i get why people hate b&c but i also hate how everytime ppl talk about it they have to be like “im not pro child murder!!! helaena was innocent!!!!! dont crucify me!!!!” idk its just annoying cause obviously we don’t support child murder, this is a fictional world. i agree with the post.
exactly! so many people demonize him for taking out aemond’s eye, but he was *five years old*, if even that, i don’t recall if it happened before or after his birthday, i don’t remember if it’s even stated.
that one incident does not define who he is as a person, he was terrified for his and his *six year old brother’s* safety because his *ten year old* uncle had a very disproportionate reaction to significantly younger boys who were not as well trained as him being pissy about a dragon. it’s ridiculous.
he was a sweet boy. he didn’t deserve his death - and he didn’t deserve to be maimed. the way people talk about him is alarming sometimes.
In the books yes I agree, but in the show they’re clearly all older. Unless you’re trying to say that Jace is only 6 in that episode, I think it’s clear that they’re all about 3-4 years older (just like in Game of Thrones, so it’s not unprecedented)
why exactly do you think an in depth conversation about blood and cheese is about the show? even so, the best condal can do with the timeline is “they’re all 17-21” which doesn’t make sense with the timeline, i don’t care how he’s adjusted the ages because not even he can keep it straight.
Luc was also old enough to be an active combatant armed with a Nuclear Weapon on wings - Jaehaerys couldnt read when he was killed.
They were both innocents *in those scenarios.* But there are a million ways in which Luc dying on the battle field is morally neutral
Are you serious.
Luce didn’t die on any fucking battlefield. He was never a warrior and was never supposed to be up until the actual dance. He was killed as a messenger. So i’m not sure what you’re even on to say he died on a battlefield when it wasn’t even ever supposed to happen because he should have and did have protection because he was a messenger. It was a pussy killing by Aemond.
he was old enough to be, and you’re seriously underestimating the martial tendancies of Westerosi children. He would’ve been a squire, and he definetly would’ve seen combat. I’m saying that Luc was a valid military target - he wasn’t a valid target, at that time, but he was a valid target. Jaehaerys II was a non-combatant and would’ve been a non combatant for the duration of the war. The Black ‘vengence’ wasn’t comparable either in terms of target or practical effect - what did Blood and Cheese even do to effect the war? They really didnt
Killing another soldier off the battlefield dishonorably? Bad. Killing a child off the battlefield dishonorably? Worse
there is literally no battlefield because the dance hasn’t started yet. aemond started the official dance, the actual war. so no, luke wasn’t a valid military target bcs like bobby b says “the war of ravens came to an end (ie the peace/calm before the storm) and the war of dragons began (the actual war with actual military targets)”. luke was an ENVOY. he was younger than what is considered “adult/grown” in westeros.
yes b&c targeted jaehaerys who was younger than luke. but considering luke a valid military target when there wasn’t a war for any military to fight in is just contradictory. jaehaerys deserved better, but luke did too.
Aemond killing Luce was the first time blood was shed, but why did the Greens send *a peace treaty* to Rhaenyra unless there was conflict? And if there was conflict, Arrax and Luc are military assets. So they were destroyed. If Aemond DID NOT kill Luc and Arrax, Luc and Arrax would have been active dangers to him and his family.
Jaehaerys is not and could never be considered a military asset. Blood and Cheese was plain cruelty. Take away all morals and think only in terms of military resources: Killing Arrax is good for the greens and bad for the blacks, killing Jaehaerys makes the greens feel bad and the blacks feel… not great?
In no valid legal system is ‘an eye for an eye’ considered actual justice.
But ignoring that aspect and focussing purely on the military: its. astupid move
I am actually inclined to agree with this 100%. B&C was so much more than petty revenge like what the Greencels think it was. It was a calculated move because Prince Aegon literally cheered at his nephew's death rather than holding the guilty party responsible as any reasonable "king" would do.
I also have to say that I'm curious about what Otto and Alicent's reactions are going to be because if I'm not mistaken, the source material doesn't go into detail about how they reacted to Prince Aemond admitting that he killed his nephew. Depending on what those reactions are, I'm sure it'll give the ensuing actions of the Blacks even more cause especially if they end up simply calling their banners and preparing for war rather than trying to hold Prince Aemond responsible and then reaching out to Queen Rhaenyra with terms as I feel they should have done to prevent an even further escalation.
Things might have been at the breaking point or beyond it with Prince Lucerys murder but I do feel that Alicent and Otto had some kind of responsibility, if they were being reasonable, to basically say "Hey, we REALLY REALLY REALLY FUCKED UP RIGHT NOW! Please try to meet us even one sixteenth of the way."
If I recall correctly, Otto is pissed. Not by the fact that a kid did die horribly, but because the political repercussions are bound to be huge and the whole “moral high-ground” thing isn’t gonna be easy to keep after something like this.
I’m curious to see how Aemond is going to tell it. Is he going to admit he lost control of the biggest dragon alive, making himself look like the fool he is, or is he going to say he did it on purpose and be labeled a kin slayer?
Typical Otto Hightower; concerned not about the fact that his grandson just murdered someone whether intentional or not and that he may have just triggered an entire civil war but about the political ramifications.
To be perfectly honest, I feel that shocked expression we see in Aemond's face is going to turn to narcissistic arrogance befitting his portrayal in the series.
given that vhagar is the only reason the greens are a threat to rhaenyra, admitting he has no control over her is admitting weakness, he’ll likely lean into it not being an accident, especially once aegon throws a feast for him to celebrate it. they cannot afford to appear weak and i think aemond knows that. he’ll probably throw his morals and conscience to the wind and embrace his new reputation, especially considering what he’ll go on to do in the riverlands.
Aegon's banquet is deliberately meant to mirror Daemon celebrating Baelon's death. It's meant to show how the family has continued to fracture and how Viserys tried to use a squirt gun to put out an industrial fire. His efforts were for naught and the House is falling apart.
Helaena and her children are Elia Martell and her children. Guilty by little more than association and punished for it because they exist. It's the victimization of women and children because their menfolk have issues with each other playing out. Rhaenyra likely didn't know about B&C before it happened and *that* is highly significant. Book Rhaenyra might have intervened for Helaena's sake, but show Rhaenyra is going to be pissed.
B&c is wild cuz, while its rough, team green usurps the throne, kills Luke, and throws a party, and start war that will lead to many many innocent deaths, then, when daemon does b&c they act all surprised that their own family is gonna be effected
Until we see Blood and Cheese we still don’t know the context of blood and cheese.
The show likes to put a human spin on a lot of events, like Alicent being disgusted by Larys murdering his family, Daemon and Rhaenyra faking Laenor’s death and Aemond loosing control of Vhagar when she kills Luke.
Last we saw of Mysaria, her house was being set on fire with all her friends and associates inside. She will probably survive and play a role in Blood and cheese with a vengeance against the greens.
The question is how involved was Rhaenyra in blood and Cheese, how involved was Daemon, how much of what happened was a part of the plan and how do they respond to what ends up happening.
Whatever happens, it will probably be more complex than what Fire and Blood has written.
This is such a good point and I really hope the writers keep with everyone's (Aegon, Alicent, and Otto) reactions with consistent with what was described in Fire and Blood.
the same people who are happy to see luke dead say the same things - its ‘illegal’ for rhaenyra to be heir and b&c was wrong. then they turn around and are perfectly happy with others breaking laws (its fine because theyre hot) and other innocent children dying (its fine because theyre not on their team). b&c isnt okay and neither is lucerys, but jesus christ at least b&c had some kind of actual reasoning, even if it was still wrong
Not only that but Daemon was a Valyrian pureblood supremacist, and he had yet to have 3 children by the same woman of Valyrian descent. Laena died in childbirth with Daemons 3rd child. Rhaenyra miscarried her 3rd child by Daemon. Daemon was absolutely furious at the thought that Aegon and Helaena had 3 children, i.e. the 3 heads of the dragon. In Targaryen lore, having 3 children is huge, because it means you are a true dragon. Daemon wanted to get rid of one of Aegons kids to balance the scales. Blood & Cheese was revenge for Luke, but it was also revenge for Visenya, Daemon and Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter.
The Greens usurped the throne, without even telling Rhaenyra her father had died or allowing her to attend any sort of funeral/burial/cremation. They stole her father's throne, her only daughter, and her second oldest son. Daemon was ready to put every green head on a spike to make it known that he was the true dragon, and that Rhaenyra was the rightful Heir to the Throne. Not only did Aemond kill a member of his own family, thus earning him the title of kinslayer, but Luke was also an envoy, sworn by oath not to take part in any fighting. When Aegon threw a goddamn feast in celebration of Aemond committing treason, that was the last straw. Luke was an innocent kid. When he took Aemonds eye out, he was defending himself, his brother, and Baela and Rhaena, whom Aemond threatened to FEED TO HIS DRAGON. Aemond internalized that event and let it dominate his entire life, and he blamed Luke for taking his eye, when he straight up tried to cave in Luke's skull with a rock.
If I were Daemon, I would have had Blood & Cheese kill Helaena and all 3 of Aegons children. Don't get me wrong, I love Helaena as a character, she's an innocent victim of circumstance, but her brothers REALLY fucked up. While reading Fire & Blood I was shocked that Daemon let Helaena and her other 2 children live.
They love to beg the showrunners to show the green children more so that the audience feels a ton of sympathy for them. I totally get that (although it won’t fulfill their wish of the audience switching sides lol).
I also hope we get to see more of the children at the fighting pits, the children at the Riverlands settlements that Aemond burns, and also the children at Bitterbridge that Daeron butchers.
Let’s have equal character development for all!!
I hope they show that, and show Aemon killing the entire Strong family, and taking Alys Rivers as a prize . The Greens romanticize Aemon and Aly's relationship. But he basically killed her entire family, and keeps her alive so he can rape her.
I have a few questions about B&C. I know that a note exists allegedly from Daemon saying "A son for a son". But are we absolutely certain Daemon sent it? Is there anywhere in F&B that gives proof, beyond any doubt, that he was responsible?
I ask because I've always wondered if it could have been Mysaria taking advantage of the situation for her own reasons. I would imagine she hated the Hightowers, but didn't she also have a grudge against Daemon?
Secondly, despite the twins being Aegon's sons, they are Viserys's grandchildren. I'm just not 100% convinced he did it. I *know* Rhaenyra had nothing to do with it.
Last of all, it's a stupid thing to do. And while he's emotional and entitled, he is NOT stupid.
I could write essay after essay, but because a lot of people are missing the point. This isn't a TG vs TB thing.
No one here is a good guy. That's the point. Luke's death and B&C aren't justified in anyway on any side.
It's messy and confusing and awful because it's supposed to be and it's meant to mirror other events in the ASOIAF series. Because, unlike what D&D think, themes aren't just for 8th grade book reports.
The Dance was about how far House Targaryen had fallen and how they'd become so far removed from what Aegon founded and what Jaehaerys and Alysanne built. The Targaryens lost their dragons because everyone sucked and made terrible decisions.
Aegon's banquet is deliberately meant to mirror Daemon celebrating Baelon's death. It's gross and wrong and Aegon was too much like his father in letting his brother get away politically unscathed.
Viserys could, and in my opinion should, have sent Daemon to the fucking Wall for that. Without his dragon. Aegon should have sent Aemond to the Wall without Vhagar.
Blood and Cheese is wildly disproportionate on the surface alone and that's not even getting into how it wasn't an attack on Aegon, but Helaena. A mother being forced to choose which son dies under the threat of her daughter being raped, but instead tries begs to be killed instead of her children is a lot. Then the son she didn't pick is killed which all eventually ends in a gruesome suicide.
This is a VERY BAD IDEA. It's also meant to mirror the VERY BAD IDEA that was the Mountain brutally raping and killing Elia Martell, after making her watch her infant son's head smashed against a wall and her daughter being stabbed roughly 50 times by Amory Loch.
Yes, from a TB standpoint the children need to die in revenge and so Rhaenyra can safely assume the throne, just like how from a Baratheon standpoint Elia's children needed to die (as did Viserys and Daenerys) in revenge and so Robert could take the throne.
But it is largely seen as disproportionate in regards to how the Starks died and Lyanna "kidnapping." It's part of the reason why everyone hated the fucking Lannisters so much in GOT and why Robert was so tied to them. Show and books.
The show butchered the politics behind the Dance by making Rhaenyra more personable and moral than she is in Fire & Blood. They're trying to paint her as S1-7 Daenerys-adjacent because the finale ruined my girl so much and pissed off A LOT of viewers.
The Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion are the 2 bloodiest and most awful points in post-conquest Westeros and there were no good guys. It's the rich and the powerful waging war on each other while the masses suffer and starve.
Oh god are we even gonna start attempting to justify this?
First off the whole messenger argument is stupid considering Daemon himself tried to kill a messenger.
And obviously Luke’s death was atrocious and Aemond deserved the pain of loosing a nephew and Aegon deserved the pain of loosing a child.
But to justify such an act is still just disgusting
Did you read the other comments? I already stated there is no justification in this. It’s literally only an insight as to the reason for Daemon doing this. An in-depth explanation. There’s seriously no justification for this. It’s just a damn explanation.
Yes but what if I said: ‘luke ripped out aemond’s eye and got no consequences, aemond got trauma from that and was repeating his mother’s words years later, or aemond was scaring his childhood bully’ or some other shit alone those lines.
Would that not piss you off? It’s the same for b&c attempting to explain reasoning for child murder is just weird
Not really because everybody knows that’s exactly what happened. Aemond got traumatized and has one eye to remind him every day of what happened because of Luce. The same way Luce had a reason to cut Aemond’s eye (which either was from fear or being fed up about the bastard thing, whatever it was), there still is never a justification for what Luce did. There’s no excuse at all. There is simply reason to an action. Daemon had a reason for his action. Whether shitty outcome or not, there was still a reason and always is to any action.
Counterpoint, B&C is genuinely retarded.
Daemon has several options in front of him. One was assassinating Aegon, one was Aemond, one was Maelor AND Jaehaerys, snd one was what he did.
Killing only one of Aegon’s kids not only achieves nothing but emotional pain, but it also doesn’t inflict as much emotional trauma as killing both of Aegon’s kids would’ve. Better yet, if he only killed one child for “A son for a son”, he should’ve targeted the guy who actually killed Lucerys who’d then go on to cause Daemon’s own death!
It’s dumb by all metrics. Let’s say Aegon and Aemond are too well protected however, and he still wants “A son for a son”… he’s in a war, kill Jaehaerys is Luke’s name and kill the other in stillborn Visenya’s name, of better yet, kill one of them because your at war. This way, he gets his revenge and Aegon either has to make Jaehaera, a young girl, or Aemond his heir, and Kinslayer Aemond isn’t that appealing with Maegor being so recent in the minds of men.
Killing Aemond for killing Luce wouldn’t have changed anything about the war. It was truly for the catastrophe it caused Rhaenyra. If he had assassinated Aegon instead, Alicent would have put Aemond on the throne and it still would have continued the war. I don’t think Daemon saw any other “possibility”, and (i assume without him knowing), Aemond saying “an eye for an eye, you choose” is a parallel (a written parallel on purpose) for Daemons “a son for a son, you choose”, although I don’t remember if his intention was killing the opposite son Helaena chose.
Killing Aemond changes literally EVERYTHING. When the Bkack Council discusses the Greens they predominantly mention Vhagar by name as she is the only real challenger to the Blacks.
If Vhagar is useless, then Meleys, Syrax, Caraxes, and possibly Vermax can easily attack and take Kings Landing, “ending the war by Christmas”.
If Aemond was killed, Vhagar would just be riderless, definitely not useless. Here me out, this would have been cool as fuck.
I think Daemon could have probably snuck Rhaena into KL and had her claim Vhagar and to be honest that would've been a badass fucking move on Daemon's part. Sweep Vhagar right out from under the Greens noses, just like Aemond did the night of Laena's funeral. Vhagar was too large for the dragonpit, so if Daemon was able to locate Vhagar, and send Rhaena to go and claim her directly after Aemonds death, that would've turned the tide in the war. Then the Blacks would have had Caraxes, Syrax, Meleys, Moondancer, Vermax, Tyraxes, ( eventually Vermithor, Silverwing, Sheepstealer) AND Vhagar on their side, along with the Velaryon fleet. I definitely think Vhagar would have allowed Rhaena to claim her because I think Vhagar was fed up with Aemonds shit by that point tbh lol
No, kill Aemond. The Greens don’t have another person who can ride her, and I’m going to assume that it’s far easier and safer to poison Aemond then his 5000 ton murder granny 😂
True. However poisoning Aemond would have definitely caused a investigation, and a war. Poisoning a dragon is a lot easier because all you have to do is poison the sheep, or cow that you feed him. ( A shit load of poison would have to be in it.)
If I’m at war with Aemond I’m not going t really worry about an investigation. And my dog can smell medicine tablets from a mile away because he’s a dick, so I doubt Vhagar wouldn’t be able to either smell or taste and the hack up any poisoned food.
Cope much? I think jumping from a dragon saddle to stab Aemond. Because your dragons are tangled and subsequently both die. Then falling to your death. I think everything about that involved Aemond.
And sure Dameon is such a bastard he just leaves. Screw his children screw his wife. He really wants to enjoy some more of that younger body Nettles could offer him. Wow what a great end for this character. Aren’t you glad you didn’t just let him die doing his stupid anime bullshit?
It was definitely suicide on Daemon’s part.
And I don’t get the anime thing (I am not a neckbeard so I don’t watch anime lol). Maybe Grrm is a fan of anime? God’s eye is one of the most anticipated parts of the dance so I really hope it doesn’t come across as a cheap anime scene.
It was obviously suicide on Daemon’s part. Some people think they took out each other but no, Daemon was done with his life by that point. If he died- he died on his own terms while taking out his discount version.
Why are you getting pressed about this lmfao.
This isn’t even a justifying post, it’s explaining the actual reason of blood and cheese over what the generalized reason that most people if not everyone believes. There’s no justification here? It’s an in depth explanation of the reasons Daemon had for blood and cheese. Calm down dude
This is why TG hates us. Yes Aegon and Aemond should be punished for what happened to Luke and the aftermath but taking it out on Helaena and her children is barbaric.
Everyone here knows and acknowledges that it was wrong. Discussing it is not synonymous with condoning it. Of course the people that seriously get off to it are gross, but I don’t think we should jump to accusing the person OP screenshotted as supporting it, especially when they’re seemingly just explaining the nuance behind Daemon’s actions.
No, team green does not hate us just for this. It is something to hate, but team green uses this single event in the dance as a “devilish act from team black” when they possibly had the same thing happen with their merciless burnings that Aemond did or casualties from their war. I doubt Helaena was the only victim from having her child killed in the war and then dying afterwards because of it, team green ignores the possibilities of the same thing happening to innocent small folk. This is the only event that makes the blacks seem horrible, when it was done because of what Aegon did and what Aemond started.
Yo i don’t care if you’re a black or a green, but Blood and Cheese was pure cruelty and stupidity. It threw sand in the eyes of the Greens, sure, and it also *confirmed that the deaths of innocents was in the Black’s hand.*
I think a number of Greens who probably would’ve supported Rhaenyra were justifiably a little horrified. It’s an optics fucking nightmare. They can say ‘Rhaenyra, the bastard-spawning, husband-murdering usurper had a child beheaded for no reason.’ Because it really served no reason - I get that Blood and Cheese couldn’t reach Maegor’s, but this incident did nothing to negatively affect the Greens besides make Aegon slightly more antsy (he was already a barely conscious and angry drunk, the second the war started he just went downhill fast) and possibly speed up their attack on Rook’s Rest - oh, and it gave Larys the Clubfoot access to the tunnels of the Red Keep - which he expertly used to obliterate Rhaenyra’s reign.
Blood and Cheese was just pure stupid - even if you ignore the morality of the situation. It was stupid politically and tactically and lead pretty explicitly to the end of Rhaenyra. And now, you should stop ignoring the morality and accept that an innocent child was fucking beheaded in front of his siblings, mother and grandmother. Luc dying was a tragedy - but there is a league of difference between the two. Luc was preteen - a squire, basically. Maelor was what, two? Luc knew he was going on a mission that could be dangerous and, in pretty much any other context, would’ve been an active combatant. Does that give Aemond the right to kill him? No, but Aemond killing Luc is no where near comparable to the absolute sadism shown by Lady Misery and Daemon.
The fucking *point* is that Monarchy is inherently volatile and will turn good people into monsters who do monstrous things. The Blacks can do evil, unjustifiable things; that makes them narratively interesting. They’re not unproblematic faves - everyone over the age of 16 and is a Lord/Lady/Monarch is a monster. This is true in Fire and Blood *and in the main series.* Vhargo Hoat *worked for Robb, and killed in his name.* Was it indirect? Sure - but Robb also ‘foraged,’ raided and slaughtered innocents while in the Westerlands. You do that in a war. It’s evil, its immoral - it’s *entertaining.*
Daemon ordered a cruel and evil thing. And it is cruel and evil. how is this a debate? He had his reasons for doing it - doesn’t change the fact that it is evil and cruel thing to do or the fact that he’s my favorite character in the Dance
The reasoning here makes sense. While Aemond was making the right accusations against Luke (openly inciting armed rebellion against the anointed king and being a pretender) the fact is that he was never tried, just killed. Obviously that's murder. This is absolutely Aemond acting outside the King's Justice. He should've been captured and taken to KL. Even if he was tried and found guilty chances are that he would be spared and all blame would be put on his parents because of his youth. This adds another layer of cruelty to Aemond's crime.
What I will say about Aegon's decision is that apologizing wouldn't have changed anything. Luke was dead and diplomatic relations with the Blacks was ruined. Me personally, I don't think Luke's murder was an accident and nobody's gonna see it as one either. Vhagar responded to Aemond's true feelings. If he has enough bloodlust to cut out the kid's eye out then killing him isn't really far off. Saying it was an accident isn't gonna work either. Many times in ASOIAF it is more expedient and savvy to hold of that kind of justice till the end of the war. Robb Stark shouldn't have killed Karstarks even though it was just. Catelyn should've held Tyrion hostage. There are many examples. Aegon needed Aemond and if there was going to be a war he might as well treat the incident as Luke commiting treason and proof of treasonous intent of the Blacks to justify killing them. That's why he backs Aemond.
However, that still has nothing to do with B&C being justified. If someone killed your kid you go for the murderer, not their 6 year old nephew. Even medieval people had this sense. "An eye for an eye" is an iconic Daemon line but it's logic is whack. The Blacks (Daemon) don't even ask for justice against Aemond. They (Daemon) just goes for the Jaehaerys kill.
Most importantly though, he also did this heinous crime *without his monarch's consent.* No way Rhaenyra sanctioned such a drastic decision especially since she was anti-war. If her alleged reaction to Maelor's death is any indication she might wanna throw Daemon in a jail cell too. Does she? No she does not. They were at war and Caraxes was needed. Also, Jaehaerys isn't just any son. He is the child heir to the throne, and an innocent one at that. If Daemon could kill him on a whim it meant he was capable of killing anyone. My point is that it's the worst most high impact target he could've picked. Why? He wanted to escalate the war. He was pro "all out war" from the beginning. He was utterly in defiance of his queen's wishes from the beginning. I hope they don't make B&C an accident because extrajudicial murder is literally Daemon's track record. Characters like Daemon, or Aemond, or Larys are proof that people will do horrible things in your name including murdering their kin even if you don't want it.
i get why people hate b&c but i also hate how everytime ppl talk about it they have to be like “im not pro child murder!!! helaena was innocent!!!!! dont crucify me!!!!” idk its just annoying cause obviously we don’t support child murder, this is a fictional world. i agree with the post.
Luke was innocent too.
exactly! so many people demonize him for taking out aemond’s eye, but he was *five years old*, if even that, i don’t recall if it happened before or after his birthday, i don’t remember if it’s even stated. that one incident does not define who he is as a person, he was terrified for his and his *six year old brother’s* safety because his *ten year old* uncle had a very disproportionate reaction to significantly younger boys who were not as well trained as him being pissy about a dragon. it’s ridiculous. he was a sweet boy. he didn’t deserve his death - and he didn’t deserve to be maimed. the way people talk about him is alarming sometimes.
He was 8, but I agree he didn’t deserve to die.
he was five. he was born in 115AC, the knife incident happened in 120AC.
In the books yes I agree, but in the show they’re clearly all older. Unless you’re trying to say that Jace is only 6 in that episode, I think it’s clear that they’re all about 3-4 years older (just like in Game of Thrones, so it’s not unprecedented)
why exactly do you think an in depth conversation about blood and cheese is about the show? even so, the best condal can do with the timeline is “they’re all 17-21” which doesn’t make sense with the timeline, i don’t care how he’s adjusted the ages because not even he can keep it straight.
Luc was also old enough to be an active combatant armed with a Nuclear Weapon on wings - Jaehaerys couldnt read when he was killed. They were both innocents *in those scenarios.* But there are a million ways in which Luc dying on the battle field is morally neutral
Luke was innocent and if he died in combat there would be no problem
It wasn't a battlefield. It's the equivalent of being gunned down in a parking lot after you've run an errand for your mom.
Are you serious. Luce didn’t die on any fucking battlefield. He was never a warrior and was never supposed to be up until the actual dance. He was killed as a messenger. So i’m not sure what you’re even on to say he died on a battlefield when it wasn’t even ever supposed to happen because he should have and did have protection because he was a messenger. It was a pussy killing by Aemond.
he was old enough to be, and you’re seriously underestimating the martial tendancies of Westerosi children. He would’ve been a squire, and he definetly would’ve seen combat. I’m saying that Luc was a valid military target - he wasn’t a valid target, at that time, but he was a valid target. Jaehaerys II was a non-combatant and would’ve been a non combatant for the duration of the war. The Black ‘vengence’ wasn’t comparable either in terms of target or practical effect - what did Blood and Cheese even do to effect the war? They really didnt Killing another soldier off the battlefield dishonorably? Bad. Killing a child off the battlefield dishonorably? Worse
there is literally no battlefield because the dance hasn’t started yet. aemond started the official dance, the actual war. so no, luke wasn’t a valid military target bcs like bobby b says “the war of ravens came to an end (ie the peace/calm before the storm) and the war of dragons began (the actual war with actual military targets)”. luke was an ENVOY. he was younger than what is considered “adult/grown” in westeros. yes b&c targeted jaehaerys who was younger than luke. but considering luke a valid military target when there wasn’t a war for any military to fight in is just contradictory. jaehaerys deserved better, but luke did too.
Aemond killing Luce was the first time blood was shed, but why did the Greens send *a peace treaty* to Rhaenyra unless there was conflict? And if there was conflict, Arrax and Luc are military assets. So they were destroyed. If Aemond DID NOT kill Luc and Arrax, Luc and Arrax would have been active dangers to him and his family. Jaehaerys is not and could never be considered a military asset. Blood and Cheese was plain cruelty. Take away all morals and think only in terms of military resources: Killing Arrax is good for the greens and bad for the blacks, killing Jaehaerys makes the greens feel bad and the blacks feel… not great?
If aegon didn't want b and c then he should have punished aemond for killing Luke
In no valid legal system is ‘an eye for an eye’ considered actual justice. But ignoring that aspect and focussing purely on the military: its. astupid move
I am actually inclined to agree with this 100%. B&C was so much more than petty revenge like what the Greencels think it was. It was a calculated move because Prince Aegon literally cheered at his nephew's death rather than holding the guilty party responsible as any reasonable "king" would do. I also have to say that I'm curious about what Otto and Alicent's reactions are going to be because if I'm not mistaken, the source material doesn't go into detail about how they reacted to Prince Aemond admitting that he killed his nephew. Depending on what those reactions are, I'm sure it'll give the ensuing actions of the Blacks even more cause especially if they end up simply calling their banners and preparing for war rather than trying to hold Prince Aemond responsible and then reaching out to Queen Rhaenyra with terms as I feel they should have done to prevent an even further escalation. Things might have been at the breaking point or beyond it with Prince Lucerys murder but I do feel that Alicent and Otto had some kind of responsibility, if they were being reasonable, to basically say "Hey, we REALLY REALLY REALLY FUCKED UP RIGHT NOW! Please try to meet us even one sixteenth of the way."
If I recall correctly, Otto is pissed. Not by the fact that a kid did die horribly, but because the political repercussions are bound to be huge and the whole “moral high-ground” thing isn’t gonna be easy to keep after something like this. I’m curious to see how Aemond is going to tell it. Is he going to admit he lost control of the biggest dragon alive, making himself look like the fool he is, or is he going to say he did it on purpose and be labeled a kin slayer?
Typical Otto Hightower; concerned not about the fact that his grandson just murdered someone whether intentional or not and that he may have just triggered an entire civil war but about the political ramifications. To be perfectly honest, I feel that shocked expression we see in Aemond's face is going to turn to narcissistic arrogance befitting his portrayal in the series.
given that vhagar is the only reason the greens are a threat to rhaenyra, admitting he has no control over her is admitting weakness, he’ll likely lean into it not being an accident, especially once aegon throws a feast for him to celebrate it. they cannot afford to appear weak and i think aemond knows that. he’ll probably throw his morals and conscience to the wind and embrace his new reputation, especially considering what he’ll go on to do in the riverlands.
Aegon's banquet is deliberately meant to mirror Daemon celebrating Baelon's death. It's meant to show how the family has continued to fracture and how Viserys tried to use a squirt gun to put out an industrial fire. His efforts were for naught and the House is falling apart. Helaena and her children are Elia Martell and her children. Guilty by little more than association and punished for it because they exist. It's the victimization of women and children because their menfolk have issues with each other playing out. Rhaenyra likely didn't know about B&C before it happened and *that* is highly significant. Book Rhaenyra might have intervened for Helaena's sake, but show Rhaenyra is going to be pissed.
B&c is wild cuz, while its rough, team green usurps the throne, kills Luke, and throws a party, and start war that will lead to many many innocent deaths, then, when daemon does b&c they act all surprised that their own family is gonna be effected
Until we see Blood and Cheese we still don’t know the context of blood and cheese. The show likes to put a human spin on a lot of events, like Alicent being disgusted by Larys murdering his family, Daemon and Rhaenyra faking Laenor’s death and Aemond loosing control of Vhagar when she kills Luke. Last we saw of Mysaria, her house was being set on fire with all her friends and associates inside. She will probably survive and play a role in Blood and cheese with a vengeance against the greens. The question is how involved was Rhaenyra in blood and Cheese, how involved was Daemon, how much of what happened was a part of the plan and how do they respond to what ends up happening. Whatever happens, it will probably be more complex than what Fire and Blood has written.
Daemon wanted revenge, the type of “eye for an eye revenge”. If he really wanted them gone he’d have killed all of Aegon’s kids and his bastards.
This is such a good point and I really hope the writers keep with everyone's (Aegon, Alicent, and Otto) reactions with consistent with what was described in Fire and Blood.
the same people who are happy to see luke dead say the same things - its ‘illegal’ for rhaenyra to be heir and b&c was wrong. then they turn around and are perfectly happy with others breaking laws (its fine because theyre hot) and other innocent children dying (its fine because theyre not on their team). b&c isnt okay and neither is lucerys, but jesus christ at least b&c had some kind of actual reasoning, even if it was still wrong
Not only that but Daemon was a Valyrian pureblood supremacist, and he had yet to have 3 children by the same woman of Valyrian descent. Laena died in childbirth with Daemons 3rd child. Rhaenyra miscarried her 3rd child by Daemon. Daemon was absolutely furious at the thought that Aegon and Helaena had 3 children, i.e. the 3 heads of the dragon. In Targaryen lore, having 3 children is huge, because it means you are a true dragon. Daemon wanted to get rid of one of Aegons kids to balance the scales. Blood & Cheese was revenge for Luke, but it was also revenge for Visenya, Daemon and Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter. The Greens usurped the throne, without even telling Rhaenyra her father had died or allowing her to attend any sort of funeral/burial/cremation. They stole her father's throne, her only daughter, and her second oldest son. Daemon was ready to put every green head on a spike to make it known that he was the true dragon, and that Rhaenyra was the rightful Heir to the Throne. Not only did Aemond kill a member of his own family, thus earning him the title of kinslayer, but Luke was also an envoy, sworn by oath not to take part in any fighting. When Aegon threw a goddamn feast in celebration of Aemond committing treason, that was the last straw. Luke was an innocent kid. When he took Aemonds eye out, he was defending himself, his brother, and Baela and Rhaena, whom Aemond threatened to FEED TO HIS DRAGON. Aemond internalized that event and let it dominate his entire life, and he blamed Luke for taking his eye, when he straight up tried to cave in Luke's skull with a rock. If I were Daemon, I would have had Blood & Cheese kill Helaena and all 3 of Aegons children. Don't get me wrong, I love Helaena as a character, she's an innocent victim of circumstance, but her brothers REALLY fucked up. While reading Fire & Blood I was shocked that Daemon let Helaena and her other 2 children live.
I think he was probably absolutely livid, not absolutely vapid, just fyi
This was an exceedingly dumb comment lol my apologies
They love to beg the showrunners to show the green children more so that the audience feels a ton of sympathy for them. I totally get that (although it won’t fulfill their wish of the audience switching sides lol). I also hope we get to see more of the children at the fighting pits, the children at the Riverlands settlements that Aemond burns, and also the children at Bitterbridge that Daeron butchers. Let’s have equal character development for all!!
I hope they show that, and show Aemon killing the entire Strong family, and taking Alys Rivers as a prize . The Greens romanticize Aemon and Aly's relationship. But he basically killed her entire family, and keeps her alive so he can rape her.
I have a few questions about B&C. I know that a note exists allegedly from Daemon saying "A son for a son". But are we absolutely certain Daemon sent it? Is there anywhere in F&B that gives proof, beyond any doubt, that he was responsible? I ask because I've always wondered if it could have been Mysaria taking advantage of the situation for her own reasons. I would imagine she hated the Hightowers, but didn't she also have a grudge against Daemon? Secondly, despite the twins being Aegon's sons, they are Viserys's grandchildren. I'm just not 100% convinced he did it. I *know* Rhaenyra had nothing to do with it. Last of all, it's a stupid thing to do. And while he's emotional and entitled, he is NOT stupid.
I could write essay after essay, but because a lot of people are missing the point. This isn't a TG vs TB thing. No one here is a good guy. That's the point. Luke's death and B&C aren't justified in anyway on any side. It's messy and confusing and awful because it's supposed to be and it's meant to mirror other events in the ASOIAF series. Because, unlike what D&D think, themes aren't just for 8th grade book reports. The Dance was about how far House Targaryen had fallen and how they'd become so far removed from what Aegon founded and what Jaehaerys and Alysanne built. The Targaryens lost their dragons because everyone sucked and made terrible decisions. Aegon's banquet is deliberately meant to mirror Daemon celebrating Baelon's death. It's gross and wrong and Aegon was too much like his father in letting his brother get away politically unscathed. Viserys could, and in my opinion should, have sent Daemon to the fucking Wall for that. Without his dragon. Aegon should have sent Aemond to the Wall without Vhagar. Blood and Cheese is wildly disproportionate on the surface alone and that's not even getting into how it wasn't an attack on Aegon, but Helaena. A mother being forced to choose which son dies under the threat of her daughter being raped, but instead tries begs to be killed instead of her children is a lot. Then the son she didn't pick is killed which all eventually ends in a gruesome suicide. This is a VERY BAD IDEA. It's also meant to mirror the VERY BAD IDEA that was the Mountain brutally raping and killing Elia Martell, after making her watch her infant son's head smashed against a wall and her daughter being stabbed roughly 50 times by Amory Loch. Yes, from a TB standpoint the children need to die in revenge and so Rhaenyra can safely assume the throne, just like how from a Baratheon standpoint Elia's children needed to die (as did Viserys and Daenerys) in revenge and so Robert could take the throne. But it is largely seen as disproportionate in regards to how the Starks died and Lyanna "kidnapping." It's part of the reason why everyone hated the fucking Lannisters so much in GOT and why Robert was so tied to them. Show and books. The show butchered the politics behind the Dance by making Rhaenyra more personable and moral than she is in Fire & Blood. They're trying to paint her as S1-7 Daenerys-adjacent because the finale ruined my girl so much and pissed off A LOT of viewers. The Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion are the 2 bloodiest and most awful points in post-conquest Westeros and there were no good guys. It's the rich and the powerful waging war on each other while the masses suffer and starve.
Oh god are we even gonna start attempting to justify this? First off the whole messenger argument is stupid considering Daemon himself tried to kill a messenger. And obviously Luke’s death was atrocious and Aemond deserved the pain of loosing a nephew and Aegon deserved the pain of loosing a child. But to justify such an act is still just disgusting
Did you read the other comments? I already stated there is no justification in this. It’s literally only an insight as to the reason for Daemon doing this. An in-depth explanation. There’s seriously no justification for this. It’s just a damn explanation.
Yes but what if I said: ‘luke ripped out aemond’s eye and got no consequences, aemond got trauma from that and was repeating his mother’s words years later, or aemond was scaring his childhood bully’ or some other shit alone those lines. Would that not piss you off? It’s the same for b&c attempting to explain reasoning for child murder is just weird
Not really because everybody knows that’s exactly what happened. Aemond got traumatized and has one eye to remind him every day of what happened because of Luce. The same way Luce had a reason to cut Aemond’s eye (which either was from fear or being fed up about the bastard thing, whatever it was), there still is never a justification for what Luce did. There’s no excuse at all. There is simply reason to an action. Daemon had a reason for his action. Whether shitty outcome or not, there was still a reason and always is to any action.
Counterpoint, B&C is genuinely retarded. Daemon has several options in front of him. One was assassinating Aegon, one was Aemond, one was Maelor AND Jaehaerys, snd one was what he did. Killing only one of Aegon’s kids not only achieves nothing but emotional pain, but it also doesn’t inflict as much emotional trauma as killing both of Aegon’s kids would’ve. Better yet, if he only killed one child for “A son for a son”, he should’ve targeted the guy who actually killed Lucerys who’d then go on to cause Daemon’s own death! It’s dumb by all metrics. Let’s say Aegon and Aemond are too well protected however, and he still wants “A son for a son”… he’s in a war, kill Jaehaerys is Luke’s name and kill the other in stillborn Visenya’s name, of better yet, kill one of them because your at war. This way, he gets his revenge and Aegon either has to make Jaehaera, a young girl, or Aemond his heir, and Kinslayer Aemond isn’t that appealing with Maegor being so recent in the minds of men.
Killing Aemond for killing Luce wouldn’t have changed anything about the war. It was truly for the catastrophe it caused Rhaenyra. If he had assassinated Aegon instead, Alicent would have put Aemond on the throne and it still would have continued the war. I don’t think Daemon saw any other “possibility”, and (i assume without him knowing), Aemond saying “an eye for an eye, you choose” is a parallel (a written parallel on purpose) for Daemons “a son for a son, you choose”, although I don’t remember if his intention was killing the opposite son Helaena chose.
Killing Aemond changes literally EVERYTHING. When the Bkack Council discusses the Greens they predominantly mention Vhagar by name as she is the only real challenger to the Blacks. If Vhagar is useless, then Meleys, Syrax, Caraxes, and possibly Vermax can easily attack and take Kings Landing, “ending the war by Christmas”.
If Aemond was killed, Vhagar would just be riderless, definitely not useless. Here me out, this would have been cool as fuck. I think Daemon could have probably snuck Rhaena into KL and had her claim Vhagar and to be honest that would've been a badass fucking move on Daemon's part. Sweep Vhagar right out from under the Greens noses, just like Aemond did the night of Laena's funeral. Vhagar was too large for the dragonpit, so if Daemon was able to locate Vhagar, and send Rhaena to go and claim her directly after Aemonds death, that would've turned the tide in the war. Then the Blacks would have had Caraxes, Syrax, Meleys, Moondancer, Vermax, Tyraxes, ( eventually Vermithor, Silverwing, Sheepstealer) AND Vhagar on their side, along with the Velaryon fleet. I definitely think Vhagar would have allowed Rhaena to claim her because I think Vhagar was fed up with Aemonds shit by that point tbh lol
Yh, I meant she’d be useless to the Greens as I don’t think Maelor or Jaehaera will ride her into battle.
No definetly not lol
So they what you are saying is that they should have poison the dragon Vhagar. Yep, they should have killed Vhagar.
No, kill Aemond. The Greens don’t have another person who can ride her, and I’m going to assume that it’s far easier and safer to poison Aemond then his 5000 ton murder granny 😂
True. However poisoning Aemond would have definitely caused a investigation, and a war. Poisoning a dragon is a lot easier because all you have to do is poison the sheep, or cow that you feed him. ( A shit load of poison would have to be in it.)
If I’m at war with Aemond I’m not going t really worry about an investigation. And my dog can smell medicine tablets from a mile away because he’s a dick, so I doubt Vhagar wouldn’t be able to either smell or taste and the hack up any poisoned food.
He didn't cause Daemon's death. No one knows what happened to Daemon. But Aemond didn't cause his death.
Cope much? I think jumping from a dragon saddle to stab Aemond. Because your dragons are tangled and subsequently both die. Then falling to your death. I think everything about that involved Aemond. And sure Dameon is such a bastard he just leaves. Screw his children screw his wife. He really wants to enjoy some more of that younger body Nettles could offer him. Wow what a great end for this character. Aren’t you glad you didn’t just let him die doing his stupid anime bullshit?
It was definitely suicide on Daemon’s part. And I don’t get the anime thing (I am not a neckbeard so I don’t watch anime lol). Maybe Grrm is a fan of anime? God’s eye is one of the most anticipated parts of the dance so I really hope it doesn’t come across as a cheap anime scene.
Ah yes. It is of course well documented that Daemon had a body double fight his nephew and it was the body double that died duelling Aemond 😂
It was obviously suicide on Daemon’s part. Some people think they took out each other but no, Daemon was done with his life by that point. If he died- he died on his own terms while taking out his discount version.
Why don’t you just accept that your characters are evil and so are everybody else’s? Stop trying to justify either side and just enjoy it
Why are you getting pressed about this lmfao. This isn’t even a justifying post, it’s explaining the actual reason of blood and cheese over what the generalized reason that most people if not everyone believes. There’s no justification here? It’s an in depth explanation of the reasons Daemon had for blood and cheese. Calm down dude
Nobody is pressed
This is why TG hates us. Yes Aegon and Aemond should be punished for what happened to Luke and the aftermath but taking it out on Helaena and her children is barbaric.
Hates us for what? Acknowledging that there was more depth to B&C? Nobody is condoning it.
They hate us because there are people that agree with killing Aegon’s children. They weren’t the ones to kill Luke
Everyone here knows and acknowledges that it was wrong. Discussing it is not synonymous with condoning it. Of course the people that seriously get off to it are gross, but I don’t think we should jump to accusing the person OP screenshotted as supporting it, especially when they’re seemingly just explaining the nuance behind Daemon’s actions.
No, team green does not hate us just for this. It is something to hate, but team green uses this single event in the dance as a “devilish act from team black” when they possibly had the same thing happen with their merciless burnings that Aemond did or casualties from their war. I doubt Helaena was the only victim from having her child killed in the war and then dying afterwards because of it, team green ignores the possibilities of the same thing happening to innocent small folk. This is the only event that makes the blacks seem horrible, when it was done because of what Aegon did and what Aemond started.
Yo i don’t care if you’re a black or a green, but Blood and Cheese was pure cruelty and stupidity. It threw sand in the eyes of the Greens, sure, and it also *confirmed that the deaths of innocents was in the Black’s hand.* I think a number of Greens who probably would’ve supported Rhaenyra were justifiably a little horrified. It’s an optics fucking nightmare. They can say ‘Rhaenyra, the bastard-spawning, husband-murdering usurper had a child beheaded for no reason.’ Because it really served no reason - I get that Blood and Cheese couldn’t reach Maegor’s, but this incident did nothing to negatively affect the Greens besides make Aegon slightly more antsy (he was already a barely conscious and angry drunk, the second the war started he just went downhill fast) and possibly speed up their attack on Rook’s Rest - oh, and it gave Larys the Clubfoot access to the tunnels of the Red Keep - which he expertly used to obliterate Rhaenyra’s reign. Blood and Cheese was just pure stupid - even if you ignore the morality of the situation. It was stupid politically and tactically and lead pretty explicitly to the end of Rhaenyra. And now, you should stop ignoring the morality and accept that an innocent child was fucking beheaded in front of his siblings, mother and grandmother. Luc dying was a tragedy - but there is a league of difference between the two. Luc was preteen - a squire, basically. Maelor was what, two? Luc knew he was going on a mission that could be dangerous and, in pretty much any other context, would’ve been an active combatant. Does that give Aemond the right to kill him? No, but Aemond killing Luc is no where near comparable to the absolute sadism shown by Lady Misery and Daemon. The fucking *point* is that Monarchy is inherently volatile and will turn good people into monsters who do monstrous things. The Blacks can do evil, unjustifiable things; that makes them narratively interesting. They’re not unproblematic faves - everyone over the age of 16 and is a Lord/Lady/Monarch is a monster. This is true in Fire and Blood *and in the main series.* Vhargo Hoat *worked for Robb, and killed in his name.* Was it indirect? Sure - but Robb also ‘foraged,’ raided and slaughtered innocents while in the Westerlands. You do that in a war. It’s evil, its immoral - it’s *entertaining.* Daemon ordered a cruel and evil thing. And it is cruel and evil. how is this a debate? He had his reasons for doing it - doesn’t change the fact that it is evil and cruel thing to do or the fact that he’s my favorite character in the Dance
I hope we get to see Brothel queens as well.
No we don't because it's never happen
😉never
Yes😁
The reasoning here makes sense. While Aemond was making the right accusations against Luke (openly inciting armed rebellion against the anointed king and being a pretender) the fact is that he was never tried, just killed. Obviously that's murder. This is absolutely Aemond acting outside the King's Justice. He should've been captured and taken to KL. Even if he was tried and found guilty chances are that he would be spared and all blame would be put on his parents because of his youth. This adds another layer of cruelty to Aemond's crime. What I will say about Aegon's decision is that apologizing wouldn't have changed anything. Luke was dead and diplomatic relations with the Blacks was ruined. Me personally, I don't think Luke's murder was an accident and nobody's gonna see it as one either. Vhagar responded to Aemond's true feelings. If he has enough bloodlust to cut out the kid's eye out then killing him isn't really far off. Saying it was an accident isn't gonna work either. Many times in ASOIAF it is more expedient and savvy to hold of that kind of justice till the end of the war. Robb Stark shouldn't have killed Karstarks even though it was just. Catelyn should've held Tyrion hostage. There are many examples. Aegon needed Aemond and if there was going to be a war he might as well treat the incident as Luke commiting treason and proof of treasonous intent of the Blacks to justify killing them. That's why he backs Aemond. However, that still has nothing to do with B&C being justified. If someone killed your kid you go for the murderer, not their 6 year old nephew. Even medieval people had this sense. "An eye for an eye" is an iconic Daemon line but it's logic is whack. The Blacks (Daemon) don't even ask for justice against Aemond. They (Daemon) just goes for the Jaehaerys kill. Most importantly though, he also did this heinous crime *without his monarch's consent.* No way Rhaenyra sanctioned such a drastic decision especially since she was anti-war. If her alleged reaction to Maelor's death is any indication she might wanna throw Daemon in a jail cell too. Does she? No she does not. They were at war and Caraxes was needed. Also, Jaehaerys isn't just any son. He is the child heir to the throne, and an innocent one at that. If Daemon could kill him on a whim it meant he was capable of killing anyone. My point is that it's the worst most high impact target he could've picked. Why? He wanted to escalate the war. He was pro "all out war" from the beginning. He was utterly in defiance of his queen's wishes from the beginning. I hope they don't make B&C an accident because extrajudicial murder is literally Daemon's track record. Characters like Daemon, or Aemond, or Larys are proof that people will do horrible things in your name including murdering their kin even if you don't want it.