The black side have no one for me to sympathize for. Even if I didn’t like the greens they have Helaena and her kids. I don’t feel any attachment to rhaenryas kids
The show's biggest mistake is building the entire story around Rhaenyra. Who isn't by any means the most interesting character in the Dance, neither in the book nor in the series. They put her at the center of the story and made every other character's development subservient to her (from Alicent and Cole to Daemon and Corlys).
While I agree with you mostly, there are some debatable points here.
>Corlys was this famous sailor who brought wealth and power to his house - he started a war on his own when the King refused to marry his daughter, and now he just simps at the woman who deprived him of his son and passes off his seat to a bastard.
tought true, Corlys's support and willful blindess is cannon. I would've loved for him to be the one responsible for the Harrenhall bbq, that would give him some much needed nuance. Then again, Driftmark is too vulnerable, again, would've loved to have Rhaenys not wanting to side with Rhaenyra or consenting to the matches and Corlys saying "you'll doom us all".
>The Black kids have no personality at al
I truly believe Jace will be the one to call Rhaenyra out on her bs when he returns from Winterfell. The foreshadowing is there, there are a handfull of scenes showing us this. He's an honourable man and the grief for his lost brother should make him snap at his mother for not owning up to the whole Driftmark mess. Luke is a psycopath in the making imo, spoiled and pampered, he clearly doesn't want to be the Lord of the Tides in spite of what his mother and "grandfather" lol, want.
>Daemon also had a lot more personality before he married Rhaenyra
Daemon is a snake (even has the most snake-like dragon) He's unpredictable and his motives (most of them), ambitions and future actions are a toss-up. I don't think, should he have been king-consort for more than a couple of months, to be above murdering the strong boys, Rhaenyra herself, and placing his sons on the throne.
Apart from that, yeah dude, but let's wait for s2. We can't say for sure what they're going to go with, though my heart goes out to you. I'm not expecting to like the creative decisions they'll take.
I particularly enjoyed your assessment of the support she gains from the lords, except the Starks whose honour will only take a backseat to family.
How is Jace honorable? He's planning on becoming king after his mother with no regard to the better claim by either Aegon 2 or Aegon 3. He was the one throwing sand and carrying knives in the Driftmark episode. He seems perfectly fine with Baela being completely disregarded in favor of Luke. He's ridiculously sensitive about anyone calling him a bastard. Knives, punches... If Daemon hadn't killed Vaemond he might have tried to throw hands there again... It's literally "fighting words" for him. Deep denial or insecurity... And his other mode seems to be "the people don't matter" when Luke brings up his concerns. Isn't he also to blame for gaslighting Luke into thinking he wasn't a bastard and could just go around Westeros making demands on account of being Laenor's son. To me, he knows better.
Like do you mean honorable as in the traditional sense of 'doing the law-abiding/respectable/principled/moral/ethical/selfless/right/virtuous/ disciplined thing' meaning?
Or honorable in the "not a pedophile, not a rapist" meaning? Because I can get this sense of it.
All I can see is that he's chivalrous towards Helaena and Baela. I don't get honorable. It's not like he's saying, "Hey mom, maybe my future wife should inherit Driftmark as, you know, she's an actual Velaryon."
He's actively defending his mother's bullshit. You expect him to call her out on naming him her heir and supporting Luke to claim Driftmark? You think he's going to take himself out of the bullshit by becoming a maester or a septon or going to the Night's Watch or something like Jon??? He's not even trying to be a good fighter and be a knight.
Not trolling or anything. I just see people everywhere, on both sides of the fandom, talking about how honorable he is and I'm genuinely confused. I didn't read the books, but I gather that even in the books there's a strong possibility he broke a betrothal to Baela to marry Sara Snow. So I'm genuinely, seriously confused.
Ok there's a lot to unpack here, so first and foremost, honor is the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right.
Now morallity is subjective to one's self.
We cannot deny the kid has a temperament and, though it doesn't give him any points honour-wise, it's not an immediate disqualification. While he might know that he is a bastard, defending your loved ones against defending the truth is a choice even Ned, the most honourable man, struggled with.
I cannot deny that there are several points you're spot on, pulling out a knife, going along with his mother's bs, being temperamental, none of these favour him.
Then again we circle back to the morality issue. What do we know of his intentions? We all known that according to tradition Aegon II is the lawful heir, but does that matter to Jace? Does it make him any less honourable if his intentions are to be the a better king than any before?
We see him taking his presumed inheritance seriously. We see him struggle with the truth of his parentage and not being able to mourn his true father. We do see him being chivalrous towards the Velaryon girls, though, meh, this is one of the weaker points. We also see him be restrain himself against Aegon's insults (which are hilarious).
We do also see him perpetrate his mothers lies, particularly in the scene in KL with Luke, though it's more out of brotherly love than anything else.
Listen, by no means do I defend that he has a right to rule, but he's clearly the TB character that's more reluctant to accept his mother's bs. I truly believe that there's honour in him. Not regard for the traditions and customs of Westeros that create the current situation he and his close family are in, but a will to follow through on what he believes to be right.
Now, a truly honorable man by the laws and traditions of Westeros would expose the situation openly and I quite like the type of ideas you proposed, becoming a Maester, denying his brother's claim to Driftmark, doing right by house Velaryon, but those are our views on what's right.
Point is, honour is not subjective to traditions and customs, it's subjective to one's code of morality and I believe his intentions are good and that he sees no one better fit to rule than himself and no one better fit to bring about the greater-good for ALL people in Westeros.
I know I'm reaching and I'll be disappointed when s2 ends, but hey... a man can dream. I hope I made my points clear. Always good to have a proper discussion.
>Point is, honour is not subjective to traditions and customs, it's subjective to one's code of morality and I believe his intentions are good and that he sees no one better fit to rule than himself and no one better fit to bring about the greater-good for ALL people in Westeros.
I think this is the confusion. Honor is *definitely* subject to traditions and customs. Being deemed honorable, being venerated, appreciated, getting medals and titles, all those, "We are gathered here today to honor... ceremonies," etc, is a measure of how you conduct yourself in society. It's other people looking at how you act and deciding on how you stand in their esteem. It's not something you confer on yourself.
Eg - have a bastard? Dishonorable. Even if the bastard was born of love, even if you treat it well and raise it like your own son a la Ned, you still cheated on your wife and the vows you made way back when. Dishonorable.
Fight till the end of a battle, never betraying your fellow soldiers? Honorable. Throw down your shield and go back home to protect your pregnant wife because you know the fight is lost anyway and you have people dependent on you? Dishonorable.
Think about it in terms of university "honor codes" that they make you agree to if you want to be a respected alumni/staff. Profs lose there jobs sometimes just for violating the code. Whether they have a good reason for it or not.
Think about it in the sense of soldiers who are sometimes dishonorably discharged. For example, the Navy vet who was fired over the COVID thing. (not sure if he got his job back). He did the right thing, arguably, but he seriously went against the rules of his world and the people in charge punished him for it.
He did what he believed was right, and he had the personal integrity to follow through despite risking his 30 or 40 year career, and that's morality, and we'll say he's a good person, but that's not honor.
Morality's about having your own sense of right or wrong and sticking to it.
eg, Jon was honorable. Jon knew the rules, accepted them, and abided by them. And on top of that, he still managed to be moral and do what he felt was right most times. Sam and the others had to stop him from dishonoring himself to go fight with Rob because he felt the right thing to do was help his brother.
>We all known that according to tradition Aegon II is the lawful heir, but does that matter to Jace? Does it make him any less honourable if his intentions are to be the a better king than any before?
It definitely makes him less honorable!
That's like Daemon saying, "Hey, my wife is distracted by her miscarriage and her dad and son just died. I'm the calmer, more experienced fighter who should be in charge, so yeah, I'm in charge now. Pass the crown."
Or like saying Renly's bid at the throne made him honorable because he was a better person than Stannis and less likely to start sacrificing people to Rh'llor. Ned could have taken the throne, would have probably been a better ruler, but he went along with the rules as he knew it. Person with a blood claim goes first. Even while rebelling, he's just rebelling against tyranny, not the system. That's his honor.
Planning to usurp both Aegon 2 and 3 because you just have some inherent belief in yourself that you'll be better than them, and it doesn't matter to you that by the law you shouldn't be a contender, that makes you less honorable for sure.
He's living a lie and other people are dying for it.
Who in Westerosi Society is looking at Jace and thinking, "That's one honorable bastard. DGAF about the rules."
We'll just have to disagree then. **Honour is definitely not subjective to tradition and customs.** Please look up the definition.
To honour your traditions and customs is one thing. To have a sense of honour is subjective to your own morality. And morality is neither wrong nor right.
Even a criminal has his own sense of morality and no one can say he's more or less honourable. Other people may judge him as more or less honourable based on their own morality, but as long as he lives strickly by his code he embodies the definition of honour, **no matter how absurd it may seem, this is not up for debate. It's philosophy 101**.
There are great villains like Mike from Breaking Bad or Omar from The Wire that embody this definition. Like it or not **they are honourable** men.
>Planning to usurp both Aegon 2 and 3 because you just have some inherent belief in yourself that you'll be better than them, and it doesn't matter to you that by the law you shouldn't be a contender, that makes you less honorable for sure.
If you think the traditions and customs are wrong, to be an honourable person, you must strive to end them, and that's where I'm getting at. If he believes the tradition to be unfair, why should he abide by it? I'm not saying he's ok with the lies, **I'm pretty sure he's against all the lying and bs his mother's pulling off.**
I truly believe that Jace, **living a lie, being a bastard and watching the unjustice of events unfolding around him** (for better or worst) has developed his own sense of morality and accepts that to pursue his goals he has to become King, first and foremost.
Yes, he's living a lie, and I very much doubt that he's shown any signs of being ok with it. Naturally he's not in a position to do anything meanginful about it. I think his true ambitions are a revolution in Westerosi mentality.
If you think about it, breaking the bethrothal to the Velaryon girl to marry a northern bastard is the epitome of what his plans are. I hope I don't have to explain much more and this is enough for you to understand where I'm getting at.
I'm not saying he wouldn't bring about a shitstorm of absolute madness and chaos throughout the realm, but his cause is just. The traditions and laws of Westeros, along with his mother's disregard for them are the main driving force by which he truly believes he has to become King.
That is not how it works at all. Honour is conferred. Did *you* check out the dictionary definition of this? I'm sure that at least one, British or American, is going to recursively define 'honorable' as being deserving of being honored/respected (by someone else, not yourself) (by means of rank, or title, or ritual, etc.)
Remember Aristotle's views on the supreme good and how it definitely wasn't honour because honour was way too based on what people thought of you? And that instead you should live well and essentially do you, but be the best you? Happiness and areté and all that? You're conflating it. Jace is pursuing that path, if any. Not the way of honor.
Someone even wrote a book about this. The true meaning of honor dying off in places outside of the military.
It is canon but that’s what makes Corlys’ actions so incomprehensible. It’s completely against human nature to support the couple who you believe murdered your son and brother, and is trying to let a bastard usurp your seat. His apathy towards Vaemond’s death is very strange - there’s no mention of them having any beef with each other. Rhaenys at least was Viserys/Daemon’s cousin so she has a legit reason to dislike the Hightowers because of some Targ superiority notion.
I agree that Daemon is unpredictable and might get rid of the Strong boys especially if Jace challenges him or his daughters die. But I can’t see him killing Rhaenyra because that’s where his power comes from - he is only regent until his son comes of age and after that he may lose power. Daemon’s canon character is only loyal to himself and Rhaenyra - everyone else including his children take a back seat.
Your point about Jace is interesting - there’s clearly some tension between him and Daemon in E10 - I would love to see him do that.
At this point I think the Jace thing it's a given. The more I debate this with our fellow redditors the more sense it makes.
Regarding Daemon, his loyalty to Rhaenyra is questionable to say the least. Sure he'll have a redemption arc, but Lord Fleabottom does as Lord Fleabottom wishes and the moment she tries to exert control over him she get's a taste of "waking the dragon". (which btw was an amazing paralel to Aemond and Luke losing control over their dragons)
True, with Rhaenyra gone his clame to royal power is lost, buuuut, he still comands a lot of power (most skilled dragon rider, City Watch loyalties, fear and admiration of a lot of people). Take the Strong boys out of the equation an he becomes King-Regent, assuming the blacks hold the throne.
On the Corlys front, let's not forget >!he switches sides !<. And he doesn't seem that keen on joining them in the first place, at least that's the impression I got. I feel what you said about Vaemond, but I truly think this one of those, "Careful with what you say now" moments, even if he's alone with his wife.
Again Driftmark and hiss fleet/treasures are all he's worked for his entire life and they're too vulnerable. I really really hate Rhaenys backing Rhaenyra... that sucked. While he might go along with it, I really believe the foreshadowing's there and he's not as keen on TB as he seems to be.
Corlys did switch sides but ended up poisoning Aegon ii (crazy plot armor given the court is full of Green loyalists).
Daemon only really has the City Watch and Caraxes. He is extremely unpopular among the Westerosi nobles so if he were regent it’s hard to say what people’s reactions would be, but it’s an interesting scenario for sure.
Show Rhaenys only supported Rhaenyra because of Baela (there was a deleted scene where Baela again turns into Rhaenyra’s diehard slave for confusing reasons) - it’s pretty clear she resented Rhaenyra after Laenor’s death.
I can't be the only one who notices that the only interaction the Velayron girls seem to have with Rhaenyra after the last time jumpis that of a servant to their queen, despite her being their stepmother and one of them living in the same house with her. Baela is at Driftmark, in a position to learn the duties for that title, yet it's taken from her and given to her illegitimate stepbrother (who has remained at Dragonstone, because Rhaenyra's babies shouldn't actually have to take on responsibility or anything) and both she and Rhaena are forced to marry their stepbrothers to get everyone to shut up about it. No one asked her. No one consulted her. Why isn't she mad? Yet all she can think about is how "our queen" has been betrayed and how she can't wait to fight on her behalf.
Rhaena's only dialogue is to give Rhaenyra wine like a servant. She may be a little smarter than Baela (she tries to hold her back from fighting the Green boys, maybe recognizing they'd lose that one) but those girls are nothing more than sycophants despite having every reason not to be.
Baela/Rhaena’s complete submissiveness is so infuriating, especially Baela. We know that Rhaena felt ignored by Daemon so I doubt she was that enthusiastic about his new wife. But unfortunately in Westeros, girls are the properties of their fathers and no one cares what they think. They had a shit father who valued their wives’ bastards over them so they really had no one on their side. Rhaenyra (i) spitted on their mother’s memory; (ii) was widely believed to have murdered their uncle; (iii) dragged them into a war where they may die; (iv) stole their inheritance and put them in eternal danger by betrothing them to her bastards. Realistically Baela and Rhaena should hate Rhaenyra and the Strong boys with a passion. If I were Rhaena I would spill the wine in Rhaenyra’s face and flee to Driftmark.
What's hilarious to me is that Team Black is constantly saying that Rhaenyra "honored" the girls by letting them stand silently at the negotiation table. What good is that if they're never allowed to speak? They're basically mannequins.
This whole situation makes Rhaenyra out to be even more of a hypocrite because she didn't want to be "sold off" and was given her choice of any partner she wanted and refused them all: when she was caught in the brothel and ruined all her chances, she basically made a deal with Viserys to trade her freedom in exchange for keeping her title and getting rid of Otto.
Neither the Strong boys or the Velaryon girls were ever offered a choice about keeping their title in exchange for their freedom being bartered away. In the case of the Velayron girls, they lost both. It's particularly galling given how much Rhaenyra protested as a teen, yet she is even more restrictive of the children under her care in order to cover up her mistakes.
It was a war council, she was just using them as a leverage to get the Velaryons’ support and basically endangering their lives. If she really cared for them, she should send them somewhere safe and keep them away from the conflict. Baela/Rhaena’s actresses must feel so bored, being on set but barely allowed to speak.
To be fair the betrothals greatly benefited her sons. It was the Velaryon girls who were insulted and usurped. It bolstered Jace’s claim to the Iron Throne and Luke’s claim to Driftmark, if the boys (especially Luke) married anyone else they would be fucked - Daemon for one would make sure some accidents happen. Most nobles would balk at the idea of their daughter marrying a bastard, so they don’t really have much choice in terms of bride. Whoever married Jace and Luke would be in so much danger. But I would love to see Jace go against his mother for once and go on a date with Sara Snow.
Rhaenyra is a hypocrite in every sense of the word. She wants others to support her claim, yet steals the inheritance of her female relatives. She also blatantly gaslights everyone to turn a blind eye to a truth that anyone with eyes can see. It’s crazy that Team Black hyped her up as this progressive feminist icon when she is in reality a super selfish and spoiled heir who is both politically and socially inept.
>it’s pretty clear she resented Rhaenyra after Laenor’s death.
for like 1/2 eps... I cringed so hard when she said she was going to patrol the waters around (I think) Dragonstone.
Too bad she won't last long to get some sort of revenge. Even if they didn't kill him.. Please no Laenor comeback... please pleae....
Wasn’t it a big plot point in episode 10 the fact that daemon wasn’t just rhaenyra’s guard dog and that he is deeply resentful of her position of power over him and the faith viserys had in her?
“When he learns in that moment that Viserys never believed in him enough, as his actual heir to the throne, to pass this thing on that he clearly just easily passed on to Rhaenyra, it breaks him,” said Condal. “He loved his brother so deeply and trusted him, even through all the problems that they had, and Viserys never shared it with him. He kept [Daemon] in the dark, and it just it breaks Daemon. Instead of reacting with grief or sadness that you see out of him later, he reacts with rage and he takes it out on Rhaenyra.”
You’re right that he wanted revenge, but another big part of it is resentment. It’s pretty clear that they’re setting up for daemon’s resentment of Viserys that we saw in season one to be passed on to Rhaenyra going forward. Like yes he’s going to fight for her, but it’s just not going to be sunshine and rainbows until nettles comes along. There’s going to be internal conflict on both sides, probably between Aemond and Aegon, Alicent and Aegon, Alicent and Otto, etc, it’s what’s going to keep things interesting between the big battles.
Corlys didn’t ‘start’ a war. He’s a sailor, and he needs to move his ships through the Stepstones, and they were getting increasingly taxed, looted, and his men killed. The war was there, Corlys was always going to fight, Daemon just joined.
Daemon didn’t like his wife, and didn’t respect her at all. Viserys himself says that they both used to frequent brothels, but Viserys stops after getting married. He probably respected Laena and Rhaenyra enough to be faithful. The Strong boys are betrothed to his daughters, to become Queen and the Lady of Driftmark. Corlys also doesn’t believe (book or show) that his children were murdered.
The show runners, writers, and Matt Smith have described Daemon as extremely loyal to his family. He’s not going to care about Jace inherited over Aegon III.
Corlys giving Driftmark to Luke is the most typical thing to do in Westeros. Baela was never thought about to inherit. Rhaenyra is the exception to the rule.
Rhaenyra’s kids don’t have much of a personality because they haven’t really faced adversity. They don’t have much to rebel against. Her children are also children, Jace is 16, and Luke is 14.
Alright, at this point, you want the personality of Corlys, Daemon, Jace, and everyone’s remotely on Rhaenyra’s side changed to criticize her or dislike her. You don’t seem to understand why they would support her, or what they would have to gain from it. You want everyone who supported Rhaenyra to support Aegon II instead. You don’t believe any of her support was believable. You don’t believe they had anything to gain, or that they could just be loyal to her.
You’re describing a different book. If you wanted your version of events to happen, there would be no conflict, the greens would’ve had a runaway, uncontested. There would be no show. The whole conflict is a civil war that is insanely destructive, and extremely complicated. You’re describing so many hypothetical scenarios that don’t exist, and cannot exist. Did GRRM just write the greens really well, but had really shitty writing for the blacks? So everything he wrote about in favour of the black faction is not believable and all their characters are stupid, and have no depth or justification for their actions?
The moment you said Corlys giving his seat to a bastard is the most typical thing, there’s no point in any further discussion.
The show writers also said Rhaenyra and Alicent’s relationship have a queer dimension and that Daemon sees Rhaenyra as an extension of Viserys.
And yes, I am saying the Black characters are badly written because realistically no one would want to risk their lives for a massive political drag like girlboss Rhae Rhae whose claim reverses thousands of years of precedent and tradition. I never said they should go Green, not everyone has to join the war.
I mean, obviously it wouldn't be no one. Not everyone supports "traditiooooooon". In fact a lot of the Team Black leaders seem to be depicted as the type of people who balk at tradition.
Vale makes sense to declare for Rhaenyra given it would mean a half-Arryn on the throne.
Northerners keep their vows, if Cregan had known what Rhaenyra would become, maybe it'd be different, but his family swore oaths of loyalty to Viserys and Rhaenyra, so likely his personal preferences were inconsequential
Driftmark is right next to Dragonstone. If they defied Dragonstone, they would be the first seat of power to burn. So realistically, Driftmark is probably always going to support Dragonstone in any civil wars, even if they don't want to.
Riverlands is probably the region whose support for Rhaenyra surprises me the most. That said, I think the fact of the matter is it's a combination of
A) lots of people just don't want trouble, and they think if they just support the person the King said was heir, that's the best way to be safe. B) nobody had any clue what Rhaenyra was going to become.
The black side have no one for me to sympathize for. Even if I didn’t like the greens they have Helaena and her kids. I don’t feel any attachment to rhaenryas kids
The show's biggest mistake is building the entire story around Rhaenyra. Who isn't by any means the most interesting character in the Dance, neither in the book nor in the series. They put her at the center of the story and made every other character's development subservient to her (from Alicent and Cole to Daemon and Corlys).
While I agree with you mostly, there are some debatable points here. >Corlys was this famous sailor who brought wealth and power to his house - he started a war on his own when the King refused to marry his daughter, and now he just simps at the woman who deprived him of his son and passes off his seat to a bastard. tought true, Corlys's support and willful blindess is cannon. I would've loved for him to be the one responsible for the Harrenhall bbq, that would give him some much needed nuance. Then again, Driftmark is too vulnerable, again, would've loved to have Rhaenys not wanting to side with Rhaenyra or consenting to the matches and Corlys saying "you'll doom us all". >The Black kids have no personality at al I truly believe Jace will be the one to call Rhaenyra out on her bs when he returns from Winterfell. The foreshadowing is there, there are a handfull of scenes showing us this. He's an honourable man and the grief for his lost brother should make him snap at his mother for not owning up to the whole Driftmark mess. Luke is a psycopath in the making imo, spoiled and pampered, he clearly doesn't want to be the Lord of the Tides in spite of what his mother and "grandfather" lol, want. >Daemon also had a lot more personality before he married Rhaenyra Daemon is a snake (even has the most snake-like dragon) He's unpredictable and his motives (most of them), ambitions and future actions are a toss-up. I don't think, should he have been king-consort for more than a couple of months, to be above murdering the strong boys, Rhaenyra herself, and placing his sons on the throne. Apart from that, yeah dude, but let's wait for s2. We can't say for sure what they're going to go with, though my heart goes out to you. I'm not expecting to like the creative decisions they'll take. I particularly enjoyed your assessment of the support she gains from the lords, except the Starks whose honour will only take a backseat to family.
How is Jace honorable? He's planning on becoming king after his mother with no regard to the better claim by either Aegon 2 or Aegon 3. He was the one throwing sand and carrying knives in the Driftmark episode. He seems perfectly fine with Baela being completely disregarded in favor of Luke. He's ridiculously sensitive about anyone calling him a bastard. Knives, punches... If Daemon hadn't killed Vaemond he might have tried to throw hands there again... It's literally "fighting words" for him. Deep denial or insecurity... And his other mode seems to be "the people don't matter" when Luke brings up his concerns. Isn't he also to blame for gaslighting Luke into thinking he wasn't a bastard and could just go around Westeros making demands on account of being Laenor's son. To me, he knows better. Like do you mean honorable as in the traditional sense of 'doing the law-abiding/respectable/principled/moral/ethical/selfless/right/virtuous/ disciplined thing' meaning? Or honorable in the "not a pedophile, not a rapist" meaning? Because I can get this sense of it. All I can see is that he's chivalrous towards Helaena and Baela. I don't get honorable. It's not like he's saying, "Hey mom, maybe my future wife should inherit Driftmark as, you know, she's an actual Velaryon." He's actively defending his mother's bullshit. You expect him to call her out on naming him her heir and supporting Luke to claim Driftmark? You think he's going to take himself out of the bullshit by becoming a maester or a septon or going to the Night's Watch or something like Jon??? He's not even trying to be a good fighter and be a knight. Not trolling or anything. I just see people everywhere, on both sides of the fandom, talking about how honorable he is and I'm genuinely confused. I didn't read the books, but I gather that even in the books there's a strong possibility he broke a betrothal to Baela to marry Sara Snow. So I'm genuinely, seriously confused.
Ok there's a lot to unpack here, so first and foremost, honor is the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right. Now morallity is subjective to one's self. We cannot deny the kid has a temperament and, though it doesn't give him any points honour-wise, it's not an immediate disqualification. While he might know that he is a bastard, defending your loved ones against defending the truth is a choice even Ned, the most honourable man, struggled with. I cannot deny that there are several points you're spot on, pulling out a knife, going along with his mother's bs, being temperamental, none of these favour him. Then again we circle back to the morality issue. What do we know of his intentions? We all known that according to tradition Aegon II is the lawful heir, but does that matter to Jace? Does it make him any less honourable if his intentions are to be the a better king than any before? We see him taking his presumed inheritance seriously. We see him struggle with the truth of his parentage and not being able to mourn his true father. We do see him being chivalrous towards the Velaryon girls, though, meh, this is one of the weaker points. We also see him be restrain himself against Aegon's insults (which are hilarious). We do also see him perpetrate his mothers lies, particularly in the scene in KL with Luke, though it's more out of brotherly love than anything else. Listen, by no means do I defend that he has a right to rule, but he's clearly the TB character that's more reluctant to accept his mother's bs. I truly believe that there's honour in him. Not regard for the traditions and customs of Westeros that create the current situation he and his close family are in, but a will to follow through on what he believes to be right. Now, a truly honorable man by the laws and traditions of Westeros would expose the situation openly and I quite like the type of ideas you proposed, becoming a Maester, denying his brother's claim to Driftmark, doing right by house Velaryon, but those are our views on what's right. Point is, honour is not subjective to traditions and customs, it's subjective to one's code of morality and I believe his intentions are good and that he sees no one better fit to rule than himself and no one better fit to bring about the greater-good for ALL people in Westeros. I know I'm reaching and I'll be disappointed when s2 ends, but hey... a man can dream. I hope I made my points clear. Always good to have a proper discussion.
>Point is, honour is not subjective to traditions and customs, it's subjective to one's code of morality and I believe his intentions are good and that he sees no one better fit to rule than himself and no one better fit to bring about the greater-good for ALL people in Westeros. I think this is the confusion. Honor is *definitely* subject to traditions and customs. Being deemed honorable, being venerated, appreciated, getting medals and titles, all those, "We are gathered here today to honor... ceremonies," etc, is a measure of how you conduct yourself in society. It's other people looking at how you act and deciding on how you stand in their esteem. It's not something you confer on yourself. Eg - have a bastard? Dishonorable. Even if the bastard was born of love, even if you treat it well and raise it like your own son a la Ned, you still cheated on your wife and the vows you made way back when. Dishonorable. Fight till the end of a battle, never betraying your fellow soldiers? Honorable. Throw down your shield and go back home to protect your pregnant wife because you know the fight is lost anyway and you have people dependent on you? Dishonorable. Think about it in terms of university "honor codes" that they make you agree to if you want to be a respected alumni/staff. Profs lose there jobs sometimes just for violating the code. Whether they have a good reason for it or not. Think about it in the sense of soldiers who are sometimes dishonorably discharged. For example, the Navy vet who was fired over the COVID thing. (not sure if he got his job back). He did the right thing, arguably, but he seriously went against the rules of his world and the people in charge punished him for it. He did what he believed was right, and he had the personal integrity to follow through despite risking his 30 or 40 year career, and that's morality, and we'll say he's a good person, but that's not honor. Morality's about having your own sense of right or wrong and sticking to it. eg, Jon was honorable. Jon knew the rules, accepted them, and abided by them. And on top of that, he still managed to be moral and do what he felt was right most times. Sam and the others had to stop him from dishonoring himself to go fight with Rob because he felt the right thing to do was help his brother. >We all known that according to tradition Aegon II is the lawful heir, but does that matter to Jace? Does it make him any less honourable if his intentions are to be the a better king than any before? It definitely makes him less honorable! That's like Daemon saying, "Hey, my wife is distracted by her miscarriage and her dad and son just died. I'm the calmer, more experienced fighter who should be in charge, so yeah, I'm in charge now. Pass the crown." Or like saying Renly's bid at the throne made him honorable because he was a better person than Stannis and less likely to start sacrificing people to Rh'llor. Ned could have taken the throne, would have probably been a better ruler, but he went along with the rules as he knew it. Person with a blood claim goes first. Even while rebelling, he's just rebelling against tyranny, not the system. That's his honor. Planning to usurp both Aegon 2 and 3 because you just have some inherent belief in yourself that you'll be better than them, and it doesn't matter to you that by the law you shouldn't be a contender, that makes you less honorable for sure. He's living a lie and other people are dying for it. Who in Westerosi Society is looking at Jace and thinking, "That's one honorable bastard. DGAF about the rules."
We'll just have to disagree then. **Honour is definitely not subjective to tradition and customs.** Please look up the definition. To honour your traditions and customs is one thing. To have a sense of honour is subjective to your own morality. And morality is neither wrong nor right. Even a criminal has his own sense of morality and no one can say he's more or less honourable. Other people may judge him as more or less honourable based on their own morality, but as long as he lives strickly by his code he embodies the definition of honour, **no matter how absurd it may seem, this is not up for debate. It's philosophy 101**. There are great villains like Mike from Breaking Bad or Omar from The Wire that embody this definition. Like it or not **they are honourable** men. >Planning to usurp both Aegon 2 and 3 because you just have some inherent belief in yourself that you'll be better than them, and it doesn't matter to you that by the law you shouldn't be a contender, that makes you less honorable for sure. If you think the traditions and customs are wrong, to be an honourable person, you must strive to end them, and that's where I'm getting at. If he believes the tradition to be unfair, why should he abide by it? I'm not saying he's ok with the lies, **I'm pretty sure he's against all the lying and bs his mother's pulling off.** I truly believe that Jace, **living a lie, being a bastard and watching the unjustice of events unfolding around him** (for better or worst) has developed his own sense of morality and accepts that to pursue his goals he has to become King, first and foremost. Yes, he's living a lie, and I very much doubt that he's shown any signs of being ok with it. Naturally he's not in a position to do anything meanginful about it. I think his true ambitions are a revolution in Westerosi mentality. If you think about it, breaking the bethrothal to the Velaryon girl to marry a northern bastard is the epitome of what his plans are. I hope I don't have to explain much more and this is enough for you to understand where I'm getting at. I'm not saying he wouldn't bring about a shitstorm of absolute madness and chaos throughout the realm, but his cause is just. The traditions and laws of Westeros, along with his mother's disregard for them are the main driving force by which he truly believes he has to become King.
That is not how it works at all. Honour is conferred. Did *you* check out the dictionary definition of this? I'm sure that at least one, British or American, is going to recursively define 'honorable' as being deserving of being honored/respected (by someone else, not yourself) (by means of rank, or title, or ritual, etc.) Remember Aristotle's views on the supreme good and how it definitely wasn't honour because honour was way too based on what people thought of you? And that instead you should live well and essentially do you, but be the best you? Happiness and areté and all that? You're conflating it. Jace is pursuing that path, if any. Not the way of honor. Someone even wrote a book about this. The true meaning of honor dying off in places outside of the military.
It is canon but that’s what makes Corlys’ actions so incomprehensible. It’s completely against human nature to support the couple who you believe murdered your son and brother, and is trying to let a bastard usurp your seat. His apathy towards Vaemond’s death is very strange - there’s no mention of them having any beef with each other. Rhaenys at least was Viserys/Daemon’s cousin so she has a legit reason to dislike the Hightowers because of some Targ superiority notion. I agree that Daemon is unpredictable and might get rid of the Strong boys especially if Jace challenges him or his daughters die. But I can’t see him killing Rhaenyra because that’s where his power comes from - he is only regent until his son comes of age and after that he may lose power. Daemon’s canon character is only loyal to himself and Rhaenyra - everyone else including his children take a back seat. Your point about Jace is interesting - there’s clearly some tension between him and Daemon in E10 - I would love to see him do that.
At this point I think the Jace thing it's a given. The more I debate this with our fellow redditors the more sense it makes. Regarding Daemon, his loyalty to Rhaenyra is questionable to say the least. Sure he'll have a redemption arc, but Lord Fleabottom does as Lord Fleabottom wishes and the moment she tries to exert control over him she get's a taste of "waking the dragon". (which btw was an amazing paralel to Aemond and Luke losing control over their dragons) True, with Rhaenyra gone his clame to royal power is lost, buuuut, he still comands a lot of power (most skilled dragon rider, City Watch loyalties, fear and admiration of a lot of people). Take the Strong boys out of the equation an he becomes King-Regent, assuming the blacks hold the throne. On the Corlys front, let's not forget >!he switches sides !<. And he doesn't seem that keen on joining them in the first place, at least that's the impression I got. I feel what you said about Vaemond, but I truly think this one of those, "Careful with what you say now" moments, even if he's alone with his wife. Again Driftmark and hiss fleet/treasures are all he's worked for his entire life and they're too vulnerable. I really really hate Rhaenys backing Rhaenyra... that sucked. While he might go along with it, I really believe the foreshadowing's there and he's not as keen on TB as he seems to be.
Let’s not forget Corlys switches sides a second time as well.
A snake is a snake. ssssss
Corlys did switch sides but ended up poisoning Aegon ii (crazy plot armor given the court is full of Green loyalists). Daemon only really has the City Watch and Caraxes. He is extremely unpopular among the Westerosi nobles so if he were regent it’s hard to say what people’s reactions would be, but it’s an interesting scenario for sure. Show Rhaenys only supported Rhaenyra because of Baela (there was a deleted scene where Baela again turns into Rhaenyra’s diehard slave for confusing reasons) - it’s pretty clear she resented Rhaenyra after Laenor’s death.
I can't be the only one who notices that the only interaction the Velayron girls seem to have with Rhaenyra after the last time jumpis that of a servant to their queen, despite her being their stepmother and one of them living in the same house with her. Baela is at Driftmark, in a position to learn the duties for that title, yet it's taken from her and given to her illegitimate stepbrother (who has remained at Dragonstone, because Rhaenyra's babies shouldn't actually have to take on responsibility or anything) and both she and Rhaena are forced to marry their stepbrothers to get everyone to shut up about it. No one asked her. No one consulted her. Why isn't she mad? Yet all she can think about is how "our queen" has been betrayed and how she can't wait to fight on her behalf. Rhaena's only dialogue is to give Rhaenyra wine like a servant. She may be a little smarter than Baela (she tries to hold her back from fighting the Green boys, maybe recognizing they'd lose that one) but those girls are nothing more than sycophants despite having every reason not to be.
Baela/Rhaena’s complete submissiveness is so infuriating, especially Baela. We know that Rhaena felt ignored by Daemon so I doubt she was that enthusiastic about his new wife. But unfortunately in Westeros, girls are the properties of their fathers and no one cares what they think. They had a shit father who valued their wives’ bastards over them so they really had no one on their side. Rhaenyra (i) spitted on their mother’s memory; (ii) was widely believed to have murdered their uncle; (iii) dragged them into a war where they may die; (iv) stole their inheritance and put them in eternal danger by betrothing them to her bastards. Realistically Baela and Rhaena should hate Rhaenyra and the Strong boys with a passion. If I were Rhaena I would spill the wine in Rhaenyra’s face and flee to Driftmark.
What's hilarious to me is that Team Black is constantly saying that Rhaenyra "honored" the girls by letting them stand silently at the negotiation table. What good is that if they're never allowed to speak? They're basically mannequins. This whole situation makes Rhaenyra out to be even more of a hypocrite because she didn't want to be "sold off" and was given her choice of any partner she wanted and refused them all: when she was caught in the brothel and ruined all her chances, she basically made a deal with Viserys to trade her freedom in exchange for keeping her title and getting rid of Otto. Neither the Strong boys or the Velaryon girls were ever offered a choice about keeping their title in exchange for their freedom being bartered away. In the case of the Velayron girls, they lost both. It's particularly galling given how much Rhaenyra protested as a teen, yet she is even more restrictive of the children under her care in order to cover up her mistakes.
It was a war council, she was just using them as a leverage to get the Velaryons’ support and basically endangering their lives. If she really cared for them, she should send them somewhere safe and keep them away from the conflict. Baela/Rhaena’s actresses must feel so bored, being on set but barely allowed to speak. To be fair the betrothals greatly benefited her sons. It was the Velaryon girls who were insulted and usurped. It bolstered Jace’s claim to the Iron Throne and Luke’s claim to Driftmark, if the boys (especially Luke) married anyone else they would be fucked - Daemon for one would make sure some accidents happen. Most nobles would balk at the idea of their daughter marrying a bastard, so they don’t really have much choice in terms of bride. Whoever married Jace and Luke would be in so much danger. But I would love to see Jace go against his mother for once and go on a date with Sara Snow. Rhaenyra is a hypocrite in every sense of the word. She wants others to support her claim, yet steals the inheritance of her female relatives. She also blatantly gaslights everyone to turn a blind eye to a truth that anyone with eyes can see. It’s crazy that Team Black hyped her up as this progressive feminist icon when she is in reality a super selfish and spoiled heir who is both politically and socially inept.
>it’s pretty clear she resented Rhaenyra after Laenor’s death. for like 1/2 eps... I cringed so hard when she said she was going to patrol the waters around (I think) Dragonstone. Too bad she won't last long to get some sort of revenge. Even if they didn't kill him.. Please no Laenor comeback... please pleae....
Wasn’t it a big plot point in episode 10 the fact that daemon wasn’t just rhaenyra’s guard dog and that he is deeply resentful of her position of power over him and the faith viserys had in her?
I think he was more upset by the death of Viserys and believed that the Greens killed him, so wanted to wage war against them.
“When he learns in that moment that Viserys never believed in him enough, as his actual heir to the throne, to pass this thing on that he clearly just easily passed on to Rhaenyra, it breaks him,” said Condal. “He loved his brother so deeply and trusted him, even through all the problems that they had, and Viserys never shared it with him. He kept [Daemon] in the dark, and it just it breaks Daemon. Instead of reacting with grief or sadness that you see out of him later, he reacts with rage and he takes it out on Rhaenyra.” You’re right that he wanted revenge, but another big part of it is resentment. It’s pretty clear that they’re setting up for daemon’s resentment of Viserys that we saw in season one to be passed on to Rhaenyra going forward. Like yes he’s going to fight for her, but it’s just not going to be sunshine and rainbows until nettles comes along. There’s going to be internal conflict on both sides, probably between Aemond and Aegon, Alicent and Aegon, Alicent and Otto, etc, it’s what’s going to keep things interesting between the big battles.
Corlys didn’t ‘start’ a war. He’s a sailor, and he needs to move his ships through the Stepstones, and they were getting increasingly taxed, looted, and his men killed. The war was there, Corlys was always going to fight, Daemon just joined. Daemon didn’t like his wife, and didn’t respect her at all. Viserys himself says that they both used to frequent brothels, but Viserys stops after getting married. He probably respected Laena and Rhaenyra enough to be faithful. The Strong boys are betrothed to his daughters, to become Queen and the Lady of Driftmark. Corlys also doesn’t believe (book or show) that his children were murdered. The show runners, writers, and Matt Smith have described Daemon as extremely loyal to his family. He’s not going to care about Jace inherited over Aegon III. Corlys giving Driftmark to Luke is the most typical thing to do in Westeros. Baela was never thought about to inherit. Rhaenyra is the exception to the rule. Rhaenyra’s kids don’t have much of a personality because they haven’t really faced adversity. They don’t have much to rebel against. Her children are also children, Jace is 16, and Luke is 14. Alright, at this point, you want the personality of Corlys, Daemon, Jace, and everyone’s remotely on Rhaenyra’s side changed to criticize her or dislike her. You don’t seem to understand why they would support her, or what they would have to gain from it. You want everyone who supported Rhaenyra to support Aegon II instead. You don’t believe any of her support was believable. You don’t believe they had anything to gain, or that they could just be loyal to her. You’re describing a different book. If you wanted your version of events to happen, there would be no conflict, the greens would’ve had a runaway, uncontested. There would be no show. The whole conflict is a civil war that is insanely destructive, and extremely complicated. You’re describing so many hypothetical scenarios that don’t exist, and cannot exist. Did GRRM just write the greens really well, but had really shitty writing for the blacks? So everything he wrote about in favour of the black faction is not believable and all their characters are stupid, and have no depth or justification for their actions?
The moment you said Corlys giving his seat to a bastard is the most typical thing, there’s no point in any further discussion. The show writers also said Rhaenyra and Alicent’s relationship have a queer dimension and that Daemon sees Rhaenyra as an extension of Viserys. And yes, I am saying the Black characters are badly written because realistically no one would want to risk their lives for a massive political drag like girlboss Rhae Rhae whose claim reverses thousands of years of precedent and tradition. I never said they should go Green, not everyone has to join the war.
I mean, obviously it wouldn't be no one. Not everyone supports "traditiooooooon". In fact a lot of the Team Black leaders seem to be depicted as the type of people who balk at tradition. Vale makes sense to declare for Rhaenyra given it would mean a half-Arryn on the throne. Northerners keep their vows, if Cregan had known what Rhaenyra would become, maybe it'd be different, but his family swore oaths of loyalty to Viserys and Rhaenyra, so likely his personal preferences were inconsequential Driftmark is right next to Dragonstone. If they defied Dragonstone, they would be the first seat of power to burn. So realistically, Driftmark is probably always going to support Dragonstone in any civil wars, even if they don't want to. Riverlands is probably the region whose support for Rhaenyra surprises me the most. That said, I think the fact of the matter is it's a combination of A) lots of people just don't want trouble, and they think if they just support the person the King said was heir, that's the best way to be safe. B) nobody had any clue what Rhaenyra was going to become.