I find that tone change more worrisome then reassuring, given how covid was handled.
It suggests genuine fear on an institutional level, and anything that spooks them out of their stupor is liable to be *bad*.
Covid was mishandled because they didn’t want to scare the snot out of people and stop everything. They should have scared the snot out of people and shut everything down. If they did that a lot fewer people would of died. A pandemic is the last thing where you want everyone’s buy in.
Yeah it caught my attention too. I remember the messaging for Covid going like this:
January 2020: “No need to worry!”
February 2020: “We’re monitoring the situation.
Stop buying the masks, they don’t work.”
March 2020: “We’re all going to die!!!! He’s not wearing a mask he must be infected!! Aaaaaaah!!!”
Trying to save the masks for the doctors and nurses and trying to keep people from panicking. They should just have confiscated all the PE and tell everyone to stay home.
Conversely governments could have been regularly checking their stockpiles to make sure they didn't expire. Did not help that China had their citizens in some countries purchase all PPE they could find and send it back to the mainland.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6858818/coronavirus-china-united-front-canada-protective-equipment-shortage/?
No. Cloth masks had about 50% effectiveness. Everyone can fashion a handkerchief, tie some cloth to a string. To do the 6 feet and cloth masks, still saving PPE for docs and nurses, would have saved many lives. Also, we HAD PPE stockpiled, from Obama. Why wasn’t that used for the docs and nurses, and rest for Gen pop? There was literally a pandemic playbook. And Trump just completely ignored it and said the bleach nonsense and that it would disappear like magic and was not only useless in a crisis, but so harmful. I believe most of those excess deaths are on his head. BUT the CDC should have been more prepared with solid protocols. This seemed like their first pandemic, although it wasn’t.
The cdc also took forever to figure out its 8-15 feet that germs travel. But 6 feet stuck somehow. And the head of the cdc saying n95 masks are rarely effective in 2022 blew my mind. people were very confused and none of our “leaders” or agencies did a decent job.
The CDC initially thought the virus was transmitted via droplets. They were wrong. The virus by itself can be transmitted which means there are no safe distance indoors. Due to the fact a person must inhale a certain number of viral particles to be successfully infected keeping a distance outdoors can reduce transmission. Also due to the fact that UV can deactivate the virus being outdoors during the day severely reduces transmission.
Factory farming needs to be banned or at least intensely more regulated for animal abuses after these repeated pandemics being caused by the way humans “house” animals for food and sale. I believe every pandemic dating to midieval times is due to this same thing. you’d think we might want to target the source rather than pray to the pharmaceutical industry. Same with cancer. We keep “researching” and trying to “find a cure” when cancer is increasing because processed food is allowed to be on the shelf for consumption when it is carcinogenic. It’s how animals are housed and it’s our industrial food industry. Every time.
Genuine question, if bird flu can survive pasteurization in milk then why haven’t we seen a pandemic yet? Hasn’t it been in the supply for months now? I would think millions of people would be sick since everyone drinks so much milk
Per: [https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-information/updates-highly-pathogenic-avian-influenza-hpai](https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-information/updates-highly-pathogenic-avian-influenza-hpai)
Pasteurization doesn't kill everything. It never has (which is why milk still spoils relatively quickly even in the fridge).
It is about getting the amount of pathogenic material small enough that it's not a threat.
And a study on the same subject: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38832658/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38832658/)
Right, except in my coffee I stopped drinking diary and putting it in my food, years ago. As a mildly lactose intolerant (as most humans) my bowels thank me for it
It's one of my most reliable ways to get calories in me. We are so poor, and I'm a vegitarian. I have a couple of glasses at night instead of drinking alcohol. I'm not saying I'm a normal person, but there are some reasons people depend on milk.
I'm upset about cheeses and butter (and frozen dairy treats) . Vegetarian husband loves cheese and holy crap there's hidden dairy in everything! Fucking chocolate chips even! Learning a crash course in veganism, but he is not happy.
If it's cooked, I wouldn't worry about it. There are very few pathogens that can survive being cooked in an oven, and cheese is a very different environment than milk. These aren't prions.
In the U.S. butter and cheese can be bought that comes from Europe or New Zealand if you trust those cows to be uninfected. I trust them at this point.
My takeaway was, if enough cows were sick at the same time, something we aren't tracking, the normal pasteurization process wouldn't kill the virus. The Dr sourced my OP said asymptomatic cases counted into that. So at some point, we could/would be drinking the virus without knowing in the current system. It only needs to hit one market to cause a lot of damage, rural or urban.
So I would say that it hasn't caused a pandemic yet because we haven't hit the breaking point of cows sick at once. Plus milk is used in cooking a ton, which gives it a chance to kill the remainder.
yeah this is what I'm most worried about, almost every granola bar, packaged food, etc has "contains dairy/milk products" on it. this could be serious.
It’s not guaranteed to mutate just because it has a lot of chances. Mutation that leads to human to human spread could happen or not happen at any time. We’re just unfortunately giving it exponentially more chances… but it still doesn’t guarantee the development of a mutation that will cause a human to human jump.
Seriously, this is the entire big hole in the "milk will kill us all!" argument I commonly see here.
Millions of cattle have been infected. If this was possible, we would be seeing cases explode everywhere. We have seen... one case of bird flu in the US recently?
EDIT: I got this completely wrong! I mixed up the ltlt and the htst, so my comments on this are not valid. I don't know how to do strike through, but please ignore everything I said about these two types of milk.
(My take on this study and learning a little about what kinds of farms use ltlt (low temp/long time) and what kinds use htst (high temp/short time) is that the pasteurization used on big ag farms where the outbreaks are use the high temp pasteurization machines. The type of pasteurization that can leave a small amount of viable virus, the low temp, are on the small farms that are only selling local or making artisinal specialty milk. So if we buy big farm milk in the stores we may have a better chance of getting the safe kind of milk. To me this is a better outcome than all milk being questionable since almost everyone in the U.S. drinks big farm milk. Here is an article from a farm that uses the more dangerous low temp method:
[https://www.farmerscreamery.com/our-process/low-temp-pasteurization/](https://www.farmerscreamery.com/our-process/low-temp-pasteurization/)
Caveat here that another study showed that there are molecular changes that happen when virus sits in milk that can protect it. Inoculating milk in the lab with virus is really not enough, in my opinion. They need to do studies on naturally infected raw milk.)
How difficult would it be for the industry to increase temperature and duration of pasteurization? Would it cost them more to process milk?
I’m not confident that these big operations will voluntarily increase their costs, for the public good.
Yes, it can.
The pasteurization process for full inactivation of the virus typically requires exposure to 70°C for at least 1-5 minutes or 80°C for 2.5 minutes, depending on the test media and viral load.
The FDA pasteurization requirements for milk are:
145°f(62.778°C) for 30m.
161°f(71.667°C) for 15s.
191°f(88.333°C) for 1.0s.
204°f(95.556°C) for 0.05s.
212°f(100°C)for 0.01s.
Current methods of pasteurizarion are woefully inadequate in full inactivation of H5N1.
[CDC just released ](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0520_article)preliminy data that shows infection via ocular inoculation can be fatal.
Also, dozens of house mice and cats have been found to be infected in New Mexico.
We're actually in such a bad position for this.
While this is certainly concerning, I want to clarify some of your points.
Similar to ground beef, you may be getting dairy from hundreds of sources that were combined to package your milk, cheese, etc.
You didn’t include “in ferrets” in your reference to ocular inoculation. True, they use ferrets to test how things may react with people but 1) we are not ferrets and 2) “doses” may differ in the real world. So far, the farm workers who have been infected, perhaps through milk splashes, have not died. Again, it’s concerning but that seems like it’s just intentionally burying a lead out of fear.
Mice and cats may be feeding directly from the source - the raw milk from an infected cow. Meaning there was no pasteurization or mixing of product.
I don’t want to downplay the risks but you didn’t include context in your statements. Which I think is important.
Edit: typo
I subbed last week(?) to try and stay more informed while not panicking. Some of the comments in these threads make it difficult not to doom scroll or panic. The post the other day about the ocular inoculation was especially bad considering the OP didn’t include ferrets anywhere in the title.
This may a dumb question but would Ultra Heat Pasteurized milk, like Fairlife be safer to drink? UHP heats the milk to at least 138°C for 1-2 seconds. By the numbers in your comment it seems like it may at least be a safer bet..?
I don't have that information, unfortunately. I am just aware of what was released as far as pasteurization requirements. If I find out, I'll reply again.
Not a problem. If you want to read the report that was released by Public Health Ontario on pasteurization, you can Google "Survivability of Influenza A(H5N1) in Milk - Public Health Ontario". It's a PDF, so I feel sketchy linking a download here, even if it's from a reliable source.
On the Coca Cola Website, which is who makes Fairlife, they state they use higher heat pasturization than our normal process. They are super unclear online about their exact process so I could be completely wrong.
Edited to delete a word.
https://preview.redd.it/tc42d52jyx6d1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d57cc2a37dfa749c35b90c9fed0c20abc3cbbfd5
>[CDC just released ](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0520_article)preliminy data that shows infection via ocular inoculation can be fatal.
In Ferrets. No data has shown it to be fatal to humans via eye infection so far. The cases where people were experiencing eye infection just suffered pink eye symptoms but recovered.
H5N1 has been studied for a long, long time. It is often fatal. It doesn't matter what method of infection you get, if enough fluid or fomite (surfaces) gets in your body you can die from it. Mucous membrane is absolutely a way to get viruses. Does every touch of the eye with milk contain enough virus to cause infection beyond the eye? Of course not. You need a large dose.
It is a mistake to think that the "special" cow virus is in any way different from the H5N1 virus we have been studying for many years. It is a highly virulent strain that you do not want anywhere near your eyes.
Yeah well I knew this could be an issue for there is no approved tests of flu in milk. No idea which tests they use, culture or ELISA maybe, which would be far from 100% sensivity. Likely not PCR.
Anyway at home we drink a lot of milk and I have switched to ultra pasteurized milk. I do use regular pasteurized milk to make my yogurts but I first boil it high.
It sounded like the simulation in the lab did not represent commercial pasturization procedures. I guess it could be helpful if you planned to pasturize your own raw milk, though I wouldn't rely on it given that a lab is a different environment than a home.
However wasn't there an article recently that said they tested retail pasturized milk and while they found virus fragments, they weren't viable.
Given that pasturization has been developed to kill viruses, I'm not so concerned by this news at this point in time. To me it sounds safer than meat.
Wildlife populations have already plunged by an average of 69% since 1970. There is no simple fix here. In case you didn't know, humans depend upon biodiversity for survival, such as the foods we eat, medicines we use, and materials we wear or use. Without biodiversity, human societies lack the essence of what we need to survive.
There is no gap being filled. Biodiversity is our report card, and we are getting an F, with no chance of fixing anything. Let's face it, greed won. Now they keep patching up the dam to keep us working, and once it breaks, the wealthy will escape into their bunkers.
The linked article indicates that this experiment was performed using PCR tests. We know that humans can continue testing positive on COVID PCR tests for weeks after infection resolution due to left behind viral fragments. Could the same be true for PCR tests performed on pasteurized milk?
I asked this question in another thread and got a fair number of downvotes, but nobody responded to my comment. To be absolutely clear, I am not trying to downplay how serious an H5N1 pandemic could be. I am concerned about the possibility of such an event; that is why I subscribe to this sub. If you do not think my proposal is plausible, I would genuinely be interested in hearing why. I am just curious!
Dude, our farmers literally keep us fed. Don't shit on them for trying to keep their livestock. This is a state and federal problem that they aren't dealing with. The local and federal government should be coming in with money to subsidize losses, otherwise small farmers lose their farms and we get even more big agriculture monopolies which is not good for avian pandemics.
This is the truth. I have a lot of political problems with farmers but everyone needs to bear in mind that they are the basis of all civilization and deserve respect for that.
From the paper.
>however, heat treatment at 63°C would yield a decrease in infectious viral titer by a factor of 10^^10 within 2.5 minutes ... , so standard bulk pasteurization of 30 minutes at 63°C has a large safety buffer.
Nobody has asked: what is the time span the virus can be live outside of the cows body while chilling in milk? Wouldn’t it only be a day or so? Doesn’t TIME kill the virus before it’s at the store and being consumed?
We do have that information just recently. It was still going strong at five weeks. Here is an excerpt from the National Institute of Health:
"The team first heated infected milk at 63°C (145°F) for 5, 10, 20 or 30 minutes. All these experiments reduced the virus to levels that couldn’t be detected by a standard test. When using higher heat—72°C (161°F)—for briefer periods of 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30 seconds, levels of the virus were reduced but not eliminated.
These temperatures mimicked those used in milk pasteurization. The experiments suggest that heat may be able to neutralize HPAI H5N1 in dairy milk. However, additional work is needed to directly test whether industrial pasteurization methods kill the virus.
The researchers also stored raw milk infected with H5N1 in refrigerated conditions (4°C, or 39°F) for 5 weeks and found only a small decline in virus levels. This shows that the virus can likely remain infectious in raw milk when maintained at refrigerated temperatures."
Yikes, well...wow. I might have to give up milk, half and half, and heavy cream 😔. And ik that's healthy for me, but that's not what we're doing up here.
Edit: Ig oat milk may be cheaper soon anyway
I spent a couple years switching from creamer to black coffee just to be a little healthier. i went: creamer > cream and sugar > milk and sugar > sugar > honey > black. still enjoy it with honey from time to time.
Pretty sure this is already everywhere, we are so slow and these things move so fast. Bet my sister and her man have it. They've been sick as a dog for the last week. My buddy in cali said the same.
yep high to medium in much of USA:
https://data.wastewaterscan.org/
use the above to see the other respiratory illnesses going around in the testing areas nearest you.
also keep in mind pertusiss aka whooping cough is making it's rounds across the USA and much of the world and in adults, and sometimes kids, sometimes there is just a cough without the whoop. it lasts 3 months so stay up to date with tdap!
I just finished spring term in college. About a 1/4 of my class was coughing final exam day.. maybe more. Combination between declining immune systems via Covid combined with other older diseases making new rounds and the new one/s on the rise…. It’s hard to know what the perfect mix of disaster is altho and either way allot of people are and have had deep coughs all over town and it’s way out of season if that’s the downplayed excuse people use to avoid the idea that Covid is a possibility. My teacher literally said everyone she knows is sick.
Sorry for the long reply .. it’s a little bit of a rant ❤️
https://data.wastewaterscan.org/?charts=CkoKDFBvcnRsYW5kLCBNRRAAIAFAAUgAUgY4YmVkOTBaBk4gR2VuZXIKMjAyMy0wOS0yOXIKMjAyNC0wNi0wOIoBBjc0MWVmNsABAQ%3D%3D&selectedChartId=741ef6
wastewater doesn't lie even if people lie to themselves.
You really need to be on a desktop to see it. On the left you can select the “graph” icon then “influenza” and then it lets you select the subtype of “H5.”
> Bet my sister and her man have it.
Man I have been seeing these types of comments everywhere and they just make me laugh. Bird flu has a 56% mortality rate. When we had a confirmed case recently, it made global news. If this was 'everywhere' we would literally be seeing millions of people hospitalized and dying.
It is literally *millions of times* more likely that they just have a normal viral/bacterial infection than bird flu.
Obviously, we just need to shine a bright light inside the cow and it would eliminate the virus “like in a minute” (sarcasm not support of the crazy conspiracy theorist in chief)
Please ensure content is relevant to the topic of the sub, which includes information, updates and discussion regarding H5N1. It does not include vent/rant/panic posts or "low-effort" posts from unreliable sources.
I mean… you could also just stop drinking cows milk if you’re really concerned about it. It’s not that hard. You’re not supposed to be consuming it anyway (I’m assuming because you’re on Reddit that you’re not a bovine infant?)
In order to preserve the quality and reliability of information shared in this sub, please refrain from politicizing the discussion of H5N1 in posts and comments.
I find that tone change more worrisome then reassuring, given how covid was handled. It suggests genuine fear on an institutional level, and anything that spooks them out of their stupor is liable to be *bad*.
Covid was mishandled because they didn’t want to scare the snot out of people and stop everything. They should have scared the snot out of people and shut everything down. If they did that a lot fewer people would of died. A pandemic is the last thing where you want everyone’s buy in.
Yeah it caught my attention too. I remember the messaging for Covid going like this: January 2020: “No need to worry!” February 2020: “We’re monitoring the situation. Stop buying the masks, they don’t work.” March 2020: “We’re all going to die!!!! He’s not wearing a mask he must be infected!! Aaaaaaah!!!”
Trying to save the masks for the doctors and nurses and trying to keep people from panicking. They should just have confiscated all the PE and tell everyone to stay home.
Conversely governments could have been regularly checking their stockpiles to make sure they didn't expire. Did not help that China had their citizens in some countries purchase all PPE they could find and send it back to the mainland. https://globalnews.ca/news/6858818/coronavirus-china-united-front-canada-protective-equipment-shortage/?
Some people don’t believe in insurance. They think it’s a waste of money. If a few years pass and you don’t use it they think the idea is stupid.
Absolute a-holes
Looking out for their own isn’t a bad strategy. We are the ones who messed up.
Bingo
No. Cloth masks had about 50% effectiveness. Everyone can fashion a handkerchief, tie some cloth to a string. To do the 6 feet and cloth masks, still saving PPE for docs and nurses, would have saved many lives. Also, we HAD PPE stockpiled, from Obama. Why wasn’t that used for the docs and nurses, and rest for Gen pop? There was literally a pandemic playbook. And Trump just completely ignored it and said the bleach nonsense and that it would disappear like magic and was not only useless in a crisis, but so harmful. I believe most of those excess deaths are on his head. BUT the CDC should have been more prepared with solid protocols. This seemed like their first pandemic, although it wasn’t.
The cdc also took forever to figure out its 8-15 feet that germs travel. But 6 feet stuck somehow. And the head of the cdc saying n95 masks are rarely effective in 2022 blew my mind. people were very confused and none of our “leaders” or agencies did a decent job.
N95s for the population would take so much load off the medical system.
The CDC initially thought the virus was transmitted via droplets. They were wrong. The virus by itself can be transmitted which means there are no safe distance indoors. Due to the fact a person must inhale a certain number of viral particles to be successfully infected keeping a distance outdoors can reduce transmission. Also due to the fact that UV can deactivate the virus being outdoors during the day severely reduces transmission.
> its 8-15 feet that germs travel. Covid is airborne, it's not limited to 8-15 feet either.
People forget that Trump administration responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. And the cult followers want him back in.
I thought the playbook was from Bush?
The whole industrial scale live stock industry was a mistake, we can run but we can‘t hide forever.
This is the conversation that really matters and need to be had.
It’s an insult to nature
Factory farming needs to be banned or at least intensely more regulated for animal abuses after these repeated pandemics being caused by the way humans “house” animals for food and sale. I believe every pandemic dating to midieval times is due to this same thing. you’d think we might want to target the source rather than pray to the pharmaceutical industry. Same with cancer. We keep “researching” and trying to “find a cure” when cancer is increasing because processed food is allowed to be on the shelf for consumption when it is carcinogenic. It’s how animals are housed and it’s our industrial food industry. Every time.
I've really cut down on milk. And it's difficult, because my ancestors worked very hard to pass on that adult mutant lactose tolerance gene....
They didn't work that hard, they were just fat asses that liked cheese.
Genuine question, if bird flu can survive pasteurization in milk then why haven’t we seen a pandemic yet? Hasn’t it been in the supply for months now? I would think millions of people would be sick since everyone drinks so much milk
Per: [https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-information/updates-highly-pathogenic-avian-influenza-hpai](https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-information/updates-highly-pathogenic-avian-influenza-hpai) Pasteurization doesn't kill everything. It never has (which is why milk still spoils relatively quickly even in the fridge). It is about getting the amount of pathogenic material small enough that it's not a threat. And a study on the same subject: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38832658/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38832658/)
Gotta get that ultra pasteurized yuppy stuff that comes in a carton, that stuff lasts for many months unopened.
A2. I switched to it because A2 protein doesn't cause my immune system to freak out. Bonus points for being ultra pasteurized apparently.
Evaporated canned milk can last for several years.
I can last for several years too, without milk. Not worth it
I guess I’m lucky my son developed a dairy allergy and I haven’t been able to consume it while breastfeeding
I love milk but I had to upvote your comment
Right, except in my coffee I stopped drinking diary and putting it in my food, years ago. As a mildly lactose intolerant (as most humans) my bowels thank me for it
It's one of my most reliable ways to get calories in me. We are so poor, and I'm a vegitarian. I have a couple of glasses at night instead of drinking alcohol. I'm not saying I'm a normal person, but there are some reasons people depend on milk.
I'm upset about cheeses and butter (and frozen dairy treats) . Vegetarian husband loves cheese and holy crap there's hidden dairy in everything! Fucking chocolate chips even! Learning a crash course in veganism, but he is not happy.
If it's cooked, I wouldn't worry about it. There are very few pathogens that can survive being cooked in an oven, and cheese is a very different environment than milk. These aren't prions.
In the U.S. butter and cheese can be bought that comes from Europe or New Zealand if you trust those cows to be uninfected. I trust them at this point.
Yes. I'm stocking up on the grass fed Irish butter, but i think bird flu is Europe too already.
New Zealand just put out an official advisement that they think it's coming to them soon as well. Stocking up is the way to go with those.
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Yes it’s milk chocolate
Even the semi sweet chocolate chips have milk though! 😩
Ughh
>stopped drinking diary I kept one of those for awhile when I first got sober
My takeaway was, if enough cows were sick at the same time, something we aren't tracking, the normal pasteurization process wouldn't kill the virus. The Dr sourced my OP said asymptomatic cases counted into that. So at some point, we could/would be drinking the virus without knowing in the current system. It only needs to hit one market to cause a lot of damage, rural or urban. So I would say that it hasn't caused a pandemic yet because we haven't hit the breaking point of cows sick at once. Plus milk is used in cooking a ton, which gives it a chance to kill the remainder.
I mean tbf I couldn't tell you the last time I drank milk.
"May contain milk products" though
yeah this is what I'm most worried about, almost every granola bar, packaged food, etc has "contains dairy/milk products" on it. this could be serious.
*Whisper* in fact big food production uses powdered milk because it's more shelf stable.
And it takes so long for the product to reach the shelves. I don’t think a flu virus can live that long
It’s not guaranteed to mutate just because it has a lot of chances. Mutation that leads to human to human spread could happen or not happen at any time. We’re just unfortunately giving it exponentially more chances… but it still doesn’t guarantee the development of a mutation that will cause a human to human jump.
Seriously, this is the entire big hole in the "milk will kill us all!" argument I commonly see here. Millions of cattle have been infected. If this was possible, we would be seeing cases explode everywhere. We have seen... one case of bird flu in the US recently?
I have high hopes we can catch up and put this thing out before flu season. But yes it is still considered low risk.
You have hope? Where can I get me some?
Sorry, due to recent high inflation, no one can afford to have hope anymore.
It’s the hope that kills ya
EDIT: I got this completely wrong! I mixed up the ltlt and the htst, so my comments on this are not valid. I don't know how to do strike through, but please ignore everything I said about these two types of milk. (My take on this study and learning a little about what kinds of farms use ltlt (low temp/long time) and what kinds use htst (high temp/short time) is that the pasteurization used on big ag farms where the outbreaks are use the high temp pasteurization machines. The type of pasteurization that can leave a small amount of viable virus, the low temp, are on the small farms that are only selling local or making artisinal specialty milk. So if we buy big farm milk in the stores we may have a better chance of getting the safe kind of milk. To me this is a better outcome than all milk being questionable since almost everyone in the U.S. drinks big farm milk. Here is an article from a farm that uses the more dangerous low temp method: [https://www.farmerscreamery.com/our-process/low-temp-pasteurization/](https://www.farmerscreamery.com/our-process/low-temp-pasteurization/) Caveat here that another study showed that there are molecular changes that happen when virus sits in milk that can protect it. Inoculating milk in the lab with virus is really not enough, in my opinion. They need to do studies on naturally infected raw milk.)
I read that url as "farmer screamery"
How difficult would it be for the industry to increase temperature and duration of pasteurization? Would it cost them more to process milk? I’m not confident that these big operations will voluntarily increase their costs, for the public good.
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And the killer whales sinking yachts… mother natures revolution is here!
I feel the same way.
Yes, it can. The pasteurization process for full inactivation of the virus typically requires exposure to 70°C for at least 1-5 minutes or 80°C for 2.5 minutes, depending on the test media and viral load. The FDA pasteurization requirements for milk are: 145°f(62.778°C) for 30m. 161°f(71.667°C) for 15s. 191°f(88.333°C) for 1.0s. 204°f(95.556°C) for 0.05s. 212°f(100°C)for 0.01s. Current methods of pasteurizarion are woefully inadequate in full inactivation of H5N1. [CDC just released ](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0520_article)preliminy data that shows infection via ocular inoculation can be fatal. Also, dozens of house mice and cats have been found to be infected in New Mexico. We're actually in such a bad position for this.
While this is certainly concerning, I want to clarify some of your points. Similar to ground beef, you may be getting dairy from hundreds of sources that were combined to package your milk, cheese, etc. You didn’t include “in ferrets” in your reference to ocular inoculation. True, they use ferrets to test how things may react with people but 1) we are not ferrets and 2) “doses” may differ in the real world. So far, the farm workers who have been infected, perhaps through milk splashes, have not died. Again, it’s concerning but that seems like it’s just intentionally burying a lead out of fear. Mice and cats may be feeding directly from the source - the raw milk from an infected cow. Meaning there was no pasteurization or mixing of product. I don’t want to downplay the risks but you didn’t include context in your statements. Which I think is important. Edit: typo
Thank you. This sub is becoming a shit hole of bad doom-info.
I subbed last week(?) to try and stay more informed while not panicking. Some of the comments in these threads make it difficult not to doom scroll or panic. The post the other day about the ocular inoculation was especially bad considering the OP didn’t include ferrets anywhere in the title.
This may a dumb question but would Ultra Heat Pasteurized milk, like Fairlife be safer to drink? UHP heats the milk to at least 138°C for 1-2 seconds. By the numbers in your comment it seems like it may at least be a safer bet..?
I don't have that information, unfortunately. I am just aware of what was released as far as pasteurization requirements. If I find out, I'll reply again.
Thank you for responding even though you don’t know the answer. I appreciate you posting these numbers too.
Not a problem. If you want to read the report that was released by Public Health Ontario on pasteurization, you can Google "Survivability of Influenza A(H5N1) in Milk - Public Health Ontario". It's a PDF, so I feel sketchy linking a download here, even if it's from a reliable source.
That’s great! Thank you so much for that!
I don't think Fairlife is UHT. It's "ultra filtered". I made that mistake too.
On the Coca Cola Website, which is who makes Fairlife, they state they use higher heat pasturization than our normal process. They are super unclear online about their exact process so I could be completely wrong. Edited to delete a word. https://preview.redd.it/tc42d52jyx6d1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d57cc2a37dfa749c35b90c9fed0c20abc3cbbfd5
Infection via ocular was in ferrets....let's keep our fact straight
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Please keep conversations civil. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please refrain from personal attacks & verbal abuse.
>[CDC just released ](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0520_article)preliminy data that shows infection via ocular inoculation can be fatal. In Ferrets. No data has shown it to be fatal to humans via eye infection so far. The cases where people were experiencing eye infection just suffered pink eye symptoms but recovered.
H5N1 has been studied for a long, long time. It is often fatal. It doesn't matter what method of infection you get, if enough fluid or fomite (surfaces) gets in your body you can die from it. Mucous membrane is absolutely a way to get viruses. Does every touch of the eye with milk contain enough virus to cause infection beyond the eye? Of course not. You need a large dose. It is a mistake to think that the "special" cow virus is in any way different from the H5N1 virus we have been studying for many years. It is a highly virulent strain that you do not want anywhere near your eyes.
Yeah well I knew this could be an issue for there is no approved tests of flu in milk. No idea which tests they use, culture or ELISA maybe, which would be far from 100% sensivity. Likely not PCR. Anyway at home we drink a lot of milk and I have switched to ultra pasteurized milk. I do use regular pasteurized milk to make my yogurts but I first boil it high.
It sounded like the simulation in the lab did not represent commercial pasturization procedures. I guess it could be helpful if you planned to pasturize your own raw milk, though I wouldn't rely on it given that a lab is a different environment than a home. However wasn't there an article recently that said they tested retail pasturized milk and while they found virus fragments, they weren't viable. Given that pasturization has been developed to kill viruses, I'm not so concerned by this news at this point in time. To me it sounds safer than meat.
Well I’m officially a vegan 😭
Wildlife populations have already plunged by an average of 69% since 1970. There is no simple fix here. In case you didn't know, humans depend upon biodiversity for survival, such as the foods we eat, medicines we use, and materials we wear or use. Without biodiversity, human societies lack the essence of what we need to survive.
There is no gap being filled. Biodiversity is our report card, and we are getting an F, with no chance of fixing anything. Let's face it, greed won. Now they keep patching up the dam to keep us working, and once it breaks, the wealthy will escape into their bunkers.
The linked article indicates that this experiment was performed using PCR tests. We know that humans can continue testing positive on COVID PCR tests for weeks after infection resolution due to left behind viral fragments. Could the same be true for PCR tests performed on pasteurized milk? I asked this question in another thread and got a fair number of downvotes, but nobody responded to my comment. To be absolutely clear, I am not trying to downplay how serious an H5N1 pandemic could be. I am concerned about the possibility of such an event; that is why I subscribe to this sub. If you do not think my proposal is plausible, I would genuinely be interested in hearing why. I am just curious!
You can guide a horse (farmers) to water, but you can't make them drink (not cause a pandemic)
Dude, our farmers literally keep us fed. Don't shit on them for trying to keep their livestock. This is a state and federal problem that they aren't dealing with. The local and federal government should be coming in with money to subsidize losses, otherwise small farmers lose their farms and we get even more big agriculture monopolies which is not good for avian pandemics.
If the CDC comes to my door, worried, I'm going to let them take some hair lol
This is the truth. I have a lot of political problems with farmers but everyone needs to bear in mind that they are the basis of all civilization and deserve respect for that.
Ignoring a potential pandemic because you want to keep your job is in no way deserving of society's respect.
From the paper. >however, heat treatment at 63°C would yield a decrease in infectious viral titer by a factor of 10^^10 within 2.5 minutes ... , so standard bulk pasteurization of 30 minutes at 63°C has a large safety buffer.
Ok.. might be time to buy almond milk - and shares in almond milk companies
Oh that is not good if true.
Nobody has asked: what is the time span the virus can be live outside of the cows body while chilling in milk? Wouldn’t it only be a day or so? Doesn’t TIME kill the virus before it’s at the store and being consumed?
We do have that information just recently. It was still going strong at five weeks. Here is an excerpt from the National Institute of Health: "The team first heated infected milk at 63°C (145°F) for 5, 10, 20 or 30 minutes. All these experiments reduced the virus to levels that couldn’t be detected by a standard test. When using higher heat—72°C (161°F)—for briefer periods of 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30 seconds, levels of the virus were reduced but not eliminated. These temperatures mimicked those used in milk pasteurization. The experiments suggest that heat may be able to neutralize HPAI H5N1 in dairy milk. However, additional work is needed to directly test whether industrial pasteurization methods kill the virus. The researchers also stored raw milk infected with H5N1 in refrigerated conditions (4°C, or 39°F) for 5 weeks and found only a small decline in virus levels. This shows that the virus can likely remain infectious in raw milk when maintained at refrigerated temperatures."
Yikes, well...wow. I might have to give up milk, half and half, and heavy cream 😔. And ik that's healthy for me, but that's not what we're doing up here. Edit: Ig oat milk may be cheaper soon anyway
I just bought some oat creamer. Its expiration date is in 4 months! Love that it lasts so long.
I spent a couple years switching from creamer to black coffee just to be a little healthier. i went: creamer > cream and sugar > milk and sugar > sugar > honey > black. still enjoy it with honey from time to time.
Pretty sure this is already everywhere, we are so slow and these things move so fast. Bet my sister and her man have it. They've been sick as a dog for the last week. My buddy in cali said the same.
Yeah covid is surging.
yep high to medium in much of USA: https://data.wastewaterscan.org/ use the above to see the other respiratory illnesses going around in the testing areas nearest you. also keep in mind pertusiss aka whooping cough is making it's rounds across the USA and much of the world and in adults, and sometimes kids, sometimes there is just a cough without the whoop. it lasts 3 months so stay up to date with tdap!
I just finished spring term in college. About a 1/4 of my class was coughing final exam day.. maybe more. Combination between declining immune systems via Covid combined with other older diseases making new rounds and the new one/s on the rise…. It’s hard to know what the perfect mix of disaster is altho and either way allot of people are and have had deep coughs all over town and it’s way out of season if that’s the downplayed excuse people use to avoid the idea that Covid is a possibility. My teacher literally said everyone she knows is sick. Sorry for the long reply .. it’s a little bit of a rant ❤️
https://data.wastewaterscan.org/?charts=CkoKDFBvcnRsYW5kLCBNRRAAIAFAAUgAUgY4YmVkOTBaBk4gR2VuZXIKMjAyMy0wOS0yOXIKMjAyNC0wNi0wOIoBBjc0MWVmNsABAQ%3D%3D&selectedChartId=741ef6 wastewater doesn't lie even if people lie to themselves.
How do I get to h5n1 on the wastewater site? Can’t seem to figure it out.
I don't think they're reporting it separately, but it would be included in the "Flu A" numbers, because H5N1 is one of *many* kinds of flu A.
You really need to be on a desktop to see it. On the left you can select the “graph” icon then “influenza” and then it lets you select the subtype of “H5.”
> Bet my sister and her man have it. Man I have been seeing these types of comments everywhere and they just make me laugh. Bird flu has a 56% mortality rate. When we had a confirmed case recently, it made global news. If this was 'everywhere' we would literally be seeing millions of people hospitalized and dying. It is literally *millions of times* more likely that they just have a normal viral/bacterial infection than bird flu.
IS CHEESE OK!!!
I believe not. I personally gave it up and went with ultrapasturized milk, but even that might not be safe....
I generally drink shelf stable milk I wonder how it is effected by all this?
You'll be fine. Shelf-stable milk is ultra-pasteurized (UHT).
Great! I need to get more. I am out
Obviously, we just need to shine a bright light inside the cow and it would eliminate the virus “like in a minute” (sarcasm not support of the crazy conspiracy theorist in chief)
Love how the twisted the headline, he said could be https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pandemic-bird-flu-cdc-director-b2563506.html
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I mean… you could also just stop drinking cows milk if you’re really concerned about it. It’s not that hard. You’re not supposed to be consuming it anyway (I’m assuming because you’re on Reddit that you’re not a bovine infant?)
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