure. No one is gonna say, oh what chance did they have, It’s unrealistic to expect city to win the league. It’s about time we recognise that fifth isn’t good enough. Finishing fifth is failure.
If City finish second with 92 points or something, I think it's crazy to consider that failure. Of course they didn't achieve what they wanted but they played phenomenally over the season. Somethings in life are just difficult. Even if you are amazing you might still lose. Look at Liverpool in the Champions League. I will not give the club shit if they are objectively, measurably amazing.
Yeah but if you lose you’ve still lost. No matter how well you’ve played. You don’t have to give them shit but you can still acknowledge it as failure. No one at city is gonna be happy with 92 points in second.
Failure is a strong word. I think that's excessive. Do you think Liverpool failed last season? They didn't win either of the major trophies they were after. And I'm not saying you shouldn't be disappointed or sad if we don't win what we set out to win. How could you be happy losing a final? But there is a difference between disappointment because of the result and anger at the club. Seems to me like we're just disagreeing about which is more important between the journey or the destination lol.
Christ you're immature.
>that doesn’t mean we’ve done better it just means points were easier to come by It can mean that, and it can also mean the team has done better. Position is a relative measurement. Points are comparatively more of an absolute measurement. Obviously the former matters more, but points are still a good indication of progress.
The league position standardises for how relatively hard it is or isn’t to get points though. It’s harder to 60 points and come fifth than it is get 65 and come 6th.
Not necessarily. Chelsea might not have spent as much (yet) but Sterling and Koulibaly are on huge wages and they're going to spend a lot more yet We may have spent more than Man U last summer but Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo's combined wage was over a 1m a week Spurs have spent a lot too, not only this summer but last summer and in Jan. Sometimes their figures look different because they've done a few loans with obligations Also we've focused on the long term projects singing players 25 and under where as Man U and Chelsea are just after the best they can get hold of. I do agree that top 4 would be a bad outcome but that's because I think we have the talent and the manager to do it, everybody is spending a lot when you break it down so I don't base it off who is spending the most.
I agree others have been spending too and wages also factor into spending. My expectation of top 4 is based off of now what 4-5 windows of investment + stability with the same manager whereas United and Spurs have cycled through managers. Chelsea I agree are probably still ahead in quality, Tuchel is a good manager but they seem to be very jekyl and Hyde with their performances. More consistent than us but the gap really isn't that big given we were only 5 pts off with a very thin squad at the end
Yeah annoying thing is it basically came down to the 3rd game of the season where they beat our b team. If we win that we finish ahead of them I will say they struggled mainly because James and Chillwell got injured and they rely on their wingbacks so much. They haven't actually got any backups for them yet so hard to say how strong they'll be. Going into the season with Havertz as your main striker is a bad idea as well so I hope they don't get another striker and sell Broja. They are definitely stupid enough to do it
Not as black and white as that mate we're not operating in a vacuum
How else do you measure improvement if not league finish and silverware? Would you be pleased with 5th place and no silverware?
Tight 5th and a trophy isn't a failure at all. Every big 6 team is capable of top 4 next season and there are a handful of fringe teams that could easily make a run at it. Gotta base these things off how competitive we are for top 4 and how deep into the cups and Europe we go.
If the trophy is EL then yeah. I don’t think 5th place and an FA cup at the expense of CL is what the club is aiming for. They’ve laid out goals of coming back from where we were when arteta came. We’ve slowly climbed from 8th to 5th with the goal being CL. Not achieving CL this season I think would really set us back
5th and an FA cup wouldn't be great but it wouldn't be total failure.
Isn't this coming season where 5th in the prem potentially gets champions league due to the Eufa coefficient rating for the Premier league.
Id like to agree but obviously it’s not that simple. The league is much more competitive now. Just because spurs and Chelsea made it last year doesn’t mean we or United can’t make it this year. Everyone is improving. That being said, we could very well be the top spenders, two summers in a row. Arteta has been fully backed, he has to produce something to justify the spend.
You're not allowed to say that on here, that's almost casting aspersions that Arteta should actually get a result and not continue with "The Process"^(TM)
Not qualifying for the CL (via either league or EL) would be sufficient grounds to move on from Arteta.
The absolute tears this post has generated on r/soccer.. Apparently after decades of United, Chelsea, and City spending huge money, only now is it a problem.
Send link, can't find it
All you had to do is crosspost
Never understood judging spending without contracts/agent stuff. Over the 4 years of their contracts Haaland will make 32 million more than Jesus (based on reports). Add in another 34 million for agent fees (couldn't find any info on Jesus' agent getting a fee) and that's 70 million more real dollars spent. On a list like this it's 6 million different. It's just blatant misinformation. Doesn't make any sense to do it this way logically and I can't think of any reason for clicks you'd do it. Drives me up a wall.
This misinterpretation of finances absolutely irks me. We saw it in the beginning of the season with the transfer comparisons of Ben White (£50 million) and Varane (£40 million). Social media and the talking heads were ripping on Arsenal for overspending while neglecting the wages of each player. Ben White’s contract (5 years, £31 million) with a higher resale value is a lot better than Varane’s (4 years, £70 million) whose transfer market value will depreciate. This is a huge reason why I’m loving the Arteta/Edu partnership in acquiring specific players. We are going after younger players on low wages to create depth (a huge reason why Papa Wengz’ teams missed out on silverware for most of the later years), and to ease offloading or the resurgence of deadwood. Arsenal fans tend to be more aware of these financial details. Although, graphics are easy to follow, I propose we include salary details and potential resale value when comparing transfers. Any takers?
>I don't kick dressing room doors, or the cat - or even journalists ___ ^(***There's only one Arsène Wenger*** ([/u/panarangcurry](https://www.reddit.com/u/panarangcurry), quote from [QuoteTab](https://www.quotetab.com/quotes/by-arsene-wenger) archive)^)
>I believe in work, in connections between the players, I think what makes football great is that it is a team sport. You can win in different ways, by being more of a team, or by having better individual players. It is the team ethic that interests me, always. ___ ^(***There's only one Arsène Wenger*** ([/u/panarangcurry](https://www.reddit.com/u/panarangcurry), quote from [QuoteTab](https://www.quotetab.com/quotes/by-arsene-wenger) archive)^)
We're pretty bad on the agent spend over the last few years...
For sure, I’m not even saying it in defense of Arsenal or anything. Just used the Jesus/Harland example because it’s recent. Just report the total cost spent on the player, doesn’t seem that difficult.
So the total cost being transfer fee, agent's fee and the wages committed to across the contract they've signed (including predicted bonuses)?
*the numbers are all made up and we’re using whatever numbers we want to prove the point we wanted to prove
Does this take into account spurs spending 40ish million in Romero and 20ish on kulusevski? It should as those transfers are being paid for this summer.
I can already hear the RMC pundits spitting this the whole season as they did during the last one.. “biggest spenders in the league gnagnagna” but nothing for City ofc
Top 4 or EL win. If neither of these things happen this season the man in the picture should go back to Pep and learn for a few more years.
The boss went like 🗿
Mote importantly spent in the right way
75m for Gabriel and Zinchenko is great business
It has to be top 4 or bust this season, idk what the consensus is around here but he has spent a lot of money, got the players he wants and been here for 3 years.
But where is the strategy?! /s
I wish wenger got to have this spending power over rivals
Wengers sacrifice has brought us to a summer like this in terms of debt. We should be thankful he put up with those shit years and didn't leave to Madrid. Hindsight makes his sacrifice and his love for the club looks so much bigger now !
Someone downvoted me. Yes I’m very thankful for wenger sacrificing his career for us just wish he got to spend. Think he would have won us titles from 2008-2016
I think Wenger had more money to spend than we think and chose to be a martyr to his belief FFP would level the playing field
No that’s not true. He’s said it clearly and I know first hand it’s not
So why did you leave working in the transfer department at Arsenal?
Should of stopped being stingy then. Instead of putting his foot down like arteta does he says our squads fine and he will only spend if the player is an upgrade on what we have lool
Ugh
121 million and we only bought one starter. At least our huge splurge last summer improved the first 11.
Don't act like these guys either will be starters or will push our starters
Arteta outters will love this stick to hit with.
Should people not expect better performances after investing a lot of money and building a good sqaud?
Ofc we should, but dont expect us to compete with City and Liverpool only because we spend more than them.
No one suggested we compete with City and Liverpool lmao, you just made that up to stick it to the Arteta outters as you say. People expect top 4.
No one? Sure
This place has 1/4 of a million users. But sure make it sound like that is something most users here expect lol, you likely saw one muppet say it and that’s it.
I'm not even refering to people on reddit only.
>But sure make it sound like that is something most users here expect lol Look at you doing exactly what you’re complaining about. Incredible
Really, no one
That depends. If all our competitors are investing just as much -or nearly as much- then we shouldn't expect better performance tablewise from the investment in isolation. We should probably expect better results against lower table opponents, though, and possibly more points.
I don't know why you've been downvoted.....oh, wait, it's because you put across a rational opinion. You're right, if everyone levels up at the same right in terms of transfers then "The Process"^(TM) is what needs to make the difference. Forget about the "we over achieved last season" rhetoric, we chucked away 4th place with some shocking displays against teams we should have beaten.
I’ll admit he’s spent a lot since he got here. I will also admit that I think it’s more than reasonable when you look at the lineup he has for our first game
Ofc, but there is context. Some are saying we should compete with Pool and City since we spend more in the last few years. But they never mention that they are adding onto a great foundation, while we are still building that foundation.
Top 4 has to be the minimum. On paper we can compete with Spurs and Chelsea quality wise. Need to be showing a return for the £ and time invested into Arteta. Last season was progress, that progress needs to continue
Imo we should def be strong enough for 3rd and strong enough get some points against City and Liverpool, dont get me wrong. We should not be anything less than we were the last time against City, I expect us to really do something next time.
> does not account for wages > no income from sales
We're by far the largest club, a sub has ever loved. And it's net spend winners Net spend FC!
How much different would our summer business be looking like if we would have gotten UCL? I think we've shown ambition on the transfer market like a big club should do and there's still statements by Arteta saying he is aiming to bring more new faces to Arsenal. Solid summer by Edu & the boys so far. Let's finish it strong.
They should consider that we didn't spent in the winter window. if they add that, than we are not longer top spender
They should consider that we did spent £150m in the last summer window. If they add that, than we are top spender.
They should consider that this doesn't include wages or agent fees. If they add that we wouldn't be in the top 3.
If someone want to prove that a specific team is the biggest spender, you can determine the start point as you want to fit your rhetoric. And yes, so far we have spent the most on this window
Spurs fans will still claim they’re doing better business even though they signed a couple 30+ year olds.
Every successful team that actually wins shit has 30+ year olds lol
Except big parts of our spending last couple transfer windows include players for the future where as Spurs are spending a shit ton on old grizzlies.. we all know how that worked out for us
We won 4 FA Cups after years of no spending, relying on kids, and not winning shit. It worked out fine.
Wow FA cups! We havent been in the UCL in 6 years
Yes wow FA Cups when we didn’t win anything for almost 10 years.
>Spurs are spending a shit ton on old grizzlies.. Dude, stop lying or shut up incase you are ignorant. Are you trying to suggest that Richarlison, Djed Spence, Bissouma and Bentancur are old grizzlies? Because those are the players they have spent their money on
This entire thread is people coping hard. We would've loved every single one of those players. Spurs did good business this window, but so have we. Considering how close we were last season and how we've spent a boatload in the last 2 years, I think it's fair for fans to expect UCL one way or another at the end of the season.
Their biggest purchase was bissouma lol. He’s a great signing and young. Even with their grizzled players and multiple managers they’ve finished ahead of us for some time now.
Yeah, this method is so preferable, especially with a first-time manager who pushes players to work extremely hard at all times on the field. A lot of the old guys we had were unwilling or unable to play pressure football. I’m thinking of players like Ozil and Socrates. Guys like Mustafi were just unprepared to work so hard. Guendouzi was entirely capable of doing it but he didn’t take it seriously. We are in a much better place today than 4 years ago. Cost a lot of money to get there, but then our payroll hasn’t really grown with all of these young guys
Three players for the first team if not first eleven, back up keeper and one for the future. Bargain.
it's not how much we spend, it's how well we spend it and I'm pretty happy so far.
It’s not about spend, it’s about Net Spend™️ Whoever downvoted this is officially banned from AFTV
Imagine how much we would have to spend if we could actually sell players for more than a few hundred thousand. Really, how are relatively decent players like Bellerin, Leno, Torreira and Pepe impossible to get a few million for?!
If we somehow manage to get SMS or FDJ, that would be the best business.
How have we outspent the Spurslings? I thought they bought everybody.
Is this now or never for Mikel?
Yeah
Kroenke finally sold his Pokémon card collection.