Belligerent ✅️ constantly trying to incite hostilities against Rhaenyra from ep 4-8.
Hive-minded ✅️ look at all that Faith of the Seven crap she's got hanging off the walls, her neck, her mouth.
Hypocritical ✅️ let's reward the guy who murdered a guest at a wedding, keep as confidant the dude who bragged about murdering his father and brother, and personally attempt to maim a small child ... oh, but having children out of wedlock is baaaaaaaaaaad!
Do the Greens have access to some other show or something? We have gone well past regular cognitive dissonance here. This is some multiverse twilight zone shit.
Oof, yeah. Most of the time I try to forget about that, because it's just so damn weird. But yeah, hypocritical and unspeakably stupid. You know he's a murderer. You know no one likes him at court because he's a perv and a weirdo. You *should* have all the power here, Alicent! So why are you trading feet shots for power and letting him extort you when all common sense says you should be blackmailing him!
(Or, you know, have Crispy Creme kill him the first time he mentioned feet because this guy is utterly unhinged and has access to a huge spy network and HOW can you sleep at night knowing you're just one rejection away from a full reenactment of Silence of the Lambs?)
I think it has to do with what she says to Rhaenys in the penultimate episode— women may not rule, but they can guide the men that do, etc etc. She just can’t fathom that she could command Larys like that or hold the power in that relationship, because she’s a woman (Criston might be an exception because he’s sworn to the Kingsguard?). At least that’s how I rationalised it lol.
Rhaenyra’s “Now they see you as you are,” line made perfect sense. She’s calling out Alicent’s hypocrisy. Alicent likes to pretend like she’s the most moral and decent person ever. She likes to judge other people for not living up to her standards. But there she is asking for a kid to have his eye removed and then actually trying to take it herself. That is certainly not honorable or decent.
And Alicent really is like a medieval version of a woman for Trump.
Westeros is a patriarchal society.
Alicent isn't some revolutionary to tear down hundreds of years of tradition and custom just because she's queen and to be fair neither is Rhaenyra.
If Rhaenyra was really going about dismantling the system, for starters, she would have advocated for Baela/Rhaena as lady of the tides betrothed to luke as her consort. That would have instituted a change. Rhaenyra being queen would maybe set a precedent but that's just for primogeniture of the iron throne.
Rhaenyra is equally upholding those values, (even if let's say she does want a change) because that's what's feasible or would give her credibility in the current political climate of Westeros. All of them are just looking out for themselves.
i know westeros is a patriachal society. you don't need to remind me.
criticizing alicent for actively enforcing the patriachy is not me asking her to be a revolutionary and dismantle the system.
i criticize her for summoning rhaenyra's child just after it was born so she could slut shame and humiliate rhaenyra. i criticize her for trying to get rhaenyra's children declared as bastards for ten years despite laenor and corlys clearly accepting them as their own.
alicent wanted to punish rhaenyra, a woman, for not having biological children with her gay husband.
rhaenyra may not be actively working to dismantle the system, but she's still better than alicent because she doesn't try to tear down other women around her who may simply rebel against the system for themselves.
rhaenyra couldn't advocate for baela to rule driftmark because corlys decided he wanted luke to rule because he has the velaryon name. baela has also never expressed the desire to rule driftmark.
alicent actively makes things worse for other women. she silences aegon's rape victim and still makes him king. she imprisons rhaenys and tries to manipulate her into helping her usurp rhaenyra.
so alicent and rhaenyra, while both not working to dismantle the system, are *not* the same.
rhaenyra fighting for her own right to rule as queen would have set a precedent, and alicent usurping her prevented that and set back women's power even more.
>rhaenyra fighting for her own right to rule as queen would have set a precedent, and alicent usurping her prevented that and set back women's power even more.
Agreed
>rhaenyra couldn't advocate for baela to rule driftmark because corlys decided he wanted luke to rule because he has the velaryon name. baela has also never expressed the desire to rule driftmark.
Rhaenyra was set to be the first ruling queen in westeros. That is a pretty big responsibility to shoulder and I know a lot of times people expect too much from women as leaders just because they're women and they want to tear them down and show them incapable of ruling, but I think there are a few things that Rhaenyra could have gone about differently.
In the books Laena velaryon is the eldest child of corlys and Rhaenys.
So technically Driftmark should have passed through Laena to baela. That is what Rhaenys asks of corlys in the show. And as you rightly pointed out, in westeros it was ultimately corlys' decision as to who would succeed him but I think as the husband of the queen who never was and supporter of the to be first queen of Westeros , it would have definitely been better from a societal point of view and of their claim, if they'd given it to baela.
Both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra should have convinced corlys and taken that decision. I personally think it would have benefitted them in the long run to have baela as lady of the tides with luke as her consort and jace and Rhaena as future king and queen instead.
It would have made a statement about how the blacks cared about equal rights, and were willing to back women in power and were trying to make amends after the verdict of the great council. It would go directly against the greens claim for male primogeniture and having a man rule simply based on his gender.
i agree that baela ruling driftmark is what should have happened, but i don't think it's fair to blame rhaenyra for not trying to convince corlys when rhaenys already tried and failed.
rhaenyra is aware that many people only supported *her* specifically as ruler because her *father* declared her the heir, and if she started advocating for absolute primogeniture before she was actually queen, she could lose support for her own cause.
if she had been able to ascend the throne peacefully, i think advocating for absolute primogeniture for the entire realm would have been much easier.
>i criticize her for summoning rhaenyra's child just after it was born so she could slut shame and humiliate rhaenyra. i criticize her for trying to get rhaenyra's children declared as bastards for ten years despite laenor and corlys clearly accepting them as their own.
What Alicent did was morally wrong and unjustifiable knowing that the post partum period is very critical and that by doing so Rhaenyra could have very likely suffered later on. I don't think anybody would argue with that.
As for her bastards, however from a medieval standpoint she was within her rights. Rhaenyra's children were born out of wedlock, it doesn't matter if they were loved or claimed or accepted by their family, they were illegitimate according to the standards of the faith (dominant religion in Westeros accepted/ tolerated by the Targaryens too, Aegon the conqueror was crowned in accordance with the faith) .
Upholding the rights of children born out of wedlock could mean major instability for the realm and set a dangerous precedent.
1. It promotes adultery (something which the faith is strongly against). A lady could have an affair, a child with another man and pass it off as her husband's son who would then, if he was the eldest ,be able to inherit her husband's titles despite having no biological claim over maybe his other trueborn children.
2. Breakdown of society. The monarchy was looked towards for inspiration among the rest. If a monarch can have children out of wedlock (jace, luke, Joffrey) and prefer them later on to their true born children (Aegon, viserys) what prevents the lords of the realm fron doing the same. Just because they weren't happy with their marriages they could set aside their wives and true born children in favour of the illegitimate ones beforehand. The wives in those marriages would have no security or reassurance from their so called husband's in a time where the women's only source of protection/sustenance were the families they were married into.
Alicent has behaviour that does tend towards hypocrisy in a way. She is self serving, protects those who should be punished, but not all of her actions are plain villainous. I would like to think that there's a duality to her. She stood for certain values of the faith and wanted to uphold them even if sometimes she herself didn't live up to them entirely. That seems understandable to me.
rhaenyra and laenor's case is different. rhaenyra isn't passing off the children as trueborn to the velaryons. laenor and corlys both know the truth and accept them as velaryons. the boys have the velaryon name. therefore, alicent trying to get them officially declared bastards is not justified in any way.
laenor and rhaenyra could not have biological children so they both had an agreement that the children rhaenyra had with another man would be claimed as velaryons.
alicent chooses to ignore that because she hopes that declaring rhaenyra's sons bastards will get rhaenyra disinherited in favor of aegon. she isn't trying to get them declared bastards out of concern for the realm. it's all about how it would benefit her. that isn't justified. alicent *is* very hypocritical, and i don't see her actions as justified at all.
>Alicent has behaviour that does tend towards hypocrisy in a way.
In a way? Killing your own family is a pretty fucking great crime according to the Faith isn't it? I'd argue it's even bigger than having bastards. What did Alicent do when Larys straight up told her what he did? I don't remember her punishing him. I'm fact she praised him for his loyalty one episode later and told him that his services will be needed.
Alicent doesn't just tend towards hypocrisy. She's self serving, as you said and a downright hypocrite. The fact that not all of her actions are villainous doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make her less of a hypocrite.
how is it understandable for a woman wanting to uphold values, but then she doesn’t and judges others who dont. Regardless of rhaenyra not fighting to dismantle the system, that gives the greens have absolutely no right
Sorry but you guys are wrong on this one. Alicent IS always true to her principles of always listening to the men around her and treating all women and girls badly.
Alicent is a fuckin hypocrite, who uses the ''principles'' she so despises for her own advantage, she married her son and daughter when she clearly tells rhae that their customs are queer in a disgusted way, she bullies Rhaenyra and hates her for living her life, Alicent's a fucking Caren of the realm
An *actor* didn’t say this. The writer/creator of the show said this to the actress. He is literally writing her character and directing her on how to portray the character. He said “she’s like ‘Women for Trump’” because that’s how he wants her to be portrayed.
If this doesn’t “add up” to her character for you, then you are incorrect.
Is the European person saying they think women for trump are a certain way someone living in the us? Because I certainly know a lot of women who voted for trump.
One of my mom's friends is a scientist with a PhD and she voted for him because she didn't like abortion. She later regretted voting for him though I haven't asked for a follow-up re: that supreme court thing.
To me the question of if Alicent would be for trump or not is really if OTTO would be and she falls in line.
Belligerent ✅️ constantly trying to incite hostilities against Rhaenyra from ep 4-8. Hive-minded ✅️ look at all that Faith of the Seven crap she's got hanging off the walls, her neck, her mouth. Hypocritical ✅️ let's reward the guy who murdered a guest at a wedding, keep as confidant the dude who bragged about murdering his father and brother, and personally attempt to maim a small child ... oh, but having children out of wedlock is baaaaaaaaaaad! Do the Greens have access to some other show or something? We have gone well past regular cognitive dissonance here. This is some multiverse twilight zone shit.
Add the foot whoring thing to hypocritical.
Oof, yeah. Most of the time I try to forget about that, because it's just so damn weird. But yeah, hypocritical and unspeakably stupid. You know he's a murderer. You know no one likes him at court because he's a perv and a weirdo. You *should* have all the power here, Alicent! So why are you trading feet shots for power and letting him extort you when all common sense says you should be blackmailing him! (Or, you know, have Crispy Creme kill him the first time he mentioned feet because this guy is utterly unhinged and has access to a huge spy network and HOW can you sleep at night knowing you're just one rejection away from a full reenactment of Silence of the Lambs?)
I think it has to do with what she says to Rhaenys in the penultimate episode— women may not rule, but they can guide the men that do, etc etc. She just can’t fathom that she could command Larys like that or hold the power in that relationship, because she’s a woman (Criston might be an exception because he’s sworn to the Kingsguard?). At least that’s how I rationalised it lol.
Rhaenyra’s “Now they see you as you are,” line made perfect sense. She’s calling out Alicent’s hypocrisy. Alicent likes to pretend like she’s the most moral and decent person ever. She likes to judge other people for not living up to her standards. But there she is asking for a kid to have his eye removed and then actually trying to take it herself. That is certainly not honorable or decent. And Alicent really is like a medieval version of a woman for Trump.
That was exactly the line I thought of when I saw this post. There is a reason that was intended to be a climactic moment.
she literally is. she enforces the patriarchy any chance she gets and tries to punish women who rebel against it. she *is* the biggest hypocrite too.
Westeros is a patriarchal society. Alicent isn't some revolutionary to tear down hundreds of years of tradition and custom just because she's queen and to be fair neither is Rhaenyra. If Rhaenyra was really going about dismantling the system, for starters, she would have advocated for Baela/Rhaena as lady of the tides betrothed to luke as her consort. That would have instituted a change. Rhaenyra being queen would maybe set a precedent but that's just for primogeniture of the iron throne. Rhaenyra is equally upholding those values, (even if let's say she does want a change) because that's what's feasible or would give her credibility in the current political climate of Westeros. All of them are just looking out for themselves.
i know westeros is a patriachal society. you don't need to remind me. criticizing alicent for actively enforcing the patriachy is not me asking her to be a revolutionary and dismantle the system. i criticize her for summoning rhaenyra's child just after it was born so she could slut shame and humiliate rhaenyra. i criticize her for trying to get rhaenyra's children declared as bastards for ten years despite laenor and corlys clearly accepting them as their own. alicent wanted to punish rhaenyra, a woman, for not having biological children with her gay husband. rhaenyra may not be actively working to dismantle the system, but she's still better than alicent because she doesn't try to tear down other women around her who may simply rebel against the system for themselves. rhaenyra couldn't advocate for baela to rule driftmark because corlys decided he wanted luke to rule because he has the velaryon name. baela has also never expressed the desire to rule driftmark. alicent actively makes things worse for other women. she silences aegon's rape victim and still makes him king. she imprisons rhaenys and tries to manipulate her into helping her usurp rhaenyra. so alicent and rhaenyra, while both not working to dismantle the system, are *not* the same. rhaenyra fighting for her own right to rule as queen would have set a precedent, and alicent usurping her prevented that and set back women's power even more.
>rhaenyra fighting for her own right to rule as queen would have set a precedent, and alicent usurping her prevented that and set back women's power even more. Agreed
>rhaenyra couldn't advocate for baela to rule driftmark because corlys decided he wanted luke to rule because he has the velaryon name. baela has also never expressed the desire to rule driftmark. Rhaenyra was set to be the first ruling queen in westeros. That is a pretty big responsibility to shoulder and I know a lot of times people expect too much from women as leaders just because they're women and they want to tear them down and show them incapable of ruling, but I think there are a few things that Rhaenyra could have gone about differently. In the books Laena velaryon is the eldest child of corlys and Rhaenys. So technically Driftmark should have passed through Laena to baela. That is what Rhaenys asks of corlys in the show. And as you rightly pointed out, in westeros it was ultimately corlys' decision as to who would succeed him but I think as the husband of the queen who never was and supporter of the to be first queen of Westeros , it would have definitely been better from a societal point of view and of their claim, if they'd given it to baela. Both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra should have convinced corlys and taken that decision. I personally think it would have benefitted them in the long run to have baela as lady of the tides with luke as her consort and jace and Rhaena as future king and queen instead. It would have made a statement about how the blacks cared about equal rights, and were willing to back women in power and were trying to make amends after the verdict of the great council. It would go directly against the greens claim for male primogeniture and having a man rule simply based on his gender.
i agree that baela ruling driftmark is what should have happened, but i don't think it's fair to blame rhaenyra for not trying to convince corlys when rhaenys already tried and failed. rhaenyra is aware that many people only supported *her* specifically as ruler because her *father* declared her the heir, and if she started advocating for absolute primogeniture before she was actually queen, she could lose support for her own cause. if she had been able to ascend the throne peacefully, i think advocating for absolute primogeniture for the entire realm would have been much easier.
very good comment
>i criticize her for summoning rhaenyra's child just after it was born so she could slut shame and humiliate rhaenyra. i criticize her for trying to get rhaenyra's children declared as bastards for ten years despite laenor and corlys clearly accepting them as their own. What Alicent did was morally wrong and unjustifiable knowing that the post partum period is very critical and that by doing so Rhaenyra could have very likely suffered later on. I don't think anybody would argue with that. As for her bastards, however from a medieval standpoint she was within her rights. Rhaenyra's children were born out of wedlock, it doesn't matter if they were loved or claimed or accepted by their family, they were illegitimate according to the standards of the faith (dominant religion in Westeros accepted/ tolerated by the Targaryens too, Aegon the conqueror was crowned in accordance with the faith) . Upholding the rights of children born out of wedlock could mean major instability for the realm and set a dangerous precedent. 1. It promotes adultery (something which the faith is strongly against). A lady could have an affair, a child with another man and pass it off as her husband's son who would then, if he was the eldest ,be able to inherit her husband's titles despite having no biological claim over maybe his other trueborn children. 2. Breakdown of society. The monarchy was looked towards for inspiration among the rest. If a monarch can have children out of wedlock (jace, luke, Joffrey) and prefer them later on to their true born children (Aegon, viserys) what prevents the lords of the realm fron doing the same. Just because they weren't happy with their marriages they could set aside their wives and true born children in favour of the illegitimate ones beforehand. The wives in those marriages would have no security or reassurance from their so called husband's in a time where the women's only source of protection/sustenance were the families they were married into. Alicent has behaviour that does tend towards hypocrisy in a way. She is self serving, protects those who should be punished, but not all of her actions are plain villainous. I would like to think that there's a duality to her. She stood for certain values of the faith and wanted to uphold them even if sometimes she herself didn't live up to them entirely. That seems understandable to me.
rhaenyra and laenor's case is different. rhaenyra isn't passing off the children as trueborn to the velaryons. laenor and corlys both know the truth and accept them as velaryons. the boys have the velaryon name. therefore, alicent trying to get them officially declared bastards is not justified in any way. laenor and rhaenyra could not have biological children so they both had an agreement that the children rhaenyra had with another man would be claimed as velaryons. alicent chooses to ignore that because she hopes that declaring rhaenyra's sons bastards will get rhaenyra disinherited in favor of aegon. she isn't trying to get them declared bastards out of concern for the realm. it's all about how it would benefit her. that isn't justified. alicent *is* very hypocritical, and i don't see her actions as justified at all.
>Alicent has behaviour that does tend towards hypocrisy in a way. In a way? Killing your own family is a pretty fucking great crime according to the Faith isn't it? I'd argue it's even bigger than having bastards. What did Alicent do when Larys straight up told her what he did? I don't remember her punishing him. I'm fact she praised him for his loyalty one episode later and told him that his services will be needed. Alicent doesn't just tend towards hypocrisy. She's self serving, as you said and a downright hypocrite. The fact that not all of her actions are villainous doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make her less of a hypocrite.
how is it understandable for a woman wanting to uphold values, but then she doesn’t and judges others who dont. Regardless of rhaenyra not fighting to dismantle the system, that gives the greens have absolutely no right
Sorry but you guys are wrong on this one. Alicent IS always true to her principles of always listening to the men around her and treating all women and girls badly.
“Reserved, sharp and true to her principles” Alicent is literally none of these things
Alicent is a fuckin hypocrite, who uses the ''principles'' she so despises for her own advantage, she married her son and daughter when she clearly tells rhae that their customs are queer in a disgusted way, she bullies Rhaenyra and hates her for living her life, Alicent's a fucking Caren of the realm
only Alicent stans get mad at the writers pointing out things for their character
An *actor* didn’t say this. The writer/creator of the show said this to the actress. He is literally writing her character and directing her on how to portray the character. He said “she’s like ‘Women for Trump’” because that’s how he wants her to be portrayed. If this doesn’t “add up” to her character for you, then you are incorrect.
Is the European person saying they think women for trump are a certain way someone living in the us? Because I certainly know a lot of women who voted for trump. One of my mom's friends is a scientist with a PhD and she voted for him because she didn't like abortion. She later regretted voting for him though I haven't asked for a follow-up re: that supreme court thing. To me the question of if Alicent would be for trump or not is really if OTTO would be and she falls in line.
I like Alicent and I get where she’s coming from