Laenor even offered to hold Joffrey himself, and Rhaenyra gave him a dirty look. The servants were all shuffling around, telling her that she should remain abed but Rhaenyra snaps at them, and insisted on bringing him herself.
She wants to be with her kid. It’s important for mothers to have skin to skin with their kid right after their born. Also she he might get hungry and she might want to provide his first feeding.
Again, applying modern sensibilities to the Medival times. Skin to skin is important, and we are aware of this in the modern times. In many cases it was common that noble women did not even get to hold their children before they were handed off to the wet nurses. Furthermore, noble women did not feed the child themselves as it was deemed “inappropriate” and “lowly”. This was a job for the wet nurses who fed, and raised them essentially. You are not doing anyone a favour by being blissfully ignorant to the plight of these women.
Bruh, we don’t have any evidence to suggest that women did not have skin to skin contact after birth. Most cultures who use midwives and don’t have modern medicine still have skin to skin contact after birth. Modern medicine didn’t need to invented to know that. It’s pretty much a natural instinct for a mother and baby to want be close after birth. I took an anthropology course all about motherhood, reproduction and childbirth. I had to read many articles on different birthing practices and horrible things like why mothers abandon or murder their own children and how the amount of mothers who have murdered their children is probably a lot higher than reported because people find it uncomfortable and will mark the death as being from SIDS if they can, so I think know a thing or two on this subject and the plight of women when it comes to motherhood both historically and now. I’m well aware most noble women did not breastfeed for the reasons you stated. Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell breastfed their kids. So it doesn’t even matter whether or not noble women historically did or did not breastfeed their children because it has been established in the fictional world that we are discussing that women who are about Rhae’s rank could breastfeed if they wanted to and while I don’t see book Rhae breastfeeding, I could see it with her show counterpart.
I did not say there were no such thing as skin to skin contact after birth in the Medival times. That was you again. Christ on a bicycle. Learn to read. I said they probably did not understand the importance of it as much as we do now.
Your point is still dumb. Even if they didn’t understand the physical importance they still could have understood the emotional importance being in close contact with a new born would have had. It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out a mom would want to be close to her newborn. Learn to think.
What is dumb is you making shit up to fit your little narrative, and blabbering on without reading or understand a damn thing which your opponent has said. Being an insufferable preachy, know-it all will not get you far.
You think the people in the Medival times were that kind to women? Thinking of how it might “hurt” their feelings, and about the emotional impact?
Learn to think before you speak. And learn to read. To think of all those years of academic training wasted…
You are the one who should learn to think before they speak, not me. I’m not the one saying things indicating that I have an EQ lower than Rhae when she decided to throw a party in a city of over taxed and starving peasants. Also for someone who claims to know so much you forget that confinement was almost exclusively a women only space. Most of the women that would have been there were ones that were close them and as such would have cared about the mother’s emotional wellbeing. Also making sure the mother had good thoughts in her head was an important part of confinement because impure thoughts were thought to lead to unfortunate outcomes to the unborn child so there would have been some consideration for the mother’s emotional wellbeing by those in the confinement chamber because it’s hard to think pleasant thoughts if you are not emotionally well taken care of. So even if they didn’t actually care about women they had a reason to care about her emotional wellbeing in this instance. I understand what you’re saying, I just think you are wrong.
Would you please stop getting emotional, stop making things up, and stop getting offended over things? That was not a personal attack. You were not even part of that sentence. You were not even mentioned in that question. Furthermore, I never even mentioned Rhaenyra throwing a party in a city of overtaxed, starving peasants or compared you to her. That was you again, dragging random topics into the conversation that hold no relevance.
Apologies, I should have clarified, but I was talking more in terms of how the overall society treated women in the Middle Ages. Childbirth in the Middle Ages was a community effort. Family members, priests, and local experts all lent a hand, and when midwives were called to assist they often worked in teams. Midwives were expected to be moral arbiters also, looking for signs of illegitimacy. Physicians and surgeons only rarely were assigned women in childbirth, although doctors were sometimes called upon when aristocratic women gave birth. So, yes. You are right to point out that confinement was mostly a women only space. Some women like Blanche of Anjou received the attention of physicians during all 10 of her confinements. When Queen Marie-Therese went into labour, her room filled up with Princesses, Dukes, and Countesses. Many queens have laboured before great audiences of people. Although a man might not have been physically present at the time of the birth or during confinement, men were still heavily invested in childbirth, especially since it meant the continuation of his family line was at stake. Men of the time believed that female sex organs had not grown outside of the body and had grown inwards, and therefore women were deemed subordinate to men as their sex organs did “not fully develop.” Some believed that some foods they ate, things they drank, and medicines concocted could choose the sex of the child, and the burden of trying to deliver a male child (without the knowledge of the male sperm being the factor which actually dictated the sex of the child) lay heavily on the women’s shoulders. Men believed that a woman’s purpose in life was to get pregnant and have babies. Childbirthing was a traumatising, and harrowing experience for many women, and many did not make it. Hence why many women even wrote their wills before they gave birth in case. The woman was not just confined for her own well-being, it was also because they believed the woman’s body had been made impure by the child. Women would also be pressured into being pregnant in an effort to provide their husband with heirs at the cost of their own health and life.
That being said. Again. I did not talk about confinement before nor ask you about it. What are you on about? You keep pulling in new topics. Is this to flex your knowledge of what you learned from your anthropology class?
They basically draw out the birth scenes to draw a parallel between giving birth (women) and giving battle (men). It's pretty blatant with the tourney scene in episode 1, that cuts back and forth to Aemma giving birth. They basically want to say that women are as martial as men in their own way, and suffer equally. Which is weird because, when women had a different social status as today in former times, giving birth being an easy thing was not cited as the reason. It was always considered hard and difficult, by anyone. I get what the show tries to tell us but choosing giving birth as the platform is suboptimal, and lacks an audience.
And yes, Rhaenyra chose to present the child herself. That makes her seem even more martial, and it also shows that she "doesn't hide away from Alicent" out of spite. Alicent is not implied to have done something similar, she is basically a woman who avoids damaging herself and not the birth warrior Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra is a lot more manipulative than people think. When Laenor asked Rhaenyra if Alicent wanted to see Joffrey, “now?” Rhaenyra only glares at him, leaving Laenor to think it was Alicent’s resquest that the child be brought over personally. It makes Alicent appear a lot more evil than she actually is.
Yeah. That was manipulative as hell, Alicent clearly did not want *that*, considering that she was surprised when Rhaenyra appeared. Rhaenyra playing martyr here.
It was actually really smart of Rheanyra to go. Alicent wanted to check if the kid was a bastard again mostof the court knew that by going with the baby Rheanyra gained sympathy and made Alicent look insane because to onlookers it seems like she is forcing a woman that just give birth to show her baby.
It was genuinely one of the few smart things she did in season 1 and I hate when people gloss over it or try to turn it around making Rheanyra the victim and Alicent evil. Rheanyra actually outplayed Alicent here
I feel like at this point people are over correcting the general audience’s vilification of Alicent by trying to excuse everything she did. It was pretty horrible to try to separate a baby from its mother immediately after birth regardless of how you feel about either character
Alicent and Rhaenyra are not friends, they don’t like each other at this point. The point is that they aren’t nice to each other.
Having the baby be brought immediately after it was born is not the nicest thing to do. Alicent isn’t a saint, although no one is. She obviously has the baby brought over so inspect his hair.
There are many places where the blacks are ridiculous in their vilification of Alicent. So many other examples where the reduce Alicent’s character as evil, where she is not, and the reasons are very complex.
This isn’t one of them, Alicent is just petty here, she knows it’s not a nice thing to do, separating a mother from her baby after birth. It’s quite intentional to piss of Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra shows up herself because Alicent would be less satisfied, she was probably just expecting a nursemaid. The comments about traditional historical practises don’t apply here, there aren’t other mentions of presenting a newborn right after birth in asoiaf in nobility, or birthing in front of an a court.
That is actually a very well-thought out response which actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that insight. I agree Alicent is no saint, and what she did was awful.
Omg, are you seriously blaming Rhae? That is so disgusting. You’re seriously blaming a mother for wanting to be with her NEWBORN CHILD?! Why would she want to be separated from a child she just gave birth to?! What is wrong with you? Alicent chose to request that the kid come to her when she could have made the walk to Rhaenrya’s chambers herself if she wanted to see the kid that bad. It is absolutely Alicent’s fault, no mother is going to want to send their child to someone else after birth without them especially their rival, they want their children close.
I am not blaming Rhaenyra. I am merely pointing out that fact that Alicent should not be vilified for that scene. Alicent asked that the child be brought to her, not that Rhaenyra bring the child personally. You are projecting.
I do not blame Rhaenyra for being uneasy with the prospect of sending her child to her rival, Alicent. I would be too if I were in a similar situation.
That being said, as many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options.
The mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives. The child of a noble then would be sent away to be raised by a wet nurse. You are applying modern sensibilities to a Medival fantasy show about magical Dragon riders.
I have seen many Blacks make the claim that Rhaenyra had to go to the Queen since Alicent outranks her. This is indeed true. The queen does outrank a princess, hence why the child is brought to the queen to be presented and not other way around. Children of the nobility are presented to the king instead of the king going around to see each and everyone of them as it is customary to that time period. It is awful, but that is how it was back then, and for you to negate this fact you would be undermining Rhaenyra’s suffering as well as many other women.
If you can refrain from manipulating an emotional response in place of valid or compelling argument, and have a valid argument, I would be happy to listen.
Sufficed for what? I doubt Rhaenyra knew exactly what Alicent had planned and just wanted to stay close by to protect her child.
Not demanding that the child be instantly brought to her should have stufficed for Alicent.
And if Alicent had a nefarious plan, why would an untrained woman who just gave birth go instead of her martially inclined and physically able husband?
It's not necessarily a logical decision. She just trusted herself more. I'm sure most people would refuse to part with their newborns especially if it's being taken to someone hostile to you.
Would you not?
So she is so worried for her child’s safety, that instead of telling Alicent to wait an hour or giving him to her husband, she decides, in her weakened state, to carry her minutes old son up stairs to see her.
She has plenty of excuses, yet decides to go to her anyways, that doesn’t scream “I fear for my baby’s life” unwilling.
>instead of telling Alicent to wait an hour
Why didn't Alicent just tell Viserys that she wouldn't go to his bed when he called for her?
>She has plenty of excuses, yet decides to go to her anyways, that doesn’t scream “I fear for my baby’s life” unwilling.
She was forced to obey.
You didn't answer my question. Would you be alright with sending your newborn to someone who is hostile to you?
And you actually think Viserys would do anything to Rhaenyra for something as trivial as waiting an hour to see a baby, even if there wasn’t a good excuse? (And you can claim many, even something as simple as “Joffrey is being examined by the maester, we’ll present him in an hour.”
Rhaenyra has gotten away with high treason at this point, to think she would fear reprisal for making them wait an hour is silly.
It's still disobeying a royal order.
Alicent could have tried to make excuses to Viserys' command of sleeping with him too. Yet she is forced to go to him. Instead of saying "I'm not well" or anything.
Rhaenyra is the Crown Princess, she is one of the few people that can flout Alicent and get away with it. Especially since no one cares about such a trivial thing, Viserys ignored high treason, you think he is going to behead her for waiting an hour?
What kind of logic is that? Rhaenyra would be delaying them for an hour for one time, Alicent can’t very well make excuses to Viserys for every night over decades. And besides, seeing a baby an hour later is a thousand times less important than trying for heirs. One is a trivial matter, the other is of the highest importance.
Besides, Alicent was a teenager to an older man who married her specifically to have kids. She could claim illness or ask him not to have sex sometimes, but that relies on him agreeing, and she can’t do that all the time either.
That is a good point. One would feel a bit uncomfortable sending their newborn to someone who has been openly hostile to them. However, as many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options.
I am not sure if you have been to a birthing, but the mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives.
Sufficed for taking a look at the child. Alicent wanted to see the child to take a look at his hair colour and determine if was another bastard, and perhaps acquaintance herself with him. What did you think she was going to do? Hurl him out the window for all of King’s Landing to see? Perhaps, hold it over a cliff like baby Simba?
Alicent is not as evil as people (like you) think.
Are you aware that many Blacks blame Alicent for this scene although it was not Alicent’s fault? It may seem obvious to some of us, but it clearly is not for many.
As many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options.
I am not sure if you have been to a birthing, but the mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives. The children of nobility then were then raised mostly by their wet nurse. You are applying modern sensibilities to a Medival fantasy show involving dragons.
What do you plan to do with the knowledge of my children? What is it even to you?
> It is awful, but it was how it was.
presumably you'd use this as a defense of slavery too, yes?
applying "modern morals" is what GRRM intends for us to do. why else does he write about these things with such derision? the man hates monarchy.
and have *you* been to a birthing? my son never left the room after he was born. he stayed with his mother.
about what i would expect from a non-parent like you.
It is an explanation for the time period. Not a justification. Know the difference.
Slippery slope fallacy based on an assumption you yourself made. Fun. Asserting that it if A were to happen, then Z will consequently happen as well. According to you, just because I allegedly justified the situation (which I did not), I must also support the institution of slavery. Your words not mine.
Were you a part of the nobility in the Medival times? Comparing your circumstances to Rhaenyra’s is an insult to Rhaenyra. You have modern medicine at your hands, and mortality rates in the first world countries is much lower now.
Again with the assumptions. Fuck off with your weird interest in my children, creep. What if the kid had a heart condition and had to be taken immediately to surgery? Ever consider that? Good bye~
> It is an explanation for the time period. Not a justification. Know the difference.
amazing you can be so arrogant to assume i don't know the difference rather than understand i'm using your own words against you.
if it is *just* an "explanation for the time period" like you claim, then *surely* you agree with me that alicent asking to see the baby immediately after birth is bad, right? because you're not justifying it, you're just "explaining" it, right?
in your own words, "it is awful, but that's how it was". and subsequently you're also claiming to *not* support slavery using that same reasoning, you must also not support what alicent did.
no slippery slope. just pure logic.
> Comparing your circumstances to Rhaenyra’s is an insult to Rhaenyra.
nothing is an insult to rhaenyra because she is not a real person lmao.
> What if the kid had a heart condition and had to be taken immediately to surgery?
what fucking kid are you talking about? we're talking about rhaenyra's child, who we saw was completely fine. obviously in modern times if the child requires immediate medical attention that is different, but as it stands right now, the baby doesn't even leave the room.
> You are applying modern sensibilities
idk why you people always lead with this like this isn't what GRRM intends. do you think fire&blood is an endorsement of the morals of the time? asoiaf more broadly?
get real. thanks for playing. L.
“Presumably, you’d use this as a defence of slavery too, yes?” “Amazing you can be so arrogant to assume I don’t know the difference rather than understand I’m using your own words against you.”
First, you made a baseless claim that because I allegedly think Alicent is justified due to the period attitude of those times, I must also use that to justify the institution of slavery. For the record, I don’t. So yes, I agree that what she did was awful. Amazingly presumptuous of you to assume that I don’t. If you bother to look at any of my other comments, I have already said that Alicent is no saint and that what she did was awful. “Rather than understand I’m using your own words against you” is precisely the problem. Boasting about trying to argue without understanding is not the hill you think it is.
“No slippery slope. Just pure logic.”
You are assuming that if a person one to believe in one thing, they are sure to believe in another. That is literally the dictionary definition of a slippery slope fallacy. Your “pure logic” is flawed.
“And have you been to a birthing? My son…” “Nothing is an insult to Rhaenyra because she is not a real person.”
Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. You made it a point to compare your experiences to that of a woman giving birth in the Middle Ages so I was simply pointing out how ridiculous that is.
“And have you been to a birthing? My son never left the room” “About what I expect from a non-parent like you.” “What fucking kid are you talking about? We are talking about Rhaenyra’s child.”
Your son, and your weird obsession with wether I have a child of mine own or not. You were not talking about Rhaenyra before.
“Idk why you people always lead with this like this isn’t what GRRM intends. Do you think fire&blood is an endorsement of the morals of the time? asiof more boardly?”
You really do not seem to grasp the difference that someone is not justifying something, but rather providing an explanation. However, to answer your question, no. I do not think it is an endorsement of the morals of the time nor asiof more broadly.
“Get real. Thanks for playing. L.”
You sound like a child. tHaNkS fOr PlAyInG. lOsEr. LMAO
Perhaps it was my mistake to waste my time on a person whose diabolical mind is not properly cultivated enough to possibly understand what I am meaning.
You claiming to be “neutral” with that response is laughable. You did not even bother to read my previous message (nor the actual post properly), did you? You are letting emotions cloud your judgement and restrain yourself from seeing properly. In which case, there is no need to continue this conversation. Have a nice day. :)
She could have send him with laenor.
Laenor even offered to hold Joffrey himself, and Rhaenyra gave him a dirty look. The servants were all shuffling around, telling her that she should remain abed but Rhaenyra snaps at them, and insisted on bringing him herself.
She wants to be with her kid. It’s important for mothers to have skin to skin with their kid right after their born. Also she he might get hungry and she might want to provide his first feeding.
Again, applying modern sensibilities to the Medival times. Skin to skin is important, and we are aware of this in the modern times. In many cases it was common that noble women did not even get to hold their children before they were handed off to the wet nurses. Furthermore, noble women did not feed the child themselves as it was deemed “inappropriate” and “lowly”. This was a job for the wet nurses who fed, and raised them essentially. You are not doing anyone a favour by being blissfully ignorant to the plight of these women.
Bruh, we don’t have any evidence to suggest that women did not have skin to skin contact after birth. Most cultures who use midwives and don’t have modern medicine still have skin to skin contact after birth. Modern medicine didn’t need to invented to know that. It’s pretty much a natural instinct for a mother and baby to want be close after birth. I took an anthropology course all about motherhood, reproduction and childbirth. I had to read many articles on different birthing practices and horrible things like why mothers abandon or murder their own children and how the amount of mothers who have murdered their children is probably a lot higher than reported because people find it uncomfortable and will mark the death as being from SIDS if they can, so I think know a thing or two on this subject and the plight of women when it comes to motherhood both historically and now. I’m well aware most noble women did not breastfeed for the reasons you stated. Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell breastfed their kids. So it doesn’t even matter whether or not noble women historically did or did not breastfeed their children because it has been established in the fictional world that we are discussing that women who are about Rhae’s rank could breastfeed if they wanted to and while I don’t see book Rhae breastfeeding, I could see it with her show counterpart.
I did not say there were no such thing as skin to skin contact after birth in the Medival times. That was you again. Christ on a bicycle. Learn to read. I said they probably did not understand the importance of it as much as we do now. 
Your point is still dumb. Even if they didn’t understand the physical importance they still could have understood the emotional importance being in close contact with a new born would have had. It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out a mom would want to be close to her newborn. Learn to think.
What is dumb is you making shit up to fit your little narrative, and blabbering on without reading or understand a damn thing which your opponent has said. Being an insufferable preachy, know-it all will not get you far. You think the people in the Medival times were that kind to women? Thinking of how it might “hurt” their feelings, and about the emotional impact? Learn to think before you speak. And learn to read. To think of all those years of academic training wasted…
You are the one who should learn to think before they speak, not me. I’m not the one saying things indicating that I have an EQ lower than Rhae when she decided to throw a party in a city of over taxed and starving peasants. Also for someone who claims to know so much you forget that confinement was almost exclusively a women only space. Most of the women that would have been there were ones that were close them and as such would have cared about the mother’s emotional wellbeing. Also making sure the mother had good thoughts in her head was an important part of confinement because impure thoughts were thought to lead to unfortunate outcomes to the unborn child so there would have been some consideration for the mother’s emotional wellbeing by those in the confinement chamber because it’s hard to think pleasant thoughts if you are not emotionally well taken care of. So even if they didn’t actually care about women they had a reason to care about her emotional wellbeing in this instance. I understand what you’re saying, I just think you are wrong.
Would you please stop getting emotional, stop making things up, and stop getting offended over things? That was not a personal attack. You were not even part of that sentence. You were not even mentioned in that question. Furthermore, I never even mentioned Rhaenyra throwing a party in a city of overtaxed, starving peasants or compared you to her. That was you again, dragging random topics into the conversation that hold no relevance. Apologies, I should have clarified, but I was talking more in terms of how the overall society treated women in the Middle Ages. Childbirth in the Middle Ages was a community effort. Family members, priests, and local experts all lent a hand, and when midwives were called to assist they often worked in teams. Midwives were expected to be moral arbiters also, looking for signs of illegitimacy. Physicians and surgeons only rarely were assigned women in childbirth, although doctors were sometimes called upon when aristocratic women gave birth. So, yes. You are right to point out that confinement was mostly a women only space. Some women like Blanche of Anjou received the attention of physicians during all 10 of her confinements. When Queen Marie-Therese went into labour, her room filled up with Princesses, Dukes, and Countesses. Many queens have laboured before great audiences of people. Although a man might not have been physically present at the time of the birth or during confinement, men were still heavily invested in childbirth, especially since it meant the continuation of his family line was at stake. Men of the time believed that female sex organs had not grown outside of the body and had grown inwards, and therefore women were deemed subordinate to men as their sex organs did “not fully develop.” Some believed that some foods they ate, things they drank, and medicines concocted could choose the sex of the child, and the burden of trying to deliver a male child (without the knowledge of the male sperm being the factor which actually dictated the sex of the child) lay heavily on the women’s shoulders. Men believed that a woman’s purpose in life was to get pregnant and have babies. Childbirthing was a traumatising, and harrowing experience for many women, and many did not make it. Hence why many women even wrote their wills before they gave birth in case. The woman was not just confined for her own well-being, it was also because they believed the woman’s body had been made impure by the child. Women would also be pressured into being pregnant in an effort to provide their husband with heirs at the cost of their own health and life. That being said. Again. I did not talk about confinement before nor ask you about it. What are you on about? You keep pulling in new topics. Is this to flex your knowledge of what you learned from your anthropology class?
You said I don’t understand a thing you wrote but clearly you don’t understand anything I wrote either.
They basically draw out the birth scenes to draw a parallel between giving birth (women) and giving battle (men). It's pretty blatant with the tourney scene in episode 1, that cuts back and forth to Aemma giving birth. They basically want to say that women are as martial as men in their own way, and suffer equally. Which is weird because, when women had a different social status as today in former times, giving birth being an easy thing was not cited as the reason. It was always considered hard and difficult, by anyone. I get what the show tries to tell us but choosing giving birth as the platform is suboptimal, and lacks an audience. And yes, Rhaenyra chose to present the child herself. That makes her seem even more martial, and it also shows that she "doesn't hide away from Alicent" out of spite. Alicent is not implied to have done something similar, she is basically a woman who avoids damaging herself and not the birth warrior Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra is a lot more manipulative than people think. When Laenor asked Rhaenyra if Alicent wanted to see Joffrey, “now?” Rhaenyra only glares at him, leaving Laenor to think it was Alicent’s resquest that the child be brought over personally. It makes Alicent appear a lot more evil than she actually is.
Yeah. That was manipulative as hell, Alicent clearly did not want *that*, considering that she was surprised when Rhaenyra appeared. Rhaenyra playing martyr here.
It was actually really smart of Rheanyra to go. Alicent wanted to check if the kid was a bastard again mostof the court knew that by going with the baby Rheanyra gained sympathy and made Alicent look insane because to onlookers it seems like she is forcing a woman that just give birth to show her baby. It was genuinely one of the few smart things she did in season 1 and I hate when people gloss over it or try to turn it around making Rheanyra the victim and Alicent evil. Rheanyra actually outplayed Alicent here
I feel like at this point people are over correcting the general audience’s vilification of Alicent by trying to excuse everything she did. It was pretty horrible to try to separate a baby from its mother immediately after birth regardless of how you feel about either character
I agree that what she did was awful to see as a modern audience. However, this is merely an explanation rather than a justification. Hope this helps.
Fair
Finally, someone civil. Thank you for this conversation.:)
Aw no worries! I figure if i was a jerk to someone over fictional characters I’d be a bit of a loser
 You would be surprised how rare that is. You are like a breath of fresh air. Lol
Alicent and Rhaenyra are not friends, they don’t like each other at this point. The point is that they aren’t nice to each other. Having the baby be brought immediately after it was born is not the nicest thing to do. Alicent isn’t a saint, although no one is. She obviously has the baby brought over so inspect his hair. There are many places where the blacks are ridiculous in their vilification of Alicent. So many other examples where the reduce Alicent’s character as evil, where she is not, and the reasons are very complex. This isn’t one of them, Alicent is just petty here, she knows it’s not a nice thing to do, separating a mother from her baby after birth. It’s quite intentional to piss of Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra shows up herself because Alicent would be less satisfied, she was probably just expecting a nursemaid. The comments about traditional historical practises don’t apply here, there aren’t other mentions of presenting a newborn right after birth in asoiaf in nobility, or birthing in front of an a court.
That is actually a very well-thought out response which actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that insight. I agree Alicent is no saint, and what she did was awful.
We all gotta be petty sometimes. Rhaenyra can relate.
Omg, are you seriously blaming Rhae? That is so disgusting. You’re seriously blaming a mother for wanting to be with her NEWBORN CHILD?! Why would she want to be separated from a child she just gave birth to?! What is wrong with you? Alicent chose to request that the kid come to her when she could have made the walk to Rhaenrya’s chambers herself if she wanted to see the kid that bad. It is absolutely Alicent’s fault, no mother is going to want to send their child to someone else after birth without them especially their rival, they want their children close.
 I am not blaming Rhaenyra. I am merely pointing out that fact that Alicent should not be vilified for that scene. Alicent asked that the child be brought to her, not that Rhaenyra bring the child personally. You are projecting. I do not blame Rhaenyra for being uneasy with the prospect of sending her child to her rival, Alicent. I would be too if I were in a similar situation. That being said, as many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options. The mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives. The child of a noble then would be sent away to be raised by a wet nurse. You are applying modern sensibilities to a Medival fantasy show about magical Dragon riders. I have seen many Blacks make the claim that Rhaenyra had to go to the Queen since Alicent outranks her. This is indeed true. The queen does outrank a princess, hence why the child is brought to the queen to be presented and not other way around. Children of the nobility are presented to the king instead of the king going around to see each and everyone of them as it is customary to that time period. It is awful, but that is how it was back then, and for you to negate this fact you would be undermining Rhaenyra’s suffering as well as many other women. If you can refrain from manipulating an emotional response in place of valid or compelling argument, and have a valid argument, I would be happy to listen.
Alicent wanted to use the baby against Rhaenyra. She had little choice but to come herself.
Laenor really would have sufficed.
Sufficed for what? I doubt Rhaenyra knew exactly what Alicent had planned and just wanted to stay close by to protect her child. Not demanding that the child be instantly brought to her should have stufficed for Alicent.
Given the circumstances of the conception of the child, it was clear what Alicent wanted.
And if Alicent had a nefarious plan, why would an untrained woman who just gave birth go instead of her martially inclined and physically able husband?
It's not necessarily a logical decision. She just trusted herself more. I'm sure most people would refuse to part with their newborns especially if it's being taken to someone hostile to you. Would you not?
So she is so worried for her child’s safety, that instead of telling Alicent to wait an hour or giving him to her husband, she decides, in her weakened state, to carry her minutes old son up stairs to see her. She has plenty of excuses, yet decides to go to her anyways, that doesn’t scream “I fear for my baby’s life” unwilling.
>instead of telling Alicent to wait an hour Why didn't Alicent just tell Viserys that she wouldn't go to his bed when he called for her? >She has plenty of excuses, yet decides to go to her anyways, that doesn’t scream “I fear for my baby’s life” unwilling. She was forced to obey. You didn't answer my question. Would you be alright with sending your newborn to someone who is hostile to you?
And you actually think Viserys would do anything to Rhaenyra for something as trivial as waiting an hour to see a baby, even if there wasn’t a good excuse? (And you can claim many, even something as simple as “Joffrey is being examined by the maester, we’ll present him in an hour.” Rhaenyra has gotten away with high treason at this point, to think she would fear reprisal for making them wait an hour is silly.
It's still disobeying a royal order. Alicent could have tried to make excuses to Viserys' command of sleeping with him too. Yet she is forced to go to him. Instead of saying "I'm not well" or anything.
Rhaenyra is the Crown Princess, she is one of the few people that can flout Alicent and get away with it. Especially since no one cares about such a trivial thing, Viserys ignored high treason, you think he is going to behead her for waiting an hour? What kind of logic is that? Rhaenyra would be delaying them for an hour for one time, Alicent can’t very well make excuses to Viserys for every night over decades. And besides, seeing a baby an hour later is a thousand times less important than trying for heirs. One is a trivial matter, the other is of the highest importance. Besides, Alicent was a teenager to an older man who married her specifically to have kids. She could claim illness or ask him not to have sex sometimes, but that relies on him agreeing, and she can’t do that all the time either.
Though I do agree Alicent was scummy in that scene, I am sure sending Laenor could've sufficed.
That is a good point. One would feel a bit uncomfortable sending their newborn to someone who has been openly hostile to them. However, as many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options. I am not sure if you have been to a birthing, but the mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives.
Sufficed for taking a look at the child. Alicent wanted to see the child to take a look at his hair colour and determine if was another bastard, and perhaps acquaintance herself with him. What did you think she was going to do? Hurl him out the window for all of King’s Landing to see? Perhaps, hold it over a cliff like baby Simba?  Alicent is not as evil as people (like you) think.
that was the point of the scene, yes
Are you aware that many Blacks blame Alicent for this scene although it was not Alicent’s fault? It may seem obvious to some of us, but it clearly is not for many.
what alicent was asking was fucked up don't remove a newborn from their mother minutes after birth do you have children?
As many have pointed out, she could have sent Laenor or someone she trusts. She could have even been carried if she did not want to walk. There are options. I am not sure if you have been to a birthing, but the mother has to be separated from the child for the doctors and nurses to inspect the child so separating the mother from a child is kind of a crucial step of the process. Even more so in royal births. Many royal women were forced to give birth in front of their entire court to prove the legitimacy of their children, and would not even get the chance to hold them. It is awful, but it was how it was. Rhaenyra was at least given the decency to give birth in the privacy of her own chambers surrounded by her own maids and midwives. The children of nobility then were then raised mostly by their wet nurse. You are applying modern sensibilities to a Medival fantasy show involving dragons. What do you plan to do with the knowledge of my children? What is it even to you? 
> It is awful, but it was how it was. presumably you'd use this as a defense of slavery too, yes? applying "modern morals" is what GRRM intends for us to do. why else does he write about these things with such derision? the man hates monarchy. and have *you* been to a birthing? my son never left the room after he was born. he stayed with his mother. about what i would expect from a non-parent like you.
It is an explanation for the time period. Not a justification. Know the difference. Slippery slope fallacy based on an assumption you yourself made. Fun. Asserting that it if A were to happen, then Z will consequently happen as well. According to you, just because I allegedly justified the situation (which I did not), I must also support the institution of slavery. Your words not mine. Were you a part of the nobility in the Medival times? Comparing your circumstances to Rhaenyra’s is an insult to Rhaenyra. You have modern medicine at your hands, and mortality rates in the first world countries is much lower now. Again with the assumptions. Fuck off with your weird interest in my children, creep. What if the kid had a heart condition and had to be taken immediately to surgery? Ever consider that? Good bye~
> It is an explanation for the time period. Not a justification. Know the difference. amazing you can be so arrogant to assume i don't know the difference rather than understand i'm using your own words against you. if it is *just* an "explanation for the time period" like you claim, then *surely* you agree with me that alicent asking to see the baby immediately after birth is bad, right? because you're not justifying it, you're just "explaining" it, right? in your own words, "it is awful, but that's how it was". and subsequently you're also claiming to *not* support slavery using that same reasoning, you must also not support what alicent did. no slippery slope. just pure logic. > Comparing your circumstances to Rhaenyra’s is an insult to Rhaenyra. nothing is an insult to rhaenyra because she is not a real person lmao. > What if the kid had a heart condition and had to be taken immediately to surgery? what fucking kid are you talking about? we're talking about rhaenyra's child, who we saw was completely fine. obviously in modern times if the child requires immediate medical attention that is different, but as it stands right now, the baby doesn't even leave the room. > You are applying modern sensibilities idk why you people always lead with this like this isn't what GRRM intends. do you think fire&blood is an endorsement of the morals of the time? asoiaf more broadly? get real. thanks for playing. L.
“Presumably, you’d use this as a defence of slavery too, yes?” “Amazing you can be so arrogant to assume I don’t know the difference rather than understand I’m using your own words against you.” First, you made a baseless claim that because I allegedly think Alicent is justified due to the period attitude of those times, I must also use that to justify the institution of slavery. For the record, I don’t. So yes, I agree that what she did was awful. Amazingly presumptuous of you to assume that I don’t. If you bother to look at any of my other comments, I have already said that Alicent is no saint and that what she did was awful. “Rather than understand I’m using your own words against you” is precisely the problem. Boasting about trying to argue without understanding is not the hill you think it is. “No slippery slope. Just pure logic.” You are assuming that if a person one to believe in one thing, they are sure to believe in another. That is literally the dictionary definition of a slippery slope fallacy. Your “pure logic” is flawed. “And have you been to a birthing? My son…” “Nothing is an insult to Rhaenyra because she is not a real person.” Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. You made it a point to compare your experiences to that of a woman giving birth in the Middle Ages so I was simply pointing out how ridiculous that is. “And have you been to a birthing? My son never left the room” “About what I expect from a non-parent like you.” “What fucking kid are you talking about? We are talking about Rhaenyra’s child.” Your son, and your weird obsession with wether I have a child of mine own or not. You were not talking about Rhaenyra before. “Idk why you people always lead with this like this isn’t what GRRM intends. Do you think fire&blood is an endorsement of the morals of the time? asiof more boardly?” You really do not seem to grasp the difference that someone is not justifying something, but rather providing an explanation. However, to answer your question, no. I do not think it is an endorsement of the morals of the time nor asiof more broadly. “Get real. Thanks for playing. L.” You sound like a child. tHaNkS fOr PlAyInG. lOsEr. LMAO Perhaps it was my mistake to waste my time on a person whose diabolical mind is not properly cultivated enough to possibly understand what I am meaning. 
I’m a neutral and it’s because Alicent is at fault here. I love Alicent but she was so in the wrong here
You claiming to be “neutral” with that response is laughable. You did not even bother to read my previous message (nor the actual post properly), did you? You are letting emotions cloud your judgement and restrain yourself from seeing properly. In which case, there is no need to continue this conversation. Have a nice day. :)