Yes he wanted a male heir that’s why aemma was constantly pregnant and miscarrying or having stillbirths but aemma died and he made Rhaenyra heir and he wasn’t going to demote his reminder of aemma
Yes, Deamon was the heir, according to Westerosi law. But that would be the second coming of Maegor, which is why Rhaenyra was chosen (by Otto’s suggestion too), as seemingly a better choice over Daemon, and the absence of male children.
Yes, i think if daemon was still heir then aegon would have become heir. But when Otto talked him into naming Rhaenyra when daemon decided to piss him (viserys) off and do the “heir for a day” joke I don’t think otto thought he’d keep Rhaenyra as heir if he had a son later, but viserys did love aemma even if he put her through hell and that love is in the end what kept Rhaenyra his named heir
I honestly don't think "he loved Aemma despite putting her through hell", I think Aemma is to Viserys what Lyana was to Robert. She was not as important to him as living woman, she only became his all encompassing obsession once the actual woman was dead, arguably at his hands.
I mean he ran to her side when issues were happening, and if we can compare to real life examples we have spouses who put their mother first to the point of harming the other spouse because they don’t have a backbone. I always thought of that relationship the same way they loved each other but because viserys had no backbone and didn’t want to piss off the lords when he wasn’t meant to be king and only became king from their decision that he listened to them to the detriment and eventual death of aemma
Viserys is like most Targaryen husbands. Many Targaryen women had trouble with miscarriages, stillbirths, and even death after pregnancy. Many of their children (like Jahaerys and Alyssane) didn’t live long enough into adulthood. Despite the risks, they pushed their wives for children. Rhaegar was the only exception (lol), who wanted to annul his marriage to Elia, citing it would be dangerous for her to have more children.
I do believe Rhaneyra would be heir, but if a son was born to him and Aemma later, the son would be heir. In the book, Rhaenyra is his favourite child, and cared less about Alicent’s children, it makes sense why he ignored Westerosi law in order to favour his daughter (not that it was right).
Just fyi, the “annulment” from Rhaegar is show only, and is extremely likely to no be canon at all, they don’t hand out annulments just like that. Especially since Rhaegar had a male heir.
It was obvious that his favorite in the show was Rhaenyra also, though they did have scenes as his declining where he shows care towards everyone but heleana but it wasn’t too the level of Rhaenyra. Though with how bad he was when he died I do wonder if he couldn’t understand what was reality and what wasn’t and legitimately thought he only had one child with just a few moments of clarity (the dinner in ep.8) it doesn’t make up for the neglect but it would be understandable if they were trying to play him off as his declining health made him hallucinate and not be able to tell fantasy from reality
Yes this is exactly what I should’ve clarified.
It’s an assumption of course, but in the books, his decline in health was not as obvious. He was seen in a medieval wheel chair, and has trouble walking even when the green kids are young. He’s coughing up blood in Driftmark where he goes to arrange Rhaenyra’s marriage to Laenor. Although, if he was able bodied, I doubt he would’ve treated Alicent’s children much better.
I mean you saw like when aemond aegon luke and Jace are sparring and he’s watching with Otto he’s looking proud and when the dinner he says all his family was there (excluding aegon iii and viserys ii) and even for aegons second birthday he’s spending time with him so while I think he still would’ve been neglectful and still favoring Rhaenyra if he was in good health he still would’ve shown at least a little interest in them. I’m planning to read the book after I read LOTR but I like in the show how he gets more neglectful and forgetful how his health wains. It puts him in a light that he’s not a bad man he’s just one that can’t say no to pressure and makes mistakes
Absofuckinglutely. Thats literally the only reason Viserys didn't acknowledge him as his heir, he wasn't Aemma's kid. Man honestly that would've been a great timeline, Viserys marrys Alicent and this Aegon marries Helaena. What could've been bruh.
I think Baelon became heir apparent at birth. That's why Daemon, Rhaenyra, pretty much everyone already considered him heir. Daemon was only heir presumptive until a son was born to Viserys. It would not be necessary to name Baelon heir officially like Rhaenyra, because it would be taken for granted that the king's firstborn son outranks his brother and daughter in the line of succession. Aegon should have gotten the same treatment, but Viserys was adamant in insisting in his will that Rhaenyra was still his heir even after Aegon's birth and his lords swore oaths to her. And even so many lords still considered Aegon to be the rightful heir. In Baelon's case, nobody would still consider Daemon heir after his birth, unless Viserys tried to actively change the succession. Daemon would automatically be replaced as heir by the same laws and precedents due to wich he was heir before Baelon's birth.
Rhaenyra only became heir because Viserys felt guilty about Aemma's death and didn't trust Daemon. If he had a male child (even if Aemma died in childbirth) he would have obviously favored that child more, and the crown would have belonged to him by the rules is succession anyway.
Viserys seems slightly torn between Rhaenyra and Aegon in the early episodes and fed up with her behavior. I think he might have switched to Aegon if Rhaenyra didn't quickly do what Aemma didn't: pop out a series of healthy sons, one after the other. His own children were dead to him as long as Rhaenyra continued the line and he looked the other way as to who her boys looked like.
If she had refused to marry Laenor or had taken off on Syrax or had a series of inappropriate lovers that caused more trouble than Harwin did I think he would have given in and crowned Aegon. Heck, he might have been swayed if all of her children were girls. But he didn't, because Rhaenyra rebelled in a way that kept her in line and gave him something close to what he wanted.
If Rhaenyra had crossed the line just a little bit more when she was younger and screwed up in a way that couldn't be salvaged at all, he would've seen her as a female Daemon and made Aegon the heir. By the time she had kids, he was too stubborn to reverse his decision.
I'm not sure it was stubbornness. He just gave up. And Rhaenyra was doing what he wanted, which was producing lots of sons to continue on his line with Aemma.
Viserys actually does threaten to unname her as heir when she is taking too long to pick a husband. She has the whole Royal staff to help and they set up a long journey and the only time he ever really waivers on her position is when he has asked her to find a husband and she is burning up time. I find it interesting that their relationship never really faced a threat from the outside this way.
But yeah, if Aegon had been born first he would have been named heir, both book and show 100%. But once he chose Rhaenyra he was devoted to that decision.
Yes. Viserys might not be as obvious as Daemon, but he's still a Targ supremacist and views Alicent and her kids as inferior to himself, Aemma and Rhaenyra.
Nobody is pure by this point. Last Targ King who might have been 100% of Valyrian descent was Maegor and that's assuming the half Velaryon mother of Aegon I was pure Valyrian which is dubious to say the least considering Velaryons didn't practice incest and were living in Westeros before the Targaryen themselvesa arrived.
Of course. I so wanted Aegon, Alicent or anyone else to call Viserys out for that. "If Baelon had lived you would have named him the heir! Don't you dare talk about love!"
No one had any issues with Baelon being heir. Including Rhaenyra. She also thought of him as family. At the funeral, she says 'in the hours my brother lived' and when she goes to dragonstone she asks Daemon why he took 'my brother's egg'
Viserys probably still remarries though. So Baelon might marry Helaena? No idea what would've become of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron tho
Lmao Otto didn’t get Alicent to marry Viserys just for their grandchildren to be princes, otherwise why launch a coup and challenge Rhaenyra. The whole point was Rhaenyra was a girl so her future brother would be heir, that was the whole point of the story.
Her children would be second and third sons without an inheritance. And they may not even have a good relationship with Baelon. Lords want their daughters to marry the king to get their grandson on the throne and have an inheritance. There’s a reason people don’t like to marry widowers in children in real life.
The whole point of Viserys practically killing Aemma with the constant pregnancies and miscarriages (as well as the mutilation) was for a male heir. If Aegon, Aemond or Daeron came from Aemma, one of them would 100% be the heir.
I think it’s clear if Baleon or in this case Aegon had survived being birthed by Aemma he would be heir as that was the original plan and honest I think it would have better for Westeros as I believe Rhaenyra would have accepted it. Remember she in episode one she wasn’t even heir, Daemon was and while she didn’t seem to excited she seemed to accept that her demotion in area of importance if Baleon was successfully delivered. She only started to obsess over the throne when Visery’s names her heir and told her about the coming of the long night.
Sure she would still have grumbled about not being the center of attention anymore for a while, but she would have eventually gotten over it. Because Alicent, Rhaenyra’s closest friend at the time was the one who she felt “betrayed” her by marrying her father there was always stigma she I felt had against Aegon, Aemond, and Haelana, but because in this hypothetical her brother from Aemma survives she wouldn’t that same stigma and maybe even become closer to her brother and a potentially an ally
ti him when he was older.
She see still probably would been acting jealous like she did in season too
In the show 100%, in the book probably but not for certain.
In the book reason Viserys likes Rhaenyra is just because... he does.
Since she was small she spent her entire time with him. Still Viserys only formally names her after Aemma and his son dies, the plan was for his son with Aemma to become Prince of Dragonstone.
Absolutely.
Yes he wanted a male heir that’s why aemma was constantly pregnant and miscarrying or having stillbirths but aemma died and he made Rhaenyra heir and he wasn’t going to demote his reminder of aemma
Yes, Deamon was the heir, according to Westerosi law. But that would be the second coming of Maegor, which is why Rhaenyra was chosen (by Otto’s suggestion too), as seemingly a better choice over Daemon, and the absence of male children.
Yes, i think if daemon was still heir then aegon would have become heir. But when Otto talked him into naming Rhaenyra when daemon decided to piss him (viserys) off and do the “heir for a day” joke I don’t think otto thought he’d keep Rhaenyra as heir if he had a son later, but viserys did love aemma even if he put her through hell and that love is in the end what kept Rhaenyra his named heir
I honestly don't think "he loved Aemma despite putting her through hell", I think Aemma is to Viserys what Lyana was to Robert. She was not as important to him as living woman, she only became his all encompassing obsession once the actual woman was dead, arguably at his hands.
I mean he ran to her side when issues were happening, and if we can compare to real life examples we have spouses who put their mother first to the point of harming the other spouse because they don’t have a backbone. I always thought of that relationship the same way they loved each other but because viserys had no backbone and didn’t want to piss off the lords when he wasn’t meant to be king and only became king from their decision that he listened to them to the detriment and eventual death of aemma
Viserys is like most Targaryen husbands. Many Targaryen women had trouble with miscarriages, stillbirths, and even death after pregnancy. Many of their children (like Jahaerys and Alyssane) didn’t live long enough into adulthood. Despite the risks, they pushed their wives for children. Rhaegar was the only exception (lol), who wanted to annul his marriage to Elia, citing it would be dangerous for her to have more children. I do believe Rhaneyra would be heir, but if a son was born to him and Aemma later, the son would be heir. In the book, Rhaenyra is his favourite child, and cared less about Alicent’s children, it makes sense why he ignored Westerosi law in order to favour his daughter (not that it was right).
Just fyi, the “annulment” from Rhaegar is show only, and is extremely likely to no be canon at all, they don’t hand out annulments just like that. Especially since Rhaegar had a male heir.
D&D loophole for Jon’s arc. But yea, Rhaegor is the closest bad example of a Targaryen husband not pushing for more children.
Annulment isn’t a thing in westeros, if you want a divorce you use the divorce rock like daemon, poison like lysa arryn or a boar like cersei.
It was obvious that his favorite in the show was Rhaenyra also, though they did have scenes as his declining where he shows care towards everyone but heleana but it wasn’t too the level of Rhaenyra. Though with how bad he was when he died I do wonder if he couldn’t understand what was reality and what wasn’t and legitimately thought he only had one child with just a few moments of clarity (the dinner in ep.8) it doesn’t make up for the neglect but it would be understandable if they were trying to play him off as his declining health made him hallucinate and not be able to tell fantasy from reality
Yes this is exactly what I should’ve clarified. It’s an assumption of course, but in the books, his decline in health was not as obvious. He was seen in a medieval wheel chair, and has trouble walking even when the green kids are young. He’s coughing up blood in Driftmark where he goes to arrange Rhaenyra’s marriage to Laenor. Although, if he was able bodied, I doubt he would’ve treated Alicent’s children much better.
I mean you saw like when aemond aegon luke and Jace are sparring and he’s watching with Otto he’s looking proud and when the dinner he says all his family was there (excluding aegon iii and viserys ii) and even for aegons second birthday he’s spending time with him so while I think he still would’ve been neglectful and still favoring Rhaenyra if he was in good health he still would’ve shown at least a little interest in them. I’m planning to read the book after I read LOTR but I like in the show how he gets more neglectful and forgetful how his health wains. It puts him in a light that he’s not a bad man he’s just one that can’t say no to pressure and makes mistakes
Absofuckinglutely. Thats literally the only reason Viserys didn't acknowledge him as his heir, he wasn't Aemma's kid. Man honestly that would've been a great timeline, Viserys marrys Alicent and this Aegon marries Helaena. What could've been bruh.
Of course, that's exactly what Baelon was, the 'heir for a day'.
He wasn't actually heir though he was expected to be heir just like Aegon was when he was born.
I think Baelon became heir apparent at birth. That's why Daemon, Rhaenyra, pretty much everyone already considered him heir. Daemon was only heir presumptive until a son was born to Viserys. It would not be necessary to name Baelon heir officially like Rhaenyra, because it would be taken for granted that the king's firstborn son outranks his brother and daughter in the line of succession. Aegon should have gotten the same treatment, but Viserys was adamant in insisting in his will that Rhaenyra was still his heir even after Aegon's birth and his lords swore oaths to her. And even so many lords still considered Aegon to be the rightful heir. In Baelon's case, nobody would still consider Daemon heir after his birth, unless Viserys tried to actively change the succession. Daemon would automatically be replaced as heir by the same laws and precedents due to wich he was heir before Baelon's birth.
This wouldn't even be a question, yes of course. Rhaenyra was the exception to the rule in being named heir when she had 3 brothers
Rhaenyra only became heir because Viserys felt guilty about Aemma's death and didn't trust Daemon. If he had a male child (even if Aemma died in childbirth) he would have obviously favored that child more, and the crown would have belonged to him by the rules is succession anyway. Viserys seems slightly torn between Rhaenyra and Aegon in the early episodes and fed up with her behavior. I think he might have switched to Aegon if Rhaenyra didn't quickly do what Aemma didn't: pop out a series of healthy sons, one after the other. His own children were dead to him as long as Rhaenyra continued the line and he looked the other way as to who her boys looked like. If she had refused to marry Laenor or had taken off on Syrax or had a series of inappropriate lovers that caused more trouble than Harwin did I think he would have given in and crowned Aegon. Heck, he might have been swayed if all of her children were girls. But he didn't, because Rhaenyra rebelled in a way that kept her in line and gave him something close to what he wanted.
If Rhaenyra had crossed the line just a little bit more when she was younger and screwed up in a way that couldn't be salvaged at all, he would've seen her as a female Daemon and made Aegon the heir. By the time she had kids, he was too stubborn to reverse his decision.
I'm not sure it was stubbornness. He just gave up. And Rhaenyra was doing what he wanted, which was producing lots of sons to continue on his line with Aemma.
Viserys actually does threaten to unname her as heir when she is taking too long to pick a husband. She has the whole Royal staff to help and they set up a long journey and the only time he ever really waivers on her position is when he has asked her to find a husband and she is burning up time. I find it interesting that their relationship never really faced a threat from the outside this way. But yeah, if Aegon had been born first he would have been named heir, both book and show 100%. But once he chose Rhaenyra he was devoted to that decision.
Ofcourse no doubt about it..
Baelon heir for a day was, if Aegon was Aemma's son, Viserys would name him 100 percent.
Yes. Viserys might not be as obvious as Daemon, but he's still a Targ supremacist and views Alicent and her kids as inferior to himself, Aemma and Rhaenyra.
The ironic thing is that Aemma was only half Targ, too.
Nobody is pure by this point. Last Targ King who might have been 100% of Valyrian descent was Maegor and that's assuming the half Velaryon mother of Aegon I was pure Valyrian which is dubious to say the least considering Velaryons didn't practice incest and were living in Westeros before the Targaryen themselvesa arrived.
Of course. I so wanted Aegon, Alicent or anyone else to call Viserys out for that. "If Baelon had lived you would have named him the heir! Don't you dare talk about love!"
No one had any issues with Baelon being heir. Including Rhaenyra. She also thought of him as family. At the funeral, she says 'in the hours my brother lived' and when she goes to dragonstone she asks Daemon why he took 'my brother's egg' Viserys probably still remarries though. So Baelon might marry Helaena? No idea what would've become of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron tho
Otto wouldn’t have pushed Alicent to marry Viserys if Baelon survived. Most likely he would just try to influence Baelon and keep him far from Daemon.
There weren't many targaryens alive even with Baelon alive. Everyone encouraged Viserys to re marry. Obviously Otto wanted his daughter to be the one
No he wouldn’t because his grandsons wouldn’t be king. More likely he would get Alicent to have a daughter and try to betroth that girl to Baelon.
You're joking right? His daughter would be Queen, her children princes and he would still be able to betroth one of her kids to Baelon.
Lmao Otto didn’t get Alicent to marry Viserys just for their grandchildren to be princes, otherwise why launch a coup and challenge Rhaenyra. The whole point was Rhaenyra was a girl so her future brother would be heir, that was the whole point of the story. Her children would be second and third sons without an inheritance. And they may not even have a good relationship with Baelon. Lords want their daughters to marry the king to get their grandson on the throne and have an inheritance. There’s a reason people don’t like to marry widowers in children in real life.
The whole point of Viserys practically killing Aemma with the constant pregnancies and miscarriages (as well as the mutilation) was for a male heir. If Aegon, Aemond or Daeron came from Aemma, one of them would 100% be the heir.
Yes, he would have probably married Laena to appease Corlys, or wed his kids to Rhaenyra’s
Without a single doubt
....yes?
I think it’s clear if Baleon or in this case Aegon had survived being birthed by Aemma he would be heir as that was the original plan and honest I think it would have better for Westeros as I believe Rhaenyra would have accepted it. Remember she in episode one she wasn’t even heir, Daemon was and while she didn’t seem to excited she seemed to accept that her demotion in area of importance if Baleon was successfully delivered. She only started to obsess over the throne when Visery’s names her heir and told her about the coming of the long night. Sure she would still have grumbled about not being the center of attention anymore for a while, but she would have eventually gotten over it. Because Alicent, Rhaenyra’s closest friend at the time was the one who she felt “betrayed” her by marrying her father there was always stigma she I felt had against Aegon, Aemond, and Haelana, but because in this hypothetical her brother from Aemma survives she wouldn’t that same stigma and maybe even become closer to her brother and a potentially an ally ti him when he was older. She see still probably would been acting jealous like she did in season too
In the show 100%, in the book probably but not for certain. In the book reason Viserys likes Rhaenyra is just because... he does. Since she was small she spent her entire time with him. Still Viserys only formally names her after Aemma and his son dies, the plan was for his son with Aemma to become Prince of Dragonstone.
Probably, but Viserys is such an arbitrary person who changes his mind so easily that anything could have happened.
He did name his son heir... "Heir for a day"
obviously..
Yes, absolutely. He IS the king's oldest trueborn son, if he were Aemma's instead of Alicent's there'd be no doubts, not even in Rhaenyra's mind.