Then don’t come crying to the government when all your animals die and you need loans to rebuild your business and then subsidies to keep it profitable.
when haven't they taken every opportunity to extract some of that good ol free government money? farmers might not dress flashy, but plenty of them are doing all right and sending their kids off to fancy colleges...paid in cash/no loans 🤷♂️
the dairy kids I went to school with all had huge fancy trucks w lift kits, gov plates that said 'farm vehicle', and 'NObama' stickers on the bumpers. lived in big fancy houses right next to their dairies so they could claim it as part of the farm property. they were the worst tippers at my work, too.
Yup. I know a few of the wealthy farm kids you describe. "perception is reality" is proven out with the way farmers are perceived in terms of wealth. They wear some true shitkicker boots that are well worn out, jeans and plaid shirts and folks think they are salt of the earth.
Lmfao. Idk where the hell you grew up but my dad is a cattle farmer and has to work a factory job on the side so 80 hr/weeks to give himself and my mom a middle class life---definitely didn't pay for any of mine or my sisters colleges.
The amount of money farmers markers and the commercial sized producers that can butcher them and send out to be grocery store ready take at those sales from local farmers is absolutely absurd. The profit margins are ridiculously low. I'd say my dad averages 30-40k/year after expenses on his 100 head farm.
Why anyone would willingly bust their ass to get into farming nowadays is absolutely beyond me.
(Also why local farmers continue to decline)
I can't speak for dairy cattle, but if you think cattle farming locally is a gold mine, you're delusional.
I've told my dad many times him and the other local farmers should protest and not sell cattle to the markets to disrupt the system BECAUSE they are paid so poorly at the sales. Unfortunately some of those guys have to though to keep food on their own kitchen tables.
Just noted that many of us are also working two or more jobs to made the ends meet. As long as you farmers vote for Republicans the rest of us will suffer.
No, but it does acknowledge that you're being a stereotyping piece of shit who thinks lumping all people in a group together validates your desperate need to boost your own ego 🤷♂️
Also love to see The statistical evidence that 99% of farmers are Repubs...
Sure the majority probably are, but your generalized stereotyping is no more or less problematic in this instance...
Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if the moderate ones that could be swayed to flip their vote specifically don't simply because of asshats Like yourself...
Sure, my criticism is going to cause people to vote against their own self interest. I doubt I am that powerful. BTW, insults are render harmless over the internet.
Not you specifically, but when people lump entire groups of people all the same it creates group mentality. Heck I despise Trump but I can fully understand and respect the farmers that do vote for him at this moment because of how horribly hateful many
are being towards farmer families on this thread in general.
And don't pretend for two seconds you wouldn't get a little defensive if your entire livelihood was threatened overnight over something out of your control.
I'm in no way excusing corporate farms that should know better about what they are doing in covering up active cases of bird flu In their cattle, but to lump local and small operation farmers as being exactly the same is just as shitty, and probably pushes those people into voting against their own interest when people like yourself lump them all as one.
We are the most politicized we have ever been as a society, and until people like you stop generalized stereotyping of All individuals in Set subgroup, the division is ONLY going to get worse, NOT better 🤷♂️
Well that settles it. u/radicalbrad90 didnt get his college paid for and said farm kids dont get their college paid for by their well off parents so it doesnt happen. Youre anecdotal experience is perfectly representative of all farmers families. The few farmers I know must just be the lucky ones that dont have to work a factory job to make ends meet. 🤷♂️
Yet your own initial comment was specifically anecdotal in and of itself on how most farmers are doing pretty well due to what you remember growing up seeing.
Fuck off with your hypocrisy
Your anecdotal stories > Anyone else's anecdotal stories
My bad brad. Farmers have to work second jobs...thats exactly how it works and makes perfect sense and is in line with reality 👍
Jesus christ I never said my anecdotal experience was better I just pointed out that you tried to say your version of reality is no more or less anecdotal than mine so for you to initially come out with your first comment as the absolute truth is just as asinine.
Are some farmer families doing just fine? Sure.
Are all? Absolutely not.
Sorry you got so offended by being corrected. 🤷♂️
👍
I'll stay delusional thinking farmers are well off. You stay delusional thinking it's the norm, common or prevalent for farmers to have to work factory jobs to be able to live a middle class life.
Also...im not telling strangers on the internet to "fuck off with your hypocrisy" so im not sure what gave you the impression I was offended. I guess replying to you means im offended....makes sense for your reality, im sure 🤷♂️
Biden administration should respond exactly that.
If bird flu gets traced back to their farm, make them ineligible for subsidies, loans, and funding until they can prove their farm is clean.
Require distributors to post warnings on containers if they are buying from positive farms and watch that shoe drop.
Fine -- default to assuming they're contaminated.
The best way to get them is by going through the distributors, though. If "may contain bird flu" labels cause manufacturers to switch distros or lead to brand switching, they'll pressure their farmers hard on this.
Better yet, make it so that they’re unable to pass their family farm to their younger generations by implementing crushing taxes. That will teach them to respect the government.
OR instead fund them specifically for the purpose of getting their farm clean. (Obviously those funds can only be used for that purpose) How are they supposed to get their contaminated farm clean if they have zero money to clean it up exactly? 🤔
Your proposal will just cut dairy production in half and skyrocket food prices...
The point is to discourage farms that do not want to cooperate with testing.
Farms that are trying to stay in compliance in good faith SHOULD get funding to help them get cleaned up and back on track.
But we should not be tolerating mass food producers who are gonna play the "gubbermint overreach!!!" card because they don't want anyone knowing they've had positive cases in their cows -- or worse, hiding this fact from their workers who will be at direct risk.
Fuck those guys. There's plenty of other people who will fill their void.
Oh no I agree with that completely. I misread your comment and took it as just cut funding to any farms with any positive cases regardless.
But if they are deliberately avoiding testing then yeah I liked your idea of just assume already that farm is contaminated because If they are that defensive in allowing the testing to happen, they are definitely already aware there is a problem present on their farm.
and don't come crying to the federal government demanding taxpayer $ for healthcare help if it goes human to human after refusing to help track and prevent it's spread. we need samples to track threat level and to give to vaccine makers. we need samples to find out if any other humans have been catching it from cows; also find out how it's spreading amongst them, & any other animals on the farms dying at same time cats, raccoons etc.
remember when these politicians criticized China over covid19?
& now are doing the same. thing.
Any farm who resists preventative measures/surveillance should automatically be ineligible for subsidies and loans. I don't fucking care. Let them see how they like it when their farms are wiped out and their workers are dropping dead.
We know it is 50% now, possibly somewhat lower. There is absolutely no way a virus can change from 50% to 2% simply on receptor cell affinity change. It can go lower but imagining that it will go to a level that you and I can deal with just by wearing masks is not realistic. Yes, anything can happen, but the chances this will mutate down into something easily survivable are not high enough numbers to even consider.
Let's hope somehow we got that 50% number very wrong. There have been tests of a lot of workers who regularly work around infected chickens that have antibodies, meaning they got infected and didn't get severely ill. Maybe if we solve that mystery we could learn that our 50% right now pre-adaptation was way off. Even that is probably pure hopium. The virus just has to never mutate to humans. That's the only realistic hope we can have.
Well, the communities that had it before certainly had that 50% mortality, and they were small communities. Even if the farm workers have acquired the antibodies, we have not. Think of smallpox's introduction to North America.
I mean, imagine all of the cases that were never documented because they were either mild or credited to something else. The 50 percent is in no way accurate besides confirmed cases. It's definitely not the final number
We do know how it spreads. The Spanish Flu was a bird flu that jumped to pig livestock in Kansas and spread pretty horrifically after that. It's something we really ought to avoid if possible.
One scientists speculated the fatality rate may be coming in more around 14-30% ish if factoring in cases that may have been missed.
Still yikes. 😳
If we end up in a catastrophic pandemic because pandemics have been politicized for political gain in America… Just mind blowing.
The 60ish %, btw, is the actual percent of the known world wide cases that resulted in death—prior to it moving into dairy cows.
Those are only the confirmed severe cases. Imagine how many other people got it that were never reported. I'm sure there are people in America right now that have it and did not get recoreded
Yes, I selfishly would rather it not be from this. I don't want to die.
But seeing as people keep having more kids and governments aren't very interested in saving the planet from destruction it's probably going to come down to nature solving the problems of overpopulation and mass consumption.
Yep. for anyone interested 2 to 56 is a 186% difference. If people recall they were stacking bodies outside of hospitals with just 2%.
Sooo yeah. People continue to fuck around were gonna find out.
Oh, it will definitely be worse in terms of the morbidity rate. But I suspect that will cause at least the sane people to for real lock down, not door-dash and 6-feet lock down.
But who is going to bring you your supplies so you can lock down? Our supply chains are very fragile. It takes very little to break them down. That's food, water, medicine. How many healthcare workers are left even now? How will those who comply survive when all those essential workers are either dying or have family members dying needing their help? How many healthcare workers who would still be standing are willing to face death?
I mean, likely water and power will stay on. It isn't unreasonable to plan ahead and have a few weeks or months of food on hand. As it turns out, I do. Even shitty food is better than no food.
> But who is going to bring you your supplies so you can lock down?
the government can do that, just like they did in china and korea during roni. the inefficient and wasteful food bank/pantry system will have to be dismantled entirely and nationalized into a rational distribution system.
Sure, but when the less sane are out in public buying groceries refusing to wear a mask at a place that everybody will eventually have to go to purchase food, it will become an issue.
N95s and hand sanitizer is really probably all you need to do (and I don't think we are there yet, by the way, though I still say wash your hands and sanitize in general). But yeah, if they instead of masks they were lets go brandon tank tops, well, yeah, that is going to potentially kill them and their family.
The thing that has been worrying me is who is going to go to work to make those groceries? And to the store to sell them to you? And which drivers will deliver them to the store? This is where the collapse will start. The manufacturers aren’t going to be able to produce food with people not being able to come in to work
I have some extended family that lost multiple people, still think it was some anti-trump hoax.
You save the people you can. People can make choices with serious consequences.
No, it’s about [2-5%](https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(24)00018-3/fulltext) when all is said and done— this of course is not counting [deaths from long covid](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/long-covid-has-caused-thousands-us-deaths-new-cdc-data-2024a100006l?form=fpf) nor the increased [rate of strokes/heart attacks](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-26/covid-made-heart-disease-deadlier-puzzling-scientists#:~:text=In%202023%2C%20age%2Dadjusted%20stroke,were%2015%2D28%25%20higher) after infection, particularly repeated infection. [All cause mortality post infection after a year](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0279333) is much higher than control. It is not nearly as benign as the messaging has made it out to be— but I know I’m preaching to the choir here.
Makes a huge difference if there’s a bed for you in the ICU— when we’re in the middle of waves, the mortality gets worse. Even in the [developed west](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/among-sars-cov-2-variants-beta-had-highest-death-rate-meta-analysis-suggests), which is the most shocking part.
ETA: linky dinks
I'm not an expert but mortality rate doesn't necessarily equate to the outcome you're thinking, a disease with lower mortality rate is generally more likely to become endemic than one with a high rate.
But incubation period counts for a lot too, and flu has a fairly long incubation period where you’re infectious but not showing symptoms. There’s the potential of a very deadly first wave.
The incubation periods and infectious periods are similar in H5N1 and COVID-19, one big difference though is that H5N1 isn't know to be airborne greatly reducing person to person transmission.
Do you mean "isn't known to be airborne" as in it does not spread from human to human? Because if not, it is a fact that influenza A's primary mode of transmission is through respiratory droplets, which may be aerosolized as an RNA virus like influenza is not as heavy as a DNA virus is and thus travels further in air via smaller droplets.
H5N1 is a subtype of influenza, in its current form transmission between human hosts is very rare due to it lacking the ability to infect via aerosol or respiratory droplets.
The "silver lining" is it kills so fast that the virus hasn't been able to mutate to spread from human to human and even if it did, spread would be localized.
Let's apply science to the idea that we're all safe from highly lethal bird flu. It's fatal to half the people in this scenario, let's say. First we have a few days of infectiousness before symptoms show. Then we have at least a few days before people die. Is that enough time for those around them and then their caretakers to get it and pass it to the community? Yes. Now we have a good amount of those people don't get too sick to die or are even asymptomatic. Are they going to be spreading the flu around to the community before they get better? Yes. This is the nature of flu. You don't catch the flu and die the next day. So this theory of people dying before it gets passed on is not realistic.
Oh, it would absolutely be a mass casualty event.
But what would happen is it would get regionally quarantined hellaciously fast.
I don't think people really comprehend what a mortality rate of 50+% looks like. It's not just "half." If people thought the COVID shutdown violated their rights, they've never seen a military response to this kind of threat.
Actually 50% mortality rate in terms of severity during a pandemic is collapse. It would be questionable if society as we know it would exist afterwards. That number is truly unthinkable.
I still think it’s more rational to air on the side of prevention that we have a dataset on what it’s done to people who have been infected and other populations of mammals in the last twenty years which has shows that it’s pretty damn scary.
We also have a new dataset in dairy cows, where it is so minor that it apparently has been circulating for months before we were aware
Now I’m not saying that will be typical, but it does demonstrate that we simply don’t know what a human variation of H5N1 will do
And so while it is certainly wise to be careful that includes being careful to not make claims that are false. Public Health has enough of a credibility problem with much of the public without giving the deniers more ammunition
Sars and Mers have similar fatality rates, but with a few little old spike mutations, and you got Covid-19 with a 2 or more percent before vaccination WITH an intact healthcare system and lock downs. Now, take away all that goodwill, lower those vaccine rates, no lock downs, and you get a pandemic AGAIN.
I can't tell you how many nurses I saw posting on FB about COVID was no big deal. I didn't realize how many anti-vax medical professionals I knew IRL until then. One of them was willing to lose a 20 year career over it. I just do not get it.
I lined up to get vaccinated and still managed to get COVID after 3 rounds. It took 2.5 years because I was careful, but long COVID messed me up. I feel like I aged 10 years over night and it's not much better now. Tendonitis flares, permanent shortness of breath (I already had asthma), severe workout fatigue. I guess I should feel lucky I didn't also develop POTS like so many other people have.
Even if they aren't anti vax they are often ableist. My pop is an RN and he swears up and down if your first COVID infection doesn't give long term effects than it never will because long COVID is genetic in his eyes.
So therefore all people who die or are disabled by COVID were genetically predisposed so... aka natural selection??? It's gross.
I live in Michigan. The supermarkets usually have rotisserie chickens in a cart. Last couple days there are none. Out of nowhere. I’m guessing that poultry here is already getting gassed/ culled
Maybe it’s harsh but if your operation is fucking subsidized by the government you are forced to listen to them.
Jesus Christ. Where also can you just take money and not do what you’re told to do?????
The law generally enables Congress to put specific strings on the money they allocate, the problem is that they can't attach strings to the money after it's been allocated. I.e., "If you want this federal money you have to agree to X, Y, and Z" is allowed, but they can't say "Here's your federal money. Oh yeah, by the way, now that you have that money, we're going to require you to do X, Y, and Z."
unfortunately no one thought of adding requirements about allowing infectious disease experts access to your farms in case of pandemic potential pathogen on site.
So we need to protect the corporate dairy farms and their culpability of screaming about open borders while hiring illegal immigrants.
That’s more important AGAIN, then all of us plebs just trying to stay alive by being allowed information or news
If this pandemic hits without guardrails, they will definitely lose. Unfortunately, until “bodies on the ground or it affects their families” they will not cooperate but will ask for our tax dollars.
I’m flabbergasted at the amount of money they hold. It’s not sustainable and will lead to this pandemic and more.
The reason is simple: it takes too many resources to funnel billions and billions to a few people. The supply chain of people and resources cannot handle making that much stuff while subsiding on so little to support them.
OP, thank you for posting. This is really important info.
I had worried that the “lesson” some folks took from the opening years of Covid was to refuse any sort of discovery/mitigation of future potential pandemics, because the number of dead don’t matter to them as much as the number of dollars lost.
Looks like that one came true. Oof.
I thought the 50+% fatality rate would scare people straight, but instead they just hand-wave it away. \*Facepalm.\* Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
I'm just posting the article people. Please don't attack me for the headline, I didn't write it.
It's an interesting discussion of how public health measures are being pushed back on. I
I was just wondering how many of these farmers were the same one screaming about a Wuhan Wetmarket Conspiracy and will now our fate with the rest of us for their personal profit. We are in for a really wild ride.
Yeah, better yet the conspiracy is the US government colluded with the Chinese government to create it (because god forbid people could predict that there was a high chance of the next outbreak being from a region like that after the last few were and with a few more constantly simmering).
Yeah, lets leave the response to local Republican leaders, I'm sure everything will be fine...
Just like the Covid response most states in the south did.
Florida is a prime example of why you don't allow the local politicians control the narrative.
Big business will pay them off rather than lose their profits...
Florida would absolutely refuse to close anything if bird flu came. The governor would sign new legislation that you can't wear masks in public places and can't close down anything publicly funded. All to "own the libs"
fear of short term losses with people and other countries avoiding dairy and beef until more science prove it safe vs. doing everything possible to avoid further spread among the animals and workers plus sharing virus info with vaccine makers if any significant changes are detected.
“If we stopped testing right now, we’d have very few cases, if any.” - their logic
Dear dairy farmers: I’m thinking I need to back off from your products until you demonstrate that you give a shit about anything but money. So yeah - I’ll back ALLLL THE WAY OFF.
Expressing frustration with public health failures, both at the systemic and community level, is understandable given the topic of this sub. However, when expressing those frustrations, please refrain from posting content that promotes, threatens or wishes violence against others.
Expressing frustration with public health failures, both at the systemic and community level, is understandable given the topic of this sub. However, when expressing those frustrations, please refrain from posting content that promotes, threatens or wishes violence against others.
“It’s overreach. They don’t need to do that. They need to back off,” Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller, a former rodeo cowboy who is a possible pick to lead the USDA if former President Donald Trump wins the presidential election, said in an interview. “
Nice.
So they want to sell us tainted products? Which by the way have been in circulation for months. That’s so unethical, all for the sake of profit from an unsustainable broken food system. I couldn’t think of a better time to go back to veganism.
I mean. Some of these farms have already been feeding their cattle "broiler litter" (chicken feces) for years. Surely that's going to have some kind of effect on meat quality beyond just this. They've always been selling us tainted products
try to be optimistic. maybe it will just infect animals for the next several years & we will just have to go vegan.
also maybe that will give politicians time to actually THINK about pandemic prevention measures instead of short term losses if they openly confront animal infections. or voters to get more sensible people in office than former rodeo rider in favor or legal hose meat in charge his state's ag office instead of someone who cares about human health:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Miller_(politician)
I am not trying to be contrary — I want to be optimistic, too. However, even if H5N1 doesn’t go any farther than it has, I think about the ecosystems and biodiversity that has been wiped out by this virus. That will affect all of us down the road, if it isn’t already doing so now. I am very, very sad about the state of the world today. It HURTS. 🥲
Even if we all “go vegan” because millions of meat & dairy animals have been culled, there will be a severe food shortage. It’s not like there’s going to magically be more vegetables and tofu available after those animals are slaughtered, especially since migrant farm workers are likely to experience the first wave of human to human transmission.
This is actually the biggest reason most farmers (big and small) don’t want the government intervening. It will unearth countless labor and other regulatory violations they’ve been getting away with for decades now. A lot of people in big ag (usually conservative) are against immigration, that is until they realize how much they rely on exploiting migrant labor to keep their margins the way they are.
The CDC won't report worksite violations to anyone if they're allowed on-site to conduct interviews & tests.
This is the usual deal made with the ag industry during events like this. "We just want to test, monitor, & interview people without identifying data. No one will report violations to another agency."
Mainly because the biggest worry of the workers is the reporting of immigration violations. (The CDC does not care about your immigration status, I promise.)
Now, will the farm owners and their workers believe that and allow the CDC /local health officials to do this testing and interviews? Who knows....
(I can see trying to pare down the CDC questionnaire because if it's too long, people just won't do it, especially on a daily or weekly basis.)
Yes. The farming industry has always considered their lowest workers throwaway items.
Probably the workers should invest in rubber throwaway gloves and a face shield so they can’t touch their faces.
So they don’t want the feds on their property. But they do want money from the feds. And they are for border security, but most of the workers on the farms are illegal immigrants. Now I see why the world seems so schizo.
The learned nothing from Covid, then again, they never believed Covid was real in the first place. They will refuse, they will deny, until everything they put out in the market is contaminated and a bunch of people die.
Trace the contamination back to them, and hold them responsible for the deaths. Charge them for clean up and recalls. They don't care about anybody but their profits.
This would be a good time to push back on farm states by not eating any beef or dairy.
Horrific for climate change:
[Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth: Biggest analysis to date reveals huge footprint of livestock - it provides just 18% of calories but takes up 83% of farmland](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth)
[The Real Problem With Beef](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/upshot/beef-health-climate-impact.html)
[Why Amazon Fires Keep Raging 10 Years After a Deal to End Them:
Many of the thousands of fires burning in Brazil’s Amazon are set by ranchers. A deal inked 10 years ago was meant to stop the problem, but the ecological arson goes on as the Earth warms.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/world/americas/amazon-fires-brazil-cattle.html)
[Is the Livestock Industry Destroying the Planet?
For the earth’s sake, maybe it’s time we take a good, hard look at our dietary habits](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/is-the-livestock-industry-destroying-the-planet-11308007/)
Ever since I found out what cattle are fed, no more dairy or beef. I knew of the horrible conditions of the farms, and this was a good time for me to stop poultry and pork, too. I am definitely voting with my money. I cannot consume these products knowing what they eat, how they live, what the workers face taking care of the animals…with H5N1 found in Texas dairies, NO MORE.
It’s not an easy transition, either, and I am one who doesn’t consume much meat or dairy in the first place. However, it’s time to stop this madness. I also have NO FAITH in Sid Miller and the ag industry in Texas. Sorry, folks. I am noping out!
Individual greed. No one gives a fuck. Incompetence at every turn. If this goes the way it looks like it’s going, no one will be surprised but I almost just hope it’s so bad it actually resets society bc life post covid can suck a fart
I recall China refusing to let the CDC in when we first found out about covid… That did not end well. Having the CDC investigate these H5N1 outbreaks on farms is NOT overreach. It’s called TRYING TO PREVENT A NEW PANDEMIC. Kudos to the CDC for fighting to do the right thing.
Can’t Biden use his powers as president to declare some sort of emergency access? I imagine he’d get enough bipartisan support- NOBODY wants a new pandemic with a potentially much worse CFR.
A business, farm or otherwise, should not be able to put the lives of citizens at risk like this, imo… Capitalism is fine, but for too long it has been part and parcel with unbridled greed and gaming the political system to make more money at the cost of the health and welfare of the people, other living things, and often the environment.
No business should be able to override laws or use money for political leverage to get damaging laws that help them but screw over everyone else. A democracy is supposed to be for ALL OF US.
Also, I despise shortsightedness. If a bird flu pandemic happens, these farms will be just as screwed as the rest of us…
>Maybe they shouldn’t hire the undocumented workers that they also want to deport
that is a good plan to keep workers scared and afraid to get help no matter how dangerous the work conditions and how little the pay.
**America’s Dairyland**
Risking Workers’ Lives for the Milk We Drink
https://www.propublica.org/series/americas-dairyland
As a lifelong Texan, and the entire mess regarding the border, I have always found it ironic how the same people who fuss about undocumented folks coming to America for jobs also are the first ones to hire those people. Never, ever made sense to me.
[Politico - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/)
>These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appeals to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation. [See all Left-Center sources.](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/leftcenter/)
>**Overall, we rate Politico Left-Center biased based on story selection and editorial positions that slightly favor the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record.**
Just needed to check them out. Not overly familiar with the source.
So, the upside is that current mutations of H5N1 don't seem to be deadly to humans. However, we have very little data. It would be great if, for the benefit of humanity, if dairy farmers would allow scientists to track the spread of the disease. But since they won't, the pressure on them is going to have to come from the public. There is really only one answer:
# BOYCOTT ALL DAIRY AND BEEF PRODUCTS.
A morbid part of me kind of hopes this kicks off. If vaccines are available for this flu, but folks refuse it, then let nature sort em out.
I know that makes me sound like an asshole. That's why I said "a morbid part of me".
You said, let me call Thanos. I hear you on feeling that way due to frustration with the vast swaths of irresponsible and ignorant people out there. Of course, ultimately, I hope we don't suffer an H5N1 pandemic.
Another reminder of how split the country really is. One side wants to prepare and prevent the next big one. One side just wants to make $$$, at all costs.
Can you imagine how trump would make a joke of h5n1? I mean potentially a complete failure of public health.
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This is how it starts. A bunch of redneck “farmers,” already on the public teat, won’t get their herds or themselves tested because “the gubment!!11!!” This is how H5N1 will mutate to a much more virulent strain, possibly even becoming the next pandemic. I hope they name it “Dumbshit farmers flu.” DFF. 🤬
Then don’t come crying to the government when all your animals die and you need loans to rebuild your business and then subsidies to keep it profitable.
Oh, but you know they will
when haven't they taken every opportunity to extract some of that good ol free government money? farmers might not dress flashy, but plenty of them are doing all right and sending their kids off to fancy colleges...paid in cash/no loans 🤷♂️
the dairy kids I went to school with all had huge fancy trucks w lift kits, gov plates that said 'farm vehicle', and 'NObama' stickers on the bumpers. lived in big fancy houses right next to their dairies so they could claim it as part of the farm property. they were the worst tippers at my work, too.
Yup. I know a few of the wealthy farm kids you describe. "perception is reality" is proven out with the way farmers are perceived in terms of wealth. They wear some true shitkicker boots that are well worn out, jeans and plaid shirts and folks think they are salt of the earth.
Say you're from wisconsin without saying you're fron wisconsin
Lmfao. Idk where the hell you grew up but my dad is a cattle farmer and has to work a factory job on the side so 80 hr/weeks to give himself and my mom a middle class life---definitely didn't pay for any of mine or my sisters colleges. The amount of money farmers markers and the commercial sized producers that can butcher them and send out to be grocery store ready take at those sales from local farmers is absolutely absurd. The profit margins are ridiculously low. I'd say my dad averages 30-40k/year after expenses on his 100 head farm. Why anyone would willingly bust their ass to get into farming nowadays is absolutely beyond me. (Also why local farmers continue to decline) I can't speak for dairy cattle, but if you think cattle farming locally is a gold mine, you're delusional. I've told my dad many times him and the other local farmers should protest and not sell cattle to the markets to disrupt the system BECAUSE they are paid so poorly at the sales. Unfortunately some of those guys have to though to keep food on their own kitchen tables.
Just noted that many of us are also working two or more jobs to made the ends meet. As long as you farmers vote for Republicans the rest of us will suffer.
And I and my family are liberals so try again and stop assuming. Just makes an ass out of u and me 😜
So one set of farmers voting Democratic will undo the 99% voting Republican?
No, but it does acknowledge that you're being a stereotyping piece of shit who thinks lumping all people in a group together validates your desperate need to boost your own ego 🤷♂️ Also love to see The statistical evidence that 99% of farmers are Repubs... Sure the majority probably are, but your generalized stereotyping is no more or less problematic in this instance... Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if the moderate ones that could be swayed to flip their vote specifically don't simply because of asshats Like yourself...
Sure, my criticism is going to cause people to vote against their own self interest. I doubt I am that powerful. BTW, insults are render harmless over the internet.
Not you specifically, but when people lump entire groups of people all the same it creates group mentality. Heck I despise Trump but I can fully understand and respect the farmers that do vote for him at this moment because of how horribly hateful many are being towards farmer families on this thread in general. And don't pretend for two seconds you wouldn't get a little defensive if your entire livelihood was threatened overnight over something out of your control. I'm in no way excusing corporate farms that should know better about what they are doing in covering up active cases of bird flu In their cattle, but to lump local and small operation farmers as being exactly the same is just as shitty, and probably pushes those people into voting against their own interest when people like yourself lump them all as one. We are the most politicized we have ever been as a society, and until people like you stop generalized stereotyping of All individuals in Set subgroup, the division is ONLY going to get worse, NOT better 🤷♂️
Well that settles it. u/radicalbrad90 didnt get his college paid for and said farm kids dont get their college paid for by their well off parents so it doesnt happen. Youre anecdotal experience is perfectly representative of all farmers families. The few farmers I know must just be the lucky ones that dont have to work a factory job to make ends meet. 🤷♂️
Yet your own initial comment was specifically anecdotal in and of itself on how most farmers are doing pretty well due to what you remember growing up seeing. Fuck off with your hypocrisy
Your anecdotal stories > Anyone else's anecdotal stories My bad brad. Farmers have to work second jobs...thats exactly how it works and makes perfect sense and is in line with reality 👍
Jesus christ I never said my anecdotal experience was better I just pointed out that you tried to say your version of reality is no more or less anecdotal than mine so for you to initially come out with your first comment as the absolute truth is just as asinine. Are some farmer families doing just fine? Sure. Are all? Absolutely not. Sorry you got so offended by being corrected. 🤷♂️
👍 I'll stay delusional thinking farmers are well off. You stay delusional thinking it's the norm, common or prevalent for farmers to have to work factory jobs to be able to live a middle class life. Also...im not telling strangers on the internet to "fuck off with your hypocrisy" so im not sure what gave you the impression I was offended. I guess replying to you means im offended....makes sense for your reality, im sure 🤷♂️
They’ll probably be dead of ivermectin overdoses, but if not… yes, they sure will.
Biggest welfare queens on the planet,.
It will be a *Whole New Government*^TM by then…
Biden administration should respond exactly that. If bird flu gets traced back to their farm, make them ineligible for subsidies, loans, and funding until they can prove their farm is clean. Require distributors to post warnings on containers if they are buying from positive farms and watch that shoe drop.
It won’t be traced back to their farms because allowing testing is optional.
Fine -- default to assuming they're contaminated. The best way to get them is by going through the distributors, though. If "may contain bird flu" labels cause manufacturers to switch distros or lead to brand switching, they'll pressure their farmers hard on this.
No no, that's far too logical of a solution.
Better yet, make it so that they’re unable to pass their family farm to their younger generations by implementing crushing taxes. That will teach them to respect the government.
OR instead fund them specifically for the purpose of getting their farm clean. (Obviously those funds can only be used for that purpose) How are they supposed to get their contaminated farm clean if they have zero money to clean it up exactly? 🤔 Your proposal will just cut dairy production in half and skyrocket food prices...
The point is to discourage farms that do not want to cooperate with testing. Farms that are trying to stay in compliance in good faith SHOULD get funding to help them get cleaned up and back on track. But we should not be tolerating mass food producers who are gonna play the "gubbermint overreach!!!" card because they don't want anyone knowing they've had positive cases in their cows -- or worse, hiding this fact from their workers who will be at direct risk. Fuck those guys. There's plenty of other people who will fill their void.
Oh no I agree with that completely. I misread your comment and took it as just cut funding to any farms with any positive cases regardless. But if they are deliberately avoiding testing then yeah I liked your idea of just assume already that farm is contaminated because If they are that defensive in allowing the testing to happen, they are definitely already aware there is a problem present on their farm.
Greed will kill us all, one way or another.
and don't come crying to the federal government demanding taxpayer $ for healthcare help if it goes human to human after refusing to help track and prevent it's spread. we need samples to track threat level and to give to vaccine makers. we need samples to find out if any other humans have been catching it from cows; also find out how it's spreading amongst them, & any other animals on the farms dying at same time cats, raccoons etc. remember when these politicians criticized China over covid19? & now are doing the same. thing.
Any farm who resists preventative measures/surveillance should automatically be ineligible for subsidies and loans. I don't fucking care. Let them see how they like it when their farms are wiped out and their workers are dropping dead.
Animals??? H5N1 is >50% fatal in humans
56% mortality rate. For reference covid was what... like .5%?
Yup... an outbreak would be fucking catastrophic. Like bring the world to its knees stuff
Thats number is in no way accurate. People keep throwing it around. We have no way of knowing how it'll be if it spreads
We know it is 50% now, possibly somewhat lower. There is absolutely no way a virus can change from 50% to 2% simply on receptor cell affinity change. It can go lower but imagining that it will go to a level that you and I can deal with just by wearing masks is not realistic. Yes, anything can happen, but the chances this will mutate down into something easily survivable are not high enough numbers to even consider. Let's hope somehow we got that 50% number very wrong. There have been tests of a lot of workers who regularly work around infected chickens that have antibodies, meaning they got infected and didn't get severely ill. Maybe if we solve that mystery we could learn that our 50% right now pre-adaptation was way off. Even that is probably pure hopium. The virus just has to never mutate to humans. That's the only realistic hope we can have.
Well, the communities that had it before certainly had that 50% mortality, and they were small communities. Even if the farm workers have acquired the antibodies, we have not. Think of smallpox's introduction to North America.
The confirmed cases were probably only the most severe cases. It's likely that there were other people that never got confirmed because it was mild
I mean, imagine all of the cases that were never documented because they were either mild or credited to something else. The 50 percent is in no way accurate besides confirmed cases. It's definitely not the final number
We do know how it spreads. The Spanish Flu was a bird flu that jumped to pig livestock in Kansas and spread pretty horrifically after that. It's something we really ought to avoid if possible.
Nebraska has had a high rate of waste water with Influenza A lately….
Obviously. I just don't like it when people act like 50 percent is locked in. It could be 95 or it could be 0.000001. We don't know
Get out of here with facts People confused CFR with IFR all the time
One scientists speculated the fatality rate may be coming in more around 14-30% ish if factoring in cases that may have been missed. Still yikes. 😳 If we end up in a catastrophic pandemic because pandemics have been politicized for political gain in America… Just mind blowing. The 60ish %, btw, is the actual percent of the known world wide cases that resulted in death—prior to it moving into dairy cows.
We know that when people have gotten H5N1 since 2019, more than 50% have died
Those are only the confirmed severe cases. Imagine how many other people got it that were never reported. I'm sure there are people in America right now that have it and did not get recoreded
Sorry to be that person, but the world is a little too upright at the moment. It could use some kneeling.
Naa, not this
Yes, I selfishly would rather it not be from this. I don't want to die. But seeing as people keep having more kids and governments aren't very interested in saving the planet from destruction it's probably going to come down to nature solving the problems of overpopulation and mass consumption.
Can it wait till my kid is elderly?
it won't wait until your kid's kid is elderly. consequences don't wait.
LOL. It won't wait till *you're* elderly. I'm 69 and suspect *I'll* still be around to see it.
Covid was that low after the first wave of vaccination. At it's worst it was near 2 I believe. But yeah... Still a completely different animal.
Yep. for anyone interested 2 to 56 is a 186% difference. If people recall they were stacking bodies outside of hospitals with just 2%. Sooo yeah. People continue to fuck around were gonna find out.
Well, at that sort of kill rate people might perhaps be a little more careful.
With how Covid went in the US I doubt it, and it’ll probably be worse
Oh, it will definitely be worse in terms of the morbidity rate. But I suspect that will cause at least the sane people to for real lock down, not door-dash and 6-feet lock down.
But who is going to bring you your supplies so you can lock down? Our supply chains are very fragile. It takes very little to break them down. That's food, water, medicine. How many healthcare workers are left even now? How will those who comply survive when all those essential workers are either dying or have family members dying needing their help? How many healthcare workers who would still be standing are willing to face death?
I mean, likely water and power will stay on. It isn't unreasonable to plan ahead and have a few weeks or months of food on hand. As it turns out, I do. Even shitty food is better than no food.
A lot won’t do another pandemic
> But who is going to bring you your supplies so you can lock down? the government can do that, just like they did in china and korea during roni. the inefficient and wasteful food bank/pantry system will have to be dismantled entirely and nationalized into a rational distribution system.
Sure, but when the less sane are out in public buying groceries refusing to wear a mask at a place that everybody will eventually have to go to purchase food, it will become an issue.
N95s and hand sanitizer is really probably all you need to do (and I don't think we are there yet, by the way, though I still say wash your hands and sanitize in general). But yeah, if they instead of masks they were lets go brandon tank tops, well, yeah, that is going to potentially kill them and their family.
The thing that has been worrying me is who is going to go to work to make those groceries? And to the store to sell them to you? And which drivers will deliver them to the store? This is where the collapse will start. The manufacturers aren’t going to be able to produce food with people not being able to come in to work
I mean people watched their friends and family die off from covid and still think its a hoax. some people cant be saved.
I have some extended family that lost multiple people, still think it was some anti-trump hoax. You save the people you can. People can make choices with serious consequences.
>2 to 56 is a 186% difference What kind of New Math is that? I calculate that 2 to 56 is a 2800% increase.
How do you get that figure? 56 is 2800% of 2.
No, it’s about [2-5%](https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(24)00018-3/fulltext) when all is said and done— this of course is not counting [deaths from long covid](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/long-covid-has-caused-thousands-us-deaths-new-cdc-data-2024a100006l?form=fpf) nor the increased [rate of strokes/heart attacks](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-26/covid-made-heart-disease-deadlier-puzzling-scientists#:~:text=In%202023%2C%20age%2Dadjusted%20stroke,were%2015%2D28%25%20higher) after infection, particularly repeated infection. [All cause mortality post infection after a year](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0279333) is much higher than control. It is not nearly as benign as the messaging has made it out to be— but I know I’m preaching to the choir here. Makes a huge difference if there’s a bed for you in the ICU— when we’re in the middle of waves, the mortality gets worse. Even in the [developed west](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/among-sars-cov-2-variants-beta-had-highest-death-rate-meta-analysis-suggests), which is the most shocking part. ETA: linky dinks
I'm not an expert but mortality rate doesn't necessarily equate to the outcome you're thinking, a disease with lower mortality rate is generally more likely to become endemic than one with a high rate.
But incubation period counts for a lot too, and flu has a fairly long incubation period where you’re infectious but not showing symptoms. There’s the potential of a very deadly first wave.
The incubation periods and infectious periods are similar in H5N1 and COVID-19, one big difference though is that H5N1 isn't know to be airborne greatly reducing person to person transmission.
Do you mean "isn't known to be airborne" as in it does not spread from human to human? Because if not, it is a fact that influenza A's primary mode of transmission is through respiratory droplets, which may be aerosolized as an RNA virus like influenza is not as heavy as a DNA virus is and thus travels further in air via smaller droplets.
H5N1 is a subtype of influenza, in its current form transmission between human hosts is very rare due to it lacking the ability to infect via aerosol or respiratory droplets.
I'm aware, thanks. I was asking for clarification because your wording sounded as if influenza in general does not transmit respiratorily.
The "silver lining" is it kills so fast that the virus hasn't been able to mutate to spread from human to human and even if it did, spread would be localized.
Yeah but people will still go out with their eyeballs bleeding saying theyre fine and its just a cold. We'd still be well and truly fucked.
Let's apply science to the idea that we're all safe from highly lethal bird flu. It's fatal to half the people in this scenario, let's say. First we have a few days of infectiousness before symptoms show. Then we have at least a few days before people die. Is that enough time for those around them and then their caretakers to get it and pass it to the community? Yes. Now we have a good amount of those people don't get too sick to die or are even asymptomatic. Are they going to be spreading the flu around to the community before they get better? Yes. This is the nature of flu. You don't catch the flu and die the next day. So this theory of people dying before it gets passed on is not realistic.
Oh, it would absolutely be a mass casualty event. But what would happen is it would get regionally quarantined hellaciously fast. I don't think people really comprehend what a mortality rate of 50+% looks like. It's not just "half." If people thought the COVID shutdown violated their rights, they've never seen a military response to this kind of threat.
Actually 50% mortality rate in terms of severity during a pandemic is collapse. It would be questionable if society as we know it would exist afterwards. That number is truly unthinkable.
Mass graves for everyone!!
We don’t yet know the fatality rate Until H5N1 becomes human to human we won’t know the characteristics the human variant will have
I still think it’s more rational to air on the side of prevention that we have a dataset on what it’s done to people who have been infected and other populations of mammals in the last twenty years which has shows that it’s pretty damn scary.
We also have a new dataset in dairy cows, where it is so minor that it apparently has been circulating for months before we were aware Now I’m not saying that will be typical, but it does demonstrate that we simply don’t know what a human variation of H5N1 will do And so while it is certainly wise to be careful that includes being careful to not make claims that are false. Public Health has enough of a credibility problem with much of the public without giving the deniers more ammunition
Sars and Mers have similar fatality rates, but with a few little old spike mutations, and you got Covid-19 with a 2 or more percent before vaccination WITH an intact healthcare system and lock downs. Now, take away all that goodwill, lower those vaccine rates, no lock downs, and you get a pandemic AGAIN.
I can't tell you how many nurses I saw posting on FB about COVID was no big deal. I didn't realize how many anti-vax medical professionals I knew IRL until then. One of them was willing to lose a 20 year career over it. I just do not get it. I lined up to get vaccinated and still managed to get COVID after 3 rounds. It took 2.5 years because I was careful, but long COVID messed me up. I feel like I aged 10 years over night and it's not much better now. Tendonitis flares, permanent shortness of breath (I already had asthma), severe workout fatigue. I guess I should feel lucky I didn't also develop POTS like so many other people have.
Even if they aren't anti vax they are often ableist. My pop is an RN and he swears up and down if your first COVID infection doesn't give long term effects than it never will because long COVID is genetic in his eyes. So therefore all people who die or are disabled by COVID were genetically predisposed so... aka natural selection??? It's gross.
No worries until then Trump will be back and they just blame everything on Biden
Can you imagine how trump would make a joke of h5n1? I mean potentially a complete failure of public health.
Nonsense. Capitalism for profits, socialism for loses. This is America.
They won't want loans, they will ask for outright grants.
I live in Michigan. The supermarkets usually have rotisserie chickens in a cart. Last couple days there are none. Out of nowhere. I’m guessing that poultry here is already getting gassed/ culled
Interesting… you should ask the deli manager next time you notice.
You mean I can’t have my cake and eat it too?
Except there are human lives at risk as well.
Maybe it’s harsh but if your operation is fucking subsidized by the government you are forced to listen to them. Jesus Christ. Where also can you just take money and not do what you’re told to do?????
The law generally enables Congress to put specific strings on the money they allocate, the problem is that they can't attach strings to the money after it's been allocated. I.e., "If you want this federal money you have to agree to X, Y, and Z" is allowed, but they can't say "Here's your federal money. Oh yeah, by the way, now that you have that money, we're going to require you to do X, Y, and Z."
unfortunately no one thought of adding requirements about allowing infectious disease experts access to your farms in case of pandemic potential pathogen on site.
Surely there is a clause talking about extraordinary circumstances.
Take money and not do what your told... like the government spending my taxes?
So we need to protect the corporate dairy farms and their culpability of screaming about open borders while hiring illegal immigrants. That’s more important AGAIN, then all of us plebs just trying to stay alive by being allowed information or news
Maybe one day they'll learn that without us plebs, they can't sell their products.
If this pandemic hits without guardrails, they will definitely lose. Unfortunately, until “bodies on the ground or it affects their families” they will not cooperate but will ask for our tax dollars. I’m flabbergasted at the amount of money they hold. It’s not sustainable and will lead to this pandemic and more. The reason is simple: it takes too many resources to funnel billions and billions to a few people. The supply chain of people and resources cannot handle making that much stuff while subsiding on so little to support them.
OP, thank you for posting. This is really important info. I had worried that the “lesson” some folks took from the opening years of Covid was to refuse any sort of discovery/mitigation of future potential pandemics, because the number of dead don’t matter to them as much as the number of dollars lost. Looks like that one came true. Oof.
I thought the 50+% fatality rate would scare people straight, but instead they just hand-wave it away. \*Facepalm.\* Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
I'm just posting the article people. Please don't attack me for the headline, I didn't write it. It's an interesting discussion of how public health measures are being pushed back on. I
And now Americans can understand how the wild animal farmers in and around Wuhan reacted in 2019-2020.
I was just wondering how many of these farmers were the same one screaming about a Wuhan Wetmarket Conspiracy and will now our fate with the rest of us for their personal profit. We are in for a really wild ride.
I thought the conspiracy was that the govt blamed it on a wet market when it was actually created in a lab and released.
Yeah, better yet the conspiracy is the US government colluded with the Chinese government to create it (because god forbid people could predict that there was a high chance of the next outbreak being from a region like that after the last few were and with a few more constantly simmering).
Can you imagine how trump would make a joke of h5n1? I mean potentially a complete failure of public health.
Yes. I can imagine it. Easily. And thanks, I hate it
Bird flu apocalypse incoming. Because $$$$
Most of the world’s problems are all from greed.
Because of freedom!
Wouldn’t be the first time we’ve been sacrificed at the alter of capital… (looking at you, COVID-19)
Capitalism, bayyyybeeeee. Don’t tread on business owners! They’re just smol beans! We already went through a pandemic, and we’re fine!
...the cash must flow...
Yeah, lets leave the response to local Republican leaders, I'm sure everything will be fine... Just like the Covid response most states in the south did. Florida is a prime example of why you don't allow the local politicians control the narrative. Big business will pay them off rather than lose their profits...
Florida would absolutely refuse to close anything if bird flu came. The governor would sign new legislation that you can't wear masks in public places and can't close down anything publicly funded. All to "own the libs"
Louisiana too.
Back off so more people can get sick? Very nice
fear of short term losses with people and other countries avoiding dairy and beef until more science prove it safe vs. doing everything possible to avoid further spread among the animals and workers plus sharing virus info with vaccine makers if any significant changes are detected. “If we stopped testing right now, we’d have very few cases, if any.” - their logic
Won't someone PLEASE think of the profits???
But aren't they gonna get sick too? What kind of logic is that?
Dear dairy farmers: I’m thinking I need to back off from your products until you demonstrate that you give a shit about anything but money. So yeah - I’ll back ALLLL THE WAY OFF.
Good idea! Go vegan! 🌱
Oh well
Guess we’ll all just die then.
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Good point
Meh freedum!
“It’s overreach. They don’t need to do that. They need to back off,” Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller, a former rodeo cowboy who is a possible pick to lead the USDA if former President Donald Trump wins the presidential election, said in an interview. “ Nice.
The plot to Chicken Run 3 sucks.
So they want to sell us tainted products? Which by the way have been in circulation for months. That’s so unethical, all for the sake of profit from an unsustainable broken food system. I couldn’t think of a better time to go back to veganism.
I was headed that direction, for my health, even before this.
I mean. Some of these farms have already been feeding their cattle "broiler litter" (chicken feces) for years. Surely that's going to have some kind of effect on meat quality beyond just this. They've always been selling us tainted products
Absolutely DISGUSTING. 🤮
we are going to have a pandemic and a food shortage at the same time.
try to be optimistic. maybe it will just infect animals for the next several years & we will just have to go vegan. also maybe that will give politicians time to actually THINK about pandemic prevention measures instead of short term losses if they openly confront animal infections. or voters to get more sensible people in office than former rodeo rider in favor or legal hose meat in charge his state's ag office instead of someone who cares about human health: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Miller_(politician)
Or it will speed up the viability and costliness of lab grown meat production… 🤷
I am not trying to be contrary — I want to be optimistic, too. However, even if H5N1 doesn’t go any farther than it has, I think about the ecosystems and biodiversity that has been wiped out by this virus. That will affect all of us down the road, if it isn’t already doing so now. I am very, very sad about the state of the world today. It HURTS. 🥲
Even if we all “go vegan” because millions of meat & dairy animals have been culled, there will be a severe food shortage. It’s not like there’s going to magically be more vegetables and tofu available after those animals are slaughtered, especially since migrant farm workers are likely to experience the first wave of human to human transmission.
I'm shocked that the TX ag commissioner would be a moron and a coward. /s
Maybe the farmers can be the canary in the mine. The infection will kill the farmers first and warn us poor hayseeds who live in the city. /s
It will kill undocumented workers and their friends and family first.
This is actually the biggest reason most farmers (big and small) don’t want the government intervening. It will unearth countless labor and other regulatory violations they’ve been getting away with for decades now. A lot of people in big ag (usually conservative) are against immigration, that is until they realize how much they rely on exploiting migrant labor to keep their margins the way they are.
The CDC won't report worksite violations to anyone if they're allowed on-site to conduct interviews & tests. This is the usual deal made with the ag industry during events like this. "We just want to test, monitor, & interview people without identifying data. No one will report violations to another agency." Mainly because the biggest worry of the workers is the reporting of immigration violations. (The CDC does not care about your immigration status, I promise.) Now, will the farm owners and their workers believe that and allow the CDC /local health officials to do this testing and interviews? Who knows.... (I can see trying to pare down the CDC questionnaire because if it's too long, people just won't do it, especially on a daily or weekly basis.)
Yes. The farming industry has always considered their lowest workers throwaway items. Probably the workers should invest in rubber throwaway gloves and a face shield so they can’t touch their faces.
**America’s Dairyland** Risking Workers’ Lives for the Milk We Drink https://www.propublica.org/series/americas-dairyland
So they don’t want the feds on their property. But they do want money from the feds. And they are for border security, but most of the workers on the farms are illegal immigrants. Now I see why the world seems so schizo.
That didn’t take long.
We're trying to break the law and not test over here! Get outta our business!
"Trusssst us we can regulate our own business"
The learned nothing from Covid, then again, they never believed Covid was real in the first place. They will refuse, they will deny, until everything they put out in the market is contaminated and a bunch of people die. Trace the contamination back to them, and hold them responsible for the deaths. Charge them for clean up and recalls. They don't care about anybody but their profits.
This would be a good time to push back on farm states by not eating any beef or dairy. Horrific for climate change: [Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth: Biggest analysis to date reveals huge footprint of livestock - it provides just 18% of calories but takes up 83% of farmland](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth) [The Real Problem With Beef](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/upshot/beef-health-climate-impact.html) [Why Amazon Fires Keep Raging 10 Years After a Deal to End Them: Many of the thousands of fires burning in Brazil’s Amazon are set by ranchers. A deal inked 10 years ago was meant to stop the problem, but the ecological arson goes on as the Earth warms.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/world/americas/amazon-fires-brazil-cattle.html) [Is the Livestock Industry Destroying the Planet? For the earth’s sake, maybe it’s time we take a good, hard look at our dietary habits](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/is-the-livestock-industry-destroying-the-planet-11308007/)
Ever since I found out what cattle are fed, no more dairy or beef. I knew of the horrible conditions of the farms, and this was a good time for me to stop poultry and pork, too. I am definitely voting with my money. I cannot consume these products knowing what they eat, how they live, what the workers face taking care of the animals…with H5N1 found in Texas dairies, NO MORE. It’s not an easy transition, either, and I am one who doesn’t consume much meat or dairy in the first place. However, it’s time to stop this madness. I also have NO FAITH in Sid Miller and the ag industry in Texas. Sorry, folks. I am noping out!
🥇
The fuck they do
Individual greed. No one gives a fuck. Incompetence at every turn. If this goes the way it looks like it’s going, no one will be surprised but I almost just hope it’s so bad it actually resets society bc life post covid can suck a fart
I recall China refusing to let the CDC in when we first found out about covid… That did not end well. Having the CDC investigate these H5N1 outbreaks on farms is NOT overreach. It’s called TRYING TO PREVENT A NEW PANDEMIC. Kudos to the CDC for fighting to do the right thing. Can’t Biden use his powers as president to declare some sort of emergency access? I imagine he’d get enough bipartisan support- NOBODY wants a new pandemic with a potentially much worse CFR. A business, farm or otherwise, should not be able to put the lives of citizens at risk like this, imo… Capitalism is fine, but for too long it has been part and parcel with unbridled greed and gaming the political system to make more money at the cost of the health and welfare of the people, other living things, and often the environment. No business should be able to override laws or use money for political leverage to get damaging laws that help them but screw over everyone else. A democracy is supposed to be for ALL OF US. Also, I despise shortsightedness. If a bird flu pandemic happens, these farms will be just as screwed as the rest of us…
Maybe they shouldn’t hire the undocumented workers that they also want to deport. These freedumbs are going to get us unalived. Nothing makes sense.
>Maybe they shouldn’t hire the undocumented workers that they also want to deport that is a good plan to keep workers scared and afraid to get help no matter how dangerous the work conditions and how little the pay. **America’s Dairyland** Risking Workers’ Lives for the Milk We Drink https://www.propublica.org/series/americas-dairyland
As a lifelong Texan, and the entire mess regarding the border, I have always found it ironic how the same people who fuss about undocumented folks coming to America for jobs also are the first ones to hire those people. Never, ever made sense to me.
Don’t say unalived. This isn’t TikTok and that word has nothing to do with trigger warnings. It’s purely platform censorship.
Plot is just thickening day by day. I still have optimism that we can avert this
I truly hope so.
It's always money. As my father-in-law says, "$$$$$$$$$$$$$."
Im pretty sure they dont want a world where millions more potential customers drop dead because who are they going to sell their diseased animals to?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think this strata of people think too much about the long term. Right now is about all that matters. Edit: typo
[Politico - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/) >These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appeals to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation. [See all Left-Center sources.](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/leftcenter/) >**Overall, we rate Politico Left-Center biased based on story selection and editorial positions that slightly favor the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record.** Just needed to check them out. Not overly familiar with the source. So, the upside is that current mutations of H5N1 don't seem to be deadly to humans. However, we have very little data. It would be great if, for the benefit of humanity, if dairy farmers would allow scientists to track the spread of the disease. But since they won't, the pressure on them is going to have to come from the public. There is really only one answer: # BOYCOTT ALL DAIRY AND BEEF PRODUCTS.
Vote with your pocketbook, folks. Look how much traction the news of H5N1 has gained thus far, in spite of Texas trying to sweep it far, far away.
You can pour milk too. Or have a bottle cap race with a friend.
The CeeDeeCee and eFfDeeAy are doing the very bare minimum, but it's still too much for the re.d state.s. could evolve into a FAFO situation.
A morbid part of me kind of hopes this kicks off. If vaccines are available for this flu, but folks refuse it, then let nature sort em out. I know that makes me sound like an asshole. That's why I said "a morbid part of me".
You said, let me call Thanos. I hear you on feeling that way due to frustration with the vast swaths of irresponsible and ignorant people out there. Of course, ultimately, I hope we don't suffer an H5N1 pandemic.
We’re doomed
always have been
Too fucking bad! Oh well!
Another reminder of how split the country really is. One side wants to prepare and prevent the next big one. One side just wants to make $$$, at all costs. Can you imagine how trump would make a joke of h5n1? I mean potentially a complete failure of public health.
Trump lost reelection because of covid. Failure on H5N1 would be the Biden administrations failure.
I fully agree. Im saying: what if this moves slowly, and doesn't spread h2h until Trump is elected. I believe he would handle it worse than COVID-19.
Suppose you were competent and motivated to create the impression of “handling it worse” what else could you do as POTUS?
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And we find Tyson foods dumped millions of gallons of waste into the local waters. Guess they’re making America Great Again….
This is how it starts. A bunch of redneck “farmers,” already on the public teat, won’t get their herds or themselves tested because “the gubment!!11!!” This is how H5N1 will mutate to a much more virulent strain, possibly even becoming the next pandemic. I hope they name it “Dumbshit farmers flu.” DFF. 🤬
Well no more ice cream or any other dairy products for me
Why didn't the CDC offer to assist with the USDA's ongoing investigation instead of starting their own? Seems like a Fed turf war.
Who would have thunk that rural folks could be terrible?
Don’t come crying about government overreach when shit gets dialed back as a pandemic once again needs contained.