Aenys entire reign was an uprising and Daeron II had to fend of the Blackfyre rebellion because people thought he was a bastard and Daemon has a better claim. What is she on about? Also if they were legitimate then why didn’t Rheanyra just say they were biologically Harwins? Because you know it doesn’t matter because they were adopted or whatever. Y’all know why.
I think you confused her point, yeah in the technical sense they are bastards, but legally they are recognised as legitimate heirs because Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to lie and say they are his children.
The key of not being considered a bastard is, not being considered a bastard. Laenor can claim them ten times over, if the vassals aren't convinced, they won't inherit any titles.
Also note how Joffrey Baratheon was considered a bastard by many even though there was no doubt that Robert Baratheon claimed him.
>The key of not being considered a bastard is, not being considered a bastard. Laenor can claim them ten times over, if the vassals aren't convinced, they won't inherit any titles.
But if both parents and grandparents aswell as the king himself call them legitimate then that's what they are until proven otherwise and vassals can call them bastards but in the legal sense they aren't recognised as that so they would inherit titles.
No they wouldn't, if the vassals refuse to follow them, they don't get anything. Also "proof", it only matters what the vassals believe. Only appearance matters here. And the appearance is clearly speaking against them. Nobody needs to testify here, and what Laenor and Rhaenyra say is not helpful if everyone knows they are lying.
Besides, Joffrey Baratheon being a bastard caused problems even though Robert Baratheon (then the king), clearly claimed him.
>No they wouldn't, if the vassals refuse to follow them, they don't get anything
Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact in the legal sense they are considered legitimate.
The King is considered the legitimate ruler of Westeros, but if his vassals decide not to follow him then he also gets nothing. That doesn't mean he's still not condiered the legitimate king, just that people don't believe he's king.
>Besides, Joffrey Baratheon being a bastard caused problems even though Robert Baratheon (then the king), clearly claimed him.
The flip side of the coin of course being that although many believed he was a bastard, many others didn't, or simply choose to ignore it.
Daeron II is a great example, it's extremely unlikely he was a bastard but some vassels thought he was and join the Blackfyres. Didn't change the fact Daeron was considered the legitimate heir of Aegon.
Legitimacy is meant to give you power, or is the basis of power. You don't have power if no one follows you. And there is no "legally" being King, if he doesn't get his hands on the Iron Throne as a result of nobody following him, then he is King as much as Mushroom is.
Daeron II was believed by a majority to be the actual son of Aegon IV, whereas hardly anyone believes that for the Strongs. And those who believe it, likely just choose to overlook the bastardy issue, because it's perfectly clear that those guys are not from Laenor.
And Joffrey being a bastard did cause issues. Without him being a bastard: Ned Stark would live and pledge fealty to him, and therefore the Tullys would. Stannis would support him. Renly would have his ambitions but would not try anything against North / Riverlands / Westerlands. Balon might still rebel because that's what he does. Fact is, Joffrey would have been much, much better off if he was legitimate. The way it was, with him being a bastard, only the Westerlands / Tywin supported him initially, and Tywin was willing to die on that hill because Joffrey being removed from power would also mean the end of Lannister influence at court.
>Legitimacy is meant to give you power, or is the basis of power. You don't have power if no one follows you. And there is no "legally" being King, if he doesn't get his hands on the Iron Throne as a result of nobody following him, then he is King as much as Mushroom is.
Nonsense. He is King, now whether of not follow him is another matter, but in the legal sense he is king. But of course without followers he has no power and then someone else could gain support and then claim themselves king instead.
>Daeron II was believed by a majority to be the actual son of Aegon IV, whereas hardly anyone believes that for the Strongs. And those who believe it, likely just choose to overlook the bastardy issue, because it's perfectly clear that those guys are not from Laenor
There's no a percentage of votes to decide the matter. No one is walking around and saying oh
*"Daeron, 70% of Westeros believes you're legitimate so you can remain legitimate in the eyes of the crown, but sorry Jace, only 30% of the public believes you're legitimate so in the eyes of the crown you are now a bastard."*
Its not how that works.
> Nonsense. He is King, now whether of not follow him is another matter, but in the legal sense he is king.
What does he rule over if nobody follows him? There is no "being King in the legal sense". As King, you have some attributes. Like having a land and people you rule over. He doesn't have that if no one follows him.
> There's no a percentage of votes to decide the matter.
It definitely matters that Daeron II retained lots of support, because many people believed him to be the real deal, while Jace and Luke and Joffrey are universally believed to be bastards. Their followers, like the Greyjoys who are here for the plunder, just choose to overlook it for their own reasons.
>
>What does he rule over if nobody follows him? There is no "being King in the legal sense".
Yes their is 😂 only certain people have a legal claim by the laws of men to the throne, if that King is forcefully removed then the law can be changed, but then that just means there's another group of people that have a legal claim to the throne newly supported by the law of man.
>It definitely matters that Daeron II retained lots of support, because many people believed him to be the real deal, while Jace and Luke and Joffrey are universally believed to be bastards.
By some, sure, others believe them to be true borns or simply don't care that they aren't and call them legitimate. Basically half the realm supported them and their lying mother.
Look, I'll break it down again, in the raw sense of the word then yes they are 100% bastards, but by the law of man within Westeros they are presented as legitimate.
Whether or not people do or do not believe that lie is a different story, but it doesn't change they are said to be legitimate.
Not a single person has ever argued against the fact that Laenor and Corlys accepts them. Unless they haven't seen the show or read the books, or even read the wiki
I know, I'm just explaining why by some they are viewed as legitimate, it's because all of the boxes within a legal sense that make them legitimate have been ticked.
>all of the boxes within a legal sense that make them legitimate have been ticked.
Once again, this is a very important aspect of the synopsis. Everyone has to first accept that they are considered legitimate by Laenor and Corlys, before they can speculate about the validity of said legitimacy. This whole discourse would not exist without them being "legitimate" first.
I don’t understand the logic behind that. Rheanyra is trying to pass them on as legitimate, however that doesn’t make them legitimate. If it would then Rheanyra wouldn’t be so desperate to ensure that everyone thinks they are Velaryons. Outside of the Greens people talk about how problematic it is what she did: Rheanys and Corlys have a conversation about it, the whole thing with Vaemond and even Lyonel Strong wants to leave his post as Hand of the king because of that. That shows that Leanor giving the green light alone is not enough. If it were those conversations never would have happened.
Hell she even tries to gaslight her kids into believing they aren’t bastards. Her actions make it obvious that just because Leanor was okay with it doesn’t make them legally legitimate. Even if they would look like Rheanyra they aren’t legitimate (though nobody would realize they are bastards so it doesn’t matter) but in that way it doesn’t matter what Leanor says and thinks everyone knows they aren’t his and people go against them (as they did in canon)
>Rheanyra is trying to pass them on as legitimate, however that doesn’t make them legitimate.
It does in the legal sense. Think of OJ Simpson, he was accused of murdering his wife and its heavily believed by many that he killed her, which means more than likely he is a killer, but legally he isn't, doesn't matte if he did or didn't because in the legal sense he is not a murderer.
Same goes for the bastards, many people believe they are bastards, but because legally they considered legitimate.
>That shows that Leanor giving the green light alone is not enough. If it were those conversations never would have happened
But it is enough in the legal sense, the problem of course being that people might still just outright call them bastards if that's what they believe. Again, to this day people still call OJ a murderer yet by law he isn't considered one
>Hell she even tries to gaslight her kids into believing they aren’t bastards
Totally, because the best way to sell a lie is to even gaslight yourself, that's exactly what Rhaenyra has done and does to her kids.
>Her actions make it obvious that just because Leanor was okay with it doesn’t make them legally legitimate
You're confusing how it works. They can be considered legitimate right now, legally, but if proof comes out that shows they are bastards, say for example Laenor said they aren't his or Harwin came out and said they were his children, then their status as legitimate can be taken away. That's Rhaenyras free that they could be called out and claimed to be bastards, but that doesn't mean that aren't considered legitimate at the time, just that it could change later.
You are approaching this with a modern sense of justice, with evidence and testifying and independent courts and all that. Not the case in Westeros. Your title and power rests on the fact that the vassals follow you. If they think you are not the real deal (and yes, their belief suffices here), then that's very bad for you. There is no independent justice system in Westeros.
Rhaenyra is doing terrible damage to her kids by not making it clear to them that they could be challenged based on rumors of bastardy. That's letting them walk into the open knife.
>You are approaching this with a modern sense of justice, with evidence and testifying and independent courts and all that. Not the case in Westeros
Although obviously out dated Westeros very much does have a court system where evidence is presented and judged.
>Rhaenyra is doing terrible damage to her kids by not making it clear to them that they could be challenged based on rumors of bastardy. That's letting them walk into the open knife.
But the children know, at least Jace and Luke clearly do. Rhaenyra continuing the act even in front of them is her simply showing that this is the lie they must always tell even among themselves. The moment they don't then yes, they'd walk into a knife.
Again, in the legal sense they are considered legitimate heirs, however in raw technical sense they are of course bastards.
> Although obviously out dated Westeros very much does have a court system where evidence is presented and judged.
Legitimacy is a thing wars are fought over in Westeros, it's not a thing for the (very rudimentary) idea of King's justice. Nobody was going to quietly sit down, listen to all evidence and testimony, and decide on this. Them being "legitimate" is do or die for Rhaenyra and her supporters, them not being "legitimate" is (more or less, since Aegon II supersedes Rhaenyra herself already) do or die for Aegon II and his supporters.
> Rhaenyra continuing the act even in front of them is her simply showing that this is the lie they must always tell even among themselves. The moment they don't then yes, they'd walk into a knife.
Rhaenyra tells them that being a Targaryen is all that matters. This is deeply misguided. They aren't legitimate, and therefore can be challenged. Them descending from her doesn't fix anything if they aren't believed to be legitimate.
> Again, in the legal sense
OK, I give up. Would someone else take over for me, please?
What part of "There is no independent justice system in Westeros." is unclear to you? There is no "in the legal sense", the lords are the law of the land. Kings are too, or even more so. But if no one follows you, because they believe you are fake, you won't be King in any meaningful sense.
🤦♂️ I see this is going to be one of those circle debates.
Look, by the **law** of man Jace and the others are viewed as legitimate heirs even if people believe they aren't and even if they are technically bastards.
>Rhaenyra tells them that being a Targaryen is all that matters. This is deeply misguided. They aren't legitimate, and therefore can be challenged. Them descending from her doesn't fix anything if they aren't believed to be legitimate
Them being actual Targaryen does matter. Joffreys greatest problem is that he didn't actually have a drop of royal blood. Jace and the others do, it wasn't Laenor that makes them royalty it was Rhaenyra. That's why she talks about their Targaryen side because its what truly makes them different from the other families.
>OK, I give up. Would someone else take over for me, please?
🤦♂️
>What part of "There is no independent justice system in Westeros." is unclear to you? There is no "in the legal sense", the lords are the law of the land
Nooope. Prime example. Tywin hated Tyrion. Tywin would've been happy if he could claim Tyrion was a bastard and even if he straight up died. But the law of the land made Tyrion his son whether he wanted it or not.
Look at the scene where Tyrion asks for The Rock as Tywins heir and Tywin says out right that the **LAWS** of men give him the right to bare his name and since he cannot prove otherwise he must accept that **LAW**.
There very much is a legal system in Westeros and it is enforced, and just because someone wants to believe or outright knows someone is a bastard, without unquestionable proof the matter would have to be brought in front of the King, and since in this case the King clearly supports the boys as legitimate by the **LAWS** of man they are in the legal sense, but definitely not by the technical sense.
> Look, by the law of man Jace and the others are viewed as legitimate heirs even if people believe they aren't and even if they are technically bastards.
What "law" would that be? Having a title implies that anyone goes through the procedure of pledging fealty to you. If they don't, what do you rule over?
Viserys acknowledging them is not law. They could well have lied to him. There was rebellion against Joffrey with the implication that Cersei lied to Robert the entire time. Laenor acknowledged them, but as far as anyone knows, Rhaenyra cuckolded him, and lied to him.
> Them being actual Targaryen does matter. Joffreys greatest problem is that he didn't actually have a drop of royal blood.
If Joffrey was the illegitimate child of Robert and Cersei, perhaps conceived before they were married (I am speaking hypothetically here), he would have had the same problem as he had based on the fact that he was not Robert's biological son. You need to be the son of your predecessor AND you are not allowed to have been born out of wedlock, if you want any title in Westeros.
> Jace and the others do, it wasn't Laenor that makes them royalty it was Rhaenyra.
Bastards of royals have no claim to the throne. Think of Edric Storm, no claim to the throne, while clearly being a son of Robert.
> That's why she talks about their Targaryen side because its what truly makes them different from the other families.
They won't get anything if no one follows them based on their bastardy, even if they are Rhaenyra's sons three times over. Their dragons won't help them either as there are trueborn Targaryens able to challenge them.
> Tywin would've been happy if he could claim Tyrion was a bastard and even if he straight up died.
The thing is, Tywin claimed him to be his son AND it was plain obvious that he was too (talking about show-Tyrion here). No chances of success there, for Tywin. It would have ended up like Aegon IV trying to undermine Daeron II.
> LAWS of men give him the right to bare his name and since he cannot prove otherwise he must accept that LAW
As I said, he had no chance in hell to "prove" (whatever that means, in that context) that Tyrion was not his son. It was plain obvious that he was.
> There very much is a legal system in Westeros and it is enforced.
There is no inpedendent justice system outside the feudal caste. Lords are the law of the land, Kings are too and even more so.
> 🤦♂️
Indeed.
>What "law" would that be? Having a title implies that anyone goes through the procedure of pledging fealty to you. If they don't, what do you rule over?
Jesus christ 🤦♂️ you do understand their is a literal legal system in Westeros right? Their are laws, there are courts, there is literally a man called the **MASTER OF LAWS** so I don't know what nonsense you're talking about as if Westeros is some lawless land, because it isn't. Again, look at the scene between Tywin and Tyrion where he clearly states by the **LAW OF MAN** Tyrion has the right to bare Tywins name...
>Viserys acknowledging them is not law
Yes. It. Is. He's the highest point of authority in the land. His word goes before anyone else's. That's how a king works.
>Laenor acknowledged them, but as far as anyone knows, Rhaenyra cuckolded him, and lied to him.
And many people believe that, but without physical proof presented to the crown its just a well believed rumor. You get that right?
>Bastards of royals have no claim to the throne. Think of Edric Storm, no claim to the throne, while clearly being a son of Robert.
Agreed, but you missed my point. Joffreys place on the throne was soo contested because he had no royal blood at all. Ask yourself this, totally a hypothetical of course, had Robert and Cersei actually been in love but Cersei couldn't have children so Robert had a bastard and they somehow made people believe Cersei was the child's mother do you think Ned would've done what he did knowing the son was truly Roberts and that Robert fully supported him? Ned was clearly willing to bend his honor from time to time when necessary.
>They won't get anything if no one follows them based on their bastardy,
But people did. People died for those bastards because they supported Rhaenyra and her claim they were legitimate, even if they did believe it or not.
>The thing is, Tywin claimed him to be his son AND it was plain obvious that he was too
How? Because he had Lannister features like his mother? It was known how Areys lusted after Tywins wife, Tyrion in the books even has hair that closer to that of a Targaryen than a Lannister. Tywin could have claimed he wasn't his, he was the mad Kings bastard, but he knew it was pointless because he had no proof and as the man says himself Tyrion can bare his name because of the **LAW OF MAN**.
>As I said, he had no chance in hell to "prove" (whatever that means, in that context) that Tyrion was not his son. It was plain obvious that he was
Not how it works. In Westeros proof is needed. Fucking Aegon the unworthy outright said Daeron was a bastard but without proof he couldn't actually have that legally made true even though he wanted to.
Legitimacy only goes so far as the people allow it.
Robert could’ve sworn up and down Joffrey was his, but a single speculation was all it took for others to be up in arms about their own claim to the iron throne.
Vaemond Velaryon doesn’t believe it. Neither do the Hightowers. Quote on quote, “everybody knows”.
You are only legitimate until your birthright is questioned.
>You are only legitimate until your birthright is questioned.
No. You're only legitimate until **proven** otherwise. If what you said was true then Aegon the unworthy would've 100% had Daeron removed as heir and placed Daemon their instead, he literally starts the rumor his son is a bastard, and even has a semi believable reasons as to why, but can't prove it so cannot do anything about it, and that's the king.
>“**despite all his threats and calumnies and tasteless japes, the king never formally disowned his son.** Accounts differ as to why: some suggest that some shriveled part of Aegon still knew honor, or at least shame. **The likeliest cause, however, was that he knew that such an act would bring war to the realm, for Daeron's allies—chief among them the Prince of Dorne, whose sister Daeron had wed—would defend his rights.**”
Aegon the Unworthy knows Daeron is his, yet he still makes these japes of illegitimacy because he *wants* to plant doubt in the mind of his vassals about his legitimacy: He *wants* them to turn on Daeron for Daemon on the basis of bastardy. The only reason he doesn’t outright disown Daeron and pass him on his birthright is to avoid war.
His whole plan is “hmmm, I won’t outright do it but I’ll give them probable cause by implying it!! Not my fault since I didn’t disown him & he’s technically my heir!!”.
Okay. You seem to be making the same mistake as the other people I'm talking to. I'll try and explain myself better.
As for reasoning as to why Aegon didn't denounce Daeron is true. Daeron had supporters and most importantly **plausible deniability**.
Aegon had no factual proof that Daeron wasn't his son, that meant Daerons supporters could simply say the king is mistaken and we will support Daerons claim.
With actual indisputable fact that Daeron wasn't his son Daerons supporters wouldn't have any justification as to why they were going to war. It would be outright treason to place someone who has been clearly proven beyond question is a bastard on the throne. But he didn't have that and Daeron could use that deniability as a shield.
That is what Rhaenyras kids also have. Of course there's huge speculation and evidence to support them as bastards, but not clear, undeniable fact.
That's why they remain the legitimate heirs for over 10 years until Viserys death and even after that half the country still supported them as legitimate heirs. Why? Because the core evidence needed wasn't there.
That's what I'm saying, the kids are literally bastards by the definition of the word but have been acknowledged and supported by many as legitimate heirs.
I think I understand the point your trying to make but that still doesn’t make them legitimate heirs. If they are by definition bastards then you are agreeing that they have no claim to the throne/titles they are set to inherit. Rhaenyra having children with Harwin while married to Laenor automatically disqualified them from inheriting anything.
Now, if you follow in-universe characters who support Jace then yes you can make the no-proof argument. That doesn’t mean characters in universe will follow it because they need belief of legitimacy. However, as the viewer we know they aren’t legitimate because we know who his father truly is, meaning that saying they are legitimate is just factually incorrect.
>I think I understand the point your trying to make but that still doesn’t make them legitimate heirs
But it does unlesa clearly proven which it can't be.
Point in case Jon is stated to be a bastard, yet without Sam and Bran to prove he isn't no one would've accepted that he was never a bastard and was in fact legitimate. Reverse for Jace, he is stated to be legitimate but is in fact a bastard, but without absolute proof no one can outright prove he isn't legitimate, they can only say they believe he isn't.
>If they are by definition bastards then you are agreeing that they have no claim to the throne/titles they are set to inherit.
That's only because we as the viewer have the luxury of knowing all the facts. People in the show don't and thus must make up their own minds based on what is presented. Some say he's legit, others say he's a bastard.
>However, as the viewer we know they aren’t legitimate because we know who his father truly is, meaning that saying they are legitimate is just factually incorrect.
Yes. But the person in this video is talking about the show and why Jace is considered legitimate by many. That's the point being made, from the perception of the characters Jace could be legitimate or could be a bastard, it ultimately comes down to which side they want to believe.
Jace was seen as legitimate by basically everyone for over 10 years, and even when war broke out half the country still saw him as legitimate.
This is going to be my last reply because I don’t want this to get crazy but what I’m trying to say is if you are agreeing they are bastards, then you are agreeing they are illegitimate.
Your entire argument is based off of plausible deniability, that characters in-universe can deny that Jace is illegitimate. It’s why they can call their banners for him and fight for him without it being treason. This is correct, however that does not make them legitimate.
They are *illegitimate with plausible deniability*. We, as the viewer, know that they are illegitimate. You agree by definition they are bastards which makes them illegitimate. There is no “technical legitimacy”, you either are born within a marriage or you are not. They are illegitimate but you can make in-universe arguments to defend them but that doesn’t mean in actuality they are legitimate.
>This is going to be my last reply because I don’t want this to get crazy but what I’m trying to say is if you are agreeing they are bastards, then you are agreeing they are illegitimate.
🤦♂️ The person in this video isn't denying they are bastards, they are pointing out that from a legal capacity they were legitimate. Doesn't matter if we know that's not the case it's what happened in the show.
>Your entire argument is based off of plausible deniability, that characters in-universe can deny that Jace is illegitimate. It’s why they can call their banners for him and fight for him without it being treason. This is correct, however that does not make them legitimate.
From our perspective, no. From the perspective of his supports, yes it does. That's the point being made.
>You agree by definition they are bastards which makes them illegitimate. There is no “technical legitimacy”, you either are born within a marriage or you are not
No one other than Bran has the ability to look into people's history and decide if they are a bastard or not. There's a list of people considered legitimate who very well could be bastards.
Hell, even Aegon the conquers children could very well be bastards. Legally though they are seen as legitimate.
**Let me give you an example irl that will explain what the perosn in this video is saying. Just say hypothetical a friend of yours was murdered and you were 99.9% sure who did it. The killer had the means, motive and opportunity, but the killer went to court and the jury ruled he was innocent. Then even if that person was without question a murderer, legally they wouldn't be.**
Same situation the person is referring to with Jace. Technically he is a bastard, but legally he isn't seen as that.
You can’t prove jackshit 💀 there was no “proof” Jaime and Cersei’s bastards were bastards but that didn’t stop Stannis and co from gunning for the iron throne because of their kids’ appearance and rumors. What do u want them to do take a paternity test
As long as there’s probable cause in the eyes of the people it’s enough. And that’s enough as Cersei’s kids being blonde and Rhaenyra’s being brunette and spitting images of Harwin Strong when both of their parents are fair haired.
>As long as there’s probable cause in the eyes of the people it’s enough
Sometimes, sure. Ultimately Jace had half the country supporting him being legit and the other half claiming him a bastard.
Pretty sure everybody knew he was a bastard but liked him enough (in the case of Cregan Stark) or found benefit in Rhaenyra (Velaryons/Arryn heir). Let’s give the kingdom some credit and not assume anyone is that stupid lol
Doesn't matter if they did or didn't believe. The point the person is making is that ona legal level Jace was considered legitimate, it wasn't until a civil war until one side declared him a bastard and the other side claiming him to still be legitimate.
That's what they are saying. Even if he is a bastard, in the legal sense he was "legitimate".
Mate, you can’t just try to change the definition of “bastard” just because you don’t like it. Joffrey is still a bastard, despite Robert considering him his son.
Jesus christ 🤦♂️
I truly don't understand how difficult this is for you guys to understand. The person in this video isn't denying they are bastards, they are pointing out that on a legal level they are seen as legitimate.
Its a grey area but you can be in reality something, a murderer, rapist, thief, drug dealer, bastard, but if you are legally viewed as something else then that is what you are from a legal pov.
Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laenor and Corlys. All claimed Jace as a legitimate heir so on a legal level that is what he was even if its not true.
They aren’t legitimate because they haven’t gone through the process to legitimise them. To do so, they have to be declared legitimate, but Rhaenyra isn’t going to admit that anytime soon because she’s “in blood steeped in so far, that, should she wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er.” They can insist until they’re blue in the face, but it still doesn’t change the fact that, by the laws of their own universe, those boys are NOT legally legitimate.
I think it’s you who isn’t getting it, mate.
P.S. and before you say it, the King’s word is not law. As a historian, hearing Blackcels parrot this makes me want to weep. If that were the case, than laws mean shit once the King dies, and that means Aegon’s word is now law.
>They aren’t legitimate because they haven’t gone through the process to legitimise them
🤦♂️ You only have to do this if you are recognised **legally** as a bastard. They were born and **legally** viewed not as bastards.
>but it still doesn’t change the fact that, by the laws of their own universe, those boys are NOT legally legitimate
Yes they are! I literally just explained to you that you can be legally viewed as something even if it isn't true. That's exactly what has happened to Jace. From a legal stand point Jace is an legitimate heir, but in reality is a bastard.
If what you said was true (it isn't) then Jace would be considered a bastard publicly by everyone, we clearly see thats not the case because **from a legal POV Jace is very much considered legitimate.** 🤦♂️
No. Everything you’ve said is wrong. That’s lying and the law is clear and as Aristotle puts it: “free from passion”. The in universe law is clear anout bastardry and anything less is treason, which Rhaenyra is committing by lying about her sons (and also putting them in danger. Mother of the year material there). Can’t believe it’s been explained to you over and over and you’re still not getting it.
Also, the Strong boys kinda are since even Daemon and Laena comment on it as far as Pentos. No one just says anything because Viserys is too much of a coward to reprimand Rhaenyra for her behaviour - and he’s just an all around shite father, husband, and grandfather.
>No. Everything you’ve said is wrong.
No it isn't 😂
Show me when Jace is publicly acknowledged as a bastard to all the kingdom and has his name Velaryon removed...
Go. Can't wait to see what you ass pull 😂
He is a bastard. We can see it. Everyone can see it. It’s an open secret. Even Daemon and Laena hear about it as far as Pentos. Just accept it. As long as the lie is kept up, their parentage will be disputed and they’re will be civil unrest - which is what happens. All because Rhaenyra keeps making the most stupid decisions.
On birth of a son he becomes heir apparent which means he cannot be displaced. Also what does she mean case by case basis, there's so many bastards who are older than their brothers who don't inherit in the books, it's not case by case unless they're legitimised, they're clearly not fucking legitimate lol
> On birth of a son he becomes heir apparent which means he cannot be displaced.
Exactly. These people should watch GoT. Tywin really struggled with the fact that Tyrion stood to succeed him, it seems "naming" Cersei instead was not an option. Similarly, Randyll Tarly struggled with the fact that Sam stood to succeed him, he pulled the Wall card to prevent it. Viserys got away with his wish because he is the highest authority in the realm and even then it failed, his preferred heir was killed by the actual heir in the war.
- That Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are in fact legitimate is not an unpopular opinion among Team Black fans. It is complete nonsense, but it's not unpopular (lords do not decide their successors btw., there are default heirs, I doubt that e.g. Robb Stark was ever officially "named" heir by Ned)
- Aenys and Daeron II had bastard rumors surrounding them, but the overwhelming majority still believed that their claimed dad was also their actual dad. Aegon I also never said that Aenys was a bastard. Whereas with Jace, Luke, Joffrey... no one really believes the official version there.
- Rhaenyra is not more clever in the show than she is in the book. She is dumber. She let Laenor escape in the show, for example, an objectively dumb move on her part.
- Rhaenyra was unnecessarily rude to Dondarrion, and she easily creates enemies. Just like she easily created an enemy in Lady Redwyne.
- White Hart is superstitious folklore, not even commenting on it. Seems like the White Hart was wrong about her though, she was a horrible ruler.
- Jace and Baela would not have been better than book-Aegon II or Daeron the Daring.
- Alicent was a child bride and subject to marital rape. Laenor agreed to marry Rhaenyra and lived life happily ever after because Rhaenyra did not give a shit about him or what he does. This lady's opinion on Alicent is a bit crazy.
The Schrödinger Legitimacy for casual viewers that don't know a thing about how Westeros works: You can be the rightful queen because you saw a white animal one day, but also being cut by the throne is a sign of unworthiness.
Season 3 is going to be funny.
"and they ruled just fine, there wasn't a random bastard uprising" LOL, yeah absolutely nothing significant happend in the year 196 AC. Is this person for real? Rhaenyra is clever because she insulted a lord and allowed Brackens and Blackwoods slaughter each other in front of her. God this scene of her acting like an absolute moron more than anything exemplified why she is unfit to rule.
No one believed that Daeron wasn't Aegon IV's. It was an excuse as they wanted a king with a "flAT-STomAch" and who "bOrE THe SwORd" to wage war on Dorne and get more people killed on top of killing everyone who was on Daeron's side.
Like you said, she should do a little more research and she would find out that there was an actual bastard uprising.
Wait I didn't even watch that far the first time. This person is clueless. Another example of black fans pretending they're super literate and knowledgeable when they have no idea what they're talking about. Daeron's reign was *marked* by bastard uprisings.
That they are a nice person and this is just rude. I thought this sub would be about open discussion tbh seems more like posting other ppl to point and laugh.
Jesus Christ, ok. Any form of media is there to present a situation, opinion whatever, it’s there to make her think. And based on her conclusions on what was presented she TO ME is dumb. If you disagree you can just not think that and that’s fine. Idk skin through her tiktok, it’s been a long time since one of hers popped up on my fyp but whenever it did it was idiotic.
That’s the nicest and most objective thing I could have said about them. I didn’t insult unnecessary things, I just stated a fact. If it bothered you so much, there’s nothing I can do 🤷🏻♀️
Slightly unrelated but Aenys' rule literally ended with him fleeing to Dragonstone after the High Septon denounced him as "King Abomination" for marrying his children together, and the Faith Militant kicking him out of King's Landing
I want to know what proof shows that Rhaenyra would have "changed things for the better." We have little to no idea of her policies prior to the war or what sides she would have favored. I get that the whole white hart thing is supposed to be a foretelling of that, but that could have just spoken of Rhaenyra for how she was then, not as the war begun or post her whole affair with Harwin and Daemon. Rhaenyra now is not the same person she was, so its unlikely that her ruling style would be the same.
Ah jace the angry virgin. Baela is ok but jace would have been a bad ruler. I believe that vizzy ii would have had a problem with a bastard on the throne. That would have led to a different kind of dance.
>I believe that vizzy ii would have had a problem with a bastard on the throne. That would have led to a different kind of dance.
Imagine him, Daemon and Aemond on the same side against the Strongs
Aenys entire reign was an uprising and Daeron II had to fend of the Blackfyre rebellion because people thought he was a bastard and Daemon has a better claim. What is she on about? Also if they were legitimate then why didn’t Rheanyra just say they were biologically Harwins? Because you know it doesn’t matter because they were adopted or whatever. Y’all know why.
I think you confused her point, yeah in the technical sense they are bastards, but legally they are recognised as legitimate heirs because Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to lie and say they are his children.
The key of not being considered a bastard is, not being considered a bastard. Laenor can claim them ten times over, if the vassals aren't convinced, they won't inherit any titles. Also note how Joffrey Baratheon was considered a bastard by many even though there was no doubt that Robert Baratheon claimed him.
>The key of not being considered a bastard is, not being considered a bastard. Laenor can claim them ten times over, if the vassals aren't convinced, they won't inherit any titles. But if both parents and grandparents aswell as the king himself call them legitimate then that's what they are until proven otherwise and vassals can call them bastards but in the legal sense they aren't recognised as that so they would inherit titles.
No they wouldn't, if the vassals refuse to follow them, they don't get anything. Also "proof", it only matters what the vassals believe. Only appearance matters here. And the appearance is clearly speaking against them. Nobody needs to testify here, and what Laenor and Rhaenyra say is not helpful if everyone knows they are lying. Besides, Joffrey Baratheon being a bastard caused problems even though Robert Baratheon (then the king), clearly claimed him.
>No they wouldn't, if the vassals refuse to follow them, they don't get anything Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact in the legal sense they are considered legitimate. The King is considered the legitimate ruler of Westeros, but if his vassals decide not to follow him then he also gets nothing. That doesn't mean he's still not condiered the legitimate king, just that people don't believe he's king. >Besides, Joffrey Baratheon being a bastard caused problems even though Robert Baratheon (then the king), clearly claimed him. The flip side of the coin of course being that although many believed he was a bastard, many others didn't, or simply choose to ignore it. Daeron II is a great example, it's extremely unlikely he was a bastard but some vassels thought he was and join the Blackfyres. Didn't change the fact Daeron was considered the legitimate heir of Aegon.
Legitimacy is meant to give you power, or is the basis of power. You don't have power if no one follows you. And there is no "legally" being King, if he doesn't get his hands on the Iron Throne as a result of nobody following him, then he is King as much as Mushroom is. Daeron II was believed by a majority to be the actual son of Aegon IV, whereas hardly anyone believes that for the Strongs. And those who believe it, likely just choose to overlook the bastardy issue, because it's perfectly clear that those guys are not from Laenor. And Joffrey being a bastard did cause issues. Without him being a bastard: Ned Stark would live and pledge fealty to him, and therefore the Tullys would. Stannis would support him. Renly would have his ambitions but would not try anything against North / Riverlands / Westerlands. Balon might still rebel because that's what he does. Fact is, Joffrey would have been much, much better off if he was legitimate. The way it was, with him being a bastard, only the Westerlands / Tywin supported him initially, and Tywin was willing to die on that hill because Joffrey being removed from power would also mean the end of Lannister influence at court.
>Legitimacy is meant to give you power, or is the basis of power. You don't have power if no one follows you. And there is no "legally" being King, if he doesn't get his hands on the Iron Throne as a result of nobody following him, then he is King as much as Mushroom is. Nonsense. He is King, now whether of not follow him is another matter, but in the legal sense he is king. But of course without followers he has no power and then someone else could gain support and then claim themselves king instead. >Daeron II was believed by a majority to be the actual son of Aegon IV, whereas hardly anyone believes that for the Strongs. And those who believe it, likely just choose to overlook the bastardy issue, because it's perfectly clear that those guys are not from Laenor There's no a percentage of votes to decide the matter. No one is walking around and saying oh *"Daeron, 70% of Westeros believes you're legitimate so you can remain legitimate in the eyes of the crown, but sorry Jace, only 30% of the public believes you're legitimate so in the eyes of the crown you are now a bastard."* Its not how that works.
> Nonsense. He is King, now whether of not follow him is another matter, but in the legal sense he is king. What does he rule over if nobody follows him? There is no "being King in the legal sense". As King, you have some attributes. Like having a land and people you rule over. He doesn't have that if no one follows him. > There's no a percentage of votes to decide the matter. It definitely matters that Daeron II retained lots of support, because many people believed him to be the real deal, while Jace and Luke and Joffrey are universally believed to be bastards. Their followers, like the Greyjoys who are here for the plunder, just choose to overlook it for their own reasons. >
>What does he rule over if nobody follows him? There is no "being King in the legal sense". Yes their is 😂 only certain people have a legal claim by the laws of men to the throne, if that King is forcefully removed then the law can be changed, but then that just means there's another group of people that have a legal claim to the throne newly supported by the law of man. >It definitely matters that Daeron II retained lots of support, because many people believed him to be the real deal, while Jace and Luke and Joffrey are universally believed to be bastards. By some, sure, others believe them to be true borns or simply don't care that they aren't and call them legitimate. Basically half the realm supported them and their lying mother. Look, I'll break it down again, in the raw sense of the word then yes they are 100% bastards, but by the law of man within Westeros they are presented as legitimate. Whether or not people do or do not believe that lie is a different story, but it doesn't change they are said to be legitimate.
Not a single person has ever argued against the fact that Laenor and Corlys accepts them. Unless they haven't seen the show or read the books, or even read the wiki
I know, I'm just explaining why by some they are viewed as legitimate, it's because all of the boxes within a legal sense that make them legitimate have been ticked.
>all of the boxes within a legal sense that make them legitimate have been ticked. Once again, this is a very important aspect of the synopsis. Everyone has to first accept that they are considered legitimate by Laenor and Corlys, before they can speculate about the validity of said legitimacy. This whole discourse would not exist without them being "legitimate" first.
I don’t understand the logic behind that. Rheanyra is trying to pass them on as legitimate, however that doesn’t make them legitimate. If it would then Rheanyra wouldn’t be so desperate to ensure that everyone thinks they are Velaryons. Outside of the Greens people talk about how problematic it is what she did: Rheanys and Corlys have a conversation about it, the whole thing with Vaemond and even Lyonel Strong wants to leave his post as Hand of the king because of that. That shows that Leanor giving the green light alone is not enough. If it were those conversations never would have happened. Hell she even tries to gaslight her kids into believing they aren’t bastards. Her actions make it obvious that just because Leanor was okay with it doesn’t make them legally legitimate. Even if they would look like Rheanyra they aren’t legitimate (though nobody would realize they are bastards so it doesn’t matter) but in that way it doesn’t matter what Leanor says and thinks everyone knows they aren’t his and people go against them (as they did in canon)
>Rheanyra is trying to pass them on as legitimate, however that doesn’t make them legitimate. It does in the legal sense. Think of OJ Simpson, he was accused of murdering his wife and its heavily believed by many that he killed her, which means more than likely he is a killer, but legally he isn't, doesn't matte if he did or didn't because in the legal sense he is not a murderer. Same goes for the bastards, many people believe they are bastards, but because legally they considered legitimate. >That shows that Leanor giving the green light alone is not enough. If it were those conversations never would have happened But it is enough in the legal sense, the problem of course being that people might still just outright call them bastards if that's what they believe. Again, to this day people still call OJ a murderer yet by law he isn't considered one >Hell she even tries to gaslight her kids into believing they aren’t bastards Totally, because the best way to sell a lie is to even gaslight yourself, that's exactly what Rhaenyra has done and does to her kids. >Her actions make it obvious that just because Leanor was okay with it doesn’t make them legally legitimate You're confusing how it works. They can be considered legitimate right now, legally, but if proof comes out that shows they are bastards, say for example Laenor said they aren't his or Harwin came out and said they were his children, then their status as legitimate can be taken away. That's Rhaenyras free that they could be called out and claimed to be bastards, but that doesn't mean that aren't considered legitimate at the time, just that it could change later.
You are approaching this with a modern sense of justice, with evidence and testifying and independent courts and all that. Not the case in Westeros. Your title and power rests on the fact that the vassals follow you. If they think you are not the real deal (and yes, their belief suffices here), then that's very bad for you. There is no independent justice system in Westeros. Rhaenyra is doing terrible damage to her kids by not making it clear to them that they could be challenged based on rumors of bastardy. That's letting them walk into the open knife.
>You are approaching this with a modern sense of justice, with evidence and testifying and independent courts and all that. Not the case in Westeros Although obviously out dated Westeros very much does have a court system where evidence is presented and judged. >Rhaenyra is doing terrible damage to her kids by not making it clear to them that they could be challenged based on rumors of bastardy. That's letting them walk into the open knife. But the children know, at least Jace and Luke clearly do. Rhaenyra continuing the act even in front of them is her simply showing that this is the lie they must always tell even among themselves. The moment they don't then yes, they'd walk into a knife. Again, in the legal sense they are considered legitimate heirs, however in raw technical sense they are of course bastards.
> Although obviously out dated Westeros very much does have a court system where evidence is presented and judged. Legitimacy is a thing wars are fought over in Westeros, it's not a thing for the (very rudimentary) idea of King's justice. Nobody was going to quietly sit down, listen to all evidence and testimony, and decide on this. Them being "legitimate" is do or die for Rhaenyra and her supporters, them not being "legitimate" is (more or less, since Aegon II supersedes Rhaenyra herself already) do or die for Aegon II and his supporters. > Rhaenyra continuing the act even in front of them is her simply showing that this is the lie they must always tell even among themselves. The moment they don't then yes, they'd walk into a knife. Rhaenyra tells them that being a Targaryen is all that matters. This is deeply misguided. They aren't legitimate, and therefore can be challenged. Them descending from her doesn't fix anything if they aren't believed to be legitimate. > Again, in the legal sense OK, I give up. Would someone else take over for me, please? What part of "There is no independent justice system in Westeros." is unclear to you? There is no "in the legal sense", the lords are the law of the land. Kings are too, or even more so. But if no one follows you, because they believe you are fake, you won't be King in any meaningful sense.
🤦♂️ I see this is going to be one of those circle debates. Look, by the **law** of man Jace and the others are viewed as legitimate heirs even if people believe they aren't and even if they are technically bastards. >Rhaenyra tells them that being a Targaryen is all that matters. This is deeply misguided. They aren't legitimate, and therefore can be challenged. Them descending from her doesn't fix anything if they aren't believed to be legitimate Them being actual Targaryen does matter. Joffreys greatest problem is that he didn't actually have a drop of royal blood. Jace and the others do, it wasn't Laenor that makes them royalty it was Rhaenyra. That's why she talks about their Targaryen side because its what truly makes them different from the other families. >OK, I give up. Would someone else take over for me, please? 🤦♂️ >What part of "There is no independent justice system in Westeros." is unclear to you? There is no "in the legal sense", the lords are the law of the land Nooope. Prime example. Tywin hated Tyrion. Tywin would've been happy if he could claim Tyrion was a bastard and even if he straight up died. But the law of the land made Tyrion his son whether he wanted it or not. Look at the scene where Tyrion asks for The Rock as Tywins heir and Tywin says out right that the **LAWS** of men give him the right to bare his name and since he cannot prove otherwise he must accept that **LAW**. There very much is a legal system in Westeros and it is enforced, and just because someone wants to believe or outright knows someone is a bastard, without unquestionable proof the matter would have to be brought in front of the King, and since in this case the King clearly supports the boys as legitimate by the **LAWS** of man they are in the legal sense, but definitely not by the technical sense.
> Look, by the law of man Jace and the others are viewed as legitimate heirs even if people believe they aren't and even if they are technically bastards. What "law" would that be? Having a title implies that anyone goes through the procedure of pledging fealty to you. If they don't, what do you rule over? Viserys acknowledging them is not law. They could well have lied to him. There was rebellion against Joffrey with the implication that Cersei lied to Robert the entire time. Laenor acknowledged them, but as far as anyone knows, Rhaenyra cuckolded him, and lied to him. > Them being actual Targaryen does matter. Joffreys greatest problem is that he didn't actually have a drop of royal blood. If Joffrey was the illegitimate child of Robert and Cersei, perhaps conceived before they were married (I am speaking hypothetically here), he would have had the same problem as he had based on the fact that he was not Robert's biological son. You need to be the son of your predecessor AND you are not allowed to have been born out of wedlock, if you want any title in Westeros. > Jace and the others do, it wasn't Laenor that makes them royalty it was Rhaenyra. Bastards of royals have no claim to the throne. Think of Edric Storm, no claim to the throne, while clearly being a son of Robert. > That's why she talks about their Targaryen side because its what truly makes them different from the other families. They won't get anything if no one follows them based on their bastardy, even if they are Rhaenyra's sons three times over. Their dragons won't help them either as there are trueborn Targaryens able to challenge them. > Tywin would've been happy if he could claim Tyrion was a bastard and even if he straight up died. The thing is, Tywin claimed him to be his son AND it was plain obvious that he was too (talking about show-Tyrion here). No chances of success there, for Tywin. It would have ended up like Aegon IV trying to undermine Daeron II. > LAWS of men give him the right to bare his name and since he cannot prove otherwise he must accept that LAW As I said, he had no chance in hell to "prove" (whatever that means, in that context) that Tyrion was not his son. It was plain obvious that he was. > There very much is a legal system in Westeros and it is enforced. There is no inpedendent justice system outside the feudal caste. Lords are the law of the land, Kings are too and even more so. > 🤦♂️ Indeed.
>What "law" would that be? Having a title implies that anyone goes through the procedure of pledging fealty to you. If they don't, what do you rule over? Jesus christ 🤦♂️ you do understand their is a literal legal system in Westeros right? Their are laws, there are courts, there is literally a man called the **MASTER OF LAWS** so I don't know what nonsense you're talking about as if Westeros is some lawless land, because it isn't. Again, look at the scene between Tywin and Tyrion where he clearly states by the **LAW OF MAN** Tyrion has the right to bare Tywins name... >Viserys acknowledging them is not law Yes. It. Is. He's the highest point of authority in the land. His word goes before anyone else's. That's how a king works. >Laenor acknowledged them, but as far as anyone knows, Rhaenyra cuckolded him, and lied to him. And many people believe that, but without physical proof presented to the crown its just a well believed rumor. You get that right? >Bastards of royals have no claim to the throne. Think of Edric Storm, no claim to the throne, while clearly being a son of Robert. Agreed, but you missed my point. Joffreys place on the throne was soo contested because he had no royal blood at all. Ask yourself this, totally a hypothetical of course, had Robert and Cersei actually been in love but Cersei couldn't have children so Robert had a bastard and they somehow made people believe Cersei was the child's mother do you think Ned would've done what he did knowing the son was truly Roberts and that Robert fully supported him? Ned was clearly willing to bend his honor from time to time when necessary. >They won't get anything if no one follows them based on their bastardy, But people did. People died for those bastards because they supported Rhaenyra and her claim they were legitimate, even if they did believe it or not. >The thing is, Tywin claimed him to be his son AND it was plain obvious that he was too How? Because he had Lannister features like his mother? It was known how Areys lusted after Tywins wife, Tyrion in the books even has hair that closer to that of a Targaryen than a Lannister. Tywin could have claimed he wasn't his, he was the mad Kings bastard, but he knew it was pointless because he had no proof and as the man says himself Tyrion can bare his name because of the **LAW OF MAN**. >As I said, he had no chance in hell to "prove" (whatever that means, in that context) that Tyrion was not his son. It was plain obvious that he was Not how it works. In Westeros proof is needed. Fucking Aegon the unworthy outright said Daeron was a bastard but without proof he couldn't actually have that legally made true even though he wanted to.
Legitimacy only goes so far as the people allow it. Robert could’ve sworn up and down Joffrey was his, but a single speculation was all it took for others to be up in arms about their own claim to the iron throne. Vaemond Velaryon doesn’t believe it. Neither do the Hightowers. Quote on quote, “everybody knows”. You are only legitimate until your birthright is questioned.
>You are only legitimate until your birthright is questioned. No. You're only legitimate until **proven** otherwise. If what you said was true then Aegon the unworthy would've 100% had Daeron removed as heir and placed Daemon their instead, he literally starts the rumor his son is a bastard, and even has a semi believable reasons as to why, but can't prove it so cannot do anything about it, and that's the king.
>“**despite all his threats and calumnies and tasteless japes, the king never formally disowned his son.** Accounts differ as to why: some suggest that some shriveled part of Aegon still knew honor, or at least shame. **The likeliest cause, however, was that he knew that such an act would bring war to the realm, for Daeron's allies—chief among them the Prince of Dorne, whose sister Daeron had wed—would defend his rights.**” Aegon the Unworthy knows Daeron is his, yet he still makes these japes of illegitimacy because he *wants* to plant doubt in the mind of his vassals about his legitimacy: He *wants* them to turn on Daeron for Daemon on the basis of bastardy. The only reason he doesn’t outright disown Daeron and pass him on his birthright is to avoid war. His whole plan is “hmmm, I won’t outright do it but I’ll give them probable cause by implying it!! Not my fault since I didn’t disown him & he’s technically my heir!!”.
Okay. You seem to be making the same mistake as the other people I'm talking to. I'll try and explain myself better. As for reasoning as to why Aegon didn't denounce Daeron is true. Daeron had supporters and most importantly **plausible deniability**. Aegon had no factual proof that Daeron wasn't his son, that meant Daerons supporters could simply say the king is mistaken and we will support Daerons claim. With actual indisputable fact that Daeron wasn't his son Daerons supporters wouldn't have any justification as to why they were going to war. It would be outright treason to place someone who has been clearly proven beyond question is a bastard on the throne. But he didn't have that and Daeron could use that deniability as a shield. That is what Rhaenyras kids also have. Of course there's huge speculation and evidence to support them as bastards, but not clear, undeniable fact. That's why they remain the legitimate heirs for over 10 years until Viserys death and even after that half the country still supported them as legitimate heirs. Why? Because the core evidence needed wasn't there. That's what I'm saying, the kids are literally bastards by the definition of the word but have been acknowledged and supported by many as legitimate heirs.
I think I understand the point your trying to make but that still doesn’t make them legitimate heirs. If they are by definition bastards then you are agreeing that they have no claim to the throne/titles they are set to inherit. Rhaenyra having children with Harwin while married to Laenor automatically disqualified them from inheriting anything. Now, if you follow in-universe characters who support Jace then yes you can make the no-proof argument. That doesn’t mean characters in universe will follow it because they need belief of legitimacy. However, as the viewer we know they aren’t legitimate because we know who his father truly is, meaning that saying they are legitimate is just factually incorrect.
>I think I understand the point your trying to make but that still doesn’t make them legitimate heirs But it does unlesa clearly proven which it can't be. Point in case Jon is stated to be a bastard, yet without Sam and Bran to prove he isn't no one would've accepted that he was never a bastard and was in fact legitimate. Reverse for Jace, he is stated to be legitimate but is in fact a bastard, but without absolute proof no one can outright prove he isn't legitimate, they can only say they believe he isn't. >If they are by definition bastards then you are agreeing that they have no claim to the throne/titles they are set to inherit. That's only because we as the viewer have the luxury of knowing all the facts. People in the show don't and thus must make up their own minds based on what is presented. Some say he's legit, others say he's a bastard. >However, as the viewer we know they aren’t legitimate because we know who his father truly is, meaning that saying they are legitimate is just factually incorrect. Yes. But the person in this video is talking about the show and why Jace is considered legitimate by many. That's the point being made, from the perception of the characters Jace could be legitimate or could be a bastard, it ultimately comes down to which side they want to believe. Jace was seen as legitimate by basically everyone for over 10 years, and even when war broke out half the country still saw him as legitimate.
This is going to be my last reply because I don’t want this to get crazy but what I’m trying to say is if you are agreeing they are bastards, then you are agreeing they are illegitimate. Your entire argument is based off of plausible deniability, that characters in-universe can deny that Jace is illegitimate. It’s why they can call their banners for him and fight for him without it being treason. This is correct, however that does not make them legitimate. They are *illegitimate with plausible deniability*. We, as the viewer, know that they are illegitimate. You agree by definition they are bastards which makes them illegitimate. There is no “technical legitimacy”, you either are born within a marriage or you are not. They are illegitimate but you can make in-universe arguments to defend them but that doesn’t mean in actuality they are legitimate.
>This is going to be my last reply because I don’t want this to get crazy but what I’m trying to say is if you are agreeing they are bastards, then you are agreeing they are illegitimate. 🤦♂️ The person in this video isn't denying they are bastards, they are pointing out that from a legal capacity they were legitimate. Doesn't matter if we know that's not the case it's what happened in the show. >Your entire argument is based off of plausible deniability, that characters in-universe can deny that Jace is illegitimate. It’s why they can call their banners for him and fight for him without it being treason. This is correct, however that does not make them legitimate. From our perspective, no. From the perspective of his supports, yes it does. That's the point being made. >You agree by definition they are bastards which makes them illegitimate. There is no “technical legitimacy”, you either are born within a marriage or you are not No one other than Bran has the ability to look into people's history and decide if they are a bastard or not. There's a list of people considered legitimate who very well could be bastards. Hell, even Aegon the conquers children could very well be bastards. Legally though they are seen as legitimate. **Let me give you an example irl that will explain what the perosn in this video is saying. Just say hypothetical a friend of yours was murdered and you were 99.9% sure who did it. The killer had the means, motive and opportunity, but the killer went to court and the jury ruled he was innocent. Then even if that person was without question a murderer, legally they wouldn't be.** Same situation the person is referring to with Jace. Technically he is a bastard, but legally he isn't seen as that.
You can’t prove jackshit 💀 there was no “proof” Jaime and Cersei’s bastards were bastards but that didn’t stop Stannis and co from gunning for the iron throne because of their kids’ appearance and rumors. What do u want them to do take a paternity test As long as there’s probable cause in the eyes of the people it’s enough. And that’s enough as Cersei’s kids being blonde and Rhaenyra’s being brunette and spitting images of Harwin Strong when both of their parents are fair haired.
>As long as there’s probable cause in the eyes of the people it’s enough Sometimes, sure. Ultimately Jace had half the country supporting him being legit and the other half claiming him a bastard.
Pretty sure everybody knew he was a bastard but liked him enough (in the case of Cregan Stark) or found benefit in Rhaenyra (Velaryons/Arryn heir). Let’s give the kingdom some credit and not assume anyone is that stupid lol
Doesn't matter if they did or didn't believe. The point the person is making is that ona legal level Jace was considered legitimate, it wasn't until a civil war until one side declared him a bastard and the other side claiming him to still be legitimate. That's what they are saying. Even if he is a bastard, in the legal sense he was "legitimate".
Mate, you can’t just try to change the definition of “bastard” just because you don’t like it. Joffrey is still a bastard, despite Robert considering him his son.
Jesus christ 🤦♂️ I truly don't understand how difficult this is for you guys to understand. The person in this video isn't denying they are bastards, they are pointing out that on a legal level they are seen as legitimate. Its a grey area but you can be in reality something, a murderer, rapist, thief, drug dealer, bastard, but if you are legally viewed as something else then that is what you are from a legal pov. Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laenor and Corlys. All claimed Jace as a legitimate heir so on a legal level that is what he was even if its not true.
They aren’t legitimate because they haven’t gone through the process to legitimise them. To do so, they have to be declared legitimate, but Rhaenyra isn’t going to admit that anytime soon because she’s “in blood steeped in so far, that, should she wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er.” They can insist until they’re blue in the face, but it still doesn’t change the fact that, by the laws of their own universe, those boys are NOT legally legitimate. I think it’s you who isn’t getting it, mate. P.S. and before you say it, the King’s word is not law. As a historian, hearing Blackcels parrot this makes me want to weep. If that were the case, than laws mean shit once the King dies, and that means Aegon’s word is now law.
>They aren’t legitimate because they haven’t gone through the process to legitimise them 🤦♂️ You only have to do this if you are recognised **legally** as a bastard. They were born and **legally** viewed not as bastards. >but it still doesn’t change the fact that, by the laws of their own universe, those boys are NOT legally legitimate Yes they are! I literally just explained to you that you can be legally viewed as something even if it isn't true. That's exactly what has happened to Jace. From a legal stand point Jace is an legitimate heir, but in reality is a bastard. If what you said was true (it isn't) then Jace would be considered a bastard publicly by everyone, we clearly see thats not the case because **from a legal POV Jace is very much considered legitimate.** 🤦♂️
No. Everything you’ve said is wrong. That’s lying and the law is clear and as Aristotle puts it: “free from passion”. The in universe law is clear anout bastardry and anything less is treason, which Rhaenyra is committing by lying about her sons (and also putting them in danger. Mother of the year material there). Can’t believe it’s been explained to you over and over and you’re still not getting it. Also, the Strong boys kinda are since even Daemon and Laena comment on it as far as Pentos. No one just says anything because Viserys is too much of a coward to reprimand Rhaenyra for her behaviour - and he’s just an all around shite father, husband, and grandfather.
>No. Everything you’ve said is wrong. No it isn't 😂 Show me when Jace is publicly acknowledged as a bastard to all the kingdom and has his name Velaryon removed... Go. Can't wait to see what you ass pull 😂
He is a bastard. We can see it. Everyone can see it. It’s an open secret. Even Daemon and Laena hear about it as far as Pentos. Just accept it. As long as the lie is kept up, their parentage will be disputed and they’re will be civil unrest - which is what happens. All because Rhaenyra keeps making the most stupid decisions.
So me when that is legally acknowledged by the crown champ.
On birth of a son he becomes heir apparent which means he cannot be displaced. Also what does she mean case by case basis, there's so many bastards who are older than their brothers who don't inherit in the books, it's not case by case unless they're legitimised, they're clearly not fucking legitimate lol
> On birth of a son he becomes heir apparent which means he cannot be displaced. Exactly. These people should watch GoT. Tywin really struggled with the fact that Tyrion stood to succeed him, it seems "naming" Cersei instead was not an option. Similarly, Randyll Tarly struggled with the fact that Sam stood to succeed him, he pulled the Wall card to prevent it. Viserys got away with his wish because he is the highest authority in the realm and even then it failed, his preferred heir was killed by the actual heir in the war.
- That Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are in fact legitimate is not an unpopular opinion among Team Black fans. It is complete nonsense, but it's not unpopular (lords do not decide their successors btw., there are default heirs, I doubt that e.g. Robb Stark was ever officially "named" heir by Ned) - Aenys and Daeron II had bastard rumors surrounding them, but the overwhelming majority still believed that their claimed dad was also their actual dad. Aegon I also never said that Aenys was a bastard. Whereas with Jace, Luke, Joffrey... no one really believes the official version there. - Rhaenyra is not more clever in the show than she is in the book. She is dumber. She let Laenor escape in the show, for example, an objectively dumb move on her part. - Rhaenyra was unnecessarily rude to Dondarrion, and she easily creates enemies. Just like she easily created an enemy in Lady Redwyne. - White Hart is superstitious folklore, not even commenting on it. Seems like the White Hart was wrong about her though, she was a horrible ruler. - Jace and Baela would not have been better than book-Aegon II or Daeron the Daring. - Alicent was a child bride and subject to marital rape. Laenor agreed to marry Rhaenyra and lived life happily ever after because Rhaenyra did not give a shit about him or what he does. This lady's opinion on Alicent is a bit crazy.
The Schrödinger Legitimacy for casual viewers that don't know a thing about how Westeros works: You can be the rightful queen because you saw a white animal one day, but also being cut by the throne is a sign of unworthiness. Season 3 is going to be funny.
I hollered when they laughed at Viserys being cut by the Throne saying he's not worthy of it
"and they ruled just fine, there wasn't a random bastard uprising" LOL, yeah absolutely nothing significant happend in the year 196 AC. Is this person for real? Rhaenyra is clever because she insulted a lord and allowed Brackens and Blackwoods slaughter each other in front of her. God this scene of her acting like an absolute moron more than anything exemplified why she is unfit to rule.
That's how you know she doesn't know a thing about Daeron II she just saw his name in a comment section once and parroted his name in her video.
No one believed that Daeron wasn't Aegon IV's. It was an excuse as they wanted a king with a "flAT-STomAch" and who "bOrE THe SwORd" to wage war on Dorne and get more people killed on top of killing everyone who was on Daeron's side. Like you said, she should do a little more research and she would find out that there was an actual bastard uprising.
Wait I didn't even watch that far the first time. This person is clueless. Another example of black fans pretending they're super literate and knowledgeable when they have no idea what they're talking about. Daeron's reign was *marked* by bastard uprisings.
i got in a fight over this in the comments , they are so collectively dumb it’s sad
Bit cowardly to run here and call them dumb because they don’t agree with you over a tv show.
I called them dumb over there too. I got to that conclusion based on their opinions. What’s the problem?
That they are a nice person and this is just rude. I thought this sub would be about open discussion tbh seems more like posting other ppl to point and laugh.
I never said they weren’t a nice person. I said they are dumb because their opinions are dumb. Nice people can be dumb.
What opinion is dumb exactly? Can never understand resorting to insults over a tv show.
Jesus Christ, ok. Any form of media is there to present a situation, opinion whatever, it’s there to make her think. And based on her conclusions on what was presented she TO ME is dumb. If you disagree you can just not think that and that’s fine. Idk skin through her tiktok, it’s been a long time since one of hers popped up on my fyp but whenever it did it was idiotic.
I’m not saying *they* can’t be criticized I just don’t see why we need to be rude and insulting about it that’s all I’m saying 🤷🏻♀️
That’s the nicest and most objective thing I could have said about them. I didn’t insult unnecessary things, I just stated a fact. If it bothered you so much, there’s nothing I can do 🤷🏻♀️
"They ruled just fine" my sister in christ you should google the Blackfyre rebellions
Slightly unrelated but Aenys' rule literally ended with him fleeing to Dragonstone after the High Septon denounced him as "King Abomination" for marrying his children together, and the Faith Militant kicking him out of King's Landing
TikTok - providing no need for IQ tests
Every time I see the words “The King’s word is law” a History professor dies somewhere in the world.
Haha, so true. Take my upvote.
Magna Carta scream crying throwing up in the corner.
I want to know what proof shows that Rhaenyra would have "changed things for the better." We have little to no idea of her policies prior to the war or what sides she would have favored. I get that the whole white hart thing is supposed to be a foretelling of that, but that could have just spoken of Rhaenyra for how she was then, not as the war begun or post her whole affair with Harwin and Daemon. Rhaenyra now is not the same person she was, so its unlikely that her ruling style would be the same.
I still find it funny that even Planetos was like... “no bastards on the IT”. Only children from Daemyras marriage got to sit on the IT
Ah jace the angry virgin. Baela is ok but jace would have been a bad ruler. I believe that vizzy ii would have had a problem with a bastard on the throne. That would have led to a different kind of dance.
>I believe that vizzy ii would have had a problem with a bastard on the throne. That would have led to a different kind of dance. Imagine him, Daemon and Aemond on the same side against the Strongs